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View Full Version : [Known issue] Tyre wear (indesctructible) or IA strategy ? Something wrong



Seubi42
26-05-2015, 11:26
Hi everyone,

I really love project cars. :D

I start training with endurance stuff and something is very strange about tyre wear or AI stragegy. Let me tell you :

I made a Le Mans race of 2 hours with "tyres wear x3 (in options, game settings)", with Hard tyres on Audi R8 LMS Ultra (I play on PS4).
Each of my IA opponents (GT3 and others R8 LMS) came to pits each 20 minutes to change tyres (I suppose).
So I start doing same thing first, but later, I try a double relay with same tyres. Every thing were fine : after 30 minutes with same tyres, it can fell they were not very grippy, sure, but still ok to race carefully (maybe I lost 5 seconds per lap max than were tyres are fresh). And after this point, it was like tyre wear were frozen, it can gone worst.
So i decide to test finishing the race without anypitstop (5 relays with same tyres) and... I win with more than 1 minutes behind the first opponent... without any problem.

I don't know it the bug is tyre wear or if IA strategy is wrong change them too often but it is not very realistic :(
In my experience it was like tyres start with "perfect" level, and ends with a "not sharp but ok" state forever and ever :confused:

Seubi42
26-05-2015, 14:47
Does someone knows issues about tyre wear or AI strategy when doing long races ? :)

Kulch
27-05-2015, 04:45
AI Tyre wear does NOT exist in this current build. Its going to be patched in later

k.merse
27-05-2015, 05:23
AI is not affected by anything currently, including rain, tire wear, tire temperature, track temperature, overheating etc. So you shouldn't look for logic in their strategy.

Kruleworld
27-05-2015, 05:41
AI is not affected by anything currently, including rain, tire wear, tire temperature, track temperature, overheating etc. So you shouldn't look for logic in their strategy.

so... pointless then?

Kulch
27-05-2015, 06:01
so... pointless then?

career mode just about is

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 06:05
career mode just about is

I don't get this standpoint at all. I hear a lot about it. But I've never had more fun in a racing game career.

I spent hours working on my Palmer Jaguar. Learning the car. Getting better at tracks I didn't know. Running everything to completion. Fighting for my championships (at least in europe where the Radicals were so much stronger).

Then I got a Caterham SP 300.r ride and was blown away by how much faster and different the car was after specializing the Palmer for so long. It was like being handed a rocket ship.

After a tough, tough battle with SR8's which also were so strong in Europe, I was given an LMP1 drive and the sense of accomplishment is amazing, also the sense of speed and how on rails the car is compared to the other two. Once the AI strategies gets fixed and it gets a little faster on the American tracks, it'll be the perfect career mode for me.

JDFSSS
27-05-2015, 06:06
It is a known issue that tire wear is not working correctly for AI and for the player. I think SMS are in the process of fixing this.

Kulch
27-05-2015, 06:28
I don't get this standpoint at all. I hear a lot about it. But I've never had more fun in a racing game career.

I spent hours working on my Palmer Jaguar. Learning the car. Getting better at tracks I didn't know. Running everything to completion. Fighting for my championships (at least in europe where the Radicals were so much stronger).

Then I got a Caterham SP 300.r ride and was blown away by how much faster and different the car was after specializing the Palmer for so long. It was like being handed a rocket ship.

After a tough, tough battle with SR8's which also were so strong in Europe, I was given an LMP1 drive and the sense of accomplishment is amazing, also the sense of speed and how on rails the car is compared to the other two. Once the AI strategies gets fixed and it gets a little faster on the American tracks, it'll be the perfect career mode for me.

That's great. Now hear MY story.

I bought this game purely for pit strategy races. No other game on the current gen offers this. I was told this game will offer tyre wear, fuel consumption, damage and dynamic weather and it does, but it doesn't effect the AI which IS the career modes bread and butter. Nobody can play a career multiplayer. The AI must work for the career mode to work.
Im not a fan of 2-3 laps races - that's what Forza is. Unfortunately due to the AI not having tyre wear, or effected by rain, or wet tryes or anything else, the pitts are literally the pitts and just for me. They don't work, its all broken. There is even some races in career mode with mandatory pitt stops, its just a shame that as the AI is not effected by anything, so I have to shorten the events to 2-3 lap races, because whats the point in doing 10+ laps only to have the heavens open up and rain and then the AI overtake and lap me.

I appreciate the great driving dynamics that each car and class entails, but its all gone to the dogs if the AI is not on the same playing field. Im not doing career to test the cars out and drule over the detail. I'll do that in time trial or solo. Im doing career to race long enough events that involve pitt and crew and enemy and weather. The fundamental of a race day.
I hope now you 'get' my standpoint.

Bealdor
27-05-2015, 06:36
Known issue, yes. More info here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27185-GOOD-INFO-INSIDE!-tyre-wear&p=936029&viewfull=1#post936029

Thread title updated.

RedDave84
27-05-2015, 07:07
I'm a glass half full kind of guy. The AI not being affected by the weather has made me quite good in the rain. :)

The tyre wear is OK though, I was sliding all over the place for a couple of laps at le mans before boxing.

Good drivers can also drive very fast on very bad tyres as well. I remember MS doing it in F1 many years ago. I don't remember the race but I remember the state of the tyres, lunched with chunks out of them and he drove well. Does anyone else remember that?

Seubi42
27-05-2015, 11:05
Ok :) Thanks a lot for all your answers. I hope new patches will come soon :)

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 12:55
That's great. Now hear MY story.

I bought this game purely for pit strategy races. No other game on the current gen offers this. I was told this game will offer tyre wear, fuel consumption, damage and dynamic weather and it does, but it doesn't effect the AI which IS the career modes bread and butter. Nobody can play a career multiplayer. The AI must work for the career mode to work.
Im not a fan of 2-3 laps races - that's what Forza is. Unfortunately due to the AI not having tyre wear, or effected by rain, or wet tryes or anything else, the pitts are literally the pitts and just for me. They don't work, its all broken. There is even some races in career mode with mandatory pitt stops, its just a shame that as the AI is not effected by anything, so I have to shorten the events to 2-3 lap races, because whats the point in doing 10+ laps only to have the heavens open up and rain and then the AI overtake and lap me.

I appreciate the great driving dynamics that each car and class entails, but its all gone to the dogs if the AI is not on the same playing field. Im not doing career to test the cars out and drule over the detail. I'll do that in time trial or solo. Im doing career to race long enough events that involve pitt and crew and enemy and weather. The fundamental of a race day.
I hope now you 'get' my standpoint.

Cool story bro, but I don't really care.

I never had a problem in mandatory pit races, nor in my practices in LMP1. Maybe the race will piss me off something awful and I'll feel a need to complain about it. But I haven't even had a problem with the AI in the rain. If anything, at most places it puts them on my level anyway and at others, if I know it's going to rain I always have the option of turning them down.

But as I've said, I've been running races fully complete, all sliders max, not three lap ones. The only times I need to turn the races laps down are when my GPU decides to fart and crash the game from being too hot. Which I'll probably fix Friday.

Buying a game just for one feature is a silly thing to do, so I still don't understand the standpoint. (Or in general people's pre-disposition to ONE THING DOESNT WORK IN A MANY THINGS ENVIRONMENT, MUST BE SHITE)

Sure I want the AI fixed, but their existence is fulfilled in being other cars on the track that are (mostly) challenging with a few exceptions. I don't play a racing game career so I can marvel at the amazing non-people, I'm sorry.

The AI is sure a hell of a lot more functional than Pro Race Driver, TOCA2 and TOCA3 anyway, which were the only other racing game careers I enjoyed.

k.merse
27-05-2015, 14:30
Ok mate, then hear ME out.

You either give yourself a fair challenge and tune up the AI so it would give you a hard time on the dry, but then you'll be annihilated on wet or partially wet races which very well could ruin your whole season. Being lapped in a wet race is not something teams in higher classes are looking for.
Or you can tune the AI strength down to be in match with them in the rain, but then you will be lapping 2-3 seconds faster on the dry. Where is the challenge in that? Is that supposed to be fun? Unless your lone goal is to collect all the accolades in the fastest way possible, I can't really see the point in it.
And those games ou were referring to had far less realism in general. Nuances can decide a race in PCars, but in TOCA even the weather was static if I remember correctly.

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 14:39
Well let me be blunt.

There's usually 8 or more races in a championship. Of those you have maybe an average of one wet session, let alone a wet race. In an entire season. You might get really unlucky and have more, but on average, you get one wet session. Maybe two if you race in places where there's a lot of rain, like solely the UK.

So of that, you only encounter this problem *once* out of a possible 8 times.

Expecting a videogame to be totally perfect with no flaws at all ever is just as silly as expecting people to be totally perfect. I agree that the AI should (and it seems IS) going to be fixed. No doubt. But it has not OMG RUINED the career game by any stretch of any imagination.

Just for the record though, in TOCA in some mandatory pit races, the AI wouldn't pit at all. And even though the weather system wasn't advanced enough for dynamics, you'd still find yourself losing races. They mostly fixed the problem in patches for 3, I think. Which is to say, other games had problems with AI too that were fixed. But they didn't destroy the ENTIRE experience.

k.merse
27-05-2015, 20:55
Interestingly they managed to release games without major flaws or unfinished features before. My favorite example is F1 Challenge. As far as I know, it was never patched after release, and still, AI was affected by mechanical failures, weather conditions, tire wear, car damage, engine and brake wear just like the human player was. Or there was rFactor, another example. And these are only the racing game, I'm not even talking about other genres.
And I don't think it is an exaggeration to expect from a video game that at least such obvious issues as the AI is unaffected by anything, should be fixed before the game is released. Obviously, bugs are expected. The bigger the game, the more bugs the people will find. But this is not a bug, this is a feature that wasn't finished before the game was released. It's like in a shooter game only pistols would hurt the AI but any other weapon could hurt you.
And this is something I don't think should happen. Not with Project CARS, not with any other game. No game should be released unfinished.

Note: I still like Project CARS, and what works in it, works perfectly. Graphics are great, physics are great too, AI behavior in racing situation is excellent. But there are major issues that ruin the experience, and those issues cannot be dismissed.

Shinzah
27-05-2015, 22:41
Interestingly they managed to release games without major flaws or unfinished features before. My favorite example is F1 Challenge. As far as I know, it was never patched after release, and still, AI was affected by mechanical failures, weather conditions, tire wear, car damage, engine and brake wear just like the human player was.

Too bad the AI was still junk.



Or there was rFactor, another example. And these are only the racing game, I'm not even talking about other genres.

ISI AI is a *very* poor example to use. It might be affected by things, but it is so very, very, bad in many other areas.



And I don't think it is an exaggeration to expect from a video game that at least such obvious issues as the AI is unaffected by anything, should be fixed before the game is released. Obviously, bugs are expected. The bigger the game, the more bugs the people will find. But this is not a bug, this is a feature that wasn't finished before the game was released. It's like in a shooter game only pistols would hurt the AI but any other weapon could hurt you.
And this is something I don't think should happen. Not with Project CARS, not with any other game. No game should be released unfinished.


There are bugs that not even the people who made the game know about. This *is* a bug. In that this was never meant to happen in these instances. AI is a hard thing to make, and maybe ISI made them all affected by things but that didn't make ISI's AI any better. It's still bloody terrible in other aspects.

I think saying that ISI AI has "no major flaws or unfinished features" is more than a little optimistic of an argument.

You might get somewhere with the improvements GSC have made to the ISI AI though. But it's still got many "racing game AI" problems.

Kulch
28-05-2015, 04:44
Cool story bro, but I don't really care.

I never had a problem in mandatory pit races, nor in my practices in LMP1. Maybe the race will piss me off something awful and I'll feel a need to complain about it. But I haven't even had a problem with the AI in the rain. If anything, at most places it puts them on my level anyway and at others, if I know it's going to rain I always have the option of turning them down.

But as I've said, I've been running races fully complete, all sliders max, not three lap ones. The only times I need to turn the races laps down are when my GPU decides to fart and crash the game from being too hot. Which I'll probably fix Friday.

Buying a game just for one feature is a silly thing to do, so I still don't understand the standpoint. (Or in general people's pre-disposition to ONE THING DOESNT WORK IN A MANY THINGS ENVIRONMENT, MUST BE SHITE)

Sure I want the AI fixed, but their existence is fulfilled in being other cars on the track that are (mostly) challenging with a few exceptions. I don't play a racing game career so I can marvel at the amazing non-people, I'm sorry.

The AI is sure a hell of a lot more functional than Pro Race Driver, TOCA2 and TOCA3 anyway, which were the only other racing game careers I enjoyed.

If you haven't noticed the multiplayer on xbox is very shakey, so the career mode and multiplayer mode are under repair and acknowledged by the devs. my profile says something like 11 hrs online for 15 races completed, and im not doing 100lap races, thus @ 1.3 races per hour, its very clear the matchmaking lobby system on xbox needs optimizing. the plethora of 'issue' threads in the multiplayer section also backs this up.

However your input has been duly noted, so i'll go do some solo and play with myself.:)

Shinzah
28-05-2015, 05:23
I can't really comment on the Xbox version since I don't have that console or a copy of the game for it, but I've heard about the problems and hope they get fixed for you guys.

k.merse
28-05-2015, 16:57
There are bugs that not even the people who made the game know about. This *is* a bug. In that this was never meant to happen in these instances. AI is a hard thing to make, and maybe ISI made them all affected by things but that didn't make ISI's AI any better. It's still bloody terrible in other aspects.

Sorry dude, I don't buy it. It is such an obvious flaw that if the devs didn't find it, that would mean there was next to no betatesting put into the game, which I think is unimaginable considering that other features are much more nicely ironed out.
The game is still great, what works in it is awesome, but it was released - as basically any other titles nowadays - unfinished. I really hope they will patch it to complete soon. You doesn't have to defend it so blindly...

JDFSSS
28-05-2015, 17:18
Sorry dude, I don't buy it. It is such an obvious flaw that if the devs didn't find it, that would mean there was next to no betatesting put into the game, which I think is unimaginable considering that other features are much more nicely ironed out.
The game is still great, what works in it is awesome, but it was released - as basically any other titles nowadays - unfinished. I really hope they will patch it to complete soon. You doesn't have to defend it so blindly...

I think you are right. It looks like what happened was they just went with what they had and released the game. The game had been in development for a while and had been delayed once or twice I think. At some point they have to just release the game, even if it's not perfect or finished. I can't say I blame them. The good thing is they will be supporting the game for 2 years and a lot of the problems with the game are things that can be patched.