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Spirit X
15-05-2015, 16:25
Hopefully this topic will benefit those like me who are primarily gamers rather than car enthusiasts. That said, I've always loved racing and I'm really loving Project CARS, so much so that I want to improve my knowledge, specifically regarding how certain setup options affect cornering behaviour. I've spent the last 3 days reading all the guides, watching all the youtube vids under the sun and playing with everything available within the game and, while I have picked up a couple of useful things, I have to say that in general I feel frustratingly none the wiser for the time I've put in.

Most recently I've been playing with the McLaren P1, so we'll go with this example. I think it's a good example because you can't adjust the springs, so a certain amount of body roll and weight transfer is inevitable while cornering. I hate this car. Just can't seem to get it setup to 'feel' right for me.

Let me try to summarise my main issue...and I suspect that this mainly applies to setting up middle-engine cars to be well balanced. So let's say we're heading into a medium speed right hander. The corner is preceded by a straight and exists onto a straight (for simplicity sake). We need to brake from 6th to 4th as we approach. We brake hard at the correct point and gradually ease of the brake as we approach the turn in point, so that as we begin to turn in, there's a brief moment when we are applying gentle braking and turning in at the same time. This is how I learnt to handle MR cornering on Gran Turismo back in the day. GT taught me that for MR cars, there's a cerain point of balance while cornering that, if found, rewards you with great cornering speed. It's this point of balance that I just can't seem to find in pC.

So now we've turned in to our right-hander and my expectation would be that the act of turning in would push the weight to the outside of the car but that doesn't seem to happen straight away. What happens is that the weight actually seems to go to the inside (I know it's not logical but that's how it feels) as our car turns in beautifully, the front-right wheel is heading perfectly for the tip of the apex and all's well.....and then wham, the weight suddenly bounces back to the outside, pushing the car wide around the corner. I don't know any of the technical terms for these mechanics btw so perhaps one of the experts can fill me in on the correct vocabulary. I know there are 'bump' and 'rebound' settings but I'm still not to sure which part of the cornering process each one really refers to.

Now on other cars, such as the Pagani Huyuauauau or whatever it's called, I was able to lessen the affect by lowering the ride height and tightening up the springs but I suspect that's more of a band-aid fix that I use because I don't really understand how to use the slow/ fast bump/ rebound settings. Either way, those fixes can't be used with the McLaren so here we are.

I guess what I want to know is, is the 'bounce-in bounce-out' behaviour that I describe a result of bad cornering technique on my part, less than optimal car settings or is it just part of driving that you have to get used to? I'm sure that in Gran Turismo there was a method of applying the right amount of power just before the 'bounce-back' that would hold the car in perfect balance around the corner and seemed to stop the bounce-back occuring, but I really can't seem to find it here. What I've found particularly frustrating is that even when I set all the bumps and rebounds to the extremes for the sake of experimentation, I still can't really feel much difference. What I do know for sure is that once it bounces back the result is always the same, lots of understeer :(

I've experienced this issue with so many cars that I'm determined to figure it out. Any help would be much appreciated although please bear in mind that I'm no expert on the anatomy of correct technique and setups so please go easy on me.

TLDR: I suck.

AshenShugar
15-05-2015, 16:36
Yikes the P1 tbh if you want to understand how setups affect a car use a proper racing car.

Ok to explain bump and rebound bump the the travel upwards, rebound is downwards. then you have fast and slow setting. Fast is for things like bumps in the road or sawtooth curbs. So if you are on a track with lots of sawtooth curbs you will need to adjust you fast bump and rebound. the main aim it to have the tire in contact with the surface as quickly as possible, thus you have traction.

Slow is for weight transfer side to side front to rear acceleration braking and cornering.

Hope this helps a bit.

ReddSteele
15-05-2015, 16:58
It sounds like we're in about the same boat. I'm a Sim newbie and have been working on stuff like this too. I really dialed in my FFB settings first before anything else. I really had to fine tune SoP and the Body effects so that I could feel what the rear end was doing. Maybe you're having trouble 'feeling' that point. I would also just mess with braking and gas technique before getting into the setups. I'm 100% more gamer than racer, so I just found out from an Empty Box video that depressing gas and brake simultaneously to control weight transfer was a thing. I'd just keep hitting that corner repeatedly in a practice session and do various approaches with gas/brake until you find the right approach, then hone in with vehicle tuning after that. Good luck!

Ramshackle
15-05-2015, 17:28
I see so many people who are trying to get to grips with the game going way too fast into corners. It's much better to approach corners with a little too much caution and learn you can carry a little more speed through next time, than it is to approach way too fast and figure out how much you need to slow down in order to stop crashing/falling off the track. It can make the difference between losing one or two places/seconds or losing 10 places/seconds. The first method definitely helps you learn new tracks much quicker too.

o Mike V o
15-05-2015, 17:34
I don't have much knowledge in tuning, because I always used other people's setups in Forza. All I can say is its all about carrying your momentum through the corner,and the shortest route through a corner isn't always the fastest. And from my experience in other racers the driving line isn't always the ideal line either although its really handy when you want to learn the tracks.

Spirit X
15-05-2015, 21:19
I'm definitely going for the slow-in-fast-out approach. Been doing that for years. Does anyone have any insight on the weight bounce issue from the OP please?

Umer Ahmad
15-05-2015, 21:25
I'm definitely going for the slow-in-fast-out approach. Been doing that for years. Does anyone have any insight on the weight bounce issue from the OP please?
I think it's this: "less than optimal car settings"

you have to first see if the suspension is Helping or Hindering your cornering efforts. Does the whole suspension stack want to unwind mid corner or on a bump? Soften it. I do this with some cars, nothing wrong with that. The faster guys can run harder suspensions and lower heights. That's fine. My goal is to finish mid-pack and remain in control at all times. Usually i get the job done.

Mr Akina
15-05-2015, 21:35
I don't know any of the technical terms for these mechanics btw so perhaps one of the experts can fill me in on the correct vocabulary. I know there are 'bump' and 'rebound' settings but I'm still not to sure which part of the cornering process each one really refers to.

The bump/rebound settings refer to the suspension as AshenShugar described. However, your problem is more to do with tyres and tyre-wall flex. I've experienced this in real life, but never in a game. Marangoni sent me some tyres to test (ones that were used in the RX8 series in Italy) and they had a very similar feel. You had to 'set' the car for the corner as it almost took two stabs at turning in.

You can also get the same feeling as the car pushes to the outside under power, almost like power-understeer. This can be dialed out by adjusting anti-roll bars - don't ask me how as engineering like that is a dark art to me. I have found balancing the throttle/brake better reduces the effect - get quicker and smoother at transferring from the brake to the gas. This game isn't easy, so don't be too disheartened.

Gordon
15-05-2015, 22:29
The bump/rebound settings refer to the suspension as AshenShugar described. However, your problem is more to do with tyres and tyre-wall flex. I've experienced this in real life, but never in a game. Marangoni sent me some tyres to test (ones that were used in the RX8 series in Italy) and they had a very similar feel. You had to 'set' the car for the corner as it almost took two stabs at turning in.

You can also get the same feeling as the car pushes to the outside under power, almost like power-understeer. This can be dialed out by adjusting anti-roll bars - don't ask me how as engineering like that is a dark art to me. I have found balancing the throttle/brake better reduces the effect - get quicker and smoother at transferring from the brake to the gas. This game isn't easy, so don't be too disheartened.

This! get more familiarity with the car and try mastering it as is b4 changing setup too much (not meaning to sound critical).

ibby
15-05-2015, 23:35
I think we might need a video with the telemetry screen on to see your inputs.
Otherwise it's hard to say what you're trying to dial out. And wether it's your driving, the car setup or both.
My wild guess would be you need stiffer swaybars in general ?
Mid corner problems are usually helped by stiffer front sway bar and stiffer springrates in general.
Then readjust the shocks after you're happy with your car mid corner.

NXP3
16-05-2015, 00:56
Hope you don't mind I hop on this thread. Anyway, I like driving games, but I'm no expert and I feel very intimidated by people who wants to race a perfect game without crashing and what not. I would love to not have any mishaps with people, but I just can't guarantee that. Where can I find some fun racing games for people who aren't gonna get pissed at me if I accidentally ram them from behind?

Bkim
16-05-2015, 02:01
What happens is that the weight actually seems to go to the inside (I know it's not logical but that's how it feels) as our car turns in beautifully, the front-right wheel is heading perfectly for the tip of the apex and all's well.....and then wham, the weight suddenly bounces back to the outside, pushing the car wide around the corner.

If i may ask, you write you're heading for the apex and what do you do that causes the weight shift? Do you apply throttle or are you still on the brakes or none of both?

Spirit X
16-05-2015, 04:10
If i may ask, you write you're heading for the apex and what do you do that causes the weight shift? Do you apply throttle or are you still on the brakes or none of both?

For a majority of corners it's shortly after I release the brake fully, which is also a brief moment after I apply the throttle a lot of the time.

I've been experimenting more this evening though and now I'm starting to suspect that it could be the result of me not breaking gently enough just before I release the break. So in effect I'm turning in with something like 50% brake (which should probably be more like 10%), then releasing the brake causing the car to snap back to the outside as the weight shifts. I need to look at some telemetry. I really should've thought of that sooner.

It does however happen mid corner sometimes too though, so the braking thing can't be the whole story. I wonder if it could be some kind of stability control actually. Perhaps it doesn't like me losing traction as the back comes out a little, so it snaps me back to full grip, almost like it thinks it's saving me from a spin, which then means I have to have a second stab at the corner. If that were the case though, I'd expect it to be a more widespread issue among players. I've turned down the LSD and turned up the slip control (so it allows plenty of slip) for a raw feel though and I'm not sure how to tell if the P1 has any other assists on. My assist setting is Real. I'll have to try a run with it set to None.

As a previous poster mentioned, if it's still just as mysterious tomorrow, I'll make a vid with some telemetry and see if that sheds any light on it.

Thanks for some useful posts guys, it's given me a couple of ideas to try out.

Spirit X
18-05-2015, 10:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM0W9HAwOIc

Have still been trying to analyse the problem and have made this vid with three examples of the corner issue (the vid is with the McLaren 12C GT3 as I have just signed up to race it for my next season).

Going through it very slowly, I've noticed that in these examples the outside-rear tire loses grip very briefly as I accelerate (i.e. the number under the wheel display goes down to about 30)...which is probably bad. Thing is, surely a loss of grip at the rear should cause oversteer, not understeer? Confusing. Either way, I still haven't been able to figure out why it happens or how to remedy it. Looks to me like the weight transfer is happening nicely (judging by the G meter) and the only other thing I've noticed is that the little horizontal white bar at the top of the suspension meter for the outside-front tire often turns red during the corner. I'm assuming that red probably means bad but I can't find any info on what exactly that bar is telling me.

Also, can anybody please offer some detail regarding how I should be utilising the BUMP, TRAVEL and HEIGHT data? It feels logical to me that the fact that I have a bigger TRAVEL than HEIGHT suggests that the suspension may be set up badly but I'm just guessing. It's really hard to diagnose an issue without understanding the implications of all the data present.

One good thing though, I've at least established that the issue occurs when I apply the throttle during a corner. Problem is that the it seems to happen quite randomly and as far as I can tell, it's not really related to how gently the throttle is applied.

Experts, please HELP! (and thanks for any you're able to provide).

ibby
18-05-2015, 12:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM0W9HAwOIc

Have still been trying to analyse the problem and have made this vid with three examples of the corner issue (the vid is with the McLaren 12C GT3 as I have just signed up to race it for my next season).

Going through it very slowly, I've noticed that in these examples the outside-rear tire loses grip very briefly as I accelerate (i.e. the number under the wheel display goes down to about 30)...which is probably bad. Thing is, surely a loss of grip at the rear should cause oversteer, not understeer? Confusing. Either way, I still haven't been able to figure out why it happens or how to remedy it. Looks to me like the weight transfer is happening nicely (judging by the G meter) and the only other thing I've noticed is that the little horizontal white bar at the top of the suspension meter for the outside-front tire often turns red during the corner. I'm assuming that red probably means bad but I can't find any info on what exactly that bar is telling me.

Also, can anybody please offer some detail regarding how I should be utilising the BUMP, TRAVEL and HEIGHT data? It feels logical to me that the fact that I have a bigger TRAVEL than HEIGHT suggests that the suspension may be set up badly but I'm just guessing. It's really hard to diagnose an issue without understanding the implications of all the data present.

One good thing though, I've at least established that the issue occurs when I apply the throttle during a corner. Problem is that the it seems to happen quite randomly and as far as I can tell, it's not really related to how gently the throttle is applied.

Experts, please HELP! (and thanks for any you're able to provide).

Why do you go 75% throttle BEFORE the corner apex and after braking ?
And then lift off the throttle totally again.

Stay off the throttle after braking and slowly go on it only once you know you'll make it.

In the 2nd part you go into 1st gear. That's not really a first gear corner. ;)
3rd part also one gear too low. You're taking all the momentum out of the car.
You're also going off and on throttle way too fast shifting the weight and contact patch of the tyres rapidly etc.
Drive smoother, stay one gear higher stay off the throttle mid corner.
Under braking you can stay on throttle for like 5% if you want and then go off it the same time as releasing the brakes, that will give you more stable braking and a bit more control over turn in.

Wouldn't think about setup before driving better imho. :)

Spirit X
18-05-2015, 13:15
I appreciate the advice and I think you're right but I also think you missed the point of the video. The reason I'm on the throttle and then have to let go again is because of the issue demonstrated in the video. I would love to squeeze it down and hold it there but doing so bounces the front end away from the apex, forcing me to either ease up or go off the course.

I understand it may well be an issue with me being too aggressive as I apply throttle, but if that were the case I would expect it to happen all the time rather than being seemingly random.

Also, the issue can occur with no throttle at all. Sometimes you can brake into a corner and let it coast toward the apex only to have the front end bounce out, as in the video. It's very odd.