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View Full Version : Brake temperature and cooling questions, need answers from veterans.



dyr_gl
18-05-2015, 11:00
1- Colour coding is generic or car specific? We know different cars have different optimum brake temps, so what is blue/green/red? Is it too cold/OK/hot brakes for YOUR car or is it just a generic measurement?

2- With default settings pretty much all car and track combos make you stay on "blue" brake zone. Are they very conservative or is "blue" better for performance than "green" brakes?

3- Brake temperatures affect tyre temperatures? If I close cooling a bit my tyres will get hotter?

Siberian Tiger
18-05-2015, 11:04
1- Colour coding is generic or car specific? We know different cars have different optimum brake temps, so what is blue/green/red? Is it too cold/OK/hot brakes for YOUR car or is it just a generic measurement?

2- With default settings pretty much all car and track combos make you stay on "blue" brake zone. Are they very conservative or is "blue" better for performance than "green" brakes?

3- Brake temperatures affect tyre temperatures? If I close cooling a bit my tyres will get hotter?

1. There are different Types of Brakes (Drum Brake / Steel / Carbon / Ceramic) they all have different Level of Optimum and also specific Coloring in HUD...
2. Default Setup's are for stability and Long Term Racing (less Fade) so yes, for short Races you can try to upping Brake Pressure.
3. Yes the Brake Temperatures has an effect on the Tires. The Brake's heat the Rim and the Rim gives Heat to the Tire.

That's all i know, and im not an Expert to explain in in Detail, but i hope it should answer your questions.

dyr_gl
18-05-2015, 13:13
1 is the most important. I want to know if I should close the cooling until I spend most of the time in "green" zone, or if the colours are just generic and donīt say much about your current ride optimum zone.

GenBrien
18-05-2015, 13:19
green is optimum temp for max braking performance. You don't want to have your brakes in the red beacause they'll fade and you'll lose braking power. Better having them blue than red.

Invincible
18-05-2015, 13:24
You can close the ducts until you stay in green. But you should make sure that you don't run into yellow / red after a few laps.

The colors are a bit vague - at least at the lower end. I think on some cars they turn green a bit too early, but when you're 100 - 150 degrees away from yellow or red, you're in the sweet spot.

(IDK if hot is yellow or red atm)

menaceuk
18-05-2015, 17:09
So what is the optimal Brake temp for the Aston Martin Rapide S GT4 car? I just done 5 laps or so on Dubai and it was already approaching or over 1000 degrees.

Casey Ringley
18-05-2015, 17:26
Units will eat your lunch! Is that 1000F or 1000C? Former is fine; just around peak for GT racing iron brakes. Latter would be a little toasty and lose a lot of performance while wearing out super fast.

menaceuk
18-05-2015, 17:30
Units will eat your lunch! Is that 1000F or 1000C? Former is fine; just around peak for GT racing iron brakes. Latter would be a little toasty and lose a lot of performance while wearing out super fast.

Fahrenheit.

So if I keep them around 1000F I am golden.

Casey Ringley
18-05-2015, 18:07
Yep. You'll start to notice badness if you get them over 1200F - mostly that friction starts to fall off and your brake bias will be come rather dynamic in a not fun way - but 1000F is all good.

In case anyone wants to get geeky about it, we used data like what Pagid has published for their RS29 (http://pagid.brakes-pads-discs.co.uk/products/rs29-yellow-ceramic-based.php) to calibrate the heat effects on braking torque for the iron brakes.

hkraft300
18-05-2015, 18:32
Not sure for brakes but I know tire temp colour code on the HUD is car-specific.
Some touring car tires are well green by ~80C but FA tires are going Blue at ~95C
Hadn't noticed brakes so much. Might run them hot to try keep heat in the front tires
Do a few laps of an FA car then try maybe an old touring car and check the temps :)

Casey Ringley
18-05-2015, 18:53
It is the same on brakes. Color coding for optimum per car then, I think, a 300C range around that to go either blue or red. That's only a rough guide, but good for a quick glance to see how they are doing. For instance, iron brakes run mostly fine when cold but fade a lot when hot while carbon brakes suck when cold and are just fine even very hot (though they will wear very fast if abused in that way).

Equation
19-05-2015, 09:32
What do you think, I put Brake Duct to 0 % when weather is raining did it going hot? I think that brakes get enought cooling from cold air and water but, did brakes suffer about that duct is closed?

Invincible
19-05-2015, 10:47
I am not sure if water-spray on the brakes is modeled, but cool air is. But if you set brake duct to 0, the only cooling possibility would be trough the rims. And for FA or LMP1 not even that as the brakes are fully enclosed, which would make them overheat really fast.

In a nutshell: 0% brake duct is never a good idea.

Equation
19-05-2015, 22:16
Looks that I have bunch of questions about brakes so let's go to the next question.

What is optimal temperature of racing car (like GT, Touring) brakes? What is temperature when brakes are too hot and don't work.

From Formula A I heard some engineer that those Carbon fiber brakes can go up to 1200 °C when Formula car is braking. I think that at those car need to be high duct size.

tux1234
19-05-2015, 23:01
Honestly i don't have a complete answer to "optimal" temperature but as long as they arent blue or red then your going to be ok.

Once we know the optimal temperature range then you should set the brakes up so that just before the braking zone for the longest straight they are at the lower end of the optimal range AND that at the end of the braking zone they are at the higher end.

Important thing for life of the disc and braking performance is not to over cool them, don't be afraid of the large numbers in game as the units are in Fahrenheit, for reference 1100 f is 593 degrees Celsius. Ive been racing the Aston Martin Vantage v12 in game and even with 30% brake ducts on a track like Monza the brakes didnt overheat once.

From what has been mentioned in this thread it seems the brakes have been modelled using information about the Pagid RS29 brakes, Pagid say the brakes have optimum performance between 400 & 600 degrees 752-1112 Farenheit. After that it starts to drop off, if you want to see the info its here. http://www.pagidracing.com/fileadmin/pagidracing/content_data/downloads/characteristics-2014.pdf

Interestingly it seems the brakes have very good performance from cold all the way up to high temperatures, which is reflected in game.

For wet weather you can really run very small brake ducts because you wont be braking as hard or from as higher speed (more aero, slower corner exits, spray). For reference when we were running cars often we wouldn't run any cooling through the actual ducts, just rely on air through the rims + water from the rain.

Another massively important point about temperatures is to keep an eye on brake balance and how hot the fronts & rears are compared to each other, the more pressure you put through the front or the rear the hotter that end of the car will get.

Also worth noting that on tracks with long straights the brakes will cool more than a track with short straights regardless of the harshness of the braking.

Finally, the longer the race is you may find the "average" brake temperature to creep up during the stint, so if your doing long runs just keep an eye on the temps, for example you might find in practice or qualifying after 3-5 laps the brakes will have an average temp of between 700-800 before braking and after say 20-25 laps it will be around 750-850, you don't get given an average temp in game but you can kind of work it out just by watching the temps over a few laps.

I hope that makes some sense and helps you if its wrong feel free to edit.

Equation
20-05-2015, 15:47
Honestly i don't have a complete answer to "optimal" temperature but as long as they arent blue or red then your going to be ok.

Once we know the optimal temperature range then you should set the brakes up so that just before the braking zone for the longest straight they are at the lower end of the optimal range AND that at the end of the braking zone they are at the higher end.

Important thing for life of the disc and braking performance is not to over cool them, don't be afraid of the large numbers in game as the units are in Fahrenheit, for reference 1100 f is 593 degrees Celsius. Ive been racing the Aston Martin Vantage v12 in game and even with 30% brake ducts on a track like Monza the brakes didnt overheat once.

From what has been mentioned in this thread it seems the brakes have been modelled using information about the Pagid RS29 brakes, Pagid say the brakes have optimum performance between 400 & 600 degrees 752-1112 Farenheit. After that it starts to drop off, if you want to see the info its here. http://www.pagidracing.com/fileadmin/pagidracing/content_data/downloads/characteristics-2014.pdf

Interestingly it seems the brakes have very good performance from cold all the way up to high temperatures, which is reflected in game.

For wet weather you can really run very small brake ducts because you wont be braking as hard or from as higher speed (more aero, slower corner exits, spray). For reference when we were running cars often we wouldn't run any cooling through the actual ducts, just rely on air through the rims + water from the rain.

Another massively important point about temperatures is to keep an eye on brake balance and how hot the fronts & rears are compared to each other, the more pressure you put through the front or the rear the hotter that end of the car will get.

Also worth noting that on tracks with long straights the brakes will cool more than a track with short straights regardless of the harshness of the braking.

Finally, the longer the race is you may find the "average" brake temperature to creep up during the stint, so if your doing long runs just keep an eye on the temps, for example you might find in practice or qualifying after 3-5 laps the brakes will have an average temp of between 700-800 before braking and after say 20-25 laps it will be around 750-850, you don't get given an average temp in game but you can kind of work it out just by watching the temps over a few laps.

I hope that makes some sense and helps you if its wrong feel free to edit.

Thank you about great answer. This is good information because I was thinking what is good temperature if there is more corners. This help me alot.

dyr_gl
20-05-2015, 21:37
After some testing, Iīm amazed how well brakes behave in the high zone of the blue. I kept closing and closing the ducts and I just canīt get them to green, the wheels overheat before that happens!

Is it a good idea to keep closing the ducts until the brakes go green and compensate the tyre overheating with more pressure? I canīt see the profit really.

PS: is it possible colours are bugged or something? Iīm still seeing "blue" at 750-800š with a GT3 car.

Equation
21-05-2015, 12:45
Formula 1 car optimal brake temperature is 650 °C, but the instantaneous maximum can be 1200 °C.

Source: http://www.f1technical.net/articles/2

tux1234
21-05-2015, 16:44
After some testing, Iīm amazed how well brakes behave in the high zone of the blue. I kept closing and closing the ducts and I just canīt get them to green, the wheels overheat before that happens!

Is it a good idea to keep closing the ducts until the brakes go green and compensate the tyre overheating with more pressure? I canīt see the profit really.

PS: is it possible colours are bugged or something? Iīm still seeing "blue" at 750-800š with a GT3 car.

Might well be a bug because when i am at 750-800 in game they are 100% green, the brakes do contribute to the heat of the tyre but shouldn't put so much temp into the tyre as to over pressurise the tyre its self.

TheLethalDose
22-05-2015, 05:16
I am not sure if water-spray on the brakes is modeled, but cool air is. But if you set brake duct to 0, the only cooling possibility would be trough the rims. And for FA or LMP1 not even that as the brakes are fully enclosed, which would make them overheat really fast.

In a nutshell: 0% brake duct is never a good idea.

I run 0% ducts on plenty of setups for hotlapping.

Alan Dallas
22-05-2015, 05:40
I run 0% ducts on plenty of setups for hotlapping.

If you really want to cheese the leaderboards in Time Trial; turn off mechanical failures, damage, and tire wear. Then close the radiator off while you're at it. :)

TheLethalDose
22-05-2015, 05:56
If you really want to cheese the leaderboards in Time Trial; turn off mechanical failures, damage, and tire wear. Then close the radiator off while you're at it. :)

Of course people are going to do whatever possible to give them the fastest time, no point getting mad about it.

Ducts open or closed, the top guys are still going to be the fastest.

hkraft300
22-05-2015, 07:32
PS: is it possible colours are bugged or something? Iīm still seeing "blue" at 750-800š with a GT3 car.

Is it possible you need to take an Ishihara test? 1 in 3 men are colourblind!

Lol jokes :p

dyr_gl
22-05-2015, 12:50
Of course people are going to do whatever possible to give them the fastest time, no point getting mad about it.

Ducts open or closed, the top guys are still going to be the fastest.

Not really. Plenty of people doesnīt want to pull that crap. Other will not hesitate to do any questionable stunt to see their name up there, and these will get a free second. Also those who donīt want to do that will quickly ignore this mode altogether.

Just like if you accept corner cutting different people is going to come on top, accepting these rubbish will make different people get on top.

Community TT should be on locked setups, no assists, no corner cutting, may the best win.

TheLethalDose
22-05-2015, 13:37
Not really. Plenty of people doesnīt want to pull that crap. Other will not hesitate to do any questionable stunt to see their name up there, and these will get a free second. Also those who donīt want to do that will quickly ignore this mode altogether.

Just like if you accept corner cutting different people is going to come on top, accepting these rubbish will make different people get on top.

Community TT should be on locked setups, no assists, no corner cutting, may the best win.

I guarantee even with your suggestions for TT the very same people will still be the best.

The cream always rises to the top whether you like it or not :)

Equation
22-05-2015, 16:30
Brake duct is dependent on the track and what car you use. Example Watkins Glen is pretty fast track and if you use example Formula C, there is hard to get heat to brakes, because you have to use brakes so bit and straights cooling brakes. Then you have to close ducts, but my minum ductpercent is 5 %.

dyr_gl
22-05-2015, 19:37
I guarantee even with your suggestions for TT the very same people will still be the best.

The cream always rises to the top whether you like it or not :)

I can guarantee you it will NOT be the case, and it only takes a look to what happens in other games to see youīre wrong by a country mile. Example? In F1 series TT allowed custom, medal TA didnīt. Leaders were not the same. TT leaders were scrubs using always 1-1 wings, using always max suspension stiffness, using always lowest ride height, etc. Every single broken exploitable setting, you get the idea. In TA that rubbish wasnīt avaliable, and these guys were nowhere. Their free second wasnīt there to help them.

It is very easy to figure why results will vary. Because in one case "the cream" consist of people on the fast side who have no shame to pull lame stuff. In the other scenario "the cream" are simply the guys who drive a car faster. Believe it or not at one point the idea of driving a Formula A with closed sidepods becomes cheap, smelly, and pointless. Donīt worry, youīll get there too.

Setting a car up to last a long race is an art full of compromises. Setting a car up for a hotlap just takes having no issue with exploiting cheap tricks and hitting restart all the time.

MULTIVITZ
22-05-2015, 20:18
Some of the cars I've been testing get really graby brakes when they come up to temp, I think its great, this game is gonna keep us on our toes. I look forward to breaking a few bits, burnt a set of slicks out today on the mk1 today lol We got tacho:cool:

MULTIVITZ
22-05-2015, 20:22
I mean tachometer, revcounter, a nice big one. Yeah bawyee.

wearymick
23-05-2015, 02:56
If you really want to cheese the leaderboards in Time Trial; turn off mechanical failures, damage, and tire wear. Then close the radiator off while you're at it. :)

Can't believe you are serious. It depends on how much time you have on your hands I guess. Having damage, mechanical and tyre wear on really only means that you will be selecting Restart more often. There is no performance advantage in having them off. As for closing ducts and vents, I doubt there is any material advantage to be had there either in real terms, but they are there in the tuning menu, and apparently having them open slows the car down. Pursuing authenticity is fine, and for many an end in itself, but it is ultimately only a matter of preferred illusion. At what point does a car setting become an exploit? How far does the slider have to go, or which combinations of settings are egregious? When does a game option become an exploit? When does the pursuit of speed begin to detract from the ideal of 'authenticity'? When the purists decry it apparently. There are many compromises within a racing game. For some people, common sense appears to be the first of them.

Zenzic
02-06-2015, 07:42
Since we're talking about brake temps: I did a few laps at Nordschleife yesterday with the RUF GT3 car. Clear weather, slicks, brake ducts set to 0%. The temperatures stayed nicely within the 400 to 500 degrees Celsius range, which surprised me. Is this normal with this car or track? I had expected them to get increasingly hotter.

danpinho
16-06-2015, 04:33
Since we're talking about brake temps: I did a few laps at Nordschleife yesterday with the RUF GT3 car. Clear weather, slicks, brake ducts set to 0%. The temperatures stayed nicely within the 400 to 500 degrees Celsius range, which surprised me. Is this normal with this car or track? I had expected them to get increasingly hotter.
Normal, you dont have too many hard breaking zones and they are not close to each other @ Nordschleife, thats enough to cool down your b. disks. If you go to Nürbugring GP with 0% BD you will clearly see the difference because you have hard braking zone that are closer to each other.

NBRacing16
19-06-2015, 02:59
It is all about how you drive and use the brakes and the brake duct openings

fl0wf1r3
02-04-2016, 10:45
2016 - I am still trying to figure out ideal brake discs temperatures. When there different types of discs inside Project Cars, they should be part of the detail description page. Acceleration, horse power, etc is nice to know but unimportant for the use of the car. Ideal/Max Temperatures should listed. These are the most important facts to know for driving and tuning a car. Sim or Arcade? please

btw: when brakes are locking up should be part of the telemetry page as well :) a visual feedback would be really helpful

hkraft300
02-04-2016, 11:13
All part of the testing process and the journey, no?
Sim indeed!
+1 for more detailed info in the garage section.
Carbon and modern steel brake temps are easy enough to figure out. ~600-1200c for carbon, ~350-750c for steel performance-wise, though I need to sus it out on the telemetry apps for brake wear on high temps. I struggle a bit to dial them in on older stuff like Group A/4 touring cars.

PS what a dig!

fl0wf1r3
03-04-2016, 14:31
+1 for more detailed info in the garage section ?

Perhaps I'm blind, but where do I see you what type of brakes a car has? I mean in the game and not in reality

hkraft300
03-04-2016, 15:14
+1 for more detailed info in the garage section

By that I meant I'd also like more info in the garage section. Everything from Casey's "Physics of" notes to power/torque figures, optimum temps etc that licensing allows.

Google: search about the specific car. Does it use Carbon vs Steel brakes?
Carbon brakes are on LMP 1/2/900, GT1, Formula A/B/Renault, Indy, Renault R.S.01 I think and some road cars.

Krus Control
03-04-2016, 17:13
btw: when brakes are locking up should be part of the telemetry page as well :) a visual feedback would be really helpful

There would need to be a complex display for this. There are definitely different degrees of wheels locking up. For instance, a lot of F1 drivers lock the inside front minutely and the wheel spin stutters. This would have to show differently than a lock up like Rosberg had at Sochi 2014. I think it would get complicated, but maybe something for PCARS 2.

Michael Moe
03-04-2016, 19:56
I have been driving alot on Lemans mostly around 08.00. 11.00 and 13.00 and have very different experience in brake and tiretemp. This is proberly correct simulated but i really have problems getting heat in the tires in the s turns in the morning. Must be even more difficult at night. Most hotlaps is set during the nighttime in real life. proberly because of density in the engine.

Can anyone help with some tips?

I have 0/7 rollbars and brakeduct at 10%. Corvette C7r

It is really nice how simulated track and ambient temp is simulated

Thanks

Michael Moe