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DUST2DEATH
21-05-2015, 23:31
This seems to be popping up a lot so here is the official word from Doug (man in blue).

Link (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26561-TRACK-LIMITS-LBS-TIMETRIAL-CORNER-CUTTING-CHEATING&p=929126&viewfull=1#post929126)

I've tried this here locally with our latest in-house build and Code. RUF RGT8 GT3 Monza. I get a cut track through the second chicane everytime. We did some work on the cut track code and sensitivity around release, but It missed the D1P. You'll get it in a future patch. Not sure which one.

Link (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26561-TRACK-LIMITS-LBS-TIMETRIAL-CORNER-CUTTING-CHEATING&p=931098&viewfull=1#post931098)

The change I'm talking about is game wide and will affect the detection at every track, so hopefully the bulk of the bad ones will just go away. So its fine to report what you want now, but after the patch that includes this (again I don't know which one), is when it would be more important.

NVI0U5
22-05-2015, 00:25
cant wait, Im just relaxing until its brought out them Ill go LBs competitively

Rift Racer
22-05-2015, 01:12
cant wait, Im just relaxing until its brought out them Ill go LBs competitively

Can't wait? You were the one encouraging people to cut the track to gain time if they weren't competitive.

DUST2DEATH
22-05-2015, 01:15
Please dont start in this thread. Its intended to bring out the posts that are buried in an 8 page thread for people to see easily.

David Semperger
22-05-2015, 10:41
This is great to hear. Thanks for the heads-up D2D.

Rift Racer
22-05-2015, 18:57
Not quick enough, that's anther SMS-R Event ruined. Fuckin pointless.

David Semperger
22-05-2015, 19:00
Not quick enough, that's anther SMS-R Event ruined. Fuckin pointless.

At least the event at Silverstone is fine. People can keep to that if they don't want to compete by cutting as much as allowed.

Rift Racer
22-05-2015, 19:08
At least the event at Silverstone is fine. People can keep to that if they don't want to compete by cutting as much as allowed.

And what about people who actually wanted to be part of the championship? Not a chance of that happening now, since 2 or 3 of the 4 events so far have been rife with cheaters cutting.

David Semperger
22-05-2015, 20:03
And what about people who actually wanted to be part of the championship?

People that want to be a part of the championship should accept its current rules until the track limit detection is improved. At this point in time if you refrain from cutting that's your choice. Personally I don't do it until somebody starts beating my theoretically best, clean lap, because I'm not a huge fan of it either. But that's racing, rules won't always be to your liking. That doesn't mean that you should just quit. Voice your opinion, report issues, but on the track use the fastest line available to you, like competitors do. No real series would exist today if drivers or teams would leave as soon as they don't like the rules. Cut detection issues like this may be unique to sims, but I don't see any reason to treat them differently than parts of real world regulations I don't like.

Rift Racer
22-05-2015, 20:05
People that want to be a part of the championship should accept its current rules until the track limit detection is improved. At this point in time if you refrain from cutting that's your choice. Personally I don't do it until somebody starts beating my theoretically best, clean lap, because I'm not a huge fan of it either. But that's racing, rules won't always be to your liking. That doesn't mean that you should just quit. Voice your opinion, report issues, but on the track use the fastest line available to you. No real series would exist today if drivers or teams would leave as soon as they don't like the rules.

You talk like it's actually meant to be this way. It's not allowed, ITS BROKEN! It's a massive bug / oversight, isn't pCARS meant to be a simulation? It's not like the rules of racing have changed.

David Semperger
22-05-2015, 20:16
You talk like it's actually meant to be this way.

I know it's not. That however doesn't change the fact that for now it is this way. However, to me racing is going around a track in the shortest amount of time possible and allowed. If to you it means something different I respect that, but then you have to accept that you'll be at a disadvantage.


It's not allowed, ITS BROKEN! It's a massive bug / oversight, isn't pCARS meant to be a simulation?

It is, but like all software it won't ever be perfect. If it's possible to drive a car faster in a sim than in real life because of inaccuracies in the physics will you slow down, even if the physics is meant to be accurate?


It's not like the rules of racing have changed.

The rules of racing change all the time. Sims also have rules of their own. During overtakes we don't enforce the "only one direction change" rule for the driver ahead like F1 does, just to mention one example.

All that said let me be clear, I want the track limit detection changed to better reflect real rules.

FA RACING 01
22-05-2015, 20:36
Good to hear DUST. Thanks

Rift Racer
22-05-2015, 20:47
The rules of racing change all the time. Sims also have rules of their own. During overtakes we don't enforce the "only one direction change" rule for the driver ahead like F1 does, just to mention one example.

Sorry, I should have been more clear; ofcourse racing rules change all the time.

However it's not like the rules of track limits change. Sure tracks change, and different track limits / chicanes are introduced / changed, but it's pretty much always, if you go over the white lines with your full car (atleast), your laptime won't be counted, and that's in all types of competitive time trial / hotlap / qualifying racing.



It is, but like all software it won't ever be perfect.

Why do you think this? Surely it's the easiest thing to program in the world, define the track limits in each track then a simple statement:

if playercar > track limits
{
laptime = invalid
}

LADY GEMMA JANE
22-05-2015, 20:48
Great news

David Semperger
22-05-2015, 21:13
Why do you think this?

I was talking about inaccuracies in general, that's why I also mentioned inaccuracies in physics, which quite possibly allow us to lap with our cars faster than their real counterpart in some cases, even if we disregard the many additional variable affecting us in the real world. In other words, I won't keep myself to rules that aren't in effect in our sim. I may not like our current rules about track limits, regardless of whether they are intentional or not, but they are the only ones we have, so they are the only ones I care about when I'm driving.

Rift Racer
23-05-2015, 00:07
I was talking about inaccuracies in general, that's why I also mentioned inaccuracies in physics, which quite possibly allow us to lap with our cars faster than their real counterpart in some cases, even if we disregard the many additional variable affecting us in the real world. In other words, I won't keep myself to rules that aren't in effect in our sim. I may not like our current rules about track limits, regardless of whether they are intentional or not, but they are the only ones we have, so they are the only ones I care about when I'm driving.

That's fine I suppose, but I won't be attempting to learn all the 'new pCARS lines' in all the tracks, attempting to cut every corner and see if my lap is invalidated or not, doesn't really sound like racing / driving to me. Especially when I already know these tracks and their track limits.

JessicaWalter
23-05-2015, 00:16
^^ agreed. if i slip off-track in TT and the game doesn't catch it, but i do, ill go off track on purpose to invalidate it.

Rift Racer
23-05-2015, 02:35
^^ agreed. if i slip off-track in TT and the game doesn't catch it, but i do, ill go off track on purpose to invalidate it.

Lol, I done that about 10 times when doing the Monaco event, oops I cut that chicane, better slow down / restart so as not to set a fast time with a cut.

Kobewap
24-05-2015, 18:35
Will it erase "cheated" times on time trial mode ?

(sorry for my english)

ibby
24-05-2015, 22:03
Apparently one can also make a big cut in Silverstone too in Sector 3.

1. Schumi S3 34:8
7. Silly_Goose S3 33:3

Haven't checked the ghost yet but that's a new one for me.

Worm
24-05-2015, 22:11
That's fine I suppose, but I won't be attempting to learn all the 'new pCARS lines' in all the tracks, attempting to cut every corner and see if my lap is invalidated or not, doesn't really sound like racing / driving to me. Especially when I already know these tracks and their track limits.

It's just another WMD member making excuses and defending something that should have been addressed pre-release. Especially with prizes on the line from the games release.

Fabian Baumgarten
24-05-2015, 22:16
Apparently one can also make a big cut in Silverstone too in Sector 3.

1. Schumi S3 34:8
7. Silly_Goose S3 33:3

Haven't checked the ghost yet but that's a new one for me.

mhm.. thats a new one for me, too. it has to be one of the last two corners, i think...there are only 3 corners in the last sector, right?

David Semperger
24-05-2015, 23:06
Apparently one can also make a big cut in Silverstone too in Sector 3.

1. Schumi S3 34:8
7. Silly_Goose S3 33:3

Haven't checked the ghost yet but that's a new one for me.

It's probably the entry into the chicane. Cutting Stowe isn't beneficial because it's a long corner and there's lots of grass that you'd have to go through on the inside. The exit of the chicane can be slightly cut, but that doesn't net you 1.5 second. Cutting the last right turn that leads to the finish wouldn't be beneficial either. While you can go fairly wide there, I don't think that helps much. All of that leaves the chicane entry as the primary suspect.

David Semperger
25-05-2015, 09:40
As it turns out you can cut everything after Stowe, by entering the pits and finishing your lap there. This is up there with the trick at Monaco, whereby you can hug the wall through Massenet. :)

Fabian Baumgarten
25-05-2015, 11:07
As it turns out you can cut everything after Stowe, by entering the pits and finishing your lap there. This is up there with the trick at Monaco, whereby you can hug the wall through Massenet. :)

WTF!!!!!!!??????
OMG things are really getting strange here ...
i didn't know that...

David Semperger
25-05-2015, 12:52
I must say Fabian, cuts or no cuts, you're a damn tough opponent. :)

Joni Varis
25-05-2015, 12:54
Will be nice to compete after cut detection is fixed.

sof
25-05-2015, 13:10
As it turns out you can cut everything after Stowe, by entering the pits and finishing your lap there. This is up there with the trick at Monaco, whereby you can hug the wall through Massenet. :)

Hi does the lap recorded from these guys will be deleted ? it seems we can't beat them on a regular way

sof
25-05-2015, 14:07
not from me but interesting ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS-IGYlEAZI

ibby
25-05-2015, 19:48
https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/602922643344359424

"SMS-R competitors cutting corners & exploiting wall-riding will not be tolerated and their ghosts will be analysed before point allocation"

Finally some good news on this front. :)

DUST2DEATH
25-05-2015, 21:39
https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/602922643344359424

"SMS-R competitors cutting corners & exploiting wall-riding will not be tolerated and their ghosts will be analysed before point allocation"

Finally some good news on this front. :)

not really. Implies there is no wipe coming. I personally would prefer they wipe all the boards entirely and everyone re-runs using the new track limits.

It should never have got this far. I know I reported that you can wall bounce/ride more than once over the years. It all got brushed off by the 'racers' cause 'accidents' and 'run off areas'. At least that's how it feels.

Worm
25-05-2015, 21:47
not really. Implies there is no wipe coming. I personally would prefer they wipe all the boards entirely and everyone re-runs using the new track limits.

It should never have got this far. I know I reported that you can wall bounce/ride more than once over the years. It all got brushed off by the 'racers' cause 'accidents' and 'run off areas'. At least that's how it feels.

Well this isn't fair at all to those that did. I haven't ran the tracks but this is as nearsighted as it gets. Someone who has cut thinking that was how they had to get into the prizes and top times considering it was everywhere now CAN'T beat their own ghosts or times to run a valid lap.

This isn't an exploit or a glitch, this is something you've designed and set within the game. This is awful, I'm glad it's being looked into but the blowback from this is going to be pretty bad. Eveyrone who has cut and spent time playing the game is now going to put it down and not come back, the rest of us who haven't have no chance of beating any times or knowing what a goal to beat is or isn't. This wasn't thought through at all.

ibby
25-05-2015, 21:55
Well this isn't fair at all to those that did. I haven't ran the tracks but this is as nearsighted as it gets. Someone who has cut thinking that was how they had to get into the prizes and top times considering it was everywhere now CAN'T beat their own ghosts or times to run a valid lap.

This isn't an exploit or a glitch, this is something you've designed and set within the game. This is awful, I'm glad it's being looked into but the blowback from this is going to be pretty bad. Eveyrone who has cut and spent time playing the game is now going to put it down and not come back, the rest of us who haven't have no chance of beating any times or knowing what a goal to beat is or isn't. This wasn't thought through at all.

Blowback from people cutting the track severely / going into the pits to get 3 seconds faster times / wallriders ?
That would be welcome. Makes it easier to see which times to ignore. =)

DUST2DEATH
25-05-2015, 22:07
Blowback from people cutting the track severely / going into the pits to get 3 seconds faster times / wallriders ?
That would be welcome. Makes it easier to see which times to ignore. =)

Im sorry. That is the wrong perspective to have.

The leaderboards should never be about 'which times to ignore'. Everytime on the board should be valid to remain competitive to all players.
The blowback that worm refers to is correct.

If they dont wipe the times, those players that 'did it because everyone else was' has no ability to put up a valid time.
If they dont wipe the times, those players that never cut the track can not beat the times that were set doing so.

It doesnt matter if you are #2, #150, #500 or #2000, you should always be at the correct position and if #2 is only #2 because someone in #1 cut, then that isnt fair.. All that achieves is making people go 'why bother?'.

I like to hotlap but Im currently in the 'why bother' camp. To me, and Im sure others, this is a completely game breaking showstopper.

ibby
25-05-2015, 22:14
Im sorry. That is the wrong perspective to have.

The leaderboards should never be about 'which times to ignore'. Everytime on the board should be valid to remain competitive to all players.
The blowback that worm refers to is correct.

If they dont wipe the times, those players that 'did it because everyone else was' has no ability to put up a valid time.
If they dont wipe the times, those players that never cut the track can not beat the times that were set doing so.

It doesnt matter if you are #2, #150, #500 or #2000, you should always be at the correct position and if #2 is only #2 because someone in #1 cut, then that isnt fair.. All that achieves is making people go 'why bother?'.

I like to hotlap but Im currently in the 'why bother' camp. To me, and Im sure others, this is a completely game breaking showstopper.

Oh of course I'd like them to delete false times. Only makes sense as soon as the trackcuts are fixed in game though.
Maybe they'll run the first 2 events again during the 3rd one ?

Worm
25-05-2015, 22:24
Blowback from people cutting the track severely / going into the pits to get 3 seconds faster times / wallriders ?
That would be welcome. Makes it easier to see which times to ignore. =)

Maybe they didn't intend to wall ride or cut a corner. Is that likely? No, but it is plausible.

You also have people that have seemingly run valid times having times invalidated and their ghost on that track held hostage because SMS doesn't want to go to the trouble of wiping times? This is SMS's screw up, this isn't like someone went and found a mesh in a map and exploited it to get out. This is something that was found within minutes of the games release and surely was discovered before it came out. That's not on the users, that's on the developers.

I would 100% understand if this was a bug exploit where someone was getting 500hp on a Clio or unlimited grip somehow, that should be invalidated but this is something else entirely.

David Semperger
25-05-2015, 23:35
https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/602922643344359424

"SMS-R competitors cutting corners & exploiting wall-riding will not be tolerated and their ghosts will be analysed before point allocation"

Finally some good news on this front. :)

It's a start, but ideally it shouldn't be possible to cut in the first place, so the better solution would be the cut detection fix mentioned in the OP. Also, ghosts from the first two rounds should be analyzed as well and points should be taken from people who cut corners. There are more than a few on the current championship leaderboard who did, including me.

Joni Varis
26-05-2015, 03:52
Ideally all the events should be rerun completely after cut detection is fixed, but cant see that happening. Im sure some good drivers who has same no cutting mentality as myself skipped it alltogether, i just did the FA events because actually enjoyed driving it, even that i knew very well would have no change to compete against cuts.

About the Azure event. It will be quite silly if this really happens that cutted times will be dropped, dont think there is any lap on top 10 without cuts, not many laps even in top 20.

madmax2069
26-05-2015, 04:02
Maybe they didn't intend to wall ride or cut a corner. Is that likely? No, but it is plausible.

You also have people that have seemingly run valid times having times invalidated and their ghost on that track held hostage because SMS doesn't want to go to the trouble of wiping times? This is SMS's screw up, this isn't like someone went and found a mesh in a map and exploited it to get out. This is something that was found within minutes of the games release and surely was discovered before it came out. That's not on the users, that's on the developers.

I would 100% understand if this was a bug exploit where someone was getting 500hp on a Clio or unlimited grip somehow, that should be invalidated but this is something else entirely.

Doesn't matter if they didn't intend to ride the wall or cut a corner, the fact remains that they did ride the wall or cut the corner, and any lap or time doing such things should be null and void period.

And them being able to do this without their time being voided is a issue they're exploiting, be it by a bug or a simple oversight by the devs.

LotusTeam
26-05-2015, 04:08
among the track cutting issues, Zolder 1st and 2nd chicanes are masterpieces of "secs earning path"....!

Please get it fixed SMS, I beg you....

NVI0U5
26-05-2015, 05:47
Ideally all the events should be rerun completely after cut detection is fixed, but cant see that happening. Im sure some good drivers who has same no cutting mentality as myself skipped it alltogether, i just did the FA events because actually enjoyed driving it, even that i knew very well would have no change to compete against cuts.

About the Azure event. It will be quite silly if this really happens that cutted times will be dropped, dont think there is any lap on top 10 without cuts, not many laps even in top 20.
I dont know if they can rerun the events, because the end of the rounds is in January 2016 soon its going to be too far in too late

DUST2DEATH
26-05-2015, 07:11
I dont know if they can rerun the events, because the end of the rounds is in January 2016 soon its going to be too far in too late

shift everything back.

You either fix it quick, or you leave it in the mess it is and everyone stops caring in 3,2,1....

NVI0U5
26-05-2015, 10:12
shift everything back.

You either fix it quick, or you leave it in the mess it is and everyone stops caring in 3,2,1....

100% its in the developers hands do they want it fixed or do they enjoy the caos?

Worm
26-05-2015, 11:54
Doesn't matter if they didn't intend to ride the wall or cut a corner, the fact remains that they did ride the wall or cut the corner, and any lap or time doing such things should be null and void period.

And them being able to do this without their time being voided is a issue they're exploiting, be it by a bug or a simple oversight by the devs.

You've completely missed the point. The times, all of them, should be wiped from the board.....not just invalidated and left there. Who wants to run a #1 that shows 13th on the leaderboard?

Ripgroove
26-05-2015, 12:14
The only way to do this properly is to wipe the LB's after the patch takes place.

GMDLONDON
26-05-2015, 12:48
How come people can get 3sec faster time going thru pit line? IS THIS REAL??

hanschuit
26-05-2015, 13:14
The only way to do this properly is to wipe the LB's after the patch takes place.

Yes they just have to do that otherwise the whole championship is fucked and not fair.

Silverstone round 3 you could end your lap via pit lane and be couple seconds faster than normal way.

RESET THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fabian Baumgarten
26-05-2015, 15:17
as mentioned by many people here: please reset the events! everything else will be unfair to either the guys who cutted, or the guys who didn't cut.
fairest solution for everyone is a complete restart!

if my times from both competitions get wiped out, only because i used everything what it takes to get in front and is allowed by the game(!!!) i would be really mad. you just can not run this events and decide AFTERWARDS what you will do with those entrys. you may have made this clear before these events started, so everybody knows whats going on.

please, can a dev comment on this and make clear whats going on now?
is there a chance to reset an restart EVERYTHING?

Joni Varis
26-05-2015, 15:22
If my memory doesnt play tricks, didnt i say back in the barcelona event that the cutting will bite you back sooner or later :p

Just joking.

I really think it would be best just restart whole championship, but only once the cut detection is proberly fixed.

elandro
26-05-2015, 15:30
It is unfair that times are canceled without warning, there are many hours of training.En the next event would be nice but this unannounced before doing is not right.

TRC GeorgiaDawg
26-05-2015, 15:40
this is a completely game breaking showstopper.

It's not a showstopper!!!!

No that's not a quip about the infamous words of another developer of a formerly great racing game when they were trying to sweep LB ruining glitches under the rug. It's the truth. The cutting stuff is not a showstopper, it's a showneverstarter.

Having been through this rodeo since the days of PGR2 I come into every racing game expecting LB glitches and a eventual wipe. Glad to see SMS is on the cutting thing and hopefully will fix it. But without a wipe to rid the board of all glitched times SMS might as well not even fix it at all. The boards will be useless for those of us who want to compete for laptimes. Which means the real show will never actually start.

I love the game and am currently just running some banker laps and getting a feel for the cars and some new tracks. Hopefully SMS does the right thing and I can really sink my teeth into this game and hotlap like mad. Haven't wanted to hotlap a game as much since FM2.

Fix the penalty system and track boundary problems then full wipe. It's the only way to go.

GMDLONDON
26-05-2015, 16:03
we can talk and talk about cutting corners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSEKoaAYe0Q

GMDLONDON
26-05-2015, 18:43
championship SMS what is this ?? is this a JOKE? I personally dont understand way people taking this so seriously if ps4 or x1 is in the same pack with PC as the choice in hardware and hardware are so different. Now they telling on twiter they will not tolerate corner cuts wall rides bla bla bla , some people will cut some people will hit a walls and some people will try to find bugs in game, and if any of you belive this is not nice not fer then dont blame them as they are trying to play, but when you see one of the fastest guy BAM Anto uploading on two formats lap times then how we should comment this, is he so desperate to beat Ti-tech85 ?? or is he so idiot to play on two formats , whay?? you canot race in two cars at the same time , but I dont talk about people like him just want to ask PCARS whay the are letting this to happen? but when you see they cant write correctly users names, like Ti-tech86 in round 1 and Ti-tech85 in round 2
204594204595

David Semperger
26-05-2015, 19:11
I personally dont understand way people taking this so seriously if ps4 or x1 is in the same pack with PC as the choice in hardware and hardware are so different.

The game and physics are the same on all platforms, so lap times are comparable. Therefore it makes perfect sense that everyone competes in the same championship.


when you see one of the fastest guy BAM Anto uploading on two formats lap times then how we should comment this

You don't have to worry about this: https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/599656726388944896

GMDLONDON
26-05-2015, 20:13
The game and physics are the same on all platforms, so lap times are comparable. Therefore it makes perfect sense that everyone competes in the same championship.



You don't have to worry about this: https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/599656726388944896

David you dont have to comment on me, especially when you saying something like [ so lap times are comparable]
for me is clear what a see and I see that the web master is an idiot be publishing scores like this and the guy trying to be the best on both platforms or combine , pcars so far cant ban any time as fares i know whatever they saying on twiter, its simple like this, when you see woman in the bed with other man you are gone thrust her and keep her at home are you ?? pcars just did something like this , if you dont know how to run tournament then dont run, so far so good grate game but they didn't learn much , i spend money to play but if there is tournament it is the developer duty to give all players equal condition , i lost thrustmaster wheel on ps4 in last day, and i could not see the replay of the guy in fron of me, fack that thats how the game is done, till next thrustmaster gear TT if they dont make fix update it gone be the same just to deliver the time, off course I do cut corners if the game let me do so, but this is like with a woman if she give YOU ;-) dont coment me if you pcars developer or priest, Regards

Worm
26-05-2015, 21:13
David you dont have to comment on me, especially when you saying something like [ so lap times are comparable]
for me is clear what a see and I see that the web master is an idiot be publishing scores like this and the guy trying to be the best on both platforms or combine , pcars so far cant ban any time as fares i know whatever they saying on twiter, its simple like this, when you see woman in the bed with other man you are gone thrust her and keep her at home are you ?? pcars just did something like this , if you dont know how to run tournament then dont run, so far so good grate game but they didn't learn much , i spend money to play but if there is tournament it is the developer duty to give all players equal condition , i lost thrustmaster wheel on ps4 in last day, and i could not see the replay of the guy in fron of me, fack that thats how the game is done, till next thrustmaster gear TT if they dont make fix update it gone be the same just to deliver the time, off course I do cut corners if the game let me do so, but this is like with a woman if she give YOU ;-) dont coment me if you pcars developer or priest, Regards

http://replygif.net/i/311.gif

GMDLONDON
26-05-2015, 22:51
http://replygif.net/i/311.gif

How can I help you?

ibby
26-05-2015, 23:47
http://replygif.net/i/311.gif

What's not to understand ?
He lost the thrust. In the webmaster. He lost the Thrust...master. And he lost thrust in his woman.
And off course he cuts corners. He drives off course.
If only women would give us like HIM. ;-)

I may comment since I'm no dev nor priest

Worm
26-05-2015, 23:58
What's not to understand ?
He lost the thrust. In the webmaster. He lost the Thrust...master. And he lost thrust in his woman.
And off course he cuts corners. He drives off course.
If only women would give us like HIM. ;-)

I may comment since I'm no dev nor priest

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8gkwsU4DQ1rziwwco1_500.gif

Westbeef
27-05-2015, 13:53
David you dont have to comment on me, especially when you saying something like [ so lap times are comparable]
for me is clear what a see and I see that the web master is an idiot be publishing scores like this and the guy trying to be the best on both platforms or combine , pcars so far cant ban any time as fares i know whatever they saying on twiter, its simple like this, when you see woman in the bed with other man you are gone thrust her and keep her at home are you ?? pcars just did something like this , if you dont know how to run tournament then dont run, so far so good grate game but they didn't learn much , i spend money to play but if there is tournament it is the developer duty to give all players equal condition , i lost thrustmaster wheel on ps4 in last day, and i could not see the replay of the guy in fron of me, fack that thats how the game is done, till next thrustmaster gear TT if they dont make fix update it gone be the same just to deliver the time, off course I do cut corners if the game let me do so, but this is like with a woman if she give YOU ;-) dont coment me if you pcars developer or priest, Regards

I honestly thought English wasn't your native language until I saw you live in London. Maybe it's still not your native language, but I don't understand anything you just wrote.

ibby
27-05-2015, 16:12
https://twitter.com/projectcarsgame/status/603564425442926594
http://www.projectcarsgame.com/esports.html

I don't think any of the times were taken out. Not even the pitlane cut etc.

"Whenever possible, ghosts are reviewed to spot the most egregious instances of these and times are ignored accordingly. It's our aim to continue working with the community to keep on top of this."

Then why post any results til those times are actually reviewed ?

Joni Varis
27-05-2015, 17:07
I guess they decided to drop the non cutted times instead LMAO, last time checked i was 12th in event, but cant see my name on the results :)

Edit: Oh i see, on consoles there was even better cutters than on pc.

This whole "championship" is BAD joke at best. As ibby i really dont get it, if the cutted times are not allowed/going to be removed, why on earth even release the results where all top 20 example at Azure event needs to be wiped off afterwards :confused:

ibby
27-05-2015, 17:38
It is very confusing to me. Saying you take out all the times with heavy cuts then posting a list of points where 95% of the times ARE with heavy cuts.
Maybe they don't know how widespread this is ? Nearly none of those guys at the top would be even on the list if you really take out heavily cut times.

Why even ask BAM Anto wether it's ok to only use one of his multiple system times when his times aren't real anyway.
He actually stopped cutting for the Silverstone event once he read the tweet i think ( at least last time i looked at the s3 times ) but in Monaco he still cut everywhere like all on the top.

Also is there any way we can help weed out the times ?
I guess it's easier for the devs though since they likely can use ctrl+f still and follow the ghosts like this.

David Semperger
27-05-2015, 17:49
This is getting really confusing. First we are being told that times that were achieved with cuts will be ignored, but they clearly weren't (mines weren't at least). Now after the points were tallied we once again are told that "going forward, any times achieved using tactics that would have incurred a penalty or flag in real-life will be ignored".

So, does this mean that we got another free pass, since the events were already under way when the previous warning was issued, but this was the last time? We really need a clarification because we can't race with nebulous track limits. I think I'll start another thread in the general discussion forums and ask about this. Maybe we'll get an answer there.

GMDLONDON
27-05-2015, 17:50
the game is very good , works fine on ps4 to me, but they mess up the championship and if my lap is invalid then they mess up the thrustmaster gear TT to. personally I know this is not the correct race line but rules are made by game. They have no any right to delete any time has bean done as they began the champ.. and TT without any RULES. today they change the points so Ti-tech85 did cut or hit walls ? or he give up the mess?
204790


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbAbNKW4QaE

GMDLONDON
27-05-2015, 18:02
I honestly thought English wasn't your native language until I saw you live in London. Maybe it's still not your native language, but I don't understand anything you just wrote.

Because is not for you to understand, but you right english is not my prime language in fact is 4th language,
But even my best friend did read twice and very slowly after that he did understand my points, but he know me for more the 35 year, Im not gone explain to you point by point because any way you cant change the game, and pcars do read posts on forum , not just my one but maybe my one to and they know what to do to be fair for ALL, and you take as it is

saidur9
27-05-2015, 20:44
This was said during the last two events:

"SMS-R competitors cutting corners & exploiting wall-riding will not be tolerated and their ghosts will be analysed before point allocation"

Now this is being said:

"UPDATE 27TH MAY - Times achieved through tactics that would have incurred a penalty in real life will henceforth be ignored. Additionally, further improvements to the Track Cutting system are currently in progress with the aim of nullifying the ability to shortcut chicanes and 'wall-ride' around armco."

So whoever followed the advice just gets done over in the championship, don't see how that is fair. Would be much better if they rerun the events once detection has been fixed. Something labelled as eSports, if I had taken advantage of other things without driving any better, I could potentially be right up there in the championship, instead I'm nowhere due to following official guidelines.

DUST2DEATH
27-05-2015, 20:48
this is beyond belief.

Congrats SMS, you just done killed it all, this isnt a fair competition, This is a joke.

Wiping the boards IS the only answer. All of them. Restart the competition fairly!!!

Charles Gillen
27-05-2015, 21:47
Here's the real deal... Everyone knows where the track is. Any track. Bottom line is, if you went off track to have a better lap, you cheated. Dont matter if everyone is rationalizing that others did it, Dont matter if you're a WMD member or a professional race car driver or anyone else. You cheated, plain and simple. So coming here and saying those lap times should not be wiped...You honestly dont have a leg to stand on.

I spent three days doing laps at Silverstone in that big heavy boat and could'nt for the life of me figure out how I was a full 7 seconds behind. I dont claim to be a great racer but 7 seconds? Turns out it was actually about 2 seconds. Not as bad as I thought.

Their used to be a little triangle symbol that popped up next to your name when you left the track during a lap. If you got one of those your lap would be counted
behind all other laps that did'nt have one. So even if you were 7 seconds faster than everyone else your lap counted below the slowest legitimate lap ran.

The fix here is simple. Notate any lap thats cut with a sign and have it count lower than any lap without it. But I also agree, the leaderboards definately need to be wiped clean.

Charles

Mr_Velocity1577
27-05-2015, 22:42
Laguna Seca has a point which gives you 1200+sec of penalty when you come out of the pits and stay in the lane round turn 1 and after pitting twice I was able to bypass it but the notification was still on my screen.

PTG Claret
31-05-2015, 21:43
/https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/488/18132785978_634fd032a5.jpg

Can anyone elaborate why community events are still going ahead whilst things like this top the lbs? This guy is the #1 wheel user on the board for the German Touring Car Legend Celebration on xbox, and clearly prefers to drive next to the track, rather than on it.

**hint** the track is waaay over to the right.

OutThereAndBack
01-06-2015, 14:16
When everything gets fixed i vote for a leader board reset.

Mancunain
01-06-2015, 15:33
Well this isn't fair at all to those that did. I haven't ran the tracks but this is as nearsighted as it gets. Someone who has cut thinking that was how they had to get into the prizes and top times considering it was everywhere now CAN'T beat their own ghosts or times to run a valid lap.

This isn't an exploit or a glitch, this is something you've designed and set within the game. This is awful, I'm glad it's being looked into but the blowback from this is going to be pretty bad. Eveyrone who has cut and spent time playing the game is now going to put it down and not come back, the rest of us who haven't have no chance of beating any times or knowing what a goal to beat is or isn't. This wasn't thought through at all.

regarding your quote ive highlighted.... and your point is ?

tbh, most racers here dont want their sort anyway, whose whole intention on that lap was cut everything and think.. 'im gonna cheat my way to number one.. yeeeaaaaaagghghhhh.. look at how good i am'

Ye right mate :P
let them sulk back to their (probably cracked) games and break out their encyclopedia of gamecheat codes to walk their way thro their other games as if they can rule the world with their 'mighty skills', just like taking candy from a baby..
well, thats exactly the type of cowardly, deceitful people they are.. and probably some of the same people who ram others off at bends :)

The 2 'crimes' go hand in hand for me.. same type of people in my mind.. so ye, let them go, they will not be missed..
and their donations to the project has been a great help im sure:)

Mancunain
01-06-2015, 16:02
They have no any right to delete any time has bean done as they began the champ.
204790


I think you'll find they have rights to do what they please with their software..
if something displeases the majority, then any game company would alter things.. if they lose a few of the minority over it then so be it, the game will survive & grow way beyond the smoke from this and those who ran away cos they cant cheat anymore will not be missed..

The so called 'genuine' ones who did it 'just bcos everyone else was' will probably be more forgiving after a short while if all times get wiped, realising if they didnt see the cheat on utube, or followed the cheating ghosts.. then they prob wouldnt have done it anyway..
the more who did it just leaves a bigger job for admin to sort out.. which will ultimately.. well, probably lead to leaderboard wipe..
can you really see a few staff sitting watching 100's & 100;s of video clips for weeks ? as even an 'average' time on those boards may have the odd corner cut in somewhere..
Where can they draw the line ?
Fairest way, but prob most painful overall will be wipe & start again.. the games not been out too long, so the error will be forgotten eventually..

they've made us a good game, i cant see why loads of people are kicking & screaming all the time.. especially if they are in the wrong anyway.. and they are.. cutting corners on a race circuit breaks rules.. simple :P so what if the game missing a few boundaries, that can be fixed easily now they are highlighted..
but now the cheaters feel cheated.. lol... tough :P i have no sympathy, sorry

o Mike V o
01-06-2015, 22:41
Wipe the leaderboards, IIRC Turn 10 did that back in the 360 days.

FA RACING 01
02-06-2015, 05:12
Why not let the community vote on clearing those leaderboards. Majority rules and no fingers can be pointed to any individual or SMS whatever the outcome.

TheLethalDose
02-06-2015, 07:19
I really hope they don't wipe the Monza GP leaderboards for formula A, can't cut like you can with the slower classes.

Ripgroove
02-06-2015, 07:26
IMO the boards need wiping, if you are capable of a fast clean lap then a board wipe shouldn't bother you because you can just go set another time. Personally I was #1 on Catanlunya National & GP with the Rookie by doing clean laps, then got beaten by people cutting the last chicane, so in order to stay at the top of the leaderboards I had to also cut the last chicane! BUT I know I'm capable of being the fastest if everyone ran clean laps so pesonally I'd be happy to see the times wiped and go set a clean fast time again.

Ripgroove
02-06-2015, 07:29
It's absolute madness to not wipe the times after any track fixes, imagine all the top times being that of corner cutters, no one would ever be able to beat them, they would forever be sat at the top of the leaderboards because it would be absolutely impossible to beat them. The fact that anyone would want these times to remain there just baffles me.

Gordon
02-06-2015, 09:16
It's absolute madness to not wipe the times after any track fixes, imagine all the top times being that of corner cutters, no one would ever be able to beat them, they would forever be sat at the top of the leaderboards because it would be absolutely impossible to beat them. The fact that anyone would want these times to remain there just baffles me.

Just adding my thoughts to this - for the people who have put in a big effort to get to the top ( or close to it, or even in the top 1000 ), they get to do it all over again! = twice the fun! yes?

And if not FUN, why the heck do it in the first place?

Ripgroove
02-06-2015, 09:29
I believe that if you are capable of setting a fast time then you should have no problem repeating it, it's not like they are wiping personal car setups so load the setup, run some laps and BAM, your back on the leaderboard. I don't really see a problem TBH. It's either that or forever have the top times set in stone by corner cutters that can never be beaten.

BDR Daz
02-06-2015, 17:30
Why not let the community vote on clearing those leaderboards. Majority rules and no fingers can be pointed to any individual or SMS whatever the outcome.

Because how are you going to get everyone to vote ? only a small percentage are on here

o Mike V o
02-06-2015, 20:52
Why not let the community vote on clearing those leaderboards. Majority rules and no fingers can be pointed to any individual or SMS whatever the outcome.

No thanks, the exploiters should have known better now they should pay the price. As if they would actually think SMS would be cool with the current track limits...this isn't forza horizon.

Kulch
03-06-2015, 06:14
it needs to be reset. nobody competes with cheats in the real world and this will rot a slow death if its not fixed.
the sooner its fixed, the sooner everyones back on track and out of the pitts

FA RACING 01
03-06-2015, 06:52
No thanks, the exploiters should have known better now they should pay the price. As if they would actually think SMS would be cool with the current track limits...this isn't forza horizon.

I am, just like you against the cutting and pro clearing the LB's and for that reason stays away from the Community events until it's been sorted out. I'm also convinced that the cutting is wrong, but just as convinced are those that are cutting that they just followed the rules and game limits as it applied at that stage, hence not exploiting anything. So the one deciding which side is right cannot use the then existing rules of the game for reference, nor can he use race ethics as that's grey over the various race disciplines, nor can he use new rules as they didn't apply.

If it was as easy as just clearing the LB's I think SMS would have done it already. I believe there are more much more involved for the developers like sponsors etc.

My point is, there's strong arguments both sides and from what I've seen this debate is destined to have a dead end. From there my question on the poll/voting. Perhaps not the best way, but with all facts involved one of the better options I believe. Majority of community is happy and no fingers can be pointed to anyone. If a helmet that cant be painted caused so many rants against SMS, I can only imagine what this matter will have installed for the unhappy side of the argument.

As previously said, my vote is for clearing the LB's

GMDLONDON
03-06-2015, 09:30
[QUOTE=Mancunain;960508]I think you'll find they have rights to do what they please with their software..
if something displeases the majority, then any game company would alter things.. if they lose a few of the minority over it then so be it, the game will survive & grow way beyond the smoke from this and those who ran away cos they cant cheat anymore will not be missed..


5.3 BNGE retains the right to suspend your access to the Game without previous notification if you violate the terms of this EULA. You will violate this EULA if you (or others using your online account) do any of the following:

• Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Game.
• Use or exploit any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Game or to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

You talking about this, you think I don’t know that? OR do you think Im gone cry if they ban my online play?

Or you think some 9 year old boy will understand why he cant play anymore this game? Coz he can’t find good setting and accidentally left the track or cut the corner, I help them if I can I do give my settings if they ask , I do give advice,
But when I ask one guy why he beat my time on Drive Club by cutting corner? He answer, Men why YOU making problems everyone is trying to be first. Then I did cut the corner to get back my position and I told him not to cut other corners.

We know how to drive inside the track but we don’t know if everyone do the same.

Maybe you think Sim Racing game is the same as REAL RACING?

Macedk
03-06-2015, 10:16
Make an option to report players in game.

Times should be verified by a sms panel.

Better anti cut implantation in game :).

o Mike V o
03-06-2015, 20:25
Make an option to report players in game.

Times should be verified by a sms panel.

Better anti cut implantation in game :).

They would be overloaded.

o Mike V o
03-06-2015, 20:28
My point is, there's strong arguments both sides and from what I've seen this debate is destined to have a dead end. From there my question on the poll/voting. Perhaps not the best way, but with all facts involved one of the better options I believe. Majority of community is happy and no fingers can be pointed to anyone. If a helmet that cant be painted caused so many rants against SMS, I can only imagine what this matter will have installed for the unhappy side of the argument.

As previously said, my vote is for clearing the LB's

IMO, the other side has no argument. Turn 10 got the LBs wiped in FM4 (or 3 I can't remember which one) I imagine SMS could convince MS to do the same.

Worm
04-06-2015, 03:04
IMO, the other side has no argument. Turn 10 got the LBs wiped in FM4 (or 3 I can't remember which one) I imagine SMS could convince MS to do the same.

2, 3, and 4

FM2 had the Lotus Elan times wiped. FM3 had the transmission glitch wiped. FM4 had it wiped on more than one occasion and waited too long to do it killing that portion of the game off.

DUST2DEATH
04-06-2015, 03:52
If it was as easy as just clearing the LB's I think SMS would have done it already. I believe there are more much more involved for the developers like sponsors etc.



It is easy (atleast on the pc side). They wiped the boards so many times during alpha.

At the end of the day, its all just a database, and records can be dumped.

madmax2069
04-06-2015, 03:55
It is easy (atleast on the pc side). They wiped the boards so many times during alpha.

At the end of the day, its all just a database, and records can be dumped.

And new records can be placed, if you set a record once you can do it again (that is if you didn't rely on corner cutting or taking a off track excursion)

FA RACING 01
04-06-2015, 05:59
It is easy (atleast on the pc side). They wiped the boards so many times during alpha.

At the end of the day, its all just a database, and records can be dumped.

Agreed, but what's the hold-up then [besides setting new track limits] ?

FACT0RY PIL0T
04-06-2015, 12:15
Fix the boundaries, wipe the boards is my vote. Hope it happens soon.

girlracerTracey
04-06-2015, 12:49
Fix the boundaries, wipe the boards is my vote. Hope it happens soon.

We have the same problems on motogp (as well as "bug" glitched leader boards as well which you don't have on Project Cars).

I agree fix the boundaries and wipe the boards if "cutting" has gone on. Otherwise what is the point?

I personally never ever cut. I cannot see the point. You're just cheating yourself. However it does seem to be human nature. Give ppl an inch..

I wish we could address this on motogp too but we have a developer who just "ships & forgets" unfortunately.

grT

BDR Daz
04-06-2015, 13:07
We have the same problems on motogp (as well as "bug" glitched leader boards as well which you don't have on Project Cars).

I wish we could address this on motogp too but we have a developer who just "ships & forgets" unfortunately.

grT

You are talking about Milestone, they have done the same on every Moto GP game and every SBK game since they got their hands on the licenses! Sadly some people "forget" every year and still fund the joke of a game ....

I agree a wipe needs to be done on Project Cars but I think the boundaries need to be looked at carefully, I agree they need to be tightened, we just need to be careful the rules arent tightened too much that people get penalised for a genuine mistake or being nudged out to cut the track ...

o Mike V o
04-06-2015, 16:33
I don't think they should have to slow down or anything due to a mistake, but more than 2 wheels over the white line should be invalidated everywhere.

WARDOGZ.UK
04-06-2015, 20:07
i agree it should be invalidated FOR THAT LAP, but, i disagree that the next lap also should be invalidated when yer only 2/3rds around the bloody lap, it's impossible to gain an advantage for the next lap and is just time consuming and annoying. ANYONE trying to set a hotlap can and WILL push limits, and to be penalized for trying and getting what is basically a 2 lap penalty is absurd, the last corner i agree with, but the whole of the last section? really ? LAZY programming, it doesn't take a genius to work out where time can be made up on each track, and it needs to be sorted.

DUST2DEATH
04-06-2015, 21:09
Agreed, but what's the hold-up then [besides setting new track limits] ?

competitions I guess. To wipe = to restart. <- speculation obviously.

GT_Racing
04-06-2015, 21:49
i agree it should be invalidated FOR THAT LAP, but, i disagree that the next lap also should be invalidated when yer only 2/3rds around the bloody lap, it's impossible to gain an advantage for the next lap and is just time consuming and annoying. ANYONE trying to set a hotlap can and WILL push limits, and to be penalized for trying and getting what is basically a 2 lap penalty is absurd, the last corner i agree with, but the whole of the last section? really ? LAZY programming, it doesn't take a genius to work out where time can be made up on each track, and it needs to be sorted.

Agreed. 100% The penalties in this game look like they have never been tested. The main one being next laps being invalidated way before you even get to the last corner on turns that have no effect on your speed going over the finish line.
Then there are some tracks that invalidate your time for barely inching a tire off the track.

Iwanchek
06-06-2015, 09:46
i agree it should be invalidated FOR THAT LAP, but, i disagree that the next lap also should be invalidated when yer only 2/3rds around the bloody lap, it's impossible to gain an advantage for the next lap and is just time consuming and annoying. ANYONE trying to set a hotlap can and WILL push limits, and to be penalized for trying and getting what is basically a 2 lap penalty is absurd, the last corner i agree with, but the whole of the last section? really ? LAZY programming, it doesn't take a genius to work out where time can be made up on each track, and it needs to be sorted.


Agree dude, it´s ridiculous the penalty system!! We need changes in that area!

SavageWS6
08-06-2015, 19:27
We should have at-least a in-game report feature. Implement a system like CS:GO does, legit racers who show good credibility should be able to review hot laps/ghosts which are on the leader board who are obviously cutting the track to get top 5-10 times should be punished for doing so. Maybe a ban for posting to the leader board via time trails? If found doing so for x,y,z tracks and doing it multiple times shouldn't be allowed to do time trails anymore.

It's sad that every time trial I go to or community event, there is players who are cutting the track, and actually got points in the Championship standings.

Since I'm asking for too much like the CS:GO feature, at-least give us a report player feature for cutting the track and invalid top times

JohnSchoonsBeard
08-06-2015, 22:05
As with many I believe all leaderboards whether community event or not should be wiped for all cars at all tracks on all systems once the track limit fix is in place. There's track cutting at many tracks in time trials.

I've not bothered with the community events since the use of exploits became apparent. Also many are only open for a couple of days. That doesn't give people with extra curricular activities (lives) much time chance to take part. I'm not in it to win it but at least give people a week or 2 for each time trial just to take part.

SavageWS6
08-06-2015, 22:22
For example, I was #1 with the P1 on Monza GP, which got taken away. This track is littered with corners you can cut. The community even last month with the BMW I think it was? Everyone was doing it, and I quit the game until now because of it. It's sad people do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGv3zVtbhzk

I think some of the slower guys are cutting and still can't legally beat my time.

DUST2DEATH
08-06-2015, 23:59
^of course they are, which is why only a full board wipe will make it fair for all at the top and the bottom of the boards.

SavageWS6
09-06-2015, 02:22
Sigh... This is so sad people gotta resort to this. I want legit competition, not assholes who know how to rally drive better than me in pCars

Joni Varis
09-06-2015, 09:24
Just thought to post this here to show what should be the rules of track limits for a clean lap


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvWR00Non1U

As you see i did use kerbs quite a bit, but at same time kept two wheels on the track side. Its by no means perfect lap, but quite representative what in my opinion clean lap should be track limit wise.

TheLethalDose
09-06-2015, 09:38
Argh I'm raging right now after getting a 1.19.800 and #1 on Monza GP legit only for someone to cut chicanes and drive sloppily to get a 1.19.400.

All the top guys were keeping it clean and not cutting until this guy and what looks like his 3 buddies all went from no placing on the leaderboard to 1.19's overnight.

FUUUUUUUUUU

Joni Varis
09-06-2015, 09:43
Thats why there is no point to put any serious effort to TT atm for clean racers. There is very few tracks that are cut free & there is always some guys who thinks cutting is the way to go. Sad really as its completely ruining it.

Wop-Actual
09-06-2015, 14:43
Thats why the is no point to put any serious effort to TT atm for clean racers. There is very few tracks that are cut free & there is always some guys who thinks cutting is the way to go. Sad really as it completely ruining it.

Complete agreement. Nothing more frustrating than spending hours with a car on perfecting lap times, to then jump into Time Trials and end up 20s behind 1st position, only to realize the posted time is physically impossible.

o Mike V o
09-06-2015, 14:52
At least it will be easy for the clean guys to post fast times straight away if the LBs get wiped, the exploiters will have to relearn.

David Semperger
09-06-2015, 15:04
At least it will be easy for the clean guys to post fast times straight away if the LBs get wiped, the exploiters will have to relearn.

The best of them won't have to relearn anything. Anto, Antuofermo, FinPro, Schumi, Stazer92 and some others who did resort to cutting would be at the top anyway. Just compare the first sector times in this weekend's Zolder event: http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard/event?event=28

Anyone with a 0:33+ had no business being in the top 25, they only managed it by cutting, but if you look at the times of the best drivers you'll see that they all did a 0:32. These guys still would have beaten 99% of the field even if cutting wouldn't be possible.

Joni Varis
09-06-2015, 15:32
Monaco & barcelona FA events were only i personally took part (just because i like to drive that car) & without cuts im pretty sure LB would of been looking quite different. Also what im sure is that many of the fast guys did skip it alltogether after they saw what kind of cutfest it is. Will see how how it ends up when the cut detection finally gets fixed.

Also its not fully true that they dont need to "relearn anything" as with cuts most guys probably used quite a different setups than they would of used while driving inside the track, if you actually need to take some corners you need more grip in most cases aswell.

David Semperger
09-06-2015, 15:42
Monaco & barcelona FA events were only i personally took part (just because i like to drive that car) & without cuts im pretty sure LB would of been looking quite different. Also what im sure is that many of the fast guys did skip it alltogether after they saw what kind of cutfest it is. Will see how how it ends up when the cut detection finally gets fixed.

As someone who've been following your ghosts for years during development I'm sure you'll give the new guys a run for their money. :)

EDIT:


Also its not fully true that they dont need to "relearn anything" as with cuts most guys probably used quite a different setups than they would of used while driving inside the track, if you actually need to take some corners you need more grip in most cases aswell.

True, although in my experience good drivers can make the adjustment fairly quickly, in 10-15 laps tops. I mean these guys obviously know what they had to adjust to utilize the cuts to their fullest, so it would follow that they also know what they need to do to be fast while staying on track.

Also, to clarify, I'm sure the leaderboards will change somewhat with cutting fixes, but I'm also sure the absolute top won't change as much as some people here are hoping for.

GT-Club_Atho_
09-06-2015, 19:48
My lap on the SMS-R Championship at Oulton Park. Track boundaries at his maximum.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuH2evBNTj0&list=FLkZWRzX_CHuMzS2yDyDEfEw

Sankyo
09-06-2015, 19:55
My lap on the SMS-R Championship at Oulton Park. Track boundaries at his maximum.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuH2evBNTj0&list=FLkZWRzX_CHuMzS2yDyDEfEw

1:02 and 1:16: we really need more sensitive suspension damage ;)

David Semperger
09-06-2015, 20:09
My lap on the SMS-R Championship at Oulton Park. Track boundaries at his maximum.

Damn, that was a thing of beauty. Well done Atho.

GT_Racing
09-06-2015, 20:19
My lap on the SMS-R Championship at Oulton Park. Track boundaries at his maximum.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuH2evBNTj0&list=FLkZWRzX_CHuMzS2yDyDEfEw

Thats a fast lap, but dang they let people go four off way to much in this game.

DUST2DEATH
09-06-2015, 21:07
I'm also sure the absolute top won't change as much as some people here are hoping for.

yep, no matter the limits, the assists, whatever filtering, fast guys are just fast.

TheLethalDose
09-06-2015, 23:57
yep, no matter the limits, the assists, whatever filtering, fast guys are just fast.

Depends really, I did a 1.19.800 on Monza with no cuts and the guy that knocked me out of #1 would have shaved off at least a second cutting yet only got the top spot by .3 something...so in this instance a guy that is slower than me only got the top spot through cutting.

On Laguna Seca also, when I was running it I was always a significant distance ahead of the #1 ghost until the corkscrew which he cut. Again I was the better driver but he cut the track to make up for it. (I ended up beating him by nearly a second with no cutting after a few laps though :)

nwrlchargerl
11-06-2015, 04:31
It's gone from time trials to cut trials. See who can take the cuts the fastest lol. Can't wait for it to be sorted. Would be a massive bonus if once the cuts are fixed you reset ALL of the time trial leaderboards to. Then we will see who the fast guys are

ASF - Nobody
11-06-2015, 09:32
Do we actually have any word on when the track cut fixes will be implemented? As it stands Hotlap Events are nonsensical until the cutting is sorted.

Ian Bell
11-06-2015, 09:33
Do we actually have any word on when the track cut fixes will be implemented? As it stands Hotlap Events are nonsensical until the cutting is sorted.

Many are covered in 1.4 We're working on the rest.

Joni Varis
12-06-2015, 03:44
What a about the leaderboards,are they going to get wipe? There is simply no way to beat times on most tracks done with cuts.

yusupov
12-06-2015, 03:48
i agree, was coming to ask when i saw this thread -- i hope leaderboards will simply be reset.

o Mike V o
12-06-2015, 17:54
Thanks, Ian.

GT_Racing
12-06-2015, 20:59
Just qualified and raced at Bugatti circuit and you can still cut corners 2,3,7, and 8 pretty badly without any penalty.

Edit: To clarify I am talking four wheels off with no lap invalidation.

DUST2DEATH
12-06-2015, 21:20
Many are covered in 1.4 We're working on the rest.

When are you wiping the boards?

apexatspeed
12-06-2015, 21:30
After 1.4 on PS4 I was able to cut a massive chunk through the grass at chicane on Imola and as GT Racing said I could cut all the corners on Bugatti Circuit from before.

Umer Ahmad
12-06-2015, 21:56
Someone has tested Zolder? That was a cutters paradise (esp 2nd chicane)

Ian Bell
12-06-2015, 21:58
Just qualified and raced at Bugatti circuit and you can still cut corners 2,3,7, and 8 pretty badly without any penalty.

Edit: To clarify I am talking four wheels off with no lap invalidation.

I made the call that kerbs should be considered part of the track. If you have a vid or images for me I'd appreciate it. Maybe our coded definition of 'kerbs' is too loose. If so it's an easy 'fix'.

Also to an earlier question, I agree we should reset leader boards.

Ian Bell
12-06-2015, 22:01
PS guys remember that only some tracks have been covered in 1.4. There are a lot of tracks left to be tightened up.

mister dog
12-06-2015, 22:07
As long as it doesn't become over sensitive i'm happy. Hate it when you go wide a couple of cm's on the grass and have your time invalidated, whilst going wide by itself already cost you time to begin with. Some games implement it overly strict like that. Imagine it happening when you are almost 20 km's far on a lap of the Shleiffe.. :)

DUST2DEATH
12-06-2015, 22:24
Also to an earlier question, I agree we should reset leader boards.

Great!

Next question, will you be restarting the competitions?

Ian Bell
12-06-2015, 23:09
As long as it doesn't become over sensitive i'm happy. Hate it when you go wide a couple of cm's on the grass and have your time invalidated, whilst going wide by itself already cost you time to begin with. Some games implement it overly strict like that. Imagine it happening when you are almost 20 km's far on a lap of the Shleiffe.. :)

I agree completely.

During dev we tested many options, two wheels off (far too strict) four wheels off (OK so long as you're not gaining an advantage), various strictness levels for kerbs etc.

I think we have a good balance so long as we eliminate obvious chicane cutting and we're working hard on that.

Ian Bell
12-06-2015, 23:09
Great!

Next question, will you be restarting the competitions?

It's one for Andy Tudor. Not within my remit (or knowledge TBH) but I do think we need a reset.

mister dog
12-06-2015, 23:21
I agree completely.

During dev we tested many options, two wheels off (far too strict) four wheels off (OK so long as you're not gaining an advantage), various strictness levels for kerbs etc.

I think we have a good balance so long as we eliminate obvious chicane cutting and we're working hard on that.
Cheers Ian, the invalidations themselves for going wide are implemented quite good already, i didn't get frustrated so far as i knew it was my own fault whenever i got one, so i agree that it's just some corners in particular that need sorting out when people are able to drive past them.

Oh and please don't install more sausage curbs, they are hugely irritating :)

DUST2DEATH
12-06-2015, 23:28
It's one for Andy Tudor. Not within my remit (or knowledge TBH) but I do think we need a reset.

Thank you. Would you be so kind as to pass it on to him please. Im sure many would love an answer to that burning question.

Ian Bell
12-06-2015, 23:30
Thank you. Would you be so kind as to pass it on to him please. Im sure many would love an answer to that burning question.

Remind me on Monday please.

MULTIVITZ
12-06-2015, 23:38
So to help identify the tracks that have been cleaned up, would it be possible to just have them ones reset on the leaderboards?

GT_Racing
13-06-2015, 00:00
I made the call that kerbs should be considered part of the track. If you have a vid or images for me I'd appreciate it. Maybe our coded definition of 'kerbs' is too loose. If so it's an easy 'fix'.

Also to an earlier question, I agree we should reset leader boards.

Ok so I went to Bugatti Circuit and took some photos. My brother and I ran a bunch of laps and found 3 really major and 1 kind of major spots where you can run four wheels off without invalidating your lap. Turns 3, 7, 8 and the second part of 11 can be cut very easily and you can gain a second per cut.

Turn 3 is a big one. It seems like you can cut it as long as you do not hit the sand.
207517

Turn 7 is the same you can do it as long as you don't touch the grass
207518

Turn 8: As long as you don't touch the sand or the grass in front of where the car is placed.
207519

Last Corner you can pretty much cut the whole thing. I was not aware of this until I went to take these pictures. I drove over the grass that you can see in the second picture below and sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't invalidate my lap. It seems like driving really close to the wall up there is what caused it to get invalidated, but both times I went across the grass. Turn 11 is visually two turns, and the last two on the track. You have to go around the first part of the double right hander. Then you can immediately cut right and drive across the painted part of the infield. In the last picture both cars are sitting in "valid" parts of the circuit.
207520
207521

Edit: I can post from different tracks as I stumple upon them if youd like.

FoxMulder
13-06-2015, 00:05
I'd be happy with a '2 tyres on tarmac' rule.

MULTIVITZ
13-06-2015, 00:07
That last bend looks a bit naughty, does the surface slow acceleration? The other kerbs look ok and smooth track extension, now we can get massive speed through the s bend, nice. 140MPH+ in the FA:cool: I can't see the problem, if you got some fool sitting in the middle of the s bend, at least you can avoid them!
I love riding a kerb;) almost as good as knocking a cone over?

Panopticism
13-06-2015, 00:49
Will the fixes include people who cut wide on, for example, Tertre Rouge?

Umer Ahmad
13-06-2015, 00:49
Thanks i've reported those to the team

Pink_650S
13-06-2015, 00:58
...The other kerbs look ok and smooth track extension...

No, they definitely do not look okay.

yusupov
13-06-2015, 01:41
That last bend looks a bit naughty, does the surface slow acceleration? The other kerbs look ok and smooth track extension, now we can get massive speed through the s bend, nice. 140MPH+ in the FA:cool: I can't see the problem, if you got some fool sitting in the middle of the s bend, at least you can avoid them!
I love riding a kerb;) almost as good as knocking a cone over?

are you serious? just bc something is paved or not grass/dirt/gravel doesnt mean its part of the track. especially these days...

o Mike V o
13-06-2015, 08:44
After you wipe the LBs, add a separate LB for GT3 please ;)

NemethR
13-06-2015, 17:21
Thanks i've reported those to the team

First of all thank you for you dedication :)
I only wish to add, that the "normal" Le mans track can be cut in the same places... Just did the community event, and well, yeah. No point doing it :(

xautos
13-06-2015, 20:14
This seems to be popping up a lot so here is the official word from Doug (man in blue).

Link (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26561-TRACK-LIMITS-LBS-TIMETRIAL-CORNER-CUTTING-CHEATING&p=929126&viewfull=1#post929126)


Link (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26561-TRACK-LIMITS-LBS-TIMETRIAL-CORNER-CUTTING-CHEATING&p=931098&viewfull=1#post931098)

yeah the off track limits a little to strict, even for simple mistakes and especially towards the last few turns of the previous lap where that laps time is taken and the next laps as well. its counter productive and a waste of drivers time to eliminate the next lap so casually. mistakes happen and not every drivers lap time is taken away by overshooting just a little in some corners.

Ian Bell
13-06-2015, 20:16
Ok so I went to Bugatti Circuit and took some photos. My brother and I ran a bunch of laps and found 3 really major and 1 kind of major spots where you can run four wheels off without invalidating your lap. Turns 3, 7, 8 and the second part of 11 can be cut very easily and you can gain a second per cut.

Turn 3 is a big one. It seems like you can cut it as long as you do not hit the sand.
207517

Turn 7 is the same you can do it as long as you don't touch the grass
207518

Turn 8: As long as you don't touch the sand or the grass in front of where the car is placed.
207519

Last Corner you can pretty much cut the whole thing. I was not aware of this until I went to take these pictures. I drove over the grass that you can see in the second picture below and sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't invalidate my lap. It seems like driving really close to the wall up there is what caused it to get invalidated, but both times I went across the grass. Turn 11 is visually two turns, and the last two on the track. You have to go around the first part of the double right hander. Then you can immediately cut right and drive across the painted part of the infield. In the last picture both cars are sitting in "valid" parts of the circuit.
207520
207521

Edit: I can post from different tracks as I stumple upon them if youd like.

That fits nicely with my point in another post. We've flagged that large painted area in code as 'kerb', that's the issue. Thankfully it's an easy fix.

DUST2DEATH
13-06-2015, 20:31
yeah the off track limits a little to strict, even for simple mistakes and especially towards the last few turns of the previous lap where that laps time is taken and the next laps as well. its counter productive and a waste of drivers time to eliminate the next lap so casually. mistakes happen and not every drivers lap time is taken away by overshooting just a little in some corners.

huh?

The off track limits need to be far far stricter. I think you are referring to the next lap being invalidated, to which it should stay, just tweaked depending on the track, last sector & last turn advantages continue to invalidate.

GMDLONDON
13-06-2015, 20:48
It's one for Andy Tudor. Not within my remit (or knowledge TBH) but I do think we need a reset.

Wisconsin Retrospective event, can we get restart?

Pink_650S
13-06-2015, 20:50
Where do people cut on that track?

WhoosierGirl
13-06-2015, 22:38
I agree we should reset leader boards.

Is that an across the board reset of all leader boards or just the tracks where the boundaries can be cut? I purposely chose tracks that couldn't be cheated yesterday and I kinda like my name up in lights, lol.

PS, love the game now that I can use my steering wheel properly.....just needs more 'pink' paint, please :)

Andy Tudor
14-06-2015, 09:20
Hey there,

Just a note that I'll be discussing leaderboards further with the online team on Monday.

SMS-R Driver Network Championship rounds will not be reset - they're only available for a limited time and all ghosts (where possible) are reviewed before points are allocated to ensure they are not impossible, fraudulent, nor suspicious. schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances.

Competition rounds will not be reset - again the top entries are reviewed manually to ensure that only credible players win these. Some of the winners from the Bavarian Legend competition were not the players in the top spot for example ;) We understand that it's annoying to see players at the top of the leaderboard who may have times not befitting of 'professional conduct' and as improvements to the Track Cutting system arrive you'll see this less and less until we hopefully reach a wholly robust system. Any future competition rounds will of course benefit these improvements.

For all other leaderboards I'll check with the online team whether individual wipes can occur or whether it would be game-wide. In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards. Azure Circuit and Azure Coast are great examples of ones that are on the list to be deleted for example.

So please know that checks are being done and cheaters dealt with, improvements are coming, and options are being looked at to ensure fairness amongst all competitors.

mister dog
14-06-2015, 09:29
In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards. Azure Circuit and Azure Coast are great examples of ones that are on the list to be deleted for example.

Agreed, thanks for not taking the easy way and just wiping everything. Will be quite some work checking individual times but if it's not for one of the official SMS competitions, i don't think it's very urgent.

FA RACING 01
14-06-2015, 09:42
Great news Andy :yes: Sounds like a massive task, but seems like a great middle way to solve the matter towards both sides. Thanks.

Siberian Tiger
14-06-2015, 10:10
That's a Prime Example that SMS never was going "the Easiest Way" all the 3 Years while the Developement Phase :)

Glad they will all deal with all these Exploits :)

TheLethalDose
14-06-2015, 10:59
Hey there,

Just a note that I'll be discussing leaderboards further with the online team on Monday.

SMS-R Driver Network Championship rounds will not be reset - they're only available for a limited time and all ghosts (where possible) are reviewed before points are allocated to ensure they are not impossible, fraudulent, nor suspicious. schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances.

Competition rounds will not be reset - again the top entries are reviewed manually to ensure that only credible players win these. Some of the winners from the Bavarian Legend competition were not the players in the top spot for example ;) We understand that it's annoying to see players at the top of the leaderboard who may have times not befitting of 'professional conduct' and as improvements to the Track Cutting system arrive you'll see this less and less until we hopefully reach a wholly robust system. Any future competition rounds will of course benefit these improvements.

For all other leaderboards I'll check with the online team whether individual wipes can occur or whether it would be game-wide. In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards. Azure Circuit and Azure Coast are great examples of ones that are on the list to be deleted for example.

So please know that checks are being done and cheaters dealt with, improvements are coming, and options are being looked at to ensure fairness amongst all competitors.

Thanks Andy, I would probably be slightly upset if my legitimate 1.19.800 Monza GP time was wiped. Thankfully the top 2 spots above my time heavily cut the track so I can't wait until they are wiped and I'm back to #1 :D

Iwanchek
14-06-2015, 11:59
when can we expect the damn fix for the track cutting?? why didnt tyey fixed it in the last patch? please dont tell me that i need to wait another few months for this one???????? they knew about this problem but so far no patch-fix-solution..!

David Semperger
14-06-2015, 12:23
What about my time at Le Mans Andy?

I'd like to say that I very much appreciate that you guys are looking into this, because the track limits are far too forgiving in many places. That said, I think the what you're doing now, enforcing rules different to the sim's, makes things more confusing.

How should we know what lines are we allowed to use? What exactly was the difference between Schumi's and F1-Masa's lap that made one legit in your opinion, but not the other? Currently we can easily lose our lap and lock ourselves out of points if we adhere to the rules of the game (like Schumi in this case), but without knowing exactly what you guys consider a legit lap we can also easily lose seconds with an overly conservative lap.

At this point I'm sure some people would ask (as they did in the past) that why don't I just stay between the white lines. These people are missing the point of racing entirely in my opinion. Using the fastest allowed line is the goal here. The problem is that we have no idea what that is currently.

Again, I'm all for improving the cut detection, it's really needed. However I firmly believe that judging our laps based on rules that aren't enforced by the game is worse than doing nothing, because we don't know what the rules are. Obviously some laps were simply bugged and using wallriding should be illegal, but otherwise legal racing lines were never more nebulous.

Joni Varis
14-06-2015, 13:19
Different people, different opinions. But honestly "Golden rule" of simracing has always been 2 wheels at track side. If you decided to do otherwise you can only look in the mirror if times will be deleted. Also its not really true that you dont know what the rules are. It was clearly stated that cutting/exploiting track boundaries aint allowed anymore.

The whole point of competetive racing is to drive the track (yes the prober track layout, not the one cutters created for themself) as fast as possible.

FA RACING 01
14-06-2015, 13:57
Dont think there's one way to solve the issue and keep everybody happy, so Andy's way I believe is the best middle way.

Fabian Baumgarten
14-06-2015, 14:07
Wisconsin Retrospective event, can we get restart?

no need to restart. there is no cut on that track!


...
SMS-R Driver Network Championship rounds will not be reset - they're only available for a limited time and all ghosts (where possible) are reviewed before points are allocated to ensure they are not impossible, fraudulent, nor suspicious. schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances...

seriously?? this has to be a joke!!! first of all let me get this clear: I'm totally ok with deleting my time, because i don't sticked to the rules and went off the track at several places to gain time. you announced this before and i ignored it. but i like to see the difference in my lap and in the "legal" time of F1-Massa. There is totally NO(!!!) difference. he cuts the same corners as me and is off track at the same places. so i don't see why his time is legal and mine not!?! i could live with it, if you will delete all times, where the ghost tells you that the driver left the track with all 4 wheels. but deleting times by some "random rules" is just ridiculous.

So please be fair and delete his time and all other times, where a driver left the track with all 4 wheels. this is a strict rule that everybody can understand and no one can complain about. but deciding on your own (i mean the whole team!) with no rules, just by your liking which time is legal and which one not, is totally wrong!

ibby
14-06-2015, 15:24
Gotta agree. Either go always 2 tyres within white lines or not.
In Qualifying they always do this rule.

If F1 Masa cuts anywhere he's out. If he's always in with 2 tyres he's in.

Please No, oh this just barely ok subjective stuff.

We need clear rules. What was written by Andy is not clear for me.

Just got that Motorsports fuck yeah gotta start up pcars feeling after watching lemans..
And now lost all interest... AGAIN. :/

David Semperger
14-06-2015, 15:24
Different people, different opinions.

Yep, so let's stick to what we know to be facts.


But honestly "Golden rule" of simracing has always been 2 wheels at track side.

It may have been the intended rule, but all sims I raced had issues relating to this. The difference is that in other sims in the end the white line was always enforced, despite cut detection problems. This is a really important distinction, because the white line is clearly visible for drivers during a lap, unlike the limit that's being enforced by the devs in pCARS at the moment, which according to the posts from Andy lie somewhere between the sim's own track limit (it's own white line if you will) and the white line beside the track.


Also its not really true that you dont know what the rules are. It was clearly stated that cutting/exploiting track boundaries aint allowed anymore.

You are missing the point. Look at the ghosts of the top 25 people, all of them (and probably much more) cut the track at various points if we use the white lines as the limit, including F1-Masa, whose lap was deemed legit by Andy. So tell me now, where are those boundaries you speak of? Why was Schumi's (Fabian Baumgartners') lap invalidated, but not F1-Masa's? What's the distinction between the two laps? Clearly, if you'd do what you suggest others to do, stay between the white lines, you'd wouldn't be racing the full extent of the track, because those lines aren't considered the boundary by the devs, nor the sim. You don't know where the limits lie either. The white line may be the limit in real life, but it isn't in here, not yet at least.


The whole point of competetive racing is to drive the track (yes the prober track layout, not the one cutters created for themself) as fast as possible.

The point is using full extent of the track, whatever that may be. If you stick to the white line when it's actually not the real track limit you are artificially limiting yourself. I respect your choice in that, but that line of thinking is incompatible with a competition to me.

In short, I want clearly identifiable track limits enforced, not something that's somewhere between the current flawed track detection and the white line beside the track. Barring that, I think it's infinitely better to simply let people cut the track as much as the game currently allows *until* the cuts are fixed, because again, what limits the game allow is at least clearly distinguishable due to the messages we receive when we go past them. Without clearly identifiable limits we can only guess what's allowed and it's damn near impossible to compete like that. It feels like a game of luck honestly.

Joni Varis
14-06-2015, 15:48
I allready gaved up on these events & dont really care anymore how it ends up to be, it was deemed to be messed up when SMS let all this cutfest keep going at first place. For actual racing (leagues etc) there will always be the 2 wheel on track ruling, doesnt really matter what ridicilous track limits game itself has. So people who actually do competetive racing, they will always have to stick with prober track limits.

But good luck for all guys who still spend their time to this nonsense.

David Semperger
14-06-2015, 15:53
I allready gaved up on these events & dont really care anymore how it ends up to be, it was deemed to be messed up when SMS let all this cutfest keep going at first place. For actual racing (leagues etc) there will always be the 2 wheel on track ruling, doesnt really matter what ridicilous track limits game itself has. So people who actually do competetive racing, they will always have to stick with prober track limits.

But good luck for all guys who still spend their time to this nonsense.

It's absolutely fine to have house rules for custom events that are more strict than the game's own (essentially using a handicap). We can't enforce anything like that in free for all competitions however, unless the game does it in real time. We need one, single, well-identifiable rule set for community events. If the rules initially end up being way too lenient, but at least the game objectively enforces them that's still way better than rules that are only enforced after the events finish. In the latter case (what we have now) how should I or anyone else know for sure that we A) used the track as much as we could and B) posted a valid lap. The answer is that we can't. We may as well be drawing straws here.

It's funny though. Despite the fact that we approach this problem from completely opposite ways, we reach the same conclusion: these time trials are getting ridiculous. I seriously considered skipping them altogether starting with this weekend, but I wanted to give them another chance. Now I kinda I wish I didn't. Despite the cuts I really enjoyed competing against fast guys like Fabian, Antuofermo, the guys from BAM, SDL, or anyone in the top 10 really, but it's not nearly as much fun when I don't know if the faster drivers will indeed win or will they get disqualified after the fact for using a line they had no way of knowing was not deemed legal.

ibby
14-06-2015, 15:57
Yep, so let's stick to what we know to be facts.



It may have been the intended rule, but all sims I raced had issues relating to this. The difference is that in other sims in the end the white line was always enforced, despite cut detection problems. This is a really important distinction, because the white line is clearly visible for drivers during a lap, unlike the limit that's being enforced by the devs in pCARS at the moment, which according to the posts from Andy lie somewhere between the sim's own track limit (it's own white line if you will) and the white line beside the track.



You are missing the point. Look at the ghosts of the top 25 people, all of them cut the track at various points if we use the white lines as the limit, including F1-Masa, whose lap was deemed legit by Andy. So tell me now, where are those boundaries you speak of? Why was Schumi's (Fabian Baumgartners') lap invalidated, but not F1-Masa's? What's the distinction between the two laps? Clearly, if you'd do what you suggest others to do, stay between the white lines, you'd wouldn't be racing the full extent of the track, because those lines aren't considered the boundary by the devs, nor the sim. You don't know where the limits lie either. The white line may be the limit in real life, but it isn't in here, not yet at least.



The point is using full extent of the track, whatever that may be. If you stick to the white line when it's actually not the real track limit you are artificially limiting yourself. I respect your choice in that, but that line of thinking is incompatible with a competition to me.

In short, I want clearly identifiable track limits enforced, not something that's somewhere between the current flawed track detection and the white line beside the track. Barring that, I think it's infinitely better to simply let people cut the track as much as the game currently allows *until* the cuts are fixed, because again, what limits the game allow is at least clearly distinguishable due to the messages we receive when we go past them. Without clearly identifiable limits we can only guess what's allowed and it's damn near impossible to compete without clear rules about this. It feels like a game of luck honestly.

We're probably all overthinking this.
We all just have to imagine we're Andy Tudor and imagine what his within acceptable tolerances means. Without ever getting an example.
Then we all invest lots of time to get to the top and suddenly we're 5 cm further away from the white line than some other guy who is also outside of the track but our time is gone.

I'm also out. Good luck to all getting within the tolerance.

David Semperger
14-06-2015, 16:00
We all just have to imagine we're Andy Tudor and imagine what his within acceptable tolerances means.

I wish I was Han, his imagination was clearly more capable than mine.

https://i.imgflip.com/lfr4g.jpg

Worm
14-06-2015, 16:17
If the boards aren't wiped I've wasted money on a game I will have no interest in playing or buying further products from a developer that had me very interested in their products. Enough so that I bought my gaming rig with this game in mind. Shame.

David Semperger
14-06-2015, 16:20
If the boards aren't wiped I've wasted money on a game I will have no interest in playing or buying further products from a developer that had me very interested in their products. Enough so that I bought my gaming rig with this game in mind. Shame.

Leaderboards, or at least laps with cuts will be very likely wiped, as soon as the cuts for the specific tracks are eliminated. Before that there would be no point.

Lars Rosenquist
14-06-2015, 16:51
You guys can't even wait for Andy (or other SMS member) to respond to your questions (who bothers to post on his free Sunday ffs) before throwing a hissy fit and making all kinds of assumptions? Seriously, what's with people these days? And especially WMD members should know better than this.

Fabian Baumgarten
14-06-2015, 16:59
Gotta agree. Either go always 2 tyres within white lines or not.
In Qualifying they always do this rule.

If F1 Masa cuts anywhere he's out. If he's always in with 2 tyres he's in.

Please No, oh this just barely ok subjective stuff.

We need clear rules. What was written by Andy is not clear for me.

Just got that Motorsports fuck yeah gotta start up pcars feeling after watching lemans..
And now lost all interest... AGAIN. :/

just drive a lap in time trail or even the competition with f1-massa's ghost loaded. you will laugh your ass of, when you see what the sms stuff counts as legal ...

Lars Rosenquist
14-06-2015, 17:16
Again, let's give SMS some time to respond here. You guys have valid concerns; rules should be clear and objective. But there's no point in riling each other up.

Fabian Baumgarten
14-06-2015, 17:57
Again, let's give SMS some time to respond here. You guys have valid concerns; rules should be clear and objective. But there's no point in riling each other up.

true. i didn't want to stress anybody. I'm sure the SMS team is very busy at the moment. just wanted to represent my perspective.
maybe some WMD members could help SMS team by watching ghosts and "mark" the drivers, which left track with all 4 wheels. this would be fairest for everyone. so everyone who decided to cut in this event, despite the fact SMS made clear that cutted laps will be deleted, have to deal with it (myself included!). i'm just for understandable, fair rules for everyone, that's all...

choupolo
14-06-2015, 18:10
true. i didn't want to stress anybody. I'm sure the SMS team is very busy at the moment. just wanted to represent my perspective.
maybe some WMD members could help SMS team by watching ghosts and "mark" the drivers, which left track with all 4 wheels. this would be fairest for everyone. so everyone who decided to cut in this event, despite the fact SMS made clear that cutted laps will be deleted, have to deal with it (myself included!). i'm just for understandable, fair rules for everyone, that's all...

Their last official response sounded like they would only review the ghosts of each player in the top 20 of the competition so that they could allocate points fairly. So that leaves the rest of us unaffected. They can't individually review the whole leaderboard.

So the only solution is to fix track limits strictly to the white lines for the purposes of laptime validity, for ALL tracks (there are pretty much cuts on most corners of every track), and then wipe the leaderboards completely. Nothing else would be fair imo.

ibby
14-06-2015, 18:21
You guys can't even wait for Andy (or other SMS member) to respond to your questions (who bothers to post on his free Sunday ffs) before throwing a hissy fit and making all kinds of assumptions? Seriously, what's with people these days? And especially WMD members should know better than this.

Sorry you're right. I got emotional once in 4 years writing in pcars forums.
I just looked at F1 Masa's ghost and then vented. It just made it obvious that there really was no point in even trying to get a good clean lap in.
And that the people running the competition aren't even trying to use motorsport rules. Which is ok, really. If you communicate it that way at least. :)

N0body Of The Goat
14-06-2015, 21:05
All I'm going to say is WMD members, remember the "fun" we had when we began the in-house testing weekly competitions, when we began seeing the ghosts of the "top drivers?"

I want my relative postition in competitions and leaderboards to be based on honest driving, not using any track or setup exploits. I've only used default setups for all TT times I've set and any of the retail comps IIRC and without having reviewed many of my ghosts, I bet there are at least several I would like to erase.

Because more than two wheels went outside the track defining white lines.

stux
14-06-2015, 22:06
Fix the track limits how they should be, then run the ghosts through a special build which flags invalid lap times.

It should be possible to process all laps this way and then only delete invalid times.

Without excessive manual intervention.

bmanic
14-06-2015, 22:15
Have to agree with ibby. This is very simple: 2 wheels within the race track which is marked with the white lines = good lap. Less than 2 wheels within the white lines = disqualified lap. Simple as that. Very simple.

bmanic
14-06-2015, 22:17
Fix the track limits how they should be, then run the ghosts through a special build which flags invalid lap times.

It should be possible to process all laps this way and then only delete invalid times.

Without excessive manual intervention.

One would think so. I basically suggested something like this as an anti-cheat way back in end of 2011.. a system where it is calculated mathematically exactly what the absolute optimum laptime is possible to do because we know all physics/tire capabilities.. then automatically flag every lap that is faster than this as it will be guaranteed cheating. Also flag each lap which is within a few tenths of the mathematically fastest possible time for further investigation.

However, this kind of system turns out to be extremely complex and not at all easy to do so I'm pretty sure your suggestion isn't either as easy as one would first assume.

NemethR
14-06-2015, 22:49
For all other leaderboards I'll check with the online team whether individual wipes can occur or whether it would be game-wide. In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards.

And what about the World Records for each track/car?
I mean its impossible to check every single time on every track with every car.

I would say, even if you guys would only erase very time that is faster then the fastest acceptable time would mean that someone would need to check like 20.000 ghosts. (at least)

Imo., a system for time trial / community events should be introduced, where only 2 wheels can cross the white line, or the lap time would be invalidated. also any wheel on the grass, runoff area, etc. (other then curbs) would invalidate the time.
And then wipe all leaderboards.

tbh. i don't understand how this was not in the game at launch. The WMD members surely tested this, the devs surely could manage to do it properly...

DUST2DEATH
15-06-2015, 01:23
Hey there,

Just a note that I'll be discussing leaderboards further with the online team on Monday.

SMS-R Driver Network Championship rounds will not be reset - they're only available for a limited time and all ghosts (where possible) are reviewed before points are allocated to ensure they are not impossible, fraudulent, nor suspicious. schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances.



please define acceptable tolerance....



Competition rounds will not be reset - again the top entries are reviewed manually to ensure that only credible players win these. Some of the winners from the Bavarian Legend competition were not the players in the top spot for example ;) We understand that it's annoying to see players at the top of the leaderboard who may have times not befitting of 'professional conduct' and as improvements to the Track Cutting system arrive you'll see this less and less until we hopefully reach a wholly robust system. Any future competition rounds will of course benefit these improvements.

For all other leaderboards I'll check with the online team whether individual wipes can occur or whether it would be game-wide. In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards. Azure Circuit and Azure Coast are great examples of ones that are on the list to be deleted for example.

So please know that checks are being done and cheaters dealt with, improvements are coming, and options are being looked at to ensure fairness amongst all competitors.

wipes are good, because legitimate racers have been sitting on the side waiting for the boards to be wiped fully before deciding its worth even playing.
This already has a negative effect on the community as we arent going to bother to post times. The only people that will not post times again after a wipe are those that wont be playing in a months time anyway.

Not what I was hoping to hear personally.

Going to have to agree with everyone else, this leaves us no reason to play.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 06:56
Wipe everything imo, damn some of my time's go missing anyway.

EMW Simmo
15-06-2015, 08:27
Wipe everything imo, damn some of my time's go missing anyway.

Yep what is the point at least 50% of my times have just gone missing....lol, its as though the game is not powerful enough to hold more than about 10 top times...
And ive only run on a few tracks.
Like yesterday i ran Nurburg short in prototype, but lost my road car time on the same track lol...
Ive lost times from loads of tracks, including freinds and other racers aswell, something is majorly broken.

EMW Simmo
15-06-2015, 08:35
SMS need to fix this asap, i dont know how the game is loosing data but, its becoming pointless to do anything on this game on xbox 1, adding the the fact we have no multiplayer, just renders the game useless....
Dont get me wrong the game could be great, but is along way off that..
E3 this week and although i think P cars will be better than Forza given time, alot of people have already had enough n will go back to Forza, just because its easier and more polished.

Lanius1984
15-06-2015, 09:15
I'm another that's in support of simply wiping everything once the track limits have been corrected.
I haven't bothered with Time Trial much in this game, and it's usually my go-to mode. There's no point trying to set legitimate laps at this point in time. For any that I have set, no problem setting them again for the greater good.

One track that I have spent a little time on in Time Trial is Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya GP - I always try to keep my car within track limits (ie. 2 wheels within the white line at all times). However, many of the ghosts cut corners, including a nice straight line across the final chicane, saving 0.5-1 second.
It's quite odd to be ahead of a ghost for most of a lap, only to be overtaken when it takes a shortcut at the end. It isn't just the faster laps that include cutting, quite simply, any entry on the board could have used an exploit. If you can't fairly implement a rule, then wipe down everything IMHO, as surely not every ghost will be checked. It doesn't matter whether someone is in 1st of 1000th, if they have cut the track to gain a place on the board, then someone else has been 'cheated' by the system.

P75
15-06-2015, 10:58
It doesn't matter whether someone is in 1st of 1000th, if they have cut the track to gain a place on the board, then someone else has been 'cheated' by the system.
I agree 100%. Why should I not be able to compete on fair and even terms just because I can't do a top 20 time? I'm very disappointed that the LB won't be wiped and feel heavily discouraged from doing any more time trials because of it. If you drove a good legit laptime before the wipe, you can do it again after the wipe. I hope SMS will reconsider this decision and do a full wipe after the track limits are fixed. I don't think it's realistic for them to check every recorded lap, and like a previous poster wrote, the lap that replaced his lap on the top of the leaderboard was also done by cutting and was accepted. If that's true, where are we at then?

FA RACING 01
15-06-2015, 11:27
I'll vote for complete wipe of all Leader Boards too. ....... once new track limits have been set and implemented.

xautos
15-06-2015, 11:31
huh?

The off track limits need to be far far stricter. I think you are referring to the next lap being invalidated, to which it should stay, just tweaked depending on the track, last sector & last turn advantages continue to invalidate.

excessive off track excursions sure, lawnmowing, sure, but the accidental crossing the white lines, not so much. and besides the defition of what your using to consider gaining an advantage may not be an advantage at all in some cases where the draconian measures you are considering is not needed. for example if you go a little outside the white lines at a hairpin, and come out and roughly the same speed as if you were on track between the lines, you actually loose a few tenths a lap, you gained nothing, there was no advantage there. i think you should look at what should be considered draconian and what should be considered fair as far as racing room is concerned, people are not machines in the car.

as for your idea of keeping that next lap invalidation, consider that i accidentally cut the second to last corner on spa (what would be the final corner outside endurance racing), and i get that invalidation then i take the correct braking point into the last corner and have no problems coming out. thats a waste of drivers time, 2 minutes for another lap..

oh and another point, the cut track penalty needs looking at as well. you should just change the slow down of a driver who could cause an accident that slowly to a timed penalty on the end of the race instead. would you give a driver a penalty and limit their speed to 60 that suddenly on an oval? that would be insane.

EMW Simmo
15-06-2015, 12:20
I'll vote for complete wipe of all Leader Boards too. ....... once new track limits have been set and implemented.

Yeah gotta be done this way and asap...
Im sure the racers with clean laps would be more than happy to run there time again if it means moving up a certain amount of places....
Its no good sitting in 20th place knowing full well 10 racers above have blatently cheated, afterall people only see the times set and cannot watch the replay.
And why would anyone even bother from now on knowing whats going on...
I havent even raced on 50% of the tracks, because i know whether in multiplayer or community events/timetrial its a waste of time.

N0body Of The Goat
15-06-2015, 13:48
Cutters... Lance Armstrongs of the sim racing world.

NemethR
15-06-2015, 14:46
Cutters... Lance Armstrongs of the sim racing world.

I fail to see a point.

David Semperger
15-06-2015, 15:27
I fail to see a point.

Yeah, let's keep this thread as civil and constructive as possible. There's no need to insult people NOTG.

JDFSSS
15-06-2015, 15:55
Once they get it fixed and are sure there's no way to cut, then they need to completely wipe the boards. Otherwise, there will still be thousands of lap times on the leaderboards that aren't legit and most people won't bother. I know a lot of fast racers don't even bother with the leaderboards or take it serious because so many of the times aren't legit. If they choose to manually review times instead of a complete wipe they will only catch a small fraction of the cutters and the leaderboards will still be meaningless for a lot of racers.

N0body Of The Goat
15-06-2015, 16:10
Yeah, let's keep this thread as civil and constructive as possible. There's no need to insult people NOTG.

I find it insulting that some players think it is morally ok to cheat because the cheat detection system is not currently picking up their cheating.

Just because a professional athlete or cyclist decides to take enhancing drugs to improve their finishing position, it does not make it right to take them yourself, even if the technology to spot those drugs is not in place at the time.

David Semperger
15-06-2015, 16:23
I find it insulting that some players think it is morally ok to cheat because the cheat detection system is not currently picking up their cheating.

Just because a professional athlete or cyclist decides to take enhancing drugs to improve their finishing position, it does not make it right to take them yourself, even if the technology to spot those drugs is not in place at the time.

That's a false analogy. We (the cheaters as you and others lovingly call us) don't use any external help, only our knowledge of the cars and tracks, just like everyone else. However, since the only way to truly enforce rules in a public virtual event is by using the game we really don't have any choice other than use cuts if we want to be competitive, otherwise we could easily be giving up positions. Using any other line would include guesswork and there's no place in that in a competition.

The current system, whereby our laps can be invalidated after an event finishes, doesn't make things better, because the enforced track limits aren't clearly visible when we're driving. For example, I'm ~4.5 seconds behind Fabian (Schumi on the leaderboards) at Le Mans. I know for a fact that I could improve at least 2 seconds, but should I really try, when also know for a fact that Fabian will be disqualified? If I decide to try, how much am I allowed to improve? With any improvement I'd be risking disqualification. That's more like playing Blackjack than racing. I'm not even sure if my current lap is acceptable or not.

NemethR
15-06-2015, 16:30
Just because a professional athlete or cyclist decides to take enhancing drugs to improve their finishing position, it does not make it right to take them yourself, even if the technology to spot those drugs is not in place at the time.

And you really think he did?!
Sure, after winning the Tour 7 times (seven times), and not failing on any test, he must have taken drugs surely.
And still to this day NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY was able to prove he did.
This is just wich-hunting, and he got tired of it.

Ian Bell
15-06-2015, 16:32
And you really think he did?!
Sure, after winning the Tour 7 times (seven times), and not failing on any test, he must have taken drugs surely.
And still to this day NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY was able to prove he did.
This is just wich-hunting.

To be fair, he did admit to it all.

N0body Of The Goat
15-06-2015, 16:47
And you really think he did?!
Sure, after winning the Tour 7 times (seven times), and not failing on any test, he must have taken drugs surely.
And still to this day NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY was able to prove he did.
This is just wich-hunting, and he got tired of it.

I think you will find the "history books" now say he did not win a single Tour de France.

Because he cheated.

NemethR
15-06-2015, 16:57
I think you will find the "history books" now say he did not win a single Tour de France.
Because he cheated.

Well, he won 7 that is what is fact, history books are written by people, who execute the heroes. (as we all know)




To be fair, he did admit to it all.

How many people admitted things in history, that they did NOT do, just to finally find peace?!
My point is: NOBODY catched him on or shortly after the race for doping.

7 years after his last win... Who can prove anymore?! Who can prove, someone did not just upset him?!
I personally think he got sick and tired of trying to prove that he did not do something, nobody was able to PROVE.

Its not his shame, its the shame of the "officials", who do wich-hunting.
Truth is: He was crowned winner of the Tour de France 7 times. (And you don't win seven by coincidence.)

N0body Of The Goat
15-06-2015, 17:41
Ben Johnson reached the finish line of the Olympics 1988 100m final before anyone else.

However, he cheated.

Carl Lewis is officially the 1988 gold medal winner, with Linford Christie officially winning the silver, after Johnson was disqualified.

NemethR
15-06-2015, 18:04
Ben Johnson reached the finish line of the Olympics 1988 100m final before anyone else.

However, he cheated.

Carl Lewis is officially the 1988 gold medal winner, with Linford Christie officially winning the silver, after Johnson was disqualified.

IF you can prove, during or a few days after the race, that someone cheated, its fine.
If you can't do it for 7 years, then its another story.

Fabian Baumgarten
15-06-2015, 18:36
lol...let's keep to the topic...:D

arveena
15-06-2015, 18:58
That's a false analogy. We (the cheaters as you and others lovingly call us) don't use any external help, only our knowledge of the cars and tracks, just like everyone else. However, since the only way to truly enforce rules in a public virtual event is by using the game we really don't have any choice other than use cuts if we want to be competitive, otherwise we could easily be giving up positions. Using any other line would include guesswork and there's no place in that in a competition.

The current system, whereby our laps can be invalidated after an event finishes, doesn't make things better, because the enforced track limits aren't clearly visible when we're driving. For example, I'm ~4.5 seconds behind Fabian (Schumi on the leaderboards) at Le Mans. I know for a fact that I could improve at least 2 seconds, but should I really try, when also know for a fact that Fabian will be disqualified? If I decide to try, how much am I allowed to improve? With any improvement I'd be risking disqualification. That's more like playing Blackjack than racing. I'm not even sure if my current lap is acceptable or not.

Does not matter. I dont get why people think in Esport there is no sportmanship. Its a fact that cutting the track is an illegal instrument of improving your time why shouldn't it be in virtual Racing. Sorry everyone who cuts in a competition especially with Prices needs to be DQ'ed.
If its titled as Esport that championship is just a joke. If someone gets awarded prices for this as an "esport event" its even more of a joke. In a "normal" Esport title you would be disqualified and get a lifetime ban for that sort of statements.
I am not even bothering doing them also I can not understand why the Dev's are not doing anything against it. Pause the Championship until this is fixed at least the ones prices are involved.
There was a case in GTA finals in Germany where someone "cut" the corner in the last chicance at Nürburgring GP and by cutting i mean nothing close to what you guys are doing. He was sent home instantly+ could pay for his hotelroom.
Its just bad behaviour first of all. Nothing else.
You can cut away all day on the leaderboards if you want as the easily can be reset but on a championship with prices. Cmon no sort of sportmanship in you.
The actually fast guys are not even trying it so be happy with your top spots^^

David Semperger
15-06-2015, 19:32
The actually fast guys are not even trying it so be happy with your top spots^^

Keep dreaming. I know I'm not the fastest on the leaderboards by a long shot, but if you think that all cutters are hacks you're in for a rough awakening after the cuts will be fixed.

As for the eSports aspect, you are missing the point as well. I'm not saying that cuts are good or that they should stay. What I'm saying is that when the game objectively and clearly enforces rules, even ones that allow cutting, that's infinitely better for competition than rules where the racing line is hazy and not clearly distinguishable when you're driving. Both are bad solutions, but in the first case at least you know exactly how far you can push things before you get disqualified, while in the latter you don't. That's why I said that what we have at the moment resembles a game of luck. More specifically it reminds me of a racing equivalent of Blackjack. Be too conservative and others will overtake you, but push the limits too far and you'll get disqualified after the event. Perfectly hitting the devs' intended track limits involves a significant amount of luck at this point.

Fabian Baumgarten
15-06-2015, 22:10
Keep dreaming. I know I'm not the fastest on the leaderboards by a long shot, but if you think that all cutters are hacks you're in for a rough awakening after the cuts will be fixed.

As for the eSports aspect, you are missing the point as well. I'm not saying that cuts are good or that they should stay. What I'm saying is that when the game objectively and clearly enforces rules, even ones that allow cutting, that's infinitely better for competition than rules where the racing line is hazy and not clearly distinguishable when you're driving. Both are bad solutions, but in the first case at least you know exactly how far you can push things before you get disqualified, while in the latter you don't. That's why I said that what we have at the moment resembles a game of luck. More specifically it reminds me of a racing equivalent of Blackjack. Be too conservative and others will overtake you, but push the limits too far and you'll get disqualified after the event. Perfectly hitting the devs' intended track limits involves a significant amount of luck at this point.

AMEN!

just experienced both situations. i got my ass kicked at Zolder (Round 5) by all the SDL, BAM and aTTax guys, because i was to conservative with cutting (no times were deleted here even though big cutting was going on). and now i will be disqualified for round 7, Le Mans (as mentioned by Andy), because of cutting to much.

so, we need one clear direction now...
what is exactly allowed and what is not allowed?

maybe you should clear all points from the championchip, post clear rule and start over from round 8 onwards. so we will have a shorter, but maybe more competetive championchip at the end...

Andy Tudor
15-06-2015, 22:16
Absolutely the aim is to have solid, reliable 'automatic' track cutting detection so you don't even have to think about it. If the game tells you you've done wrong, it's because you've done wrong.

Currently though, things get through (either large or small) and this is where we have to fill in the gaps with manual checking temporarily. It's not rocket science nor necromancy to see that a player that is a full 8 seconds ahead of the entire pack should probably be investigated. And when you do, and see that they've blatantly found a way to take advantage of the system on a particular corner then it's an obvious candidate to remove that time.

For others it's not so cut and dry, but usually the over-arching razor by which candidates are selected is "Was a particular corner cut to deliberately game the system?" or was the player really truly on the edge of control and performing a super-risky manoeuvre? Ie.. if the ghost of a player quite obviously goes totally across a chicane then it's an illegal move. If however they clip the rumble strips of each turn on the chicane, getting two wheels off the ground yet also making all attempts to stay on track then it's likely to be allowed.

Some of these will be tricky to judge and there may be wild debate here but gradually we hope to improve the system such that the need for human determination is taken out of the equation completely so please bear with us and work with us to get us there in the time being.

David Semperger
15-06-2015, 22:43
Thanks for the reply Andy. So based on your and Ian's post it looks like the best thing to do in the mean time is to try to stay on the kerbs with two wheels at least if we want our lap to be valid, even if the game allows for more. That helps, because at least the edges of the kerbs are easily visible and we have audible cues for them as well. I'll stick to this rule until things improve.

Fabian Baumgarten
15-06-2015, 22:46
Absolutely the aim is to have solid, reliable 'automatic' track cutting detection so you don't even have to think about it. If the game tells you you've done wrong, it's because you've done wrong.

yes, absolutely true!



Currently though, things get through (either large or small) and this is where we have to fill in the gaps with manual checking temporarily. It's not rocket science nor necromancy to see that a player that is a full 8 seconds ahead of the entire pack should probably be investigated. And when you do, and see that they've blatantly found a way to take advantage of the system on a particular corner then it's an obvious candidate to remove that time.
i've nothing to complain about that!
as i wrote in post #165 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27013-Track-cutting-detection-fixes-coming-soon&p=990550&viewfull=1#post990550)
"I'm totally ok with deleting my time, because i don't sticked to the rules and went off the track at several places to gain time. you announced this before and i ignored it... "


For others it's not so cut and dry, but usually the over-arching razor by which candidates are selected is "Was a particular corner cut to deliberately game the system?" or was the player really truly on the edge of control and performing a super-risky manoeuvre? Ie.. if the ghost of a player quite obviously goes totally across a chicane then it's an illegal move. If however they clip the rumble strips of each turn on the chicane, getting two wheels off the ground yet also making all attempts to stay on track then it's likely to be allowed.

this is the point, where i can't understand why you pointed out my time as illegal and the time of F1-Massa is legal
i like to see the difference in my lap and in the "legal" time of F1-Massa. in my opinion, there is none. I hope, I'm not the only one who gets disqualified in this round, as many, many others cutted, too. and i hope you are also looking to the console times..



Some of these will be tricky to judge and there may be wild debate here but gradually we hope to improve the system such that the need for human determination is taken out of the equation completely so please bear with us and work with us to get us there in the time being.

i know it's hard to implement a rock solid cut detection system and i know, you are very busy at the moment with all kind of stuff. so don't get me wrong. i don't want to point a finger on anyone, i just felt a bit mistreated, when i saw the ghost of F1-Massa. the 8 seconds between me and him are not just because of cutting ;)

ok. i think i've said enough. We all know, you know the problem and you are on it. and as soon as you have a solution, you will come up with it...and I'm sure it's a good one ;)

DUST2DEATH
15-06-2015, 22:49
Andy,

Are you going to be checking the cuts at spot 100, 500, 1000? because if you arent checking every and all ghosts to maintain integrity at any position on the board, then this "judging" is just silly and entirely pointless.

This feels like it is PR pandering to avoid upsetting "someones".

David Semperger
15-06-2015, 22:51
I hope, I'm not the only one who gets disqualified in this round, as many, many others cutted, too.

I'm fairly sure I'll be disqualified as well, as I cut the the chicanes on the Mulsanne straight aggressively and on my fastest lap I don't think my tires always remained in contact with the kerbs in the first chicane.

For the record I'd like to say though that whatever happens, I think you are clearly the winner on the PC Fabian. I saw your ghost and did enough laps at Le Mans to know how much of an effort it is to put together a lap like you did, cuts or no cuts. Kudos my man. :)


Andy,

Are you going to be checking the cuts at spot 100, 500, 1000? because if you arent checking every and all ghosts to maintain integrity at any position on the board, then this "judging" is just silly and entirely pointless.

This feels like it is PR pandering to avoid upsetting "someones".

It's a stopgap measure until the in-game cut detection is improved. I think the goal currently is to make sure the Championship leaderboards remain as clean as possible. Eventually we'll probably have full leaderboard wipes, so that people further down will have a chance to compete cleanly as well.

arveena
16-06-2015, 02:40
WoW the most embarrassing thing about the whole topic is the attitude of the cutters. Like they are doing nothing wrong. I guess you can call that suarez syndrome. I dont care if you are fast or not. Its just no sportsmanship and trying to explain it does not make it better. I could clearly go your pace but that does not matter I just dont want to cheat and you are cheating. There is a reason why the spread is so massive at the top cause all the fast guys I know are not putting a single lap in since round 1. I mean are you really thinking you are so much faster than the rest and only 10 people are competetive. Just watch the leaderboards of other games you eould be fighting for hundreds not seconds if someone would care about that so called championship.
You are just arrogant.
I think doing this championship to the end will without proper fixes hurt the games competetive scene if there is one at all. I dont know if this an aim of the devs. But in my opinion this game could be an amazing competetive racing game but if this keeps on going no big "team" and no good driver will have interest in competing at all.
I mean the rules are clear keep two wheels in the white line and the lap is clean. Everything else is invalid and every abusing and glitching like driving into pits or through walls should result in a ban. It just hurts the community and the game in my opinion

Fabian Baumgarten
16-06-2015, 06:41
WoW the most embarrassing thing about the whole topic is the attitude of the cutters. Like they are doing nothing wrong. I guess you can call that suarez syndrome. I dont care if you are fast or not. Its just no sportsmanship and trying to explain it does not make it better.
no one is doing this...
again: "I'm totally ok with deleting my time, because i don't sticked to the rules and went off the track at several places to gain time. they announced this before and i ignored it... "
so, i've done wrong and i will get punished for this! that's ok!

i just dont want to be THE ONE pointed out as THE CUTTER. many, many others did too and with regard to fairness they should be disqualified, too. I'm just asking for fairness. but we will see, when points are given for round 7. so for now i'm just relaxing and waiting to see what SMS had done, or will do...

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 06:46
WoW the most embarrassing thing about the whole topic is the attitude of the cutters. Like they are doing nothing wrong.

I can't speak for others, so please don't generalize about a whole group based on what a few people say, but my attitude is this: I don't like cutting, I don't think it's good for the competition (for the reasons you've said) and I don't think that it should be allowed. On the other hand, currently we don't have any objective track limit rules, just a vague outline until the in-game cut detection is improved. That doesn't change the goal of the competition however, which is to push the limits as far as we can. I refuse to hold back and do any less than that. If you don't use every tool that's available to you then you aren't racing anymore.


I guess you can call that suarez syndrome.

A Google search didn't turn up any medical conditions with that name, so would you please clarify that?


I dont care if you are fast or not. Its just no sportsmanship and trying to explain it does not make it better.

This is where we completely disagree. I always adhere to the current rules of the competition to the best of my ability. I'm not using external aids or timing glitches, just my knowledge of the cars and tracks. Cutting still requires driving on the limit and keeping the car on the fastest line. Really, your grudge shouldn't be with the cutters, but with the rules. Again, racing is using the rules and limits to their full extent. If you think the result is unsportsmanlike behavior then you either don't have the same definition for racing as I do or you have a problem with the rules.


I could clearly go your pace but that does not matter

Sure it does. That's the only thing that matters in competitions like this. More laps and less words please. :)


I just dont want to cheat and you are cheating. There is a reason why the spread is so massive at the top cause all the fast guys I know are not putting a single lap in since round 1.

If they are truly better drivers then if they use the same line they'll beat me, no matter what that line may be. Essentially what you are saying is that they don't like the rules and so they choose not to compete. That's fine, but I can't do anything about that.


I mean are you really thinking you are so much faster than the rest and only 10 people are competetive. Just watch the leaderboards of other games you eould be fighting for hundreds not seconds if someone would care about that so called championship.

I know that, I spent some time in hotlap competitions in R3E for example. I don't have any problems admitting that there are faster drivers than me, in fact I did that multiple times here already because I know it to be true. However, when my competitors decide to give up before they even start that's not my problem and I won't shed a single tear for them.


You are just arrogant.

Maybe, but at least I'm not idly standing by, not racing while talking big about my racing prowess and insulting my competition.


I think doing this championship to the end will without proper fixes hurt the games competetive scene if there is one at all. I dont know if this an aim of the devs. But in my opinion this game could be an amazing competetive racing game but if this keeps on going no big "team" and no good driver will have interest in competing at all.

There is a competitive scene, but you are right, fixes are needed and the devs agree (just read Andy's post above). In an ideal situation the upcoming tracks will be prioritized.

As for the teams who race, I think the guys in SDL, BAM and GT-Club are plenty good. I'd like to mention Kevin Leaune (SDL_Sonik) specifically, as I don't think they come any more legit than him: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?30249-SDL-SoniK-Genius-or-the-ranch-hand-from-hades&p=976338&viewfull=1#post976338

From what I've seen so far most good drivers stay away not because of the rules, but because when they do what they're supposed to do, race to the full extent of the rules, they are publicly shamed and personally attacked by the community. I guess that's one way of winning competitions, but sportsmanship it ain't.

gtz r0sh1
16-06-2015, 13:20
A racedriver always look for the fastest line on or off track that is allowed for him !!!!!

The Game allowes me to fly over the chicanes in Zolder,so i do it. If Vettel or Hamilton could sit ON the cars to see better and be faster THEY WOULD DO IT.

If SMS fix their totally broken game i thinking about driving normal. And really i hope that so many people dont want to drive this farther cause of the cutters. Its the only way for me to fuck up SMS to get more frustated Gamers THAT WANT A FULL FUNCTIONAL GAME !!!!! Nothing is tested in the Game about 3 years or of any user. They was permitted to take a look at the Builds but nobody has the balls to say "NO , NOT in this WAY"


The whole Tuning is broken,the physics are broken ,the Tire model is totally garbage and for example a the weight balance in the setup is also broken . REAR is FRONT . SLS for example 52/48 ,in the Setups 52% ,but to the left the values decreases LOL . If you change it to the right the weight is in the Front not as it shown in the Rear.

HOW, REALLY HOOOOOW , can this not be seen in 3 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years with testers. i know this is a major bug since day 1 . its a shame for the whole Community

Umer Ahmad
16-06-2015, 13:26
CALM DOWN!!!!!!! LOL

gtz r0sh1
16-06-2015, 13:36
very professional as i can feel it the whole time ;o)

but, what should i expect from Communitytesters. I see and feel it the whole day in the Game. That also must be the reason for the delay of the x1 patch. They testing so much that the game gone broken after to much testing. how many people work for SMS, 20 ? But,the bags are full of money ;o)

NemethR
16-06-2015, 14:01
On the other hand, currently we don't have any objective track limit rules, just a vague outline until the in-game cut detection is improved.

What is not clear about two wheels inside the white line?!

N0body Of The Goat
16-06-2015, 14:08
Absolutely the aim is to have solid, reliable 'automatic' track cutting detection so you don't even have to think about it. If the game tells you you've done wrong, it's because you've done wrong.

Currently though, things get through (either large or small) and this is where we have to fill in the gaps with manual checking temporarily. It's not rocket science nor necromancy to see that a player that is a full 8 seconds ahead of the entire pack should probably be investigated. And when you do, and see that they've blatantly found a way to take advantage of the system on a particular corner then it's an obvious candidate to remove that time.

For others it's not so cut and dry, but usually the over-arching razor by which candidates are selected is "Was a particular corner cut to deliberately game the system?" or was the player really truly on the edge of control and performing a super-risky manoeuvre? Ie.. if the ghost of a player quite obviously goes totally across a chicane then it's an illegal move. If however they clip the rumble strips of each turn on the chicane, getting two wheels off the ground yet also making all attempts to stay on track then it's likely to be allowed.

Some of these will be tricky to judge and there may be wild debate here but gradually we hope to improve the system such that the need for human determination is taken out of the equation completely so please bear with us and work with us to get us there in the time being.

The problem is, Andy, that "clever" cutters will cut just enough to get a good rank through their overall laptime without standing out like a sore thumb with a time say 8 seconds faster than Joni Varis and other non-cutting "aliens."

Trying to review all posted Community Event times is going to be a very time consuming process, one which as far as I can make make out, we cannot currently help with for any event that is closed (because we can only select ghosts for currently active events as far as I'm aware). Now if SMS opened ghosts to all events current and past, you could possibly get some help in sorting out who is deemed to be gaining an unfair advantage, where we could somehow post screenshots to a "no chat" thread of what we consider unsportsperson-like cutting.

However, the issue here goes further than that, I suspect. I cannot believe that I am the only one who did not fully commit to each and every event, because I knew full well that as things stood (going back to development events), there would be a mass of drivers exploiting any loophole they could find. Their rational confuses the heck out of me, because here they are as racing car fans, driving lines through corners that they know damn well would not be allowed to stand by their racing heroes in real life.

Publicenemy
16-06-2015, 14:15
unfair advantage ? ^^

if the game allows to cut the track anybody SHOULD cut the track. They have to fix the broken game,thats all ;o)

Im 11th at Brand Hatch , NO cuts @ all, i was 14th on Zolder with Cuts. What a surprise ^^

The leaderboards look exactly the same people in front eitherway with cuts or without. learn to drive thats the best what you can do if you see you are 8 seconds behind the first .If you say these as the second OK. but where you are on place 1000 ,in a game is played by 1001 ? LOL

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 14:59
What is not clear about two wheels inside the white line?!

That would be a perfectly clear rule, but it's not in effect. Like Andy said, F1-Masa's lap was acceptable, even though he clearly went beyond the white lines. Conclusion? The white line isn't always considered to be the limit of the track. Going by Andy's post it seems to me that the actual limit that they are looking at is whether two of our wheels remained on the kerbs. Since this isn't enforced by the game it's not an objective rule though and it can also be kinda vague, because in some corners it's not a 100% clear what's part of the kerbing and what isn't. Still it's better than not having any guidelines, so this is what I'll be sticking to from now on.


However, the issue here goes further than that, I suspect. I cannot believe that I am the only one who did not fully commit to each and every event, because I knew full well that as things stood (going back to development events), there would be a mass of drivers exploiting any loophole they could find. Their rational confuses the heck out of me, because here they are as racing car fans, driving lines through corners that they know damn well would not be allowed to stand by their racing heroes in real life.

I think the issue is that some people think that loopholes aren't exploited in real racing the moment they are found. Think back to some of the tricks teams used in F1, even just in the past few years. I have very little doubt that some of our heroes also won with cars that wouldn't necessarily have stood up to the scrutiny of a full and detailed FIA inspection. I'd bet that if you'd ask the drivers, who had to know about these, how much they protested against them internally almost every one of them would say that they didn't. It's also worth considering that drivers aren't against using loopholes themselves. Schumacher for example won the 1998 British Grand Prix by entering the pits on the last lap, this way avoiding the stop-and-go penalty he received.

Not that any of this matters, we aren't racing by FIA rules as they have no jurisdiction here. Therefore citing real life rules as something we should hold ourselves to is a non-sequitur. However, even using those rules as an example I'd feel perfectly fine with using whatever tools I've been given in an event, since that's what every driver i know of ever did.

NemethR
16-06-2015, 15:42
That would be a perfectly clear rule, but it's not in effect. Like Andy said, F1-Masa's lap was acceptable, even though he clearly went beyond the white lines. Conclusion? The white line isn't always considered to be the limit of the track. Going by Andy's post it seems to me that the actual limit that they are looking at is whether two of our wheels remained on the kerbs. Since this isn't enforced by the game it's not an objective rule though and it can also be kinda vague, because in some corners it's not a 100% clear what's part of the kerbing and what isn't. Still it's better than not having any guidelines, so this is what I'll be sticking to from now on.

Just because there are people who would kill others for 10Euro, does not mean you need to do that.
You can of course, but then you become a murderer.

Just like here, you must NOT cut the track, you can, but then you become an unsportsman like cheater.

Publicenemy
16-06-2015, 15:56
murdering is not allowed. you get jailed

cutting is actually allowed. you dont get a bann or your time will be deleted. SMS have to restart ALL timetrials after fixing the major issues with the penaltysystem. NOT delete some times. All the times are LEGIT as the game called it LEGIT POINT


Thats a big big difference.

unsportsman like is not uploading a ghost or replay. I cant say to you unsportsmen if you CAN do the same things i can !

NemethR
16-06-2015, 16:22
I can only say:

I'll show you true Skill! :D
No, tis not me driving, I found it in another thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=143&v=DTzQ-2DLoBg

Joni Varis
16-06-2015, 16:29
LOL.

Really not much i can say about it anymore :hopelessness:

Publicenemy
16-06-2015, 16:38
@ NemethR

thats ridicolous,really. I can only speak for myself but this is not ok for me cause he is really more OFF the track. Zolder as an example ,the only way you could "cut" was over the curbs. 2nd chicane ,in my opinion, the outside was 2 wheels on the track,the other in the sand ^^.

youz have to ask yourself what is ok for you or not. The only limit if you timetrial is the Game itself ! If you drivin a whole season with m8 on a platform ,i think we all know,were drivin clean and legit as it should be !
But if you timetrial you limited yourself if you think "im drivin clean and legit" cause the only really limit IS AND WAS the game.

NemethR
16-06-2015, 16:41
@ NemethR

thats ridicolous,really. I can only speak for myself but this is not ok for me cause he is really more OFF the track. Zolder as an example ,the only way you could "cut" was over the curbs. 2nd chicane ,in my opinion, the outside was 2 wheels on the track,the other in the sand ^^.

youz have to ask yourself what is ok for you or not. The only limit if you timetrial is the Game itself ! If you drivin a whole season with m8 on a platform ,i think we all know,were drivin clean and legit as it should be !
But if you timetrial you limited yourself if you think "im drivin clean and legit" cause the only really limit IS AND WAS the game.

As I wrote, its nto me driving, I ALWAYS try to drive as clean as possible.

P75
16-06-2015, 16:42
I can only say:

I'll show you true Skill! :D
No, tis not me driving, I found it in another thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=143&v=DTzQ-2DLoBg

Don't know whether to laugh or cry to be honest. :confused:

arveena
16-06-2015, 17:24
This Thread is going out of hands.

Just some simple Facts and than i will go away from this:

-The cutters know that they are doing something wrong. But they are still doing it. Thats the same argument every doped cyclist had "Everyone is doing it. I needed to do it to stay competetive". It is just wrong and I hope they will get punished for it not just by deleting their laptimes as they are repeater and they were told that it is against the rules so they need to take the consequenses. But i doubt it will happen as some of them put money into this game.
- Another fact is I dont need to prove anyone how fast I am. I wont compete in something that is against all my ideals. I actually have some things to show of in competetive Racing and Simracing and I dont want to be mocked by people who are cheating. Even if they are faster they are not the people I want to race with. Even if I could learn something from them besides cutting. Also I am doing my laps dont worry I love the game just the competetive TT are a joke at the Moment

Also saying that staying into the white lines is not a clear rule. Are you saying me just because you can cut the rule itself isnt there. If that was the case why did no one cut the track in 24h of lemans like you did. They can also do it and ignore what the Stewards say (in our case the Devs). Because they will get punished and will get destroyed by the media. Your punishment as a repater wont come i guess with you beeing a WMD member but you need to endure our mocking and if this game will ever go a competetive road you will also endure that everyone knows you are a cheater. You will never get any respect for your times at least from me and all the other guys I know who are into competetive Sim Racing

mister dog
16-06-2015, 17:39
OP that posted the video did it especially to show off how much you can cut.

WARDOGZ.UK
16-06-2015, 18:22
At the end of the day PCars will be regarded as a joke as far as the competitions / time trials etc are concerned, no-one will take any of the times or drivers serious, most of us won't even participate because cheating is too prevalent and indeed seemingly accepted by the devs, their cries of 'we will fix it...sort of, cause we don't wanna upset the cheaters either and maybe lose income' quite frankly stinks, perhaps you should have just stuck to making arcade racing games instead.
Pity, 'cause this game shows a lot of potential :(

saidur9
16-06-2015, 20:09
Hey there,

Just a note that I'll be discussing leaderboards further with the online team on Monday.

SMS-R Driver Network Championship rounds will not be reset - they're only available for a limited time and all ghosts (where possible) are reviewed before points are allocated to ensure they are not impossible, fraudulent, nor suspicious. schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances.

Competition rounds will not be reset - again the top entries are reviewed manually to ensure that only credible players win these. Some of the winners from the Bavarian Legend competition were not the players in the top spot for example ;) We understand that it's annoying to see players at the top of the leaderboard who may have times not befitting of 'professional conduct' and as improvements to the Track Cutting system arrive you'll see this less and less until we hopefully reach a wholly robust system. Any future competition rounds will of course benefit these improvements.

For all other leaderboards I'll check with the online team whether individual wipes can occur or whether it would be game-wide. In either case though, wipes are bad since all the legitimate times players have been hard at work since launch attaining would be removed. This would have a negative effect on the community as they'd never bother to post new ones in fear that they might be wiped once again in the future. So the aim would be to fully review all track leaderboards and wipe individual entries instead. This is fairly easy on PC and you may have noticed we've been doing this already with some of the 20 sec times that used to be on some of the leaderboards. Azure Circuit and Azure Coast are great examples of ones that are on the list to be deleted for example.

So please know that checks are being done and cheaters dealt with, improvements are coming, and options are being looked at to ensure fairness amongst all competitors.
You mention the Bavarian Legend event, did the big corner cutting times get the prizes then? I never got contacted even though I have tried to make contact as I'm interested why I'm not the winner. Only people ahead of me on PC leaderboard had big cuts. I followed the rules given and seem to have been penalised?

It is quite easy to see for a number of fast cutting times just by checking the sector times, places where people are cutting have impossible sector times and places where not, more realistic sector times. Having a quick look at the ghost at the usual cutting places can confirm suspicion quickly. Surprised how the SMS-R Championship has been run in a way where rules are stated but then more often than not rewarded people who didn't follow them and penalising people who did. Very demotivating which leads to a lot of the top drivers not participating. For example, being told to follow rules, one expecting 50 points and ends up getting 0 is not fair in my opinion.

Don't know how feasible it is to check all leaderboards and delete them individually given there probably is over million in entries to keep it fair throughout when only checking for top 20 has resulted in big oversights regarding corner cutting. Would prefer a wipe even though I have some decent times on leaderboard as I think it will have a positive effect on community given people will go into events knowing that times have been done with a better penalty system, not facing doubt they are up against corner cutting times with a leaderboard that may be wiped one day due to how unfair the leaderboard may be at time like now.

beetes_juice
16-06-2015, 20:28
Don't know whether to laugh or cry to be honest. :confused:

Guy posted that as a joke BTW. Thread is kinda funny.

Roger Prynne
16-06-2015, 21:39
Cut track fixes will be in the next patch....

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31613-Le-Mans-quot-World-Record-quot&p=995905&viewfull=1#post995905

Joni Varis
17-06-2015, 03:28
If im totally honest, not having high hopes for the "fix" after reading Andy:s post few days ago. Track limits, if i undertand it corretly will still be far too lenient = cutfest bandwagon will still keep going strong.

danpinho
17-06-2015, 03:52
This Thread is going out of hands.

Just some simple Facts and than i will go away from this:

-The cutters know that they are doing something wrong. But they are still doing it. Thats the same argument every doped cyclist had "Everyone is doing it. I needed to do it to stay competetive". It is just wrong and I hope they will get punished for it not just by deleting their laptimes as they are repeater and they were told that it is against the rules so they need to take the consequenses. But i doubt it will happen as some of them put money into this game.
- Another fact is I dont need to prove anyone how fast I am. I wont compete in something that is against all my ideals. I actually have some things to show of in competetive Racing and Simracing and I dont want to be mocked by people who are cheating. Even if they are faster they are not the people I want to race with. Even if I could learn something from them besides cutting. Also I am doing my laps dont worry I love the game just the competetive TT are a joke at the Moment

Also saying that staying into the white lines is not a clear rule. Are you saying me just because you can cut the rule itself isnt there. If that was the case why did no one cut the track in 24h of lemans like you did. They can also do it and ignore what the Stewards say (in our case the Devs). Because they will get punished and will get destroyed by the media. Your punishment as a repater wont come i guess with you beeing a WMD member but you need to endure our mocking and if this game will ever go a competetive road you will also endure that everyone knows you are a cheater. You will never get any respect for your times at least from me and all the other guys I know who are into competetive Sim Racing

Every word that I was going to say… Thank you and its good to know we have honest people around here.
There are some "fast" drivers here that I really dislike already.

Charles Gillen
17-06-2015, 07:40
There's another reason for all the pissing and moaning...Me personally, I know I'm not going to be in the top 10 or top 100. Or even sometimes the top 500. But I use the TT as a gauge as to how my driving has improved or suffered over time. If I set a time at say 239th place, how am I to know if my lap is equal to anyone elses lap? And if there are 100 track cutters then my lap is at 139. But theres no way to tell. Some of what appears to be the games top drivers are here freely admitting to cheating in an attempt to be competitive. Those are just the ones who will say so. How many are secretly hoping that this just all goes away and no one ever finds out about those laps. Hell, lots of them hid their replays. Wonder why?

I dont think I'm ever gonna win a new wheel or any prize. Thats not why I do TTS. But it would be nice to know for sure where my laps "really" stack up against the so called aliens.

Charles

P75
17-06-2015, 08:22
Guy posted that as a joke BTW. Thread is kinda funny.

I realize that of course, it's quite obvious. The video IS funny I agree. I also had a good laugh watching it, but it's also a perfect display of how bad the situation is and how far we probably are from getting it fixed, could be several months for all we know, 1.4 didn't do much apparently.

The leaderboard was a major selling point for me, not because I have any illusion that I will be at the top even if the track limits worked, but because it motivates me and is a game in itself to progress as far as I can. If people ahead of me drove a sloppy lap but cut a corner or two to get ahead of me, that would make it all pointless. I'm not prepared to cheat, just to get some competition, that's just not who I am or who I want to be.

NemethR
17-06-2015, 08:45
Cut track fixes will be in the next patch....

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31613-Le-Mans-quot-World-Record-quot&p=995905&viewfull=1#post995905

Nice to hear that....


but exactly how will it be regulated?!

Fist of all I think there needs to be 2 different settings.
One for Time trial / community events / qualifying, and another for Races.

Time Trial / Community events / Quali should allow not a single wheel to cross the white line, or the curbs. (This would be the only fair way for all)
At the moment you allow 2 wheels over the white line, shicanes will be cut again with 3/4 of the car way off track. This is just bad.

Race obviously should be more felxible, as if someone gets bumped, or wants to avoid a collision, should not be penaltized.
But repeated cutting at the same place should give a penalty. Like:
1st cut: Warning
2nd cut: Warning
3rd cut: Final Warning
4th cut: 5 sec slowdown
5th cut: Drive through
6th cut: Stop and go
7th cut: Stop and go +10 sec
8th cut: Stop and go + 30 sec
9th cut: Stop and go + 1 min
10th cut: DQ

P75
17-06-2015, 09:10
Nice to hear that....

Yep, sounds good. We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out, but sure does give me some hope. :)

David Semperger
17-06-2015, 09:30
Just because there are people who would kill others for 10Euro, does not mean you need to do that.
You can of course, but then you become a murderer.

Another false analogy. Life isn't about murdering people, but racing is about using the fastest allowed line. If you aren't doing that your aren't racing.


Just like here, you must NOT cut the track, you can, but then you become an unsportsman like cheater.

Must not? Why? The current rules allow it to some extent. I don't see why you and other keep insulting us, just because you don't like the rules. You are essentially saying that if I don't follow your rules you'll call me a cheater. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but A) You don't make the rules here and B) I'm not here to please you.

I also don't appreciate being compared to a murderer. If you think cutting is analogous to a murder you have problems I really can't help you with.


The cutters know that they are doing something wrong. But they are still doing it.

Again, you only show that you don't understand our position at all. I know that what I'm doing *would be* wrong in a real event, but not here. That doesn't mean however that I like the current rules we have. So no, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but I do think the rules are wrong.


Thats the same argument every doped cyclist had "Everyone is doing it. I needed to do it to stay competetive".

It's not the same at all. In our case doping (cutting) is allowed to a certain extent. Doping is also an external help, while cutting isn't.


It is just wrong and I hope they will get punished for it not just by deleting their laptimes as they are repeater and they were told that it is against the rules so they need to take the consequenses. But i doubt it will happen as some of them put money into this game.

I don't think whether one is a WMD member will factor into the devs' decisions on this matter. Not that it matters anyway, because all of us want the rules to be changed.


Another fact is I dont need to prove anyone how fast I am. I wont compete in something that is against all my ideals.

And that's fine, but there's no need to keep insulting people who's ideals doesn't exactly line up with yours.


Also saying that staying into the white lines is not a clear rule. Are you saying me just because you can cut the rule itself isnt there.

That's exactly what I'm saying. if I can cut a corner to a certain degree and not get punished for it, then by definition there's no rule against cutting that corner in that way.


If that was the case why did no one cut the track in 24h of lemans like you did. They can also do it and ignore what the Stewards say (in our case the Devs). Because they will get punished and will get destroyed by the media.

You answered your own question. They didn't cut corners, because their rules are different than ours and they would have been punished for any amount of cutting.


Your punishment as a repater wont come i guess with you beeing a WMD member

My punishment won't come, because I'm adhering to the rules to the best of my ability, whatever those rules may be. I'm not doing anything that's not allowed. If and when I do I'll happily accept any punishment the devs deem necessary.


but you need to endure our mocking and if this game will ever go a competetive road you will also endure that everyone knows you are a cheater. You will never get any respect for your times at least from me and all the other guys I know who are into competetive Sim Racing

Let me be very clear. You are mocking me because I dare not adhere to your personal values, for sticking to the rules of the game instead of yours. If you want to continue then by all means do, but know that I don't have any respect, nor do I wish for the respect of people who bully others for thinking differently than them, especially when we did nothing wrong.


cheating is too prevalent and indeed seemingly accepted by the devs

Read Andy's post again. It's not accepted and the rules will get stricter as the game's cut detection improves.


their cries of 'we will fix it...sort of, cause we don't wanna upset the cheaters either and maybe lose income' quite frankly stinks

They wouldn't upset anyone, we all want the same thing, an improved cut detection. We only differ in what lines we'll use in the mean time.


If im totally honest, not having high hopes for the "fix" after reading Andy:s post few days ago. Track limits, if i undertand it corretly will still be far too lenient = cutfest bandwagon will still keep going strong.

The reason is that we don't have separate rules for the Time Trials and Races and the devs don't want to put TTs above Races. By strictly using the white lines as the limit people could easily get penalties in races if they pushed outside the track, especially in tight chicanes. It's not me saying this either, Doug mentioned it (WMD only link): http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?12424-Post-wrong-or-overly-strict-cut-track-detection-reports-here!&p=901333&viewfull=1#post901333

Ideally I do think we should have separate rules for the two modes, but that may not happen for a while, if at all.

NemethR
17-06-2015, 09:50
...but racing is about using the fastest allowed line. If you aren't doing that your aren't racing.

I do that, but I do not cheat, as you do.
I use the fastest allowed line on a racetrack.




If I don't follow your rules you'll call me a cheater.

I have no rules, the FIA, and other similar organisations made the rules for motorport, and those are to be followed.




I also don't appreciate being compared to a murderer. If you think cutting is analogous to a murder you have problems I really can't help you with.


Sure it is. Both are against the rules.
So if you don't like to be called a cheater, well, don't cheat maybe?!

David Semperger
17-06-2015, 10:02
I use the fastest allowed line on a racetrack.

Cutting is allowed to a certain extent. You do not cut. Therefore you do not use the fastest allowed line.


I have no rules, the FIA, and other similar organisations made the rules for motorport, and those are to be followed.

They are, but not here. Send a letter to the FIA, asking then what they think about people cutting in pCARS. Please post their response here, it could be educational.


Sure it is. Both are against the rules.

I think I see the problem here. You are using rules as a general term, not specifying which set of rules you mean. Cutting may be against FIA rules, but that's completely irrelevant. Their rules also include flags and a safety car, just to mention two things I can think of that we don't have either. Please, mention these in your letter to them as well. I'm sure they'll be furious.

Meanwhile, cutting is allowed to some extent in pCARS (for now at least), meaning that the white line isn't the true track limit. This is undisputable fact.


So if you don't like to be called a cheater, well, don't cheat maybe?!

I'm fine with being called a cheater when I cheat. I have a problem with it when I don't however, especially when the people who call me that have no reason to do so other than me not following the rules they arbitrarily chosen for themselves, ones that aren't in effect here. Well adjusted people don't do that, bullies do.

NemethR
17-06-2015, 10:22
Cutting is allowed to some extent in pCARS (for now at least), meaning that the white line isn't the true track limit. This is undisputable fact.

Okay, please show me, where it does explicitly say, you are allowed to cut the tracks to death.
As long as you can't show me, I will stick with the FIA rules. WHY? Because it was stated multiple times, that the game aims to be as close to the real regulations/homologisations/physics as possible.




I'm fine with being called a cheater when I cheat. I have a problem with it when I don't however, especially when the people who call me that have no reason to do so other than me not following the rules they arbitrarily chosen for themselves, ones that aren't in effect here.


Since cutting a racetrack is considered cheating, I do not see your point.

David Semperger
17-06-2015, 10:35
Okay, please show me, where it does explicitly say, you are allowed to cut the tracks to death.

Andy on the lap times in the latest SMS-R event at Le Mans:


schumi170388's time on PC for example will not be allowed due to illegal track cutting whilst F1-Masa's is within acceptable tolerances.

Now watch F1-Masa's ghost and tell me if you think it adheres to FIA rules.


it was stated multiple times, that the game aims to be as close to the real regulations/homologisations/physics as possible.

The key part of that sentence is "aims to be". As far as the track limits are concerned we aren't quite there yet, but the aim is that we eventually will be.


Since cutting a racetrack is considered cheating, I do not see your point.

Cheating is when you circumvent the rules. The rules we have now allow cutting to a certain extent, therefore it's not cheating to do so.

NemethR
17-06-2015, 10:57
Andy on the lap times in the latest SMS-R event at Le Mans:
So did he say, you are allowed to cut every single corner on every racetrack as you wish?!
No he didn't.


... Cheating is when you circumvent the rules. The rules we have now allow cutting to a certain extent, therefore it's not cheating to do so.
They don't. Just because you can, does not mean you must, or that it is allowed.
I *CAN* steal your money, but that does not mean I must, or that I will do so, nor that I am allowed to do so.
In motorsport everything is regulated, and basicly everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden.

So back to the point, you are not allowed to cut the track, you can do it, but that is against the rules, and that is cheating.

David Semperger
17-06-2015, 11:29
So did he say, you are allowed to cut every single corner on every racetrack as you wish?!
No he didn't.

Andy said F1-Masa's lap was within acceptable tolerance, meaning that it was within the rules. Now go and actually watch his lap, because I'm sure you didn't, and then you'll see what's allowed by the current rules. Spoiler alert: it's cutting.


I *CAN* steal your money, but that does not mean I must, or that I will do so, nor that I am allowed to do so.

If you steal my money I can report you and you'll likely get punished, arrested. If I cut as much as it's allowed you can't do the same. Another false analogy.


In motorsport everything is regulated, and basicly everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden.

Tell that to the racing teams who came up with things like the F-duct or double diffusers when they weren't explicitly allowed. The rules may have changed later as a result, but the teams weren't punished IIRC.


So back to the point, you are not allowed to cut the track, you can do it, but that is against the rules, and that is cheating.

I showed you multiple time how wrong you are about this, but you keep ignoring what I say. I'll do that same from now on, because this isn't a discussion anymore, it's people trying to force their ideology on others. If you want to follow the stricter FIA rules even when they aren't enforced here that's your personal choice, but don't try to twist the hand of others. Based on the fact that you keep calling me a cheater you must feel a moral superiority for sticking to FIA rules, but I'd like to point out that throughout this discussion it wasn't me who kept insulting you and also that you won't get points for moral victories on any race track, real or otherwise. Have a nice day.