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townnet
15-05-2015, 16:56
This guy sounds like pcars not a sim, i'm not good in listening english, can someone tell me why he say pcars not a sim?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtvFNKmS3qs

He also write some description...

ublished on May 15, 2015
Some more stuff is in this description so you might want to check it. Wonder why I don't mention MP or Audio? Explanation below.

Graphics setting comparisons :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdUmh...

Jack Spade FFB Tweaks :
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/show...

Why not mention MP? It's a lobby system, no dedicated servers. So naturally... results are gonna vary.

Audio runs a wide range from poor to solid. In particular, I feel like a lot of sounds are just poorly mixed - super mega loud (and terrible sounding) bottoming out, blow off valves that are louder than a P1 engine... Lots of distortion. That one last point is why I didn't mention it - some people really like that, some don't. I don't, but whatever.

AMD performance from what I've heard is abysmal. I'm on "Team Green" right now so I can't comment directly, but it's worth checking into if you are using an AMD GPU.

I've also heard that controllers are really, really, really finnicky and often poorly utilized - need tweaking to get it right. Again, can't comment on that directly.

AI performance is laughable, it's bad enough that it really is no better than Assetto Corsa. AC AI doesn't try and pass enough, PCARS AI will kill you. I'd rather not have my exhaust pipes violated - it is that incredibly frustrating.

In particular, the first lap behavior is lulzy. I can reliably pass 6 cars on standing starts on max difficulty. This doesn't even include the inevitable AI crashing into one another or missing the apex entirely. (Protip : ALWAYS get to the inside of T1 in advance, it's easy pickings and much safer than the outside as the AI ALWAYS understeers in T1)

Also : you can jump starts by a good bit without punishment. It makes qualifying mostly useless and is a pretty hilarious thing for a racing game to have bugged. But that will surely be patched.

PeteUplink
15-05-2015, 17:16
The game has a few issues at the moment. But IMO PCars is a sim. The big question is whether or not it is a realistic sim. It's certainly more realistic than the likes of Forza and any of Codemasters racing titles.

townnet
15-05-2015, 17:26
You didn't tell me yet what make him say pcars is not sim?

Dreco
15-05-2015, 17:46
Stopped listening when he said Forza and GT are hardcore sims.

PeteUplink
15-05-2015, 17:50
I don't know. I can't read minds. Why does his opinion that it's not a sim matter so much? I do think there is a certain snobbery being aimed at Project Cars by certain members of the PC gaming community because it's not a PC exclusive and has been released on consoles. Now as every good, fully paid up maner of the PC Master Race fanclub knows, consoles can't do simulations, so any game released on a console, even if it's also been released on PC, is automatically not a sim.

jgaganas
15-05-2015, 17:56
You didn't tell me yet what make him say pcars is not sim?

He didn't said that, he said it's not a ultra-hardcore-sim.

It's Mr. Box (Empty) by the way.

Basically he concluded: It's a 7 out 10 Racing Game/Sim (instead of 8.5 out of 10) because of the current AI behavior.

Pro: GFX, Weather-System, Options, Force-Feedback, Decent Physics
Con: Career (no unlock/no grind design), AI (for a single-player-centric game/sim)

jgaganas
15-05-2015, 17:57
Stopped listening when he said Forza and GT are hardcore sims.

He didn't said that. He said they are "hardcore racing games".

menaceuk
15-05-2015, 18:01
The video makes me laugh. He craps all over the A.I and yet the A.I is crushing him in the gameplay, lol.

Cully
15-05-2015, 18:02
Stopped listening when he said Forza and GT are hardcore sims.

He didnt say that he said they were harccore racing games and not anywhere near racing sims, i dont know which is funnier your bad hearing or those liking what you think he said.

Cully
15-05-2015, 18:04
The video makes me laugh. He craps all over the A.I and yet the A.I is crushing him in the gameplay, lol.

lol and to you that makes AI good?

menaceuk
15-05-2015, 18:06
I don't know. I can't read minds. Why does his opinion that it's not a sim matter so much? I do think there is a certain snobbery being aimed at Project Cars by certain members of the PC gaming community because it's not a PC exclusive and has been released on consoles. Now as every good, fully paid up maner of the PC Master Race fanclub knows, consoles can't do simulations, so any game released on a console, even if it's also been released on PC, is automatically not a sim.

Race Pro 07 was awesome on the Xbox 360.

There is also a rumour that Asseto Corsa is coming to consoles.

Wish Simbin would bring out a GTR3 or something on console.

menaceuk
15-05-2015, 18:07
lol and to you that makes AI good?

One of his complaints is they do not overtake enough, you know why, cause they are all in front of him :D

In all seriousness, no, I don't. I just found it funny that the poor A.I is still crushing him.

DoodlesSWE
15-05-2015, 18:10
He didn't said that, he said it's not a ultra-hardcore-sim.

It's Mr. Box by the way.

Basically he concluded: It's a 7 out 10 Racing Game (instead of 8.5 out of 10) because of the current AI behaivor.

Pro: GFX, Weather-System, Force-Feedback
Ok: Physics
Bad: Career (no unlock/grind design), AI (for a single-player-centric game/sim)

I think EmptyBox actually broke down what the problems with this title is quite good. pCars is not the next iRacing, rFactor or as the PC elite simmers want to call them hardcore sims, but neither did it make itself out to be that. pCars is dialed down, more accessible, lets say an entry point sim for the people that wanna play and be reasonable successful, without spending hundreds of hours to learn racecraft, or spend thousands of hours learning to drive and be in the Pro series or even A series of iRacing. it's a black hole that needs to be filled, it only contain two titles Assetto Corsa and Project CARS.

And i agree with him on the statements he made about the AI, it is really gamebreakingly bad, and needs to be fixed.


One of his complaints is they do not overtake enough, you know why, cause they are all in front of him :D

In all seriousness, no, I don't. I just found it funny that the poor A.I is still crushing him.

He comes in at a podium finish at 100% AI settings while starting last, so what are you talking about? post a video of you doing that, put your money where your mouth is.

Cully
15-05-2015, 18:15
it's a black hole that needs to be filled, it only contain two titles Assetto Corsa and Project CARS.

Assetto Corsa is a full on sim in the mould of iracing rfactor2 and GSCE, PCARS is as you describe it but Assetto certainly is not.

townnet
15-05-2015, 18:21
I don't know. I can't read minds. Why does his opinion that it's not a sim matter so much? I do think there is a certain snobbery being aimed at Project Cars by certain members of the PC gaming community because it's not a PC exclusive and has been released on consoles. Now as every good, fully paid up maner of the PC Master Race fanclub knows, consoles can't do simulations, so any game released on a console, even if it's also been released on PC, is automatically not a sim.Rfactor is last gen pc they label it sim, now ps4 xbone hardware is more power than that, didn't get it why they still label console race game is not sim? I think they are jealous because console user no need build a high end pc and they can play it...Don't get me wrong, i'm not console fans, i play pcars on my pc. :)

MaXyM
15-05-2015, 18:26
Stopped listening when he said Forza and GT are hardcore sims.

You're fault. Listening till the end might give some light on that.
IMO he judges the title by it's playability. So it looks like simulation for him doesn't mean ability to properly simulate physics only, but to simulate real world including everything which happens during racing events.
I managed this after his complains about career or AI playability.
And to be honest I have the similar feeling even I'm not driving single player at all. To me, being in this game, I cannot feel atmosphere of racing. I cannot feel to be a part of racing event.
Frankly I do it in such old/simply title like rF. To me lack of formation laps, out lap after race, sitting on the track instead of lobby, all this 'select, load, play, unload... forget'-approach takes away the whole atmosphere of racing, meeting racing fellows, competing with them.

Maybe this is what he wants to share.

legendm0de
15-05-2015, 18:27
Apparently he has never read a preview of this game, he is shocked that career mode isn't so deep.

His review is even hard to understand for someone that speaks his english, because his criteria to judge this game should primarily rest on his opinion of car handling, on track physics. That's the shortest part of his video, and he say's he's impressed by it but doesn't feel like it is a perfect replication. He mentions, he hates road cars but doesn't mention why except that he hates racing in them because they have stability control. That is confusing, road cars typically have stability control and antilock brakes, etc but this game also allows you the option to turn it off. Which does make a grand difference, I have raced nothing but road cars for two days on this game, so I've seen alot in the characteristics about them. This section of his review, which should have been the most important is just confusing because there is not much detail and example.

He loves the weather and his second favorite is the forced feedback. His worst opinion is of the AI at 100 because they are not fast enough, but when I watch his video he does drive fast but he also drives reckless like he is an impatient and wants to finish a 5 lap race in 1st place. Either way, I don't drive as fast as the fastest players so I guess for me the AI will be at least okay. He also says the cars do not drive properly in the rain but he does not say why, and which cars. His review is not that good, and it's not because I support the game. I'm neutral in my favor of this series for now. But his review has some information but overall is a waste of time.

MikeyTT
15-05-2015, 18:32
I had this on in the background, but I think the biggest disappointment for me is how he keeps pushing that having the cars/tracks unlocked is such a bad thing.

When the discussion around this was going on it was a very clear direction from the community that the likes of FM, GT and other titles where you have to unlock content is a big turn off in a game, and for many people you never get the chance to experience LMP, FA(1), or other disciplines because of the amount of time you have to invest to get to that level. I for one don't get the chance to spend a lot of time racing, and I have probably 40% of FM5 content still locked on my XB1, some 18 months or so after release, as I just haven't had the time to invest and get it unlocked.

The aggressive AI is fair enough, that's something I'm sure they will tone down (last of the late brakers is an understatement). But to say don't buy and wait for a bargain bin (paraphrase) is a little harsh. Of all the other PC sim titles I've played, this is the only one that I feel connected to the car, where you stop driving a game and you're concentrating on the race, or the times. I'm sure the Fanatec kit helps a lot with that, but even compared to AC and rFactor2, my previous go to games, they are really lacking as an overall package.

DeBuG
15-05-2015, 18:45
I kind of agree with him regards the sound issues, it's very frustrating when the sound does distort and break up... But again hey, the game is stunning, the detail and environment is beautiful. They've done a fantastic job, and I hope they continue to do the fantastic job.

DoodlesSWE
15-05-2015, 18:50
Assetto Corsa is a full on sim in the mould of iracing rfactor2 and GSCE, PCARS is as you describe it but Assetto certainly is not.

Not starting this discussion again. believe what you want about AC, it's irrelevant.

townnet
15-05-2015, 18:59
I kind of agree with him regards the sound issues, it's very frustrating when the sound does distort and break up... But again hey, the game is stunning, the detail and environment is beautiful. They've done a fantastic job, and I hope they continue to do the fantastic job. I really hope they will fix the sound and AI.

ctd
15-05-2015, 18:59
I just can't understand this Empty Box guy. He's talking very much, repeating himself now and then, to recordings that don't seem to have any relevans to what he says. For example his complaints about the AI. As I can see it he is the one using the AI as brake barriers and pushing them out of track in the recordings. They respond very respectfully to his driving and during the recording I never saw any of the AI behave like what he is complaining about. On the contrary I get the feeling he's the one that uses his car like a dive bomb and that, if I were a AI driver, I should have to take special notice of him in the mirrors. :p

Patrik Marek
15-05-2015, 19:00
it's funny that in his previous video where he was doing GT3/GT4 race on zolder, he was saying that AI is pretty good, competitive and really fun to race with.

also about the physics, if the setup is done in a accessible manner, so that the car is easier to drive for most people, is things like these that make pCars less of a Sim ?
there are cars that behave not so great, but which so called hardcore sim doesn't have such cars ?

I think if you take best cars in pCASR ( LMP2, GT3 or openwheelers) it's on par with those of rFactor, Assetto corsa.

but anyway, this discussion won't lead to anything good, since opinions vary too much

jgaganas
15-05-2015, 19:23
Well, it's fun to race with (as long you have realistic-damage off or visible only) ;)

He's got a valid point there... Speed isn't so much of a problem (for me; and car/track dependent)

LordDRIFT
15-05-2015, 19:27
lol and to you that makes AI good?

People forget what the "I" means...

Neil Bateman
15-05-2015, 19:30
I dont think the AI are that bad, if you use 100 % setting of course they are going to get aggressive because the aggression will be at its maximum.

One of the reasons i have to use 100% is because on most of my favorite tracks there are corners where they are just too slow, this is very much the case on the nordschleife, but as has been mentioned before if you race them like you would a human they seem to race better, they do give you room and they do give you the corner, obviously thats not every single time but most of the time.
On many other racing titles you still get rammed the same in braking and regardless of how well your attempted pass is executed the AI always take their racing line and never concede a corner unless you foce them off track.

yusupov
15-05-2015, 19:53
he mentions road cars feel as if they have stablity control; a lot of them do (with assists set to real)! its not exactly obvious though...

anyway i didnt watch most of this, some of what i heard i just disagree with (ability to skip around in career makes it pointless, this is a forza kiddie complaint to me, learn a little self control maybe?), the default ffb being great (imo its mediocre, idk how he gets a SCE comparison, & ive heard the same complaints from csw v2 users i hear from logitech users, no road feel, etc -- unless by 'default' he meant jack's tweaks, but p sure he didnt). hes right about sound being a real sore point. numerous ppl say AI is problematic, ive had some good races but i will say i just did a race in SCE & its...definiitely a different ballgame, you really dont have to worry about the AI. after racing exclusively in pCARS for a few days it was weird to not have to restart or have a single rage moment, the AI drive superclean & responsible. so i do hope AI is improved, but at my level, i seem to be able to make it work & have had some very good races.

not sure why he puts in w/ forza & GT, again i havent played those, but imo this is a full sim, every bit the sim assetto corsa or (yep) game stock car extreme is, but those are sacred cows, you cant say that. :) (ironic bc according to its detractors pCARS is the sacred cow against which all criticism is considered a personal attack)

Sampo
15-05-2015, 19:54
Wish Simbin would bring out a GTR3 or something on console.

Blimey! Games (now SMS) made GTR2 so this is GTR3 for you. :)

menaceuk
15-05-2015, 20:02
Blimey! Games (now SMS) made GTR2 so this is GTR3 for you. :)

It was Blimey Games & Sector 3 who made it, Sector 3 is Simbin, right? Anyway, I just more:D

zorranco-
15-05-2015, 20:15
It's laughable how people blame about simulation and play with traction control on. In the video, he's driving under rain with 4x times the grip I have in dry with TC off :D hence totally unrealistic...

Turn it off, and you will say welcome to a thing much more close to reality....

You may state that cars have TC on in real life....problem is TC in games don't behave as they should, and makes the driving much more arcadish.

Read

http://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/1xlceq/real_life_assists_vs_ingame/

If you have TC on, how do you know you are still on track in a given turn...It is because your skills, or the electronics? Learn your limits

Sankyo
15-05-2015, 20:18
The definition of 'simulation' is one of the most vague things in the known universe. Also pre-occupation, fanboyism and mistaken physics expertise influence people's judgment of sim-ness for a great deal.

Hence, if someone writes down a true sim/no sim judgment (or anyting in-between), it doesn't mean anything until that person specifically writes down his 'sim-ness' criteria. And if he has done that, you can judge whether they are criteria that you agree with from a sim/no-sim point of view, or that you have different criteria.

Iwanchek
15-05-2015, 20:23
the game have issues now, right but to me the game feels like GT, with better graphic, but i love GT, sooooo....

must agree with the line that the AI is just stupid and the career is bit pointless but overall the game have potential!

unknwn
15-05-2015, 20:28
I am driving without assists (sometimes ABS) and heavily modified setups (less rear aero, more tail happy/edgy and etc) and I find pCars physics to be "easier" than rf2/gsce or AC. Dampened I would say, seems like car reactions are slower/not edgy/filtered. You can survive with pretty sloppy reflexes while at the limit of the car. Many cars feel like they have some additional stability control (compared to other sims). Often after you start spinning/sliding and go totally sideways (like 90° sliding angle) cars magically want to align the front and often they succeed and you only need to step of the throttle, which is weird and not seen in other sims. In other sims you would do 180-360° spin or even worse while in pCars you do 4 wheel slide like a madman and your front continues to realign(even thought slide angle is way above your front wheels maximum turn angle).

zorranco-
15-05-2015, 20:44
This effect is maybe too noticeable, but I prefer it to the "skating script mode" you enter when you lose grip in assetto corsa, or other sims...In AC a lose of control is always you getting off the track, no chance to correct the path...

You are suposed to drive cars with big spoilers that do big downforce....I think the problem is that we always associate difficulty with simulation...you would be surprised how easy this cars are to drive (and go fast) in real life, and how easy is to correct an slight over or understeer by only stepping up the thottle...

unknwn
15-05-2015, 20:49
This effect is maybe too noticeable, but I prefer it to the "skating script mode" you enter when you lose grip in assetto corsa, or other sims...In AC a lose of control is always you getting off the track, no chance to correct the path...

You are suposed to drive cars with big spoilers that do big downforce....I think the problem is that we always associate difficulty with simulation...you would be surprised how easy this cars are to drive (and go fast) in real life, and how easy is to correct an slight over or understeer by only stepping up the thottle...
Naah. pCars tire model might be more advanced and more dynamic (I actually like it) however even real life vidoes shows drivers performing cat like reflexes to control the edgy cars. In pCars I haven't managed to find a car or a setup which gives you that fast responses (I am not saying there are no hard cars to drive in pCars, I am saying that speed of the reactions feels dampened). I don't know if its the FFB, physics or something else.

Also you mention that it's easy to correct slight oversteers (I don't doubt it), while I am talking about going totally sideways and the car realigning itself.

zorranco-
15-05-2015, 20:58
It is true that I feel that most cars understeer too much and prevents you doing quick responses, like you can see videos in real life...

unknwn
15-05-2015, 21:04
It is true that I feel that most cars understeer too much and prevents you doing quick responses, like you can see videos in real life...
Sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajN5fVVOLOw

Patrik Marek
15-05-2015, 23:08
I am driving without assists (sometimes ABS) and heavily modified setups (less rear aero, more tail happy/edgy and etc) and I find pCars physics to be "easier" than rf2/gsce or AC. Dampened I would say, seems like car reactions are slower/not edgy/filtered. You can survive with pretty sloppy reflexes while at the limit of the car. Many cars feel like they have some additional stability control (compared to other sims). Often after you start spinning/sliding and go totally sideways (like 90° sliding angle) cars magically want to align the front and often they succeed and you only need to step of the throttle, which is weird and not seen in other sims. In other sims you would do 180-360° spin or even worse while in pCars you do 4 wheel slide like a madman and your front continues to realign(even thought slide angle is way above your front wheels maximum turn angle).

I think that hidden stabilization is called 'realistic tire physics and suspension"
the problem is that people are used to iRacing, rF2 or AC, where if you lose your car it's over, but that's not always case in real life
pCARS tire model might be better at this, or at least different enough to notice - and because people are not used to it and it's the only one that's different , it's automatically considered wrong/dampened/tamed

DoodlesSWE
15-05-2015, 23:47
I think that hidden stabilization is called 'realistic tire physics and suspension"
the problem is that people are used to iRacing, rF2 or AC, where if you lose your car it's over, but that's not always case in real life
pCARS tire model might be better at this, or at least different enough to notice - and because people are not used to it and it's the only one that's different , it's automatically considered wrong/dampened/tamed

That is hitting the nail square on the head. It's exactly how i feel about iRacing or (iceRacing as i like to call it) it over complicates the driving instead of keeping it realistic, it's making life harder for the driver just because it is a "super-hardcore-mega-ultra-simulator-for-the-eggspertz)... Is it realistic to do a full 360 at 20km/h because you thought about the breakpedal? Naweh. I like to think that the use of super-hardcore-simulator or the hardcore-simulator names are more for people to rub their own chests and go look at me i'm driving this super-hardcore-sim. it's all just simulators! It's basically the developers interpretation, making code and stacking math to produce something that behaves as realistic as possible.

For me i don't really care if it is super-mega-ultra-realistic, i'd like it to be as close as possible, but in the end all that matter is "Am i having fun?" if the answer is yes.. then it's all good, and i am having fun in Project Cars together with a list of other simulators i frequent just for fun.

yusupov
16-05-2015, 02:06
what you think are "cat-like reflexes" are simply a guy holding onto a wheel for dear life. watch someone with a servo wheel drive iracing, AC, probably pCARS & their inputs will look similar. theres just so much more torque going to the wheel it looks like theres a ton more driver input, most of the time hes not doing anything but keeping it straight.

yusupov
16-05-2015, 02:13
I think that hidden stabilization is called 'realistic tire physics and suspension"
the problem is that people are used to iRacing, rF2 or AC, where if you lose your car it's over, but that's not always case in real life
pCARS tire model might be better at this, or at least different enough to notice - and because people are not used to it and it's the only one that's different , it's automatically considered wrong/dampened/tamed

thats not really the case in any of those sims except iracing, & there i cant tell if its a design decision or not. when AC came out a lot of ppl thought it was incredibly easy (or at least natural) to be able to regain grip. rf2 i find its very easy as well, i can drive a lot of the cars similar to how i do pCARS in fact, funnily enough i think pC probably has most in common with ISI tires in terms of grip behavior. but yeah rf2 is a lot more punishing, even AC is more punishing, but neither of those exhibit what i dislike most aboutj iracing which is that the grip is almost binary. dont know whats more realistic but i much prefer the pC/AC/rf2 (and stock car exteme) way of modelling it where you can save slides; in racing this is virtually impossibel in anything other than a lotus 49 w/ the big grooved tires, you have to prevent the slide from ever even initiating with oftentimes odd wheel inputs.
maybe w/ accuforce its great ffb, bc as i said above you just have to hold the wheel straight as it bucks about, but any regular consumer wheel it seems to suffer.

AshenShugar
16-05-2015, 03:09
He obviously has issues with WMD. Of course the AC fanboys will flock to his newest hate speech. personally he lost most of his credibility with his last piece of fiction. Now he has zero.

Had to laugh at him he couldn't hate the FFB, so he had to mark it down in some other way.

IS Pcars perfect and bug free? no, we all know this. But him trying to insinuate that SMS don't care and won't work on the title just smacks of someone with an agenda.

Personally I see Pcars as a gateway sim. It's introducing people on a variety of platforms to sim racing. Who may previously never went past the likes of Forza or GT.

However the way that the sim community has been behaving in general is to the detriment of said community. Seriously it is worse that the AMD v Intel, AMD v Nvidia & PC vs consoles idiots.

Any new developers thinking of coming into this market, would seriously have to consider the toxic environment.

yusupov
16-05-2015, 03:25
i think the problems in his attitude to pCARS are twofold; there is a very easy "follow the money" element to point to latch onto & be suspect of, & i do think its important that people are informed about this (which was done w/ his previous video). the other problem imo is that simracing fans, for some reason, really have a tendency to fanboyism/zealotry. i think its a small percentage but they are overwhelmingly vocal. pCARS by nature of its development process & popularity is especially vulnerable to these fans. these guys can put people off, & create backlash. i see very little of it on this board tbh, compared to other boards...but im sure its out there, & i do think EB got exposed to some & there was some backlash involved.

and that is not to say he is "bias". he put out several (imo) positive pCARS videos beforehand. he seemed to have some hope & then be disappointed in the launch product. i just have a different perspective; i dont consider it a complete product, thats not how any sim operates right now. all of them are constantly being worked on on some level. unless ive missed something idk why its as if pCARS has stopped developing. it just launched...when AC launched it was a very soft launch bc it was open to anyone. it was basically understood that although all the features were there, AI was still unfinished, & the platform would continue to be advanced for the next year(s). for some reason pCARS isnt given that leeway, & i dont understand why not.

AshenShugar
16-05-2015, 03:40
fanboyism is a problem of the internet society in general not just in sims.

People forget where we were a few years back, where all we had were aging titles and nothing new for years other that a new Race dlc. Now were are spoiled for choices and we are ripping into each others titles cause we can. It is daft and idiotic behavior and if it isn't addressed will kill off the genre as it will drive the sensible people away in droves due to the toxic community.

We need to nurture and grow the community, not stamp on any new sprouts that shoot up. Sadly this will not happen on it's own accord.

Personally I think all the sim developer need to get together and try to fix this issue. Steam have given the option for developer to ban players from their games. Find these people and ban them from their all titles. That will fix things quick smart.

SeaNNyT
16-05-2015, 03:49
If I had to categorize the current racing titles and series it would look something like this.

Sim-cade
- Forza
- Gran Turismo

Sim-Lite
- Assetto Corsa
- Project Cars

Sim-Heavy
- iRacing
-rFactor

Project cars and Assetto kind of fill in this new niche that wasn't there.

AshenShugar
16-05-2015, 04:02
Sigh, why do we need to pigeon hole everything.

Everytime we do this people get offended when we say title x is not a sim its simcade or sim lite. Then it just escalates.

Why can we not just enjoy the games for what they are games? Games are meant to be fun. This infighting within the sim community is not what I call fun.

yusupov
16-05-2015, 04:05
idk that i agree. is stock car extreme 'sim light'? i wouldnt say so. 'sim-heavy'? i guess, in the way i could say pCARS is 'sim-heavy' in terms of amount of things being simulated, or that it is barebones in terms of presentation, the core of the game is the extent of the game, & thats the sim...does that mean sim-heavy? does that mean if rf2 gets a shiny coating & some cutscenes & a great career mode but all else is exactly the same its no longer sim-heavy? so idk how useful these distinctions really are.

meanwhile iracing & rf2 i think placed in the same category bc of difficulty more than similarity to each other. the tire model & ffb are so drastically different they are about as unlike each other as possible while still managing to universally be considered reputable sims. which says a lot to me about where we are, its an interesting time. in 10-15 years, partic. if simracing keeps attracting new minds who want to advance it, some of these games will be likely be relateable to what we'll be using then, some will probably seem like jokes. bc theres only one reality & were lucky to have a lot of quality interpretations to choose from right now but some are going to come away looking quite bad in a few years time.

DayGlow
16-05-2015, 04:27
Personally I don't think any game is a true sim. You simply can't model 'feel' that is so important in driving into a 2D experience. Half the arguments about FFB is about feeling your back end break free through a steering wheel?

Doesn't make sense. Personally I think many sims that people claim have the best physics are way harder to drive than real life as you lose half the senses that you need to drive.

I find the transition into and out of control in pCars much more organic than other games.

menaceuk
16-05-2015, 04:50
If I had to categorize the current racing titles and series it would look something like this.

Sim-cade
- Forza
- Gran Turismo

Sim-Lite
- Assetto Corsa
- Project Cars

Sim-Heavy
- iRacing
-rFactor

Project cars and Assetto kind of fill in this new niche that wasn't there.

What does sim-cade even mean.

When I see that description giving to a game I think of things like Project Gotham Racing, Need for speed shift, and Forza Horizon 2. Games that are relatively based on real world physics, but tweaked to be more a fun & accessible experience. I do not consider Forza & Gran Turismo to be like those former games.

IMO

Sim Cade - Horizon 2, PGR, NFS:S.
Driving Sim - Forza & Gran Turismo
Racing Sim - Iracing, P'CARS, Rfactor

Or my favourite pigeon hole...

Fun Games - PGR, Horizon 2, NFS:S, P'CARS, rFactor, iracing, Forza, Gran Turismo.

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 08:32
Sim-cade means something between simulation and arcade. Rather arcade with simulation elements.

The main reason of all this rumour is difference in how we feel a car in real and in game. In real world we feel a car by our body in the first row. Eyes and ears are secondary in case of feeling car when driving on the edge.
It's because, changes between stability and instability of the car are transmitted to us by subtle changes in acceleration (in all directions). Those signals cannot be seen or heard at this stage. Feeling through body allows a driver to react early enough, before he even see or hear something happen (for example tire is getting to loose traction)

Driving a simulated car is another story. We cannot feel it. We can react on signals emitted by monitor and speakers. So obviously all our reactions are too late.

And this is where we are and what we are discussing constantly. Decision must be made answering a question: should a game simulate pure physics or driving experience. If developer chose physics, then we get something like iRacing (or other hardcore sims). That's why iRacing (and other hardcore sims) might feel for some one unrealistic hard to drive.
If devs chose driving experience as predominant factor, they have to develop FEELING that driving simulated car is as easy as in real live, even without feeling forces on your back. What is important to note, this last approach doesn't mean it is not physical simulation. There is still physics involved with all those complex real time calculations. Difference is in a bit different parametrising of car parts; mainly tires which must be more forgiving while riding on the edge.

I believe this explanation change nothing regarding existence of 2 factions of players where each one prefers another approach. Important is to know reasons WHY those sims are different (even if they might be both called simulation) and what we are arguing for.

SRT SPEEDY
16-05-2015, 09:08
Many consider Assetto corsa to be a sim. One car that i love is the pagani Zonda R. Real WR on Nordschleife is 6.47.
Assetto is down to 6.07.... Thats 40 seconds faster than real life and its not a god lifelike representation.
PC cars is down to 6.25 at the moment. For me the lateral grip and the suspension combined with better tyrephysics
makes PC cars take the lead over Assetto Corsa atleast.

MrTulip
16-05-2015, 09:26
Anyone reading this thread and therefore being interested about physics and simulation should ponder what pCARS built-in MOTEC and this means:
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

There would be lots of other examples available about the work put into this title regarding physics. For me these alone mean that physics in pCARS is a thing that has been thought out extensively and tries to simulate reality as well as it is possible with the CPU cycles provided, defending its vision about car handling.

There is no way I can truly know if the pCARS has the most advanced physics on every field. Sim physics coders and real world driver panel could have this discussion. But I trust it does some things better than the competition.

For instance the soft carcass modeling in pCARS; I particularly well remember an F1 90s television broadcast where Michael Schumacher warmed his tyres doing very fast and very violent moves with his car in slow speed. The F1 car actually pretty much pivoted around its middle Y-axis, yet he didn't seem to have problems with loosing the control. With the cold tyres as there had been a long pause after the start and a new start. At the same time a friend of mine mentioned that he does not believe the car tyre simulation is anywhere near reality until that is possible in a game.
I think it is this type of tyre behavior pCARS now represents very well, and this is a win for simulations in general.

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 09:38
MSC can do it easily while we can't just because we cannot feel the forces on our back, so we cannot react on car behaviour as quick as real driver does.

Another thing is, that there is no objective data about how tires behave beyond the edge. Companies gather data about tire working range, but not sliding one. Especially sliding behaviour depends on a lot of various factor like temperatures, dust, graining, wear etc. While behaviour of tire in working range of slip angle is quite well defined, it isn't for sliding. Simply put there are no curves which might be a source for math functions.
That's why it's hard to properly simulate this stage another way than guessing/trial/error

unknwn
16-05-2015, 09:47
what you think are "cat-like reflexes" are simply a guy holding onto a wheel for dear life. watch someone with a servo wheel drive iracing, AC, probably pCARS & their inputs will look similar. theres just so much more torque going to the wheel it looks like theres a ton more driver input, most of the time hes not doing anything but keeping it straight.
Actually you are wrong about that I think. I know that the driver is holding to a wheel and the car itself provides edgy/spiky steering wheel movements. Either way with sloppy reflexes you wouldn't be able to hold on that feel like he does (obviously he isn't just holding the wheel but guiding it and it can be seen that in some slower corners he performs some very fast corrections/guiding). I have seen many AC,rF2 or iRacing vidoes with direct drive wheels and it exactly looks like that on the edgy cars in-game.
However I haven't seen that spiky body movement/sliding of the car in pCars nor the spikes in FFB in the telemetry. In pCars these details seems to be blurred. I understand that pCars tire model is more advanced than older sims (for example AC is lacking quite a lot of parts of simuliation compared to pCars/rF2/iracing and might be the least overall "sim" compared to those), however that doesn't automatically mean that all cars are handling as it should in all areas. I am thinking that rFactor2 tire model with its new contact patch update is as advanced as pCars while providing more details of what the car is doing (thought rF2 is much more punishing if you drive like an idiot).

Considering the high amount of absurd bugs or annoyances in the final release (it still looks game needed another delay) I am biased to think that pCars might have inaccuracies in the car handling too.

Antiversum
16-05-2015, 10:07
Many consider Assetto corsa to be a sim. One car that i love is the pagani Zonda R. Real WR on Nordschleife is 6.47.
Assetto is down to 6.07.... Thats 40 seconds faster than real life and its not a god lifelike representation.
PC cars is down to 6.25 at the moment. For me the lateral grip and the suspension combined with better tyrephysics
makes PC cars take the lead over Assetto Corsa atleast.


This is just a small but in my opinion important point for anything which want to be a simulation itself. If you are able to beat a reallife world record on any track by that amount of time you mentioned I would hardly call that game a simulation. You were maybe able to beat the record by perhaps a few seconds but no way it should be 40s.
However, the fatest lap ever on Nordschleife is Bellof with 6:11,13 (http://www.nuerburgring.de/stefanbellof.html) but it is not considered as an official record. From that time, I would consider both times of the two simulation possible. But would it be possible with those cars to beat the fastest lap ever? I don't know.

I have not enough racing-knowledge to judge if a game is a simulation or not, however I have enough driving-knowledge to judge a game if it is arcade or not. There are guys who say you should nearly brake your hands while driving on (certain) curbs - I can't tell because I have never been driving on curbs in reallife.

mcs1981
16-05-2015, 10:19
This channel is owned by a guy called Empty Box. I've seen several of his videos and they are mostly Iracing stuff. I unsubbed him after all I heard on his channel was bashing after bashing after bashing of titles. That channel is not for us who admits to be casual gamers.

SRT SPEEDY
16-05-2015, 12:42
Im certainly not a casual player. Ive have them all ( rf2, netcar pro, Assetto corsa, iracing, race room) theres nothing casual in the driving physics in this title.

DoodlesSWE
16-05-2015, 12:48
This is just a small but in my opinion important point for anything which want to be a simulation itself. If you are able to beat a reallife world record on any track by that amount of time you mentioned I would hardly call that game a simulation. You were maybe able to beat the record by perhaps a few seconds but no way it should be 40s.
However, the fatest lap ever on Nordschleife is Bellof with 6:11,13 (http://www.nuerburgring.de/stefanbellof.html) but it is not considered as an official record. From that time, I would consider both times of the two simulation possible. But would it be possible with those cars to beat the fastest lap ever? I don't know.

I have not enough racing-knowledge to judge if a game is a simulation or not, however I have enough driving-knowledge to judge a game if it is arcade or not. There are guys who say you should nearly brake your hands while driving on (certain) curbs - I can't tell because I have never been driving on curbs in reallife.

Being a Simulator or not does not have anything to do with real life result, what you are forgetting here is that we can drive like idiots taking corners without fear for our lifes or smashing a million dollar car into a guard rail. and if we happen to do so we just hit reset and try again. So of course we can go much faster then a real life driver can, we don't need to deal with the consequences of doing that fatal mistake.

Joao
16-05-2015, 15:23
Race Pro 07 was awesome on the Xbox 360.

There is also a rumour that Asseto Corsa is coming to consoles.

Wish Simbin would bring out a GTR3 or something on console.

Yes, Race Pro was on the 360 and if I recall well it was deemed "dumbed down" for the console from the sim racing comunity.

AC ad GTR3 are coming to consoles? Lets see how they are received.

Joao
16-05-2015, 15:42
Being a Simulator or not does not have anything to do with real life result, what you are forgetting here is that we can drive like idiots taking corners without fear for our lifes or smashing a million dollar car into a guard rail. and if we happen to do so we just hit reset and try again. So of course we can go much faster then a real life driver can, we don't need to deal with the consequences of doing that fatal mistake.

Professional racing drivers do not avoid to do something they know its faster just because its dangerous, allthough they are not "in the edge" all the race. But in qualy and some parts of the race you can expect them to be just pushing for more speed. SO I think you are wrong, even if you are right considering casual racers and amateurs.

Joao
16-05-2015, 15:43
This guy sounds like pcars not a sim, i'm not good in listening english, can someone tell me why he say pcars not a sim?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtvFNKmS3qs

He also write some description...

ublished on May 15, 2015
Some more stuff is in this description so you might want to check it. Wonder why I don't mention MP or Audio? Explanation below.

Graphics setting comparisons :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdUmh...

Jack Spade FFB Tweaks :
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/show...

Why not mention MP? It's a lobby system, no dedicated servers. So naturally... results are gonna vary.

Audio runs a wide range from poor to solid. In particular, I feel like a lot of sounds are just poorly mixed - super mega loud (and terrible sounding) bottoming out, blow off valves that are louder than a P1 engine... Lots of distortion. That one last point is why I didn't mention it - some people really like that, some don't. I don't, but whatever.

AMD performance from what I've heard is abysmal. I'm on "Team Green" right now so I can't comment directly, but it's worth checking into if you are using an AMD GPU.

I've also heard that controllers are really, really, really finnicky and often poorly utilized - need tweaking to get it right. Again, can't comment on that directly.

AI performance is laughable, it's bad enough that it really is no better than Assetto Corsa. AC AI doesn't try and pass enough, PCARS AI will kill you. I'd rather not have my exhaust pipes violated - it is that incredibly frustrating.

In particular, the first lap behavior is lulzy. I can reliably pass 6 cars on standing starts on max difficulty. This doesn't even include the inevitable AI crashing into one another or missing the apex entirely. (Protip : ALWAYS get to the inside of T1 in advance, it's easy pickings and much safer than the outside as the AI ALWAYS understeers in T1)

Also : you can jump starts by a good bit without punishment. It makes qualifying mostly useless and is a pretty hilarious thing for a racing game to have bugged. But that will surely be patched.

He gives only subjective justifications, nothing really objective.

He says that the game is not a “sim as the term is used on the PC side” of things because the physics is not as he expects. He says the cars, specially the road cars, seem to have a hidden stabilization help (note: some road cars do have stabilization controle in real life) because they never react badly even if provoked. He also say that the game inherits same car handling traits from previous titles from Slightly Mad which he says has the worse sim record since GTR2. He talks about the "floaty feeling" and says that its not at the same level as SHift2. He also says that this 2 problems are not important in PC racecars because “you are not going to drive them sideways”. He goes on to say that such cars do behave has you expect them to, but just don’t have “an edge” to it. However the rain driving he considers completely irrealistic.

MutantOctane
16-05-2015, 16:45
Say what you want about EmptyBox, but I appreciate his opinions (even if I sometimes disagree with them.). He is one heck of a sim wheel man, essentially an alien fast driver compared to the likes of most of us (maybe not so much as compared to Gregor Huttu). I put him up there with Shuan Cole when it comes to YouTube or internet sim racing infotainment.

I appreciate all driving games, although I find some more fun, approachable, and visceral than others. ProjectCars is a breath of fresh air on consoles to me, just the right amount of realism, and a good overall feel.

Joao
16-05-2015, 17:09
Say what you want about EmptyBox, but I appreciate his opinions (even if I sometimes disagree with them.). He is one heck of a sim wheel man, essentially an alien fast driver compared to the likes of most of us (maybe not so much as compared to Gregor Huttu). I put him up there with Shuan Cole when it comes to YouTube or internet sim racing infotainment.

I appreciate all driving games, although I find some more fun, approachable, and visceral than others. ProjectCars is a breath of fresh air on consoles to me, just the right amount of realism, and a good overall feel.

There must be some confusion... I have said nothing about Empty Box but what he said himself, except for one remark, and that remark is related to his claims and ideas, not himself: I said that his claims are subjective, (and I still look for someone who says "its not a sim" and presents some kind of objective evindence like Gs in corners or speeds or whatever its objective. That was the kind of validation that was done internally at SMS! At least for some of the cars, I didnt follow all) So, I never said nothing about the guy or his caracteristics, I never mix people with ideas and arguments . And I did not mention wether he is a good sim racer or not, nor if he can be entertaining - I donīt know (just for 1 video I would not judge that). And I dont really see how being an alien sim racer is something that would make him more able to judge real world physics implementation, as its reasonable that it can bias a player towards the simulations he allready knows, using them as reference for "real world physics" instead of hard data.

I'd be more inclined to take a subjective opinion such as this from known real world racers on a blind test (for exemple, with all sims looking exactly the same without any names on it)

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 17:18
Just to note, unfortunately real world racers who have no simracing experience cannot judge physics in fair way. They will judge driving experience rather than physics.
Due to obvious differences between driving real car and sitting against monitor, they will require "easier" physics to drive the same way they used to in real life.

DoodlesSWE
16-05-2015, 17:26
Professional racing drivers do not avoid to do something they know its faster just because its dangerous, allthough they are not "in the edge" all the race. But in qualy and some parts of the race you can expect them to be just pushing for more speed. SO I think you are wrong, even if you are right considering casual racers and amateurs.

Yes they go to the limit, they push the cars to the absolute edge sometimes. But still you are a human in a racecar, and self preservation is quite a strong feeling :) and your team boss will not be a happy camper if you keep stuffing his cars. So race drivers have variables that they have to take into account that we do not have to give a shit about. We can do qualifying and crash as many times we want, that's what i meant with drive like idiots, we can go over the edge as many times we want without consequences, we can keep stuffing that Zonda in a guard rail time and time again until we succeed. That is what a real race driver does not do in qualifying or a race. They want to complete the race. They do not have a reset button and an unlimited amount of cars to just bring out on the track.

Joao
16-05-2015, 17:27
Just to note, unfortunately real world racers who have no simracing experience cannot judge physics in fair way. They will judge driving experience rather than physics.
Due to obvious differences between driving real car and sitting against monitor, they will require "easier" physics to drive the same way they used to in real life.

It would be needed to give them time right? Just input lag would mess the hell out of them. But after adequate "conditioning" their opinion could not be beaten. Ha, and allways in a blind test has I said above. I know enough about bias to know you cant have it any other way.

Charles Gillen
16-05-2015, 17:34
The Box talks, I listen. Go look at his YOUtube vids. He's actually being very kind and wants to like this game. He is a PC simracer at heart and apparently been at it for a while.

Dreco
16-05-2015, 17:43
So many experts in the domain of physics in here. So many professional racing drivers in here.

I'm impressed.

Joao
16-05-2015, 17:57
The Box talks, I listen. Go look at his YOUtube vids. He's actually being very kind and wants to like this game. He is a PC simracer at heart and apparently been at it for a while.

That really doesnīt adress my claim that it is just an subjective opinion.

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 18:02
It would be needed to give them time right? Just input lag would mess the hell out of them. But after adequate "conditioning" they're opinion could not be beaten. Ha, and allways in a blind test has I said above. I know enough about bias to know you cant have it any other way.

Don't know what do you mean by "input lag".
I meant lack of inputs like forces felt by driver back and ass.
Let's assume existence of 100% perfect simulation including transferring to driver (in some way) all forces driver can feel IRL. Put real driver into it - he will drive this sim like in real car.
In second test let's disallow the driver to feel those forces and he will be not able to drive as good/fast as in the first test. Moreover he will say that car is not drivable like on ice.

This is what happens if you put real driver stright into sim. Even the most accurate representation will be commented as not realistic / harder to drive. Just because of lack of those forces driver rely on.
I hope you got my point.
This is the reason why only option is to involve real driver who has long-term experience in simracing.

Joao
16-05-2015, 18:07
So many experts in the domain of physics in here. So many professional racing drivers in here.

I'm impressed.

That is actually something I miss. I would like to ear it from racing drivers, experienced ones, what they think of each simulation. I believe most models (sims are physiscs models) will have their pros and cons. I dont think that there is a sim that can get all the inner workings validated to scientific standards (but their combined output may be close enough). Because for all I have read about it, It still is necessary to cut things and simplify, at least in the consumer grade sims. SO I would like to know from a bunch of racers what do they have to say about all the sims we play.

Joao
16-05-2015, 18:19
Don't know what do you mean by "input lag".
I meant lack of inputs like forces felt by driver back and ass.
Let's assume existence of 100% perfect simulation including transferring to driver (in some way) all forces driver can feel IRL. Put real driver into it - he will drive this sim like in real car.
In second test let's disallow the driver to feel those forces and he will be not able to drive as good/fast as in the first test. Moreover he will say that car is not drivable like on ice.

This is what happens if you put real driver stright into sim. Even the most accurate representation will be commented as not realistic / harder to drive. Just because of lack of those forces driver rely on.
I hope you got my point.
This is the reason why only option is to involve real driver who has long-term experience in simracing.

I get your point, I just don't agree completely. I imagine the time I expect to became reasonable for a race driver to judge a sim is less then the time you are considering, but I may be wrong. I think we can both agree that that time is when he learns to not expect sensorial info other then sight and acustic. I think in a couple of weeks for a morning a day, that such conditioning could be obtained for this porpouse alone (maybe not for wining sim races, that would take learning the sim itself and excel of using just said information).

Input lag is the time that goes from a motion on your steering wheel controller until the physics model is updated from such input, but most times it is measured with the inclusion of screen latency which is the time an image is formed on screen from the time it is sent from the graphics card. In short its the time it takes for your action to have its effect in the virtual world. Reality is instantaneous! Thats why in sim racing you have to antecipate more of the cars behavior then in real life. For example, Senna was allways relying on his reflexes to race. He could never do that in sim racing. But he could allways look back and say if the car had a adequante beahavior.

DayGlow
16-05-2015, 18:21
I
This is just a small but in my opinion important point for anything which want to be a simulation itself. If you are able to beat a reallife world record on any track by that amount of time you mentioned I would hardly call that game a simulation. You were maybe able to beat the record by perhaps a few seconds but no way it should be 40s.
However, the fatest lap ever on Nordschleife is Bellof with 6:11,13 (http://www.nuerburgring.de/stefanbellof.html) but it is not considered as an official record. From that time, I would consider both times of the two simulation possible. But would it be possible with those cars to beat the fastest lap ever? I don't know.

I have not enough racing-knowledge to judge if a game is a simulation or not, however I have enough driving-knowledge to judge a game if it is arcade or not. There are guys who say you should nearly brake your hands while driving on (certain) curbs - I can't tell because I have never been driving on curbs in reallife.

I disagree. With things being equal on the physics/grip side the sim racer should beat the real world times. The sim driver doesn't have to deal with actual g forces, lateral acceration, or the all important real fear of death of driving right on the edge. That is probably good for half a minute difference on a track the size of the ring.

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 18:32
I get your point, I just don't agree completely. I imagine the time I expect to became reasonable for a race driver to judge a sim is less then the time you are considering, but I may be wrong. I think we can both agree that that time is when he learns to not expect sensorial info other then sight and acustic. I think in a couple of weeks for a morning a day, that such conditioning could be obtained for this porpouse alone (maybe not for wining sim races, that would take learning the sim itself and excel of using just said information).

Input lag is the time that goes from a motion on your steering wheel controller until the physics model is updated from such input, but most times it is measured with the inclusion of screen latency which is the time an image is formed on screen from the time it is sent from the graphics card. In short its the time it takes for your action to have its effect in the virtual world. Reality is instantaneous! Thats why in sim racing you have to antecipate more of the cars behavior then in real life. For example, Senna was allways relying on his reflexes to race. He could never do that in sim racing. But he could allways look back and say if the car had a adequante beahavior.

Yes, important is, to allow real world driver who is working as consultant to get used to simulation and understand all those differences.
I believe we are talking about the same thing and we agree with each other.

hyfly66
16-05-2015, 18:35
A simulator is not a game and even less a arcade. It requires tweaking and hours to get your car competitive. PC is not perfect and even Mercedes sim is not real life driving. Simulators have gone a long way and still some progress is needed but things are getting better. This 60$ sim is by far the best there is. The one that F1 pilots use is worth $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and is still not as per real world. Stop complaining and start making the best of what we have. It take a complete season to get a race car running at its best. PC is 2 weeks old ,start tuning and get better that is what its all about.

townnet
16-05-2015, 18:41
He gives only subjective justifications, nothing really objective.

He says that the game is not a “sim as the term is used on the PC side” of things because the physics is not as he expects. He says the cars, specially the road cars, seem to have a hidden stabilization help (note: some road cars do have stabilization controle in real life) because they never react badly even if provoked. He also say that the game inherits same car handling traits from previous titles from Slightly Mad which he says has the worse sim record since GTR2. He talks about the "floaty feeling" and says that its not at the same level as SHift2. He also says that this 2 problems are not important in PC racecars because “you are not going to drive them sideways”. He goes on to say that such cars do behave has you expect them to, but just don’t have “an edge” to it. However the rain driving he considers completely irrealistic.Thanks dude...

Suburban Coot
16-05-2015, 18:46
The game has a few issues at the moment. But IMO PCars is a sim. The big question is whether or not it is a realistic sim. It's certainly more realistic than the likes of Forza and any of Codemasters racing titles.

Realistic right down to laying tire rubber on the track after a few laps. And that's just 1 of many little tweaks Pcars has to offer vs other console racers atm.:cool:

Nightauditor
16-05-2015, 22:22
In terms of realism I am afraid hat pCars is somewhere in the gran turismo / Forza corner, imo. I would even go so far that Forza and Gran Turismo have Project Cars beat when it comes to the handling. In both those titles you can easily hold the cars when you go over the limit, something that is not really possible in Project Cars.

Some of the cars just donīt handle like they should, but it is still a satisfying exprience to drive them around. The Bmw 1 M would be one example and the evo is another.

In terms of realism the kings seem to be iRacing and Assetto Corsa. I think Raceroom Experience is pretty good as well. But pCars still has a lot of advantadges over those titles, and with a new tire model things can change pretty quickly in the future.

You can surely call pCars a simulation, itīs just not the best atm, at least when it comes to physics.

It is a lot better than the NFS Shift series, but there is still a lot to improve when it comes to handling.

PS: I kind of agree and disagree at the same time about the career mode. I am happy that I can just drive the cars I want right from the start. On the other hand I kind of enjoyed working towards certain cars in Forza or Gran turismo back in the day.

I think no matter what you decide here, you canīt satisfy everybody. I like that I can "own" cars in forza though and make them my own by customizing them a little. Maybe that is something that could be thought of in Project Cars 2

youngade
16-05-2015, 22:44
Some of the cars just donīt handle like they should

Your opinion or fact?

Nightauditor
16-05-2015, 22:53
Your opinion or fact?

It is a fact. I have driven quite a few cars in real life and have played pretty much every sim there was since 1988. When you can do things in real life, but you canīt reproduce them in the sim, then it is not handling like it should.

I donīt want to talk too much about other sims here, but try driving the 1M in Assetto Corsa and drive it afterwards in Project Cars. It should be immediately clear what I mean then.

The physics in pCars donīt allow the car to do, what it should do in real life. It is mostly noticeable when you go over the limit, which I personally love to do in a 1M for example :)

If you combine real world driving experience with knowledge of other sims, then it should be relatively obvious that something is not quite right.

PS: Little realism test. A user here said that he could launch his modded 135i in second gear. Impossible in Project Cars, possible in Assetto Corsa. Itīs just a little example of something that shows that the underlying physics engine (or rather the tire model in this case) is not quite right.

Andil
16-05-2015, 23:14
Your opinion or fact?

Just opinion isn't it really.. Until you've driven each car in real life, there's no way you can say categorically that it feels correct or not.

For me, I race a Clio Cup car, and I can safely say that I'm not sure what pCars could do to make their physics more accurate for the car. Everything you do with a FWD race car is represented in exactly the same way in the game. Dry track or wet track, it feels perfect, not an exaggeration. Actually can't think of how they could improve the realism of that car.

I haven't driven anything above that in real life, so I can't comment on the physics of RWD cars for example, but they do 'feel' pretty real to me.

The circuits are superbly modelled too, UK circuits have all the bumps and lumps that are actually there, and the car reacts to those bumps in the same way as it does in real life - from my experience anyway.

Shnoo
16-05-2015, 23:24
I love that shitstorm here.

Blame Empty for his Video because you don't like it but pls stop this supid flames about his AGGRESIVE DRIVING or whatever bevore watching any of his videos.


Your opinion or fact?

Its Funny how they should prove that they are right but you don't have too.

Thinking that pcars is that masterpiece of driving physics is just naiv. Who ever thinks this has never even pushed his/her own car to its limit.
The tire model of pcars has the same problems on gaining or loosing grip like every other sim (like) game out there. On iracing the line is to thin and for some it feels like iceracing. On pcars its definatly to big its way to hard even with ridicules setups to get a rwd car sideways therefor you can save the car out of totaly unrealistic angles when you are loosing it.

Or watch the crash physics. I don't think they are very realistic too. I think the damage model is way to soft. As an example i got some very very hard hits in GT3 cars and it didn't even have a scratch.
I don't think the FF is that good either. On my own car you can feel every bump (dirt etc) especially when i'm driving it hard. But in pcars its a bit like the tracks are as smooth as silk.

There is much more to compare but i'm way to tired to write a more detailed post.

pcars is definatly not the most realistic sim out there. Does it make it less fun? Depents on what you expect of it.
I like it i had a lot of fun with it already. The only thing i'm missing is a better compitition system like an elo system or something like that. Its not really called racing when i'm 2-10 seconds faster a lap then second place.
Or fun when you got totaled your car because 5 guys behind you did the divebomb from hell into t1 thingy.

P.S. the only if you think its hard to drive doesn't mean its that hard to drive argument is bullshit if you got 0 expirience with it in the real world.

Nightauditor
16-05-2015, 23:27
Just opinion isn't it really.. Until you've driven each car in real life, there's no way you can say categorically that it feels correct or not.

I am sorry, but that is simply not true. You can tell what the car is supposed to handle like to a certain degree just by looking at it and understanding it.

Take the 1M for example. Apart from the fact that I have real life experience in very similar cars, I already know that it is a relatively short wheelbase RWD car with a LSD and a balanced chassis. I know that it is coupled with a turbocharged engine that gives more than enough torque to keep the wheels spinning even in third, at least in corners.

I know what to expect before even sitting in the car. When you drive enough different cars in real life AND in simulators you kind of know what to expect. Again, to a certain degree.

I have not driven LMP or formula cars, so I wonīt say anything about that. But I can say with 100 % certainty that the road cars in Project Cars do not handle at all like they should do.

And no offense, but recreating low powered fwd cars is basically the easiest thing you can do. There is not much chassis movement on power in real life, and there is none in pCars.

It is in the powerful rwd arena where things start to deviate hard from reality.

There are lots of things that pCars can be proud of, a lot of things that they do much better than other sims. I just donīt see any use in pretending the physics are close to reality when they clearly arenīt.

Nightauditor
16-05-2015, 23:44
Who ever thinks this has never even pushed his/her own car to its limit.
The tire model of pcars has the same problems on gaining or loosing grip like every other sim (like) game out there.

Thank you, good Sir!

Finally another driver who pushes his car in the real world as well. I always feel in these discussions that you sometimes argue against people who never driven hard in real life :)

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Assetto Corsa yet? In terms of the tire physics I think it is by far the most natural feeling sim to date.

Andil
16-05-2015, 23:51
...There are lots of things that pCars can be proud of, a lot of things that they do much better than other sims. I just donīt see any use in pretending the physics are close to reality when they clearly arenīt.

You clearly have your mind made up already, which is fine -

If FWD physics are so easy, why has only pCars managed to do it properly? Many other sims have FWD cars with super stiff chassis', but pCars is the only one so far where it feels identical to the real thing - give the game some credit, you're giving it none at all. And I really mean it feels identical, every input does exactly what I'd expect the race car to do in reality.

A friend who races Formula Ford (equivalent to Formula Junior) has made the same comments, so I think pCars has the basic physics nailed on a lot better than you might think.

Haven't driven any of the road cars in pCars, so maybe they are abysmal - but in terms of race cars, certainly pCars is the most real feeling sim/game I've driven, that's my opinion based on my own experience.

Edit: imo AC feels nice, but is very over-exaggerated for the sake of the wheel feeling nice in your hands, can't take its physics seriously other than for some enjoyable driving.

Nightauditor
17-05-2015, 00:01
You clearly have your mind made up already, which is fine -

If FWD physics are so easy, why has only pCars managed to do it properly? Many other sims have FWD cars with super stiff chassis', but pCars is the only one so far where it feels identical to the real thing - give the game some credit, you're giving it none at all. And I really mean it feels identical, every input does exactly what I'd expect the race car to do in reality.

A friend who races Formula Ford (equivalent to Formula Junior) has made the same comments, so I think pCars has the basic physics nailed on a lot better than you might think.

Haven't driven any of the road cars in pCars, so maybe they are abysmal - but in terms of race cars, certainly pCars is the most real feeling sim/game I've driven, that's my opinion based on my own experience.

Edit: imo AC feels nice, but is very over-exaggerated for the sake of the wheel feeling nice in your hands, can't take its physics seriously other than for some enjoyable driving.

The way you talk I have to seriously doubt that you have much real world driving experience. Many sims have recreated believable FWD physics because the behaviour of fwd is much easier to simulate.

You can only get understeer when you overdo it, nothing else. Oversteer is something for weight shifts (in a good chassis) the brake (in a great chassis) or the handbrake. All that is relatively easy to reproduce in a sim. Relatively.

When you get into RWD physics, things get a lot more complicated. You have to calculate grip levels at different slip angles, you have to take differential settings and types into account, etc. That is another ballgame, and not many sims have done great here, although there are a few.

Plus, I do believe that I am arguing very rationally here. I am not emotional about this. I do own and like both sims and many more.

It is what it is. My mind is not made up because I have anything against project cars, my opinion is settled because I know how cars should react in certain situations (from real life experience) and that they simply donīt handle that way in Project Cars.

It is as simple as that. I also know that other sims are closer to reality with their tire model and feel.

Again, no emotions or anger here. Just simple observations.

PS: The formula cars might be different, as you donīt drive them over the limit. And the basic chassis characteristics and aerodynamics seem to work pretty well already. It is in the powerful road cars where things start to feel wrong.

PPS: Your statement about AC physics is a bit ridiculous. When you think the physics in AC canīt be taken seriously then you clearly are unable to judge physics correctly. That is probably directly related to a lack of real world driving experience. You can say a lot of things about AC, but bashing the physics doesnīt make you more credible.

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 00:02
Thank you, good Sir!
Finally another driver who pushes his car in the real world as well. I always feel in these discussions that you sometimes argue against people who never driven hard in real life :)

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Assetto Corsa yet? In terms of the tire physics I think it is by far the most natural feeling sim to date.

Got my first expirence with traction control about 2 weeks after i got my driving licence ;). Had only Sim Racing experience before.
But i'm not like a lot of idiots and drive only this way when the streets are empty. Its one thing when i end on a tree but another when i end on another car wich maybe has kids inside it.
But if you live in a countrified area like me the streets are not very busy :).

Sure i tried AC. I like it a lot but i think the online mode is just crap. Another problem i got with it that i think ac needs more tracks and maybe more cars too.
But I Love the m3 e 92 and e46 they feel so natural wish i could drive one of them in the real world.

Nightauditor
17-05-2015, 00:21
I agree about the tracks and cars, but the good thing is that AC is moddable. I have already a ton of high quality tracks and quite a few high quality cars sitting here.

I agree about the M3, but I think you mean the E30? Afaik there sadly is no E46 ingame, at least not in the release version. Although I believe the E30 drift car the E46 M3 engine.

I would love a E46 CSL in assetto. Or in Project Cars for that matter :) Best BMW ever made imo.

Andil
17-05-2015, 00:27
The way you talk I have to seriously doubt that you have much real world driving experience. Many sims have recreated believable FWD physics because the behaviour of fwd is much easier to simulate.

You can only get understeer when you overdo it, nothing else. Oversteer is something for weight shifts (in a good chassis) the brake (in a great chassis) or the handbrake,

Understand what you're saying, and do agree to an extent.

I am telling you from real life experience (I race a Clio Cup car, maybe you missed that bit?) that the pCars FWD physics are virtually identical to the real car, I don't know what there is to argue against in terms of that :p (mildly offended by the "don't have much real world driving experience" comment but anyway...)

I'm saying that if they can get it feeling perfect for a Clio and apparently also for a FFord, then surely the basic physics are actually pretty good. Admittedly these are low power cars, but it means the basics are right.

We'd need to speak to someone who races GT4, GT3 or something similar to get their opinion to have a proper idea of how 'real' it is for high power RWD cars - it would be interesting to find out. I expect you may be right and that once you start including high power, diffs and downforce, that it might start to unravel and the 'real' feeling may be lost - but 'til you speak to a GT driver, we can only speculate and state opinion about cars like that.

Edit: Wow just saw your edit regarding my inability to perceive driving physics due to my lack of real world driving experience... Just plain rude.

Nightauditor
17-05-2015, 00:47
Hey, thanks for the reply and I apologize for that statement. I think the flaws I seem to experience probably do not relate that much to the FWD cars. I mostly have trouble to get a feel for cars on power oversteer. It is hard to explain what exactly feels wrong, but I just know that there is something wrong if that makes sense.

Anway, the whole point of threads like this one is to make devs aware of issues that we experience. And because of pCars being so great in a lot of aspects, I feel like the game deserves to drive as well as it looks and sounds.

Itīs awesome that you actually race in the clio, I always wanted to go into professional racing but my parents at the time quickly guided me in a different direction. Someday Iīll do something in a racecar, but Iīll have to earn a bit more money and time for that.

I have driven on many tracks though, but sadly not in a professional race.

PS: You are correct about the gt3 and 4 cars, we would have to get input from professionals here. I am talking mostly about the road cars though, that rely mostly on mechanical grip, rather than aerodynamics. I have never driven a high downforce car, so I have nothing to compare it to.

But the road cars, those I feel I can judge correctly to a degree, and here I can feel that something isnīt right.

Backmarker
17-05-2015, 00:55
This guy sounds like pcars not a sim, i'm not good in listening english, can someone tell me why he say pcars not a sim?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtvFNKmS3qs

He also write some description...

ublished on May 15, 2015
Some more stuff is in this description so you might want to check it. Wonder why I don't mention MP or Audio? Explanation below.

Graphics setting comparisons :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdUmh...

Jack Spade FFB Tweaks :
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/show...

Why not mention MP? It's a lobby system, no dedicated servers. So naturally... results are gonna vary.

Audio runs a wide range from poor to solid. In particular, I feel like a lot of sounds are just poorly mixed - super mega loud (and terrible sounding) bottoming out, blow off valves that are louder than a P1 engine... Lots of distortion. That one last point is why I didn't mention it - some people really like that, some don't. I don't, but whatever.

AMD performance from what I've heard is abysmal. I'm on "Team Green" right now so I can't comment directly, but it's worth checking into if you are using an AMD GPU.

I've also heard that controllers are really, really, really finnicky and often poorly utilized - need tweaking to get it right. Again, can't comment on that directly.

AI performance is laughable, it's bad enough that it really is no better than Assetto Corsa. AC AI doesn't try and pass enough, PCARS AI will kill you. I'd rather not have my exhaust pipes violated - it is that incredibly frustrating.

In particular, the first lap behavior is lulzy. I can reliably pass 6 cars on standing starts on max difficulty. This doesn't even include the inevitable AI crashing into one another or missing the apex entirely. (Protip : ALWAYS get to the inside of T1 in advance, it's easy pickings and much safer than the outside as the AI ALWAYS understeers in T1)

Also : you can jump starts by a good bit without punishment. It makes qualifying mostly useless and is a pretty hilarious thing for a racing game to have bugged. But that will surely be patched.

I agree with the review except for the "having everything unlocked is a bad idea" part. A lot of comments and reviews of any game has to be seen from the perspective of the reviewer. I lean towards game at the far end of the physics-realism (iracing, rf2, ac) and view pCARS from that perspective.

Do that many people play pCARS at 100% AI Strength? I am not sure to make out if emptysboxers is making a humblebrag or if I am that slow of a driver? Depending on the car, the max AI strength setting I can use is 90 and I usually have to keep it the AI at 85 or lower! :p

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 01:02
But the road cars, those I feel I can judge correctly to a degree, and here I can feel that something isnīt right.

Thats what i have trouble describing too. Especially the rwd cars feel totaly wrong. That does not mean that i don't like the game at all or even hate the road cars.
I like the Focus RS a lot. Had to tweak the set a bit but now even the backend starts to slide around a bit if you overdo it. But the rwd cars just feel odd. After i got my hands on pcars my first try was with the BMW 1 M and messing around with the physics just overdoing it hard and nothing happend and this feeling started to grow after trying a few other cars.

We are not Saying pcars is a bad sim but it does not always feel very accurate. It does a few things very good as an example i love how the tire temps or wear works. Havent seen it this good in a loooong time.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 01:08
Thats what i have trouble describing too. Especially the rwd cars feel totaly wrong. That does not mean that i don't like the game at all or even hate the road cars.
I like the Focus RS a lot. Had to tweak the set a bit but now even the backend starts to slide around a bit if you overdo it. But the rwd cars just feel odd. After i got my hands on pcars my first try was with the BMW 1 M and messing around with the physics just overdoing it hard and nothing happend and this feeling started to grow after trying a few other cars.

We are not Saying pcars is a bad sim but it does not always feel very accurate. It does a few things very good as an example i love how the tire temps or wear works. Havent seen it this good in a loooong time.

Could this possibly be attributed to what EmptyBox mentions in his video about the default setups being extremely user friendly? I'm no expert is why I ask, but do find Project CARS to be very new driver friendly with some cars. Is it possible, as he suggests, to adjust setups to be more optimal and therefor more realistic physics to how they actually are?

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 01:09
I agree with the review except for the "having everything unlocked is a bad idea" part. A lot of comments and reviews of any game has to be seen from the perspective of the reviewer. I lean towards game at the far end of the physics-realism (iracing, rf2, ac) and view pCARS from that perspective.

Do that many people play pCARS at 100% AI Strength? I am not sure to make out if emptysboxers is making a humblebrag or if I am that slow of a driver? Depending on the car, the max AI strength setting I can use is 90 and I usually have to keep it the AI at 85 or lower! :p

I don't know how many play it at 100%. I don't race the AI much but when its at 100% and they still feel a bit slow. And i'm not that fast at all. I think its much easier when you have a bit of simracing experience and know where to improve your laptimes. The tracks is race most atm are Laguna Seca and Zolder and at 100% they are at least 1-2 seconds slower a lap then me.

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 01:11
Could this possibly be attributed to what EmptyBox mentions in his video about the default setups being extremely user friendly? I'm no expert is why I ask, but do find Project CARS to be very new driver friendly with some cars. Is it possible, as he suggests, to adjust setups to be more optimal and therefor more realistic physics to how they actually are?

I had this thought too but can't tell it atm because i have to mess around much more with many cars to tell if my and his complains can simply be fixed by a setup change.


PS. Atm i don't think it's the case that it's just a setup thing.

miagi
17-05-2015, 03:11
I am driving without assists (sometimes ABS) and heavily modified setups (less rear aero, more tail happy/edgy and etc) and I find pCars physics to be "easier" than rf2/gsce or AC. Dampened I would say, seems like car reactions are slower/not edgy/filtered. You can survive with pretty sloppy reflexes while at the limit of the car. Many cars feel like they have some additional stability control (compared to other sims). Often after you start spinning/sliding and go totally sideways (like 90° sliding angle) cars magically want to align the front and often they succeed and you only need to step of the throttle, which is weird and not seen in other sims. In other sims you would do 180-360° spin or even worse while in pCars you do 4 wheel slide like a madman and your front continues to realign(even thought slide angle is way above your front wheels maximum turn angle).

Yes because cars are designed to be deathtraps, no wait, they are not!

Sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajN5fVVOLOw
And that is just an example for a bad race car and/or bad setup. The fact that he has to work that hard and correct so much on the wheel, only shows what a bad racecar the mclaren gt3 is, no wonder it hasn't won any big endurence race in the last 3 years.

Here is how a good and well balanced car is driven, the Z4 GT3.

http://youtu.be/5SxvS2iYdfM

JDFSSS
17-05-2015, 06:02
I do agree there seems to be a subtle, but definitely noticeable magical force that stops your car from spinning in this game. There have been a lot of times where I was in what would be an unrecoverable skid in any other sim game I've played, but somehow my car magically goes back in the correct direction just by lifting and counter steering. I don't think it's the setup of the car, it just feels like what happens should be impossible. In Gran Turismo this magic force was called "skid recovery force", and you could turn it off. The game would be more rewarding and enjoyable for me if this didn't happen.

jgaganas
17-05-2015, 06:16
I do agree there seems to be a subtle, but definitely noticeable magical force that stops your car from spinning in this game. There have been a lot of times where I was in what would be an unrecoverable skid in any other sim game I've played, but somehow my car magically goes back in the correct direction just by lifting and counter steering. I don't think it's the setup of the car, it just feels like what happens should be impossible. In Gran Turismo this magic force was called "skid recovery force", and you could turn it off. The game would be more rewarding and enjoyable for me if this didn't happen.

This is exactly the issue i'm having with the 125cc Karts (most noticable on the rollercoaster-kart-track).

If there is such "magic", it has to be an assist-option. Or is this is an "player tayloring" issue at beginning of the game (started at "Novice" with the gamepad)?

Can someone confirm?

JDFSSS
17-05-2015, 06:29
This is exactly the issue i'm having with the 125cc Karts (most noticable on the rollercoaster-kart-track).

If there is such "magic", it has to be an assist-option. Or is this is an "player tayloring" issue at beginning of the game (started at "Novice" with the gamepad)?

Can someone confirm?

I think it's just built in the game with no option to turn it off. I started on professional difficulty and have my assists set to real. I have experienced the magical skid recovery force on cars with no assists.

akiba34
17-05-2015, 07:22
Stopped listening when he said Forza and GT are hardcore sims.

Well, in GT's defense, a lot of good drivers have come from GT. Not to mention, racing teams trust Gran Turismo's accuracy so much, they give people who are good at the game, a shot on their racing team.

unknwn
17-05-2015, 07:56
Yes because cars are designed to be deathtraps, no wait, they are not!

And that is just an example for a bad race car and/or bad setup. The fact that he has to work that hard and correct so much on the wheel, only shows what a bad racecar the mclaren gt3 is, no wonder it hasn't won any big endurence race in the last 3 years.

It's not the point if the car or the setup is bad. The question is: is it possible to set up the car in pCars to react similarly as in that video?

Regarding cars stabilizing it self while sliding: does the pCars simulate downforce loss when the car goes sideways? Lack of it could be a simple example why high downforce cars "stabilize" themselves after high angle sliding sideways and doesn't loose control (I am not talking about LMP cars with the huge stabilizer in the rear).

jgaganas
17-05-2015, 08:05
As for the AI "care taking" discussion:

It's currently a lot easier to race/avoid AI (crazy line changes) in chase view (especially on wide-screen setups), compared to cockpit view (with realistic POV).

You see when they go in "committed line change mode" and take evasive actions early... instead of "wtf just happened"!?

So i quite understand some hardcore-simmers frustation with the current AI.

miagi
17-05-2015, 08:26
It's not the point if the car or the setup is bad. The question is: is it possible to set up the car in pCars to react similarly as in that video?

Regarding cars stabilizing it self while sliding: does the pCars simulate downforce loss when the car goes sideways? Lack of it could be a simple example why high downforce cars "stabilize" themselves after high angle sliding sideways and doesn't loose control (I am not talking about LMP cars with the huge stabilizer in the rear).

Sure it is, I drive the Z4 GT3 like in the view. 1 to 1 as in real life!

Losing downforce because of sliding sideways should make the slide easyer to catch. With less df because of a slide the car is reduced to it's mechanical gripso the sldie should go on because of less grip but also should be easyer to hold like on a road car. It all makes sense. I watch a lot of GT3 racing, but I don't know when I've seen a Z4 GT3 spinning off the last time...

The huge plates on the LMP1 cars are there to make the car corner better. Because the cars are so aerodynamic they have the problem that the air goes around it, that has the same effect as a ball hovering in an air stream (https://youtu.be/1zykcPv1O6I), the tires would make the car rotate but the air stream would make it goes straight (at higher speeds). To prevent the air from going around the car when it rotates they have that plates.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 08:48
Sure it is, I drive the Z4 GT3 like in the view. 1 to 1 as in real life!

Losing downforce because of sliding sideways should make the slide easyer to catch. With less df because of a slide the car is reduced to it's mechanical gripso the sldie should go on because of less grip but also should be easyer to hold like on a road car. It all makes sense.

No, it doesn't make sense. And you did 2 mistakes here.

1. Overall grip comes from mechanical one and from downforce. Downforce works with speed of air and moreover its exponential function.
If you get sliding you looses part of mechanical grip but also suddenly a lot of grip which comes from downforce. Where suddenly is a key word.
While downforce is present, tires do the job. But if tires are sliding means they are not able to produce grip on their own and then comes worse: additional grip from aero disappear makes whole system fail. It's like a chain reaction.
That's why it's harder to correct such behaviour.

2. Road cars are easier to driver on limit, or rather predict what will happen next not because of overall less grip but because of different tires and suspension.

Speaking about pCars physics, in my opinion there is too much grip. Don't know how much.. maybe 15-20%. It makes cars feel safe as in real world - I agree. Overall feeling is very good and believable while normal driving and even racing driving. But some edge conditions cannot be met. For example try to burnout with GT3 car.
There was discussion on WMD forum about it and devs put a lot of arguments against this thesis: pre-warmed tires, long gearing (defined by GT3 specs) even such like "sport car has sport tires and is not intended to slide" or "our pro consultants know better" (bo none of them answered question is it easy to spin tires or not, even if asked directly)
And then I gave them video of GT3 car pitting, changing tires and taking off. And you know what? it easily spun tires... with preheated tires, with long gearing, car of the same GT3 specs.
This has been completely ignored and stated that discussion is over.

I know that changing tire physical properties to provide proper burnouts would affect overall feeling. Cars would be harder to control while driving. So, maybe the decision is justified. But it gives some light on how realistic simulation pCars is.

unknwn
17-05-2015, 09:06
No, it doesn't make sense. And you did mistake in 2 points.

1. Overall grip comes from mechanical one and from downforce. Downforce works with speed and moreover its exponential function. If you get sliding you looses part of mechanical grip but also suddenly a lot of grip which comes from downforce. Where suddenly is a key word. That's why it's harder to correct such behaviour.

2. Road cars are easier to driver on limit, or rather predict what will happen next not because of overall less grip but because of different tires and suspension.

Exactly. I have seen some GT series "crash compilations". Usually then the rear starts sliding and the driver didn't mange to correct it, the rear continues pivot/spin very quickly often resulting 180, 360, 720 spin or worse. The slide "kicks in" suddenly after you loose grip at the rear. In pCars cars high downforce cars just keeps sliding sideways predictably and controllably (for example at 45° angle or higher). Normally you would need increased steering angle to control such slides (like drift cars).

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 10:44
First at all its nice to see that after a night of sleep this thread finaly turned into a nice discussion without any offense.


I do agree there seems to be a subtle, but definitely noticeable magical force that stops your car from spinning in this game. There have been a lot of times where I was in what would be an unrecoverable skid in any other sim game I've played, but somehow my car magically goes back in the correct direction just by lifting and counter steering. I don't think it's the setup of the car, it just feels like what happens should be impossible. In Gran Turismo this magic force was called "skid recovery force", and you could turn it off. The game would be more rewarding and enjoyable for me if this didn't happen.

I never played Gran Turismo (shame on me) but i think this describes very good what i'm feeling. With GT and road cars.

miagi
17-05-2015, 11:57
sliding means they are not able to produce grip on their own
No... the grip of a tire can only drop down to sliding friction, that is lower than peak friction and static friction but not zero.



And then I gave them video of GT3 car pitting, changing tires and taking off. And you know what? it easily spun tires... with preheated tires, with long gearing, car of the same GT3 specs.
The ground just in front of the can be different termac or even concrete that has a significant lower friction coefficient. Even if it's the same race termac, it might be dirty from pit work or at least green and not rubbered in, slick tires are very vulnerable to that.
Also a race tire peak grip is somewhere between 8 and 12% (maybe more) slip ratio, so ofc there is some wheel spin when the car needs all the grip as it takes of, still that is not the same a what ppl call "burnout". I've seen GT3 cars having some trouble doing donuts in real life, Mainly because it's not that easy for them to do a burnout, once the car goes sideways and side slip come onto the tire too, it is easyer for the car to spin the tires and it manages to do bit a donut.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 12:16
No... the grip of a tire can only drop down to sliding friction, that is lower than peak friction and static friction but not zero.

You forgot about current energy/momentum valid for current car state which must be handled by tires.
We are talking about the moment when car is getting sideways loosing downforce. Note that speed and also whole kinetic energy remains.
Such situation is comparable with removing all wings from a car at once (depending on angle, but as I said lose is exponential). Tires alone would not been able to manage such forces even without sliding. This is worse because we are consider emergency situation when a lot of forces which had supported the car while ago have rapidly decreased.



The ground just in front of the can be different termac or even concrete that has a significant lower friction coefficient. Even if it's the same race termac, it might be dirty from pit work or at least green and not rubbered in, slick tires are very vulnerable to that.
Also a race tire peak grip is somewhere between 8 and 12% (maybe more) slip ratio, so ofc there is some wheel spin when the car needs all the grip as it takes of, still that is not the same a what ppl call "burnout". I've seen GT3 cars having some trouble doing donuts in real life, Mainly because it's not that easy for them to do a burnout, once the car goes sideways and side slip come onto the tire too, it is easyer for the car to spin the tires and it manages to do bit a donut.

Sorry to say but those are excuses only. Does pCars implements perfect clean from dust, rubbered to get more grip tarmac? If so then why? I though it should give similar experience to real one.
Donuts are a bit different things. But burnout while going out straight is easily possible in all GT cars, doesn't matter tire temp, or tarmac conditions. Torque reserve is obvious. We are talking about burnout on 1st gear. In real you can easily spin tires even on 2nd gear. In pCars you cannot on 1st gear.

miagi
17-05-2015, 13:02
Still a burnout is not the same as some tire slip on taking off. I've seen a GT3 car having trouble doing donuts, a burnout is even more difficult.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 13:08
"some" tire slip appears only because driver uses throttle pedal in moderate way to get from pitbox as quickly as possible.
And on my video he spinning tires for dozen of meters. Think what would happen while flooring.

KK78
17-05-2015, 13:54
Console wise, PCars is the closest thing to a proper sim, whether it is a true sim is open to interpretation. Next would be GT & Forza

SeaNNyT
17-05-2015, 16:20
If they can patch in proper tire physics and loss of grip, the game will be closer to sim than it currently is.

yusupov
17-05-2015, 16:27
useful post...

Gassolini
20-05-2015, 10:25
Yes, important is, to allow real world driver who is working as consultant to get used to simulation and understand all those differences.
I believe we are talking about the same thing and we agree with each other.
It's a good thing then, that Ben Collins and Nicolas Hamilton [1] are both very much used to simulations :D


[1] Ben and Nic have been the main pro driver consultants throughout the project (ref. (http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/project-cars-driver-feedback-compilation-available/#more-6777)).

bmanic
25-05-2015, 21:13
.. not to mention that Rene Rast also has extensive sim experience (why do you guys think he was testing for Fanatec? eh?). According to his own words he has tried both Assetto Corsa and iRacing and "politely" suggested that they were not for him. Yeah, we all know what that means.

You guys suggesting that real racers can not understand simulators without a lot of experience are fooling yourselves and completely belittling the effort it takes to be a world class racing driver. Do you seriously believe that these people haven't explored every single avenue there is to get better at winning? Winning is EVERYTHING for these drivers. You can bet your hairy behinds that the racing drivers of today have tried every single simulator on the market. Anything to get an edge is worth pursuing.

LukeC
26-05-2015, 02:55
I was wondering how long it would take before we had "is Pcars a real sim or not?" thread. By definition anything that attempts to simulate real life is a sim. Therefore the Codemasters f1 games, Gran Turismo and Forza are sims . The only problem is that they simulate fewer elements than things like Iracing, Rfactor, Assetto Corsa and Project Cars. As for whether iRacing is more realistic than Pcars or whether that honour goes to Asssetto Corsa or even Rfactor, the reality is that unless you are an experienced racing driver who has taken all sorts of cars to the absolute limit on racetracks around the world, you simply cannot comment.

I remember a few years ago Tiff Needell tested iRacing, GT5, Forza, Simraceway (If memory serves) and Dirt 3 on Fifth gear. His verdict was that none of them were particularly realistic, and this included iRacing. He actually seemed to be struggling to drive the cars in iRacing, which I found remarkable given that he has so much real-life driving and racing experience under his belt.

I also remember a few years ago iRacing had real-life racing drivers test some of the cars in the game and their conclusion was that racing cars in real life have a lot more grip than the same cars in iRacing. iRacing subsequently changed the tyre model to give the cars more grip, which resulted in a bit of a backlash from the iRacing community who wanted the old tyre model back as it felt more realistic to them.

I also remember quite a few complaints on the iRacing forums a few years ago from people who have driven real racing cars on racetracks saying that the fundamental physics in iRacing were flawed. The biggest issue was the way some of the cars increased the radius of their trajectory around a corner during trail-braking, and the way they decreased the radius round a bend during acceleration. Now, if you have even driven a racing car, even a road car, you will know that this is exactly the opposite of what happens in real life.

For that reason I always find it somewhat amusing when people talk of iRacing as some kind benchmark for realism, and if somebody makes a sim where they cars behave slightly differently and are easier to drive due to more grip then suddenly that cannot be considered a real sim. As far as Project Cars is concerned in my opinion it is a sim -- and a good one at that. To me the feeling of actually driving a car on a track, and finding the limit and predicting what will happen under different circumstances is the best in Project Cars. Admittedly it did take me quite a bit of fiddling to get the force feedback setting to this level (I can feel every bump, kerb and seam in the track now). My advice would be just to enjoy it -- I doubt that a sim will ever be EXACTLY like real life anyway, no matter how complex the physics model and how many calculations it performs per second.

Howie
26-05-2015, 03:12
That's review by "Empty Box", a known hater of SMS from the beginning of pCars inception. He's a big backer of iRacing, and pretty much puts down everything else. Especially any Sim that presents a challenge to iRacing's mythical, but unsubstantiated place at the top of the Sim's. They got to keep that place unchallenged to sell cars and tracks for 15.00 USD each. Plus sub.

Howie
26-05-2015, 03:17
I remember watching Empty Box do a whole 1 hour online race at Mid Ohio, on iRacing. Lightly holding his wheel with a couple fingers on one hand. He passed the whole field and won the race! While giving commentary the whole race. LOL! His head is so far in the clouds, he wouldn't know what a real car felt like in a million years.

lacslyer
26-05-2015, 03:38
That's review by "Empty Box", a known hater of SMS from the beginning of pCars inception. He's a big backer of iRacing, and pretty much puts down everything else. Especially any Sim that presents a challenge to iRacing's mythical, but unsubstantiated place at the top of the Sim's. They got to keep that place unchallenged to sell cars and tracks for 15.00 USD each. Plus sub.

Uh... not to argue with you, but I question what videos you listen to if you honestly think that. He's known for being a huge fan of rFactor 2 and Game Stock Car as well. He also gave insight on pCARS during it's beta and enjoyed the game in every video he covered of it up until it's release. So if you're going to call someone out on being biased you might want to state facts rather than produce biased information yourself.

Alan Dallas
26-05-2015, 04:03
Thinking that pcars is that masterpiece of driving physics is just naiv. Who ever thinks this has never even pushed his/her own car to its limit.
Really? Tell that to Ben Collins to his face and watch how fast he shuts you down.

Naive indeed there buddy.

Alan Dallas
26-05-2015, 04:14
I also remember quite a few complaints on the iRacing forums a few years ago from people who have driven real racing cars on racetracks saying that the fundamental physics in iRacing were flawed. The biggest issue was the way some of the cars increased the radius of their trajectory around a corner during trail-braking, and the way they decreased the radius round a bend during acceleration. Now, if you have even driven a racing car, even a road car, you will know that this is exactly the opposite of what happens in real life.

It is that exact reason I stopped using iRacing 1 week after I started a 3 month free trial. That and tires just letting go with no warning from the FFB. Then I saw a home video that Joey Logano posts racing in iRacing when the back end came out and spun him just for letting off the throttle a bit. His comment out loud, on camera? "Yaaaaa, that does NOT happen in real life. Fix yer shit iRacing."

myheadhurts
26-05-2015, 04:16
Uh... not to argue with you, but I question what videos you listen to if you honestly think that. He's known for being a huge fan of rFactor 2 and Game Stock Car as well. He also gave insight on pCARS during it's beta and enjoyed the game in every video he covered of it up until it's release. So if you're going to call someone out on being biased you might want to state facts rather than produce biased information yourself.

And he gave Dirt Rally a great review, even though it's a codemasters game (and he doesn't like their other offerings).

It is a little bit disappointing that so many are quick to resort to ad hominem attacks on anybody who dares state this isn't the greatest game ever. I like the game, but a lot of the complaints are legit.

TenthDan
26-05-2015, 04:31
The fact that we're arguing with such vigour suggests to me that most of the current sims (GSC/AC/rF2/pCARS) are *close enough* to the real thing for those of us that don't have real life experience (and those that do that aren't at/over the limit constantly!) that we are all arguing about our expectations of certain situations, not purely on whether the behaviours are possible or not.

We are at the point where the finer factors are influencing discussion rather than physical concepts: i.e. car setups vs real life, track conditions, tyre compounds, driver skill, ffb feel and its effects.

I've seen discussions of pCARS where people can't get cars to spin, I've seen discussions where people are spinning constantly, no grip/too much grip, too fast/too slow, etc. I've seen the same for other sims.

One thing I have noticed is many of those experienced with car tuning (and no not Forza/GT 'tuning') are finding their setup tweaks are having the expected effect on car behaviour. That says something is working very right.

Howie
26-05-2015, 05:19
And he gave Dirt Rally a great review, even though it's a codemasters game (and he doesn't like their other offerings).

It is a little bit disappointing that so many are quick to resort to ad hominem attacks on anybody who dares state this isn't the greatest game ever. I like the game, but a lot of the complaints are legit. I'm pretty sure I remember Empty Box stating on one of his early videos of pCars. "Everyone knows, I'm no fan of SMS". And under his latest video he remarked. "I think I can live without pCars2! LOL" ? He also made that questionable video about the "hype" behind pCars. Saying he had no love for it. So I'm not personally attacking Empty. He's been attacking pCars.

JDFSSS
26-05-2015, 05:58
I'm pretty sure I remember Empty Box stating on one of his early videos of pCars. "Everyone knows, I'm no fan of SMS". And under his latest video he remarked. "I think I can live without pCars2! LOL" ? He also made that questionable video about the "hype" behind pCars. Saying he had no love for it. So I'm not personally attacking Empty. He's been attacking pCars.

I think empty box has been pretty fair about pCars. Just because he came to the conclusion that he doesn't like pCars right now, doesn't mean hes a "hater" or that his opinion is invalid. I think some of the WMD members should tone it down with the defending pCars at all costs or trying to discredit people with valid complaints. The fact is, there are a lot of things wrong with this game, but it has potential to be a great game eventually.

LukeC
26-05-2015, 06:42
The point is that his opinion may well be invalid; although he is obviously allowed to have one. Unless empty box is a world class driver who has driven all sorts of racing cars at the absolute limit and beyond, he should refrain from making comments that create the impression that Pcars is not a sim because the cars in it behave differently at the limit and seem to have more grip than in iRacing. How does he know that the cars in iRacing have EXACTLY the right amount of grip and that they behave identically to their real-life counterparts when pushed to the limit? Personally I doubt it.

c172fccc
26-05-2015, 06:47
I don't think Emptybox is an Iracing fanboy and I don't think he is an SMS/pCARS hater, give the guy a break with this.

He doesn't like pCARS, so what? People have to realise that his review is completely subjective, he says what he thinks. He thinks that the game is unrealistic based on his experience with simracing. Is this suppose to convince anyone that the game is unrealistic? I don't know for sure if the game is really realistic or not (but it is certainly not arcade), but I won't base my opinion on a simracer's thought.

Sankyo
26-05-2015, 06:55
If only people would simply state "I like game X better" and stop there, instead of pulling out the realism argument all the time. Time has shown that every game, sorry, race sim, did things right and did things wrong, yet its fans stuck with it and its claim to realism no matter what. That already says enough IMO.

It's not about absolute realism since 99% of the armchair racers have little clue about that (I can hear 1,000,000 hardcore sim racers proclaiming now that they are the 1% ;)), but about perception and ultimately just about enjoyment. Just play the game that you enjoy most for whatever reason, and let others enjoy their favourite race sim without judgment of either the game or the person playing it.

nomen nescio
26-05-2015, 07:03
pCars's physics engine is definitely a sim! I have never encountered a game that simulates understeer and a 4-wheel slide so accurately. I'm impressed SMS. I hope that AC does it also, which I haven't found out so far.

For refference and not to brag, I have 10 years of real life experience in car control.

JDFSSS
26-05-2015, 07:06
The point is that his opinion may well be invalid; although he is obviously allowed to have one. Unless empty box is a world class driver who has driven all sorts of racing cars at the absolute limit and beyond, he should refrain from making comments that create the impression that Pcars is not a sim because the cars in it behave differently at the limit and seem to have more grip than in iRacing. How does he know that the cars in iRacing have EXACTLY the right amount of grip and that they behave identically to their real-life counterparts when pushed to the limit? Personally I doubt it.

I think most of his complaints with pCars don't have much to do with the physics. If I remember correctly, he didn't really say much was wrong with the physics other than maybe some minor criticism. Most of his complaints had to do with other things.

Shnoo
26-05-2015, 07:23
I think most of his complaints with pCars don't have much to do with the physics. If I remember correctly, he didn't really say much was wrong with the physics other than maybe some minor criticism. Most of his complaints had to do with other things.

Exactly. But this is how things work online say one thing about the physics and baaaam uber flame mode activated. The reason he doesn't like pCars is mostly the single player mode. The AI is crap compared to some other sims blablbalblbalba.......
I think he is a bit too much into iRacing. Don't understand me wrong i think its a great sime but it still has its problems too. Still i can understand his opinion on pCars. I don't like se SP too.

TenthDan
26-05-2015, 07:29
For refference and not to brag, I have 10 years of real life experience in car control.

So do I, though admittedly that's just been driving to the train station, shops or a small holiday, but still!

Sorry I just had to :p

nomen nescio
26-05-2015, 07:34
So do I, though admittedly that's just been driving to the train station, shops or a small holiday, but still!

Sorry I just had to :p Lol! :D


Me, here >>>> JESCO (http://www.jesco.be/) and one extensive course in the snow here >>> Peugeot school (http://www.peugeot-driving-academy.be/site/index.php?surf_lang=nl)

jgaganas
26-05-2015, 09:25
I think most of his complaints with pCars don't have much to do with the physics. If I remember correctly, he didn't really say much was wrong with the physics other than maybe some minor criticism. Most of his complaints had to do with other things.

THIS... The reviewer (EB) never said "not a sim" (IMHO you have to be deaf, dumb, blind to state "not a sim").

EB had his issues with the AI and with (in his opinion "pointless") Career-Mode, otherwise he would rate it 8.5/10 (which is a pretty decent score, also coming from a "hardcore-simmer", and not a "hate-review" at all, again IMHO).

bmanic
26-05-2015, 17:23
I think empty box has been pretty fair about pCars. Just because he came to the conclusion that he doesn't like pCars right now, doesn't mean hes a "hater" or that his opinion is invalid. I think some of the WMD members should tone it down with the defending pCars at all costs or trying to discredit people with valid complaints. The fact is, there are a lot of things wrong with this game, but it has potential to be a great game eventually.

You clearly haven't been reading his twitter ramblings or watch the earlier videos. He made up his mind a long long time ago. Same thing with Assetto Corsa when it was released. He was completely unfair to the game.

SpeedLimitUnknown
26-05-2015, 23:44
While I enjoy the videos Empty Box puts out, he is strictly a Sim racer with no real world race experience. His opinion on any given racing game is simply that, HIS opinion.

When Ben Collins, who has been racing in the real world for over 20 years in various types of cars has an opinion on any particular racing sim, which one holds more value? He has repeated stated Project Cars is very realistic in terms of feel and the way the cars react to his inputs with a wheel. And that is good enough for me.

No racing sim is perfect. All I know is I'm enjoying the heck out of PCars and I've played many many Sims over the last two decades along with equal amounts of real world driving but it doesn't matter, this is the Internet and people can claim to be anything they want. The Stig IS real, lol, yet people don't seem to accept what he has to say about PCars because it isn't in line with what their own beliefs are about this or any other racing sim. Sounds kind of like religion!

Patrik Marek
27-05-2015, 00:32
When Ben Collins, who has been racing in the real world for over 20 years in various types of cars has an opinion on any particular racing sim, which one holds more value? He has repeated stated Project Cars is very realistic in terms of feel and the way the cars react to his inputs with a wheel. And that is good enough for me.

but he was payed for that oppinion. he gladly sacrificed his good name just to make some pocket money! :P
at least that's what some of those haters say

that being said, there are car/track combos that open up questions, but then there are also some that I haven't experienced better feeling before.

pCARS certainly have things to improve, but physics is very solid, therefore not an area I would say needs to be fixed otherwise it's arcade
calling it not a sim is same as colling Assetto Corsa , rF2 not sims

not a sim, yeah right
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27676-xbox-one-car-physics-Ford-Mustang-Boss-GT4&p=946491&viewfull=1#post946491

myheadhurts
27-05-2015, 01:08
I'm pretty sure I remember Empty Box stating on one of his early videos of pCars. "Everyone knows, I'm no fan of SMS". And under his latest video he remarked. "I think I can live without pCars2! LOL" ? He also made that questionable video about the "hype" behind pCars. Saying he had no love for it. So I'm not personally attacking Empty. He's been attacking pCars.

Right, and he's also been a heavy critic of codemasters games. And then CM put out a game he really likes (Dirt Rally) and he's full of praise of it. Which sounds like somebody who is critical of games he doesn't like, and praises games he does like.


You clearly haven't been reading his twitter ramblings or watch the earlier videos. He made up his mind a long long time ago. Same thing with Assetto Corsa when it was released. He was completely unfair to the game.

Or you've made up your mind about him a long long time ago. His complaints about project cars were nothing to do with how "sim" it is, and yet that's somehow what everybody is focusing on.

lacslyer
27-05-2015, 03:24
I'm pretty sure I remember Empty Box stating on one of his early videos of pCars. "Everyone knows, I'm no fan of SMS". And under his latest video he remarked. "I think I can live without pCars2! LOL" ? He also made that questionable video about the "hype" behind pCars. Saying he had no love for it. So I'm not personally attacking Empty. He's been attacking pCars.

You are personally attacking him, by stating untrue information about him in order to attack his character to invalidate his opinion. Most of which you were completely wrong about.

The "questionable" hype video about Project CARS was a completely valid point of view whether you agree with it or not.

lacslyer
27-05-2015, 03:29
While I enjoy the videos Empty Box puts out, he is strictly a Sim racer with no real world race experience. His opinion on any given racing game is simply that, HIS opinion.

When Ben Collins, who has been racing in the real world for over 20 years in various types of cars has an opinion on any particular racing sim, which one holds more value? He has repeated stated Project Cars is very realistic in terms of feel and the way the cars react to his inputs with a wheel. And that is good enough for me.

No racing sim is perfect. All I know is I'm enjoying the heck out of PCars and I've played many many Sims over the last two decades along with equal amounts of real world driving but it doesn't matter, this is the Internet and people can claim to be anything they want. The Stig IS real, lol, yet people don't seem to accept what he has to say about PCars because it isn't in line with what their own beliefs are about this or any other racing sim. Sounds kind of like religion!

The whole opinion that because Ben Collins thinks this is a sim doesn't necessarily invalidate other peoples' opinions on the game and should really stop. He should not be the be all end all reason why people consider this a sim. Stop criticizing people for having their opinions about the game as though the only opinion that matters is Ben Collins'.

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 03:55
The whole opinion that because Ben Collins thinks this is a sim doesn't necessarily invalidate other peoples' opinions on the game and should really stop. He should not be the be all end all reason why people consider this a sim. Stop criticizing people for having their opinions about the game as though the only opinion that matters is Ben Collins'.

Ben isn't the only professional driver. There have been multiples of people with objective experience who have all made valid comments. I haven't seen any, if they even exist, of people with objective experience in any given car making disparaging statements on the handling. It doesn't invalidate an *opinion* but the subjectivity of someone who can prove their background will always trump the subjectivity of a keyboard jockey on the internet.

It would be like some random guy looking at the sky and telling the weather to a meteorologist. Maybe the meteorologist didn't get the right forecast for the day. But he has a resume that says he's qualified to give it. So he's going to matter more.

JessicaWalter
27-05-2015, 03:56
im looking for the argument clinic.

SpeedLimitUnknown
27-05-2015, 04:59
Ben isn't the only professional driver. There have been multiples of people with objective experience who have all made valid comments. I haven't seen any, if they even exist, of people with objective experience in any given car making disparaging statements on the handling. It doesn't invalidate an *opinion* but the subjectivity of someone who can prove their background will always trump the subjectivity of a keyboard jockey on the internet.

It would be like some random guy looking at the sky and telling the weather to a meteorologist. Maybe the meteorologist didn't get the right forecast for the day. But he has a resume that says he's qualified to give it. So he's going to matter more.

Exactly. And this was the point I was trying to make in my hastily written post! ☺

bmanic
27-05-2015, 20:55
Or you've made up your mind about him a long long time ago. His complaints about project cars were nothing to do with how "sim" it is, and yet that's somehow what everybody is focusing on.

Oh I've been following Matt's "persona" for years, on the track, off the track (iRacing forums), youtube and twitter. I'm pretty solid on being able to "interpret" his message/agenda when he has one (hint: he always does). But hey, that's my opinion.. you go right on and keep being his groupie. Doesn't matter to me one bit. :)

lacslyer
27-05-2015, 21:58
Ben isn't the only professional driver. There have been multiples of people with objective experience who have all made valid comments. I haven't seen any, if they even exist, of people with objective experience in any given car making disparaging statements on the handling. It doesn't invalidate an *opinion* but the subjectivity of someone who can prove their background will always trump the subjectivity of a keyboard jockey on the internet.

It would be like some random guy looking at the sky and telling the weather to a meteorologist. Maybe the meteorologist didn't get the right forecast for the day. But he has a resume that says he's qualified to give it. So he's going to matter more.

I never disagreed with an experienced opinion being more meaningful than someone else, just that it doesn't necessarily invalidate another opinion. My point was someone shouldn't rely solely on a single person's opinion, regardless of how experienced it is, to form an opinion on something. So Ben Collins saying that this is very much a sim shouldn't be the only factor in your opinion on the matter. Furthermore, it shouldn't be used as the sole argument against opinions you disagree with.

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 22:34
I never disagreed with an experienced opinion being more meaningful than someone else, just that it doesn't necessarily invalidate another opinion. My point was someone shouldn't rely solely on a single person's opinion, regardless of how experienced it is, to form an opinion on something. So Ben Collins saying that this is very much a sim shouldn't be the only factor in your opinion on the matter. Furthermore, it shouldn't be used as the sole argument against opinions you disagree with.

If someone says "This is a sim, there are these reasons...." and makes a list of things they think make it a sim. It's easy to counter with "No I don't think it does those things/is a sim" and so the other person says "well, someone with experience disagrees" and then we end up here. People are going to use that argument to win, and they are, going to 'win', because until some other famous guy whose name gets spouted all over internet forums and has some objective experience says "Oh yeah? Well it sucks." then there's just no opinionated countering any normal old internet user can do that trumps the opinion of someone whose opinion is actually worth something.

It doesn't 'invalidate'. But it is more 'valuable'. That's why people rely on it. Whether or not you're frustrated by it.

I find these kinds of arguments pointless. Either you like the game, or you don't. Or you think it's a sim, or you don't. Arguing why you feel one way or the other with people who feel differently is just promoting toxic debates to happen. Yet it's the one thing that drives the internet since its birth.

RobMUFC1987
27-05-2015, 22:38
All I'll say on the matter is that its the most realistic driving/racing game on console

lacslyer
27-05-2015, 22:44
If someone says "This is a sim, there are these reasons...." and makes a list of things they think make it a sim. It's easy to counter with "No I don't think it does those things/is a sim" and so the other person says "well, someone with experience disagrees" and then we end up here. People are going to use that argument to win, and they are, going to 'win', because until some other famous guy whose name gets spouted all over internet forums and has some objective experience says "Oh yeah? Well it sucks." then there's just no opinionated countering any normal old internet user can do that trumps the opinion of someone whose opinion is actually worth something.

It doesn't 'invalidate'. But it is more 'valuable'. That's why people rely on it. Whether or not you're frustrated by it.

I find these kinds of arguments pointless. Either you like the game, or you don't. Or you think it's a sim, or you don't. Arguing why you feel one way or the other with people who feel differently is just promoting toxic debates to happen. Yet it's the one thing that drives the internet since its birth.

I understand and agree with you, was just making the point that these sort of discussions are actually more beneficial when people don't rely upon other seemingly more informed opinions to get their point across. Particularly when that opinion seems to dictate their own more than anything else.

Andy Apex
27-05-2015, 23:39
LOL driving from the hood of your car and you call it a SIM. LOL

Shinzah
28-05-2015, 00:12
I understand and agree with you, was just making the point that these sort of discussions are actually more beneficial when people don't rely upon other seemingly more informed opinions to get their point across. Particularly when that opinion seems to dictate their own more than anything else.

Open discussion is always far more beneficial =)


LOL driving from the hood of your car and you call it a SIM. LOL

Sim or not, does how people enjoy their software really matter to their own perceptions of it?

It's a very apples, oranges statement that is.

If someone says "This ice cream tastes like the most vanilla ice cream I ever tasted." would you say "Yeah but, you're licking it WRONG!"

Patrik Marek
28-05-2015, 01:48
these arguments again,

so people with no real life experience calling it not a sim, because cars they never driven don't behave as they think they should, yet someone who has lot of experience saying that it's the most advanced simulation has no worth ?

there was another guy here running a real MustanGT4 saying how impressed he is with the one in pCARS having exactly the same characteristics as the real one dones, again ? not worth anything ?

just becasue it doesn't handle the way you expect, doesn't make it notSim
even if it's a bad sim ( which it clearly isn't) , it doesn't make it bad sim,

but it doesn't really matter anyhow. Who does define what is sim and what is not ?? even gran turismo is sim because it's trying to simulate behaviour of real car,

games like NFS series or The Crew are called arcade, because the driving it's the biggest reason to play those games, they are more about having fun, if you guys want to put the pCARS in the same group, well nobody can stop you,

but at least don't try to make your arguments without any proof,


and yes, it doesn't invalidate anyones oppinion, if I see a green door and say "hey, there are some green door there" , it doens't invalidate someone's oppinion who says that "no, they are blue" , however guy who has been painting door for years says " yeah, they are green, the most green from all the other doors" , I guess that will make the door green more then blue , won't it ?

it's really pointless,

there are people who "say" don't have properly setup FFB and sudenly their impression of the game is " hey this sucks, totally arcade rubbish, can't feel anything" ? and someone else with correct FFB ( or the FFB that he likes) " this is the best sim ever" ?
and it's the same physics, only different perception of FFB, of what it should be etc? and guys start to argue about physics, not FFB ???

same thing with Dirt Rally, people complaining about it being rubbish arcade, but after some FFB tweak " hey, this is actually pretty good" ?? see my point? people judge things and call it wrong names, they don't like FFB and they comment on physics.

just because one game has better FFB to your liking, it doesn't make it's simulation more realistic/accurate.
people should realize that if they are commenting about what they LIKE or DISLIKE has nothing to do with the code underneath

if the tire model is really advanced ( what SMS says it is ) , just because the car doens't behave the way you are used to, and FFB doesn't emulate your favorite game, it doesn't make this advanced tire model + FFB crap and notSIM

in the end, it doesn't really matter though,
but I'm surprised that so many people are trying to be smarter then people who actually run these cars in real life

MULTIVITZ
28-05-2015, 02:06
All the cars are accurate representations, it's hard to tell on some because of the slick tyres, but I've never heard anyone say the cars don't represent the real thing. Whos stupid enough to argue otherwise needs to get out more often! imho

unknwn
28-05-2015, 16:13
pCars is definitely a sim. How many things are simulated and how accurate is another question. For example Karts are not realistic. Non laser scanned tracks aren't that accurate (even thought Ben Collins boasts accuracy of tracks in the interview). You can find plenty of negatives for all sims.

Can someone point out where Ben Collins mentioned that Project Cars is a better/more realistic sim than other top sims in particular? In his interview he isn't really specific and only mentions titles which are not even close to rF2/GSCE/AC.
General expression of pCars being very realistic doesn't imply that other sims are unrealistic and vice versa. Top sims have something that they do best regarding simuliation. There is no sim that has it all.

Psychomatrix
28-05-2015, 16:30
Now with patch the cars on xbox handle much better. Cars like the lotus 72d, audi r8 or the mustang gt4 are much more driveable. Because you can now react to oversteer. One other thing is that a lot of cars have default setups that make the easier to drive. But thats the great thing by project cars. If you want you can make the car with setup changes much more challenging to drive. The game gives you a lot of freedom to find the handling you like. The game goes on consoles much further than all the other games. It will take time to explore all little details. So i think it takes more than 3 weeks to give a statment. The default setups are chossen that casual gamers find a way in the game. But like i said there's a lot more to explore.

Roger Prynne
28-05-2015, 16:35
pCars is definitely a sim. How much things are simulated and how accurate is another question. For example Karts are not realistic. Non laser scanned tracks aren't that accurate (even thought Ben Collins boasts accuracy of tracks in the interview). You can find plenty of negatives for all sims.

Can someone point out where Ben Collins mentioned that Project Cars is a better/more realistic sim than other top sims in particular? In his interview he isn't really specific and only mentions titles which are not even close to rF2/GSCE/AC.
General expression of pCars being very realistic doesn't imply that other sims are unrealistic and vice versa. Top sims has something that they do best regarding simuliation. There is no sim that has it all.

Don't think we are allowed to as I think it was on the WMD forum.