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View Full Version : Camber and tyre pressure vs. tyre temperatures telemetry



donpost
09-05-2015, 12:30
I can't be the only one who likes to mess about with the telemetry so I thought I'd put down my testing here and maybe we can share results.

When it comes to tyre telemetry the guide in the other thread mentions that the middle temperature is controlled by tyre pressure and it should equal the average of the two outer temperatures. Camber controls the difference between the inner and outer temperatures. More camber should make the inside of the tyre hotter and the outside cooler.

I did a little test on the camber:

Setting:
Donnington GP @ Light cloud
Renault Clio Cup Car
Warm up the tyres and take temperature of the front left as you cross the S/F line.

Test 1:
Standard tune except for front camber set to 0.0. After tyres heated up I recorded OMI temperatures as: 194 194 195

Test 2:
Standard tune except front camber set to maximum (-4.0?). After tyres heated up I recorded OMI temperatures as: 192 192 195

So even with no camber whatsoever the inside of the tyre was hotter.

Yorkie065
09-05-2015, 13:17
How many laps did you do? It takes a couple of laps to get the tyres up to temperature as you probably know, but you will find the more laps you do, the more the tyre temps start to differ from one another. I'd recommend doing at least 10 laps and see what kind of temps and effects you are getting from that.

Also the Clio Cup may not be the best car to test this. It's fairly soft and there is a lot of body roll compared to other race cars which could mean at times when you're really chucking it around, you're getting enough of the tyres contact patch connected to the road to keep the temperature on the outside edge of the tyre close to the inside edge. Perhaps also trying with a stiffer car like a GT3 and see what results you get from that with the same tests. Interested to what you find out.

donpost
09-05-2015, 16:37
Thanks Yorkie - I've just taken up your suggestion!


Setting:
Donnington GP @ Light cloud
McLaren 12c GT3
Warm up the tyres for 10 laps and take temperature differences of the front tyres at the S/F line.

Test 1:
Standard tune except for front camber set to minimum of -0.9. After ten laps the FL inner was hotter by than the outer 2-3 degrees, the FR inner and outer were the same temperature.
Test 2:
Standard tune except front camber set to maximum (-3.9). After ten laps the FL inner was hotter by than the outer 4-5 degrees, the FR inner and outer were the same temperature.[B]

Two things stand out for me. Even with the smallest amount of camber possible, again the outside isn't hotter. There doesn't seem to be that much difference between the two settings really. Also, Donnington is a clockwise track, and the left hand side gets worked the hardest. So if the FL shows I'm using too much camber, the FR should be even worse. But the right hand temperatures are fine.

gwr3850
10-05-2015, 13:25
I am just looking at this too. Love BTCC so clios are the closest for that.

Trying find a good setup for Donington park. It does show the FL does overheat. Particularly at the back end of the circuit between old hairpin and the esses. On PS4

I seem to experience a fair bit of understeer at old hairpin. I can hit the inside curb ok, but powering through the corner it's really hard to stop the car exceeding track limits.

Ive changed few settings and so far managed a time of 1.18.076

What can I do to improve this?

donpost
12-05-2015, 18:54
Just jumped back into the Clio to do some more testing at Brands Hatch Indy. This time looking at tyre pressure.

I ran laps in default front tyre pressure, max front pressure, and min rear pressure and compared the temperature spread of the FL tyre which is worked very hard on this layout. I waited until the tyres were showing the same temperatures at the S/F line lap after lap so I know for sure they were heated up. The result was: changing the pressure had no effect at all on the SPREAD of the temperature across the tyre. The profile was the same at all three pressures. But there was a massive difference in the overall tyre temperature:



Pressure
Stable temperature
Lap times


Min
320!
1 second+ slower


1.6 (default)
220
fastest


Max
250
few 10ths slower



So at least for the Clio it seems we can give up trying to tune pressure by looking at the temperature spread, and instead tune to find the pressure that gives the lowest peak temperature. That's only going to work for tyres that overheat though. I don't know what the best temperature is for grip - I think it changes depending on the tyre. Don't know how you'd tune the rear pressure either.

Chin
12-05-2015, 19:40
You have to be careful with the available tire temps. I believe they are actually representing the outer tread temp, not a carcass temp. As such, they are very prone to short term heating and not really the best for setting pressure/camber. I don't personally agree with that decision, but it is what it is. I don't know how to best set pressure and camber with the available info.

RayH
12-05-2015, 23:49
I think you need to review the tire temperatures currently provided. I am pretty sure they reflect outer, middle and inner carcass temps, I.e. So moving away from the contact patch vertically. The ones that you use to determine camber are the outer middle inner moving parallel to the contact patch. Those are on the 'wish' List for future implementation. Sadly they did not make the release. Hopefully soon.

Mattias
13-05-2015, 07:30
I asked in another thread about the values above the tires in the telemetry view, the 21-step guide. It mentions interior tire temp - exterior tire temp should be within 0-5C.
So how do I know which values to use for interior/exterior? Is it the inner/outer values? Interior to me sounds like the inside of the tires. As in, the place the air is at.

MULTIVITZ
18-05-2015, 03:42
You may want to produce camber thrust by squashing the outer tyre as much as possible with as much camber as needed to maintain the slip angle smaller than the rear. Getting the dampers to hold the wheel to the road helps to get this effect.

smithaldo
18-05-2015, 08:03
Seems a good a place than any to ask this as it's tire related. I'm finding that the FR tyre on almost all of the cars I used around Monza drops dramatically in temperature compared to the other 3. Can anyone suggest anything to counter this?

donpost
22-05-2015, 17:55
Seems a good a place than any to ask this as it's tire related. I'm finding that the FR tyre on almost all of the cars I used around Monza drops dramatically in temperature compared to the other 3. Can anyone suggest anything to counter this?

Sorry I didn't see your post, I though the thread had died!

I'm going to guess you are driving a RWD car. Monza is a clockwise circuit so the left have side of the car gets worked hardest. It's not so pronounced at the rear because both wheels are powered. It's normal that the FL is hotter than the FR. Yes you could play with the pressures to get the temperatures to equalise (by raising the temp of the FR rather than cooling the FL), but IMHO this is NOT what you should do. What you want is for the left and right hand tyres to be at the same PRESSURE when up to temperature. Unfortunately we can't see tyre pressure in telemetry, but we know that a hotter tyre builds up more pressure. So what you should actually do is LOWER the pressure of the FL tyre a little.

I did this on an Aston Martin GT4 car at Watkins Glen Short (another clockwise track), where the FL tyre was slightly into the red from overheating, and the FR tyre was much colder. What I did was drop the pressure in the FL by 0.1 bar. This had the side effect of reducing the working temperature of the FL tyre by 10 degrees, bringing me back into the green.

So the test above where I max/min the tyre pressure and see a temperature increase doesn't show the whole picture. Small changes can reduce temperature. I'm going to do some more testing with changes of 0.05 bar and see what happens.

Going back to your specific issue, another potential solution would be to stiffen the rear of the car and soften the front. This should have the effect of transferring some heat from your hotter FL tyre to the cooler FR tyre. I don't think the effect is particularly powerful though i.e. you will change the balance of the car a lot for very little temperature change. Again I'll need to do more testing.

dyr_gl
22-05-2015, 19:26
Same issue with Monza. I close a bit brake cooling... no effect. I hardened suspension... no effect. I added camber... no effect. Took a lot of pressure away... gained 2 degrees (but lost grip).

YouŽll have to cope with it I guess.

donpost
22-05-2015, 19:52
Did some more testing with the Aston Martin GT4 at Watkins Short. Default front tyre pressures are 1.70 bar. I adjusted the FL only (the hot one) and noted the max temperature I saw when warmed up.



Pressure (bar)
Max temp


1.50
239


1.55
233


1.60
230


1.65
246


1.70
246



Yes, there really was a massive leap between 1.60 and 1.65 pressure - I even double checked it to be sure.

EDIT: I guess it makes sense for the temp to go up wildly like that. If the pressure is too low, the tyre heats up more, which increases the pressure so it's closer to 'optimal'. Whereas if the pressure is too high, the temperature goes up, which makes the pressure go up even more, which makes the temperature go up some more...etc

MULTIVITZ
23-05-2015, 23:27
Setting the car up to reduce slip as much as possible will help, then drive carefully around all the right hand corners if you're setting up for an endurance event. The high heat may mean speeded wear, don't worry about grip until you're slidding off at corners!!

PropaneCrazy
30-05-2015, 10:54
Currently I'm test driving an LMP2 around Catalunya and I'm having a lot of difficulty with the front left wheel. The camber I was running was -1.5 and the inner wear on the tyre was very aggressive, I had my temp on 1.87 with the front right at 1.65, it looks quite a shift between the fronts on the temp but it's only about 3 or 4 degrees. So as the wear on the FL was excessive I reduced camber to 0.0. The result was the wear on the inner part of the tyre became normal just the tyre temp was higher than the rest as expected due to the nature of the track.

Is it normal to have a zero camber?

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 02:45
Lmp cars are endurance cars on a long travel setup you may want that camber. The cars have to manage thier tyre wear. Hows the tyre wear?

MULTIVITZ
01-06-2015, 11:51
Do you remeber the F1 drivers moaning about the tyres lol now I see what they mean, they like lots of air in just in case one goes off! You can see the setup when they're driving them, I'm well into it. I like to predict a poor handling one lol I'm like a sofa pit tech lol

PropaneCrazy
01-06-2015, 15:34
Lmp cars are endurance cars on a long travel setup you may want that camber. The cars have to manage thier tyre wear. Hows the tyre wear?
Depending on how aggressive I am but usually the tyre will last 5 or 6 laps before overheating. On zero camber the tyre was perfect the entire race

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 18:32
The soft tyres don't last if your on it. If the inner wheels outer tyre edge heats more than the middle just after exiting a corner its a sign that the caster is too high. After adjustment camber may have to be reset in more testing. Also when you find more grip put air in the tyres to increase the camber thrust:cool: good bumpstiffness maintains the inner tyre contact but don't go to mad with the fast bound or they will overheat very quickly! Don't worry about the cold inner tyres unless they sqirm. Braking hard will keep them warm. Just use cadence braking to brake hard early or leave the throttle on a bit when stopping. Find a rhythm and watch your telemetry until you get confident about how long they'll last. Don't doughnut it you go off and need to turn around! The medium/hard tyres ain't bad on the ones I've tried, but haven't tested lmp cars yet!?

GRD 4 3L
04-06-2015, 19:01
Taking temperature at S/F line at Brands Hatch could lead to similar temp all across.

1. It's about 10 seconds of front straight from the last corner where the temperature would even out across the tire surface.

2. Temperature spread is more pronounced on wide tires; are Renault Clip Cup tyres wide enough to show the difference?

3. One would not expect middle of the tire to sag/bulge using tires narrower than, say 255?

4. Temperature spread would be easier to read if on oval tracks but on road tracks the spread would be more difficult to assess.

5. Since real time telemetry is offered, perhaps using 'instantaneous' feedback from the screen could be more useful > using DVR function

donpost
05-06-2015, 17:41
Taking temperature at S/F line at Brands Hatch could lead to similar temp all across.

1. It's about 10 seconds of front straight from the last corner where the temperature would even out across the tire surface.

2. Temperature spread is more pronounced on wide tires; are Renault Clip Cup tyres wide enough to show the difference?

3. One would not expect middle of the tire to sag/bulge using tires narrower than, say 255?


If the temperatures shown were the surface temperature I would expect to at least see something, even on Clio tyres. I believe that the temperatures are from the carcass of the tyre rather than the surface because they don't vary too much with what you're doing on the track - their movement seems to be dampened. Also you can see your tyre can sometimes continue to heat after you have exited the corner for a moment if you have been working them hard enough. There's also the heat soak from the brakes etc. that we know is in the game having an effect.

I will definitely try again with a car with wider tyres. It's worth a shot.



4. Temperature spread would be easier to read if on oval tracks but on road tracks the spread would be more difficult to assess.


Even a large enough piece of flat track to use as a skidpan would be good enough, but I don't know of any :confused:



5. Since real time telemetry is offered, perhaps using 'instantaneous' feedback from the screen could be more useful > using DVR function


I have a copy on the PC as well as Xbox so I am lucky enough to use the awesome telemetry tool to analyse all this stuff - unfortunately the game API doesn't give out all of the tyre temperatures just yet but hopefully soon....

donpost
05-06-2015, 19:55
Ok I decided on the Audi R18 Tdi because it looks like it has pretty fat tyres. I found a bit of track at Monza which is just wide enough to drive in a circle on full lock in 1st gear lol. It was enough to heat the tyre though so all's good.

I drove in a counter-clockwise circle and watched the front right tyre heat up on the telemetry. With the default tune the inside of the tyre heated faster than the outside. Back to the garage and dropped the camber down to 0.0 on the front and went back out. The car has 6.9 degrees of caster so on full lock there will still be a lot of negative camber on the tyre, however it wasn't enough and this time the outside heated up faster.

So given a big enough skid pan we could at least set camber so the tyre heats up evenly driving a circle at a given speed. But because we know camber thrust is in the game that might not be the "right" setting anyway. It might be that just using max camber is fastest and you only turn it down if you have to worry about tyre wear.

gtz r0sh1
08-06-2015, 01:01
the best working camber atm is front: -1,5 / rear: -0,0 at every car i drove !

it sounds really crazy but as you can see in the community events were ( GTz ) very fast with that.


I think thats the reason why the temperatures are "stacked" in the telemtry,its impossible to get the same temps on -4,9 or -1,0. Also impossible to find the best pressure if the temps are not correctly shown. Lets hope they can fix that

gtz r0sh1
09-06-2015, 11:32
it is really very imprortant to fix this bug, plz

Ian Bell
09-06-2015, 12:02
the best working camber atm is front: -1,5 / rear: -0,0 at every car i drove !

it sounds really crazy but as you can see in the community events were ( GTz ) very fast with that.


I think thats the reason why the temperatures are "stacked" in the telemtry,its impossible to get the same temps on -4,9 or -1,0. Also impossible to find the best pressure if the temps are not correctly shown. Lets hope they can fix that

Mods, pass this to the team for checking please.

I know Casey responded before but 0.0 should not be the best rear setting for all cars.

gtz r0sh1
09-06-2015, 12:44
ian good to see you here,

GTz try to tune a lot and we think that is atm the best camber. Our setups for Hockenheim National and Zolder works best with that settings. Its also really hard to find the right temps cause its seems "stacked" in the telemtry.

And i have i idea to improve the whole Controller settings and setups:

We have 100 Cars in the Game. mostly Racingcars with steering like 270-360 degrees (i hope you kno what i mean) .

If you stack the steering to ,lets say, 90% of the maximum steering, you cant overdrive your tires as it happen yet !
Another very good method to decrease the overdrivin of the wheels is a "outer" deadzone of the sticks. We can adjust the "inner" deadzone ,but if we can adjust the "outer" deadzone also ,it would be much better to adjust the steering with the of any Controller on any Plattform.

We think its the best to put these settings IN the Carsetup. In this Scenario you can adjust the Controllersettings on every Car on every track elswhere you want to change it. if you think Online in the Session "wait,my steering is to flushy" you have to get out and change it ,with the "advanced" version you can do it in the lobby without any delay.


Do you know what i mean ? Is something like that possible ?

Worm
09-06-2015, 13:26
the best working camber atm is front: -1,5 / rear: -0,0 at every car i drove !

it sounds really crazy but as you can see in the community events were ( GTz ) very fast with that.


I think thats the reason why the temperatures are "stacked" in the telemtry,its impossible to get the same temps on -4,9 or -1,0. Also impossible to find the best pressure if the temps are not correctly shown. Lets hope they can fix that

Hey roshi, you also running near minimum bumps and near max rebounds as well?

I find it fastest.

gtz r0sh1
09-06-2015, 13:37
makes sence cause you try to increase the mechanic grip of the car. it should feels good and probably fast if the other settings work with that.

Worm
09-06-2015, 13:42
makes sence cause you try to increase the mechanic grip of the car. it should feels good and probably fast if the other settings work with that.

Same as Forza in this area.

DIXON76
09-06-2015, 17:48
Gtz Roshi have you tried this on the touring, i tuned one for watkins that TPR used, i started of with the cambers real low but it went better at 0.6 on the rear rather than at 0.2, i'm not sure what to make of it but 0.6 still seems low.I ran 1.0 on the front.

DIXON76
09-06-2015, 18:00
Hey roshi, you also running near minimum bumps and near max rebounds as well?

I find it fastest.Worm i'm finding the opposite mate, ask goat for them settings for that car i gave them, there running no 1s very easily. I tried everything with that tune.

donpost
09-06-2015, 19:22
the best working camber atm is front: -1,5 / rear: -0,0 at every car i drove !

it sounds really crazy but as you can see in the community events were ( GTz ) very fast with that.


I think thats the reason why the temperatures are "stacked" in the telemtry,its impossible to get the same temps on -4,9 or -1,0. Also impossible to find the best pressure if the temps are not correctly shown. Lets hope they can fix that

Just testing the rear camber with the Aston Martin GT4 at Watkins Glen GP. Definitely had more rear grip at 0.0 that at default rear camber. Weird..

Also the temperatures were being funny again. Watkins is clockwise so more right hand turns so if one of the rear tyres is going to overheat its outer edge on 0.0 it will be the left rear. But on this tyre the inside was always 2-4 degrees hotter than the inside. But on the right rear tyre the temperatures were always either even or the outside edge 1-2 degrees hotter :confused:

Umer Ahmad
09-06-2015, 19:36
Yeah that always bothered me with the right rear outer strip. Not sure what was the explanation for it. Maybe someone can find the relevant post from WMD forum and copy it here

Worm
10-06-2015, 02:40
Worm i'm finding the opposite mate, ask goat for them settings for that car i gave them, there running no 1s very easily. I tried everything with that tune.

Yeah but no one can drive your tune, Matt was spinning out......lol

;)

DIXON76
10-06-2015, 08:25
Yeah but no one can drive your tune, Matt was spinning out......lol

;)

Oh lol pls, mats been driving my tunes for years,he always says that, you know that you b#@ch lol :) for eg he said my stockcar tune was rubbish then put it no 1 by over 9 tenths on watkins, that car he was spinning out in, he put that first by 7 tenths,check mats feed,Goats got it,Davey's got it, Chems got it and Babyeater.

TheRoadRunner
10-06-2015, 14:57
I've noticed in this game that the overall tyre temperatures make a much bigger difference with the tyre pressures.
E.g. If you increase the pressure in the tyre, the overall temperature of the tyre decreases - if you decrease the pressure, the overall temperature of the tyre increases.
I can only assume this is due to the contact patch...

Anyone have any tips for decreasing tyre temps? I've tried multiple solutions but still end up with the tyre overheating

RR

Umer Ahmad
10-06-2015, 15:03
Harder compound, less "sliding" about the track, better 'balance' (if fronts overheating then install some oversteer, if rears overheating then install some understeer....get back to neutral)

donpost
10-06-2015, 21:22
I've noticed in this game that the overall tyre temperatures make a much bigger difference with the tyre pressures.
E.g. If you increase the pressure in the tyre, the overall temperature of the tyre decreases - if you decrease the pressure, the overall temperature of the tyre increases.
I can only assume this is due to the contact patch...

Anyone have any tips for decreasing tyre temps? I've tried multiple solutions but still end up with the tyre overheating

RR

Sometimes reducing pressure helps, sometimes increasing pressure helps - you just have to try both. Sometimes neither help.

Some cars let you adjust the weight distribution. If you can, move weight away from the end of the car that is overheating.


Yeah that always bothered me with the right rear outer strip. Not sure what was the explanation for it. Maybe someone can find the relevant post from WMD forum and copy it here

The same thing happens on the fronts. The inside wheel is always closer to overheating its outside strip more than the outside wheel. If there was a post on WMD I'd love to see it.

oOSGOo
17-03-2016, 14:19
Hi Greatings
here Iam new so plz help.
Car Bently Contental GT3
Track Bathurst

Experimenting with setting up the car intrested though in the Tier Temps.
What ever I do the Tire temps on the front seam to start of about 85 deg but then just consistantly lossing Temp going down to 55 degrees
on the front. Running presure is reported as 2.01bar, Any idea how to maintain and build the temps of the tires?:D

AbeWoz
17-03-2016, 14:24
lower tire pressures in the setup. takes a tad longer to get heat in them, but they retain heat longer.

also check the setup database for some car setups: http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar

Bealdor
17-03-2016, 14:25
...and make sure you're using the soft slick compound.

oOSGOo
17-03-2016, 14:30
Hi
Yes aware of pcars setups went for one but maid some changes, You say lower the presure, but by how much(ball park) to(Ball Park)
Yes a softer tire will warm up quicker. I forgot to mention this is for the GT3 Soft slick thanks for the reply

AbeWoz
17-03-2016, 14:36
i usually do increments of 0.05 and run a few laps and see where my numbers are. also what time of day and time of year are you running? obviously night time and winter months the track temps mill be lower.

oOSGOo
17-03-2016, 15:06
lower tire pressures in the setup. takes a tad longer to get heat in them, but they retain heat longer.

also check the setup database for some car setups: http://projectcarssetups.eu/#/bycar

Tire temp now sitts aroun 73 degrees presure 175 thats below the 85degrease Ive seen in other setup guides for heat.
What heat should I be looking for?
Just noticed because was told by crew chief a new app that the tires where cold.

Ive gone for perfect weather 17:00 in Jan beering in mind that bathurst is in Australia an that should be the height of the summer 1Jan

AbeWoz
17-03-2016, 15:17
you might not be driving the car fast enough. GT3 cars i try to keep tires between 90-100c

redrick
30-08-2016, 22:01
I asked in another thread about the values above the tires in the telemetry view, the 21-step guide. It mentions interior tire temp - exterior tire temp should be within 0-5C.
So how do I know which values to use for interior/exterior? Is it the inner/outer values? Interior to me sounds like the inside of the tires. As in, the place the air is at.

You don't, because that part of the HUD is busted and has been for ages. See - see https://youtu.be/QSMTaT5LdJE

Try any car, any track. Left front and Right rear show negative, Right front and Left rear positive.

Interior means that part of tyre closest to vehicle, exterior farthest from vehicle.

F1_Racer68
07-09-2016, 14:10
In the case of the "21 step guide" the references to Interior and Exterior are in fact "inside" and "outside" respectively.

They refer to the 3 sections of the tread layer as referenced from the car. "Inside" is the edge closest to the chassis and "outside" is the edge furthest from the chassis.

The 21 Step Guide was written by a non-native English speaker, so the usage of the 2 words can lead ro a bit of confusion.

As for the pCARS telemetry, the HUD values are not 100% reliable, but if you have a 3rd party telemetry app you can apply the info from there.

RomKnight
07-09-2016, 14:59
Practical pranksters this guys at Microsoft... :D