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cossie29
16-05-2015, 16:36
Right guys i have been in this forum since friday launch and 1 thing is becoming very clear and rather annoying....
A lot of people on here play this on pc with a wheel or a wheel with a console!
And the snobbery is appaling,The Wheel brigade seem to think we controller using gamers are beneath them and i have seen somewhere that we are obv only arcade racers,I play with a controller on a ps4, having a wheel does not make you better than me or the next guy who uses a controller, some of us have lives and possibley wifes, children etc, and cannot afford or like me i could go out tommprrow and buy the best wheel on the market with every extra going but i do not have the room! i am also not obsessed with gaming i have a real life and REAL responsabilities first and foremost!

Just a moan as we are meant to be a community so less of the snobbery guys!

softy94
16-05-2015, 16:39
tbh its always gonna be that way some people think they are better, people may have wheels but doesnt mean they will be better, i know aload of people who use wheels yet im faster than same goes with'the PC master race' just ignore them alot of them are probably teens or kids

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 16:43
@cossie29
I think you get this wrong way.
It's not about who is better or worse, more pro or arcade.

It's just about the title itself which drifts in simulation direction rather than simplified racing game.
Could you imagine driving real car using tiny joysticks? I'm not. Not speaking about racing.

That's why you may find steering wheel to be suggested controller and a lot of problems with driving might originate in using other controllers then wheel.

Of course game developers should/could do their best to implement support for other controllers, but you cannot blame them if it doesn't work as you expect. It's just a nature of realistic simulation which cannot be controlled by joysticks or keyboard with the same accuracy as using steering wheel.

Srt8 300c
16-05-2015, 16:45
Im on xbox one and on bavarian legend (driver network) someone has a 1.45 lap.... using a controller.
Number 1 ranked on leaderboards!
Infact the top 4 are using a controller, the fastest person with a wheel is 5th place 1.45.6
I cant break into top 300 with a wheel!!
These people are god-like!
:confused:

Bleis
16-05-2015, 16:47
Most control pad players, I have raced with, tend to be in less control, using much wider track....

cossie29
16-05-2015, 16:51
I mean more about the seeming negative attitude towards control users from wheel users! I find the controller ok to use, not got any problems since i set it up properly!

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 16:53
Tiky uses a controller and is pretty much on top of every racing game leaderboard :D There are people who can use the sticks amazingly accurately. I myself am amazed how well pCARS plays with the controller, it is not like some ppl seem to think that we can only use 2 positions on it (left/right) ;) But yeah, as for snobbery, that will always be around no matter what. Like softy said, just ignore such behaviour it's not worth your time.

Dorny
16-05-2015, 17:29
Its harder with a gamepad pad purely down to steering, because the finesse isn't there with a stick which has only 3cm horizontal movement compared to a steering wheel's 360 degrees of rotation. So this makes it alot harder to be smooth in steering input. I've been playing Pcars for a while now with a pad and can keep control of the car, produce good laps times and most importantly be competitive with people with steering wheels. But I will admit my or any other gamepad persons movement is always going to generally appear erratic and jerky to a wheel user, so it appears as if we are out of control and its hard to judge if you want to pass as, our car movement jerks around rather than smoothly moves across. This is where wheel users need to learn that slightly erratic movement does not mean OUT OF CONTROL

I've definitely come across some proper wheel snobs that just give me abuse or tell me to leave because i am on a pad, because its ARCADE, NOT REALISTIC, IM OUT OF CONTROL, ITS EASIER WITH A GAMEPAD blah blah blah. But what I find funny is these guys that have a problem aren't that great in the first place, because when I do race them, I beat them cleanly and fairly or I look on leaderboard times and I've good much better times.

Wheel is a million times better than the pad (I have a G25), but I dont always have the time and space to setup the wheel for a 30 minute session to then have to pack it up again, so I use the pad quite alot. And while the wheel is better, I find it much easier to produce quicker laptimes purely down to being able to do smooth steering input.

As long as your in control of your car and are clean and fair driver, it doesn't matter what input device you use.

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 17:37
As long as your in control of your car and are clean and fair driver, it doesn't matter what input device you use.

+1 Well said!

Antiversum
16-05-2015, 17:45
+1 Well said!


Always depending on the point of view. Just did a race in a random lobby, came off the track and tried everything not to hinder the guy behind me when I came back. I think it was good (no crash tho!^^) but you never know how he feels it.

PeteUplink
16-05-2015, 17:51
I've played racing games and sims since Pitstop II on the Commodore 64. I've played pretty much every racing game since then on multiple formats, Megadrive, Amiga, PC, Playstation, Xbox, and more, and I've used all sorts of controllers including paddles, wheels, joysticks, joypads and keyboard. Over the years I've seen a lot of snobbery from other players about how you're not a real racer unless you're playing on a PC and using a wheel with all driver aids off... Nonsense! It doesn't matter what controller you use or what driver aids make you feel comfortable, so long as you drive fairly and cleanly.

JDFSSS
16-05-2015, 18:04
Well, lets be honest here. There's no disputing a wheel is better for controlling a race car than a controller (you don't see professional drivers using a controllers to control real race cars). I would never purchase a game like this intending on playing it with a controller. It wouldn't be enjoyable for me.

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 18:06
Always depending on the point of view. Just did a race in a random lobby, came off the track and tried everything not to hinder the guy behind me when I came back. I think it was good (no crash tho!^^) but you never know how he feels it.


Yeah true also. But. I am sure that most people can recognize a clean driver even if they do make a little mistake somewhere. Those are only natural and will come every now and then, but what I mean is if he saw you drive even for a little while it is pretty obvious how you are presenting yourself to the rest of the pack on the track. (kinda on this subject, I would love to have the names of my opponents shown in another color than white and possibly with a little larger font, seen a lot of clean drivers lately but haven't had the opportunity to see their names properly which annoys me somewhat. I like to kinda make a mental note of those ppl for the future.)

Hlspwn
16-05-2015, 18:37
Well, lets be honest here. There's no disputing a wheel is better for controlling a race car than a controller (you don't see professional drivers using a controllers to control real race cars). I would never purchase a game like this intending on playing it with a controller. It wouldn't be enjoyable for me.

+1

Except there's a distinct difference between R\L and a Game\sim. Because there is no geforces\physcial effects on the body, most of the information of what the cars doing is coming from the screen. That's why it really does not matter what control method you are using. If you have the ability to read the screen and translate that to what ever control method, with pin point accuracy and reactions then they are truly skilled.
Wheels have force feedback, so effectively should give you more information and better finnenes over the controls, but again it is down to the skill of the player.
Playing on line games I have witnessed super human skill in the flesh (GaRPy), some. People are natural, some of us really have to work at it.
If your fast, then your fast how ever you do it

Roger Prynne
16-05-2015, 18:57
It's all about how it FEELS with a wheel not about how well you can drive...it's the immersion factor compared to a pad.

I'm not a wheel snob just a realist.

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 19:05
See how this is already turning into a "which is better" topic ;D

o Mike V o
16-05-2015, 19:16
The wheel is obviously better if you like the immersion aspect of it. There is a certain degree of elitism among some, but don't be bothered by people like that. Some of the fastest people I know still use controllers. Me personally, I've been using controllers since Gran Turismo 1, so I'm very glad to finally have a wheel.

CustomInternals
16-05-2015, 19:20
I come from a long history of console racing games where I used only a controller. I only recently(1 1/2-2 years) got on the PC side of things(AC/PCars) with a borrowed wheel. I would say I was above average with a controller but not the Top 1% either. I fully believe that the wheel, after the learning curve, should make you a more consistent driver. At least it has for me. I also like the immersion that comes from a wheel/pedal set. What is better for the individual is purely opinion and trying to sway someone to think one is better over the other is stupid IMO. I will be the first to tell you my OPINION that I enjoy the wheel more but I won't tell you it's better for you. Just like everything else in life, there are countless variables that some people are effected by that other people might not be. Price, space, handicaps, personal opinion, skill, etc. all play into effect when it comes to which is better for YOU. If you like the controller better then by all means do your thing. The point that we are both enjoying the same game/experience should be the link that keeps us a strongly chained together community. The End.

Roger Prynne
16-05-2015, 19:23
It's got nothing to do with how fast you are, some of the pad users are really good and I respect that, all I'm saying is that a pad does not give you the same immersion feeling that a wheel does.
Do a 50 lap race with a wheel and your arms start to ache, you can also feel exactly what the car is doing at any given moment, the tires feel like real rubber, the curbs feel nice and bumpy... etc etc.
I'm not condemning pad users just saying it feels so much more real.

o Mike V o
16-05-2015, 19:26
I really don't see how someone can say a wheel isn't better than a controller, even when I was used a controller I knew the wheel would be a much better experience.

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 19:43
I really don't see how someone can say a wheel isn't better than a controller, even when I was used a controller I knew the wheel would be a much better experience.

Don't really see much people saying it, but the other way around a lot more. I would love to use my old wheel on ps4 but sony said nope. Until I get a new one I'm perfectly happy using the controller while still acknowledging the fact that I would be more immersed with the fheel (see what I did there :D )

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 19:49
There is another thing. Steering wheel gives more steering precision in constant way. Pad must not affect lap times - those might be even better due to faster response. But for sure it influences multiplayer experience of other drivers on the track.
Simply, driver who is using controller, has to constantly correct direction his car is heading. We can all see it on-line as smaller or bigger zig-zags performed by such cars.
For serious multiplayer wheel-to-wheel racing, it might be even dangerous.
That's why a lot of simracing leagues disallow usage of other controllers than steering wheels.

o Mike V o
16-05-2015, 19:54
You lose less speed in the corners when you can steer more smoothly.

PeteUplink
16-05-2015, 19:59
You can drive smooth with a pad if you know how. I've seen pad racers who are smoother than some wheel racers. Of course the wheel is better for the immersion, but a good driver is a good driver no matter what controller is used.

TRCThrobbinhood
16-05-2015, 20:24
I'm pretty quick with the pad, fastest pad user at Catalunya GP with the Formula A car, 20 something I think, but looking at the leaderboards wheel users are winning overall, It's not Forza where they were about even, steering with the pad does lose time here.

TRCThrobbinhood
16-05-2015, 20:27
You can drive smooth with a pad if you know how. I've seen pad racers who are smoother than some wheel racers. Of course the wheel is better for the immersion, but a good driver is a good driver no matter what controller is used.
I think you will find wheel users have the edge here, I think the best wheel users will beat the best pad racers, leaderboards suggest it overall.

kaa0s
16-05-2015, 20:31
I think you will find wheel users have the edge here, I think the best wheel users will beat the best pad racers, leaderboards suggest it overall.

Although seeing as you are on PC I think most of the quickest pad users are on consoles. I'm seeing pretty even boards so far.

EDIT. Granted there is less wheel users on console too so yeah.. my point might be moot :D

PeteUplink
16-05-2015, 20:41
Of course we have to also look at the fact that a PS4 or XBox controller is about 40-50 and a good wheel is at least twice that, so there's quite a bit of ego and trying to justify spending all that money on a games controller going on. After someone spends a lot of money on a gadget, they have to justify that purchase by beating their chests over it and saying that all other forms of controller are inadequate. It's a bit like those silly idiots that spend a fortune on gold plated HDMI and audio cables and then keep telling everyone that "You can really tell the difference, you know!"

MaXyM
16-05-2015, 20:50
Pad is just controller for other kind of games. it might be expensive if it represents its quality. But it doesn't matter in this case.
You can still use steering wheel in flight simulation and I never expect, wheel owner would grumble about bad experience while playing flight sim with the wheel.
Flight simulation controllers are dedicated for flight simulations, steering wheels are dedicated for racing simulations.
Pads are designed for quick access to any entertainment. But are not dedicated or specialized.

BTW what about keyboard players? I know very expensive keyboards. Is this a reason?

lacslyer
16-05-2015, 21:49
Of course we have to also look at the fact that a PS4 or XBox controller is about 40-50 and a good wheel is at least twice that, so there's quite a bit of ego and trying to justify spending all that money on a games controller going on. After someone spends a lot of money on a gadget, they have to justify that purchase by beating their chests over it and saying that all other forms of controller are inadequate. It's a bit like those silly idiots that spend a fortune on gold plated HDMI and audio cables and then keep telling everyone that "You can really tell the difference, you know!"

Your analogy doesn't make sense when a wheel actually provides a dramatic difference in gameplay for this game... The fact of the matter is it is inadequate for anyone looking for the fastest times to not use a wheel.

WARDOGZ.UK
16-05-2015, 22:26
Of course we have to also look at the fact that a PS4 or XBox controller is about 40-50 and a good wheel is at least twice that, so there's quite a bit of ego and trying to justify spending all that money on a games controller going on. After someone spends a lot of money on a gadget, they have to justify that purchase by beating their chests over it and saying that all other forms of controller are inadequate. It's a bit like those silly idiots that spend a fortune on gold plated HDMI and audio cables and then keep telling everyone that "You can really tell the difference, you know!"
You are an idiot


Your analogy doesn't make sense when a wheel actually provides a dramatic difference in gameplay for this game... The fact of the matter is it is inadequate for anyone looking for the fastest times to not use a wheel.
You are correct

nhitrac
16-05-2015, 22:45
I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm better because I have a wheel, nope. I will however say my immersion factor will be higher than those playing without a wheel even if they kick my ass in lap times.

For immersion, wheel beats keyboard/pad hands down.

Dorny
16-05-2015, 23:33
How did this thread turn into what is better wheel or pad?. The thread was never about that. Its blatantly obvious a wheel with a sim is going to be better. It was about the snobbery that can come from certain groups of wheel users, that they are better than gamepad players and look down at them or kick them from races. Racing communities are already fairly small for online play so why damage the potential of one from a pointless sense of superiority .

Where as long as your in control of your car and are a clean and fair driver, it doesn't matter what input device you use.

lacslyer
16-05-2015, 23:40
How did this thread turn into what is better wheel or pad?. The thread was never about that. Its blatantly obvious a wheel with a sim is going to be better. It was about the snobbery that can come from certain groups of wheel users, that they are better than gamepad players and look down at them or kick them from races. Racing communities are already fairly small for online play so why damage the potential of one from a pointless sense of superiority .

Where as long as your in control of your car and are a clean and fair driver, it doesn't matter what input device you use.

Regarding kicking pad users from races, I can actually completely understand that and it has nothing to do with snobbery. People with wheels are more likely to be better drivers because they've invested in wheels. It's a simple means of regulating your session that everyone's entitled to.

JDFSSS
16-05-2015, 23:47
How did this thread turn into what is better wheel or pad?..

Did you check the thread title?

Psychomatrix
16-05-2015, 23:56
Best way to play online is to find a group or league where its no matter what controls you use. On pc i'm a wheel user but on xbox one i use the pad. Only thing i can say i can drive with both of them very well if the game had a good steering. It make for me no sense to drive a race with only wheel user and all have different skills. Much more important is that you find fair drivers. Lot of wheel users see behind every paduser a potential crash kid and the didn't want waste time with them.

Dorny
17-05-2015, 00:16
Regarding kicking pad users from races, I can actually completely understand that and it has nothing to do with snobbery. People with wheels are more likely to be better drivers because they've invested in wheels. It's a simple means of regulating your session that everyone's entitled to.

Yeah generally a person with a wheel is more likely be better driver, but that doesn't mean that all gamepad users are rubbish drivers, thats the same as saying all wheel users are good. There is going to be and are rubbish and careless wheel users and there are and going to be great and fair gamepad users.

So that is where snobbery comes in by people making the assumption someone is crap at the game because of said input device.

Ive met plenty of gamepad users that are fully capable and I've met plenty of people with wheels that are slow and not clean.

End of the day its not the input its the user that determines if they are in control of the car and will race respectfully.

Now if that group of snobs why let go of that superiority complex, they can have more people to race and enjoy online with. Im not bothered if there are wheel only leagues or password lobbies, its the generally openness of MP play


Did you check the thread title?

Learn to read the actual post and not just the title.

Shnoo
17-05-2015, 00:36
Just let them talk i personaly use a g27 atm and i plan to upgrade to an even more expansive wheel. But do i care that some drive with a controller ? My first sim was Live for Speed i didn't have the mony back then and only played it with a really really crapy wheel even without forcefeedback and was on the faster side of the drivers. Then it broke and i had to drive with mouse and keyboard even then i wasn't the slowest driver at all. I was even able to drift with this combination. A few years ago i bought my g27 and i couldn't be happier about this descion it feels great and thats what counts for me the most. If you are not dangures because of your input divice i have nothing bad to say about it. its your personal preference. At the end this is still a game so flaming others for not wanting to spend the money just shows how immature they are.

cossie29
17-05-2015, 00:47
How did this thread turn into what is better wheel or pad?. The thread was never about that. Its blatantly obvious a wheel with a sim is going to be better. It was about the snobbery that can come from certain groups of wheel users, that they are better than gamepad players and look down at them or kick them from races. Racing communities are already fairly small for online play so why damage the potential of one from a pointless sense of superiority .

Where as long as your in control of your car and are a clean and fair driver, it doesn't matter what input device you use.
thank you dormy, this thread seemed to get sidetracked. There have opinions from both sides, as stated i am a decent driver. 99% of my games for my ps1/2/3/4 and xbox 360 have been driving games as this is what interests me. i have no interest in cod or whatever, but i do not own a wheel etc as i just do not have the room in my flat, i am waiting till i move to my new house which will have a dedicated mancave, where yes i will buy a wheel and seat.
but by no means will i feel superior or look down on people for choosing or not affording a wheel.

theZOGster
17-05-2015, 03:59
I just have a controller for now, but does anyone besides me use two fingers on the steering stick? I use my left thumb and left pointer fingers to precisely move the stick. I don't think thumbs are meant for fine, controlled movement.

David Slute
17-05-2015, 04:41
I am a pc wheel user and I could care less what people use as long as the servers are full and people are enjoying racing is all I care about :)

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 08:14
I am a pc wheel user and I could care less what people use as long as the servers are full and people are enjoying racing is all I care about :)

I wish more people had that attitude. As I said in an above post, it doesn't matter what you use so long as you're quick. I'm just as fast, and just as smooth, with a pad as I am with a wheel. The only slight issue I have with a pad is I find it awkward to change gears using the shoulder buttons, but if I remap the controls it's no longer an issue.

This sort of silly "my way to play is better than yours" nonsense has been going on since gaming began. C64 vs Spectrum, Atari ST vs Amiga, Sega vs Nintendo, Playstation vs Xbox, PC vs consoles, joypad vs keyboard and mouse (and just about every other controller). It's just elitist snobbery.

At the end of the day it's a game, so it doesn't matter how you play it because it isn't real. Just because people have spent 100+ on a flashy new wheel to make them feel like Lewis James Hamilton Hunt III, or whatever, doesn't make them any more accomplished or superior than anyone else. Enjoying the game should be the priority, and if you can do it with a wheel or with a pad that should be fine for everyone else.

Hey, here's and idea for people who want full immersion, why not buy 20 fans, turn them on, wear a helmet and Nomek racing overalls, turn your heating up really high and have a mate lob dead blue bottles and bits of rubber at you at random intervals...:p

Projectmanager
17-05-2015, 09:07
Going back to the original first post which started all this,ime sorry to say that I fell into this awful snobbery ,but ime no snob,since I moved into a house with a garage,sold my Ducati,spend 1500 on xbox,wheel,sim car all in the garage,all I talk about is what I've built,it's the ultimate experience,and I am a wheel snob,but ime no better than anyone else on the track,ime actually pretty slow,but just enjoy sitting in my simulator,but I use the controller indoors to do easy set ups and adjustments,then back on the sim to race,I know people havnt got the room,and the money,but I don't see them as different,when were all racing ,were all the same,..ime propably just proud of what I've achieved,,,,

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 09:36
I wish more people had that attitude. As I said in an above post, it doesn't matter what you use so long as you're quick.

Quick is not enough. He can be even slow. But he has to be safe and predictable.
BTW it's valid also for steering wheel players with no exception.

NinjaWookiee
17-05-2015, 10:02
At the end of the day it's a game, so it doesn't matter how you play it because it isn't real.

Only real things matter to you? Must be a boring life...

Of course a wheel is the better input device, Force Feedback alone should be the winning argument.

Other than that, expectations, guys... If you see one guy driving an Audi A3 and another driving an Audi R8 - who would you say is the bigger motorsports fan? Or better driver?

Right, you have expectations but no idea, these things say nothing about personality, and should not get mixed up.

Why do gaming forums always remind me of kindergarten...

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 10:17
Only real things matter to you?

That has to be the singular most stupid question I've ever read on a forum. Of course only real things matter, because if you spend your entire life in some sort of delusional self-imposed fantasy then you may was well be dead. You either live life – including all the happiness and sadness that it gives you– or you turn your back on it and start dying. Games are fun, they're a brief respite from the day to day activities of the real world, but they aren't real and so they don't really matter. If you're attaching importance to something that is nothing but a structured matrix of code on your computer, that's imitating a very small section of life, and thinking that whatever you do in this world really matters, then you have serious issues and need to seek help.

KK78
17-05-2015, 10:33
Well I'm faster with a controller than with a wheel, mainly because I've used controllers way more. In PCars, Forza, Driveclub and GT my times are often very competitive. I packed my wheel away because I find the controller far more convenient. The wheel is more authentic sure but the common belief that using a wheel is always infinitely better, makes you better and will make you the King of England is entirely false, it is personal choice and the snobbery is both tiresome and pathetic.

NinjaWookiee
17-05-2015, 10:43
That has to be the singular most stupid question I've ever read on a forum. Of course only real things matter, because if you spend your entire life in some sort of delusional self-imposed fantasy then you may was well be dead. You either live life – including all the happiness and sadness that it gives you– or you turn your back on it and start dying. Games are fun, they're a brief respite from the day to day activities of the real world, but they aren't real and so they don't really matter. If you're attaching importance to something that is nothing but a structured matrix of code on your computer, that's imitating a very small section of life, and thinking that whatever you do in this world really matters, then you have serious issues and need to seek help.

Can't stop laughing... maybe you define 'matter' differently: movies, books, games, comics - all of those things 'matter' because entertainment is an important part of life, though I never said my life depended on them. I think your overreactions tells another story but that's not my business. And I think it's fair to say that people who care about their fictional hobbies are perfectly normal human beings who don't 'have serious issues and need to seek help'. Come on man, tell that to a cosplayer!

NinjaWookiee
17-05-2015, 10:56
You have serious problems...

Really? Like all the people who consider themselves nerds or geeks, spend 8 hours in line to see the new Star Wars movie or paint little figurines for their table-top games or make costumes of their favorite anime characters? Is that what you are saying??



Edit: deleting your post isn't very helpful...

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 11:21
Can't stop laughing... maybe you define 'matter' differently: movies, books, games, comics - all of those things 'matter' because entertainment is an important part of life, though I never said my life depended on them. I think your overreactions tells another story but that's not my business. And I think it's fair to say that people who care about their fictional hobbies are perfectly normal human beings who don't 'have serious issues and need to seek help'. Come on man, tell that to a cosplayer!

I think you're seriously misunderstanding what I mean by "matters". Sure entertainment is important, because without it life would be very boring. I play games to be entertained, I watch movies and read books. I make video games so that other people can be entertained, I also used to be an actor. But in all of these things the effects and consequences aren't real, so they may matter to you because you get emotionally invested in the characters, but they have no real impact on the physical world. People confuse these fantasy worlds with the real world and they start to put more importance on these artificial things and ignore the real world problems around them. Yes, people get very attached to these things, I have often found myself at work thinking "I can't wait to get home to watch my favorite programme", but if I missed it my life wouldn't come to an end. Sure it's fun, sure it's something to rush home for, but if I don't get to watch it the world is not going to explode.

It's the same with games. We're playing this game because we enjoy playing it. If we don't enjoy it what's the point of playing it? But making a mistake in this game and crashing at 200mph into a wall won't do you any harm. It might make you a bit angry for a while and you might feel a bit stupid, but at the end of the day it's doesn't really matter as it's just a bit of fun. If, on the other hand, you did the same thing in the real world, then it would matter in a lot of very different and much more serious ways, not just for you but also your friends and relatives.

I'm reminded of a recent story I read about a Korean couple (at least I think they were Korean) who got so attached to a certain video game where they could create and care for children that they neglected their own baby who starved to death. They thought this game mattered more than real life and their own child died as a result... That's wrong on many levels.

At the end of the day these artificial things, tv programmes, games, books, movies, cosplay, are important to us on an emotional level only, but if they weren't there we wouldn't just stop living. They're entertainment only, something pleasureable to do to take your mind off the real world for a moment or two, but they're not important in the sense that they have any real physical impact on the universe. You can use your imagination to picture Superman picking up your house and moving it to a new location, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Going back to the original topic, people are emotionally invested in steering wheels because they've bothered to buy it, spent a lot of money on it, set it up. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you play with a wheel, joypad, keyboard or whatever, because what you're doing isn't real. It really is nothing but a series of 1's and 0's being interpreted into a moving image that you can interact with, and it may matter to you on an emotional level, but it has absolutely no impact upon the physical world unless you allow it to do so by your own actions. Like if you killed 20 people with a baseball bat in GTA and suddenly decided to try that out in the physical world.

The most important thing about a game, or any form of entertainment, is that it should be fun. However, if that fun becomes more important to you than your life, the life of a loved one, or even another human being, then, as I said before, you need to seek professional help.

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 11:21
Really? Like all the people who consider themselves nerds or geeks, spend 8 hours in line to see the new Star Wars movie or paint little figurines for their table-top games or make costumes of their favorite anime characters? Is that what you are saying??



Edit: deleting your post isn't very helpful...

I deleted it so that I could give you a better answer. Look at my answer directly above this one.

Sickboy
17-05-2015, 11:43
So many people complain about driving with a controller, saying it is too hard or you can't play a sim with one. The leaderboards suggest wheels and controllers are fairly well matched. If people are being snobs let them, not everyone wants a wheel. If you want a wheel, three monitors and a recaro seat it doesn't make you better, faster or a proper driver. The person with a controller could be better at tuning their car and know every bump on any track.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 11:53
I think you didn't read all posts.
Leaderboards shows ONLY best laptimes. Those laptimes are collected ONLY while being ALONE on the track.

What we (at least me) stated, that with controller you cannot be as precise with driving as with steering wheel. It's quite obvious taking into consideration how small movement is needed to turn virtual wheel from lock to lock.
Knowing this fact, it should be easier to understand why some don't want to race against pad-drivers. Simply their manouvers are not as predictable and fluent as with use of steering wheel. So all this discussion is about multiplayer racing. So not bring leader-boards again and again as argument. It's irrelevant.

If you have problem with all these wheel owners, then race against other controllers owners only. Seems to be win-win

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 12:12
I think you didn't read all posts.
Leaderboards shows ONLY best laptimes. Those laptimes are collected ONLY while being ALONE on the track.

What we (at least me) stated, that with controller you cannot be as precise with driving as with steering wheel. It's quite obvious taking into consideration how small movement is needed to turn virtual wheel from lock to lock.
Knowing this fact, it should be easier to understand why some don't want to race against pad-drivers. Simply their manouvers are not as predictable and fluent as with use of steering wheel. So all this discussion is about multiplayer racing. So not bring leader-boards again and again as argument. It's irrelevant.

If you have problem with all these wheel owners, then race against other controllers owners only. Seems to be win-win

What a load of utter rubbish!

Controllers do not mean that you drive erratically. As I said above I'm just as smooth with the controller as I am with the wheel because I've had 35+ years of racing game experience and know what I'm doing. Yes, the stats for controllers may show that the controller has a higher number of more erratic drivers, but that's due to the fact that players inexperienced to racing sims will come to a game like this only having a controller and are playing using it while learning the tracks, where to brake, how the AI behaves. It's only later on, when they get more experience, that they'll move up to a wheel. So wheels will have a higher percentage of more experienced, and therefore smoother, users than controllers, but it doesn't mean that the controller is flawed it just means that the wheel users have more experience than many of the controller users and are therefore smoother drivers because of the extra experience.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 12:25
It's not about the wheel users have more experience. It's about the less experienced wheel driver can drive more smooth than common pad user. It's just because of physical input range available while using steering wheel. This argument simply cannot be beaten.

However if some one have a lot experience with controller then it's very likely what you say. But you also say that majority of controller users are not skilled enough to drive smooth.
And you just answered your self the question why wheel users doesn't want to race against controller one.
It's simply - there is no room to test one driver or another. So they use thick filter.

wearymick
17-05-2015, 13:07
In the world of consoles this kind of dumb discussion comes up with monotonous regularity. It's a game. We're all just playing with toys. What does it matter if you use a twig and a rubber band to 'steer' with. There's an hilarious video knocking around on YouTube of a kid who used clothes pegs to try to turn a game pad into a wheel. Grow up.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 13:15
It's the same with games. We're playing this game because we enjoy playing it. If we don't enjoy it what's the point of playing it? But making a mistake in this game and crashing at 200mph into a wall won't do you any harm. It might make you a bit angry for a while and you might feel a bit stupid, but at the end of the day it's doesn't really matter as it's just a bit of fun. If, on the other hand, you did the same thing in the real world, then it would matter in a lot of very different and much more serious ways, not just for you but also your friends and relatives.

This kind of ignores the entire point of your post though, doesn't it? If the point of playing games is to have fun, certainly crashing is not fun and actually makes the game more frustrating. So it's logical that people do what they can to avoid crashing, which in avoiding pad users isn't an invalid tactic. I'm not saying pad users are bad drivers, just that on average a wheel user is much more likely to be more in control and know what they're doing because they've invested in a wheel.

You shouldn't project your expectations onto others. If others want to only race with wheel players that's their prerogative. I get that your point, that we'd be better overall if everyone played with everyone, but that's just not realistic. When it comes to racing sims some would prefer playing with players who are more likely to not cause havoc in their gaming sessions, and in this case that leans towards wheel users. So you shouldn't look down upon people who prefer to race with only wheel users when it's not done just because they don't like pad users, but because wheel users are more likely to be better drivers because of having a wheel. It's not, as you suggest, that people are so much more emotionally invested in the game because they have a wheel, but they just want to have their version of fun - which involves avoiding players that can ruin their gaming.

You're basically saying that your version of fun in a game is more important than others because the entertainment of the game is so irrelevant that we should do what's best for everyone and that anyone who takes it "seriously" (such as avoiding pad users) is playing the game wrong.

Projectmanager
17-05-2015, 13:19
Men never grow up,can't imagine my wife sitting there shouting,,,ooh great I've got the lap record,
Another discussion here,ime here for a good time not a long time,ime nearly 60 in October,and just built a race car sim in my garage,I also use a stair lift to get into it,
...russ

nissan4ever
17-05-2015, 13:28
Right guys i have been in this forum since friday launch and 1 thing is becoming very clear and rather annoying....
A lot of people on here play this on pc with a wheel or a wheel with a console!
And the snobbery is appaling,The Wheel brigade seem to think we controller using gamers are beneath them and i have seen somewhere that we are obv only arcade racers,I play with a controller on a ps4, having a wheel does not make you better than me or the next guy who uses a controller, some of us have lives and possibley wifes, children etc, and cannot afford or like me i could go out tommprrow and buy the best wheel on the market with every extra going but i do not have the room! i am also not obsessed with gaming i have a real life and REAL responsabilities first and foremost!

Just a moan as we are meant to be a community so less of the snobbery guys!

I don't think I'm better than anyone using a controller. However I do believe to fully enjoy all this game does offer, you need a wheel. I also don't go by the fastest car time on LB. I haven't necessarily driven that particular car, since they break it down by group. I go by the car I've driven.

2ndly, I too am married with responsibilities just like you. However, I always will make sure I enjoy my games to the fullest, including using a wheel. If space is a concern, www.wheelstandpro.com got you covered.
203110
Good example, at Silverstone National Circuit for touring. I have the 2nd fastest time in the Clio Cup. The guy ahead of me is .021 ahead of me (wheel user to). That's what matters to me.

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 13:30
This kind of ignores the entire point of your post though, doesn't it? If the point of playing games is to have fun, certainly crashing is not fun and actually makes the game more frustrating. So it's logical that people do what they can to avoid crashing, which in avoiding pad users isn't an invalid tactic. I'm not saying pad users are bad drivers, just that on average a wheel user is much more likely to be more in control and know what they're doing because they've invested in a wheel.

You shouldn't project your expectations onto others. If others want to only race with wheel players that's their prerogative. I get that your point, that we'd be better overall if everyone played with everyone, but that's just not realistic. When it comes to racing sims some would prefer playing with players who are more likely to not cause havoc in their gaming sessions, and in this case that leans towards wheel users. So you shouldn't look down upon people who prefer to race with only wheel users when it's not done just because they don't like pad users, but because wheel users are more likely to be better drivers because of having a wheel. It's not, as you suggest, that people are so much more emotionally invested in the game because they have a wheel, but they just want to have their version of fun - which involves avoiding players that can ruin their gaming.

You're basically saying that your version of fun in a game is more important than others because the entertainment of the game is so irrelevant that we should do what's best for everyone and that anyone who takes it "seriously" (such as avoiding pad users) is playing the game wrong.

Oh for gods sake... :rolleyes: Thank you very much for completely missing the point of what I was saying. Now if you'd like to go back and re-read it, and try a bit harder this time, it may help... Though I'm not holding my breath.

vowthyn
17-05-2015, 13:36
There are two major differences betwen gamepad and wheel when it comes to racing simulators.

1. Precision - the cheapest "toy quality" wheels have at least 180 degrees of rotation. Even decent entry level wheel at the price not significantly bigger than quality gamepads can have 900 degrees of rotation. It's simply incomparable with gamepad when it comes to driving a virtual car. Driving 2wide in the corners is much more easier with the wheel (ergo safer for the other players on the track) than with the gamepad. Yes - you can also do this with gamepad, but it takes better skill, which not everybody has.

2. Force Feedback. Someone mentioned, that in virtual racing we lack input from G-forces and so we have to rely only on visual input. That is not true for wheel and that's second even more important difference - with the decent (doesn't have to be expensive) wheel you get FFB which gives you much more information about whats going on with the car that you're driving than just visual information and maybe some rumbling available on gamepads. If you haven't tried it you just don't know what kind of gaming experience and immersion factor you are loosing playing with gamepad.

I have nothing against racing with gamepad players as long as their driving lines and behaviour are predictable. I don't think I'm better in any way because I use wheel. I think that worst kind of players - wreckers - you can find among both - wheel and pad drivers, it's not a matter of game controller, but rather state of mind and lack of respect for other players. But there is no doubt that wheel is much better controller when it comes to virtual racing (doesn't mean that players using it are automaticly better drivers than those using gamepads).

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 13:38
Oh for gods sake... :rolleyes: Thank you very much for completely missing the point of what I was saying. Now if you'd like to go back and re-read it, and try a bit harder this time, it may help... Though I'm not holdoing my breath.

There's no need to be rude. I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in what you presented. If there's something I missed I more than welcome an explanation of what you may have actually meant, but you responding in this method pretty much contradicts everything you've been saying here. You expect people to not be elitist snobs about a topic you're passionate about, yet you respond like one...

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 13:47
No I'm just getting really frustrated with talking to people who are either being deliberately stupid or completely missing the point of a very simple conversation...

It's not difficult to understand. Using a pad does not make you a worse driver, nor does it make you less in control than someone using a wheel if you know you're doing...

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 13:58
No I'm just getting really frustrated with talking to people who are either being deliberately stupid or completely missing the point of a very simple conversation...

It's not difficult to understand. Using a pad does not make you a worse driver, nor does it make you more in control than someone using a wheel if you know you're doing...

I was responding to your post about gaming for fun and people taking the game too seriously... Yet I'm stupid because I "don't get" your point about controllers not being inferior, even though that's exactly what I was talking about in my post?

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 14:25
Yes, because you completely missed the point of my initial post.

I said:




It's the same with games. We're playing this game because we enjoy playing it. If we don't enjoy it what's the point of playing it? But making a mistake in this game and crashing at 200mph into a wall won't do you any harm. It might make you a bit angry for a while and you might feel a bit stupid, but at the end of the day it's doesn't really matter as it's just a bit of fun. If, on the other hand, you did the same thing in the real world, then it would matter in a lot of very different and much more serious ways, not just for you but also your friends and relatives.

To which you replied:


This kind of ignores the entire point of your post though, doesn't it? If the point of playing games is to have fun, certainly crashing is not fun and actually makes the game more frustrating. So it's logical that people do what they can to avoid crashing, which in avoiding pad users isn't an invalid tactic. I'm not saying pad users are bad drivers, just that on average a wheel user is much more likely to be more in control and know what they're doing because they've invested in a wheel.

You shouldn't project your expectations onto others. If others want to only race with wheel players that's their prerogative. I get that your point, that we'd be better overall if everyone played with everyone, but that's just not realistic. When it comes to racing sims some would prefer playing with players who are more likely to not cause havoc in their gaming sessions, and in this case that leans towards wheel users. So you shouldn't look down upon people who prefer to race with only wheel users when it's not done just because they don't like pad users, but because wheel users are more likely to be better drivers because of having a wheel. It's not, as you suggest, that people are so much more emotionally invested in the game because they have a wheel, but they just want to have their version of fun - which involves avoiding players that can ruin their gaming.

You're basically saying that your version of fun in a game is more important than others because the entertainment of the game is so irrelevant that we should do what's best for everyone and that anyone who takes it "seriously" (such as avoiding pad users) is playing the game wrong.

First of all, I'm not saying that my version of fun is more important than anyone else's. People can enjoy the game any way they like. What's it got to do with me? Nothing, so why should I care? I'm just trying to point out that to look down upon others because someone believes their method of controlling the game is superior is wrong.

Secondly the crash analogy above was aimed at NinjaWookie (who seems to place some sort of extra importance upon artificial things) to indicate that if you do crash in the game you don't die, so it's not important to your real life. Which is the point I was making when I said it was just a game and it doesn't matter. It matters in the game, and also to the person that you may collide with in the game, but the real world is not going to be affected by it, so it really doesn't matter. It only matters emotionally because we project artificial feelings of importance onto it. But your life isn't going to come to an end if you die in a game, you're not going to starve, world war 3 is not going to break out, nothing will happen to you at all. That's not my opinion, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what happens to you in the game, it won't physically affect you in real life unless you allow it to do so. But then if it does affect someone in that way, then as I said, they have issues.

Now hopefully that's clear enough. If it isn't then I'm sorry, I can't explain it any simpler.

Failrunner
17-05-2015, 15:46
I use both. I prefer a wheel but I also stream the game with a Shield portable and tablet and my wheel won't work with it. A wheel is more immersive and more realistic. However I could care less how other people play video games. If you think you're better than someone because of the way you decide to send inputs to your video games than you have a screw loose. Lol.

vowthyn
17-05-2015, 16:11
That's not my opinion, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what happens to you in the game, it won't physically affect you in real life unless you allow it to do so. But then if it does affect someone in that way, then as I said, they have issues.


I disagree. I race simracing games to have fun. Racing simulators are about coming as close as possible to the experience of driving real race cars and fighting opponnents on the track. If someone on public multiplayer server is acting in the way that has nothing to do with simulating real racing experience (taking unpredictable lines, inaccurate braking points, is incapable of staying 2wide with other player in a turn without pushing him off track and is driving in a "jerky" not smooth way) he is affecting all other players that race with him ruining their immersion and experience. He may be "enjoying the game the way he likes" but at the same time he is spoiling fun for everyone else. You say it doesn't matter because you can't die in game. Sure I can't, but if I would like to spend my free time bashing with other players and making havoc on the track than I would go for Flat Out or Burn Out, not a game that aspires to simulate real world racing. If you would play game of chess, than I don't think you would have much fun against the opponnent, who once in a while smashes all the figures off the board because this is the way "he likes this game". And I don't think that I have "issues" because I would be surely annoyed by such behaviour in game.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 16:13
Yes, because you completely missed the point of my initial post.

I said:



To which you replied:



First of all, I'm not saying that my version of fun is more important than anyone else's. People can enjoy the game any way they like. What's it got to do with me? Nothing, so why should I care? I'm just trying to point out that to look down upon others because someone believes their method of controlling the game is superior is wrong.

Secondly the crash analogy above was aimed at NinjaWookie (who seems to place some sort of extra importance upon artificial things) to indicate that if you do crash in the game you don't die, so it's not important to your real life. Which is the point I was making when I said it was just a game and it doesn't matter. It matters in the game, and also to the person that you may collide with in the game, but the real world is not going to be affected by it, so it really doesn't matter. It only matters emotionally because we project artificial feelings of importance onto it. But your life isn't going to come to an end if you die in a game, you're not going to starve, world war 3 is not going to break out, nothing will happen to you at all. That's not my opinion, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what happens to you in the game, it won't physically affect you in real life unless you allow it to do so. But then if it does affect someone in that way, then as I said, they have issues.

Now hopefully that's clear enough. If it isn't then I'm sorry, I can't explain it any simpler.

My entire point was that fun is subjective, and that your version of fun doesn't equate to everyone elses and you shouldn't assume that it does. Crashing in a game about racing can end up negating the fun of that game because it can completely remove you from doing what you want to do in the game - race. It matters because people play the game for fun, as you said, yet when you crash people tend to get frustrated and want to move on, much like you may get frustrated about people feeling superior to you because you don't use a wheel. The whole "it's not real so don't take it seriously" is irrelevant because people aren't taking it overly-serious just because they don't want to crash in a game, because crashing can end up causing them to no longer enjoy the game.

There's no need for this passive aggressive behavior you're having with anyone disagrees with you. Furthermore, you could take a dose of your own advise. Why do you let people who you assume feel superior to you bother you so much in a video game? That was more of my overall point, that your entire post was ironic in how you claim people shouldn't care so much about the game, yet you care so much about how other people choose to play it.

TheBostonbean
17-05-2015, 16:17
For me, at least, using a gamepad in Forza was easy but very difficult in PCars so I broke down and bought a wheel. Now driving down the track is smooth as silk. Another player yesterday easily identified me as a wheel user. Some are incredibly proficient with a gamepad but apparently I am not in that group. Yes, many of you are incredibly quick with a gamepad but imho this game was designed to use a wheel. But I also realize that a wheel is very costly. I just want to see more people in multi-player, gamepad or wheel.

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 16:49
My entire point was that fun is subjective, and that your version of fun doesn't equate to everyone elses and you shouldn't assume that it does. Crashing in a game about racing can end up negating the fun of that game because it can completely remove you from doing what you want to do in the game - race. It matters because people play the game for fun, as you said, yet when you crash people tend to get frustrated and want to move on, much like you may get frustrated about people feeling superior to you because you don't use a wheel. The whole "it's not real so don't take it seriously" is irrelevant because people aren't taking it overly-serious just because they don't want to crash in a game, because crashing can end up causing them to no longer enjoy the game.

There's no need for this passive aggressive behavior you're having with anyone disagrees with you. Furthermore, you could take a dose of your own advise. Why do you let people who you assume feel superior to you bother you so much in a video game? That was more of my overall point, that your entire post was ironic in how you claim people shouldn't care so much about the game, yet you care so much about how other people choose to play it.

I'm washing my hands of this conversations as you simply don't, can't, or am unwilling to understand what I'm saying, sorry. You're missing the point entirely and I cannot explain it to you adequately enough, so I think we should leave it there.

MaXKiLLz
17-05-2015, 16:56
some of us have lives and possibly a wife, children, etc, and cannot afford, or like me, i could go out tomorrow and buy the best wheel on the market with every extra going but i do not have the room! i am also not obsessed with gaming i have a real life and REAL responsibilities first and foremost!

Just to be clear. Owning a wheel means you have no real life, no wife, no children, are obsessed with gaming and have no real responsibilities? Man, I better let my wife and kids know they gotta go. I better quit my high-paying job too. :confused:

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 16:59
If someone on public multiplayer server is acting in the way that has nothing to do with simulating real racing experience (taking unpredictable lines, inaccurate braking points, is incapable of staying 2wide with other player in a turn without pushing him off track and is driving in a "jerky" not smooth way) he is affecting all other players that race with him ruining their immersion and experience.

A quick video of me driving with the pad on F1 2014 (I have no Project Cars races recorded yet). As you can see I don't drive in a "jerky not smooth way" nor do I brake incorrectly.

I admit I do make a couple of mistakes, I had a couple of issues with turns 11/12 and Raikkonen nearly caught me out into turn 6, I also gave Ricciardo a very slight nudge under braking towards the end, but this is due to not having played for several months and I didn't do any practise sessions before the race started, not due to using a pad. I'm also racing with a default setup with pro AI.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEYc6hh6YEU&feature=youtu.be

I may not be the quickest driver in the world, but I'm not unpredictable and I could race online against any wheel racer cleanly, smoothly and fairly.I'd prohbably get beat but at least they wouldn't have to take avoiding action because I was driving in a "jerky and not smooth way".

cossie29
17-05-2015, 17:08
Just to be clear. Owning a wheel means you have no real life, no wife, no children, are obsessed with gaming and have no real responsibilities? Man, I better let my wife and kids know they gotta go. I better quit my high-paying job too. :confused:

Wow you really just proved my point of being a complete D**k!

vowthyn
17-05-2015, 17:11
A quick video of me driving with the pad on F1 2014 (I have no Project Cars races recorded yet). As you can see I don't drive in a "jerky not smooth way" nor do I brake incorrectly.

I admit I do make a couple of mistakes, I had a couple of issues with turns 11/12 and Raikkonen nearly caught me out into turn 6, I also gave Ricciardo a very slight nudge under braking towards the end, but this is due to not having played for several months and I didn't do any practise sessions before the race started, not due to using a pad. I'm also racing with a default setup with pro AI.


Have you read my previous message? I wrote there "Yes - you can also do this with gamepad, but it takes better skill, which not everybody has." Good for you you seem to have it, at least in F1 game, I'm not familiar with it. Can you do the same in CARS with Lotus 49 or Ford Sierra without ABS, TCS or any other assist that those cars didn't have in real world? And in cocpit view, not some "camera above helmet" view which gives you unfair advantage over other players, because you can see more and farther ahead than person using cocpit view.
If you are capable of this than I wouldn't mind racing with you anytime no matter if you are using gamepad or even keyboard. And I'm also far from beeing fast driver - I either am not skilled enough or I don't have enough free time to practise.

MaXyM
17-05-2015, 17:14
I may not be the quickest driver in the world, but I'm not unpredictable and I could race online against any wheel racer cleanly, smoothly and fairly.I'd prohbably get beat but at least they wouldn't have to take avoiding action because I was driving in a "jerky and not smooth way".

Yeah. You are driving smooth I can confirm. And I really like it (besides improver view chosen)
I believe there are more drivers which manage to drive smooth with a gamepad.
But it doesn't change anything in this discussion.

SlickReed
17-05-2015, 17:15
some of us have lives and possibley wifes, children etc, and cannot afford or like me i could go out tommprrow and buy the best wheel on the market with every extra going but i do not have the room! i am also not obsessed with gaming i have a real life and REAL responsabilities first and foremost!


I have a wife and a career with major responsibilities. I still own a wheel and a pretty nice custom built rig. No reason to get upset because because you don't have one :)

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 17:23
Have you read my previous message? I wrote there "Yes - you can also do this with gamepad, but it takes better skill, which not everybody has." Good for you you seem to have it, at least in F1 game, I'm not familiar with it. Can you do the same in CARS with Lotus 49 or Ford Sierra without ABS, TCS or any other assist that those cars didn't have in real world? And in cocpit view, not some "camera above helmet" view which gives you unfair advantage over other players, because you can see more and farther ahead than person using cocpit view.
If you are capable of this than I wouldn't mind racing with you anytime no matter if you are using gamepad or even keyboard. And I'm also far from beeing fast driver - I either am not skilled enough or I don't have enough free time to practise.

Sure, I'll sort out a touring car race in the Sierra when I have the time. I do have a LMP2 practise run with no TC/ABS on my channel, but it's just me on the track with no other cars.


Yeah. You are driving smooth I can confirm. And I really like it (besides improver view chosen)
I believe there are more drivers which manage to drive smooth with a gamepad.
But it doesn't change anything in this discussion.

Sadly the "improper view" is due to the fact that I can't get used to Codemasters F1 cockpits. . I'm fine in Project Cars, all the EA F1 games, Geoff Crammonds Grand prix games, Grand Prix Legends, and so on, but I just can't get comfortable with the F1 series cockpit views. I think it's the way they move, they don't seem natural. Which does irk me as I don't like to drive outside the cockpit as it spoils the immersion.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 17:29
I'm washing my hands of this conversations as you simply don't, can't, or am unwilling to understand what I'm saying, sorry. You're missing the point entirely and I cannot explain it to you adequately enough, so I think we should leave it there.

I perfectly understand what you're saying.

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 17:37
I perfectly understand what you're saying.

Ermm... No you don't. Sorry. If you did then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

cossie29
17-05-2015, 17:37
I have a wife and a career with major responsibilities. I still own a wheel and a pretty nice custom built rig. No reason to get upset because because you don't have one :)

No one is getting upset pal! in stating that a lot of ppl who have all this getup seem to think they are a cut above the rest, And a few of the replys seem to have confirmed this, each to there own but dont judge people who dont have one or dont want 1!

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 17:42
Ermm... No you don't. Sorry. If you did then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

As I've said, I perfectly understand what you're saying and simply don't agree with it in all aspects.

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 17:54
Okay. Explain it to me then and I'll see if you're right.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 18:01
You can't be serious... you in no way describe how I come across as not understanding your simple position, which is nothing more than stating people who look down upon all pad users are wrong for doing so (which I don't disagree with) yet completely ignore my arguments and state I don't understand you without providing any insight as to why or how I'm wrong in my statements about how you're overgeneralizing and attempting to negate other peoples' opinions on the matter by simply stating it's just a game and not to take it so seriously.

cossie29
17-05-2015, 18:03
anyone got any popcorn????

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 18:49
You can't be serious... you in no way describe how I come across as not understanding your simple position, which is nothing more than stating people who look down upon all pad users are wrong for doing so (which I don't disagree with) yet completely ignore my arguments and state I don't understand you without providing any insight as to why or how I'm wrong in my statements about how you're overgeneralizing and attempting to negate other peoples' opinions on the matter by simply stating it's just a game and not to take it so seriously.

But you are wrong and it is just a game. It has no bearing on real life and nothing in common with it. No game does. Don't believe me, then load up GTA and jump of the roof of a high building, then do the same in real life. I won't hold my breath that you'll come back to the forum and tell me what you discovered. It's a really simple concept that for whatever reason you've completely misunderstood.

Roger Prynne
17-05-2015, 18:53
Give it a rest guys!!!

NinjaWookiee
17-05-2015, 18:53
But you are wrong and it is just a game. It has no bearing on real life and nothing in common with it. No game does. Don't believe me, then load up GTA and jump of the roof of a high building, then do the same in real life. I won't hold my breath that you'll come back to the forum and tell me what you discovered. It's a really simple concept that for whatever reason you've completely misunderstood.

Oh maaaaan....:D

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 18:55
Oh maaaaan....:D

Why?

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 19:02
Give it a rest guys!!!

I'm not being funny here, but why? He's completely misunderstood, as has WookieNinja, my point that nothing you do in a game has any consequences, so it's not actually worth getting upset about so long as you have fun... Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? It's not like I'm trying to rain on anyones parade and tell them how to play the game, I'm merely pointing out that getting your knickers in a twist over this controller vs wheel nonsense is pointless because it is just a game. You can't die it it, there are no dangers except for a bit of dented pride and a falling out on a forum with whoever you crashed into. If you did it on a real track it would be a completely different situation altogether. Are people so removed from reality that they can't tell reality from fantasy anymore?

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 19:02
But you are wrong and it is just a game. It has no bearing on real life and nothing in common with it. No game does. Don't believe me, then load up GTA and jump of the roof of a high building, then do the same in real life. I won't hold my breath that you'll come back to the forum and tell me what you discovered. It's a really simple concept that for whatever reason you've completely misunderstood.

Again, there's no need for the passive aggressiveness. I never said it wasn't a game. I understand your point on it being just a game, as I said before. However, you're completely taking out of context how people choose to play the game based upon your personal opinion. Just because someone chooses to take the game more seriously by playing with a wheel or by not playing with pad players doesn't equate to them taking the game too seriously. It may in your opinion, which is fine, but to argue that they're playing the game wrong when it's an available way to play the game is just ignorant. How you choose to play the game and enjoy it is subjective and you can't expect everyone to get the same appeasement out of it in the same manner that you do.

lacslyer
17-05-2015, 19:04
I'm not being funny here, but why? He's completely misunderstood, as as WookieNinja, my point that nothing you do in a game has any consequences, so it's not actually worth getting upset about so long as you have fun... Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? It's not like I'm trying to rain on anyones parade and tell them how to play the game, I'm merely point out that getting your knickers in a twist over this controller vs wheel nonsense is pointless because it is just a game. You can't die it it, there are no dangers except for a bit of dented pride and a falling out on a forum with whoever you crashed into. Are people so removed from reality that they can't tell reality from fantasy anymore?

This is what you don't understand about my point. You don't care if you wreck, but others do because it ruins their entertainment of the game. That's all there is to it and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Furthermore, what's so ironic about it is you're one of the few getting so upset about the whole debate when I've merely pointed out the flaws in your arguments and haven't stated in any way what my opinion is on the matter. Yet you're telling us this is pointless because it's a game. So why did you even mention being upset about wheel elitists if it's so irrelevant because it's just a game? You're so adamant that we should play how we choose, yet ridicule people for taking it seriously or choosing to play in a way that conflicts with how you choose to play. Yet it's just a game..?

PeteUplink
17-05-2015, 19:13
Oh Geez! Is that it? You think I'm a wrecker because I believe it's just a game? That's the whole point that's kept you arguing all this time?

Of course I care when I can't succeed in a game. Did you see my driving video above? (link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEYc6hh6YEU&feature=youtu.be) Did you notice that I didn't just deliberately push all the other cars out of the way? It matters within the confines of the game not to crash, but it doesn't matter in the real world. That was the point I was making. It's just a game. A fantasy world made up of a code of 1's and 0's and stored on a hard drive. If you die in the game it doesn't affect your real life self so there's no need to get so tetchy about silly stuff like steering wheels and joypads. There really are more important things to worry about.

When I said "If I crash at 200mph" I wasn't talking about crashing into another player. It was an example of something you can do in a game that you can't do in real life. I was simply saying that if I, me alone, or you, or anyone else, solo without anyone around, crashes in the game, it matters not one bit because it's only happened in the game. Sure you'll be angry, sure you'll be a bit embarrassed with yourself, but it doesn't matter in real world terms because nobody has been killed. You can walk away, go make a drink, come back in an hour and try again. Sure it's frustrating to play a game and keep dying all the time, I've played Dark Souls and I find it frustrating and it does ruin a game to keep dying all the time. But it is just a game. It's like a movie where a beloved character dies. It's upsetting, it may make you cry, but at the end of the day it really is just an actor reading a script and playing the part. When he or she has finished that part they go home to their real family in the real world and their real world problems.

This whole stupid conversation has been dragged out longer than it needs to because you completely misunderstood my point. And the "jump off a building" comment was not passive aggressive (which was another case of you missing the point) it was an example of a thing you can do in a game that you can't do in real life. If someone jumps off a building in a game they die in the game but can restart or respawn, if someone jumps off a building in real life they die. Period! Unless they're extremely lucky. There are no respawns in life.

That's the whole single point I'm trying to make. Why is it so difficult to grasp?

k.merse
17-05-2015, 20:04
You don't have to be obsessed with a game to have a wheel. But a steering wheel always takes the game to its fullest. You get much more precise reactions form the cars, and your control will never be as precise with a controller as it would be with a steering wheel. There is just no way you could be as fast with a controller as with a wheel, especially if you turn driving aids off.

By the way, hotlap times are not a good way to compare steering methods. Obviously, a guy with a controller and with every driving aids turned on will be most likely faster than another with a wheel but every driving aids turned off. Those who use a wheel usually seek the challenge in the game, so they make the cars more difficult to drive, which obviously means slightly slower laptimes. But if they would turn every driving aids on, I think people would be faster in average than people with controller.

Joao
17-05-2015, 23:17
Im on xbox one and on bavarian legend (driver network) someone has a 1.45 lap.... using a controller.
Number 1 ranked on leaderboards!
Infact the top 4 are using a controller, the fastest person with a wheel is 5th place 1.45.6
I cant break into top 300 with a wheel!!
These people are god-like!
:confused:

Probably they are using helps and a chase camera. Check that out.

THMcCluskey
17-05-2015, 23:57
I race pad, and have done for pretty much my entire time racing console "simulators", Forza 3 & 4 in particular.

Back in the days of Forza 3 I was able to place top 50 on most track leaderboards with my pad, it felt comfortable. In PCARS on the other hand, it's not quite as smooth. Perhaps it's a combination of going from the X360 controller to the PS4 pad, and the increased level of simulation you get with PCARS. Either way, I struggle to be smooth through the corners on PCARS, instead opting for lots of little horizontal movements. I mean I can hold a gradual corner if I really focus, but it definitely doesn't feel as natural.

I did briefly flirt with a wheel on Forza 3, set a top 10 time actually in a Lancia Delta Integrale. This was likely most to do with the fact that it's 4WD though, my feet had never been involved in the gaming experience before. It was hard enough breaking without ABS, let alone feathering the throttle as required.

I ultimately think that a wheel racer will be ever so slightly smoother through the corners in PCARS. That's it. I personally have no interest in investing in a wheel, and setting up a physical space in my uni digs to use it effectively. A pad can be quickly picked up and played, whether it's PCARS, GTA, or Trials. I play PCARS to hotlap, that's where I get my enjoyment. I like the challenge of battling against the leaderboards, and am happy using a pad to do so.

Talking of Trials, to anybody who thinks that pads cannot give a good enough level of responsiveness, watch some Trials top 10's. In fact try playing it first, then watch the top 10's. I see myself as a very competitive racer in both games, but the ability of some will never cease to amaze me.

kaa0s
18-05-2015, 09:42
Talking of Trials, to anybody who thinks that pads cannot give a good enough level of responsiveness, watch some Trials top 10's. In fact try playing it first, then watch the top 10's. I see myself as a very competitive racer in both games, but the ability of some will never cease to amaze me.

Those hillclimb WR's are something that genuinely gets me thinking some people are aliens :D Even more so than seeing some of the best drivers on racing games do their thing. (I've managed to complete Inferno IV myself which I think is in its own right a great achievement in gaming, but on the hillclimb there is just no chance in hell to get to the top for me.. )

Revvin
18-05-2015, 10:40
Play with whatever controller you like, its your game, your free time. Spending money on an expensive steering wheel doesn't necessarily make you quicker but it can help by giving you finer control and better feedback. Wheels have evolved leaps and bounds since my first wheel - a Thrustmaster T1 with its non force-feedback centre spring mechanism driven by a bungie cord. Wheels I've owned since then have all been steps along the way of evolution of the steering wheel controller, higher degree of turning rate from those early 270 degree wheel's to 900 and beyond. Force feedback gave better feeling of understeer/over steer etc. and subsequent wheels have all improved on that feedback through a variety of upgrades and the way the feedback is delivered. The control mechanism itself has moved on from cogs on a potentiometer, straight gears, helical gears, worm drives, belt drive and now direct drive using servo motors all trying to give you that authentic control and feedback. Rushing out and buying the best, most expensive wheel won't turn the average racer into a pro but it can certainly help.

A wheel will always provide better finer control, its simple mechanics that a wheel that can turn 900 degree's will give finer control than a joy pad ministick that moves left or right a few millimetres even if the sensor picking up that movement was the same resolution in the stick and wheel which I don't believe it is. You could place the same 16 bit resolution hall sensor in a joystick but extend the shaft of one of them by a metre and the extended stick would give you a much better chance of hitting the 65,536 values along the length of the X or Y axis than the shorter handled stick. If you want the finer control and a more immersive