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Kruleworld
26-05-2015, 04:28
I find most artificial timing penalties frustrating, but this is awful. 'current lap' invalid is fair and makes sense, but next lap as well? WTF? :mad:

Joni Varis
26-05-2015, 04:32
Invalid next lap only happens when you gain advantage on some of the last corners of the track. Prevents you from gaining an advatage to next lap, example on some tracks if you cut the last corner,you get much higher speed when starting next lap than you never would driving inside track.

LCJ
26-05-2015, 04:55
Invalid next lap only happens when you gain advantage on some of the last corners of the track.
In my exprience that is not true. I feel it happens if you go off anywhere in the whole last section of the track.

Murt
26-05-2015, 05:03
I find the same. Every time I have been hit with it, it has usually been when I have been off track completely and lost time.

Pink_650S
26-05-2015, 05:07
I feel it happens if you go off anywhere in the whole last section of the track.

^ This is true.

SIlMPLIClITY
26-05-2015, 05:09
In my exprience that is not true. I feel it happens if you go off anywhere in the whole last section of the track.

This is the way it is. On Lemans if you go off on the fast s curves you will invalidate the next lap time aswell. This makes no sense because there is a very slow s bend, and another s bend that is even slower.

Kruleworld
26-05-2015, 07:08
it's annoying, but not as bad as Assetto Corsa's "solution", of making you slow down for a set period.

Joni Varis
26-05-2015, 08:23
I cant see how it is annoying, you know the tracks has the white lines on both sides there for reason :)

RedDave84
26-05-2015, 08:48
The theory is that although you might come off and it makes you lose time in that moment, it could enable you to take a different line off the last corner and come out slightly faster than you should be able to had you stayed on track. If you exit it just 2mph faster, that could equate to 10mph over the line and hence give you a 10mph head start on what should be possible on your next lap.

evanzo7
26-05-2015, 08:51
I cant see how it is annoying, you know the tracks has the white lines on both sides there for reason :)

Aye but just think, your in Quali going for an insane lap, make a mistake, damn but ok I have time for one more lap.
But no, wait, I've been hit with that penalty despite not gaining an advantage, 9 times out of 10 it isn't on a part of the track that can affects your speed for the start of the next lap.

I understand the logic and that is a great idea, it just hasn't been greatly implemented.
For example on Coppice corner at Donington, my Achilles heel on that track, if I go off there I still have the chicane to navigate, thus not affecting my speed to start the next lap yet I get that penalty affecting both this and the next lap!

JDFSSS
26-05-2015, 10:35
I cant see how it is annoying, you know the tracks has the white lines on both sides there for reason :)

Because most of the time the penalty is unnecessary. It could be adjusted for every track to make it less annoying. Getting your next lap invalidated when there are still 2-3 corners left in your current lap is usually not necessary. It's not really an issue for me because I stay on the track, but I know some people struggle just to get a clean lap.

creepyd
26-05-2015, 12:51
I think the problem is it's too harsh.
Just 1 obvious example comes to mind, Nordschleife you can leave the track 3 bends before the end and invalidate the next lap.
You still have a slow left, then a 2ng gear right (which you can't cut anyway as there's a great stonking barrier!).
There should be no instance AT ALL of invalidating the next lap on that track due to the big barrier.

A second example, the Mazda raceway, Laguna.
You can go off on the 2nd to last turn and invalidate the next lap, even though you still have a straight and then a tight hairpin to go around..

Invincible
26-05-2015, 13:15
I see your point. And I would also like to have it changed to the last corner. If you're making rubbish here, both laps, current and next should be invalid. For some tracks, i.e. Le Mans, make it the last two chicanes.

But having a whole sector, is a bit overdone, especially on the long tracks, where the last sector alone can have more turns than some other tracks have in a whole lap.

LR_Se7eN
26-05-2015, 13:21
This is the correct way to time and score a lap. you can't gain an advantage on the last section of a circuit that allows an advantage for the beginning of the next lap.

LR_Se7eN
26-05-2015, 14:11
This is the correct way to time and score a lap. you can't gain an advantage on the last section of a circuit that allows an advantage for the beginning of the next lap.

evanzo7
26-05-2015, 14:21
This is the correct way to time and score a lap. you can't gain an advantage on the last section of a circuit that allows an advantage for the beginning of the next lap.

We got that the first time when you posted almost an hour ago! ;)

AndrePeniche
26-05-2015, 14:58
I think in no one's experience that is true.
First, there's not many tracks where you can actually benefit of cutting a last corner, and also, most of the people are frustrated because this always happens when you make a simple mistake in the last corner.
So, not only you lost that lap (which is also quite unfair, due the fact that you are already being punished by your own mistake, therefore, slowing down your time), but also you are losing the next one.

That's bad guys.
We understand the reason for it to be in the game. We just think it is badly applied.

Toxic
26-05-2015, 15:03
I think in no one's experience that is true.
First, there's not many tracks where you can actually benefit of cutting a last corner, and also, most of the people are frustrated because this always happens when you make a simple mistake in the last corner.
So, not only you lost that lap (which is also quite unfair, due the fact that you are already being punished by your own mistake, therefore, slowing down your time), but also you are losing the next one.

That's bad guys.
We understand the reason for it to be in the game. We just think it is badly applied.

I understand your point there. But you can also gain an advantage running wide on a lot of tracks where run off areas are now concrete instead of gravel.

I am used to it now but it does take time to adjust to the un forgiving track limits in places.

Mahjik
26-05-2015, 15:03
It's possible to gain time by a cut anywhere in the last section of most tracks. It doesn't necessarily have to be the final corner.

The main thing is the same rules apply to all drivers (i.e. it's no inconsistent). While some may view it as undesirable, the goal is to make it 'consistent' which ever solution is implemented. i.e. some people don't like how iRacing does it, but at least it's the same for all drivers.

AndrePeniche
03-06-2015, 22:10
Ok guys, all of us have a point, actually.
Thing is: Isn't there a mid point where you can apply some changes to this?
So basically what you are saying is: yeah, we know you don't like it, but there's nothing we can do because although it is there for a reason and it is affecting races and qualifying in a very unfair and bad way, our system for this is limited and we don't wanna do anything about it.

Because guys, if this is a racing sim, and an awesome one, it should have these situations simulated as well!
So what you are saying is that a racer lets his or her car slide in a corner a little and someone says on the radio: "Yeah, this is wrong, invalid!"
Or worse, someone let's a car slide in the last corner and a race director says: "Yeah, fuck this lap and you know what, forget about the next one as well".

Still I repeat: We know why it is in the game, but believe it, it is being VERY badly applied.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 22:16
It's possible to gain time by a cut anywhere in the last section of most tracks. It doesn't necessarily have to be the final corner.

The main thing is the same rules apply to all drivers (i.e. it's no inconsistent). While some may view it as undesirable, the goal is to make it 'consistent' which ever solution is implemented. i.e. some people don't like how iRacing does it, but at least it's the same for all drivers.

That is not necessarily true. There are a few tracks where cutting it 2-4 corners back it invalidates your lap for no reason. Here are just two examples from two of the biggest name tracks in the game.

If you touch the grass on the last chicane on Nurburgring GP you won't gain any extra time on your next lap, but it invalidates it anyway. If you run wide at Stowe on Silverstone GP it won't effect your next lap, but the game invalidates your next lap anyway. There are some places where this should be adjusted.

lacslyer
03-06-2015, 22:26
I think in no one's experience that is true.
First, there's not many tracks where you can actually benefit of cutting a last corner, and also, most of the people are frustrated because this always happens when you make a simple mistake in the last corner.
So, not only you lost that lap (which is also quite unfair, due the fact that you are already being punished by your own mistake, therefore, slowing down your time), but also you are losing the next one.

That's bad guys.
We understand the reason for it to be in the game. We just think it is badly applied.

You're assuming that a mistake will necessarily make you slower, and that isn't always the case. I often find myself making a mistake on the last corner of Outlon Park by pushing too hard and going off track. Which in every scenario gives me a significant speed advantage. So you can't use the theory that sometimes it's not advantageous so it should be fixed, because sometimes it is advantageous and those advantages could be serious advantages.

How would you prefer it applied? In my opinion it is a bit harsh on some tracks, but I actually prefer it being done possibly too far as opposed to not far enough, which I think is what they were going for. So yes, it could be better, but it's not so detrimental to the game in any scenario because the cause of the problem is your own mistake. I'm not saying that you need to improve your driving, just that if it's such an issue then you're better off learning the limitations of the tracks - which is something you'd benefit from even if they do change it.

Toxic
03-06-2015, 22:54
That is not necessarily true. There are a few tracks where cutting it 2-4 corners back it invalidates your lap for no reason. Here are just two examples from two of the biggest name tracks in the game.

If you touch the grass on the last chicane on Nurburgring GP you won't gain any extra time on your next lap, but it invalidates it anyway. If you run wide at Stowe on Silverstone GP it won't effect your next lap, but the game invalidates your next lap anyway. There are some places where this should be adjusted.
Disagree with nurburgring specifically - the more speed you can build up for coca cola curve the faster you can take it on a wide line - which is critical for straight line speed the following lap, especially with high downforce cars.

Stowe im not sure.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 23:05
Disagree with nurburgring specifically - the more speed you can build up for coca cola curve the faster you can take it on a wide line - which is critical for straight line speed the following lap, especially with high downforce cars.

Stowe im not sure.

What? I'm not exactly picking up what you are putting down. Cutting the last chicane won't make you go around the last corner any faster. The last corner has a max velocity you can take and I don't believe there are any cars in the game that you can carry more speed through the last corner by cutting the chicane. If I reach the last corner at 180 mph, 120 mph, or 80 mph I'll need to slow down to the same speed to make it around it.

How are you not sure about Stowe? The corner is over 3 turns back from the finish straight. Going wide on stowe has no possible way to effect your speed down the straight.

GT_Racing
03-06-2015, 23:06
Disagree with nurburgring specifically - the more speed you can build up for coca cola curve the faster you can take it on a wide line - which is critical for straight line speed the following lap, especially with high downforce cars.

Stowe im not sure.

I dont think Nurburgring applies because there arent any cars that can take turn 15 flat out. So you will always have to decrease your speed going into it. You cant just floor it from the chicane and just turn into turn 15(the last one). If you could take the corner flat out then you can gain advantage from cutting the chicane, but you cant so cutting the chicane has no effect on your next lap.

And for stowe you definitely gain nothing from going wide because you have to slow down a bunch of times before you get to the finish line.

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 00:06
There are some places where this should be adjusted.

I agree to disagree. ;)

GT_Racing
04-06-2015, 00:12
I agree to disagree. ;)

Wait wait wait. How does it makes sense that getting bumped off at the last chicane at Spa invalidates your next lap. It does not give you any advantage. Or getting bumped wide at Stowe on Silverstone? Im all for invalidating the shit out of a current lap for running four wheels off, but those spots shouldnt ruin your next lap.

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 00:25
Wait wait wait. How does it makes sense that getting bumped off at the last chicane at Spa invalidates your next lap. It does not give you any advantage. Or getting bumped wide at Stowe on Silverstone? Im all for invalidating the shit out of a current lap for running four wheels off, but those spots shouldnt ruin your next lap.

If you are getting bumped, that means you are in a race. In most series, there are no bonus points for the fastest lap. In a Time Trial, that just means you pushed too hard as no one is bumping you. However, even in the racing case (for me) as long as the rules are consistent for everyone then I'm ok with it. iRacing is very similar in this case but you may not be familiar with how it does lap invalidation if you only game on the PS4.

Keep in mind we are talking about "lap time" being invalidated, not the lap itself from a race. I'm honestly not so sure why people care so much about that in a racing scenario anyway. I'd rather be on the top of the podium than not but have the fastest lap. ;)

GT_Racing
04-06-2015, 00:33
If you are getting bumped, that means you are in a race. In most series, there are no bonus points for the fastest lap. In a Time Trial, that just means you pushed too hard as no one is bumping you. However, even in the racing case (for me) as long as the rules are consistent for everyone then I'm ok with it. iRacing is very similar in this case but you may not be familiar with how it does lap invalidation if you only game on the PS4.

Keep in mind we are talking about "lap time" being invalidated, not the lap itself from a race. I'm honestly not so sure why people care so much about that in a racing scenario anyway. I'd rather be on the top of the podium than not but have the fastest lap. ;)

We are all talking about qualifying. As you pointed out racing lap times mean nothing. You are acting like you don't have basal animals taking people out on qualifying laps. :D


PS: I dont only game on the PS4.

apexatspeed
04-06-2015, 00:44
If you are getting bumped, that means you are in a race. In most series, there are no bonus points for the fastest lap. In a Time Trial, that just means you pushed too hard as no one is bumping you. However, even in the racing case (for me) as long as the rules are consistent for everyone then I'm ok with it. iRacing is very similar in this case but you may not be familiar with how it does lap invalidation if you only game on the PS4.

Keep in mind we are talking about "lap time" being invalidated, not the lap itself from a race. I'm honestly not so sure why people care so much about that in a racing scenario anyway. I'd rather be on the top of the podium than not but have the fastest lap. ;)

Even during qualifying there are other players and especially AI running you off track. At least players will move for flashing headlights. (This is a totally different discussion though)

Even without a person bumping you off pushing to the limit during qualifying will make mistakes. You lock up and slide off at the last chicane of Spa boom your next lap is invalid. Now you have to go all the way around the track twice to get in a lap time when some qualifying sessions online only last 5-10 minutes.

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 00:47
We are all talking about qualifying. As you pointed out racing lap times mean nothing. You are acting like you don't have basal animals taking people out on qualifying laps. :D

I only have one animal taking me out on qualifying laps. He's a member who got banned from this forum (and the Steam forums) and now targets any recognizable WMD member. Other than that, I've been successfully able to create space for myself to get decent qualifying laps in during public racing. However, the PS4 may not have as many courteous drivers in the masses. The PC has a smaller sample group so we may not run into that scenario as often.

GT_Racing
04-06-2015, 00:50
I only have one animal taking me out on qualifying laps. He's a member who got banned from this forum (and the Steam forums) and now targets any recognizable WMD member. Other than that, I've been successfully able to create space for myself to get decent qualifying laps in during public racing. However, the PS4 may not have as many courteous drivers in the masses. The PC has a smaller sample group so we may not run into that scenario as often.

That is probably correct. The consoles probably have more crazies than clean drivers, and it can get real frustrating when somebody is coming out the pits (the lap doesnt count) blocking you all the way down the track while you are flashing them. Then at the final chicane you give up and try to get them only for them to bump you and behold you lose two laps(current and next).

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 00:51
Even without a person bumping you off pushing to the limit during qualifying will make mistakes. You lock up and slide off at the last chicane of Spa boom your next lap is invalid. Now you have to go all the way around the track twice to get in a lap time when some qualifying sessions online only last 5-10 minutes.

Yep, IMO, that's part of the excitement. Why not instead put in a lap at say your 85%, then go for your 110%? This way, you've gotten a decent time in to be in front of the slower drivers in case you get it wrong somewhere.

For my real life time trial series; if I have an off or a spin, it invalidates my entire session (i.e. no laps are eligible).

apexatspeed
04-06-2015, 01:02
Yep, IMO, that's part of the excitement. Why not instead put in a lap at say your 85%, then go for your 110%? This way, you've gotten a decent time in to be in front of the slower drivers in case you get it wrong somewhere.

For my real life time trial series; if I have an off or a spin, it invalidates my entire session (i.e. no laps are eligible).

I do exactly what you suggest. If I can't get a lap with the crazies I will slow down and get in a brisk jog style lap. But a player shouldn't have to work around something that can be adjusted by the developers.

That is unfortunate that your time trial series is that stringent, but in the most racing leagues they allow drivers to run wide on previous laps unless it gives them an advantage in their next lap. Indycar is different because they time you over two laps. But I guarantee three laps ago running wide on a unrelated corner to the start line won't prevent them from setting a new time.

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 01:07
I do exactly what you suggest. If I can't get a lap with the crazies I will slow down and get in a brisk jog style lap. But a player shouldn't have to work around something that can be adjusted by the developers.

From my experience, that happens in real life as well. What we don't have though are penalties like F1 does but drivers always complain about traffic during qualifying sessions (i.e. driver A got in my way or I would have had pole). I've had the same with my Time Trial sessions where drivers who are clearly slower (and we aren't racing for time trials), don't move out of the way and slow my lap. It happens.

apexatspeed
04-06-2015, 01:17
From my experience, that happens in real life as well. What we don't have though are penalties like F1 does but drivers always complain about traffic during qualifying sessions (i.e. driver A got in my way or I would have had pole). I've had the same with my Time Trial sessions where drivers who are clearly slower (and we aren't racing for time trials), don't move out of the way and slow my lap. It happens.

Those points are all deviations from the discussion about track limits. Regardless of how you go off going off 3-4 corners before the last corner has no effect on finish straight speed on most tracks. There for it shouldn't invalidate my next lap.

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 01:24
Those points are all deviations from the discussion about track limits. Regardless of how you go off going off 3-4 corners before the last corner has no effect on finish straight speed on most tracks. There for it shouldn't invalidate my next lap.

I agree to disagree. ;)

apexatspeed
04-06-2015, 01:39
I agree to disagree. ;)

Which part do you disagree on? The part that 3-4 corners back doesn't alter your finish straight speed? Or the part that discussing collisions deviates from the original topic?

Kruleworld
04-06-2015, 02:42
Perhaps someone can confirm, but turning off "flags and penalties" does not appear to turn off invalid lap penalty. it will still invalidate affected laps in qualifying (5 mins Q at long tracks can mean 1 lap qualifying) putting you at the back of the field.

HBR-Roadhog
04-06-2015, 03:13
Well all I can say is that while it is true that you may get your next lap invalidated due to an off track violation at a point where it could not make you faster on the following lap this is not an uncommon thing. Forza 3 and 4 both do this and so does Gran Turismo. Both do it for wall contact also if I remember correctly. Basically if you are in the last sector of the lap you have to be clean or else you will forfeit the following lap. It can be annoying but that is the way it is in all the racing games I play so I accept it and try not to be dirty on that last sector.

And 5 min qualifying on "long" tracks means no qualifying as you can not run 2 laps on a long track in under 5 minutes i.e Lemans, Nurburgring or any other where your hot lap would be near 2:30 or more.

Sascha Brandenburg
04-06-2015, 05:45
So why we cant take the easy way ? Server host can choose the cut rules : One with current lap & next lap are invalid and one option with current lap invalid. So if u have a league with a 0 tolerance policy u can choose current&next lap invalid if u have a league who where more polite u can choose only current lap. Like flag rules which can be choosen in different simulations.

I think this would be the easiest way because u can discuss about where pcars give u a cut but u need to implement it in the game . For development its the easiest way to give a cut for the last sector because this are is defined. Would u implement a cut for the last corner of every track u have to define the area. So u have to make a mask where the cut detection works at this moment. Thias for each track an each variance of the track. I think this would be take more then some hours to create a scroll down bar where u can choose between currentlap&next lap or only current lap.

just my 2 cent ;)

Mahjik
04-06-2015, 18:02
Which part do you disagree on? The part that 3-4 corners back doesn't alter your finish straight speed? Or the part that discussing collisions deviates from the original topic?

The part about there needs to be a change in the current invalidation mechanism.

Either way, it doesn't matter as I'm not employed by SMS nor do I write any code for pCARS. It's just my opinion and we are both entitled to have one of our own (which is why I said I agree to disagree).

Doctor Doom
04-06-2015, 18:06
They simply need to have real sim mode with all the rules in place, recreational, and arcade modes in the tabs created by the host of each multiplayer session. They should have a losers lounge mode for those who do not take racing games seriously. It's too hard, it's too difficult. Perhaps practice does make perfect.

Niveous21
04-06-2015, 18:16
I cant see how it is annoying, you know the tracks has the white lines on both sides there for reason :)

Sometimes you make a mistake...

I think it should only apply to the FINAL corner. You are not gaining any advantage on the next lap by cutting the 2nd or 3rd-to-last corner.

ARNAGEist
04-06-2015, 19:19
Well all I can say is that while it is true that you may get your next lap invalidated due to an off track violation at a point where it could not make you faster on the following lap this is not an uncommon thing. Forza 3 and 4 both do this and so does Gran Turismo. Both do it for wall contact also if I remember correctly. Basically if you are in the last sector of the lap you have to be clean or else you will forfeit the following lap. It can be annoying but that is the way it is in all the racing games I play so I accept it and try not to be dirty on that last sector.

And 5 min qualifying on "long" tracks means no qualifying as you can not run 2 laps on a long track in under 5 minutes i.e Lemans, Nurburgring or any other where your hot lap would be near 2:30 or more.

If Project Cars is even close to being a racing simulator on PC (which I think it is) and not a game like Gran Turismo then I would expect real world rules to apply which doesn't invalidate a lap because they run wide in the last sector.
The stewards couldn't keep up :confused:
I think unless you have cut the final corner the next lap should stand :yes:

apexatspeed
07-06-2015, 23:56
Another track I just noticed with a big one. I noticed on Circuit de la Sarthe touching the grass in the porsche curves with one wheel invalidates your next lap. That section of the track does not implicate your finish straight speeds at all.

Yes I just noticed it. This was only the second time I had driven on that track in this game haha:hopelessness:. I'm not a huge fan of the track, but I love the race though.