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View Full Version : Please help I'm going bonkers. Why is my driving plagued by this issue?



Spirit X
20-05-2015, 17:05
So I'm bad driver :( But I'm really trying and practicing and reading and studying in an effort to get better and smoother, yet no matter how many hours I put in, I seem to consistently face this weird issue of mid-corner shenanigans. I'm sure it's quite obvious and simple to the experts (or at least I hope so) but to me it's utterly bewildering and something I've not encountered before in a driving game.

This short video will probably illustrate what I'm experiencing better than a long winded explanation. Bear in mind that so far I've encountered this issue with every car but can't figure out how to either tune it out in the settings or improve my driving so it doesn't happen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6NCKCjnrI

As you can see, I ease the throttle on as gently as I can with the controller on that first left-hander but it seems to immediately cause a big weight shift and sends the car away from the apex. I can see no evidence of why this happens in the telemetry so I'm hoping someone else might.

So I started playing around with the limits of the traction to see if I could learn something and I found the cars seem to have this tendency to correct themselves when you lose a bit of grip. Here I am just throwing the back out a little at Silverstone and watch how the car responds:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkIalFYIAdI

Now to me this behaviour seems mighty strange. The car just corrects itself and I can't work out why. Of course in this case it ended up kind of helping me because it pointed the car at the apex but normally it ends up bouncing me away from the apex so I have to have a second stab at the corner, costing me a good 2 or 3 tenths of a second. I thought it could be the LSD Accel Lock or even the TC so dialled them out but it makes no difference.

My final piece of evidence (which I'm not sure is related or not) might give someone a clue as to what I'm doing wrong because I've found that I'm often able to carry more momentum through the corners and generally be smoother when I'm on cold tyres. Here's two laps of Laguna in the RUF CTR3 as I come out of the pits. Although there are clearly some mistakes and some bad gear selections here, it seems that the first lap on cold tyres is much smoother. What I really find interesting though is that I never experience that aforementioned mid-corner issue on cold tyres but in the video you can clearly see that on the second lap, it happens badly two corners before the corkscrew (@ 1:50).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHurrpqkvSc

Please help save my sanity and give me an idea of what I'm doing wrong. Your help will be much appreciated, thanks.

Awong124
20-05-2015, 17:13
It looks like you might be trying to brake and turn at the same time. You can turn and brake at the same time (trail braking), and it can be beneficial, but you need to know how to do it properly or the back end will step out like in your videos. If you only brake in a straight line, then turn only after you're done decelerating it won't happen. Or you can brake while turning, but lift off the brakes proportionately with the amount of steering input you're giving and it should help.

Not sure why it's correcting itself, or not as pronounced on cold tires though.

Sanuck
20-05-2015, 17:18
Hi Spirit
I drive with a wheel but turn off the line guide. looks like your trying to constantly get back to to it, although you entered a corner etc not on it, so your own line ie being where you are should be king.

slow in , fast out, but depends on where you are at the time.
Hope this makes sense.

S

Sampo
20-05-2015, 17:18
I'm no expert, but could you be changing down too aggressively in the first video so engine braking makes the rears lose grip.

Roger Prynne
20-05-2015, 17:23
Yeah turn off the racing line as that is just a rough guide... braking points will be different for different cars.... try and find your own.
Brake in a straight line before the corner and then just let the car settle, you have to find the right speed to take corners.
Also the last vid is from the bonnet view (probably better for you at the moment) which gives you a completely different perspective of the track... try to stick to one view..... and practice, then practice some more and more and more.... you'll get there in the end.

Shnoo
20-05-2015, 17:26
It looks like you might be trying to brake and turn at the same time. You can turn and brake at the same time (trail braking), and it can be beneficial, but you need to know how to do it properly or the back end will step out like in your videos. If you only brake in a straight line, then turn only after you're done decelerating it won't happen. Or you can brake while turning, but lift off the brakes proportionately with the amount of steering input you're giving and it should help.

This should help a lot. You are way to rough with your brakes on turn in.

A tyre can only handle 3 forces braking, accelerating and cornoring. But its only performing at 100% when you just use it for one at a time if you start braking and cornoring you maybe get 50% performance for braking and 50% for cornoring. The tire starts sliding around and you miss your apex. But if you find the right point of cornoring and braking force you are able to hit the apex.

You can try this by simply driving in circles holding the steering at exatly the same point and start adding braking and accelrating until the tire loses grip. if you overdo it you will need much more room for the circle.
Your brakes and throtle are not only for braking and accerlrating they also can help a lot to steer the car if used correctly.

madmax2069
20-05-2015, 17:30
The first video is of you entering the turn too hot (too fast before you start braking), and due to you braking so hard and turning and downshifting you're seeing your wheels locked up (ABS, teaction, stability assist can only help so much), when your experience wheel lock during a turn it will will step out. If you're not using aids then you have to be even more gentle smooth with the brake and trottle and steering input.

The same deal with the second video, going in to hot into the corner, and due to your heavy braking and fast down shifting is causing wheel lock (it was your rear wheels locking up causing the rear end to step out).

Increase your braking distance try to be more gentle with the brake, and try to be more smooth with your steering. When you downshift while braking your rear tires will take less brake preasure to lock up.

You can adjust the sensitivity of your brake and steering down a bit to help you avoide extreme hard braking, and unsmooth steering input.

Bealdor
20-05-2015, 17:47
1. You're taking the corners too fast
2. Brake earlier, it's MUCH more important to go early on the gas than be late on the brakes
3. TURN THE ASSISTS TO "REAL"! You obviously have disabled ABS on the McLaren GT3. This is NOT how this car is meant to be driven.

Spirit X
20-05-2015, 17:53
Aha ok, some interesting stuff, thanks guys.

So first of all, I like to use the driving line while I'm gettting aquainted with a new track but, as you suggest, I'll be sure to turn it off and learn the actual track rather than the green line.

A lot of you mention the turning and braking issue. Seems like I need to be set straight on this because most of my knowledge comes from the lessons that Gran Turismo used to give you. The one that always stuck in my head was about using braking to aid turn in. It basically said that when you brake, the weight goes to the front wheels and you want that happen because the front will turn in better when that weight has transferred onto it. Therefore, if you brake, then let go (unloading the weight) and then turn in, aren't you turning inefficiently?

Also for MR cars I remember learning that using this transfer of weight before turn in was essential because MR cars corner much faster than other types but only if you utilise that wieght transfer and then use the throttle correctly to balance the car during the corner without spinning out. So that's what I've been trying to do with pCARS.

I'm going to do 50 laps using the brake, release brake, turn in method and see if that helps me. One thing at a time, as Shnoo says.

Sampo suggests that I'm changing down too aggresively. Does that mean I should wait and change down a bit later when the revs are lower?

I totally didn't realise that my wheels were locking up though (thanks madmax). How do you know? I couldn't feel it at all. I've already got my sensitivities down at zero so from here I just need to practice getting smoother. I'm definitely going to try some laps braking a bit earlier but first I guess I need to learn to feel when my wheels are locking so I know when I'm overdoing it.

Bealdor - I have my assists on Real and have done since I got the game. I even double checked after I read your post. ABS is on in the McLaren.

Bealdor
20-05-2015, 18:00
A lot of you mention the turning a braking issue. Seems like I need to be set straight on this because most of my knowledge comes from the lessons that Gran Turismo used to give you. The one that always stuck in my head was about using braking to aid turn in. It basically said that when you brake, the weight goes to the front wheels and you want that happen because the front will turn in better when that weight has transferred onto it. Therefore, if you brake, then let go (unloading the weight) and then turn in, aren't you turning inefficiently?

OK seriously: Forget everything Grant Tourismo told you about driving physics.

Tail braking CAN help you turn in but not for the reason you mentioned above. As a rule of thumb: The more stress on the tire through braking, the less turning capability is left.

Spirit X
20-05-2015, 18:11
Ok, got it. I'm an empty vessel. Back to the drawing board.

You know if anyone who knows what they're doing felt so inclined, it would be great to see a lap of Silverstone in the McLaren 12C GT3 done right, with the telemetry display and the driving line on so I can see the inputs and compare it to the way I drive the lap (but yes I am turning that line off, it's just useful for reference sometimes).

Fearless1885
20-05-2015, 18:13
How do you get the pressure overlay on the tyres?

madmax2069
20-05-2015, 18:32
Aha ok, some interesting stuff, thanks guys.

So first of all, I like to use the driving line while I'm gettting aquainted with a new track but, as you suggest, I'll be sure to turn it off and learn the actual track rather than the green line.

A lot of you mention the turning and braking issue. Seems like I need to be set straight on this because most of my knowledge comes from the lessons that Gran Turismo used to give you. The one that always stuck in my head was about using braking to aid turn in. It basically said that when you brake, the weight goes to the front wheels and you want that happen because the front will turn in better when that weight has transferred onto it. Therefore, if you brake, then let go (unloading the weight) and then turn in, aren't you turning inefficiently?

Also for MR cars I remember learning that using this transfer of weight before turn in was essential because MR cars corner much faster than other types but only if you utilise that wieght transfer and then use the throttle correctly to balance the car during the corner without spinning out. So that's what I've been trying to do with pCARS.

I'm going to do 50 laps using the brake, release brake, turn in method and see if that helps me. One thing at a time, as Shnoo says.

Sampo suggests that I'm changing down too aggresively. Does that mean I should wait and change down a bit later when the revs are lower?

I totally didn't realise that my wheels were locking up though (thanks madmax). How do you know? I couldn't feel it at all. I've already got my sensitivities down at zero so from here I just need to practice getting smoother. I'm definitely going to try some laps braking a bit earlier but first I guess I need to learn to feel when my wheels are locking so I know when I'm overdoing it.

Bealdor - I have my assists on Real and have done since I got the game. I even double checked after I read your post. ABS is on in the McLaren.

The reason how I know Is that tires only have so much traction to give, when you're braking you're already putting stress towards the breaking point of losing traction/grip, then with the added stress of turning and downshifting it goes past the breaking point of what the tires can provide traction for.

When you downshift it will use the engine as a brake (when there is no throttle input) thats why people rev match (blip the throttle on every downshift to bring up the engines RPM) when downshifting to limit this effect (on a rear wheel drive car it can cause the rear to step out if you dont rev match, with a front wheel drive ot will cause the front to push).

Downshifting while braking and turning will cause the driving wheels to slow down faster then the non driving wheels (will cause the driving wheels to lock up easier), it might not be a total wheel lock up but ot will still cause them to rotate slower causing added stress towards the breaking point, even the slightest bit of this can cause a negitive effect (rear stepping out, or front pushing).

Roger Prynne
20-05-2015, 18:59
How do you get the pressure overlay on the tyres?

If you mean the telemetry screen then there should be a button mapped to it in the controller menu.....
G25 for example is down on the D Pad and right for different telemetry screens.... or you can map your own.

Fearless1885
20-05-2015, 19:32
If you mean the telemetry screen then there should be a button mapped to it in the controller menu.....
G25 for example is down on the D Pad and right for different telemetry screens.... or you can map your own.

Ah thank you mate will look into it!

Mahjik
20-05-2015, 20:41
So I started playing around with the limits of the traction to see if I could learn something and I found the cars seem to have this tendency to correct themselves when you lose a bit of grip.

When a car slides, it's scrubbing off speed which is why the quickest way around a track isn't drifting. ;) When this happens, the car can scrub off enough speed to regain traction again (depending on a few things like how far over the traction limit you were, how hot the tires already are before scrubbing, etc).

Roger Prynne
20-05-2015, 20:50
Also don't forget that it will self align.

Mahjik
20-05-2015, 21:07
Also don't forget that it will self align.

This will be dictated by the steering direction and momentum of the rear of the car. i.e. it won't always be "self-aligning".