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Bounty_V
15-05-2015, 14:23
I've put a good 12+ hours into the game on PS4 so far and I'm really enjoying it! This is my first true simulator and I'm using a wheel for the first time as well. Needless to say there is a lot to get used to and I love the freedom I have to choose what I drive, how I drive it, and how tough my opponents are. I can go as in depth and realistic as I want, or as arcadey as I want. However, there is one part of this game that I don't have any freedom in whatsoever, and is inconsistent with the idea of being able to choose how real or arcadey my racing experience is - invalid lap times and next lap invalidated.

Currently under Gameplay in Options, we can toggle Flags and Penalties ON/OFF and I initially thought invalid lap times/next lap invalidated would be part of that (since it's technically a penalty). I suggest invalid lap times and next lap invalidated be included in that toggle, or to create a new toggle where we can choose to have invalid lap times be ON/OFF...for everything except Online. In things such as Practice, Quick Race, and Career I think we should have the freedom, and in Online it should remain.

Just to clarify, I do not condone cheating or cutting corners. From a beginner's perspective, I've already got my hands full getting a grasp for this game's mechanics and how to get a car around the track.

NemethR
15-05-2015, 21:05
Well, they force you to stay on the track, and that is a good thing, if you can toggle it off, it would make people assume that: "i just cut a little, its not such a mig deal", and then well, who cares, i just cut through the corner...
And then in online, they forget that there should be no corner cutting.

I would personally make it even more strict.

Bounty_V
16-05-2015, 03:21
Well, regardless of what changes, if any, are made I think players should have freedom in choosing what their racing experience should be like. Besides, in real racing you aren't punished for merely going off the track. A tire here or there or going wide or braking too late and you're not punished. No harm no foul.

berzerker777
18-05-2015, 06:06
"next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.

Psebcool
19-05-2015, 00:29
"next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.


No. It is fine like that. If you disable the "next lap invalidated", so many players will to cut in the last corner for to have a very fast speed on the next lap... No legit.

KK78
19-05-2015, 10:49
Well, regardless of what changes, if any, are made I think players should have freedom in choosing what their racing experience should be like. Besides, in real racing you aren't punished for merely going off the track. A tire here or there or going wide or braking too late and you're not punished. No harm no foul.

You are 100% right and I cannot understand those who think the current system is fit for purpose. It does not encourage cleaner racing because it is just way too severe in any sector if you so much as touch the grass/sand/gravel/some kerbs/track debris and yet there are still plenty of corners you can cut without penalty. The system is made worse by the fact you can be nudged or pushed off by Ai or other players and your lap is discounted. This is not how real racing works, you don't get a lap discounted for touching the grass. Even worse you get invalidated lap times for hitting other cars, who you can't reasonably avoid because they have spun out- here are 2 personal examples of this, one of which is on Nordschliefe where it's highly frustrating to have a broken system invalidating my lap times!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiI8z8pB88M


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS6v4ZZ4dOE

KK78
19-05-2015, 10:52
No. It is fine like that. If you disable the "next lap invalidated", so many players will to cut in the last corner for to have a very fast speed on the next lap... No legit.

But the corner cutting penalty is there for that, 5 seconds of going very slow so why is the invalidated lap needed? Most people are getting invalidated laps by going off track not getting faster times. Hell if Driveclub can police this properly then Project Cars can, in Driveclub if you cut a corner you get a penalty, if you hit a barrier it will severely limit your speed for a time but if you slide slightly onto the grass it won't invalidate your lap time- that would be stupid.

MysterG
19-05-2015, 11:06
What does an invalidated lap actually matter anyway? I don't see why it's such a problem. If you are slower going on the grass (regardless of the reason you ended up there) etc.. then the lap time is worthless anyway.

Granted the detection could be better in places, but just ranting about how it's bad is not an option, much like the chances of being able to turn off detection in the future.

If people find a corner where there are significant issues, far better to post details that the devs can use to maybe tighten things up at some point.

KK78
19-05-2015, 12:11
For me it's an issue because countless times I'll be in the zone, putting in faster and faster laps only to have it invalidated because I rode the rumble (an element used in real life to aid faster cornering) for a few inches too much on the exit of Druids, was nudged wide by an opponent at Les Combes or ran slightly wide on the 48th corner at Nordschleife! It is immensely frustrating to have to restart laps or trudge through laps in a desperate attempt to do a lap with no opponent interference, no mistakes and no random elements coming into play.

To turn it around what exactly is the point of the system, if a seperate system exists for corner cutting can someone actually tell me what is the point of the invalidated lap system, it's hardly common in real life racing and in my opinion it serves only to make the driver more tentative.

RiseOfLex88
20-05-2015, 22:50
In offline mode, i'd like to disable this option, I don't enjoy cutting corners so try my best to stay on track, but I'm always short of time when I play so having laptimes cancelled - even if I were punished by going off track - is just annoying.

RiseOfLex88
20-05-2015, 22:52
What does an invalidated lap actually matter anyway?

It's another few minutes of life wasted waiting to start a hotlap. And more time spent waiting for a race to start.

justca11mejuice
21-05-2015, 03:33
I've put a good 12+ hours into the game on PS4 so far and I'm really enjoying it! This is my first true simulator and I'm using a wheel for the first time as well. Needless to say there is a lot to get used to and I love the freedom I have to choose what I drive, how I drive it, and how tough my opponents are. I can go as in depth and realistic as I want, or as arcadey as I want. However, there is one part of this game that I don't have any freedom in whatsoever, and is inconsistent with the idea of being able to choose how real or arcadey my racing experience is - invalid lap times and next lap invalidated.

Currently under Gameplay in Options, we can toggle Flags and Penalties ON/OFF and I initially thought invalid lap times/next lap invalidated would be part of that (since it's technically a penalty). I suggest invalid lap times and next lap invalidated be included in that toggle, or to create a new toggle where we can choose to have invalid lap times be ON/OFF...for everything except Online. In things such as Practice, Quick Race, and Career I think we should have the freedom, and in Online it should remain.

Just to clarify, I do not condone cheating or cutting corners. From a beginner's perspective, I've already got my hands full getting a grasp for this game's mechanics and how to get a car around the track.


Well, regardless of what changes, if any, are made I think players should have freedom in choosing what their racing experience should be like. Besides, in real racing you aren't punished for merely going off the track. A tire here or there or going wide or braking too late and you're not punished. No harm no foul.


"next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.


In offline mode, i'd like to disable this option, I don't enjoy cutting corners so try my best to stay on track, but I'm always short of time when I play so having laptimes cancelled - even if I were punished by going off track - is just annoying.

TOTALLY AGREE with all of these comments... i get maybe an hour or two, three times a week to play... i don't have time to spend an entire night of gaming doing hot lap after hot lap of learning the track, only to have lap after lap get invalidated. i use the bumper camera, always have, so it's hard for me to tell when my wheel is toeing that line of valid/invalid. and then all of a sudden the box pops up and i curse. not fun! maybe note it as invalid, don't publish the time, but allow for the lap to be logged and the ghost created so that i can continue to improve.

hot laps are fun for me and friends from different time zones to battle it out, because it's far too challenging with our schedules to get races in online.

Noksi
21-05-2015, 05:26
Learn to respect the track limits.

An invalid lap doesn't mean you have to drive a additional lap in a race, it only means your current laptime isn't valid. We have no live marshals which can review the replay and takes decisions afterwards. There are track limits and it's 0 or 1, black or white, valid or invalid.

Why do you want to get rid of it. I don't get it, not even in offline testing. What do you want to see from a laptime where you ended up with an currently invalid laptime ? Do you want to have them still shown as best laptime, if that lap remains your fastest laptime around that track ? Think about it, it would also mean if you end up with a lap where you really cut the course it would end up being your fastest laptime for the track for ever.

MULTIVITZ
21-05-2015, 17:28
Has anyone here played Forza? It has a track limit and records even glitched laps! Basically a 2 tier system of clean and dirty lap times. Everyone gets a time. The only trouble with that game was the developers didn't listen to everyone and only listened to the loud whining ones. Consequently the hitlers put up unrealistic, anoying, lazy overly restrictive methods that hampered gameplay and couldn't detect a cars on track position fairly, sometimes wrongly. So the super clean hot lappers think driving fast is about control, they fail to understand the programming technicality of polygon position detection/ recalling, driving fast is about using all available grip from the road surface and maintaining momentum. Control is an illusion an immature driver gets obsessed with, if we had car position detection from a couple of center points the different width of cars would mean the tyres being in different places to the track. The game developers will update the dirty zones, I just hope they can keep a reasonable handle on track usage. It would be a shame to have a nice fast line cosidered dirty because a wider car went over a curb more!

PunchRockgroin
23-05-2015, 13:31
I'm also extremely annoyed by this, especially when setting up a car - I just want to see the freaking lap time. Hate that "feature"

Bounty_V
25-05-2015, 17:46
TOTALLY AGREE with all of these comments... i get maybe an hour or two, three times a week to play... i don't have time to spend an entire night of gaming doing hot lap after hot lap of learning the track, only to have lap after lap get invalidated. i use the bumper camera, always have, so it's hard for me to tell when my wheel is toeing that line of valid/invalid. and then all of a sudden the box pops up and i curse. not fun! maybe note it as invalid, don't publish the time, but allow for the lap to be logged and the ghost created so that i can continue to improve.

hot laps are fun for me and friends from different time zones to battle it out, because it's far too challenging with our schedules to get races in online.


Learn to respect the track limits.

An invalid lap doesn't mean you have to drive a additional lap in a race, it only means your current laptime isn't valid. We have no live marshals which can review the replay and takes decisions afterwards. There are track limits and it's 0 or 1, black or white, valid or invalid.

Why do you want to get rid of it. I don't get it, not even in offline testing. What do you want to see from a laptime where you ended up with an currently invalid laptime ? Do you want to have them still shown as best laptime, if that lap remains your fastest laptime around that track ? Think about it, it would also mean if you end up with a lap where you really cut the course it would end up being your fastest laptime for the track for ever.

Please read the OP again. Nowhere did I suggest the feature be removed, and this has nothing to do with 'respect the track limits'. Saying we should respect the track limits is saying we're good enough and comfortable enough with the game to be able to, at will, stay within the track at any given time. The bolded part of the quote above your post is a perfect example of why having a toggle would be useful, and provide even more freedom in a game that boasts such.

I also like the idea of allowing ghost cars to be generated regardless of lap validation.

SauRoN_ZA
26-05-2015, 09:10
No. It is fine like that. If you disable the "next lap invalidated", so many players will to cut in the last corner for to have a very fast speed on the next lap... No legit.

I agree if you were cutting the inside or something like that, but one some tracks you are actually losing time by going wide for instance and then get nailed...so you already cocked up that lap and now need to do another for that mistake.

WARDOGZ.UK
26-05-2015, 09:20
i don't mind the 'lap invalidated penalty', but what I do hate is the 'this lap and next lap invalidated' penalty, it's reall effin' annoying, I wouldn't even mind if the next lap invalidated penalty could somehow JUST be applied to the last bend of the track, but it isn't, it's for the whole last section which is just mind numbingly dumb:p

BioForce
26-05-2015, 09:30
Bounty is right. Its a kind of penalty and has to disappear when penalties are off.

PureMalt77
29-05-2015, 06:56
Punishment should only be affective if you WIN time when going out of the track, not if you lose time.
Scenario: qualifying, out of 30 cars, last chance to set a lap time set, I put 2 wheels on the grass, waste precious 2 sec (which could perhaps have put me in 15th position), but NO, lap time invalidate and I have to start last...

flymar
29-05-2015, 07:09
But "valid" lap times only matter during TT and qualify. You can still see the time in lap info?
If you think that doing the next lap is waste of the precious time in your life I don't know why you are playing the game, because it's about doing laps over and over again:)
Btw, I know about the issues in some places track limits are too hars or too loose and I think we should aim for eliminating those places and not the whole system.

Bounty_V
30-05-2015, 04:39
Bounty is right. Its a kind of penalty and has to disappear when penalties are off.


But "valid" lap times only matter during TT and qualify. You can still see the time in lap info?
If you think that doing the next lap is waste of the precious time in your life I don't know why you are playing the game, because it's about doing laps over and over again:)
Btw, I know about the issues in some places track limits are too hars or too loose and I think we should aim for eliminating those places and not the whole system.

I think there are as many opinions on how invalid lap times should work, how players should approach invalid lap times, and what penalties should entail as there are people who love and enjoy this game. I also think it's a wonderful thing to see so many people expressing theirs. My intent with this thread is aimed at the fact that being a form of penalty, it should be turned off when flags/penalties are toggled "off". I don't think this would in any way whatsoever eliminate the whole system.

ARNAGEist
03-06-2015, 14:05
What frustrates me is going v slightly wide at some long tracks say the Porsche Curves at Le Mans and having the next lap invalidated when the next lap is 20-30 seconds away, no possible chance of a cheat for the next lap at that corner.

finnerss
12-07-2015, 20:45
I am impressed by everything Project cars has been able to achieve, the balance is not easy. I hope the following helps a little bit for it not to be considered as a hollow comment, but as a respectful constructive point to be considered, at least, I'd be hopeful it may be:

I was a pro driver (Karting, Formula 3, and touring cars) since 1990 to 1998, I still go to do some track days and some laps in 125cc shifters in Mexico, and still involved in motorsports, but furthermore, in 2005, worked with ISI on a project to promote sim racing with pro drivers (GPLegacy.com) and we managed to produce some special developments with rfactor, not the regular mods you see around, but thoroughly researched and tested physics and systems that helped drivers like Memo Rojas (Grand Am), Chapulin Diaz (latest drive on ALMS, previously Grand Am and Champ Car), Checo Perez (currently F1) and pretty much the whole escuderia Telmex drivers from Mexico as well as the Mexican A1GP team in training, to this day, what we started is in place in Argentina with professional sim racing to real driving systems (www.vracer.com.ar), I was also one of the editors of review magazine Autosimsport which back in the day was the only editorial system for pro reviews of sim racing software.

I mention the above not to brag, but on the contrary, just to add my two cents to this particular point about this system of invalidated laptimes through track delimitation:

The balance of the game is so brilliantly executed that the immersion is great, until you go wide in a turn or miss a breaking point, and suddenly this piece of code (programming) breaks the immersion by reminding you on screen: "Cut Track, Lap time invalidated"... it's a complete "go back to gaming mode" sad thing...

Now, it is understandable, however, here are some points to consider:

1.- Surface and loss of grip
The game is, again, so well made, that as in real life, as a driver, you get your penalty by losing control of your car every time you lose grip with your tires, whether on a kerb, grass, dirt, or bumpy surface... This has been brilliantly achieved. In earlier games or games not well programmed, indeed, it may be an advantage or a cheat, to cut corners by doing this if the materials and objects were smooth as the track itself, but you can try this in Project cars and you will see that you will hardly ever gain time even if you do it on purpose.

Most of these objects already cause a lot of drag (slows your car) just like a sand-trap, or gravel-trap, just like it happens, so you have that as an added point, not to mention the real objects that are well positioned in the tracks that will hamper your progress as security systems (tire-walls, advertisements, etc)

2.- Loss of challenge
Contrary to what it may seem, in racing the main challenge is not to have "the cleanest, all 4 wheels on the road at all times" laps, of course it "would be" in the idyllical sense, but that's not how it works in real life when you're going for the edge, and it affects the way you will handle yourself even psychologically inside of the car -- yes, even in a game. When you're going for the fastest times and going to find the limit on a turn for instance, you will go for a further breaking point, and will miss the apex a few times, you will run wide a few times, you will probably hit too much of a kerb that will make you struggle with the car or have to compensate by countersteering, all of these are part of real life racing.

After racing for a while, I found myself not going for that edge in game, even when the AI clearly missed those points every now and then, because no one wants to see that "warning" or "words" lap after lap, even if you're not going for "lap times", it's a constant reminder that "you're doing something you're not supposed to" even if you're losing time by accident (running wide, coliding with another car, struggling in overtaking maneuvers where you may hit a kerb and for a second get off track and having to return), so you become a gamer trying to stay within the limits of the "game", not a "driver" trying to "race" to the best of your ability.

3.- Loss of atractiveness versus other software like Assetto Corsa or SimBin games
Hotlaps and going for lap times is a big part of racing, it's not just for the regular gamer, it tries to attract - and Project cars, I would say, is probably the most successful and best balanced game to do this - both gamers, car enthusiasts, sim racers, and drivers alike, so you can't take the challenge of going for lap records for granted or treat it as a "minor" feature in game:

Consider you are going for laptimes in Nordschleiffe, laps that take over 7 minutes (at best, and average over 9 to 10 minutes), where you may have a perfect lap for 19 kilometers, and you spin off in one of the turns, you still can recover in that lap, and chances are you may still get a "decent" time, even against your friends if you're playing with them at home for instance (which is something some of my racing friends, track marshals, and others do at home every now and then), and it happens with all of the guys going for "that" hotlap. Having the lap "tainted" or unregistered because out of 10 minutes, you had 1 mistake, and having to do 1 more lap of another 10 minutes... you do the math. We preferred doing the hotlaps on Assetto Corsa and get rid of the grief that feature brought on.

All in all, the game is brilliant, don't break the immersion and the great work by not making this feature not possible to toggle "off"

In terms of what I saw with some comments about "having a lap not being fair" because you "did it by cutting the track" or something that sounded like "you didn't deserve that time", well, in that case, if things are going to those extremes, those laps shouldn't count if you were racing with aids either, or with the racing line turned on, or steering aid, or even stability control, those pose a lot more advantages than a cut corner, so let's be a little more balanced in those comments ;)

Congratulations on an AWESOME and well balanced game, I hope this message helps in some way and that it can reach the right people.

Best wishes,
Sergio Bustamante
www.gplegacy.com

AngelBrow
14-07-2015, 05:28
https://youtu.be/58hJ5s3AmHQ

Should i be getting a 5 sec penalty there online?
Some areas are to extreme.

ingyom007
22-09-2015, 14:40
3 corners before the start line at Norschleife at the end of the long straight if you do a mistake your NEXT LAP TIME will be invalidated. But why? You cant get any profit from that for the next lap. Realy this is the most annoying thing in the game. Okay take my next lap time if i am out of the track at the first corner to get higher speed in the straight or something like that. But why would you take away my next lap time when i am far away from the finish line?

Kruleworld
23-09-2015, 06:09
"next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.

while i do hate it, i have to grudgingly admit it's making me a better racer

redrook
13-06-2016, 20:15
I am impressed by everything Project cars has been able to achieve, the balance is not easy. I hope the following helps a little bit for it not to be considered as a hollow comment, but as a respectful constructive point to be considered, at least, I'd be hopeful it may be:

I was a pro driver (Karting, Formula 3, and touring cars) since 1990 to 1998, I still go to do some track days and some laps in 125cc shifters in Mexico, and still involved in motorsports, but furthermore, in 2005, worked with ISI on a project to promote sim racing with pro drivers (GPLegacy.com) and we managed to produce some special developments with rfactor, not the regular mods you see around, but thoroughly researched and tested physics and systems that helped drivers like Memo Rojas (Grand Am), Chapulin Diaz (latest drive on ALMS, previously Grand Am and Champ Car), Checo Perez (currently F1) and pretty much the whole escuderia Telmex drivers from Mexico as well as the Mexican A1GP team in training, to this day, what we started is in place in Argentina with professional sim racing to real driving systems, I was also one of the editors of review magazine Autosimsport which back in the day was the only editorial system for pro reviews of sim racing software...




Nonsense. Nobody comes onto a forum with one post and throws up their racing CV. I call shenanigans.

Secondly, if you were a pro driver you would know how racing actually works, and this is not how it works. Lap times are not invalidated for skimming the edges, and next laps are NEVER invalidated. As a big motorsports fan (would you like me to submit a CV of all the racing I watch?) I've never heard of or seen this in any type of racing - other than mountain biking where you're disqualified for going through the tape and not re-entering the track at the same point, hardly applicable here.

The problem with "this and next lap times invalidated" is that you have to do the whole track again for no reason! That's especially annoying at long tracks like Le Mans. It's complete nonsense. I could maybe, maybe understand invalidating a current lap time for skipping a corner (although every other racing game ever made has sorted this by simply slowing you down for a few seconds, or making the terrain off-track "sticky" - see Forza 4). It's a pathetic, badly conceived game design and it needs to be sorted by an update pronto.

redrook
13-06-2016, 20:17
"next lap invalidated" (for running a little wide) while learning tracks is a joke.

This. I could live with current lap, but making you do the whole track over again is absolutely pointless (and completely unrealistic for what is supposedly a "sim").

Schnizz58
13-06-2016, 20:31
This. I could live with current lap, but making you do the whole track over again is absolutely pointless (and completely unrealistic for what is supposedly a "sim").
The track limits in practice sessions are pretty lenient to begin with. And who really cares if a lap gets invalidated in a practice session? For time trials and qualifying sessions I have absolutely no problem with strict track limits but it should invalidate the lap only if you gained an advantage by leaving the track.

I will grant you that the track limits are pretty strange in some places. You can get a track limit warning for running through the gravel. Who drives through a gravel trap to gain time (aside from the AI)? Hitting the gravel is its own penalty. And I have had laps invalidated for seemingly no reason when I'm sure I still had two tires on the track.

havocc
13-06-2016, 21:12
That is one thing that really makes me rage, i agree it's aboslutely necessary to avoid exploiting (like in the recent laguna seca event) but getting your next lap invalidated because you GO WIDE (no cutting) off the track 2 corners and 1 km before finish line is ridicolous

Schnizz58
13-06-2016, 22:02
That is one thing that really makes me rage, i agree it's aboslutely necessary to avoid exploiting (like in the recent laguna seca event) but getting your next lap invalidated because you GO WIDE (no cutting) off the track 2 corners and 1 km before finish line is ridicolous
Can you educate me on why it's necessary? I believe you that it is but I can see no reason for it.

havocc
13-06-2016, 22:04
Can you educate me on why it's necessary? I believe you that it is but I can see no reason for it.

just imagine cutting last 2 chicanes at le mans and crossing finish line 60-70kph faster than usual

Schnizz58
13-06-2016, 22:37
just imagine cutting last 2 chicanes at le mans and crossing finish line 60-70kph faster than usual
In that case, yeah absolutely. I was referring to your example of running wide and getting penalized. I don't see the logic in that.