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View Full Version : "Invalidated lap" - solution proposal



Jabbar993
19-05-2015, 11:41
Hi all,
I think Iīve come to a quite good solution for invalidated laps. I personally donīt have large problem with detections etc., but it is sometimes a real shame that you cannot post a laptime just because of genuine mistakes. Here is what I propose:
I wouldnīt touch the detection system itself, as it is acceptable in most cases. However, the idea is, that "invalidated lap" should be also treated as a completed lap by the game with two differences. The time would be printed in red instead of white. Furthermore, this "invalidated laptime" would not be eligible to score neither positions in practice/qualifying nor times for the leaderboards. However, these laptimes would still be written next to driver name in the game, just without positions and would come right after all the valid laps. E.g. online, drivers with "invalidated laptimes" would be classified according to the fastest "invalidated times", but their positions will be not better than the clean driversī even if they were a minute faster. If they manage a clean lap, this "invalidated lap" would be replaced and the clean one treated as faster, even if itīs slower in reality. This way, you can have an idea how fast you were even with mistakes. The red laps would not disappear like they do now.
Is my idea clear? I think it would really help the game in some cases.

LordDRIFT
19-05-2015, 11:57
Mmmm I don't know. I don't like the system in place but what you suggest is open for exploitation since the system cannot detect a genuine mistake.

Jabbar993
19-05-2015, 12:06
There is no need for that, the system would treat every invalidated lap the same.. If itīs problem in qualifying, just add cutting-track penalties like in races and then no exploitation is possible..
Moreover, if there are e.g. 20 drivers with clean laps and 3 with invalidated, then the invalidated would still be classified in 21-23 according to their time, which will be visible, but this will be the case even if they are 10s faster than the man on pole..

Jan Studenski
19-05-2015, 12:17
My opinion :D Sry but no .. the system like it is, is very good

You go offtrack = Invalidate Laptime ... Solution: Just stay on the track

What is missing: Stricter rules at some tracks / spots ... but thats nitpicking

creepyd
19-05-2015, 12:35
Sometimes it's too strict though.
e.g. Laguna you can go off the track and have your next lap invalidated on the 2nd to last bend - nothing you do there can possibly speed you up going over the starting line as you still have a very slow hairpin to go around anyway!

Overall it's frustrating but necessary - you can be sure there aren't any cheaty times :)

Jabbar993
19-05-2015, 12:38
My opinion :D Sry but no .. the system like it is, is very good

You go offtrack = Invalidate Laptime ... Solution: Just stay on the track

What is missing: Stricter rules at some tracks / spots ... but thats nitpicking

Sorry, but youīre missing my point.. Iīm also happy with invalidated laps, I just want the game to keep track of both valid and invalid laps, only disallowing the invalid ones to count towards anything.

KK78
19-05-2015, 12:38
So when you hit a cone that is lying on the track, or a driver who loses control in a split second, or a rumble strip bizarrely invalidates your lap, or you swerve to avoid a crashed car and go slightly off track or you get pushed off track by an opponent that's all fair is it?

It's a pointless mechanic imo.

Mahjik
19-05-2015, 12:41
The OP is wanting to see the lap time regardless if it's counted or not. The only difference is that an invalid lap would have a different color but you at least get to see what it was...

I'm not entirely sure it would be useful. I don't use the lap timer but that would be the only place it would be useful (if it's not already done there currently). It wouldn't make sense to show an invalid lap time during a qualifying session.

Jabbar993
19-05-2015, 12:49
The OP is wanting to see the lap time regardless if it's counted or not. The only difference is that an invalid lap would have a different color but you at least get to see what it was...

I'm not entirely sure it would be useful. I don't use the lap timer but that would be the only place it would be useful (if it's not already done there currently). It wouldn't make sense to show an invalid lap time during a qualifying session.

Exactly! I see two benefits of this - you can compare your future laps to your quickest invalid one UNTIL you score first valid, the invalid would then be erased even if it was faster. Second - in random online sessions, youīd get an idea how fast you are, because now itīs almost impossible with say 15min qualifying and some fast drivers making mistakes with some barely managing a lap (invalid laps wouldnīt count for positions).

Mad Al
19-05-2015, 12:56
So when you hit a cone that is lying on the track, or a driver who loses control in a split second, or a rumble strip bizarrely invalidates your lap, or you swerve to avoid a crashed car and go slightly off track or you get pushed off track by an opponent that's all fair is it?

It's a pointless mechanic imo.

rumble strip invalidates a lap... can you say where that one happens ?

I will say that the only time lap times are really relevant is when in TT, so then you are only racing yourself and the track (so no one else is going to be in your way) and quali, where you do have to do a little bit of work to get yourself a clean lap (and that's part of the art).

FA RACING 01
19-05-2015, 13:16
The OP's proposal is kinda how the Rival LB's works in FORZA where all "invalid" times are marked with an exclamation mark and are inferior to legitimate laps. So it's comparing illegal lap times against illegal lap times, whatever that tells you.

justonce68
19-05-2015, 14:42
Clean or dirty its simple, if you cant get a clean lap slow down learn the track and improve The track limits are the track limits.
If you touch another vehicle it also invalidates your lap. This isn't rocket science, we all get pissed off at missing an apex or running wide but that's what makes getting a perfect lap so much sweeter when you hook one up. Why would you want an illegal lap recorded?
If a ball goes out of play in football its a throw in, if an athlete runs outside his lane he's DQ, there is no grey area

KK78
19-05-2015, 14:53
rumble strip invalidates a lap... can you say where that one happens ?

I will say that the only time lap times are really relevant is when in TT, so then you are only racing yourself and the track (so no one else is going to be in your way) and quali, where you do have to do a little bit of work to get yourself a clean lap (and that's part of the art).

Hi there, I've had invalidated laps on rumble strips at Imola, Brand Hatch and Monza where the rumble strips are extended so it's less obvious where they end (I use a bonnet view) if the run-off strips on tracks such as these and other like Hockenheim & Spa can be used in real life why not in the game, been able to carry speed is a critical part of fast times.

As for why would I want an illegal lap to count? It's only illegal within the game, many real life motorsports are not so excessive in cancelling laps for minor infringements over the white line and I was under the impression that Project Cars was trying to be as realistic as possible. I am liking the game and appreciate this is an aspect which would be difficult to code/develop but it's a shame that the mechanic as it stands is so broad brush and quite random at times.

Mad Al
19-05-2015, 15:25
Hi there, I've had invalidated laps on rumble strips at Imola, Brand Hatch and Monza where the rumble strips are extended so it's less obvious where they end (I use a bonnet view) if the run-off strips on tracks such as these and other like Hockenheim & Spa can be used in real life why not in the game, been able to carry speed is a critical part of fast times.

As for why would I want an illegal lap to count? It's only illegal within the game, many real life motorsports are not so excessive in cancelling laps for minor infringements over the white line and I was under the impression that Project Cars was trying to be as realistic as possible. I am liking the game and appreciate this is an aspect which would be difficult to code/develop but it's a shame that the mechanic as it stands is so broad brush and quite random at times.

So were you actually off the rumble strip?... (you can always pause, and view replay to check, if you then consider that you have not strayed off the kerb, post a video or pic to show the exact location and if it's considered a major issue then it can be looked at)

My take on how fair (or otherwise) the invalidations are.. firstly, they are the same for everyone, it's not like you are being picked on. Secondly, once you know where they are, you can avoid them (or continue to push those extra mm until you hit them...) and yes, they can be annoying, especially on longer tracks where you have managed to get it together for a full lap, only to stick a wheel over the edge on the last corner, but as I've said, it's the same for everyone and I've actually found the invalidations less aggressive than Forza.

Oh and bonnet view... stop cheating and get in the F**king cockpit ;)

justonce68
19-05-2015, 15:58
Hi there, I've had invalidated laps on rumble strips at Imola, Brand Hatch and Monza where the rumble strips are extended so it's less obvious where they end (I use a bonnet view) if the run-off strips on tracks such as these and other like Hockenheim & Spa can be used in real life why not in the game, been able to carry speed is a critical part of fast times.

As for why would I want an illegal lap to count? It's only illegal within the game, many real life motorsports are not so excessive in cancelling laps for minor infringements over the white line and I was under the impression that Project Cars was trying to be as realistic as possible. I am liking the game and appreciate this is an aspect which would be difficult to code/develop but it's a shame that the mechanic as it stands is so broad brush and quite random at times.

Sorry dude but you cant request realism when it benefits you, but also drive in arcade (bonnet view) when that is as far from realism as it gets. SMS are trying their best to cater for everyone but they have to draw the line somewhere.

KK78
19-05-2015, 16:42
Sorry dude but you cant request realism when it benefits you, but also drive in arcade (bonnet view) when that is as far from realism as it gets. SMS are trying their best to cater for everyone but they have to draw the line somewhere.

That makes no sense since you'd have even less chance of seeing the very edge of the track if you were in cockpit view. How is using the bonnet view 'arcade' anyway? As for requesting realism because it benefits me? What does that even mean? Realism is as close to real life motorsport in my view and I'd like a game that didn't have what I perceive to be a lazy, tenuous and unrealistic system supposedly for ensuring idiots don't cheat but in reality punishes everyone for touching over the white line for ANY reason which seems crazy considering Ai and other players will knock you or put off line pretty regularly.

It's cool though we differ in opinion and I don't expect it will change as it will take a lot more of a sophisticated system to properly address the gaining an unfair advantage vs allowing for small errors/collisions/swerves.

I personally just find it frustrating that qualification sessions, in online races in particular, are sometimes rendered pointless because your performance can be overshadowed by the random actions of others or that investing 8 minutes around Nordschleife can be undone by a slight mistake or even a dodgy kerb.

Anyway it seems to be acceptable for some people so it's pointless me going on about so I'll button it.

Mahjik
19-05-2015, 17:34
KK78, it shouldn't invalidate the lap from using the rumble strips. My guess is that either you are over the rumble strips on the outside of the vehicle or that you used some of the grass after the rumble strip (those who also drive iRacing are used to that last part). It's hard to say without a video or pictures which may not be as easy to get on the PS4, but it would help to make sure that while the current behavior isn't desired, that it's at least working as intended.

Ripgroove
19-05-2015, 17:38
The current system is perfectly fine how it is.

GregT_1903
19-05-2015, 18:02
The best solution is to let the user(s) decide for themselves if you could get penalized for going offtrack or not.

Add one simple checkmark in one of the menus (for singleplayer) or in the hosting setup menu for multiplayer to have this penalty active or not.

Adding the checkmark for this penalty (active/not active) should not be too difficult to implement either I guess.
Would solve many problems people have with the 'invalid laptime' penalty.

For those cutting a complete corner (chicane and all 4 wheels offtrack) the penalty should stay active.

KK78
19-05-2015, 18:30
The best solution is to let the user(s) decide for themselves if you could get penalized for going offtrack or not.

Add one simple checkmark in one of the menus (for singleplayer) or in the hosting setup menu for multiplayer to have this penalty active or not.

Adding the checkmark for this penalty (active/not active) should not be too difficult to implement either I guess.
Would solve many problems people have with the 'invalid laptime' penalty.

For those cutting a complete corner (chicane and all 4 wheels offtrack) the penalty should stay active.

Exactly, @Mahjik I'll keep an eye out of it happening again and get a video.

Ripgroove
19-05-2015, 20:13
The best solution is to let the user(s) decide for themselves if you could get penalized for going offtrack or not.

Add one simple checkmark in one of the menus (for singleplayer) or in the hosting setup menu for multiplayer to have this penalty active or not.

Adding the checkmark for this penalty (active/not active) should not be too difficult to implement either I guess.
Would solve many problems people have with the 'invalid laptime' penalty.

For those cutting a complete corner (chicane and all 4 wheels offtrack) the penalty should stay active.

Then how would that work with online games and Time Trials and community events and such? To be honest this whole idea is silly, learn to race a clean lap, if you come off the track and invalidate the lap who cares? just do another lap, the whole point of time trials is to get around the track clean and fast, stringing together a fast legal lap is half the fun and where the real skill comes in, many people can drive sections of tracks quick but keeping your cool and putting the whole thing together is the whole damn point.