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Kitt
22-05-2015, 21:03
Can anyone comfirm that tyre's wear out and loose grip over time.Have yet to feel like the tyres are wearing out.

Machinist90
22-05-2015, 21:05
haven't really felt it either but then again most career races I've done had only max 10 laps

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:07
Can anyone comfirm that tyre's wear out and loose grip over time.Have yet to feel like the tyres are wearing out.

They do yes. We have other threads on this guys.

JDFSSS
22-05-2015, 21:19
They do yes. We have other threads on this guys.

but they don't wear out at the correct rate. kind of surprised you left this little piece of information out.

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:21
but they don't wear out at the correct rate. kind of surprised you left this little piece of information out.

OK, they don't wear out at the correct rate. There, I added it.

onimoD
22-05-2015, 21:25
OK, they don't wear out at the correct rate. There, I added it.

Lol - I think someone's a few beers into the evening.

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:29
Lol - I think someone's a few beers into the evening.

Nope, it's been like this all day.

Sanuck
22-05-2015, 21:30
Maybe he could write us a manual with what the f..... all the settings mean while he`s pissed.
Could not be worse than we got now. Nothing !
S

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:31
I assure you I'm on a two week detox.

I felt that ' but they don't wear out at the correct rate ', may have lacked a bit of detail is all.

Bealdor
22-05-2015, 21:37
but they don't wear out at the correct rate. kind of surprised you left this little piece of information out.

OK to calm this discussion down a bit: Exactly that is tested extensively right now at the WMD forums on different cars and tracks. So WMD and SMS are on it to balance the tire wear on all cars and tires.

wraithsrike
22-05-2015, 21:37
How do they not wear at the correct rate, mine appear to be wearing fine.

Just need my little wear icon now :-)

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:39
How do they not wear at the correct rate, mine appear to be wearing fine.

Just need my little wear icon now :-)

Agreed on the wear icon. We should add that.

Kitt
22-05-2015, 21:40
Did do a search,but the threads I looked at were either yes there is tyre wear or no there isn't.So thought I would ask to get a conclusive answer :)

Machinist90
22-05-2015, 21:42
OK to calm this discussion down a bit: Exactly that is tested extensively right now at the WMD forums on different cars and tracks. So WMD and SMS are on it to balance the tire wear on all cars and tires.

AI included or just our own car for the moment?

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:42
Did do a search,but the threads I looked at were either yes there is tyre wear or no there isn't.So thought I would ask to get a conclusive answer :)

There most certainly is yes. It's also fully dynamic and based on the amount of scrub, slip and downforce as well as being varied per tyre type.

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 21:43
AI included or just our own car for the moment?

AI run a simplified tyre model. If they didn't we'd run 2 cars max.

Bealdor
22-05-2015, 21:43
Did do a search,but the threads I looked at were either yes there is tyre wear or no there isn't.So thought I would ask to get a conclusive answer :)

Yes it definitely works. Tom Shane's profiler app can proof this. How much the tires wear and how slippery they get is being finetuned literally right now.

Bealdor
22-05-2015, 21:46
AI included or just our own car for the moment?

AI should have tire wear too but it either doesn't work right or is not balanced right now. But this is already confirmed as a known issue.

Machinist90
22-05-2015, 21:49
AI run a simplified tyre model. If they didn't we'd run 2 cars max.

but complex enough to get them to pit at around the same time as I'm supposed to? (in the future that is) or do they base their pitstop on actual wear

Kitt
22-05-2015, 21:50
Ok thanks dudes,and sorry for choking up the forum with duplcate threads.Just had to know for sure,other wise I'd get no sleep tonight lol

Invincible
22-05-2015, 21:56
but complex enough to get them to pit at around the same time as I'm supposed to? (in the future that is) or do they base their pitstop on actual wear
Usually you'll have to stop for gas way before your tires are worn out.
At least that is the case for gt and lmp cars. Depending on the track they do double, triple or even quadruple stints before they have to change tires.
So given that, the ai has to stop either way. May it be for gas or for a new set of wheels.

Machinist90
22-05-2015, 21:58
Usually you'll have to stop for gas way before your tires are worn out.
At least that is the case for gt and lmp cars. Depending on the track they do double, triple or even quadruple stints before they have to change tires.
So given that, the ai has to stop either way. May it be for gas or for a new set of wheels.

coolcool

mister dog
22-05-2015, 22:04
I think i felt it myself already, but that's a bit the problem as we don't know 100% sure without an indicator.
In the rant video posted today by stella stig, he mentioned him and his mates did a tyre wear test by doing a 30 lap online race with tyre wear set at x7 (so that would make it the equivalent of 210 laps), and they didn't feel the tires going and could complete the race on one set. He also mentioned that he didn't feel any difference between different tyre compounds of the same nature (AKA; soft/medium/hard slicks for example). Laptimes were the same.

This is just 'hearsay' of course and i'm yet to do some longer races to see for myself, but i wanted to share this nonetheless.

Ian Bell
22-05-2015, 22:05
but complex enough to get them to pit at around the same time as I'm supposed to? (in the future that is) or do they base their pitstop on actual wear

That is the intention yes.

Doug914
22-05-2015, 22:11
All the player cars tires have tire wear, but some are admittedly on the light side. However, AI tire wear wasn't enabled upon release, but is now here in our local builds. Chris and I are working on the degradation rates now and been testing the last two days pretty heavily.. It won't be across the board perfect, but will get the job done.
I've been running through all the race cars these last few days doing AI rain performance, AI wear rates and Player wear rates. Rain performance was generally pretty close and not needed much adjusting. Tire wear amounts had lower priority for balancing near the end of development and I apologize for some of the confusion. They are now getting fixed and tweaked properly.

Some of the player cars that were very light on tire wear were the GT3, GT4, Formula Gulf. The bulk of the cars are reasonably close as is, but I'm tweaking them anyways to get it as close as i can. Thanks for your patience everyone :)

Doug914
22-05-2015, 22:14
I think i felt it myself already, but that's a bit the problem as we don't know 100% sure without an indicator.
In the rant video posted today by stella stig, he mentioned him and his mates did a tyre wear test by doing a 30 lap online race with tyre wear set at x7 (so that would make it the equivalent of 210 laps), and they didn't feel the tires going and could complete the race on one set. He also mentioned that he didn't feel any difference between different tyre compounds of the same nature (AKA; soft/medium/hard slicks for example). Laptimes were the same.

This is just 'hearsay' of course and i'm yet to do some longer races to see for myself, but i wanted to share this nonetheless.

The cars they used were some of the worst as i noted above. The Formula Gulf and the GT3 cars. Already fixed here.. :)

Doug914
22-05-2015, 22:19
Usually you'll have to stop for gas way before your tires are worn out.
At least that is the case for gt and lmp cars. Depending on the track they do double, triple or even quadruple stints before they have to change tires.
So given that, the ai has to stop either way. May it be for gas or for a new set of wheels.


The AI will usually stop for fuel before the tires wear out. The player car, once its all tweaked to perfection, will just make full fuel run before the tires get undrivable, but you'll know your on borrowed time..Now, this will be a bit track dependent. Some tracks are just harder on tires. So once this all goes through you might have to start some races on mediums to compete.
Unless not allowed by the rules, there's no reason not to change tires when coming in for fuel as you can change tires way before the fuel is done (unless thers very few laps left).

mister dog
22-05-2015, 22:19
All the player cars tires have tire wear, but some are admittedly on the light side. AI tire wear wasn't enabled upon release, but is now here in our local builds. Chris and I are working on the degradation rates now and been testing the last two days pretty heavily.. It won't be across the board perfect, but will get the job done.
I've been running through all the race cars these last few days doing AI rain performance, AI wear rates and Player wear rates. Rain performance was generally pretty close and not needed much adjusting. Tire wear amounts had lower priority for balancing near the end of development and I apologize for some of the confusion. They are now getting fixed and tweaked properly.

Some of the player cars that were very light on tire wear were the GT3, GT4, Formula Gulf. The bulk of the cars are reasonably close as is, but I'm tweaking them anyways to get it as close as i can. Thanks for your patience everyone :)
Thank you for the update. If i read the part about the rain performance right, it means the pace of the AI wasn't that different from the players? I currently suspended my career as each time the rain fell, those bots wouldn't pit and would keep on setting (what seemed to me), dry laptimes.

Bealdor
22-05-2015, 22:22
Thank you for the update. If i read the part about the rain performance right, it means the pace of the AI wasn't that different from the players? I currently suspended my career as each time the rain fell, those bots wouldn't pit and would keep on setting (what seemed to me), dry laptimes.

There's a difference between general AI performance in the rain and the known issue that the AI is not affected when the weather changes to rain.

mister dog
22-05-2015, 22:27
There's a difference between general AI performance in the rain and the known issue that the AI is not affected when the weather changes to rain.
Cheers i didn't know there was a difference.

Doug914
22-05-2015, 22:51
Cheers i didn't know there was a difference.

Correct, yes. Two different things and that is fixed too. And we also changed how quick the AI will pit once the rain starts making that problem almost moot anyways.

FLX81
23-05-2015, 09:59
Awesome, thanks for the info @ Doug! :)

jimmyb_84
23-05-2015, 10:24
Great thread, with some very interesting information on the tyres.

Looking forward to the first update, the game will get even better

Thomas Sikora
23-05-2015, 14:35
I've been running through all the race cars these last few days doing AI rain performance, AI wear rates and Player wear rates. Rain performance was generally pretty close and not needed much adjusting. Tire wear amounts had lower priority for balancing near the end of development and I apologize for some of the confusion. They are now getting fixed and tweaked properly.

im a little bit confused now,
regarding the "Ai, is to fast" thread:
http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?22029-Is-AI-too-fast-too-good&p=894646&viewfull=1#post894646
i looks for me like it would be extrem quick, like without rain...

but you wrote there is not much adjustment needed. :confused:
Means that the AI performance difference between rain and dry is ok?

Machinist90
23-05-2015, 14:49
comforting to read it's been worked on intensively,looking forward to the patch containing those fixes,will really improve my enjoyment in careermode

danpinho
23-05-2015, 15:33
Career suspended for now. I'll wait for patch update since it's frustrating to dedicate work and time just knowing that you going to loose a race if weather changes.

spinkick
23-05-2015, 17:18
Glad this is getting sorted. Could have sworn the AI ran slower through 1/2 the mclaren f1 endurence race. Maybe I was just in the zone :)

Doug914
23-05-2015, 17:26
No. Read again. My understanding is:

1. When weather *changes* from dry to wet there is no / little impact on the AI. In other words, they race in the wet as if it's dry. This is a known bug and will be fixed.
2. If the race *starts* wet, the AI is affected appropriately. There's still some tweaking to do, but it's mostly o.k.

The first is they just run as if on rain tires once it starts raining. rain tires are magiclly on the car without pitting, where as the player is stuck out on slicks getting the full brunt of their uselessness in the wet.

The second is correct , yes.

Doug914
23-05-2015, 17:31
Glad this is getting sorted. Could have sworn the AI ran slower through 1/2 the mclaren f1 endurence race. Maybe I was just in the zone :)

Cars with treaded tires don't really need to pit for rain. There's no wet tire option. This was another AI bug we fixed. The AI with street type tires were comming into the pits for tires when there was no need to. Thats probably some of what you were seeing.

Thomas Sikora
23-05-2015, 17:56
The first is they just run as if on rain tires once it starts raining. rain tires are magiclly on the car without pitting, where as the player is stuck out on slicks getting the full brunt of their uselessness in the wet.

The second is correct , yes.

Hmmm....OK.... with that i could life.
Means that currently the AI has a advantage in weather chainging conditons?

What i noticed that in career mode GT5, G40, Silverstone 3rd event,
the first traininig was in wet, there i was about about 1s faster (AI=100%),
Q i was 1,5 seconds faster.
In Race, after i pit to wet tires, i couldn't get the speed of the 5th, it was very difficult, no chance to overtake him. Ok, i saw that my temperature fall down to 60-65 left side and about 50 right side.
Is it possible that the AI drive all the time in optimum temperature window?That could explain the behavior, because the first laps out of pit the car feels faster, only later after temp drop it was slippy....

thanks for verification Doug.

LordDRIFT
23-05-2015, 21:20
What is the hierarchy or weakness strengths of the non-slick options? Example UHP and XR.

Doug914
23-05-2015, 22:17
Hmmm....OK.... with that i could life.
Means that currently the AI has a advantage in weather chainging conditons?

What i noticed that in career mode GT5, G40, Silverstone 3rd event,
the first traininig was in wet, there i was about about 1s faster (AI=100%),
Q i was 1,5 seconds faster.
In Race, after i pit to wet tires, i couldn't get the speed of the 5th, it was very difficult, no chance to overtake him. Ok, i saw that my temperature fall down to 60-65 left side and about 50 right side.
Is it possible that the AI drive all the time in optimum temperature window?That could explain the behavior, because the first laps out of pit the car feels faster, only later after temp drop it was slippy....

thanks for verification Doug.

With the limitation of the AI physics and tire model ( for performance reasons) yes essentially they are always at optimium temp becuase its not posible to model it. They will see tire wear degradation in the coming patches though, so that should help that situation. Your temp dropping might be something i need to tweak. I'm through all the higher end racecar tweaks now and will be doing cars like the Ginetta next or,very soon.

Doug914
23-05-2015, 22:24
What is the hierarchy or weakness strengths of the non-slick options? Example UHP and XR.

The defaults is the most track like tire. Shaved, a little stickier, less tread grooves. The others are just like what you'd buy for the street in two steps. We got a little overboard on that probably, but there you go. Pcars in a nutshell. Made by nuts . ;)

RyanHieronymus
23-05-2015, 23:55
If it's not possible to model cold tires for the AI, is there a possible work around? A way to artificially limit their available grip for the first XX meters, or something like that? They really do get the jump on you for the first lap or so. Thanks for all you guys have done! This game is a masterpiece in my eyes!

LordDRIFT
24-05-2015, 00:27
The defaults is the most track like tire. Shaved, a little stickier, less tread grooves. The others are just like what you'd buy for the street in two steps. We got a little overboard on that probably, but there you go. Pcars in a nutshell. Made by nuts . ;)

Yes , but what do the "others" do?. In some races these are my only options but I don't know what conditions they excel in.

F1_Racer68
24-05-2015, 05:13
The first is they just run as if on rain tires once it starts raining. rain tires are magiclly on the car without pitting, where as the player is stuck out on slicks getting the full brunt of their uselessness in the wet.

The second is correct , yes.

Actually, what I have been seeing in my GT5 career is that the AI pits at the end of lap 1 and throws on wet tires LONG before the first rain drops even start falling. In the full distance events at Silverstone, the rain starts around lap 6, but the AI cars almost all pit at the end of lap 1. They then proceed to run normal "slick" laptimes on their wet tires in DRY conditions (a feat that should utterly destroy the wets).

pigsy
24-05-2015, 05:56
This video shows that the AI are affected by weather. This race started dry and by lap 7 of 10 was raining. No AI pitted for tires and all were on slicks. You'll see at around the 25sec mark the last lap times were about 8 seconds behind their best times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX6AgZBQ0Ig

In real life though I would have thought with this much rain you'd have all cars on slicks spearing off the track.

Bealdor
24-05-2015, 06:43
If it's not possible to model cold tires for the AI, is there a possible work around? A way to artificially limit their available grip for the first XX meters, or something like that? They really do get the jump on you for the first lap or so. Thanks for all you guys have done! This game is a masterpiece in my eyes!

That's already done. The AI is a bit slower o the first 5000m afaik to simulate this. Not sure if this applies to practice sessions too though.

Awong124
24-05-2015, 07:11
If it's not possible to model cold tires for the AI, is there a possible work around? A way to artificially limit their available grip for the first XX meters, or something like that? They really do get the jump on you for the first lap or so. Thanks for all you guys have done! This game is a masterpiece in my eyes!


That's already done. The AI is a bit slower o the first 5000m afaik to simulate this. Not sure if this applies to practice sessions too though.

But it's not really necessary for a race is it? In races your tires start at optimal temp anyway. Your tires only start cold in practice and qualifying.

Bealdor
24-05-2015, 07:17
But it's not really necessary for a race is it? In races your tires start at optimal temp anyway. Your tires only start cold in practice and qualifying.

It's also there to simulate cold brains.

could_do_better
24-05-2015, 07:42
If it's not possible to model cold tires for the AI, is there a possible work around? A way to artificially limit their available grip for the first XX meters, or something like that? They really do get the jump on you for the first lap or so. Thanks for all you guys have done! This game is a masterpiece in my eyes!

This is/was implemented, 4000m if I remember correctly. Perhaps it ism't working anymore. I suspect Doug's work last week will also have got to the bottom of this.

could_do_better
24-05-2015, 07:43
Brake temperature at race start is an equally important imbalance with the AI in my opinion.

Thomas Sikora
25-05-2015, 08:47
Your temp dropping might be something i need to tweak. I'm through all the higher end racecar tweaks now and will be doing cars like the Ginetta next or,very soon.

for Info.
career mode GT5, G40, Silverstone 3rd event, main race
Tried again and noticed that its nearly impossibe to get temperature in the raintires, rain start in Lap5, in Lap 12 i had still 50 left and 40 right side.

Mattias
25-05-2015, 10:14
Actually, what I have been seeing in my GT5 career is that the AI pits at the end of lap 1 and throws on wet tires LONG before the first rain drops even start falling. In the full distance events at Silverstone, the rain starts around lap 6, but the AI cars almost all pit at the end of lap 1. They then proceed to run normal "slick" laptimes on their wet tires in DRY conditions (a feat that should utterly destroy the wets).

This is something I've been wondering about as well. The part about how you can drive around the track with wet tires in DRY conditions without destroying them. It's not just that the AI can do it, a player can do it as well.

Doug914
25-05-2015, 10:28
This is something I've been wondering about as well. The part about how you can drive around the track with wet tires in DRY conditions without destroying them. It's not just that the AI can do it, a player can do it as well.

Yes this is something we already changed. We cut the prediction time in half for the AI at race start to keep them off rain tires for that many laps.. Additioally we're making the prediction sensitive to weather/ time acceleration. Personally i'd rather there be no prediction and let them only react to whats on the ground. It would all make more sense and be more ffaie to everyone. and thats not far from reality.

Doug914
25-05-2015, 10:34
for Info.
career mode GT5, G40, Silverstone 3rd event, main race
Tried again and noticed that its nearly impossibe to get temperature in the raintires, rain start in Lap5, in Lap 12 i had still 50 left and 40 right side.

I've checked and this shares the tire compound that the Clio Cup uses. Ive added a bit of heat and lowered the cold sensitivity and that solves it. Still on the cold side but drives fine. Any more heat and the clio will overheat it's fronts. I'll try that Silverstone event to double check things. Tahnks for the info. :)

Thomas Sikora
25-05-2015, 10:39
Sounds good,
hope the wets will overhead in dry,
The 3rd G40 event is with a short rain :)
Dry condition after lap 13-15. Then the wets get temperature but don't overheat.

hkraft300
25-05-2015, 10:41
I'm sure I speak for everyone that we all respect the developers working so closely with and engaging with the pCars player community.

Great work guys. Keep at it. We love the game and appreciate your efforts to making it an even better experience for us all.

Us console guys finally have a sim worthy to feed our racing bugs ;D

Doug914
25-05-2015, 10:45
Sounds good,
hope the wets will overhead in dry,
The 3rd G40 event is with a short rain :)
Dry condition after lap 13-15. Then the wets get temperature but don't overheat.

If this doesn't work ill make a compound just for the G40 and get it working. Might be the best thing to do anyways.....

Awong124
25-05-2015, 18:42
Here is something you might want to test out, Doug. I tried using the Ruf RGT-8, and the Faretti Track tires feel kind of off. I used the stock settings and half tank fuel load. Assists set on real. The tires when cold feel like driving on ice at any speed. The steering has pretty much no feel to it. It's difficult to even keep the car going straight. Oddly, it feels better in the corners than on the straights. Even when warmed up it has a tendency to wander left and right on the straights. The car feels fine on the Faretti Extreme Summer tires, however, so I don't think it's a problem with the car. In terms of absolute grip, the Track tire still grips better than Extreme Summer tire, but it just feels strange.

Flying Kefran
26-05-2015, 08:45
It is not directly linked to the original question but how do you know which tyres you are actually using ?

For exemple, when you start the race with the automatic tyre choice and it rains: how do you know if the game gave you intermediate or full wet ?
Same thing after pitting. Sometimes I feel that something is wrong: it is not the compound I had expected but how can we know which one we have (apart from deducting it from the driving feelings)

I do not see this anywhere in the hud.

JDFSSS
26-05-2015, 10:23
It is not directly linked to the original question but how do you know which tyres you are actually using ?

For exemple, when you start the race with the automatic tyre choice and it rains: how do you know if the game gave you intermediate or full wet ?
Same thing after pitting. Sometimes I feel that something is wrong: it is not the compound I had expected but how can we know which one we have (apart from deducting it from the driving feelings)

I do not see this anywhere in the hud.

There is no way to know. The tire choices are so confusing in this game. I wish the auto tire choice wasn't even in the game, it just creates confusion and uncertainty. Also, if you look at the tire compounds available in your setup screen they are different from the tire compounds available when you pit. This game makes no sense sometimes.

Mascot
27-05-2015, 14:43
The info and feedback from Doug in this thread is pure gold. Am I alone in thinking threads like this should be stickied, or at the very least a master thread containing links to this type of thread should (you know, ones that contain real, actual, useful information)?

Umer Ahmad
27-05-2015, 15:12
ok fine.....DONE. How cool is this place?

I'll leave it STICKIED for a while. Probably unstick later. Enjoy for now.

Mascot
27-05-2015, 15:30
ok fine.....DONE. How cool is this place?

I'll leave it STICKIED for a while. Probably unstick later. Enjoy for now.

:)
Thanks Umer, but PLEASE leave it up there, along with any other threads that contain hard facts from the devs (or have one stickied thread with links to such threads). It should reduce the number of clone threads and allow all of you mods to have a much easier time of it. This forum is utterly drowning in user-generated fud.

Spirit X
27-05-2015, 15:45
Is there any info around regarding the performance of different compounds? For instance in the RUF CTR 3 (I think) I had the choice of either UHP Summer, UHP Extreme Summer or Track Day tyres. Now to me it 'felt' like the Extreme Summer had the most grip and seemed to give me the best lap times but then how am I supposed to know which is the best choice for a 50 lap race for instance?

Same thing with some of the other cars. I think it was the Pagani Hyuaruaauua that gave a choice of Trofero Zero or two other Trofero compounds with no clue as to what they were. Seemed odd. Obviously I could run 30 laps with each if I had a spare couple of hours but might be nice if I could also read a sentence of text to tell me the same thing in five seconds. Just a thought.

Umer Ahmad
27-05-2015, 15:54
Is there any info around regarding the performance of different compounds? For instance in the RUF CTR 3 (I think) I had the choice of either UHP Summer, UHP Extreme Summer or Track Day tyres. Now to me it 'felt' like the Extreme Summer had the most grip and seemed to give me the best lap times but then how am I supposed to know which is the best choice for a 50 lap race for instance?

Same thing with some of the other cars. I think it was the Pagani Hyuaruaauua that gave a choice of Trofero Zero or two other Trofero compounds with no clue as to what they were. Seemed odd. Obviously I could run 30 laps with each if I had a spare couple of hours but might be nice if I could also read a sentence of text to tell me the same thing in five seconds. Just a thought.

Cant find it now but I gave a brief explanation earlier.

Basically most of the road cars have 2-3 tyre choices. The first will be something like a high performance Z-rated tyre. The next step up will be a stickier "track day" tyre and for some supercars you'll have the "Trofeo" which is a semi-slick HIGHEST dry-grip.

For the P Zero it goes
P Zero
P Zero Corsa
P Zero Trofeo

I forget exactly how the Masculins work but it's very similar.

Spirit X
27-05-2015, 22:57
Thanks Umer, really useful to know.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 00:59
If this doesn't work ill make a compound just for the G40 and get it working. Might be the best thing to do anyways.....

Just a note that i did end up making a wet compound just for the G40 . No change in grips, but i could fine tune the wear and heat better than sharing the Clio treads.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 01:03
This video shows that the AI are affected by weather. This race started dry and by lap 7 of 10 was raining. No AI pitted for tires and all were on slicks. You'll see at around the 25sec mark the last lap times were about 8 seconds behind their best times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX6AgZBQ0Ig

In real life though I would have thought with this much rain you'd have all cars on slicks spearing off the track.

Yes correct. They should be more like 16 sec a lap slower if still out on slicks. Whats happening is our performance reduction code is treating it like a standard rain tire instead of a useless slick. This was fixed already.

Deadzone
28-05-2015, 01:17
Hi, Doug.

I asked Umer this question but he wasn't sure on the answer.

Are Players able to get a puncture or blow out a tire? Is this a function that isn't working at the moment or is it just really hard to blow a tire?
Also on tire malfunctions, are they tied to mechanical failures or tire wear in the gameplay options menu.
Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

N0body Of The Goat
28-05-2015, 07:00
I feel a little guilty, last night I used my hypothesis about the current Formula Gulf rain tyres performing well in the dry to finish on the podium in an online 12-lap race at Donington GP last night (best lap of ~1min29secs).:triumphant:

One behaviour of these tyres that I really loved was very controllable stepping out of the rear end at hairpin exits. :)

SpeedLimitUnknown
28-05-2015, 08:54
I'm glad the tire issues (and AI) are getting looked at. I just find it really odd that this type of gameplay Tuning wasn't done before release. It's like there weren't enough people playing through the game during beta (either in single player and career in various whether conditions) to notice this issues and ensure proper adjustments were made. I also find the AI difficulty is also inconsistent from track to track. Anyway, thanks again SMS for correcting these issues, keep up the great work and updates!

Doug914
28-05-2015, 10:23
Hi, Doug.

I asked Umer this question but he wasn't sure on the answer.

Are Players able to get a puncture or blow out a tire? Is this a function that isn't working at the moment or is it just really hard to blow a tire?
Also on tire malfunctions, are they tied to mechanical failures or tire wear in the gameplay options menu.
Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

Tires will blow out at very high temperatures or very high wear. Neither of which is easy to get ATM. I'm not concentrating on that right now, just whatever happens organicly with any changes I'm doing. As far as I know there are no mechanical punctures.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 10:30
I'm glad the tire issues (and AI) are getting looked at. I just find it really odd that this type of gameplay Tuning wasn't done before release. It's like there weren't enough people playing through the game during beta (either in single player and career in various whether conditions) to notice this issues and ensure proper adjustments were made. I also find the AI difficulty is also inconsistent from track to track. Anyway, thanks again SMS for correcting these issues, keep up the great work and updates!

You're right and I won't duck the point. We were late in getting the AI rain stuff working. We took a lot of time (longer than expected) to get the behaviours correct and get the tools to make them tweakable the way I wanted them. So it left a bit of a rush to get the first wave of tuning them done. Just being honest. And I won't promise what you see in the next patch will be perfect either. It will be a big improvement, but as these things go with all the cars and all the scenarios for rain in this great game of ours, there's still bound to be nit picks here and there.

mister dog
28-05-2015, 12:02
Thanks for taking the time to reply to our questions so frequently Doug, i'm looking forward to your fixes the most at the moment as this will revive the career mode for me and i'm sure for many others too.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 13:00
Thanks for taking the time to reply to our questions so frequently Doug, i'm looking forward to your fixes the most at the moment as this will revive the career mode for me and i'm sure for many others too.

If you guys could post a few specific career races that completly frustrated you, once I'm done I'd like to run through some of those. Some examples, specifics about AI differences in performance ets.. that cover the scope of most the problems. I'm sorry i wasn't writing any down as i was going through complaints. Thanks! :)

mister dog
28-05-2015, 13:08
If you guys could post a few specific career races that completly frustrated you, once I'm done I'd like to run through some of those. Some examples, specifics about AI differences in performance ets.. that cover the scope of most the problems. I'm sorry i wasn't writing any down as i was going through complaints. Thanks! :)

I remember two where i just spun out in the latter stages of the race, as it started to rain and the AI just kept on going like it was dry; 2 invitational events the first one with the M1 at Zolder in season 1, and the second one was the group 5 invitational at Donington at the beginning of season 2 (zero to hero).

As i restarted the M1 event at zolder a couple of times, i also encountered that bug when the AI pits at the end of lap 1 but it only started to rain in lap 5 or something, so it was like they felt the weather coming in advance.

lawyer238
28-05-2015, 13:38
You're right and I won't duck the point. We were late in getting the AI rain stuff working. We took a lot of time (longer than expected) to get the behaviours correct and get the tools to make them tweakable the way I wanted them. So it left a bit of a rush to get the first wave of tuning them done. Just being honest. And I won't promise what you see in the next patch will be perfect either. It will be a big improvement, but as these things go with all the cars and all the scenarios for rain in this great game of ours, there's still bound to be nit picks here and there.

It is really good and refreshing to see a developer engaging with us, telling what is being fixed and explaining how things went (slightly) wrong......try getting Codemasters to do that :)

Roger Prynne
28-05-2015, 13:39
^^^ That's why we love WMD/SMS so much... we have had this sort of honest contact for the last 4 years.

Marrrfooo
28-05-2015, 14:09
I remember two where i just spun out in the latter stages of the race, as it started to rain and the AI just kept on going like it was dry; 2 invitational events the first one with the M1 at Zolder in season 1, and the second one was the group 5 invitational at Donington at the beginning of season 2 (zero to hero).

As i restarted the M1 event at zolder a couple of times, i also encountered that bug when the AI pits at the end of lap 1 but it only started to rain in lap 5 or something, so it was like they felt the weather coming in advance.

I second mister dog's comment about the M1 @ Zolder - had the same problem with the rain kicking in towards the end and you're just passed like you're a drunk on a track day with no clue what you're doing (despite leading 8+ secs prior to that point). Lol.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 14:24
I second mister dog's comment about the M1 @ Zolder - had the same problem with the rain kicking in towards the end and you're just passed like you're a drunk on a track day with no clue what you're doing (despite leading 8+ secs prior to that point). Lol.

Both you and the AI should pit for wets in this situation. So what we need to make sure happens is the AI pits when the rain starts and they pit quickly. Then you should to. You'll continue to slide around like a drunken soldier, there's no way to change how bad full slicks are in the rain for the (realistic) player model.

mister dog
28-05-2015, 16:18
Both you and the AI should pit for wets in this situation. So what we need to make sure happens is the AI pits when the rain starts and they pit quickly. Then you should to. You'll continue to slide around like a drunken soldier, there's no way to change how bad full slicks are in the rain for the (realistic) player model.

Read your comment that when the bots keep on going with slicks in the rain, they should be 16 seconds a lap slower as they are now, but i was wondering if they weren't also too fast when changing to wets? Problem is when i was having to watch my cornering speeds in the rain on wets, almost all AI were just going on like they were immune to the loss in grip after it started to rain, but i couldn't see if they were the ones that kept on going on the immune slicks, or if they were the ones that actually pitted for wet tyres.

Isn't their overall pace on wet tyres too fast also, and if so by how much seconds approximately?

brasstacks
28-05-2015, 19:35
This thread is my first introduction to WMD/SMS, and the level of communication is great! Really gives promise to the future of pcars.

I have experienced a very frustrating race at brands hatch. I was in first place leading by 5ish seconds, then it started to rain with 1 laps to go. I drove as smoothly as I could, but ended up in 4th place because the AI behavior did not change when it started getting wet.

caslad81
28-05-2015, 20:43
How come with the same cars with the same conditions can you warm your tyres within 3/4s of a lap and then 5 mins later it can take 3 laps?

Doug914
28-05-2015, 20:46
Read your comment that when the bots keep on going with slicks in the rain, they should be 16 seconds a lap slower as they are now, but i was wondering if they weren't also too fast when changing to wets? Problem is when i was having to watch my cornering speeds in the rain on wets, almost all AI were just going on like they were immune to the loss in grip after it started to rain, but i couldn't see if they were the ones that kept on going on the immune slicks, or if they were the ones that actually pitted for wet tyres.

Isn't their overall pace on wet tyres too fast also, and if so by how much seconds approximately?

Yes i know its confusing all the threads and response to the AI speeds, but the AI when actually on wets is also on the fast side and being adjusted down. They are not immune to the rain as it may seem. They are about 2-3 seconds faster than me @80 % car dependent. In general i'm dropping their speeds aprox that much but every car isn't the same. I even found one that was too slow.
As a test for you to compare. GT3 15 same class cars 10 lap race @80% fixed "rain" conditions.......Dubai international. Leaders after 3 laps doing 1:46. The player car got some slight tweaks too. I was doing a best of 1:45.3 but much less consistent than the AI was. This works out well in a rain situation as us humans aren't usually as consistent.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 20:49
This thread is my first introduction to WMD/SMS, and the level of communication is great! Really gives promise to the future of pcars.

I have experienced a very frustrating race at brands hatch. I was in first place leading by 5ish seconds, then it started to rain with 1 laps to go. I drove as smoothly as I could, but ended up in 4th place because the AI behavior did not change when it started getting wet.

This specific thing was fixed (or made much better) with a simple code change across the board. I beleive that might be in the next patch. "AI too fast o n slicks in the rain" it should say in the release note if its there. But what i'm working on won't yet.

ScorpionR3D
28-05-2015, 21:21
That's already done. The AI is a bit slower o the first 5000m afaik to simulate this. Not sure if this applies to practice sessions too though.

Is the AI the same amount of meters slower in every class? To be more specific, a race in a 125cc shifter kart is hardly any longer than 5k, if at all. Does this mean the AI will be racing at a reduced pace all race?

Doug914
28-05-2015, 21:31
Good question. I didn't code it so don't know for sure. I'll have to check.

mister dog
28-05-2015, 22:09
Yes i know its confusing all the threads and response to the AI speeds, but the AI when actually on wets is also on the fast side and being adjusted down. They are not immune to the rain as it may seem. They are about 2-3 seconds faster than me @80 % car dependent. In general i'm dropping their speeds aprox that much but every car isn't the same. I even found one that was too slow.
As a test for you to compare. GT3 15 same class cars 10 lap race @80% fixed "rain" conditions.......Dubai international. Leaders after 3 laps doing 1:46. The player car got some slight tweaks too. I was doing a best of 1:45.3 but much less consistent than the AI was. This works out well in a rain situation as us humans aren't usually as consistent.
Exactly what i experienced, i'm on 85% and in the dry i can qualify on the front and keep up with them during a race with a shot of winning if i don't screw up, but in the wet races i started (so no AI pit/slick tyre bug), it felt like i had a 2 second deficit too and couldn't keep up with them like i would in the dry.

So you are right on the money there, i'll try replicating your Dubai race tomorrow and report back so we are sure :)

BMASTER
29-05-2015, 01:35
This sounds all so nice, any Ideas when the next patch is ready?

SpeedLimitUnknown
29-05-2015, 05:20
You're right and I won't duck the point. We were late in getting the AI rain stuff working. We took a lot of time (longer than expected) to get the behaviours correct and get the tools to make them tweakable the way I wanted them. So it left a bit of a rush to get the first wave of tuning them done. Just being honest. And I won't promise what you see in the next patch will be perfect either. It will be a big improvement, but as these things go with all the cars and all the scenarios for rain in this great game of ours, there's still bound to be nit picks here and there.

That's great Doug! Just like you we all want PCars to succeed and be the best it can be, I'm glad you and SMS are so open to feedback and working on ways to improve the various issues in the game!

Have you guys considered exposing some of the AI variables such as grip levels (wet and dry) and aggression through an ini file for each track? Being able to edit Al driver names in each race class would be awesome too. I'm really hoping this type of customization can be a bigger part of the game in the future!

The Papyrus racing sims were great for this. Every driver name, aggression, min max skill level etc could be edited and adjusted in a txt file.

SpeedLimitUnknown
29-05-2015, 05:28
Doug, while you're adjusting wet weather grip and tire wear, can you make sure the AI always have their lights on in poor weather conditions? (rain, fog, storms etc). It's really difficult to see them!

Marrrfooo
29-05-2015, 10:31
Doug, while you're adjusting wet weather grip and tire wear, can you make sure the AI always have their lights on in poor weather conditions? (rain, fog, storms etc). It's really difficult to see them!

I believe they don't do this because the presence/calculations in the projections of their headlights puts a massive hit on the framerate.

I agree that they should be on - but I also agree that not having the framerate destroyed as a greater priority. I hope this will get fixed though as it does make close wet racing very dangerous!

Marrrfooo
29-05-2015, 10:33
Both you and the AI should pit for wets in this situation. So what we need to make sure happens is the AI pits when the rain starts and they pit quickly. Then you should to. You'll continue to slide around like a drunken soldier, there's no way to change how bad full slicks are in the rain for the (realistic) player model.

Hi Doug,

You're absolutely right - I was sliding around all over the place by the end of the race and so I should sticking on slicks in the wet. :) It was the fact that the AI simply had a seemingly zero reduction in pace when under the same constraints/conditions that were a spoiler.

I think the issue is that if a race goes from dry to wet the AI doesn't seem to pit for changes of tyres. If the race starts wet (or is at least wet for the duration) then there seems to be a fair(er) reflection of what it would be like.

could_do_better
29-05-2015, 10:36
If you scan this thread Doug has said the issue of getting the AI to pit as soon as it start raining and reducing their wet grip have been addressed and will be in a future patch (hopefully the next one, but the release notes will tell us that)

Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 10:49
I believe they don't do this because the presence/calculations in the projections of their headlights puts a massive hit on the framerate.

I agree that they should be on - but I also agree that not having the framerate destroyed as a greater priority. I hope this will get fixed though as it does make close wet racing very dangerous!

Correct.

mister dog
29-05-2015, 11:20
Did my own personal test at Spa instead (as i know that track good so i can rule out driver error as much as possible), AI @ 84%, starting from 5th and no aids.

-In the first dry race i could match the AI's pace with some good driving and managed to finish 3rd (so they basically match my general pace).
-In the second rain race the AI had too much grip especially in the corners whilst i had to tippy toe in order not to spin out. The difference is not great but it does seem the overall pace of the AI has to be slowed down by about 2 seconds a lap by making them a couple of tenths slower per corner, so it reflects their difficulty in the dry better. Could be that i'm just crap in the wet but i'm giving my 2 cents so others can debate :)



Doug, while you're adjusting wet weather grip and tire wear, can you make sure the AI always have their lights on in poor weather conditions? (rain, fog, storms etc). It's really difficult to see them!
As the conditions are bad and you can't see much trackside detail anyway, can't the overall detail be scaled back in rain/fog/storm conditions in order to have more processing power available for having the AI driving with their lights on?

Doug914
29-05-2015, 19:19
One of the reasons i originally left them a bit fast was so there was room for the player to do a wet rain setup in your car. Could easily be worth the better part of 2 seconds with most race cars- even more with formula or LMP's. But i realize now it was not good for general playability when so many career races change to rain mid stream so no chance to change the setup.
Anyways thanks for the test. What car btw? Mclaren GT3?

mister dog
29-05-2015, 19:29
One of the reasons i originally left them a bit fast was so there was room for the player to do a wet rain setup in your car. Could easily be worth the better part of 2 seconds with most race cars- even more with formula or LMP's. But i realize now it was not good for general playability when so many career races change to rain mid stream so no chance to change the setup.
Anyways thanks for the test. What car btw? Mclaren GT3?

No biggie, thanks for the communication :)
BMW Z4 GT3 as i already dialed the FFB in for that car (not the general tuning that was still stock). It's a nice thought to try and motivate the player to do a separate rain setup but like you say mid race that would be useless, and currently you can only save one setup per car no, so there is no room for trying that even?

Doug914
29-05-2015, 19:44
Yeah Pcars2 really needs to do saved setups by name of your choosing, like back in gtr2. You could save as many as you liked and name them freely. Plus the game would automaticlly save any current setup you were messing with while in track, so next time you went back in that's what you had. Even if you never specificly saved it.

mister dog
29-05-2015, 19:56
Yeah Pcars2 really needs to do saved setups by name of your choosing, like back in gtr2. You could save as many as you liked and name them freely. Plus the game would automaticlly save any current setup you were messing with while in track, so next time you went back in that's what you had. Even if you never specificly saved it.
It's surprising PCARS 1 already requires so much processing power that compromises had to be made in every department, even on high end PC's. It was worth it though as the physics and tyre model (which i suppose take up most of the juice), make this game stand apart and the FFB also once you tweak it a bit.

I suppose not much needs to be revised in that area so once the hardware becomes more powerful, the extra grunt can be used for all those other features that couldn't be implemented.

I have another question i'd like to ask, over at GTP we were discussing that there might be a lack of lift off oversteer on RR and MR cars. I haven't tried myself yet but is this due to conservative diff settings on default? I heard most setups where chosen to be on the safe side so most people would be able to race easily straight out of the box?

Doug914
29-05-2015, 20:05
Yes the setups are consistently done leaving most people feeling comfortable. Most people are faster this way. The top 10% or so (just about everyone here and gt planet etc...) would want the setups more knife edged. Anyways what RR and MR ? :)

mister dog
29-05-2015, 20:11
Yes the setups are consistently done leaving most people feeling comfortable. Most people are faster this way. The top 10% or so (just about everyone here and gt planet etc...) would want the setups more knife edged. Anyways what RR and MR ? :)

Poster mentioned a ton of cars already, here's the link:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/physics-thread.304191/page-36#post-10734228

Curious for your input on the matter.

BMASTER
29-05-2015, 20:28
Poster mentioned a ton of cars already, here's the link:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/physics-thread.304191/page-36#post-10734228

Curious for your input on the matter.

What does he mean with YB?

mister dog
29-05-2015, 20:37
What does he mean with YB?

Yellow Bird ;)

ps; i agree with the decision to go for conservative default setups, which can then be tweaked so you can let the cars 'misbehave' should you chose so. The other way around (tuning to tame extreme out of the box settings), requires a lot more work and can be a daunting task sometimes.

BMASTER
29-05-2015, 22:28
Yellow Bird ;)

ps; i agree with the decision to go for conservative default setups, which can then be tweaked so you can let the cars 'misbehave' should you chose so. The other way around (tuning to tame extreme out of the box settings), requires a lot more work and can be a daunting task sometimes.

Thanks for clarification.

But I disagree with the setup. I'd prefer a setup that shows the personality of the car and doesn't try to tame it.

Also I think that these setups aren't done right in every car. For example, I had to tune the tailhappy BAC Mono so he was stable enough for me to drive.

Doug914
29-05-2015, 22:52
There's nothing to comment about really. To each his own on the setups or how you like your car to drive. It varies widly.

BMASTER
29-05-2015, 22:54
There's nothing to comment about really. To each his own on the setups or how you like your car to drive. It varies widly.

In the end it's up to the developers. And you guys can't make everyone happy.

homerlvsbeer
31-05-2015, 19:41
i just notice when it rains and i put my foot down i loose control and traction, and have to slow , just as i begin to do just that and take care, the ai pass me like an express train until the whole field of cars are in front of me now. i also notice the ai doesn't make alot of mistakes, i really expect the odd car to spin out now and then, especially in the rain, i notice a few cars bumping into the track walls while going into the pits but thats all. thx. something else i notice is sometimes when in reply the screen will judder, not all the time, sometimes replay will stop all-together, that only happens now and then, meaning i need to restart the game.

Goldenballs2003
31-05-2015, 21:23
Yeah Pcars2 really needs to do saved setups by name of your choosing, like back in gtr2. You could save as many as you liked and name them freely. Plus the game would automaticlly save any current setup you were messing with while in track, so next time you went back in that's what you had. Even if you never specificly saved it.

Do I assume (I know I shouldn't) from this that PCars 1 won't see these things via a future patch?

Also just like to say thanks for clarifying so many things Doug, feedback like I've seen in this thread from yourself really makes me feel valued as a customer and player. Much respect to you and the team for that.

Doug914
31-05-2015, 21:58
Thanks. Unfortunately it would be too much of a redesign for Pcars1. So yeah, Pcars2.

mister dog
31-05-2015, 22:13
Doug, are you able to confirm if the AI in the wet issue (changing conditions) is going to be fixed in the next patch for PC? Hope i wake up one morning to be pleasantly surprised :)

Doug914
31-05-2015, 22:32
I can't. Too many variables go into it. I'll know a day before you do :(

BMASTER
31-05-2015, 22:47
Thanks. Unfortunately it would be too much of a redesign for Pcars1. So yeah, Pcars2.

But will it get at least somewhat better with the setups?

Lawndarts
01-06-2015, 04:46
Thanks. Unfortunately it would be too much of a redesign for Pcars1. So yeah, Pcars2.

I imagine the GTR 2 way of doing it could be a lot of work, but an ability to save setups per track? Is that going to be possible in PCARS 1?

Bealdor
01-06-2015, 05:42
I imagine the GTR 2 way of doing it could be a lot of work, but an ability to save setups per track? Is that going to be possible in PCARS 1?

Saving setups per track for every car is already doable.

ScorpionR3D
01-06-2015, 07:54
A save per track is done by doing it in 'My garage'

BMASTER
01-06-2015, 08:21
But it's not working properly. If I load a setup it should load the setup and not reset the current setup.

Just in case you don't understand it correct what I'm talking.

I have a setup that I want to use for each track. I load the track and go straight to the track, just to realise, my setup wasn't loaded. Ok, pretty annoying but not the end of the world. I leave the event and go to my garage to load the setup. Afterwards I jump to the event and check if the settings are correct, yes, so I go to the track just to realise, the setup was reseted. Oh boy, why? Back in the pit I setup everything manually, hit save and go back to track. Setup was reseted again. Seriously? And that can go on and on until pcars finally realises, that it shouldn't reset my setup.

Hope you understand my problem. This is a big problem, also it always resets my FFB settings for the car each time the setup gets reseted.

I could live with one setup per track, others can't. But this problem I just talked about is MY biggest problem I encountered so far.

Toxic
01-06-2015, 08:38
@BMASTER

I do not get this in Free Practise, Time Trial or Multiplayer.

Can you provide info on the event type where you see these setup resets?

Mascot
01-06-2015, 08:44
I believe they don't do this because the presence/calculations in the projections of their headlights puts a massive hit on the framerate.

I agree that they should be on - but I also agree that not having the framerate destroyed as a greater priority. I hope this will get fixed though as it does make close wet racing very dangerous!

How about having the headlights/taillights illuminated in fog and rain, but not casting projections and shadows (which would be pretty invisible under daylight conditions, even in fog and rain, anyway)? Surely that could be done to make the cars more visible without compromising the framerate? It's why people in the real world put headlight on in rain and fog - it's about being seen, not helping them actually see ahead.

BMASTER
01-06-2015, 08:47
@BMASTER

I do not get this in Free Practise, Time Trial or Multiplayer.

Can you provide info on the event type where you see these setup resets?

I drive only in career mode and it doesn't happen always, but pretty often.

Bealdor
01-06-2015, 08:50
I drive only in career mode and it doesn't happen always, but pretty often.

That's a known issue (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22315-Known-Issues-Collective-Thread-%28PC%29-Not-for-bug-reporting!-Updated-31-05).

BMASTER
01-06-2015, 09:07
That's a known issue (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22315-Known-Issues-Collective-Thread-%28PC%29-Not-for-bug-reporting!-Updated-31-05).

Good to hear I'm not the only one. Thanks

transfix
01-06-2015, 13:38
It would be good if we can start building a reference file for ideal tire temperatures of the various cars and disciplines.

cerbrus2
02-06-2015, 06:52
After driving the Le Mans race scaled down to 2 hours a few times now, the one thing that bothers me, Well it didn't at the time, but it does now. is that on the lead up to this years Le Mans their has been loads of teams talking about technical info and the like. nissan being the main one at the moment. And they said in an interview that they expect the front tires of the GTR-LM to last at least 3 stints, or 3 tanks of fuel and by the sounds of it this is even heavier wear than what the other cars have because of the extra work the nissan is having to do through its front wheels. But in project cars racing around Le Mans the tires don't seem to last any where near this long. In fact I'm changing them every tank of fuel as they are just so slippy after 10-12 laps.

mister dog
02-06-2015, 07:51
After driving the Le Mans race scaled down to 2 hours a few times now, the one thing that bothers me, Well it didn't at the time, but it does now. is that on the lead up to this years Le Mans their has been loads of teams talking about technical info and the like. nissan being the main one at the moment. And they said in an interview that they expect the front tires of the GTR-LM to last at least 3 stints, or 3 tanks of fuel and by the sounds of it this is even heavier wear than what the other cars have because of the extra work the nissan is having to do through its front wheels. But in project cars racing around Le Mans the tires don't seem to last any where near this long. In fact I'm changing them every tank of fuel as they are just so slippy after 10-12 laps.
If the race is scaled down, isn't the tyre wear also then?

could_do_better
02-06-2015, 07:58
^^ That could be quite a problem on a long track, you could get tires wearing out completely before you can get back to the pits.

Bealdor
02-06-2015, 08:01
If the race is scaled down, isn't the tyre wear also then?

No. Tire wear is a separate setting in the options and is not scaled with race length.

cerbrus2
02-06-2015, 08:02
If the race is scaled down, isn't the tyre wear also then?

If it was so would fuel use, and you probably wouldn't get off the start line before running out. :P

Tomiroquai
02-06-2015, 09:03
Hello, there's a tire bug that makes the car jump !

In GT3 cars at least, after 20 laps of a 40 laps online race at Donington (even in solo trial session btw ) , the car literally jumps as if it was rolling in a rock? ! If you try to restart close to hat moment, it re-happens. So you wait 2 seconds, and you can run again as if nothing happened. 20 laps later, at the end of the race, it happens again.

Several other players have been touched by the bug.

mister dog
02-06-2015, 09:08
^^ That could be quite a problem on a long track, you could get tires wearing out completely before you can get back to the pits.
True, didn't think about that.


No. Tire wear is a separate setting in the options and is not scaled with race length.
Cheers!

FarChri
02-06-2015, 09:17
Thanks. Unfortunately it would be too much of a redesign for Pcars1. So yeah, Pcars2.

Didn't thought it was that complicated... It was one of MY personal long awaited features, I had expected to be found in a future patch. :apologetic:

Ok, but thanks for the clarification and feedback!

pistolero
02-06-2015, 11:57
Sorry if this question has already been asked...

But why not create more graphic texture to show tyre wear ?
There is a specific graphic texture when a tyre is off the track.. So why not for tyre wear ?

Roger Prynne
02-06-2015, 13:10
Because it's a lot of programing to get just right with all the other things going on with our tyre model., but I think the DEV's said that they will try and include it at some stage.
Tyre wear comes in at all types of different stages so it's not just a simple graphic texture.

Lagoa
02-06-2015, 16:10
Because it's a lot of programing to get just right with all the other things going on with our tyre model., but I think the DEV's said that they will try and include it at some stage.
Tyre wear comes in at all types of different stages so it's not just a simple graphic texture.

This doesn't really help as most play incar view.. A simple indicator would do.

pistolero
02-06-2015, 17:21
Because it's a lot of programing to get just right with all the other things going on with our tyre model., but I think the DEV's said that they will try and include it at some stage.
Tyre wear comes in at all types of different stages so it's not just a simple graphic texture.

I did not know it was so difficult to program.
When i use the sofware "pCARS Profiler" the tyre wear information is present for each tyre.
The tyre wear being a irreversible phenomenom (not like temperature) so it seems that a "simple if then function" would be enough. But i 'm not a professional programmer. However "only" 2 or 3 graphic textures of wear (for example one for 50%) would help and would increase the realism.

I like this game and I have great expectations for it. But if this is planned, I'm glad to hear.:)


This doesn't really help as most play incar view.. A simple indicator would do.

both would be well

Doug914
02-06-2015, 18:20
After driving the Le Mans race scaled down to 2 hours a few times now, the one thing that bothers me, Well it didn't at the time, but it does now. is that on the lead up to this years Le Mans their has been loads of teams talking about technical info and the like. nissan being the main one at the moment. And they said in an interview that they expect the front tires of the GTR-LM to last at least 3 stints, or 3 tanks of fuel and by the sounds of it this is even heavier wear than what the other cars have because of the extra work the nissan is having to do through its front wheels. But in project cars racing around Le Mans the tires don't seem to last any where near this long. In fact I'm changing them every tank of fuel as they are just so slippy after 10-12 laps.

The soft slicks should last a bit longer than 1 tank of fuel. The mediums 1.5-ish and the hards should make it through 2 tanks. Thats the design / gameplay (game wide) decision we made. However the wear in the release version for a few of the cars (GT3, GT4 , LMP's some lighter formula's) were off by a bit - some more than others.. I've been rebalancing this for weeks now along with rain, rain tires performance in the dry, and AI rain performance vs palyer. Almost done. My point is that if you were driving the LMP1's then the wear will be quicker than what you have now. I'll run a test there today or tommorow and see what wear i'm getting with a LMP1 car.

Bongomaster
03-06-2015, 11:12
phew, okay it's not just me. the ai is too quick when the track changes from dry to wet.

I will suspend my career (season 1, m1 procar invitational series)

Bealdor
03-06-2015, 11:23
phew, okay it's not just me. the ai is too quick when the track changes from dry to wet.

I will suspend my career (season 1, m1 procar invitational series)

Workaround: Start the race with wet tires (I assume you're talking about the Zolder race). They're good enough in the dry for those short invitational races.

Doug914
03-06-2015, 13:40
The soft slicks should last a bit longer than 1 tank of fuel. The mediums 1.5-ish and the hards should make it through 2 tanks. Thats the design / gameplay (game wide) decision we made. However the wear in the release version for a few of the cars (GT3, GT4 , LMP's some lighter formula's) were off by a bit - some more than others.. I've been rebalancing this for weeks now along with rain, rain tires performance in the dry, and AI rain performance vs palyer. Almost done. My point is that if you were driving the LMP1's then the wear will be quicker than what you have now. I'll run a test there today or tommorow and see what wear i'm getting with a LMP1 car.

A quick test (using my latest wear tweaks) and the player car goes 35 lap +/- which is 2 fuel loads on softs. The car is getting pretty slippery by then. but the AI is seeing that too and even earlier. They only get a bout 20 laps on tires. You should get 3 fuel loads on Hards. This is about 50% more wear (on an LMP car) than you are using in the release version. Not sure why you are giving up on those tires at 12 lap, they should go 3 fuel loads. ;)

BMASTER
03-06-2015, 14:07
A quick test (using my latest wear tweaks) and the player car goes 35 lap +/- which is 2 fuel loads on softs. The car is getting pretty slippery by then. but the AI is seeing that too and even earlier. They only get a bout 20 laps on tires. You should get 3 fuel loads on Hards. This is about 50% more wear (on an LMP car) than you are using in the release version. Not sure why you are giving up on those tires at 12 lap, they should go 3 fuel loads. ;)


I bet he just overdrives them really bad.

Doug914
03-06-2015, 14:42
I bet he just overdrives them really bad.
Yes, well the tire model is complex enough that there are other things that affect the feel over time. The thermal model, for instance, will eventually saturate the tire changing the tread flexabilty and hence the slip angle slightly, as we have both bulk temperature and flash surface temperature, the effects are different. .... I feel this happeneing all the time after 7-10 laps normally, but the wear is still low at that point. The starting tire temps don't fully saturate the tire. That only happens when driving it, which you've probably noticed with a good FFB wheel.

mister dog
03-06-2015, 18:13
Yes, well the tire model is complex enough that there are other things that affect the feel over time. The thermal model, for instance, will eventually saturate the tire changing the tread flexabilty and hence the slip angle slightly, as we have both bulk temperature and flash surface temperature, the effects are different. .... I feel this happeneing all the time after 7-10 laps normally, but the wear is still low at that point. The starting tire temps don't fully saturate the tire. That only happens when driving it, which you've probably noticed with a good FFB wheel.

Doug i have a question about that thermal model, we were actually just discussing this and a friend raised the following point:


I haven't tested it thoroughly but I've noticed it several times. On cars that use tire warmers I come out with four green tires but after two or three laps the fronts turn blue and I can't get them back to green. On cars without tire warmers they come out of the pits blue and the fronts pretty much stay blue (except in the FF Clio). All car non-ffb car settings are default, including tire pressure. The rears seem to be fine, if they start green they stay green and if they start blue they turn green after a few laps.

Is it normal for the front tyres to lose that much temp on default pressures and not regain it, even when racing around for a couple of laps?

RomKnight
03-06-2015, 18:56
Yeah Pcars2 really needs to do saved setups by name of your choosing, like back in gtr2. You could save as many as you liked and name them freely. Plus the game would automaticlly save any current setup you were messing with while in track, so next time you went back in that's what you had. Even if you never specificly saved it.


Do I assume (I know I shouldn't) from this that PCars 1 won't see these things via a future patch?

Also just like to say thanks for clarifying so many things Doug, feedback like I've seen in this thread from yourself really makes me feel valued as a customer and player. Much respect to you and the team for that.


Thanks. Unfortunately it would be too much of a redesign for Pcars1. So yeah, Pcars2.

So, all bets off to have multiple setups per track / per car for pCARS1 after all :(

Doug914
03-06-2015, 19:33
Doug i have a question about that thermal model, we were actually just discussing this and a friend raised the following point:



Is it normal for the front tyres to lose that much temp on default pressures and not regain it, even when racing around for a couple of laps?

Depends on the car. The starting temps are just starting temps. They aren't the temp the tire would normally operate at if warmed up normally from cold. The fronts and rear won't usually perfectly match once the temps stabilize to your driving.

Doug914
03-06-2015, 19:33
So, all bets off to have multiple setups per track / per car for pCARS1 after all :(

It's not my call.

RomKnight
03-06-2015, 20:22
I know Doug. And it really doesn't matter whose call it is. I was just hoping.

I do understand if it messes too much with the code is dangerous do to now.

But it is an important feature and even if I do understand the why on this, most really don't. With time people get accustomed but it'll feel a bit sour I guess, even to me.

aussiejeff
04-06-2015, 00:55
But it is an important feature and even if I do understand the why on this, most really don't. With time people get accustomed but it'll feel a bit sour I guess, even to me.

I understand there may be good reasons that prevent allowing for many setups per car per track.

However, IMHO it would be highly desirable for most PCars simmers to at least have the option of saving 2 basic setups per car per track -

(1) For a Qualifying (or Time Trial) mode setup - where you hammer the car for 1-3 lap Qualy-type screamers.
(2) For a General Race mode setup - where you want the best performance for an extended race of 10-15 laps or so.

Why the pressing need for two setups for hardcore racers?

Because to get anywhere near optimal performance in either mode you generally require quite different tuning in the areas of -

(a) Tyre pressures (you start TT with optimal temps in tyres / brakes) which leads to different pressure strategy to maintain for only 1-3 laps at most.
(b) Brake cooling duct settings (for the many cars that have this, you have to set quite different values to optimise for either TT / Qual vs extended race modes).
(c) Brake bias settings (full race tanks vs 5Litre TT generally requires some subtle difference in brake bias settings)
(d) Suspension height/bump/damper settings (what you can get away with in 1-3 lap screamer usually wont make a good full race setup!)
(e) General handling tweaks (again, I have to make too many subtle adjustments between a TT screamer setup vs if I want to RACE the ruddy thing for 10 laps or so.. grr)
(f) 101 other reasons....including..

(g) ATM I'm concentrating on TT's at the expense of racing because I cant save two basic setups per car per track. I have to overwrite a damn TT setup every time I want to switch modes to endurance racer! It is just way too fiddly and time consuming to keep re-writing my tunes per car per track.

So please guys, could you continue to consider (if at all possible) to allow at least these TWO basic setups per car per track?

It would seriously make my day!

Thanks & keep up the awesome development process. :)
P.S. - I know this is a slight de-railment but there IS a token reference in my post to tyre temp & pressures lol

mcarver2000
04-06-2015, 01:01
Multiple setups: which is why I have at least requested an export/import option. Since it doesn't look as if we will see advanced savings of setups until pCARS 2, it might be doable for an export/import option.

David Semperger
04-06-2015, 09:06
The starting tire temps don't fully saturate the tire. That only happens when driving it, which you've probably noticed with a good FFB wheel.

I assume tire pressure is also somewhat lower when starting a fresh session then. I almost exclusively do Time Trials and noticed that on the first lap the tires feel more grippy, but they also have slightly more rolling resistance, which hinders acceleration. This happens even without tire wear and lower pressures would explain it.

arveena
05-06-2015, 01:02
Hi i have a question regarding Tyrewear I did not found anything in the physics wiki.

I am running in a league with tyrewear set to x7 in the GT3 class
I know the fuel consumption is balanced and different from car to car in the GT3 class as they use different engines and the mclaren is turbocharged for example.
We have now different opinions about tyrewear. Some say the cars use the tyres different like in reallife where some cars can doublestint and some cant some say its always the same and every car uses the tyres the same way.
Now my question is do the cars use the tyres different?
I know some setting like wings camber etc have an influence on that but is a MR car harder or softer to the Tyres than an FR car for example?
Is there a general pattern like car X is good on Tyrewear but worse on fuel?
Or depends it on the Track which car uses more Tyres?

Thanks in Advance

Can someone help me with that?

Umer Ahmad
05-06-2015, 01:07
Currently this an area Doug is adjusting. The goal is to have Hard compounds last 2x fuel loads.

arveena
05-06-2015, 01:18
Yeah thanks but are they different from car to car. Like for example car x having more wear because of its weight ratio or something like that. I found for example that the mclaren is harder to the tyres than the aston for example maybe its because he is MR?
Is this possible?

David Semperger
05-06-2015, 01:22
Can someone help me with that?

Since the defaults setups and physical properties of the cars differ and tyre wear is based on these naturally wear rate will differ between cars as well.

FWD cars will use up their front tires more quickly, while AWD and RWD cars will use them up more equally. Tracks factor into this as well. If you have heavy breaking zones that will increase front wear and frequent acceleration from low speeds will cause the driven wheels to wear more. Generally a more powerful engine in a given class will do the same.

Setup and personal driving style affects all of this to some degree as well. In short, while the characteristics of the cars give them a baseline wear rate and balance many things can affect this.

arveena
05-06-2015, 01:36
Okay thank you but there is something like a baseline wear rate. That fits my tests were all cars are responding to setup changes tracks etc. But still have very minor diferences in wear which on x7 can actually make a difference for like 2 laps depending on car track combination while setting similar laptimes. Thanks for that

So maybe it would be nice to implement fuel accelaration as well so you can actually simulate gt3 strategy like going on hards on some cars. Doublestinting tyres while on others you go soft and change them. Without going for a 6h race for the strategy to effekt the race.

Adam.Freeman
05-06-2015, 13:45
Is there a plan to stop us putting on tyres we cant have on our cars during the pit stops.

In formula C I have soft, medium and Hard choices only in the pits. Surely it should be just slicks and rain tyres since they are the only compounds available in the garage. When I make a stop I never know what tyre goes on the car, is it the softs or the normal formula C slick :S

Bealdor
05-06-2015, 13:48
Is there a plan to stop us putting on tyres we cant have on our cars during the pit stops.

In formula C I have soft, medium and Hard choices only in the pits. Surely it should be just slicks and rain tyres since they are the only compounds available in the garage. When I make a stop I never know what tyre goes on the car, is it the softs or the normal formula C slick :S

You don't get wrong tires. The pit manager only shows generic tire compounds atm. If your car only has one sort of slicks available it doesn't matter what compound you choose in the pit manager.

Awong124
05-06-2015, 15:26
Can there be an option to have tire warmers for every session? It was kind of a novelty in the beginning to start a session on cold tires, but after a while it just becomes tedious to waste time doing a couple of laps to warm the tires.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-06-2015, 20:58
What is the hierarchy or weakness strengths of the non-slick options? Example UHP and XR.The following equations aren't totally accurate, but give you the rough level:

UHP = Ultra High Performance = P Zero = really really good sports tyre for summer. Think real life Michelin Pilot Sport or Pirelli P Zero. (EDIT: I originally wrote "P Zero Corsa" here, when I obviously meant P Zero!)

XR = Extreme = P Zero Corsa = super good sports tyre for summer, essentially a semi-slick. Still road legal, but you'd probably rather leave them for the track, if only for the wear and cost of getting a new set. Think real life P Zero Corsa or Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (2 particularly, which bumped up the performance a LOT compared to previous ones).

Track = P Zero Trofeo = semi-slick intended purely for track use. Might be legal on the roads somewhere in the world. Best grip. (EDIT: Though they aren't as user friendly as the others. They're much more twitchy when cold and feel quite different when warm as well, but I've always easily gotten my fastest laps with these, and they also measure the highest cornering G forces. If the car is soft enough they can also upset the suspension, throwing the body around too much. These tyres require the car to be set up for track use, a street setup doesn't like these tyres that much.)

As for the default tyres they should somewhat comply with what the real car would come with normally. As far as I understand based on the writings of Casey Ringley these should be the default tyres:

Audi R8 V10+: Faretti Extreme Summer (car often seen tested with P Zero Corsa tyres, so fits nicely)
BMW 1-Series M Coupe: Masculin XR Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, I'd swap for UHP tyres for a more OEM experience)
Ford Focus RS: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, fits nicely)
GUMPERT apollo S: Faretti Extreme Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups or at least Pilot Super Sports, so fits nicely)
McLaren 12C: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (often tested with those tyres, but it does come standard with P Zeros, so whichever is fine)
McLaren F1: McLaren F1 (really grippy modern tyres, not replicating the original early 90s rubber, those are supposed to come later. For now treat the car as if it's running the springs and dampers from the road going F1 LM special model and modern tyres)
McLaren P1: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (most commonly tested with these, though often tested with Trofeos as well. I does come standard with P Zeros though, so you can use those as well, but be prepared for a wild ride, and set the diff to open...)
Mercedes A45 AMG: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, so fits well)
Mercedes SLS AMG Coupe: Faretti Extreme Summer (car actually came with lower grip Bridgestones, pretty close to Pilot Sport level, so UHP would be more accurate OEM style for this. The SLS Black came with Pilot Sport Cups though, so fits that.)
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ-400: Masculin XR Summer (car came with Toyo Proxes R1R tyres, which are nearly semislicks, so fits well)
Pagani Huayra: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (definitely more suiting for the car considering what it's capable of, but I think the basic option is still the P Zero. Top Gear used something closer to the Trofeo though, possible even better than those...)
Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (The Zonda F at least came with P Zeros originally, hard to say about this one. Corsas suit it though, but it's more thrilling with the P Zeros. :))
Renault Megane RS 265: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or similar, so very fitting. They have run Nords laps with Pilot Sport Cups on occasion though, so those are suitable as well.)
Ruf CTR3: Faretti Extreme Summer (I found several Ruf cars tested with Pilot Sport Cup tyres, so these make sense.)
Ruf RGT-8: Faretti Extreme Summer (Like above, also the 911 GT3 is usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups, so makes even more sense.)

Daydreaming ensues: Now we just need early 90s vintage tyres for the McLaren F1, one lower grip option for the track day cars (the current tyres aren't exactly unrealistic but they replicate supremely good track tyres, something a bit more down to earth would be a nice option, or heck, even a more normal street tyre like the Yiro All-Season on the Caterham 7 Classic), and then as the final touch those track day tyre options for the Radical SR3-RS and SR8-RX (which are road legal in the UK once you add indicators). Had those at one point during development as an option and they were so insanely fun, also the SR-3 lined up decently well with the Atoms and R500 and the SR-8 was nice against the Atom V8 500. =)

Roger Prynne
06-06-2015, 21:19
Nice one Jussi... I thought you might chip in at some point.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
07-06-2015, 09:50
Yeah, I'll try to increase my presence here in the future. =)

Blvd69
07-06-2015, 16:56
Im new to the game so I don't have info just yet but i do know it all depends on the track and car you use.
Regardless however tires will always wear in any given race...just depends if its soft or hard...which goes back to the track.....vicious circle...lol
Once I get a new CPU System...then I will know better.
My web site is....
http://blvd69crew.weebly.com

http://blvd69crew.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/9/4/31949407/2932776_orig.png

LordDRIFT
08-06-2015, 15:08
The following equations aren't totally accurate, but give you the rough level:

UHP = Ultra High Performance = P Zero = really really good sports tyre for summer. Think real life Michelin Pilot Sport or Pirelli P Zero Corsa.

XR = Extreme = P Zero Corsa = super good sports tyre for summer, essentially a semi-slick. Still road legal, but you'd probably rather leave them for the track, if only for the wear and cost of getting a new set. Think real life P Zero Corsa or Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (2 particularly, which bumped up the performance a LOT compared to previous ones).

Track = P Zero Trofeo = semi-slick intended purely for track use. Might be legal on the roads somewhere in the world. Best grip. (EDIT: Though they aren't as user friendly as the others. They're much more twitchy when cold and feel quite different when warm as well, but I've always easily gotten my fastest laps with these, and they also measure the highest cornering G forces. If the car is soft enough they can also upset the suspension, throwing the body around too much. These tyres require the car to be set up for track use, a street setup doesn't like these tyres that much.)

As for the default tyres they should somewhat comply with what the real car would come with normally. As far as I understand based on the writings of Casey Ringley these should be the default tyres:

Audi R8 V10+: Faretti Extreme Summer (car often seen tested with P Zero Corsa tyres, so fits nicely)
BMW 1-Series M Coupe: Masculin XR Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, I'd swap for UHP tyres for a more OEM experience)
Ford Focus RS: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, fits nicely)
GUMPERT apollo S: Faretti Extreme Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups or at least Pilot Super Sports, so fits nicely)
McLaren 12C: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (often tested with those tyres, but it does come standard with P Zeros, so whichever is fine)
McLaren F1: McLaren F1 (really grippy modern tyres, not replicating the original early 90s rubber, those are supposed to come later. For now treat the car as if it's running the springs and dampers from the road going F1 LM special model and modern tyres)
McLaren P1: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (most commonly tested with these, though often tested with Trofeos as well. I does come standard with P Zeros though, so you can use those as well, but be prepared for a wild ride, and set the diff to open...)
Mercedes A45 AMG: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or equivalents, so fits well)
Mercedes SLS AMG Coupe: Faretti Extreme Summer (car actually came with lower grip Bridgestones, pretty close to Pilot Sport level, so UHP would be more accurate OEM style for this. The SLS Black came with Pilot Sport Cups though, so fits that.)
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ-400: Masculin XR Summer (car came with Toyo Proxes R1R tyres, which are nearly semislicks, so fits well)
Pagani Huayra: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (definitely more suiting for the car considering what it's capable of, but I think the basic option is still the P Zero. Top Gear used something closer to the Trofeo though, possible even better than those...)
Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster: Pirelli P Zero Corsa (The Zonda F at least came with P Zeros originally, hard to say about this one. Corsas suit it though, but it's more thrilling with the P Zeros. :))
Renault Megane RS 265: Masculin UHP Summer (car usually tested with Pilot Sports or similar, so very fitting. They have run Nords laps with Pilot Sport Cups on occasion though, so those are suitable as well.)
Ruf CTR3: Faretti Extreme Summer (I found several Ruf cars tested with Pilot Sport Cup tyres, so these make sense.)
Ruf RGT-8: Faretti Extreme Summer (Like above, also the 911 GT3 is usually tested with Pilot Sport Cups, so makes even more sense.)

Daydreaming ensues: Now we just need early 90s vintage tyres for the McLaren F1, one lower grip option for the track day cars (the current tyres aren't exactly unrealistic but they replicate supremely good track tyres, something a bit more down to earth would be a nice option, or heck, even a more normal street tyre like the Yiro All-Season on the Caterham 7 Classic), and then as the final touch those track day tyre options for the Radical SR3-RS and SR8-RX (which are road legal in the UK once you add indicators). Had those at one point during development as an option and they were so insanely fun, also the SR-3 lined up decently well with the Atoms and R500 and the SR-8 was nice against the Atom V8 500. =)

Awesome - thanks.

MLT24
08-06-2015, 15:58
I did a test. Stockcar at the Glen. x6 and 20 laps. That should be equal to 120 laps. On last 4 laps if I felt a difference it wasn't enough to say for sure the tires were slicker. 120 laps.

Doug914
08-06-2015, 20:36
I did a test. Stockcar at the Glen. x6 and 20 laps. That should be equal to 120 laps. On last 4 laps if I felt a difference it wasn't enough to say for sure the tires were slicker. 120 laps.

Short or Long course? Short I'm assuming

arveena
10-06-2015, 00:38
Another question. Is x1 the same as real. If not this could explain the high numbers when someone trys to find out the laps at real tyrewear from accelarted wear.

Doug914
10-06-2015, 01:16
Err, good question. I'd assume it is (i never used it myself). I'd have to ask my main man Steve about it next week. I'm off for the rest of the week.
I'll check these forums as much as i can while away though :)

FACT0RY PIL0T
10-06-2015, 03:56
The whole tire model in my OP is lacking all around in realistic trates. Its my main gripe with this title that holds back the dynamics. But still enjoy driving it, and dont think ive missed a day since release.

Jan Studenski
10-06-2015, 12:34
The whole tire model in my OP is lacking all around in realistic trates. Its my main gripe with this title that holds back the dynamics. But still enjoy driving it, and dont think ive missed a day since release.

interesting Opinion - can you make some examples so i can better understand what you mean?

Greez

Umer Ahmad
10-06-2015, 19:08
The whole tire model in my OP is lacking all around in realistic trates. Its my main gripe with this title that holds back the dynamics. But still enjoy driving it, and dont think ive missed a day since release.
Let me guess, you want less longitudinal grip so you can do donuts or standing burn-outs?

Roger Prynne
10-06-2015, 19:30
The tyre physics are the best of any game yet IMHO, if you could only see the amount of work/time that has gone into them like I have for the last 3 1/2 years.
They model just about every aspect of a real tyre right down to the webbing.

FACT0RY PIL0T
10-06-2015, 23:31
Formula A:

Ok lets compare Kimis smoke show at Canada this weekend to the game, if ya do the same as he did you dont drive away, you sit there floudering around waiting for the model to say ok thats enough time you let it sit, and you went and cooked dinner you can drive now.

Its a comon thing I see in tire models this exagerated point then its just forget it.* Go watch guys in gt3 cup cars sliding around fighting for grip half lock catching it at times mid turn at high speed but no drop off and spin like the simulated model.

Heck even in a real formula ford ive spun 180 doing 85mph, then spun it back around and carried on with no loss of grip because the tires got a little hotter.

And id be willing to bet that most in the testing of it never get it to these points that most of the top 100+ guys in the world get it to for tire temps, so how do you build a model to something you never experience?

I can do 2 hard laps and the abbused tire temp jumps 20+ deg and then its over and the real world you will see more than 2 hard laps in a race before the drop in performance.

If all the cars were slowed down then maybe the model is right or semi close to right, but as it is with the speeds im seeing etc etc it's off in my Op,* and overly exagerated, and Im just one OP

Dont take this all wrong sometimes I dont put things the best way, but hopefully it makes some sense, and sometimes I feel like the real issue is the Tire Temp part of the model is actually the lacking part I was originally talking about.

arveena
11-06-2015, 02:12
Formula A:

Ok lets compare Kimis smoke show at Canada this weekend to the game, if ya do the same as he did you dont drive away, you sit there floudering around waiting for the model to say ok thats enough time you let it sit, and you went and cooked dinner you can drive now.

Its a comon thing I see in tire models this exagerated point then its just forget it.* Go watch guys in gt3 cup cars sliding around fighting for grip half lock catching it at times mid turn at high speed but no drop off and spin like the simulated model.

Heck even in a real formula ford ive spun 180 doing 85mph, then spun it back around and carried on with no loss of grip because the tires got a little hotter.

And id be willing to bet that most in the testing of it never get it to these points that most of the top 100+ guys in the world get it to for tire temps, so how do you build a model to something you never experience?

I can do 2 hard laps and the abbused tire temp jumps 20+ deg and then its over and the real world you will see more than 2 hard laps in a race before the drop in performance.

If all the cars were slowed down then maybe the model is right or semi close to right, but as it is with the speeds im seeing etc etc it's off in my Op,* and overly exagerated, and Im just one OP

Dont take this all wrong sometimes I dont put things the best way, but hopefully it makes some sense, and sometimes I feel like the real issue is the Tire Temp part of the model is actually the lacking part I was originally talking about.

I thought the same driven some slick cars IRL and racing karts on national level and i think its not that sudden its more linear in Reallife hard to describe. But you dont get such a massive dropoff after overheating them for a few laps you ruin your tyres more slowly in Reallife more subtle. Nevertheless i like the model when you keep the temps in check imho the only Simulation who does this spot on. Like loosing grip first on the most used tyres resulting in different reactions from the car depending on track and wear really good work here! Even if I dont look at the Telemetry i can tell which tyre is the hottest and or most used thats really really good work! Just by how the car feels and reacts

Only if you spin or overuse the tyres on braking or acceleration sliding and such its a bit too much loss of grip until you get temps back in check.

Also i found the Flatspot or used tyre Vibration to much on the G27 but i guess that is more of a FFB issue.

FACT0RY PIL0T
11-06-2015, 02:42
I thought the same driven some slick cars IRL and racing karts on national level and i think its not that sudden its more linear in Reallife hard to describe. But you dont get such a massive dropoff after overheating them for a few laps you ruin your tyres more slowly in Reallife more subtle. Nevertheless i like the model when you keep the temps in check imho the only Simulation who does this spot on. Like loosing grip first on the most used tyres resulting in different reactions from the car depending on track and wear really good work here! Even if I dont look at the Telemetry i can tell which tyre is the hottest and or most used thats really really good work! Just by how the car feels and reacts

Only if you spin or overuse the tyres on braking or acceleration sliding and such its a bit too much loss of grip until you get temps back in check.

Also i found the Flatspot or used tyre Vibration to much on the G27 but i guess that is more of a FFB issue.Exactley what I meant about the drop off.* But Im wondering if theres a bug in it, for example free practice or TT straight out of the pits the tires are showing 252 in temp all 4 corners, and optimal grip seems is around 221-228 , and front and rear brakes are at 1500+, but it acts like its got no brakes, and no grip totally on ice like the tires are cold.

But if I park the car let the tires drop to 120 and start driving it reacts normal once back to around 220 but then it just jumps up to 257-262 one abbused tire and the others jump into the 242-252 range, but doesn't ever feel like on ice like it did right out of the pits just a small loss of grip.

Frippe
11-06-2015, 09:54
Everyone says the tire model is so awesome and good in this game, and I am sure it is pretty good.

But some things seems to be missing. I took the Lycan out, did nothing but burn rubber, and sure. They got very hot. But couldn't get them over 144 degrees and never did they break. I burned them so long I ran out of gas instead. Haven't tested with other cars.

On another note, it would be nice with visual representation of the wear. Mine looked as good as new after burning rubber for a long time.

BMASTER
11-06-2015, 10:00
Everyone says the tire model is so awesome and good in this game, and I am sure it is pretty good.

But some things seems to be missing. I took the Lycan out, did nothing but burn rubber, and sure. They got very hot. But couldn't get them over 144 degrees and never did they break. I burned them so long I ran out of gas instead. Haven't tested with other cars.

On another note, it would be nice with visual representation of the wear. Mine looked as good as new after burning rubber for a long time.

The tire model isn't even close to being as good as in rFactor 2, that's for sure. Also, pcars doesn't have visual tire wear. I don't even know about one sim, that visually shows tire wear.

Bealdor
11-06-2015, 10:03
Everyone says the tire model is so awesome and good in this game, and I am sure it is pretty good.

But some things seems to be missing. I took the Lycan out, did nothing but burn rubber, and sure. They got very hot. But couldn't get them over 144 degrees and never did they break. I burned them so long I ran out of gas instead. Haven't tested with other cars.

On another note, it would be nice with visual representation of the wear. Mine looked as good as new after burning rubber for a long time.

Tire wear and blowouts are on the conservative side atm and will be finetuned over time (first bunch of adjustments with patch 1.4).


The tire model isn't even close to being as good as in rFactor 2, that's my opinion.

FTFY

Equation
11-06-2015, 10:06
I hope that some update they apply percent numers to show you how good you tires are. 100 % are brand new other are used.

Formula A needs those differend tyres more than 3.

Frippe
11-06-2015, 10:14
The tire model isn't even close to being as good as in rFactor 2, that's for sure. Also, pcars doesn't have visual tire wear. I don't even know about one sim, that visually shows tire wear.

This movie is pretty cool showing visual tire wear from rFactor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZWeEoOxKKw

FarChri
11-06-2015, 10:22
This movie is pretty cool showing visual tire wear from rFactor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZWeEoOxKKw

Looks very cool!

BMASTER
11-06-2015, 10:50
This movie is pretty cool showing visual tire wear from rFactor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZWeEoOxKKw

I knew about the flatspotting, but not about visual tirewear. Thx

Adam.Freeman
11-06-2015, 12:01
what differences will happen with the tyres in the new patch 1.4?

Will everyone have a more similar tyre deg now :)

arveena
11-06-2015, 14:43
what differences will happen with the tyres in the new patch 1.4?

Will everyone have a more similar tyre deg now :)

Yeah there is something wrong there. I was running a league Race yesterday 1h tyrewear x7 with the GT3 class at spa. In the league I am running there are 3 PC Splits depending on skill level 3 PS4 Splits and 2 Xboxone Splits all with a full grid.
After the first Race in Road America there was a discussion that tyrewear might be different between the cars and with x7 it was a huge cap. We could not confirm it and also it was not to bad as the Tyres were relative close in laptimes from soft to hard a difference like 1.5sek.
This time though on a more demanding track for the tyres it was quite a massive difference. In every split the Aston and the z4 seem to have a huge advantage as the could go soft/soft for 25 laps without looking to much after the tyres.
In the Mclaren for example the softtyres were gone at lap 8. Resulting in them needing to go 2 stop or HARD/HARD which is like 3.5sek slower a lap at least. Also one Aston won a split by not pitting at all. Thats is not even close to possible in other cars.

I am not complaining about this as obviously some cars have better tyrewear and if you speed it up 7 times faster it will make more off a difference but for league racing its not optimal and there should be at least a Fuel Accelartion option so the cars with more tyrewear and less fuel consumption can gain there time back by less refueling or an option to make a mandatory pitstop in Multiplayer so you can force pitstops without speeding up tyrewear and spreading the field.
Also hope they are closer to each other on wear in upcoming patches.

This is not a single opinion it was tested over the course of 2 league races with A LOT of practice with super fast guys to slower ones and with more than 120 drivers. Of course sometimes its not as drastic when you have someone who has a smotth driving style sitting in a car with lots of wear. But even then he will be using more rubber than an aggressive driver in a car which has less wear.

Also setups to reduce tyrewear were tested it makes a difference but nut that much.

Maybe it is also just a bug so see this as a bug report then.

Edit. Also that Rfactor video looks way to overdone and silly not realistic at all. That flatspot looks like he was doing a 200meter lockup from highspeed while he did a small one without smoke etc. Also the wear is rubbish did they ever tried to ruin a profiled tyre by driving on the track and looked at it^^

Frippe
11-06-2015, 15:11
Also that Rfactor video looks way to overdone and silly not realistic at all. That flatspot looks like he was doing a 200meter lockup from highspeed while he did a small one without smoke etc. Also the wear is rubbish did they ever tried to ruin a profiled tyre by driving on the track and looked at it^^

Well, the video states that the wear is increased by a 100x. I guess to make it easier to show in a video.

David Wright
11-06-2015, 19:49
The tire model isn't even close to being as good as in rFactor 2, that's for sure. Also, pcars doesn't have visual tire wear. I don't even know about one sim, that visually shows tire wear.

Shame ISIs rF2 model didn't adjust tread temperatures properly with tyre pressure for three years - rather more basic than visual tyre wear. The recently released contact patch model apparently fixes this issue but its only incorporated on a small number of cars.

I'm pretty sure NetKar Pro included visible tyre wear. Not sure if Kunos carried this over to Assetto Corsa.

Umer Ahmad
11-06-2015, 20:40
SMS tyre modeler was pretty strict about Pv = nRT and actually project cars tyres have temperatures readings at 3 levels:
A. Surface
B. Layer
C. Carcass

(Think i got that right). The Motec and telemetry show you the Layer temps iirc but all 3 are exported via the data API. The surface behaves like those F1 thermal cameras

David Semperger
11-06-2015, 20:47
The Motec and telemetry show you the Layer temps iirc but all 3 are exported via the data API. The surface behaves like those F1 thermal cameras

I think it was switched over to carcass temps during development, but I'm not sure.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
12-06-2015, 03:51
SMS tyre modeler was pretty strict about Pv = nRT and actually project cars tyres have temperatures readings at 3 levels:
A. Surface
B. Layer
C. Carcass

(Think i got that right). The Motec and telemetry show you the Layer temps iirc but all 3 are exported via the data API. The surface behaves like those F1 thermal camerasThe rubber temps are modeled in more layers than that IIRC, but not all of them are reported through the API.

Kitt
12-06-2015, 08:39
Had a wet gt3 28 lap race at laguna seca,pitted on lap 3 for mandatory pit stop in 10th place,put on intermediate tyres.The rain stopped on lap 10,so thought I would carry on till my tyres were worn out on a dry track,but was able to carry on till the end with only one front tyre showing any over heating and still lots of grip {putting in fast sector times on last lap}.The AI pitted twice,one mandatory stop and another for dry tyres {I would guess},this of course then put me into first place.Surely I should not have been able to drive for 18 laps in a big heavy gt3 car on a hot dry track for 18 laps with wet tyres,without some loss of grip?.

Bealdor
12-06-2015, 08:42
Had a wet gt3 28 lap race at laguna seca,pitted on lap 3 for mandatory pit stop in 10th place,put on intermediate tyres.The rain stopped on lap 10,so thought I would carry on till my tyres were worn out on a dry track,but was able to carry on till the end with only one front tyre showing any over heating and still lots of grip {putting in fast sector times on last lap}.The AI pitted twice,one mandatory stop and another for dry tyres {I would guess},this of course then put me into first place.Surely I should not have been able to drive for 18 laps in a big heavy gt3 car on a hot dry track for 18 laps with wet tyres,without some loss of grip?.

Too low (rain) tire wear is a known issue and is already worked on. The fix didn't make it in patch 1.4 though.

Kitt
12-06-2015, 08:55
Ah right thought that was in this patch.So slick tyre wear being to low,is now fixed,and in the 1.4 patch?

Bealdor
12-06-2015, 09:07
Ah right thought that was in this patch.So slick tyre wear being to low,is now fixed,and in the 1.4 patch?

Only tire wear adjustments for the AI made it in the patch (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?29158-Project-CARS-All-Platforms-Upcoming-Patch-1-4-Release-notes-OUT-NOW-on-PC).

Kitt
12-06-2015, 10:21
The cars they used were some of the worst as i noted above. The Formula Gulf and the GT3 cars. Already fixed here.. :)

Says its fixed here?

David Semperger
12-06-2015, 10:23
Says its fixed here?

Here meaning in Doug's internal build. It's possible that they sent the 1.4 patch out for approval before those fixes made it in, or maybe patch notes simply don't reflect all the changes. The latter happens fairly often with games in general.

Kitt
12-06-2015, 10:38
Can we have a definitive answer,are there any player car tyre wear fixes in this patch,on any car.If not I take it it will be in the next patch.

RomKnight
12-06-2015, 10:44
Read above... pretty clear.

Kitt
12-06-2015, 10:53
Ok,well at least the fuel pressure gauge has been fixed LMAO

Bealdor
12-06-2015, 10:58
Ok,well at least the fuel pressure gauge has been fixed LMAO

And 67(!) other "little issues" btw.
No need for sarcastic comments just because your "must have" fix didn't make it.

ElvisKnight86
13-06-2015, 00:42
I cannot run in heavy rain at all. I put on wets and all my car does is either always spin on throttle or the tires burn up. Do I suck or do I have a lot of learning to do or both?

BMASTER
13-06-2015, 07:51
I cannot run in heavy rain at all. I put on wets and all my car does is either always spin on throttle or the tires burn up. Do I suck or do I have a lot of learning to do or both?

Some cars if not every car has a set of tires called extreme wet or something similar, try these if you didn't already. Also, which car are you driving? Do you play with a Gamepad or wheel and pedals?

mister dog
14-06-2015, 11:44
@Doug i've been asking around and the AI still does not pit for wet tyres when it starts raining after 1.4...
They keep on running on their magic slicks unaffected, whilst the player has to pit just like it was before.

From another user on GTP:


Morever in career mode in GT5 they still do their mandatory pit stop on the last lap. This is what i just experienced in GT5 silverstone round.

Doug914
16-06-2015, 11:26
@Doug i've been asking around and the AI still does not pit for wet tyres when it starts raining after 1.4...
They keep on running on their magic slicks unaffected, whilst the player has to pit just like it was before.

From another user on GTP:

Thats because they are already on rain tires (probably near a start i'm guessing). Their prediction is too good, looks too far out. The real magic is that the AI rain tires are too good in the dry in this example. They should have started to burn up by then. We can't do anything with that, So we are knocking down the prediction in the next patch by 1/2 or 1/3 the amount they look out in the future so they are starting on slicks. I know it's confusing :) . But lets just wait till the next patch.

mister dog
16-06-2015, 12:50
Thats because they are already on rain tires (probably near a start i'm guessing). Their prediction is too good, looks too far out. The real magic is that the AI rain tires are too good in the dry in this example. They should have started to burn up by then. We can't do anything with that, So we are knocking down the prediction in the next patch by 1/2 or 1/3 the amount they look out in the future so they are starting on slicks. I know it's confusing :) . But lets just wait till the next patch.
Thanks for the reply.
So if i understand this correctly there were 3 separate issues:

-AI unaffected driving on slicks in rain
-AI doesn't pit when conditions change
-AI already fits wet tyres at the start of a dry race before it starts raining.

Issues 1 &2 were addressed in 1.4, but it looks exactly the same due to issue 3?

Good to hear this will all be fixed with the next patch, hope it comes soon so we can finally continue those careers :)

FuriousDemon
16-06-2015, 13:38
Thanks for the reply.
So if i understand this correctly there were 3 separate issues:

-AI unaffected driving on slicks in rain
-AI doesn't pit when conditions change
-AI already fits wet tyres at the start of a dry race before it starts raining.

Issues 1 &2 were addressed in 1.4, but it looks exactly the same due to issue 3?

Good to hear this will all be fixed with the next patch, hope it comes soon so we can finally continue those careers :)

Yep, I think you're correct.
As a test, you can try to run a longer race with 4 weather slots and put it like clear-clear-clear-rain, with weather scale of maybe 5x or so. See what happens when it starts raining then. Hopefully, AI won't be able to predict the weather 4 slots into the future, and will actually start on slicks.

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 13:47
Guys is the tire wear multiplier working? We are able to run 19 laps at imola or 14 st silverstone no problem on softs. If a set of softs last 45 mins in real life shouldn't they only last about 7 minutes at 7x? We don't have mechanical failures on. Does this effect tire wear? Is 7x broken? I've been searching and other guys are running too far on 7x but I don't see that anyone is saying this is a issue that is being fixed. Anyone have any insight into this?

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 13:53
We don't have mechanical failures on. Does this effect tire wear?

I don't think it does, but the general damage option definitely did in the past. I haven't tested it in a while though. To be sure though, general damage should be enabled either fully or set to performance impacting only.

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 13:54
We don't have mechanical failures on. Does this effect tire wear?

I don't think it does, but the general damage option definitely did in the past, without it tires didn't wear at all. I haven't tested this in a while though. To be sure, general damage should be enabled either fully or set to performance impacting only if you want tire wear.

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 13:56
Ok, I'll check with my guys to see how they have set that part of room up. I'm never the host. That's good to know. Is this a known issue with tires not wearing or is it though to be working correctly?

mister dog
16-06-2015, 14:00
Guys is the tire wear multiplier working? We are able to run 19 laps at imola or 14 st silverstone no problem on softs. If a set of softs last 45 mins in real life shouldn't they only last about 7 minutes at 7x? We don't have mechanical failures on. Does this effect tire wear? Is 7x broken? I've been searching and other guys are running too far on 7x but I don't see that anyone is saying this is a issue that is being fixed. Anyone have any insight into this?
Doug gave a reply on the 2nd page regarding some cars experiencing almost no wear:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27185-GOOD-INFO-INSIDE!-tyre-wear&p=936029&viewfull=1#post936029

Was the car you tried one of those?

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 14:16
Yes we race gt3 so that is what I was looking for.

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 14:24
Ok, I'll check with my guys to see how they have set that part of room up. I'm never the host. That's good to know. Is this a known issue with tires not wearing or is it though to be working correctly?

You can disregard what I've said, you don't need to enable any damage to experience tire wear. I can also confirm that the 7x tire wear setting works, although in my short test it increased wear to only about six times that of the real setting. I think that's easily explained by variance in my driving, especially at increased wear rates.

I did my tests at Imola with soft slicks on the SLS AMG GT3 and by using Tom Shane's Profiler (http://www.tomshane.cz/profiler/), each time doing just 2 laps. With no damage and real wear the tires still felt fresh during the second lap, but the Profiler clearly showed that the tires were indeed wearing, albeit slowly. With 7x tire wear and still no damage the tires very clearly felt less grippy during the second lap and the telemetry captured by the Profiler confirmed this.

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 14:32
Ok cool. Do you think you could do 19 laps at imola on softs without a issue?

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 15:06
Ok cool. Do you think you could do 19 laps at imola on softs without a issue?

At 7x wear? i doubt it, like I said I could already feel the negative effects of wear by the second lap. I don't think the car would remain driveable for more than 8-10 laps.

At normal wear? Sure, although by lap 19 the wear could be clearly felt even then.

Roger Prynne
16-06-2015, 15:15
You should be able to do at least a full tank of fuel on one set of tyres on normal wear.

David Semperger
16-06-2015, 15:16
You should be able to do at least a full tank of fuel on one set of tyres on normal wear.

I can give it a shot if people are interested. I could also record my results with the Profiler and share them when I'm done.

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 15:18
so do you think its a console issue? we tested last night on Imola with 4 guys 7x tire wear in GT3. 1 on hard and had no issues other than keeping temps up. I ran medium and 19 laps where no problem and the two guys that ran softs started to get lose around lap 17 but finished in the front. We could go 14 laps silverstone on softs. This is a mix of wheel and controller. We run a 7x tire wear series but its kinda pointless as you don't even have to pit because tires can go way too long.

N0body Of The Goat
16-06-2015, 15:28
Ok cool. Do you think you could do 19 laps at imola on softs without a issue?

As far as I'm aware, accelerated tyre wear happens when tyres get hotter than optimum in pCARS. The issue for some time that I've reported on numerous occasions is that on tracks with few/no high speed corners (Imola, Monza etc.), GT3 Soft Slicks with default pressure lose massive amounts of temperature, at least with the BMW M3 GT. I'm talking temps dropping to <60C at Imola within a handful of laps, the sort of temp where at other tracks, this would not happen unless a more intensive rain mode was active.

It is not wear that hinders my racing pace at Imola in the BMW M3 GT, it is stone cold tyres and consequent low grip... Unless I drastically lower the default pressure from 2.20F/2.10R to ~1.75F/1.65R, but even then IIRC, I'm very rarely seeing temps >100C that would induce higher tyre wear rates.

arveena
16-06-2015, 15:40
Yeah there is something wrong there. I was running a league Race yesterday 1h tyrewear x7 with the GT3 class at spa. In the league I am running there are 3 PC Splits depending on skill level 3 PS4 Splits and 2 Xboxone Splits all with a full grid.
After the first Race in Road America there was a discussion that tyrewear might be different between the cars and with x7 it was a huge cap. We could not confirm it and also it was not to bad as the Tyres were relative close in laptimes from soft to hard a difference like 1.5sek.
This time though on a more demanding track for the tyres it was quite a massive difference. In every split the Aston and the z4 seem to have a huge advantage as the could go soft/soft for 25 laps without looking to much after the tyres.
In the Mclaren for example the softtyres were gone at lap 8. Resulting in them needing to go 2 stop or HARD/HARD which is like 3.5sek slower a lap at least. Also one Aston won a split by not pitting at all. Thats is not even close to possible in other cars.

I am not complaining about this as obviously some cars have better tyrewear and if you speed it up 7 times faster it will make more off a difference but for league racing its not optimal and there should be at least a Fuel Accelartion option so the cars with more tyrewear and less fuel consumption can gain there time back by less refueling or an option to make a mandatory pitstop in Multiplayer so you can force pitstops without speeding up tyrewear and spreading the field.
Also hope they are closer to each other on wear in upcoming patches.

This is not a single opinion it was tested over the course of 2 league races with A LOT of practice with super fast guys to slower ones and with more than 120 drivers. Of course sometimes its not as drastic when you have someone who has a smotth driving style sitting in a car with lots of wear. But even then he will be using more rubber than an aggressive driver in a car which has less wear.

Also setups to reduce tyrewear were tested it makes a difference but nut that much.

Maybe it is also just a bug so see this as a bug report then.


Also in the GT3 class it highly depends on the car which is fine on real wear. For example in Le Mans Aston Martin could run triple stints on all compunds while Porsche was struggeling to do doubles on the hards.
So every GT3 has its different wear ingame but if you change the setting to x7 it is a huge difference. We are currently running Watkins Glen and the Astons and z4 can go 34 with soft/soft while other cars need to do hard/hard because even with medium they cant get to half distance and with softs they would need to 3 stop.
So I think a mandatory Pitstop function needs to be put into the game so you can drive on real and have pitstops in a race which is not more than 3h long.
Atm when you accel tyrewear some cars have massive advantages.
Also to the pressure problem from the post above. It depends on the car you are running also. The M3 seems to be very light on tyrewear because of what you discribed other cars can easily go over 115 Celsius with default Pressure settings but of course will eat the Tyres in doing so. In the Mclaren for example i cant get them under 100 on watkinsglen even with soft springs low downforce adjusted pressures and 100% brake cooling

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 15:44
Nobody, thats kinda par for what im running. I run about 1.90 in front and 1.80 in back there. I find that running 2 and under everywhere has been par for the course so far. Makes sense. Silverstone was low wear also. The guy that won ran two laps on wets and on lap two it started to slack off and he put softs on and finished the last 12 laps on softs at 7x and won by 30 seconds and no problem with grip. We are confused as to what is going on.

Fight-Test
16-06-2015, 15:59
awesome info arveena!

is the fact that the tires are wearing different hurting the competitiveness of your league?

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
16-06-2015, 19:14
I cannot run in heavy rain at all. I put on wets and all my car does is either always spin on throttle or the tires burn up. Do I suck or do I have a lot of learning to do or both?While I'm not 100% clear on what the situation is right now, in the past I've driven several times around Nordschleife in Thunderstorm conditions (before Thunderstorm was nerfed to what Heavy Rain was back then, and Heavy Rain nerfed a bit below that) and it was definitely entirely doable and raceable, but quite difficult as you'd expect. I've seen cars spin off the road in real life at 60 mph in severe rain due to aquaplaning, etc. I was somewhere around a minute slower around Nords in Thunderstorm than in dry back then. Heavy rain is supposed to be exactly that: Really heavy rain. That and the Thunderstorm aren't that far off from "call of the race" levels of race in many series.

In other news:


Daydreaming ensues: Now we just need early 90s vintage tyres for the McLaren F1

This actually happened, in the latest update the McLaren F1 got a new set of tyres, the CTR Denloc D40, which are more or less this. They're new tyres to the game from what I see and might get some tweaking still, but they're much closer, instead of the 1.25-1.3 Gs easy the old McLaren F1 tyres could pull off, these are more in the 1.05-1.10 G region a lot of the time. I do hope they'll end up closer to about 0.95-1.00 G once the devs are done with them though, but at least it finally means I can use my original spec OEM setup for the McLaren F1, that replicates how bloody soft the car really was originally. No rear anti-roll bar, suspension about as soft as a modern M3 (which is by no means a stiffly sprung car), and a lot of body roll even at pretty low speeds on tyres barely capable of 1 G laterally:

208012

A racing car for the road it certainly was not. For that you need the F1 LM special edition. =)

Awong124
16-06-2015, 19:25
This actually happened, in the latest update the McLaren F1 got a new set of tyres, the CTR Denloc D40, which are more or less this. They're new tyres to the game from what I see and might get some tweaking still, but they're much closer, instead of the 1.25-1.3 Gs easy the old McLaren F1 tyres could pull off, these are more in the 1.05-1.10 G region a lot of the time. I do hope they'll end up closer to about 0.95-1.00 G once the devs are done with them though, but at least it finally means I can use my original spec OEM setup for the McLaren F1, that replicates how bloody soft the car really was originally. No rear anti-roll bar, suspension about as soft as a modern M3 (which is by no means a stiffly sprung car), and a lot of body roll even at pretty low speeds on tyres barely capable of 1 G laterally:

A racing car for the road it certainly was not. For that you need the F1 LM special edition. =)

I think magazine tests of the McLaren F1 only generated something like 0.87g on the skidpad, which is pretty sad by today's standards.

Doug914
16-06-2015, 20:21
so do you think its a console issue? we tested last night on Imola with 4 guys 7x tire wear in GT3. 1 on hard and had no issues other than keeping temps up. I ran medium and 19 laps where no problem and the two guys that ran softs started to get lose around lap 17 but finished in the front. We could go 14 laps silverstone on softs. This is a mix of wheel and controller. We run a 7x tire wear series but its kinda pointless as you don't even have to pit because tires can go way too long.

What will get released in the next patch is some where around 2.5 to 3x more wear on the GT3 cars soft slicks. It will do a full fuel load on softs, but driver and track dependant if the softs are the right choice. mediums will get about 30-40% bette wear and hards almost double. At 7x wear the softs are lasting 5 laps or so.
The wear changes are not the same across the board all cars, . But everything got looked at.

Doug914
16-06-2015, 20:30
Thanks for the reply.
So if i understand this correctly there were 3 separate issues:

-AI unaffected driving on slicks in rain
-AI doesn't pit when conditions change
-AI already fits wet tyres at the start of a dry race before it starts raining.

Issues 1 &2 were addressed in 1.4, but it looks exactly the same due to issue 3?

Good to hear this will all be fixed with the next patch, hope it comes soon so we can finally continue those careers :)

Yes some of it will look sorta the same becuase the AI is so good at knowing the weather and not getting penalized for running rain tires for more than 2 laps while waiting for the rain to start. Again the best solution is going to be keeping them off the wrong tires to begin with (or limiting it to a resonable amount).

mister dog
16-06-2015, 20:56
Yes some of it will look sorta the same becuase the AI is so good at knowing the weather and not getting penalized for running rain tires for more than 2 laps while waiting for the rain to start. Again the best solution is going to be keeping them off the wrong tires to begin with (or limiting it to a resonable amount).
So basically their wet tyres are immune to dry asphalt at the moment, as they can set equal times to the player who is running slicks, but as soon as it actually starts raining and the track is getting wet they get slower lol. :)

Umer Ahmad
16-06-2015, 21:53
Doug, (or Casey)

What factors influence "wear"? Is heat a "direct" variable in the wear equation?

Some people were wondering how heat influences wear.

Roger Prynne
16-06-2015, 21:57
^^

• Flash Heating, which is the change of temperature in the outermost rubber layer through the contact
patch.
• Componentized grip model. Each component is affected differently by road surface conditions,
wetness, and temperature.
• Deformation – the rubber deforming in and around asperities, resisting sliding motion.
• Adhesion – the rubber bonding to surface rubber and material.
• Tack – the sticky tacky grip you can feel on your shoes when walking a rubbered in track, related to
adhesion.
• Tearing – the ripping of rubber from the tire
• Cut – grip from the geometry, edges, grooves, and siping of the tread, with particular effect in dirt and
gravel
• Tread channel depth and water handling.
• Discretized and temperature sensitive wear
• Curing
• Temperature sensitive elastic properties

KartKingCorre
16-06-2015, 22:50
^^

• Flash Heating, which is the change of temperature in the outermost rubber layer through the contact
patch.
• Componentized grip model. Each component is affected differently by road surface conditions,
wetness, and temperature.
• Deformation – the rubber deforming in and around asperities, resisting sliding motion.
• Adhesion – the rubber bonding to surface rubber and material.
• Tack – the sticky tacky grip you can feel on your shoes when walking a rubbered in track, related to
adhesion.
• Tearing – the ripping of rubber from the tire
• Cut – grip from the geometry, edges, grooves, and siping of the tread, with particular effect in dirt and
gravel
• Tread channel depth and water handling.
• Discretized and temperature sensitive wear
• Curing
• Temperature sensitive elastic properties

I have a question:
The tearing, tack and curing you are talking about. Do you mean the rubber getting teared off the tyre, tacked on the asfalt (the darker part of the track) and then as the tyre runs over the tacked part again, it will recover rubber (curing)? That is some amazing simulation! Is there a "limit" to how much rubber can get tacked in a certain place?

Wellard
16-06-2015, 23:00
Got the pit glitch come In new tyres come out the pits flat with sparkes coming out the back of the car , can't continue season until this is patched anyone else had this

Roger Prynne
16-06-2015, 23:46
^^^ just about everybody ;)

Roger Prynne
16-06-2015, 23:58
I have a question:
The tearing, tack and curing you are talking about. Do you mean the rubber getting teared off the tyre, tacked on the asfalt (the darker part of the track) and then as the tyre runs over the tacked part again, it will recover rubber (curing)? That is some amazing simulation! Is there a "limit" to how much rubber can get tacked in a certain place?

Curing is the chemical reaction between the rubber and the asphalt.

Also, Curing is the process of applying pressure to the green tire in a mold in order to give it its final shape, and applying heat energy to stimulate the chemical reaction between the rubber and other materials

KartKingCorre
17-06-2015, 00:09
Curing is the chemical reaction between the rubber and the asphalt.

Aha ok sorry I didnt know these terms in english. Did I understand the other terms correctly?

And do you understand what I ment? Is that being simulated as well?

Roger Prynne
17-06-2015, 00:24
^^^ Yes and Yes... :)

Doug914
17-06-2015, 00:29
Doug, (or Casey)

What factors influence "wear"? Is heat a "direct" variable in the wear equation?

Some people were wondering how heat influences wear.

Yes, but only in how it softens the rubber to allow it to stick, stretch and ulimately tear. Easier than if it were colder. That is the lions share of wear - tearing.

tongs
17-06-2015, 02:58
Driving on Ice.
The handling in this game is not realistic, its like driving on ice, cars slide when corning, ive spent many hours in car set up screen trying to get rid of the iceyness feeling when driving to the point of giving up and not playing anymore its a head fk dealing with it. I didnt buy this game to spend hours on end trying to set up a vehicle, i purchased it because i believed as many did it was going to be the most realistic driving sim available. How wrong was I.
Compared to The Racing Sim for the Children "Forza and Gran T" which are beyond boring poor games...
Project cars is exceptionally better. The Issue with Project cars is the unrealistic Handling, Issues that were seen with Shift/Shift2 and its a major problem for many gamers.
SMS you have work to do, Gamers are losing patience.

PC Gamer
5th gen I7 broadwell processor
Nvidia GTX 980
32GB Ram
Window 7 Pro
Logitech G27 Racing wheel/Peddles.

TenthDan
17-06-2015, 05:50
Driving on Ice.
The handling in this game is not realistic, its like driving on ice, cars slide when corning, ive spent many hours in car set up screen trying to get rid of the iceyness feeling when driving to the point of giving up and not playing anymore its a head fk dealing with it. I didnt buy this game to spend hours on end trying to set up a vehicle, i purchased it because i believed as many did it was going to be the most realistic driving sim available. How wrong was I.
Compared to The Racing Sim for the Children "Forza and Gran T" which are beyond boring poor games...
Project cars is exceptionally better. The Issue with Project cars is the unrealistic Handling, Issues that were seen with Shift/Shift2 and its a major problem for many gamers.
SMS you have work to do, Gamers are losing patience.

PC Gamer
5th gen I7 broadwell processor
Nvidia GTX 980
32GB Ram
Window 7 Pro
Logitech G27 Racing wheel/Peddles.

No need to post in multiple threads. You have work to do on your forum posting style, moderators are losing their patience. See what I did there!

Bealdor
17-06-2015, 06:22
So basically their wet tyres are immune to dry asphalt at the moment, as they can set equal times to the player who is running slicks, but as soon as it actually starts raining and the track is getting wet they get slower lol. :)

As long as the tire wear isn't tweaked you can do the same with wet tires. ;)

David Semperger
17-06-2015, 08:19
As long as the tire wear isn't tweaked you can do the same with wet tires. ;)

Not quite. I compared the wet tires on cars in the latest SMS-R events (I was looking for any edge I could find :)) and while you can post comparable times to slicks they are definitely slower overall, even before they overheat. While our rain tires always have less grip than our slicks, I feel their real downside is that they use a softer a compound, which increases their rolling resistance considerably. This really hurts your acceleration and ultimately your top speed. I could almost reach my slick times with wet tires at Monaco with the FA for example, but doing anything similar at Spa or Monza, where you have long straights, is impossible. I don't know how all of this affects the AI though. Given how they use a simplified physics model I could easily see how they can be just as fast with wet tires as with slicks in the dry. That's definitely not true for the players though.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-06-2015, 14:25
I think magazine tests of the McLaren F1 only generated something like 0.87g on the skidpad, which is pretty sad by today's standards.Something around there yes, but it's not quite as simple as that. For some reason I've noticed a massive tendency for American skid pad results to be consistently lower than what European magazines measure, even when using supposedly the same tyres (there have been some mentions that tyres sold under the same name actually can have different compounds in different regions, but I don't know if that's actually accurate). One reason could be concrete skid pans vs. tarmac ones, etc.

The F1 certainly wasn't bad in the corners compared to the general level of sports cars back then, it was light, had a very sophisticated suspension layout and nice big tyres. I've found results measured on other cars from the same period running on the "same" (obviously not identical, they didn't normally come in the F1's size nor rated for the same speeds) Michelin SX-MXX3 tyres as the F1 came with (well, those and the GoodYear F1), and they got up into the high 0.80s even on much narrower tyres on heavier cars, the M3 E36 for example measured 0.89 G in the corners and 1.03 G during braking (average, not peak, with cold brakes). I'd give the F1 the benefit of the doubt and accept a solid 0.9-1.0 G lateral based on those. =)

Awong124
17-06-2015, 15:08
Something around there yes, but it's not quite as simple as that. For some reason I've noticed a massive tendency for American skid pad results to be consistently lower than what European magazines measure, even when using supposedly the same tyres (there have been some mentions that tyres sold under the same name actually can have different compounds in different regions, but I don't know if that's actually accurate). One reason could be concrete skid pans vs. tarmac ones, etc.

The F1 certainly wasn't bad in the corners compared to the general level of sports cars back then, it was light, had a very sophisticated suspension layout and nice big tyres. I've found results measured on other cars from the same period running on the "same" (obviously not identical, they didn't normally come in the F1's size nor rated for the same speeds) Michelin SX-MXX3 tyres as the F1 came with (well, those and the GoodYear F1), and they got up into the high 0.80s even on much narrower tyres on heavier cars, the M3 E36 for example measured 0.89 G in the corners and 1.03 G during braking (average, not peak, with cold brakes). I'd give the F1 the benefit of the doubt and accept a solid 0.9-1.0 G lateral based on those. =)

It's also possible that different magazines use different diameter skidpads. It technically shouldn't matter on most cars, but with a larger skidpad they go around at higher speeds and downforce could come into play in some cars.

For example, I vaguely remember a period of time when Car and Driver used a 200-ft diameter skidpad while Road & Track used a 300-ft diameter one.

Awong124
17-06-2015, 15:13
I did a race that started raining on lap 2 of 6, and in the field of 19 AI I think about 15 of them pitted. The remaining 4 or so stayed out and had a massive lead to the finish. I retried the race and started on wets, and surprisingly I was able to do times similar to (if not the same) as I when I was on slicks. The tires just overheated a lot faster. That didn't seem correct. But in any case, there were a few AI that didn't pit again, but I won because I didn't pit either.

Though being able to set slick times in the dry with wet tires doesn't seem to happen all the time. Maybe it depends on the car. Because I accidentally went out on wet tires in the dry in superkarts and I was quite a bit slower.

Bealdor
17-06-2015, 16:10
I did a race that started raining on lap 2 of 6, and in the field of 19 AI I think about 15 of them pitted. The remaining 4 or so stayed out and had a massive lead to the finish. I retried the race and started on wets, and surprisingly I was able to do times similar to (if not the same) as I when I was on slicks. The tires just overheated a lot faster. That didn't seem correct. But in any case, there were a few AI that didn't pit again, but I won because I didn't pit either.

Though being able to set slick times in the dry with wet tires doesn't seem to happen all the time. Maybe it depends on the car. Because I accidentally went out on wet tires in the dry in superkarts and I was quite a bit slower.

That's the problem of too low wet tire wear. They should wear much faster soon (one of the next patches) and therefore be slower than the slicks after a shorter time.

mister dog
17-06-2015, 16:40
That's the problem of too low wet tire wear. They should wear much faster soon (one of the next patches) and therefore be slower than the slicks after a shorter time.
I suppose even without wear they should be a couple of seconds a lap slower no?

@Doug, like Awong states there, it's a bit odd some of the bots pit whilst others stay out without pitting. Aren't they all supposed to have the same tyre compound fitted at the start of the race, and all make pit stops when conditions change?

Bealdor
17-06-2015, 16:46
I suppose even without wear they should be a couple of seconds a lap slower no?

@Doug, like Awong states there, it's a bit odd some of the bots pit whilst others stay out without pitting. Aren't they all supposed to have the same tyre compound fitted at the start of the race, and all make pit stops when conditions change?

Not really. They're much softer than slicks and therefore can have great cornering abilities. But they should really wear pretty fast so you can't take advantage of this soft compound.

mister dog
17-06-2015, 16:57
Not really. They're much softer than slicks and therefore can have great cornering abilities. But they should really wear pretty fast so you can't take advantage of this soft compound.
Strange, i thought profiled tyres would never be able to give the same grip levels as a slick.

Awong124
17-06-2015, 17:14
Strange, i thought profiled tyres would never be able to give the same grip levels as a slick.

It could overcome the decrease in contact area if the compound is soft enough. But the purpose of the tread in wet tires isn't just for water evacuation. The tread blocks are also designed to have a lot of movement to generate heat to keep the tire up to operating temperature even when being constantly cooled by water. The downside of that is that it will overheat and wear like crazy if it's dry. I guess it's currently just not overheating fast enough.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-06-2015, 17:31
It's also possible that different magazines use different diameter skidpads. It technically shouldn't matter on most cars, but with a larger skidpad they go around at higher speeds and downforce could come into play in some cars.

For example, I vaguely remember a period of time when Car and Driver used a 200-ft diameter skidpad while Road & Track used a 300-ft diameter one.Yeah, it shouldn't matter a whole lot, and with street cars the aero is mostly pretty much negligible, even stuff like the 911 GT3 is perhaps 50 kg total at 200 km/h, which you won't reach on a skid pad.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
17-06-2015, 17:33
It could overcome the decrease in contact area if the compound is soft enough.Yeah. To some extent you could think of them like those 80s/early 90s qualifying special tyres that could juuuuuust about take one fast lap before they melted completely. Except these ones shouldn't really be able to take it that far and they're grooved as well. =)

Awong124
17-06-2015, 17:54
Yeah. To some extent you could think of them like those 80s/early 90s qualifying special tyres that could juuuuuust about take one fast lap before they melted completely. Except these ones shouldn't really be able to take it that far and they're grooved as well. =)

Yeah, but the thing is, even if wet tires didn't wear out in the dry after 1 lap, they should have overheated well before that to the point where they should be super greasy even if not worn out.