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caslad81
28-05-2015, 16:09
Hi Doug,

As you have be very forthright with answers, I was just wondering if you could answer this one for me as I haven't been able to get an answer anywhere else. Could you confirm if the AI (Formula Cars) will be tweaked as they are far too slow at the moment especially in qualifying and practice at 100%. The race pace is nearly right, it could do with been just a little faster. If your in front you can pull away, but it is hard to get past them if you play by the rules when your not on pole which is great. All the other classes I've raced are just about right and I find them really challenging (most anyway). This is in solo races btw, and I am getting pole by between 1 and 7 seconds at all the tracks I have raced at. If you need any more info please ask, I'm sure others must have had this problem as I am not the fastest driver in the world!

Thanks

Mark

Doug914
28-05-2015, 20:58
No, there's' no plans. Too many other items that are more important atm.

caslad81
28-05-2015, 21:00
Than qualifying on pole by 7 seconds!? Seems pretty important to me.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 21:34
Whats the exact scenario and setup? Car track etc? Career or not?

FA RACING 01
28-05-2015, 21:47
Same with me - beat them in Solo race weekend by 12 seconds in qualify on 100% A1 and the race, but I enjoy that - makes up for some of the other classes where A1 kick my butt.

caslad81
28-05-2015, 21:54
Formula B
Solo race
Clear and dry
Auto tyre select
No assists
AI 100%
Cockpit view
Full tank of fuel to handicap myself
Sakkito pole by 3 second
Donington pole by 3 seconds
Monaco pole by 7 seconds
Laguna Seca pole by 4 seconds
Oulton park pole by 2 seconds
Formula A and C are also effected, these are the only tracks I have tried. I suspect the others are effected though. The AI just done seem to carry as much speed through the corners or get on the power quick enough. There also slow on the straights. I do not use kers or drs as I know the AI dont yet. I havnt played career mode yet because of the weather problems ect. Race pace is also slow but not quite as bad as quali and practice, probably between 1 and 3 seconds a lap slower. After a 30 lap race I dont have any noticable tyre wear either, and thats with tyres over heating most of the race. Is it tha AI thats slow, or does the player have too much grip?

Thanks

IgorTheHunchback
28-05-2015, 22:33
Imho the AI need to be increased above the %100 mark, TOCA had %120 AI if I remember correctly. Also being able to adjust the AI in %1 increments would allow us to better match the AI to our ability.

Roger Prynne
28-05-2015, 22:49
Imho the AI need to be increased above the %100 mark, TOCA had %120 AI if I remember correctly. Also being able to adjust the AI in %1 increments would allow us to better match the AI to our ability.

This is coming soon for consoles in a patch but don't ask me when becuase I don't know.
I think Ian said it would be in 2% increments.

Doug914
28-05-2015, 22:57
Azure circuit is a general AI problem, not just formula cars. The wear is known and being worked on. But the rest probably won't change.

caslad81
29-05-2015, 07:40
So whats the point in having these cars if you cant race them against decent AI, even codemasters can acheived faster AI. Wish I hadnt bothered with this game now.

caslad81
29-05-2015, 21:48
It wouldnt be so bad if the AI was consistent. They can be anywhere between 2 and 4 seconds faster or slower on any given track on different days, and thats all classes not just Formula cars. Plus why on earth would a car be 3 seconds slower in quali than practice!? I suppose thats another one that wont change though.

Mahjik
29-05-2015, 22:16
It wouldnt be so bad if the AI was consistent. They can be anywhere between 2 and 4 seconds faster or slower on any given track on different days, and thats all classes not just Formula cars. Plus why on earth would a car be 3 seconds slower in quali than practice!? I suppose thats another one that wont change though.

Currently, there aren't low downforce setups for the AI so they will be slower on tracks with longer straights (like Monza). I don't think the AI uses DRS & KERS properly; with that I've had good AI races when not using those features (and only use them in online racing).

caslad81
29-05-2015, 22:32
I dont use them either! Ive just had a race at sakitto with the LMP1s in practice they did a 128.9 in quali they did a 129.6! Far too slow in both sessions. I restarted and fast forwarded it. In practice thay did a 126.6 and in quali they did a 126.2, that was more like it. So basically the whole times are screwed, they just seem to be made up! Quali is never slower than practice in the same conditions.

Mahjik
29-05-2015, 22:37
I dont use them either! Ive just had a race at sakitto with the LMP1s in practice they did a 128.9 in quali they did a 129.6! Far too slow in both sessions. I restarted and fast forwarded it. In practice thay did a 126.6 and in quali they did a 126.2, that was more like it. So basically the whole times are screwed, they just seem to be made up!

They aren't made up, but Sakitto is not going to be a good test bed at this point in time. There are several corners on that track the AI line needs to be adjusted. Silverstone would be a good track for this type of testing.

caslad81
30-05-2015, 08:08
So if the AI are not going to be made faster, are they at least going to fix the corners where the AI are slow at all tracks?

Roger Prynne
30-05-2015, 11:46
Yep.

caslad81
31-05-2015, 14:59
They aren't made up, but Sakitto is not going to be a good test bed at this point in time. There are several corners on that track the AI line needs to be adjusted. Silverstone would be a good track for this type of testing.
Just tried silverstone, AI qualified 1.5 seconds slower than in practice! So its not a good test bed. Ive even started using hard tyres now with the LMPs and still can get pole at some tracks. I just hope fixing the AIs lines works. Some tracks are unbeatable at 100% and some are just stupidly easy, it really spoils the fun. Road American is great fun, the best I can qualify is 8th. All tracks should be like that a 100%.

Mahjik
31-05-2015, 16:23
Just tried silverstone, AI qualified 1.5 seconds slower than in practice!

The AI doesn't use "low fuel setups" for qualifying. If you have a small qualifying window, that means they will likely only have a few runs at full fuel load. The longer the session, they quicker they will get as their fuel load gets lower.


I just hope fixing the AIs lines works. Some tracks are unbeatable at 100% and some are just stupidly easy, it really spoils the fun. Road American is great fun, the best I can qualify is 8th. All tracks should be like that a 100%.

It will make them better on most tracks, but even today, there will be track configurations where the AI will just not be great. And doing crazy things like loading up Azure Circuit with 50 AI will always just cause a train wreck. As computing grows, AI will get better over the years (and it's already better than it was years ago). I still remember the AI in Sports Car GT that couldn't handle any track with a banked turn.

caslad81
31-05-2015, 16:41
OK, cheers. Will the AI using full fuel loads be sorted? In the mean time the longer I run a quali session the faster they will be right? I assume they dont use full fuel in practice, as I have set them to the same length 30mins so they should still be faster in quali, especially with track evolution.

Doug914
31-05-2015, 17:44
How's this for 100% Qualifying At Azure Circuit F/A? Be carefull what you wish for.

Roger Prynne
31-05-2015, 17:52
Nice one Doug, that's looking better.

Doug914
31-05-2015, 17:56
I found a forward looking wall paramter in Chris's great code that was set too far to look ahead. So the AI was seeing impending wall danger all over Azure and hesitating everywhere. No matter how I changed the line the same problems existed. Other tracks like Bathurst to lesser degree.. Basicly any track that has a hazard close to the race line will probably benefit form this change. Setting this to a lower number instantly made them 5 seconds faster here and picked up about 1,5 seconds at Bathurst. Redoing the line got me another 2 seconds at Azure. So 7 seconds faster. :)

EDIT: Also fixed the pile ups around Lowes hairpin. Nice an clean all Cars. Checked with F/A and LMP1's.

Doug914
31-05-2015, 17:57
FYI Bathurst Ford Sierra @ 100% race leader in a 10 lapper 2:17.8 - 2:18-4

Also have speed increase for:
Donnington + 3 seconds GT3 car (new line)
Watkins Glen +2 seconds GT3 car (new line)

Roger Prynne
31-05-2015, 18:01
Looks like your on a roll Doug.

spinkick
31-05-2015, 18:03
How's this for 100% Qualifying At Azure Circuit F/A? Be carefull what you wish for.

SLOW :p

Doug914
31-05-2015, 18:06
Looks like your on a roll Doug.

For 3 weeks, yeah ;)

caslad81
31-05-2015, 18:08
Keep them coming mate!

spinkick
31-05-2015, 18:09
See Doug program.

Go Doug, Go.

Doug914
31-05-2015, 18:40
I don't program. I tweak what the great programmers give me. I'm the last mile. ;)

Roger Prynne
31-05-2015, 18:47
I don't program. I tweak what the great programmers give me. I'm the last mile. ;)

With a fast smile... :onthego:

MiZtErNiCe
31-05-2015, 18:49
ai set at 100% is 40 seconds a lap slower than me around nordshleife. im doing 5mins 25 secs ai are doing 6mins 05 secs

Doug914
31-05-2015, 19:05
In a F/A What about a GT3 car?

caslad81
31-05-2015, 19:05
Could the hazard problem be what causes the AI to be inconsistent? One day pole can be a 1:51 another it could be 1:48 same conditions ect. A difference of 20 places.

TrevorAustin
31-05-2015, 19:13
Just wish they'd look at me next to them and stop ramming rather than worry too far ahead, lol. Or if another car spins in front not drive straight into it! Will this help on that as well? Looks a massive improvement. I'm quite happy with current speeds, lol, just make them less lunatic!

MiZtErNiCe
31-05-2015, 22:49
In a F/A What about a GT3 car? sorry i thought this thread was about formula a, never done it with gt3.

caslad81
01-06-2015, 05:44
The GT cars are more competitive than the Formula and prototype cars IMO, in a previous post I said I struggled at Road America. I've just raced there again and the AI was 3 seconds a lap slower then a previous race which is very strange.

FLX81
01-06-2015, 08:20
FYI Bathurst Ford Sierra @ 100% race leader in a 10 lapper 2:17.8 - 2:18-4

Also have speed increase for:
Donnington + 3 seconds GT3 car (new line)
Watkins Glen +2 seconds GT3 car (new line)

Does this also help with the last corner chicane at Monza short? Seeing frequent pileups here in all types of cars.

Roger Prynne
01-06-2015, 15:30
Does this also help with the last corner chicane at Monza short? Seeing frequent pileups here in all types of cars.

No but this might...


I found a forward looking wall paramter in Chris's great code that was set too far to look ahead. So the AI was seeing impending wall danger all over Azure and hesitating everywhere. No matter how I changed the line the same problems existed. Other tracks like Bathurst to lesser degree.. Basicly any track that has a hazard close to the race line will probably benefit form this change. Setting this to a lower number instantly made them 5 seconds faster here and picked up about 1,5 seconds at Bathurst. Redoing the line got me another 2 seconds at Azure. So 7 seconds faster. :)

EDIT: Also fixed the pile ups around Lowes hairpin. Nice an clean all Cars. Checked with F/A and LMP1's.

Doug914
01-06-2015, 18:56
It's possible yes. I haven't checked every track in the game with this change.

caslad81
01-06-2015, 20:07
Btw, Merc AMG DTM at Spa are insanely fast. Thats challenging! 6 seconds off pole which must be wrong as Im catching the cars on the straights.

caslad81
01-06-2015, 20:44
Its the braking points on the DTMs, I went onboard and watched them and they are braking up to 50 or 60 meters after the player can at full AI. Doug could you add this one to your list?

Doug914
01-06-2015, 22:08
Odd. There's no specific AI for car at a track. Either the track is fast (we know it isn't) or the car is fast everywhere . Granted there are some slight variations, but at 6 seconds fast , the car should be fast everywhere. Or you are slow in that car ( a safe bet you aren't ) . Are you finding this car fast anywhere else?

caslad81
02-06-2015, 04:35
Ill check when I get home from work at some other tracks. Ill check the different tyres too to see if that makes a difference.

doyley101
02-06-2015, 09:38
Its the braking points on the DTMs, I went onboard and watched them and they are braking up to 50 or 60 meters after the player can at full AI. Doug could you add this one to your list?

Did you fastfoward through the session at all? That can screw up the times sometimes

caslad81
02-06-2015, 09:51
Did you fastfoward through the session at all? That can screw up the times sometimes

No I didn't, it was a live session. Like I said I viewed them on-board and they were braking from 160mph about 30 meters before 90 degree corners. Ill check some other track later on this afternoon.

Doug914
02-06-2015, 10:13
I ran them here. I forgot what a great car this was, been a while since i drove it. At my normal 85 % the leaders were a bit fast. I did 2:18.2 and theaders 2:16.8 so in the ball park. Checked Dubai international with similar results.

caslad81
02-06-2015, 18:44
So I rang a few quali sessions at Spa and Laguna Seca. Its the breaking points and speed through some corners for sure. At Spa pole was between 2:09 and 2:11, the best I could do was 2:14 with DRS. I was also 5 seconds off the pace at Laguna. Plus 3 seconds between the same car and track is a big inconsitency. And yes its awesome car to drive!

caslad81
12-06-2015, 17:35
First impressions of 1.4 is pretty good, Ive only raced Donnington and its a big improvement on speed, still needs some work though and wet weather is still un balanced. But keep it up!

Oddbob
15-06-2015, 09:52
Hey caslad81, this isn't a dig at you, but have you ever considered that you are too good for the game? I play at 80% with traction control and ABS on, and the AI is competitive enough for me. If you're doing that well, with no assists and 100%, then maybe you are just too good. I know of others who struggle with 50-60% and assists on, so I think that AI strength is never something that can just go by a small amount of people who are excellent at the game.

caslad81
20-06-2015, 14:59
Trust me mate I aint too good! The new patch has made things so much better at the tracks they have sorted the AIs lines out at. Hope they all get done! It just seems tha faster the cars are the easier they are to beat. Like I said though things at Donnington at least are loooooads better.

Ian Bell
20-06-2015, 15:07
Trust me mate I aint too good! The new patch has made things so much better at the tracks they have sorted the AIs lines out at. Hope they all get done! It just seems tha faster the cars are the easier they are to beat. Like I said though things at Donnington at least are loooooads better.

They will all get worked over (where needed) for sure.

Doug914
21-06-2015, 01:11
I've just redone Lemans( which i posted elsewhere). Also looking at Brno in between working out the AI pitting and bugging the s**t out of the coders for tweaks. They've now nick named me Diva Doug, thank you. ;)

KartKingCorre
21-06-2015, 11:15
(...) They've now nick named me Diva Doug, thank you. ;)

Hahaha :p are they offering you a snickers as well?

caslad81
21-06-2015, 15:19
They will all get worked over (where needed) for sure.

Thanks Ian, tbh I dont think there are many tracks that dont need looking at though. Plus the Formula cars even at the few tracks that have been done are still far too slow compared to how the other series have been emproved. The DTMs still need their braking points sorting.

Enigmatica
21-06-2015, 15:35
Hey caslad81, this isn't a dig at you, but have you ever considered that you are too good for the game? I play at 80% with traction control and ABS on, and the AI is competitive enough for me. If you're doing that well, with no assists and 100%, then maybe you are just too good. I know of others who struggle with 50-60% and assists on, so I think that AI strength is never something that can just go by a small amount of people who are excellent at the game.

The AI are meant to be a challenge for a player of any skill. Ideally, the toughest AI should be doing nearly perfect laps to give even the best player a challenge and the easiest AI should be a challenge for those who just picked up their first racing game ever. I'm not sure it should matter that caslad81 is very good at the game, because there should be AI that challenge him to get better :D

caslad81
21-06-2015, 16:42
The AI are meant to be a challenge for a player of any skill. Ideally, the toughest AI should be doing nearly perfect laps to give even the best player a challenge and the easiest AI should be a challenge for those who just picked up their first racing game ever. I'm not sure it should matter that caslad81 is very good at the game, because there should be AI that challenge him to get better :D

Im a decent driver, really not that good. I cannot compete at the highest level in f1 2014! The fact is the AI have poor lines at nearly all tracks and brake in corners they shouldnt. Even after the patch, the AI are useless with the Formula cars, the AIs line through the melbourne hair pin are terrible.
Im confused about the fuel too, I have been using a full tank thinking the AI are doing the same only to read that it is only in career mode not solo mode. So they are even slower than I thought! Why do they get faster the longer they are out then? 20 mins quali compared to an hour is different for the AI but I still set the same times.
LMPs are better GTs are really quick and DTMs brake at impossible places whilst the formula cars are like snails, why no consistency? Can we also fix the fast forward time option too, there is no consistency there either. BTW when the racing is good its f*@$ing awesome! The difference between practice quali and race is mind bogling!

caslad81
22-06-2015, 19:15
Monaco is still too slow, big improvement but pole by over a second with the FB cars. Plus it took over 20 restarts just to get past the first corner then a 20 second win.

Mahjik
22-06-2015, 19:19
Monaco is still too slow, big improvement but pole by over a second with the FB cars.

With or without the Push-To-Pass usage?

caslad81
22-06-2015, 19:40
If you cannot speed the ai up, could we not have weight penalties to compensate?

caslad81
22-06-2015, 19:41
With or without the Push-To-Pass usage?

Without push to pass and a full tank.

Awong124
22-06-2015, 19:54
I have noticed that the times when the AI is too fast, they are able to brake a lot later than is possible for the player. Even in cars with ABS, where the player suffers from no skill disadvantage, the AI can brake significantly later. This probably has something to do with the simplified physics they use. But it makes it pretty much impossible to overtake them under braking, and it makes it very vulnerable for the player to be overtaken.

caslad81
22-06-2015, 20:08
I agree but this at least makes the racing fun if your not at the front. The only problem is the DTMs they brake impossibly late, even compared to the FAs.

Bealdor
22-06-2015, 20:12
I have noticed that the times when the AI is too fast, they are able to brake a lot later than is possible for the player. Even in cars with ABS, where the player suffers from no skill disadvantage, the AI can brake significantly later. This probably has something to do with the simplified physics they use. But it makes it pretty much impossible to overtake them under braking, and it makes it very vulnerable for the player to be overtaken.

Well, the alternative is to make them slower or faster on the straights wrt to difficulty level, which would be much more unrealistic IMO.

Schnizz58
22-06-2015, 20:16
Well, the alternative is to make them slower or faster on the straights wrt to difficulty level, which would be much more unrealistic IMO.
How so? I think it's more unrealistic for them to have brakes made out of unobtainium than it is for them to be faster in the straights.

Bealdor
22-06-2015, 20:18
How so? I think it's more unrealistic for them to have brakes made out of unobtainium than it is for them to be faster in the straights.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Artificially reducing topspeed to make the AI laptimes slower is the worst way to handle handle AI difficulty.

Schnizz58
22-06-2015, 20:23
Sure we can agree to disagree but I really was just trying to understand why you felt that was more realistic. I thought perhaps I was overlooking something. Some cars are faster than others so I don't see why that would be unrealistic. Allowing the cars to brake where it's not possible is by definition unrealistic.

caslad81
22-06-2015, 20:28
I like the braking of most of the cars apart from the DTMs. Fixing the AIs lines would be the most realistic thing to do. Running around with a full tank of fuel makes things fun, but its not a solution.

Bealdor
22-06-2015, 20:31
Sure we can agree to disagree but I really was just trying to understand why you felt that was more realistic. I thought perhaps I was overlooking something. Some cars are faster than others so I don't see why that would be unrealistic. Allowing the cars to brake where it's not possible is by definition unrealistic.

To me it feels more realistic to be able to outbrake them (or getting outbraked by them) depending on the AI level than being able to easily overtake them on the straights because they're 40kph slower at 50% AI strength for example.

Awong124
22-06-2015, 20:32
Tweaking braking points is a good method, up to a certain degree, until it gets to the point where it becomes physically impossible for the player to match. Tweaking cornering speeds is probably the most realistic, since taking corners is probably the area that differs the most depending on skill of the player. But I guess that would be the most difficult to optimize from a developer's point of view.

I agree with Bealdor that straight line speed should just be whatever the car is capable of regardless of AI difficulty, because it takes no skill to plant the throttle.

caslad81
22-06-2015, 21:05
Another problem seems to be that the player has too much grip during practice compared to quali. My times are almost always very similar while the AIs can vary by over 2 seconds.

Bealdor
22-06-2015, 21:12
Another problem seems to be that the player has too much grip during practice compared to quali. My times are almost always very similar while the AIs can vary by over 2 seconds.

That's most likely the AI qualifying with full tanks in career mode. This will be fixed, most likely with the next build.

caslad81
23-06-2015, 05:36
That's most likely the AI qualifying with full tanks in career mode. This will be fixed, most likely with the next build.

But I don't use the career mode, so it will not be fixed. The fact is the balancing is well off, I have to use a full tank of fuel to compensate for the slow AI. In qualifying it works and its hard, but in practice I'm still 1st by miles as the AI are already fully fuelled. This game could be the best sim off all time, until these things are fixed though it really spoils the effort gone into it.