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wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 12:52
Guys this forum is seriously becoming divided imho, you have the WMD members and a good few of the PC members taking the mick it would seem out of a lot of the console members post's.

I though this forum was to ask questions and to post your concerns, ok a lot of what gets posted is aggressive but not all, I've seen totally understandable questions get ripped apart by WMD members ( again not all) and then you get the PC guys tell members to stop crying ect, bearing in mind PC players only make up around 6% of total project cars sales I think console players have a right to voice themselves.

I personally will be glad when the game is fixed so I no longer have to come on here to ask anything.

The game has the making to be great this forum not so much.

Mahjik
19-05-2015, 12:59
Honestly, it's non-WMD members taking everything out of context.

The WMD members have finally come to understand how software development works. Nothing happens overnight. Things take time to investigate, determine a solution, and deliver one. The WMD members have learned this process over the last 4 years. The users who have recently purchased pCARS are all demanding things immediately. When a WMD member suggests things are being looked at and then suggests some patience, they get flagged as being aggressive and oppressive which is utterly silliness.

The WMD members just understand how the process works and are doing their best to communicate it.

MysterG
19-05-2015, 13:02
If you are unhappy with a post then report it, WMD member involved or not.

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:04
Honestly, it's non-WMD members taking everything out of context.

The WMD members have finally come to understand how software development works. Nothing happens overnight. Things take time to investigate, determine a solution, and deliver one. The WMD members have learned this process over the last 4 years. The users who have recently purchased pCARS are all demanding things immediately. When a WMD member suggests things are being looked at and then suggests some patience, they get flagged as being aggressive and oppressive which is utterly silliness.

The WMD members just understand how the process works and are doing their best to communicate it.

Honestly this post alone sums up my first post perfectl, infact your opening few lines.

This is not going to be a very nice place to communicate soon imho.

menidi
19-05-2015, 13:05
I would say that WMD Members are subjective. This is due to the fact that they has vested interest in the overall success of the game, hence their defensive approach to every negative feedback.

JessicaWalter
19-05-2015, 13:06
Don't lump us all in together. i was gonna join wmd but it still wasn't certain pcars would be available on consoles and i don't have a capable pc to appreciate the game. (:

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:07
If you are unhappy with a post then report it, WMD member involved or not.

Honestly, I think I'd just sooner come on here look for an answer to my question and leave.

Boyd12
19-05-2015, 13:08
Although I have seen a lot of WMD members defending the game I have noticed some that have been disappointed with it but those members may not have spent as much time helping with the game perhaps.

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:10
Don't lump us all in together. i was gonna join wmd but it still wasn't certain pcars would be available on consoles and i don't have a capable pc to appreciate the game. (:

Sorry buddy wasn't my intention to lump everyone together, it just appears to be a very condescending forum or at least turning into one.

Mr Akina
19-05-2015, 13:16
It must be hard for them working so hard on a project and for it to be publicly slated (I've worked in similar environments on magazines), but that's a part of development. You will get blinkered to what you are doing and you will have to make unpopular compromises when it comes to the finished product. Hopefully, things can be done to rescue the game and improve it on all platforms.

As an Xbox gamer using a controller, I am at the bottom of the pCARS food chain. As a racing fan (nerd, obsessive, otaku... whatever) I'm disappointed at both the lack of attention to detail and the lack of prior testing. I'll work for FREE on pCARS2 if you want me :)

I think people are fed up with answering the same old questions and seeing the same old posts time and again. Obviously frustration will creep in as the team do not have any answers at the moment. Welcome to the internet lol

DirkR
19-05-2015, 13:17
I think because of the console release a lot of 'new' sim racers come the this forum.
People who are used to Forza or GT, or even NFS.

Poeple just need to have some patience, patches will come.
Kicking and screaming like a little b*tch won't get you anywhere.

riverreveal
19-05-2015, 13:22
The users who have recently purchased pCARS are all demanding things immediately

I think its a bit much to say all. I have recently purchased pCARS and havent demanded anything, sure theres things I want looked at but after its been in development for so many years Im not expecting fixes straight away and despite the issues I personally love it as it is now and what I imagine it will become.

I actually think the majority of new members/players are being relatively patient. I can understand some of the impatience, when a product is released as 1.0 version and some parts are broken or not working correctly (see xbox one issue thread) then people will want fixes. Sure WMD members have see it slowly evolve but not everyone has had that luxury, some people have bought it and it expect it to be working, not in a months time, but after they paid the money. If WMD members or new players or whoever cant understand that then maybe retail releases and forums arent for them.

I didnt actually agree with everything the OP said, but to see a WMD member respond with that attitude isnt very helpful and actually makes the OP relevant. These boards should be for everybody.

NVI0U5
19-05-2015, 13:22
Too many fanboys hating on each other, thats the underlying problem, its not so in face but bring 3 gaming machines with fans with them will bash each other over it. There's just not enough respect these days

Roger Prynne
19-05-2015, 13:24
I for one have been with the project for 4 years and have nearly 6,000 posts on the WMD forum.
I have only ever tried to help people with problems and have never had this kind of abuse that we get on this forum.
I understand how things work and stick to the rules of conduct.
99% of WMD members do the same....
so don't put us in the same class as some of the members on this forum that have just joined and have no idea of how to conduct themselves.
I find it very insulting at times.

Robbo-92
19-05-2015, 13:27
It's the same on a lot of forums.

You have the patient, understanding people who can see what the game could be and are willing to wait.
You have the people who can see what the game could be but don't seem as willing to wait.

Both parties want pretty much the same thing but just have a different way of expressing their desired opinion, the game will get there in the end, don't worry! :)


It must be hard for them working so hard on a project and for it to be publicly slated (I've worked in similar environments on magazines), but that's a part of development. You will get blinkered to what you are doing and you will have to make unpopular compromises when it comes to the finished product. Hopefully, things can be done to rescue the game and improve it on all platforms.

As an Xbox gamer using a controller, I am at the bottom of the pCARS food chain. As a racing fan (nerd, obsessive, otaku... whatever) I'm disappointed at both the lack of attention to detail and the lack of prior testing. I'll work for FREE on pCARS2 if you want me :)

I think people are fed up with answering the same old questions and seeing the same old posts time and again. Obviously frustration will creep in as the team do not have any answers at the moment. Welcome to the internet lol

No offence but the Xbox One users are not at the bottom of the Project CARS food chain, that space is currently reserved for all the people who are eagerly awaiting the game to be released on Wii U! :p

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:28
I for one have been with the project for 4 years and have nearly 6,000 posts on the WMD forum.
I have only ever tried to help people with problems and have never had this kind of abuse that we get on this forum.
I understand how things work and stick to the rules of conduct.
99% of WMD members do the same.... so don't put us in the same class as some of the members on this forum that have just joined and have no idea of how to conduct themselves.

So don't put you WMD guy's in the same class as new members that are only just joining? Wow I really don't know what to say to that. I'm not sure I even have to

Mr Akina
19-05-2015, 13:28
No offence but the Xbox One users are not at the bottom of the Project CARS food chain, that space is currently reserved for all the people who are eagerly awaiting the game to be released on Wii U! :p

Touché

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:33
Xbox one users makeup around 40 % of project car's sales ps4 about 53% PC is around 7% if you don't believe goggle it.

Francorchamps
19-05-2015, 13:34
I haven't noticed any denigrating remarks from WMD members to me or my posts and I'm a PS4 user. What I do notice and it doesn't bother me is that the WMD members are like a sort of incrowd. It feels a bit like going to school and try to blend in. You survived school so I think there is not a real problem for blending in.

Umer Ahmad
19-05-2015, 13:39
But what unites us is our desire to enjoy this game. The best racing game in many years.

There will be 2 mechanisms how we can improve our experience: a. Rely on SMS and b. rely on ourselves

"A" is the traditional approach. "B" is the more interesting method. I'm beginning to see some patterns for XB1 users:
+ Game installed on external HDD
+ Zero deadzone
+ min steering sensitivity
+ max slow steering ratio

Yes these are simply work-arounds until mechanism A delivers. We had many instances and problems that were community-discovered and community-solved during WMD. Dont under-estimate each other.

NVI0U5
19-05-2015, 13:41
I haven't noticed any denigrating remarks from WMD members to me or my posts and I'm a PS4 user. What I do notice and it doesn't bother me is that the WMD members are like a sort of incrowd. It feels a bit like going to school and try to blend in. You survived school so I think there is not a real problem for blending in.

Ýes they do have their own cliché, I have no desire to be part of it I just like my little green light which says NVIOUS will become famous soon enough ;P

Umer Ahmad
19-05-2015, 13:42
I haven't noticed any denigrating remarks from WMD members to me or my posts and I'm a PS4 user. What I do notice and it doesn't bother me is that the WMD members are like a sort of incrowd. It feels a bit like going to school and try to blend in. You survived school so I think there is not a real problem for blending in.
There's really no differenc between WMD members and non-WMD members except time.

We simply arrived earlier in SMS-land. We're students, husbands, fathers, wives*, mothers, daughters who love racing games like the rest of you newcomers. Now we're all 1 group.

edit: any WMD members recall Mrs. Dash from TGC season 1? She was quick in the Zonda!

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:43
But what unites us is our desire to enjoy this game. The best racing game in many years.

There will be 2 mechanisms how we can improve our experience: a. Rely on SMS and b. rely on ourselves

"A" is the traditional approach. "B" is the more interesting method. I'm beginning to see some patterns for XB1 users:
+ Game installed on external HDD
+ Zero deadzone
+ min steering sensitivity
+ max slow steering ratio

Yes these are simply work-arounds until mechanism A delivers. We had many instances and problems that were community-discovered and community-solved during WMD. Dont under-estimate each other.

Best reply in this thread by a mile.

Revvin
19-05-2015, 13:46
Its not going to help anyone trying to create a 'them and us' mentality on the forums. The game isn't perfect but its not as broken as some people make out but I do believe SMS will stand by their game and improve it and that's something we can all help with by posting constructive criticism as it will benefit all of us in the long term.

Invincible
19-05-2015, 13:46
Of course WMD is a sort of incrowd - most of the WMD members spent nearly 4 years together in the WMD forum. Just compare this to real life - put a bunch of people together for a few years: Either they rip themselves apart or they grow together. Some more, some less.

Now add an even greater group of people - what do you think will happen? Especially if some people of the new group seem aggressive? Correct, they stay in their group. They aren't opposed to incorporate new members to their group, but it will be a kinda slow progress.

But sooner or later the new people will show the same affiliation as the former group. I already see a lot of non-WMD people who provide great help to others, who try so solve problems and make suggestions in a great way.

I don't think that the forum will get more divided - it will become LESS divided, post by post, thread by thread.

Sankyo
19-05-2015, 13:51
I'm not seeing much use in keeping this thread open unless someone convinces me/us moderators otherwise. There is no division, only a difference in insight/knowledge/experience/history with the game.

Nahkamarakatti
19-05-2015, 13:55
Its not going to help anyone trying to create a 'them and us' mentality on the forums. The game isn't perfect but its not as broken as some people make out but I do believe SMS will stand by their game and improve it and that's something we can all help with by posting constructive criticism as it will benefit all of us in the long term.

If the sim is "not as broken as some people make out" for you, it doesn't mean that it couldn't be as broken on someones pc. Honestly I can say the sim has not been this broken in my pc during the WMD times.

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 13:56
I'm not seeing much use in keeping this thread open unless someone convinces me/us moderators otherwise. There is no division, only a difference in insight/knowledge/experience/history with the game.

Sorry close it.

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 13:59
My personal feeling on this is that there is currently a huge amount of duplicated threads and as others have mentioned answering the same questions over and over again is tedious for everyone involved. I personally have seen nothing to complain about from any WMD members but I couldn't blame them (or anyone else) for getting slightly frustrated over the amount of threads that have been clearly been posted without searching for an existing thread to add your information to or find a solution in.

There are also a large number of threads that are started in an aggressive or demanding manner and that is hardly going to make anyone keen to help the poster.

I would like to see people spend more time searching for existing threads before posting something which invariably has been spotted before and likely acknowledged or a work around found.



As an aside OP do you have any source for your statement of 6% of sales being on PC, that seems incredibly low.

FA RACING 01
19-05-2015, 14:02
Best reply in this thread by a mile.

Agreed on close it and agreed on best reply. Moving on to the Game will be much more interesting.

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 14:07
There are many more if you Google bit here's a quick link.

https://steamcommunity.com/linkfilter/?url=http://www.nextpowerup.com/news/20922/project-cars-sales-ps4-is-leading-platform-with-63-sales-xbox-one-accounts-for-31/

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 14:09
There are many more if you Google bit here's a quick link.

https://steamcommunity.com/linkfilter/?url=http://www.nextpowerup.com/news/20922/project-cars-sales-ps4-is-leading-platform-with-63-sales-xbox-one-accounts-for-31/

Check the comments, that is only taking into account physical boxed PC sales by the sound of it. Digital downloads probably account for well over 90% of PC sales and these are not being counted. In reality I would expect PC is very close to if not the leading platform for the game.

Ian Bell
19-05-2015, 14:10
Check the comments, that is only taking into account physical boxed PC sales by the sound of it. Digital downloads probably account for well over 90% of PC sales and these are not being counted. In reality I would expect PC is very close to if not the leading platform for the game.

For this type of game PC sales normally max out at about 10% of total sales.

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 14:17
For this type of game PC sales normally max out at about 10% of total sales.

That is interesting, are the 6% figures quoted in those links including digital downloads then?

Mr Akina
19-05-2015, 14:20
That is interesting, are the 6% figures quoted in those links including digital downloads then?

I don't think boxed/digital are collated separately. So yes, they will include digital.

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 14:29
I don't think boxed/digital are collated separately. So yes, they will include digital.

I am seeing sources that say Steam don't publish sales figures and therefore these figures are unlikely to include (most) digital downloads. I am looking for something reputable rather than forum posts at the moment.

Ian Bell
19-05-2015, 14:29
That is interesting, are the 6% figures quoted in those links including digital downloads then?

I'd be guessing if I said I knew, sorry.

Pablo2008jedi
19-05-2015, 14:30
Regardless of WMD or non-WMD

Console version of the game got very little testing compared to the PC version. This is due to the expense of providing betas by Sony/Microsoft. SMS being relatively small, they couldn't afford to spend $'s in console beta testing, blame Sony/MS

NVI0U5
19-05-2015, 14:30
For this type of game PC sales normally max out at about 10% of total sales.

If only 10% of the consumers are PC users, why is the PC version the most superior version considering its the console users who have the inferior version the ones who are the money makers in this game? I play XboxOne and we are playing on 900p whilst PS4 1080p and PC is out of the equation? If its us who keep the wheel turning and you rely on console sales to make a coin then why was the game invested in heavily by conducting the most testing on pc being the only testing done on the consoles on dev kits? Would the company not make more $$ by having good feedback from the console users if we are 90% of the market share?

Umer Ahmad
19-05-2015, 14:37
Because the PC version was the most easily "test-able", we players could work directly with SMS. In fact, STEAM/Valve did not even enter the picture until 2014. We were downloading builds directly from SMS machines. Very impressive development/QA model and Ian gets the credit for it. Way ahead of kickstarter

This was not possible for consoles.

TrevorAustin
19-05-2015, 14:41
If only 10% of the consumers are PC users, why is the PC version the most superior version considering its the console users who have the inferior version the ones who are the money makers in this game? I play XboxOne and we are playing on 900p whilst PS4 1080p and PC is out of the equation? If its us who keep the wheel turning and you rely on console sales to make a coin then why was the game invested in heavily by conducting the most testing on pc being the only testing done on the consoles on dev kits? Would the company not make more $$ by having good feedback from the console users if we are 90% of the market share?

Surely you realise the consoles don't have the power of a modern PC, they are like a 2-3 year old PC. Still able to play and display games extremely well, but not up to date. That can't be fixed by software development, or not fully anyway!

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 14:50
I'd be guessing if I said I knew, sorry.

No worries, thanks for the reply and the honesty, it is great to have this sort of information from the 'Horses Mouth' so to speak :)

The very small amount of research I have done suggests that Steam don't put sales figures out and therefore the figures quoted are unlikely to include Steam sales but I am happy to be proved wrong on that.

NVI0U5
19-05-2015, 14:51
Because the PC version was the most easily "test-able", we players could work directly with SMS. In fact, STEAM/Valve did not even enter the picture until 2014. We were downloading builds directly from SMS machines. Very impressive development/QA model and Ian gets the credit for it. Way ahead of kickstarter

This was not possible for consoles.
Yes I understand that, but if these types of games normally only have 10% of marketshare wouldnt it have been wiser to focus more development into making the console versions better than what they released, X1 is a next gen console playing on 900p my 3 year old go pro records in 4k, shouldn't we be looking at how do we bring a wow factor in, how do we secure future customers, I know it all costs $$ and Ill be the first to say I have no idea how much it would be, Im just thinking for console owners having the largest market share we did kinda get ripped

MysterG
19-05-2015, 14:57
The way funding worked a big part of the draw was to be involved with development.
To have the main focus on consoles would not have attracted anywhere near as much interest because people would not be able to get as involved.

If the lead platform was not PC I seriously doubt the game would exist at all.

Added to which all the money in the world would not make the game run at 1080p on XB1 if the console can't do it.

Pamellaaa
19-05-2015, 15:01
Yes I understand that, but if these types of games normally only have 10% of marketshare wouldnt it have been wiser to focus more development into making the console versions better than what they released, X1 is a next gen console playing on 900p my 3 year old go pro records in 4k, shouldn't we be looking at how do we bring a wow factor in, how do we secure future customers, I know it all costs $$ and Ill be the first to say I have no idea how much it would be, Im just thinking for console owners having the largest market share we did kinda get ripped

The issue it the XB1 hardware simply isn't capable of that, the very reason it is at 900P rather than 1080P is because the hardware can't manage good enough framerates, unfortunately there isn't anything that can be done about this by developers.

It is also vastly more difficult to beta test on consoles, I understand that it can only be done with a developer console from Microsoft, only the select few can get these but anyone can but a gaming PC (for roughly the cost of an XB1) and if they are allowed can test a new build of the game every day.

You can have thousands of people testing on PC but only very few will have the option of testing on a console.

AshenShugar
19-05-2015, 15:05
PC isn't like most game that do get developed on console first PC port later. Sims do need the ability to communicate with sim specific peripherals, such as digital dashes, buttkickers, data loggers etc, these are simply not possible with consoles due to the locked down ecosystem.

Nor would that be something easy to just add when it was PC port time.

Boyd12
19-05-2015, 15:06
Well hopefully with all the money coming in from sales and the game being No 1 for 2 weeks in the UK PS4 Chart (Sadly Farming Simulator 2015 will take that spot this week) Namco will give SMS a bigger budget to support this and future games. Maybe SMS will get some PS4 Dev Kits to test

MysterG
19-05-2015, 15:08
Well hopefully with all the money coming in from sales and the game being No 1 for 2 weeks in the UK PS4 Chart (Sadly Farming Simulator 2015 will take that spot this week) Namco will give SMS a bigger budget to support this and future games. Maybe SMS will get some PS4 Dev Kits to test

Namco do not have anything to do with the budget of pCARS. They are a distributor only.

Kingleo
19-05-2015, 15:12
IMO and as Cliche as it sounds, I think There are a good number of WMD members who have forgotten that CARS in Project Cars actually stand for something and forgot how we got here in the first place.

Think back to post-shift 2 release

Invincible
19-05-2015, 15:34
Good ol' "other-forum" time. At first I couldn't even believe that the actual Ian Bell showed up there. I thought of it as a mere hoax...

wraithsrike
19-05-2015, 15:35
Guys please except my apologies on the wording of my original post it was not meant to imply all WMD guy's or all PC guys were / are condescending, I shouldn't have worded it the way I did and I'm not to big to say sorry


But my post really was to say we're all in this together so can we stop with the my dad's bigger than you dad nonsense.

If a person posts a ( to you) silly question just think before you reply maybe it's not so silly to them, and if your playing on a nice high specification PC just remember your game play will be different to those that aren't, so there concern may well be game braking.

Each and every one of of us has now invested both time and money into Project cars so all are intitled to an opinion and the odd suggestion, even if it's not the you hardcore players liking, yes it's trying very hard to be a sim but in the same vain it has to appeal to a wide spectrum of players if it going to survive.

Again apologies never meant to group anyone ( my mistake)

Mad Al
19-05-2015, 15:38
Guys please except my apologies on the wording of my original post it was not meant to imply all WMD guy's or all PC guys were / are condescending, I shouldn't have worded it the way I did and I'm not to big to say sorry


But my post really was to say we're all in this together so can we stop with the my dad's bigger than you dad nonsense.

If a person posts a ( to you) silly question just think before you reply maybe it's not so silly to them, and if your playing on a nice high specification PC just remember your game play will be different to those that aren't, so there concern may well be game braking.

Each and every one of of us has now invested both time and money into Project cars so all are intitled to an opinion and the odd suggestion, even if it's not the you hardcore players liking, yes it's trying very hard to be a sim but in the same vain it has to appeal to a wide spectrum of players if it going to survive.

Again apologies never meant to group anyone ( my mistake)

I'm glad you went with dad is bigger.. last thing we need is a load of people holding up their thumbs...... :)

MisterO
19-05-2015, 16:17
I think DUST2DEATH really found the right differentiation between "old" WMD-Members and new players in another thread:



We have differing perspectives here.

WMD members have had bugs and worse since the beginning, so we are used to it. Another bug is just eh, to a WMD member. However, I do understand your perspective as a new customer of the product.


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26409-Game-development-Documentary-Must-see-for-all-the-negative-posters&p=924667&viewfull=1#post924667

To be honest, I don't know how I'd react as a (for example) Xbox One PCars customer faced with one of the steering bugs or what else. Propably rather angry and I propably wouldn't care at first if some WMD-member told me to "just be patient until it gets fixed" or whatever. I propably would be mad that the fully animated pitstops are missing from the release. But I was with this project since the beginning and I know that the devs are working hard to get (hopefully) everything fixed.

So yes, there might be a "divide", but if both "sides" keep calm and be patient this "divide" will vanish sooner or later.

spinkick
19-05-2015, 16:47
I think its basically us new guys have not seen how things work over the course of development, and it being a 1.0 game, kind of expect things to be "done". These days, such isnt the case in software development. Its annoying, but what can you do? We dont know what to expect for communication, and I guess kind of feel entitled since we made the outright purchase and waited until it was done.

Lars Rosenquist
19-05-2015, 16:58
So the topic can be renamed to 'Forum United' then. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpevZ0-wUYQ