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PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 17:29
I have a feeling that what I'm about to ask may be unpopular. But, as I understand it, the WMD forums are open only to those who were backers of the game. But the question is, what about those of us who have now bought the game? We've paid for the game so shouldn't we be able to at least see what's being said in the WMD forums?

Don't get me wrong, every WMD member I've come across on this forum has been helpful and courteous, and it's obvious that they're passing along as much information as they can, but I sense there's a bit of a feeling that some members are in the dark over certain things, such as why a lot of the in-game stuff says "coming soon", and the current state of updates. Like when are the pit crews going to be put back in, and so on.

I don't know how much people paid for access to the WMD forums when they became backers, or how much the minimum pledge was, but people have bought the game now, paying at least 40 on steam, and some people have bought more than one copy, so surely that should at least get them a small glimpse of what's going on behind the scenes?

I'm not trying to rock the boat here, as I said the WMD members are very helpful at passing along what information they have, I'm just thinking that perhaps it would be advantageous to the community to let those of us who are interested in the state and the further development of this game to have a bit more data. Or at least some more communication from the devs, like a weekly news bulletin posted at the top of the forum, or something.

Bealdor
18-05-2015, 17:31
WMD forums won't be opened for regular customers. Sorry.

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 17:36
But why? We paid. In my case 80 as I bought a copy for the PC and for the PS4, so shouldn't that allow us to at least view the forums? Or, as I said, some sort of weekly update like they do over at the Elite Dangerous forums with their weekly news letter.

MisterO
18-05-2015, 17:37
Don't worry, you are not missing anything important.

dwaynetheBLADE
18-05-2015, 17:39
But why? We paid. In my case 80 as I bought a copy for the PC and for the PS4, so shouldn't that allow us to at least view the forums? Or, as I said, some sort of weekly update like they do over at the Elite Dangerous forums with their weekly news letter.

I bought a coke but I dont expect to sit in on their board meetings m8

MysterG
18-05-2015, 17:43
The WMD forum is a development forum. This is a support forum.

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 17:44
Fine but it seems from the outside that there's more news being posted by the devs over there than there is over here. We just want to know the current state of things. The game was pushed back for release over and over again, and when it finally was released it was obviously still missing a lot of stuff, it would be nice if someone from the development side could communicate to us what's going on. As I said, a weekly newsletter wouldn't go amiss like the ones that have over at Elite Dangerous, an example of the Dev Update you can find here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143287

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 17:48
I bought a coke but I dont expect to sit in on their board meetings m8

Well, "m8", this is a completely different situation. Members of the Coke board are business men and women and part of the company. The WDM members pledged to the game to get access, basically buying the game before release. I don't know how much they paid, but with my experience of Elite Dangerous the cost was 50 to join during the beta phase. They should at least allow the other paying customers, some of which have possibly paid more, to see what's being said over there. It would be helpful to the community and would stop all the "when are we going to get some news?" posts.

From experience of the Codemasters F1 forums, it won't be long until members of the community start getting frustrated with the lack of communication.

Bealdor
18-05-2015, 17:52
Well, "m8", this is a completely different situation. Members of the Coke board are businessmen and women and part of the company. The WDM member pledged to the game to get access, basically buying the game before release. I don't know how much they paid, but with my experience of Elite Dangerous the cost was 50 to join during the beta phase. They should at least allow the other paying customer, some of which have possibly paid more, to see what's being said over there. It would be helpful to the community and would stop all the "when are we going to get some news?" posts.

No, it would just lead to new useless "OMG they scrapped feature x back in 2013! Why???" threads. Either here or at WMD (most likely in both forums).
WMD members not only put money in to watch the game being developed but to also take part in development.

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 17:55
No, it would just lead to new useless "OMG they scrapped feature x back in 2013! Why???" threads. Either here or at WMD (most likely in both forums).
WMD members not only put money in to watch the game being developed but to also take part in development.

Well that about a weekly newsletter to tell us about current developments and not stuff that was going on in 2013? Surely that can't be too hard to do?

As I said before, most of us who bought this game assumed that the reason it was put back time and time again was for bug fixing and polishing features, not taking stuff out. The game is good, I don't have much issue with it, but I was rather surprised to find several things marked as "coming soon". We should at least be getting some regular updates from the developers as to the state of play.

And as for the "taking part in development" isn't that exactly what we're doing now by reporting bugs and play testing an obviously unfinished game? It's pretty obvious that even though the game has gone gold it was released while still in at least the gamma phase of testing. It would be a different situation entirely if the game was released in a finished state and all SMS were doing now was working on DLC like car and track packs, but it isn't and they're not. We've all effectively paid to become testers, so why not treat us as such and give us a bit more information as to what is going on and a bit more input beyond reporting broken features?

MysterG
18-05-2015, 18:09
Fine but it seems from the outside that there's more news being posted by the devs over there than there is over here. We just want to know the current state of things. The game was pushed back for release over and over again, and when it finally was released it was obviously still missing a lot of stuff, it would be nice if someone from the development side could communicate to us what's going on. As I said, a weekly newsletter wouldn't go amiss like the ones that have over at Elite Dangerous, an example of the Dev Update you can find here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143287

I don't think I'd hold Frontier up as some shining example of how to keep people in the loop. ;) Besides they are further into their post release phase than us by a long way.

At the end of the day the WMD is a development forum and will never be opened up to the public.

I'm pretty sure once some of the bugs have been ironed out and the devs have time to breathe, they will give some insight into what might be coming in the future etc..

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 18:13
I don't think I'd hold Frontier up as some shining example of how to keep people in the loop. ;) Besides they are further into their post release phase than us by a long way.

At the end of the day the WMD is a development forum and will never be opened up to the public.

I'm pretty sure once some of the bugs have been ironed out and the devs have time to breathe, they will give some insight into what might be coming in the future etc..

No, but at least Frontier try to keep people informed. See my above post on my thoughts on the rest of your reply.

Mahjik
18-05-2015, 18:20
The WMD forum is an extension of SMS's workplace. It's not full access to everything, but it is a workplace for them which is why it's not open. The goal for this forum will be to be the public extension of their workplace. There will be important threads moved over but flooding their place of business with non-focused posts wouldn't be productive.

People here are having a hard time following when SMS posts on this forum. Imagine how much disruption it would be for SMS in their development forum.

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 18:33
It would be fine that the WMD forum was a closed development forum that buyers of the finished product don't get access to if development was finished and all SMS were doing now was working on DLC. But development is not finished, the game is not completed, and we've effectively paid to gain access to an in-development game the same way that the original PCars backers did, only this time we were told that we were getting a finished product and not an in development product that we've now effectively become testers for.

I've been a developer, I still am as I now make simple indie games for fun, and I know a beta/gamma/whatever test candidate when I see one. I undertsand that SMS probably had to release the game in this state in order to gain back some funds to help with further development. But how about a little bit of communication and allowning those of us who are now part of the post-release testing period to share some input beyond reporting bugs.

All I'm saying is what's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes. The game is still being developed, people bought into the beta to help development, we've bought what we thought was a finished product only to find that it's actually a gamma and is still in development. It's called Project CARS (community assisted race sim), we've paid to be part of the community so allows us have some information as to what's going on, and maybe a little bit of input into the development.

As I said, I'm not trying to rock the boat, I just think it's a little unfair on the rest of us that people were able to pay into helping with development during the beta phase, yet we've basically bought a game that's still effectively a test candidate and we have no say, very little news and no access to the development forums. I'm not saying we should be allowed to post in there, but we should at least be able to see the less classified information. Maybe have a separate forum for buyers to have their say. Not like the "suggested features" forum, but one where the developers actually answer back.

If the game was completed it would be a different matter. Development would be over, there would be no need for us to do much more than report bugs that slipped though testing. But the game is obviously not finished and it's missing some features. Testing is not over, because we're the ones testing it. With the already protracted development and release schedule many of us thought we were buying a finished game, not a gamma dressed as a finished game. So since the game is unfinished, give us regular updates and allow us to contribute to it until it is finished.

Mad Al
18-05-2015, 18:42
No WMD is a closed development forum period.. it's open to those who put money into tool pack(s) when the funding was open, it is not and will not be open to any other people until P Cars2 funding opens.. then you can pay your money and join in....

I'd say the "Coming Soon" bit is a non issue too.. you do know there will be additional content for the game, don't you.
As for the pit crew, yes it was pulled and yes it will come back when it is up to the job..

There has always been a plan to get this community involved, just not to the same sort of level as the WMD forums (for obvious reasons of scale, what happens in the WMD forums just would not work on a larger scale)

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 19:01
No WMD is a closed development forum period.. it's open to those who put money into tool pack(s) when the funding was open, it is not and will not be open to any other people until P Cars2 funding opens.. then you can pay your money and join in....

I'd say the "Coming Soon" bit is a non issue too.. you do know there will be additional content for the game, don't you.
As for the pit crew, yes it was pulled and yes it will come back when it is up to the job..

There has always been a plan to get this community involved, just not to the same sort of level as the WMD forums (for obvious reasons of scale, what happens in the WMD forums just would not work on a larger scale)

Well, personally, I think that stinks.

I've laid out my concerns on the matter in a polite and non-combative manner. I'm sure I speak for many other people around here that are a little concerned that we got three quarters of a game instead of a finished product, even after it was put back by several months.

None of my above suggestions would be hard to do, and may I remind you that WDM members are just members of the public the same way we are, the only difference is you've paid for a position of privilege that the rest of us don't have. Yet we've also paid and we don't have any input. As I said previously, it would be perfectly fine and equitable to have a closed development forum that the general public don't have access to if the development was done and all SMS were working on is DLC like car packs and tracks, but it's not. We bought a still in development game, we've effectively paid to be testers, but we weren't told we were going to be testers, unlike the WMD members, and now we can't contribute.

You may not like this next part, and it's not my intention to offend, but I feel it needs to be pointed out.

The game is called Project CARS, I'm sure you know that already. Community Assisted Race Sim. Shouldn't that mean that all community members should be equal? Or is the WMD community more equal than the rest? How can it be a proper community when it's segregated? Perhaps it's really a con and it's not really "Comminity Assisted Race Sim" at all and is actually "Community Assisted Race Sim (but only if you joined at the start. The rest of you are there just to add funding for our little club!)". The game even makes a big point of saying "developed with WMD" as soon as it loads, as if it's going "Ner, ner! We're in our own little gang and you can't join! You've bought the game to support us but you'll never be a member."

I wholeheartedly apologise if that last part sounded harsh, but that's how it looks from the outside with some of the "NO! WMD is a closed group!" replies I've had on here so far.

fr13del
18-05-2015, 19:02
No WMD is a closed development forum period.. it's open to those who put money into tool pack(s) when the funding was open, it is not and will not be open to any other people until P Cars2 funding opens.. then you can pay your money and join in....

I'd say the "Coming Soon" bit is a non issue too.. you do know there will be additional content for the game, don't you.
As for the pit crew, yes it was pulled and yes it will come back when it is up to the job..

There has always been a plan to get this community involved, just not to the same sort of level as the WMD forums (for obvious reasons of scale, what happens in the WMD forums just would not work on a larger scale)

So, can you and all the other Wmd-members then please stop posting links to the forbidden forums? Just like the link in your signature?

Neil Hopwood
18-05-2015, 19:05
So, can you and all the other Wmd-members then please stop posting links to the forbidden forums? Just like the link in your signature?

Just fyi this forum and the wmd forum share profiles, and links in signatures are left over from that. I'm not sure most people even thought about it.

Mahjik
18-05-2015, 19:10
I wholeheartedly apologise if that last part sounded harsh, but that's how it looks from some of the "NO! WMD is a closed group!" replies I've had on here so far.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion. My recommendation is to stay with "this" community and be on the look out when pCARS 2 gets started up. Granted, it's not going to be any time soon, but you seem to have a lot of passion for being involved so keeping up to date on pCARS 1 will likely eventually open the doors of WMD to you via pCARS 2.


So, can you and all the other Wmd-members then please stop posting links to the forbidden forums? Just like the link in your signature?

The WMD member accounts were automatically copied over to this forum (along with signatures). i.e. he didn't put that signature there on purpose to tease non-WMD members.

rbl
18-05-2015, 19:10
So, can you and all the other Wmd-members then please stop posting links to the forbidden forums? Just like the link in your signature?
This might not be intentional - all the users from WMD forum were transfered over to this forum when it was created and all our avatars, signatures, forum settings etc. were copied with it.

MisterO
18-05-2015, 19:11
I really need to say it again: You're not missing anything by not having access to WMD-forums. It's no magical place. The input you give here is as important (maybe even more important because you have a fresh view in the game) as the input you could give at WMD. Devs are reading here as well.

Skullblits69
18-05-2015, 19:12
Just have faith in them informing us. Devs are busy with patching the game.

Mad Al
18-05-2015, 19:18
So, can you and all the other Wmd-members then please stop posting links to the forbidden forums? Just like the link in your signature?

Of course, I'll remove the link (as I'm sure you don't really want a utility to delete your profile and graphics configuration files on a daily basis) and the ref to what tool packs I have on the WMD forums.. as I'm sure no one needs to know how much I put into it (except the tax man of course)

There you go :)

FA RACING 01
18-05-2015, 19:18
I agree with the OP that it's good to be informed on latest progress, but there's certainly not a lack of that. Just search for Ian Bell's posts and it gives much more than most racing forums I know of.

Buying a game also doesn't mean you own the game with certain unlimited rights. It simply gives you limited rights to play it. I think SMS will be stupid to share most info re. development stages for many obvious reasons.

Personally I'm much more interested in what lies ahead than to know where certain issues are coming from or what the reasoning behind them was. The latter just seems like creating a new minefield that will conserve too much energy on useless info instead of using that energy on ways to get the players happy as possibly can.

Just my 2 cents.

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 19:21
You are definitely entitled to your opinion. My recommendation is to stay with "this" community and be on the look out when pCARS 2 gets started up. Granted, it's not going to be any time soon, but you seem to have a lot of passion for being involved so keeping up to date on pCARS 1 will likely eventually open the doors of WMD to you via pCARS 2.

That's fine. I've no intentions of quitting. I enjoy the game and I think, even in it's current state, it's one of the best racing sims I've played. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from?

Without wanting to sound rude again, to use an analogy, it's like someone opens a club in your neighbourhood and then allows everyone there to pay for a membership pack. On the club is a big sign that says "made possible by the community!" But when you try to get in you're told "sorry, you didn't help build the club, so you can't come in." You protest with "But I have a membership! I PAID for a membership!" Only to get the reply "Yes, but that only gives you access to occasional news bulletins when we aren't too busy to send them out. If you wanted into the club you should have joined during our planning phase three years ago!"

Mahjik
18-05-2015, 19:28
That's fine. I've no intentions of quitting. I enjoy the game and I think, even in it's current state, it's one of the best racing sims I've played. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from?

Without wanting to sound rude again, to use an analogy, it's like someone opens a club in your neighbourhood and then allows everyone there to pay for a membership pack. On the club is a big sign that says "made possible by the community!" But when you try to get in you're told "sorry, you didn't help build the club, so you can't come in." You protest with "But I have a membership! I PAID for a membership!" Only to get the reply "Yes, but that only gives you access to occasional news bulletins when we aren't too busy to send them out. If you wanted into the club you should have joined during our planning phase three years ago!"

I do understand your frustration. I could provide several analogies of similar models (not like your analogy, but like WMD) today, but that wouldn't really help, would it? ;)

However, SMS does read this forum everyday so just know that they do see and read the (meaningful) posts here. That more than I can say for most development teams out there today (yes, I'm in IT/software development as well).

PeteUplink
18-05-2015, 19:36
I That more than I can say for most development teams out there today (yes, I'm in IT/software development as well).

That I understand. I'm not going to mention names, but I know of a fair few companies that pretty much ignore all input from their customers. One of these companies also makes racing games and has been the subject of quite a bit of news about mistreatment of employees, too.