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Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 22:01
Here you cand find tunes and tutorials created by MULTIVITZ

MULTIVITZ
29-05-2015, 22:31
Thanks Rodger.
If anyone wants to watch people showing off go on youtube its full of them. If you want to learn road craft. Read a book adout it then go for a drive.
If you want to learn from others help then PM me.
I won't throw my dummy out the pram if anyone posts here. But I will complain if your stuff is not relavant.
Thanks for understanding;)

FA RACING 01
29-05-2015, 22:34
Hope the tunes will be good.:cool:

Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 22:36
^^^ thats better.

MULTIVITZ
29-05-2015, 23:06
205226 Are you boys ready, to become....men??
Treat this lady with some respect, and I'll show you how to make her go faster.
Its setup on purpose to learn you, doing is learning, when your comfortable and found any overheating. Then we'll make her sing n dance for ya!

FORMULA A TRAINING TUNE.

Think of it as big boy go karts and you won't go wrong, you have competed in Super karts haven't you??!!
Don't bother trying the setup unless you have, I'm serious.


You'll thank me later;)




Sorry if some remarks on the thread seem sexist, but a car can make you feel good. Like a good women some say.

Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 23:12
I can hardly read that pic... can you not do a screenshot on the PS4 and link to it?


Edit: That's a better pic.

TheLethalDose
29-05-2015, 23:17
Will be interesting to see if he can walk the walk after all the talking he's been doing.

MULTIVITZ
29-05-2015, 23:17
Brake pressure 90%, 54% bias, 70% duct.
Its setup as a training rig! Don't worry its safe! Its a 700bhp race car, treat her with respect.
A training rig for Silverstone GP, some bends are difficult on purpose. If I published some smoothie we wouldn't learn how to get our own style dialled into the chassis. Be careful shes very willing!
7 frt
8 rear for down force
54% distribution
12.0:1 recommemded steering ratio, about 7 laps of Silverstone GP helps realise the steering speed, its fast and has to be worked with the throttle when your in the right gear, thats quite important today. I will show everyone how to stablise the rig and get the best out of it.
91% accelerated
60% decel
200 nm preload
Viscose lock 27% its quiet low for a reason, put your hand up if you know why.
Rad 80% just in case eh.
6.8 final
3.15
2.20
1.68
1.42
1.25
1.14
1.03
37 L fuel
BRAKE MAPPING 2
Biggest size for no restriction! Musics good init.


You'll notice smart acceleration once you can hear the angine growl as it comes on cam. Its very early and you will need to exit corners in third and fourth. And enter them in the appropriate gear, then change up to exit, just like a real car with a real diff that has dialled in axle height control. The brakes are sensitive and reducing the pressure is allowed as long as you share your findings with us. I can't feel how you like to drive otherwise!!!

Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 23:21
You don't say what car this is for, some people might not know.

Edit: Now they know.

MULTIVITZ
29-05-2015, 23:35
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough" ~ Mario Andretti
There is no implied limit, when a chassis is over driven it may lose it's predictablility.

My speed sensitivity is on 45, my steering sensitivity on 25 and controller filtering on 35 there abouts?
Please NO tweaking, turn the brake pressure down to 83% if it feels better. I tuned it with my controller braking and throttle sensitivity on 90%! But I recommend 60%

You won't understand how to drive these machines unless you do Super karting (the painless way on Project Cars!)

NVI0U5
29-05-2015, 23:37
You don't say what car this is for, some people might not know.looks to be a formula a tune

TrevorAustin
29-05-2015, 23:39
My carrot is a banana and shes smooth and feels great. Treat her kindly so she doesnt thrust you.

NVI0U5
29-05-2015, 23:43
"Those toe out figures, I thought you were a chassis tuner? Can you please explain why you have positive .03 on the front followed by positive .02 on the rear? My logic says your trying to split the chassis in half having both sides working against each other, and if the pull isnt so great whats the tire wear like considering the constant fighting between each tire?

TrevorAustin
29-05-2015, 23:46
"Those toe out figures, I thought you were a chassis tuner? Can you please explain why you have positive .03 on the front followed by positive .02 on the rear? My logic says your trying to split the chassis in half having both sides working against each other, and if the pull isnt so great whats the tire wear like considering the constant fighting between each tire?

Its to encourage your inner superkart

NVI0U5
29-05-2015, 23:53
"Those toe out figures, I thought you were a chassis tuner? Can you please explain why you have positive .03 on the front followed by positive .02 on the rear? My logic says your trying to split the chassis in half having both sides working against each other, and if the pull isnt so great whats the tire wear like considering the constant fighting between each tire?


Its to encourage your inner superkart

The only benefit I can see being its tuned for Silverstone GP, so has more straights than corners, is to scrub out the tires as much as possible to gain operating temp halfway around the track, Im hoping there is more to this than just that

Roger Prynne
29-05-2015, 23:56
Trevor please stop with all the cracks.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 00:14
The +3 front wheel toe out is to offset the rears slip angle when exiting under acceleration. I could knock it back a bit but the extra amount gives stability to the axle by way of negative camber thrust when cornering hard. The setup can be altered and handling traits apear. I'm sure if the rear got too slippy and you let go of the wheel, the car would straighten up, without the toe it would carry on into a dounut.

Not all things are relevant at everytime or any time. The chassis compromises itself, tuners mould the compromises through give and take and what ifs.

Toe has many uses, this works for it's intended use on the rig, you'll notice the front tyres will cool down if you're not 'on it' enough! On other tracks they cool down to a point of deflation if you aren't at least 90% committed when driving this training rig.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 00:33
The only benefit I can see being its tuned for Silverstone GP, so has more straights than corners, is to scrub out the tires as much as possible to gain operating temp halfway around the track, Im hoping there is more to this than just that

Have you completed the Super Kart championship? If so, have you drove through the first bend Copse at 160mph+, then flat through to Becketts in the training rig? Remember this is a training rig. DONT COMPLAIN TO ME ABOUT IT, ask me what you need to know about it and I'll try to help. Thanks:rolleyes:

Remember, all car assists OFF!

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 00:59
I welcome criticism of the rig if presented with reasonable posts.

I will be posting updates(time permitting) to it as needed and ask for any intrested members to drive it at another track. At the new track, I will try to explain why I think they help.
The rig will get better, as players will controlling it. We're all on a learning curve. This ain't Forza!

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 01:10
Hope the tunes will be good.:cool:

Thanks. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
What you see here may help you develope your own tune that will be good, for you.
Reducing your time when making tunes. Nobody likes a show off! Unless they're your mates?

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 10:21
When exiting a bend in a high powered vehicle, weight needs to be managed onto the rear wheels. As the wieght shifts backwards the engine builds speed and uses its torque to accelerate the vehicle. The engines torque is as is, but the gearbox amplifies this torque, the work it can do is also increased as shaft speeds increase.
Short shifting is used to control the activation ' speed zone 'of the diffs torque sensitive preload spring. Another method is to alter the final drive ratio, and reset the gear box ratios to suit the engine to the new road speed. This has the effect of changing the torque the diff will see, because of the altered final drive ratio. This is how you tune engine mount flex also.

Adjusting the diff can help lesson the chance of the limited slip differential locking the two back wheels together too soon in a corner and causing control difficulties I'll try to explain. One way to stop premature locking is to let off the gas, another way is to short shift. It works well with the Formula A cars, especially if the car has the diff dialled in to a speed zone that suits the tracks corners/drivers driving style and available road grip/chassis dynamic behaviour/Brake mapping/tyre slip charactor/available camber/aero loads/strength of the components/this isn't an exhaustive list!

The reason these methods works is by reducing the torque to the input shaft of the final drive, allowing easier driver control in the pressure range of the diffs preload by the throttle position. Race engineers have the help of an experienced driver to setup the preload and engagment character, its not hard to learn.
The preload holds the two wheels together like a dragging brake, if one wheel turns faster relative to the other wheel, then the diff closes locking them together more. How much the locking binds depends on the % of counter preload and preload spring strength available and torque input to the diff from either side of its shafts.Gearbox side and road side.
All is ok if the rest of the chassis works and is strong enough, but the main benefit of a sorted LSD arrangement is more tyre temperature control, good stability under engine use, manuvourbility, which all can be improved to a point of satisfacion.
A sorted differencial is the crowning glory of a vehicle setup, it links the engine to the road?

Now I hope that wasn't too complicated, and helped members.
I like to learn by doing, I haven't done everything so if someone thinks they could add anything relevant, please be my guest.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 11:16
The lift and squat behaviour of an axle, can be greatly effected by the diff and its settings, not only by the chassis's design and use. This gives another dimension to sort if the tuner wanted to solve poor handling traits.

Deadzone
30-05-2015, 11:45
I just ran a few laps with this tune, it's nice an stable and still extremely responsive..
Thanks for taking the time to explain why you are making such changes. I'm learning a lot.

Multiviz, Can I swap you with my in game Pit Engineer.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 16:23
I just ran a few laps with this tune, it's nice an stable and still extremely responsive..
Thanks for taking the time to explain why you are making such changes. I'm learning a lot.

Multiviz, Can I swap you with my in game Pit Engineer.

Sorry , but SMS couldn't afford my licencing fees! Lol
But I'm here as me, I have no position, therefore no real responsibilities. Just a bit of encouragment and direction.

If its stable for you great, but I feel you maybe aren't taking risks with her and pushing where you can, try and get the tyres over 250 degree's and see where she takes ya!
Dropping into forth whilst flat into Copse as fast as you can, then take her by the scruff of the neck as you gear up some.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 19:52
This little series of tracks helps players become more aware of these types of cars. It can be undertaken at any time so I'm not like doing a track a week or something slow like that. Now if you're all sure you've completed a Super kart Championship I will reveal the next track we're taking her to.

Dubia Autodrome GP

Its a new track and the smoothly engineered ashfealt allows one to see and hear the tyres working.
Please drive the Rig around the track the best you can and observer its weak points. Unfortunately the rig is a bit of a 'tin tray' if you haven't
noticed already, lets identify the problems then rectify them, as logical as we need. See how many hard laps you can do before the tyres go off! I got them up to 288 degree's front and rear!................tells you something?
Please look at the telemetry as you drive and remember its behaviour as it will change after the next setup change.
There will be 4 core adjustments performed to the training Rig to get it driving around well, without fiddling with her, can you suggest them to someone who cares? I'll leave you with that and post a screen shot and in depth reasons for the very necessary small tweaks. Thanks for reading.

donpost
30-05-2015, 21:24
MULTIVITZ - Can you expand on the pre-load? I know how the diff works in accel and decel, and I know what the pre-load does technically but how do you use it to tune a car. I always by default leave it at 0 because if I am coasting I want the car to be able to rotate as easily as possible, but on the other hand there must be a use for it otherwise it wouldn't even be an option.

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 21:58
MULTIVITZ - Can you expand on the pre-load? I know how the diff works in accel and decel, and I know what the pre-load does technically but how do you use it to tune a car. I always by default leave it at 0 because if I am coasting I want the car to be able to rotate as easily as possible, but on the other hand there must be a use for it otherwise it wouldn't even be an option.
Of coures. Having 0 on the preload is like your mums diff in her car. With your mums car she goes down the shops.
Where are you going?

Preload is the force that the diff locks with. A weak spring will close the diff if the wheels get to a different speed. But not as strongly as a higher preload. Big tyres big grip can overide a too weak a preload. Preload also effects the speed and frequency the diff has. There are a few types of diffs. This game represents them all nicely. Tonight I will demonstrate tuning the diff on the Rig. You might wanna go to bed!
I mean its late, and I may get carried away!

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 22:00
Ok. What did the shake down reveal? I hope your paying attention at the back!
Theres no wrong or right, just what you saw. I hope you drove her really gently after the first turn!
Then gradually learned the track markers and apex points. As you get to grips push a bit harder listening to the engine tone. After a while you'll do something naughty, I do! Shes begging for it. Can you observe the HUD when you get a moment, no not the motec crap! Everything.

Poor turn in at low speeds.
When pushed she bit back, especially on fast exits.
Turning in was difficult, especially after a high speed aproach!
After a while, even with hot tyres, even in high gear exits, she'll shake her ass.

Are you talking about your girl friend again?
We got to sort this out, and I Don't want any fannying around!
I hope you didn't fiddle with her settings. What else did you see?

The tyre slip angle vectors kept waving around, down the flat straights, from the force direction vectors.
Wheels lifting you think and whys that? I couldn't see any wheels lifted, Oi! Bring them wheels back!
If it aint nailed down......
You think the front anti roll bar is too stiff for this track?
And the brakes are sh@t.
Sorry?! You wore the brakes out and you'd like ABS!! No No No don't you swear at me, please we'll get it better but I'm not doing your brakes, I got them to 1300degree's out in the desert. Nothing wrong with them yet.
Why change the ARB setting, I thought the steering was good, transferes its weight ok

So it could be the diff causing all this? Wrong.
Listen carefully to the front tyres, you go up some cambered section and the front right squeeks.
And if you drive it about like you're on safari it gets cold, uncontrollably cold. Oh dear, put ya gloves on and come with me.
Look the things a tin tray and the front tyre collapes cause of the front ani roll bar being like a girder!
Lets do the tyre pressurs first its the fastest,easiest, way the pro's use. Always check your rubber first!!
Is that better? Not bad but you can't turn in, you want more weight transfer? I'll give you weight transfer.
Its undrivable! Lets do the diff, its not bad, reduce the decel to make the back end swing out more if the slip angles will let it. Keeps spinning out. And it span out on a slight curve in the road! Sounds like your viscous couplings a bit high! It still keeps spinning out, spins well early, it maybe the high preload I gave it. Whats it like going into a corner? Not bad but could be better, you drove better. Better than your mums.

Ok the caster is set for the high speed flicking around Silverstone, lets lower that one click.
Magic! But it still spins out and you're going to hit me if I don't lower the front ARB stiffness!!
Its a tin tray and so stiff, when pushed the rear lightens a wheel over transitions in the road.
So if we soften the front ARB it would make it worse, you like playing with spinning tops!
An over stiff rear ARB lightens a rear wheel in cornering, lets soften it to increase rear end complience, but what about the magic turn in! Oh!
The ARB is a spring and becaise it connects to both wheels, has a damping factor as well, so lets increase the rebound to compensate, it should be good. Did you turn the diff right up?
You can't do that.....watch me.
Oh thats much better. It's going like an old scrubber down the main straight. Let's take some toe off and increase the camber for edge temperatures sake.
Whats she stopping like now, give us some laps then?

donpost
30-05-2015, 22:13
Having 0 on the preload is like your mums diff in her car. With your mums car she goes down the shops.
Where are you going?

Preload is the force that the diff locks with. A weak spring will close the diff if the wheels get to a different speed. But not as strongly as a higher preload. Big tyres big grip can overide a too weak a preload. Preload also effects the speed and frequency the diff has. There are a few types of diffs. This game represents them all nicely. Tonight I will demonstrate tuning the diff on the Rig. You might wanna go to bed!

When big grip tyres override a weak preload, couldn't you just increase the accel and decel settings individually and get the same effect as increasing the preload - or is there a difference?

JeyD02
30-05-2015, 22:31
Tyre temp?

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 22:57
When big grip tyres override a weak preload, couldn't you just increase the accel and decel settings individually and get the same effect as increasing the preload - or is there a difference?

Read my diff post, preload gives BITE and a speedy one. Accel n decel decide how hard
It gives a torque range to work in. A too low preload around a wide turn could lock the wheels too soon and have a bad effect on the cars line or break away the grip. Bigger preload is like going up a stage, small tyres don't like high preloads I fear. Check out the Lotus thats got massive ones!

MULTIVITZ
30-05-2015, 23:00
Tyre temp?

Did they go red?
Did you lose control?
Were they uneven?
Were the edges burning?
How many laps did you manage on a stint before they went off??

Its a training Rig, the setup don't have an optimum temperature for its tyres. If I gave you one, it would be misleading. Now pay attention. What temperatures do you like and how long do they give you before you don't like 'em. It's a training Rig not a puppet.
Any questions?

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 00:21
205444
Dubia GP Rig Summary. 99% ACCEL, 40% DECEL, 25% VISCOUS COUPLING, PRELOAD MAX as before.Brake Mapping 2.to stop rear lock under hard stops.Rear bumpstops 28mm Front 6mm. Have a play with the wedge! Everthings the same as before, check every detail plesase. Enjoy, next track we look at yout mum. Again!

JeyD02
31-05-2015, 01:32
Did they go red?
Did you lose control?
Were they uneven?
Were the edges burning?
How many laps did you manage on a stint before they went off??

Its a training Rig, the setup don't have an optimum temperature for its tyres. If I gave you one, it would be misleading. Now pay attention. What temperatures do you like and how long do they give you before you don't like 'em. It's a training Rig not a puppet.
Any questions?
Lol I actually haven't tried it but I wondered how's the tire heat degradation and wear efficiency with that setup :). After all the tires is one of the most important element when racing. So best contact for all race.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 01:43
Lol I actually haven't tried it but I wondered how's the tire heat degradation and wear efficiency with that setup :). After all the tires is one of the most important element when racing. So best contact for all race.

You'll find out mate. Well you know it's a training Rig? Thats what it does. I got 3 laps out of her around Dubia GP so I guess they're for qualy. But I was pushing hard. The races in these car might get boring if no one can finish a longish race!! Where's my pit crew? On a tea break!
Have a go,stop asking questions and dive in. You have to do the course though! Or I tell your mum you've been looking at strangers cars!

JeyD02
31-05-2015, 03:07
You'll find out mate. Well you know it's a training Rig? Thats what it does. I got 3 laps out of her around Dubia GP so I guess they're for qualy.
Have a go,stop asking questions and dive in. You have to do the course though! Or I tell your mum you've been looking a strangers cars!

Lol, well well. I guess I'll give it a spin. What wheel you use? assuming you use one.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 03:24
Ussumption is the......of all.........ups.

Im on a pad. And from what I hear this game ain't bad. They are having seperate leaderboards of sorts.
Early days yet, I'm not complaining much, just the odd gripe:rolleyes:
Don't let it put you off I'm a luvlee geeza. My controller details are in the thread, so even wheel users can try the tunes. The only thing I will say is that the steering speed and ratio are important for getting the car nice. Steering ratio first if she don't drive properly and if you really want a proper go then maybe your wheel settings are too slow for this tune and you may want to tweak them, like I say the games good others have no problems between tunes.
My controller settings stay the same between all cars, except the Karts, you need to do karts before driving these cars, stop smiling.....whats so funny? Suit up n boot up, dont scratch my helmit!

JeyD02
31-05-2015, 03:34
Ussumption is the......of all.........ups.

Im on a pad. And from what I hear this game ain't bad. They are having seperate leaderboards. But don't let that put you off.
Early days yet, I'm not complaining much, just the odd gripe:rolleyes:
Don't let it put you off I'm a luvlee geeza. My controller details are in the thread, so even wheel users can try the tunes. The only thing I will say is that the steering speed and ratio are important for getting the car nice. Steering ratio first if she don't drive properly and if you really want a proper go then maybe your wheel settings are too slow for this tune and you may want to tweak them, like I say the games good others have no problems between tunes.
My controller settings stay the same between all cars, except the Karts, you need to do karts before driving these cars, stop smiling.....whats so funny? Suit up n boot up, dont scratch my helmit!

Don't sweat it, pads has its own traits. Perhaps it's different driving characteristics.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 03:37
Wheel is more accurate. imo

JeyD02
31-05-2015, 03:53
Wheel is more accurate. imo

Well, it's a given, more precision. And not to forget all the games inputing feedback. But meh even pad users exploit trail breaking to the max.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 04:03
Well, it's a given, more precision. And not to forget all the games inputing feedback. But meh even pad users exploit trail breaking to the max.

Its usually the best way (trial braking) helps if your camber and diff are in range. Your telling me you can't turn down the FB? Oj
Must get my tuning sleep. ........KART!

JeyD02
31-05-2015, 04:10
Its usually the best way (trial braking) helps if your camber and diff are in range. Your telling me you can't turn down the FB? Oj
Must get my tuning sleep. ........KART!

Meh, I prefer threshold as much possible.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 08:44
I'm back again(under 5 hours of sleep), excellent. You like the cockpit wheel matching the movement from yours, cool. Have you done the Super Karts yet laddy?

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 12:51
Enough chit chat, let's get down to business.
Not everyone likes my style of presentation, thats understandable. People like others to get spoken to the same way as they speak to others, with respect and patience. In the learning environment its different, the aspects of the subject have to be known and respected. Otherwise the learner will get confused and lessons risk being uneffective. Please bare this in mind if you don't have experience in the learning environment or of the subject. I hope this statement don't rattle anyones cage, its only a game!! Regards-Mark.


For those who have convinced themselves the Formula A cars needs gentle tappy tappy treatment fine you do your thing, I am judging you, it's only natural. But please don't put other's off with what I'm doing here, I may not be the fastest hot lapper, but my involvement in this type of game is shall we say, vast. You won't find me on facebook, doesn't mean I don't have a life. Thank you for your time.

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 22:53
So you wanna go fast, I'm not sure you're ready. You didn't get the brakes up to temperature and you know nothing about tyres! This ain't a Kart! Go do some homework and come back later I have a treat waiting.
It's got 10 turns,..... no don't swear at me thats worse than ABS!! Stop butting in! We're off to corner cutters paradise, yep you got it,
La Circiut Bugatti.

A twisty little thing with a tricky chicane in the middle, and plenty of sand!
You said you wanna go fast, you need to know about downforce if go wanna go fast, so I'm wacking the wings up full. I don't want you adjusting it, not yet. First I have to tell you its got a full tank, when it was on the corner scales I thought your mum was sitting in it!

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 22:59
205644

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 23:10
With full wing and a full tank this tank still flys, so watch it!
75% brake pressure, 52% bias, 3% brake ducts now they will pop you're eyes, but not until the tanks half empty!
The diff we had in Dubia killed those soft tyres. Seeing as the tyres are rock hard you won't want a mechanical lock upsetting things, so I set it like your mums. Only joking, the viscous was enough.
24% on all diff values and vicous coupling.Lets you get around the chicane! Use 6th, 5th, 4th, or any gear you like. Its awkward and makes you steer like a man on pupose, trail braking is a future track skill with a braking session, any track suggestions?

NO PRELOAD!

Now you can use your brakes hard, the mappings on full, but don't go silly. You've got 200 odd litres of petrol to slow down, drop your gears late!
When you do a free session, the rubber can build up around the track. This will help you simulate race conditions, so don't think your setup is great until you come back for a fresh test. She's not that good on juice. I got a gallon a lap out of 'er! You do the maths!
This is a Training Rig remember, she's safe to drive till the tanks dry, if you want more grip in later stints then let some air out the tyres. Don't swap driver, you'll have to go around again and knowing you, you'll speed in the pit lane! You'll have to do testing to see.


Hows that homework, do you know your telemetry now?
Whats them pretty pink slip rings all about when you spin up on the sand??
How long did the tyres last?
Could you feel the improvement after a couple of laps?
Where's your mum at? Get me some geen tea please:rolleyes:

MULTIVITZ
31-05-2015, 23:50
Downforce, not a very descriptive name is it? But thats what it is, a force that pushes down on the cars bodywork if the air is controlled over its surface. Jim Hall is the father of it, and it was many year until engineers really got to grip with understanding it. Even today things like vortices are being realised to do work on vehicle surfaces.
What does it do to the car? It loads the tyres, it shortens suspension travel by compressing the road springs, gives heavy steering, causes suspension vibration from the road springs, alters the working geometry, works heat into the tyres, increases grip, allows more braking from the back, reduces top speed, stablises the ride. This list is what happens to a vehicle that has not been prepared for aerodynamic downforce. So how do we prepare?

Stiffer springs? Maybe!
Hard tyres? Maybe!
More rear brake bias? Maybe!
Jack up the ride height? Maybe!
Increase damping? Maybe!
Shorten top gear? Maybe!
Preset geometry? Maybe!
Increase steering ratio? Maybe!

First you need to know what types of aero devices are fitted to the car!
Then you need to know how they work!
Then you need to know what track you're going to!
Its alot to take in, but there's fundermentals to follow when setting up for downforce.

Most people get told that downforce is good and it makes you go faster bla, bla, bla.
Downforce creates a rebound damping effect, this is because its holding the body down!
To make a left turn the left tyre flexes out releasing the left road spring this, releasing of excess energy is what lifts up that side and passes(transferes) it to the other, compressing the right side tyre onto the road, giving grip.
If the springs are not firm enough to release any excess energy when under downforce, heavy steering is felt, and in bad cases the car will not turn!! If you hit a bump and lose wedge, whats the worst that can happen? If you're going fast enough, the car will take off, it happens in the game!
When it pushes onto a car the springs go firm. The wheel hits a bump and the springs go firmer, after the bump the spring releases its energy and the rebound damping can't cope, so it pounds the tyres and vibrates the car, it will cause lose of grip! Some Forza tuners use it to slide the back out!
If downforce creates rebound damping effect, harder springs, bouncy ride, low ride height, excess stability, what can you as a tuner do about it?
Bound, not bind, but bound. The spring experiences bump and is bound by friction. The spring shares its bump force with friction from various places. Effectionatly know as bump stiffness. I prefer bound.

How bound works.
A car hits a bump, its constantly doing it as it traverses the pavement, you wouldn't keep your licence long in the UK!
The suspension moves up, the spring get compressed, the bump moves out the way, the spring returns the suspension back to it original position, ready for the next bump, agreed?
If bound is set on a spring it will arrest the bump and not let the spring have the energy by reducing the movement it would have moved up.
That stops the vibration by stabalising spring/suspension movement.
Fitting harder springs restores light steering.
Reducing damper rebound, negates (goes against) excess rebound effect from the downforce.
Bound preserves ride height by limiting suspension bump travel.
Toe out can encourage instability, reducing wing stability.
Leaving gearing high, incase of a draft tow. Stops over reving.
Everything else is on a need to adjust basis, to preserve the angle of incidence, we call it wedge?! Wedge improves the aero performance or reduces it! It is the most important aspect of car handling and grip.

Drive the Rig, look at the damper and spring settings, once you're in the editing screen! Fully laden and full aero, same camber! Lowered to improve diffuser, near max tyre pressures, same gearing,Very stiff springs, matched ARB's, reduced rebound, better brake bias, someone stole the bumbstops!
She steam rollers kerbs, but watch the grond clearance! Where next?

tigerpaw11
01-06-2015, 08:33
You seem to have tons of knowledge in this subject Multivitz, thanks for sharing. As for me, new in tuning the f1 car (the real way) as well as not having english as my native tongue, the terms being used is sometimes confusing, as the greece language��. But i'm picking up bits and pieces and try to learn...something.

Again, thanks for sharing.

FA RACING 01
01-06-2015, 09:21
Some great info in here for a tuning knoob like me MULTIVITZ, thanks. Sometimes struggles to get your sentence order and context right, but I'm learning. As for your presentation skills, I think that sucks.

Mowzer
01-06-2015, 09:31
Very nice saved for future reference thanks guys :).

MULTIVITZ
01-06-2015, 11:03
Some great info in here for a tuning knoob like me MULTIVITZ, thanks. Sometimes struggles to get your sentence order and context right, but I'm learning. As for your presentation skills, I think that sucks.

Everyones different. No one likes a clone!
I sometimes reiterate posts 5 times so its not plain sailing. If you see a commer, take a breath or pause for though?
I'm fed up with having to dig out and research for information, finding truths. Peoples outlooks imho are phsycochemically formed as well as spiritual, some more that others. They call it diversity these days. I found out twenty years ago its not all, mokey see mokey do, some say it is. I want to share my views, but thats all they are, theres some gems in there I'm sure!
I'm quite good at boilling down the relevants. Finding out what matters in essence.

Cutting to the chase is a no nonsense approach that can be dangerous if you can't see ahead.
I present it like this to create a memorable experience for anyone who's intrested, people like to be entertained while they learn, it helps memory. I could talk on some very serious subjects but you wouldn't believe me, so this keeps me happy helping peeps.
I'm sorry my presention skills are not to your liking, we can't please everyone. Cheer up mate, not long 'til the patch.

donpost
01-06-2015, 11:25
I'm sure you have lots to share, but your posts read like they were written by this guy:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/1/16778/381800-34749-riddler.gif

What weather conditions/time are we supposed to be using to follow along? Practice sessions are "light cloud" by default but time trials are "clear" which is hotter weather so less grippy. I got a 1:35.5 with your Silverstone GP tune in Time Trial weather/fuel conditions, without using KERS or DRS. I can't really comment on the tune because I haven't tried Formula A before. I will say it is very stable though, in that if I half-spin on the brakes or whatever the car basically corrects itself.

MULTIVITZ
01-06-2015, 14:49
I'm glad you noticed the humour. Haven't you used that jpeg somewhere before? At least you didn't use the Riddler eh?
She should correct herself. Alot of it is to do with the dampers and how they settle after a tyre bounce. I prefer light cloud, on some tracks the clear sky is a bit bright.
We havent covered KERS yet. I think most players don't realise how involved driving is, with these cars. With tyre management, carbon brakes, short travel suspension, KERS, DRS, Brutal acceleration, and fragile bodywork the cars require alot of commitment to handle. You can't just get in and drive for fun imo. The cars are great fun if everyones happy with them.

HewisLamilton6
01-06-2015, 16:36
WOW<<<< loads of information!! Sounds like you know your stuff, keep it coming!! @Multivitz

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 01:16
Thank you, young man. Those Karts payed off then? Lol
Do you like tunnels? I bet you do! This week end they closed off Monaco for some GT racing, and we've managed to get some time dan the track.
Pack ya suit and grab your passport. It's party time.

Azure Curuit, Monaco.

As you've seen on TV this circuit is full of trouble, one mistake and you're a pinball!
The motor is still turned up but I've dialled in your diff so launching out all those turns is going to be safe.
You don't need your ear plugs as the tunnels been sound proofed!
Shes having trouble getting her brakes upto temperature so the brake pressure is on max, just watch it as they come on heat.Ow La La!
Just remember to brake hard at the start of the kerb as you come out the tunnel and you'll be fine.
Don't let me catch you using any assist, you won't need them.
If you want to change the gearing thats fine, leave the final drive alone it won't do you any favours!

56% Brake bias, 100% Brake pressure, 5% ducts.
12 front wing, 10 rear wing, 4.5:1 steering ratio, 96% ACCEL, 30% DECEL, 200Nm Preload, 4% Viscous lock, 80% Rad.
6.8 Final drive
3.00
2.13
1.68
1.42
1.25
1.14
1.03 gears.
37 L fuel
NO BRAKE MAPPING! ITS 0.Have a play with the Weight Bias, you never know.
You got taught the basics in Karting, all you got to do now is learn to drive these, then you can think about racing these machines. Don't you worry about KERs thats just a go faster button, like you see on telly!

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 02:07
Anti-Roll Bar, look it up on wiki, especially the principles section. You done that? Ok.
How do we choose, adjust them?
In the downforce post, I explained how a turn is initiated through spring release and controlled by the rebound, especially the slow rebound. Together they create the speed of lean, speed of the lean moment. Without enough rebound the car would lean so fast on heavy springs, it would fall over, remember the rebound effect of downforce! It holds the car on the ground at lower speeds the same car hits a kerb and rolls if theres not enough rebound or the springs (including the ARB thats a spring)are too strong. Bound may help or hinder it depends on the speed damping.

ARB push the outer tyres, increasing the slip angle of that tyre making it slide if over done. Thier(the axles ARB) stiffness of spring weight should be subtracted from the roll stiffness, i.e. both the road springs, and rebound damping set to control the left over springy lean making stiffness energy(N/mm) of the road springs. Read it again. The sum of the ARB stiffness should not exceed the total road spring stiffness unless you want some fun!
In this game we have clicks, each car has dampers that are matched to it suspension. The clicks match the springs to a certain degree. Listen to every word Wilfred says in his tutorial videos (except about temps vs pressure lol he was was right, but didn't explain grip threshold pressures well) and you can't go wrong!

So how do both the ARBs effect the ride when working together?
Each axle has a geometrical centre that the body and that end of the car can tilt around. Think of it as an upset down pendulum. Thats important because your cars overall position of weight presses on the tyres from around that centre. Your belly button is your overall position of weight, its called the centre of gravity of a body.
A higher roll centre usually means slower weight transfere (side to side).
When you hit a bump (the cars doing it all the time, lots of little ones) it sends forces into the chassis and adds them to the centre of gravity for a moment if the roll centre is high the arch(read roll ark!) is wider and the time the enrgy takes to go around it would be longer than a lower roll centre hight.
ARBs connect each side together, when your compress one side the other side goes down with it! The only thing stopping the other side going down as far is the road spring. The bound would just slow it down, or bind it!

So you see ARBs influence the roll centre heights not just the ride heights, some cars more than others. If you had a slower front weight transfere from a higher centre than the rear it means the suspension would settle slower at the front than the rear. This ENCOURAGES a steady state of OVERSTEER, meaning the car wants to go around the corner. They were banging on about it on that wiki page and called it roll coupling. When you've done the corner the springness of the ARB together with the road springs (if thers any left after being squasted by the down force!) level the car's body out again.
Remember the roll centres are geometrical points of areas the centre of gravity works on(like a fulcrum between the road and the body weight with the tyre and stuff being trapped), they are not your ride height, but the centre or gravity when at a higher angle can push down better on the tyre! Higher does not mean less grip, in most cases it means air getting under the body (losing wedge!), or a rear diffuser being stalled.

ARBs control the weight transfere from the springs in a diagonal fashion across the car, the lines of force would look like a cross if viewed from the bids eye from above. But the force has to travel through many components before inflencing the tyres at the opposite side, it takes time and is known as a moment.
Example: Your TransAm keeps losing its back end when exiting a corner at any speed!
You're tried softening the back springs but it keeps doing it!
Remember the energy to break away the tyres grip has to come from somewhere!
Using a firmer front ARB arrested the release of the front road spring because the spring was being held back by the other sides road springs lower position, it was in the corner and connected by the stiffer ARB we were using.

They influence the squat, lift and dive on a lot of cars, by how much is a very complex subject.
Please don't worry about it just drive and tune to get what you want, but remember you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Forget GM thats a terrible shame, don't go with it!!!!!!
And no I'm not talking about General Motors, they make lovely cars.


That joker must have been a closet chassis tuner, but I didn't see it in the films!
Hold up......What's that tool in his hand?? Big fello' eh?
Shame about the hair cut, that won't do him any favours. Now then, settle down and go tune your mums car first.

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 13:07
I tell ya, my mechanics must have been out on the lash last night, the amount of corrections I made was disturbing, lucky I never killer myself when I gave her a shake down. Watch out boys, check and double check everything before you drive, I don't want you writing off my pride and joy, or worse still.............getting banned from a meeting! Now go and kiss some armco;)

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 15:57
"Those toe out figures, I thought you were a chassis tuner? Can you please explain why you have positive .03 on the front followed by positive .02 on the rear? My logic says your trying to splits the chassis in half having both sides working against each other, and if the pull isnt so great whats the tire wear like considering the constant fighting between each tire?

The toe value on the Rigs latest setup for Monaco is 0.9 toe out, and the cars still in one piece! The road course is notorious for tyre wear. I may cover toe in a future post, but it's usually one of the last things done when testing. The extreme level of toe out has an effect of extending the steering lock angle here to get around the tight street turns quickly. A balanced ARB and dampers are essential to maintain control. Its also used in drifting, but they often have extended racks for their steering anyways. I had one on my Mk1 Escort, I spent more time looking out the side windows. lol

If I were to do a tutoral of sorts on tracking it would be with the Nascars, but there's blinding tutorials already on line that covers it. Those Nascar guys know what they're doing, have you ever tried keeping with them in a race on the ovals?

gtFOOTw
02-06-2015, 16:19
The toe value on the Rigs latest setup for Monaco is 0.9 toe out, and the cars still in one piece! The road course is notorious for tyre wear. I may cover toe in a future post, but it's usually one of the last things done when testing. The extreme level of toe out has an effect of extending the steering lock angle here to get around the tight street turns quickly. A balanced ARB and dampers are essential to maintain control. Its also used in drifting, but they often have extended racks for their steering anyways. I had one on my Mk1 Escort, I spent more time looking out the side windows. lol
Hmmm... In the real world a positive number is "toe-in", does this game have it backward the way Forza does?

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 17:03
WOW<<<< loads of information!! Sounds like you know your stuff, keep it coming!! @Multivitz

Thanks mate, I'll try my best. Thanks for the pm. You can see me on the track driving a half tuned group 5 BMW on the Driver Network! The other races were me getting to grips with a RUF n stuff, I get the hang of it towards the end! Lol
You'll see why I only really like racing cars that do as they're told.

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 17:09
Hmmm... In the real world a positive number is "toe-in", does this game have it backward the way Forza does?

I believe so, but it depends on the equipement used to measure it. I was taught to look at my feet by several tutors, they hated me. Now pay attention to the force vectors on your telemetry!?lol
I made comment to what you're saying somewhere else on here. I think the rear toe is the wrong way round?Very confusing the in out. Well spotted.

Think of it as front feet push to slow do back feet push to speed up, especially with a flat battery lol

gtFOOTw
02-06-2015, 18:26
Tires, or feet, pointed toward each other is toe-in. It SHOULD be expressed as a positive number.
Tires, or feet, pointed straight ahead is zero toe. It is expressed as 0.0.
Tires, or feet, pointed away from each other is toe-out. It SHOULD be expressed as a negative number.

I think the game has it right. Most default tunes have negative front toe (it gives more responsive turn-in) and positive rear toe (stabilizes the back of the car).

Your tune has A LOT of toe-in, this should tighten the turning radius slightly but I see no other advantage to such extreme settings.

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 18:41
Shut up? And go do your homework, I'm a busy man. Now look what you've made me do! My Rs has got too much grip and the tyres won't heat up! Time to turn up the boost?

The game has jumps in the settings sometimes, these aren't glitchs, they are there for different types of setups. The RS 500 for example has a 0.7 degrees jump on it's caster settings. Low caster for a stiff low setup and high caster for a leaning jacked up tune. The Rigs toe setting has some empty clicks at 0.9 they ARE to fine tune the feel. Anyway point nine of a degree is nufink to worry about on a track car whats the fuss this ain't For$@. Don't make me swear, anymore out of you and I'll get your mum down here. Have you done that homework yet!?

Both slight toe in and out give resposive turn in on any presision chassis. Its because the tyre has preloaded force that initiates a slight release of spring energy or loaded camber thrust from the tyre side wall.
I hope this clears up your confusion.

By the way the tutorial posts are written by me on the fly. I don't sit there with a pen and paper composing them. The Rig is my learning tool to, we're all on a learning curve. We all get it wrong sometimes, this time its you. Why don't you drive the Rig? Then do your thing to it........mmmmmm. If it were toeing in as you say , the front wheels would fight each other off the track. Handling you obviously enjoy? imo
In towards the car, out away from the car on the leading edge called the toe. Go play with your horses lol
Tyres warm now, oh I forgot how violent this boost is, wheres that diff. I said diff not div!

gtFOOTw
02-06-2015, 19:18
You throw around a lot of jargon and don't address a point I made.
You Sir, are full of bovine manure.

Sankyo
02-06-2015, 19:28
Drop the personal attacks guys, no-one will learn anything from that.

lobosrul
02-06-2015, 20:42
Tires, or feet, pointed toward each other is toe-in. It SHOULD be expressed as a positive number.
Tires, or feet, pointed straight ahead is zero toe. It is expressed as 0.0.
Tires, or feet, pointed away from each other is toe-out. It SHOULD be expressed as a negative number.

I think the game has it right. Most default tunes have negative front toe (it gives more responsive turn-in) and positive rear toe (stabilizes the back of the car).

Your tune has A LOT of toe-in, this should tighten the turning radius slightly but I see no other advantage to such extreme settings.

Toe in is a negative number in pcars. Toe out is a positive one. I was doing some laps in the Lotus 49 last night, toe-out (a positive number) makes the car more stable accelerating after the apex of a curv.

gtFOOTw
02-06-2015, 21:04
Toe in is a negative number in pcars. Toe out is a positive one. I was doing some laps in the Lotus 49 last night, toe-out (a positive number) makes the car more stable accelerating after the apex of a curv.

Ok, I'm with you most of the way. Positive toe on the rear of the car is a very easy way to stabilize it and keep it hooked up. But that is toe-in giving that effect. Toe-out on the rear of a car will make it rotate like a fork-lift, like rear wheel steering. This is usually never necessary except for a car with bad under steer.

MULTIVITZ
02-06-2015, 21:28
Still 'ere! When you 2 have finish talking a load of twaddle. Can you not use this thread to talk about something you have little idea about. When you're doing tracking everyday of your life for real you would understand. I've explained it in detail. All your doing is misleading members with misconceptions. You've already been warned by the moderators.
Thank you for adding absolutly nothing of value here. All you are doing is showing little respect for the game, site etiquet, and you own knowledge.
Please delete your posts. As they have no relevants here. I will ammend/delete mine to suit, as I wouldn't want to leave post that have little value or unecessary rudeness. Thanks for your cooperation.

Bloody geezas messeging me now telling me to google it lol the first picture you see 'toe in' and a picture of a cars front end with the wheels pointing in OMG then he says he's a master mechanic lol master spanner. He must be lonely, I see a couple have gave him a hug:rolleyes:

Scrub is the main reason toe is used.

donpost
03-06-2015, 14:29
The toe value on the Rigs latest setup for Monaco is 0.9 toe out, and the cars still in one piece! The road course is notorious for tyre wear. I may cover toe in a future post, but it's usually one of the last things done when testing. The extreme level of toe out has an effect of extending the steering lock angle here to get around the tight street turns quickly. A balanced ARB and dampers are essential to maintain control. Its also used in drifting, but they often have extended racks for their steering anyways. I had one on my Mk1 Escort, I spent more time looking out the side windows. lol

If I were to do a tutoral of sorts on tracking it would be with the Nascars, but there's blinding tutorials already on line that covers it. Those Nascar guys know what they're doing, have you ever tried keeping with them in a race on the ovals?

I'm confused here Multi - you say in this post you have 0.9 toe out, but your screenshot shows 0.9 toe in - is that a display error? I'm assuming that you mean toe out because of what you say about extending the steering lock.

How did you decide upon 0.9 - why not 0.8 or 1.0 for example?

EDIT: Ah I see you just edited your post again, so 0.9 gets just enough heat into the tyres?

MULTIVITZ
03-06-2015, 18:38
[QUOTE=donpost;964934I'm confused here Multi - you say in this post you have 0.9 toe out, but your screenshot shows 0.9 toe in - is that a display error? I'm assuming that you mean toe out because of what you say about extending the steering lock.

How did you decide upon 0.9 - why not 0.8 or 1.0 for example?

EDIT: Ah I see you just edited your post again, so 0.9 gets just enough heat into the tyres?[/QUOTE]

I'm doing a tracking guide tonight, if I get time, should help clear up some issues. Sorry I've been a bit off, it's all the stress. And no, not to heat the tyres in this case, sorry you'll see tonight!
The title of the setting says 'toe in' but the value is 0.9, if it was toe in, it would have a minus sign in front of it. like -0.9 .Naughty game lol
Theres fine adjustments at .9 that are hidden, they do work so be careful and test drive to see if its ok. Theres lots of hidden stuff that applies to things in certain ways. OMFG its just lost my escort tune I was working on all afternoon while the misses was out.......mother f@#@er. If we had a paint shop for ps4.........
Now its swapped tracks for f@#@s sake
And the cars aaaaarrrh.....reload!
Didn't bother reloading, now its crashed again. FOR THE LOVE OF CARS!

donpost
03-06-2015, 19:38
Are you 100% sure about that? If I use a negative toe number, the force vectors on the telemetry point outwards. If I use a positive toe number, they point inwards.

Maybe a WMD member can confirm?

Also a bit more feedback on the Silverstone tune: I moved the brake bias forward to 56% as I could see on the external telemetry program that the rears were locking first. I also shut the brake vents because there's only a couple of hard braking zones here and the brakes were too cold. The extra confidence this gave me on the brakes and the extra speed on the straights from closing the vents meant I shaved a nearly a second off of my time immediately!

Off to try closing up the radiator now too...

gtFOOTw
03-06-2015, 22:51
Are you 100% sure about that? If I use a negative toe number, the force vectors on the telemetry point outwards. If I use a positive toe number, they point inwards.

Maybe a WMD member can confirm?

Also a bit more feedback on the Silverstone tune: I moved the brake bias forward to 56% as I could see on the external telemetry program that the rears were locking first. I also shut the brake vents because there's only a couple of hard braking zones here and the brakes were too cold. The extra confidence this gave me on the brakes and the extra speed on the straights from closing the vents meant I shaved a nearly a second off of my time immediately!

Off to try closing up the radiator now too...

That's the point I've been trying to make about toe.
The adjustment is called toe-in.
When the number is positive +, the tires are pointed in.
When the number is negative -, the tires are pointed out.
IF I'M WRONG, PROVE IT, WITH EVIDENCE.

MULTIVITZ
03-06-2015, 22:54
The brake bias is personal choice, but the Rig had been set to use in trial braking for late turn in. Closing the ducts was the right thing to do, only on a hot day with a fuel load they would be needed. The brakes grab good when hot and the bias would need to be reveiwed. I'll do better tunes soon so you can have a proper setup that optimises the thermals and is easier to push and stop.

MULTIVITZ
03-06-2015, 23:01
Scrub is the real reason toe is added to the geometry.
When a car encounters a bump the wheels move out its way, they can't move staight up vertically on most suspension designs. They move out to the side slightly, you'll see the effect after a car has been lowered on a jack, the tyre tucks in holding the ride higher.

Suspension is designed to self correct, that means when it encounters a bump or a corner the geometry of it's linkages move the wheel to compensate for the forces that atempt to alter the slip angle of the tyres. This reduces the drivers need the alter the position of the steering wheel.

A car with adjustable suspension has to have it's slip angles dialled in after adjustment sometimes.
We have been told the default toe settings of the chassis in this game have been set to the cars require ments. They can be changed to enhance the slip angles to create effects like tyre heating, stability, looseness, asymmetrically for oval tracks, extending angles, grip.
For high ride heights some race cars in real life and some games, have height adjustable steering racks to compensate for the steering(track rod) rod angle. Even then toe is usually added.
If the track rod angle is out of its necessary range it needs to work in to maintain self correction, you get an effect called 'bump steer'. Dune buggies suffer from bump steer if they haven't been built right!

Most cars have toe, it preloads the tyre wall putting camber thrust into the chassis creating stability. Camber thrust is generated by the resistance of the tyre wall as it flexes out the way of the road.
This can be quite a powerful force when the tyres are nicely inflated and usually comes from one side, or the other of a tyre when cornering. Strange steering forces are felt if the dynamic camber is wrong when cornering i.e. too much Caster angle, excessive toe, damaged suspension.
Large amounts of toe is this game aren't really that much, some race cars can have several degrees to negate the grip of large back tyres to enable more maneuverability around tight turns.
You can check for scrub using the games telemetry, when the yellow lines move away from the black ones thats the 'slip angle' causing scub away from the force direction angle line.
The difference between slip and scrub is there general behaviour.
Scrub goes side ways to the general direction of force graining the rubber.
Slip is more in tune with the tyre carcass and is a more predictable force, both can harm the longevity or the tyres.
It is possible to hook the tyres up the the road surface in this game and have very little slip, usually the outer most ones when cornering but often the drive wheels and front braking wheels, you won't see the grip rings. Getting extra body lean is a good method or riding a kerb helps, but just be ready for when the grip lets go! The advantage of wide tyres is not their large contact patch in most cases, but thier ability to hold grip at large dynamic camber angles. This helps the driver maintain grip and direction at varying car body lean/roll angles. The only dowm side is all that rubber needs to be kept warm and moved/controlled by the car!

When toe is applied to the rear drive wheels that have a limited slip differential the inner, or outer wheel can influence the thrust angle angle of a vehicle. The dirrection of the angles force depends on the most dominant grip one tyre might have be virtue of it's contact patch size dictated through camber and weight being applied from the cars centre of gravity and centre of aerodynamic force.

It doesn't matter weather the slip is more at the front or back end as long as the intended course is being maintained, what can and does matter is the position of the contact patch to the width of the tyre. Some tyres are designed to cope with it differently. This game has this in its tyre physics model. You can feel it when driving!

Roger Prynne
03-06-2015, 23:06
206003

gtFOOTw
03-06-2015, 23:19
Scrub is the real reason toe is added to the geometry.
When a car encounters a bump the wheels move out its way, they can't move staight up vertically on most suspension designs. They move out to the side slightly, you'll see the effect after a car has been lowered on a jack, the tyre tucks in holding the ride higher.
Uh... No, try again. Toe (just the front for now) primarily affects 3 things. Tire wear, straight line stability, and corner entry handling.

Toe-in helps with straight line stability.
Toe-out helps initiate turn-in.

Extremes should be avoided.

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 00:31
Its covered when I stated to look at your telemetry. You have to consider what you've got. Theres no hard and fast rules. You didn't design the chassis, you weren't there when it was tested. You're tuning it. Now can you see what I'm getting at when I can't answer all the silly questions people keep asking. They can't help it. Nor can I. Great game though init?;)

If this guy was a mechanic, he would know that geometry settings are issued by the manufacturer of a car and the measuring method used is not always the same! It's only in recent years its become fairly standardised. I really don't care what comes out your cake hole, you're not listening and making a complete ass out of yourself. And good day to you sir and all. Optomist loser?!

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 00:36
By the way theres just as many pretty pictures that state the opposite to the diagram above. Now you're all being petty lol tell someone who cares, as long as the car drives properly and doesn't shed its tread! Dear oh dear, now you're behaving like a bunch of Forza fools lol


Don't talk do, just read your telemetry, whats next, any curiosities?

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 00:40
Uh... No, try again. Toe (just the front for now) primarily affects 3 things. Tire wear, straight line stability, and corner entry handling.

Toe-in helps with straight line stability.
Toe-out helps initiate turn-in.

Extremes should be avoided.


Ummmm.....................No!
Toe direction only provides stability when correctly aplied to the cambered edge through the tyres carcass! Also stated in my toe post! The dead ahead feel of the wheel can be changed through front toe if you want. An unstable effect happens if you have the toe working the tyre in the opposite thrust, some people like this and can help turn in when using light wheel movements. Dear oh dear. Calls himself a master mechanic. Your not an engineer then?
A sorry and a thank you would be nice, but you can't have it all lol

gtFOOTw
04-06-2015, 01:04
I'm just going to step away now and leave you alone with the voices in your head. Have a nice day.

Zippy_McFunshine
04-06-2015, 02:52
Ummmm.....................No!
...Your not an engineer then?


*you're

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 08:38
Oh dear here come the gramma police! F@#k off coppaa! It must be your first nick on this site? (First post) I did notice it before I went to bed I'm sure theres others. Is that the only one you found? Can you check the rest of my posts young man seeing as you've got a keen eye for the obvious things. Theres always one everywhere you go, thats not diversity. And the reply will be, your starter for ten, 'just saying...'. Do yourself a favour and stop cluttering boy. Delete it for your self respect. The sentence reads right, in context, because I was putting him down in a colloquial fashion. Dear oh dear. Entertaining ain't I, so are you?

What you need is some help from Mark Passio, his youtube stuff ain't for everyone, but you'll get the picture.
Something to help you out?

Go to Glastonbury, Harry Oldfield does some amazing stuff.

Sankyo
04-06-2015, 09:58
Oh dear here come the gramma police! F@#k off coppaa! It must be your first nick on this site? (First post) I did notice it before I went to bed I'm sure theres others. Is that the only one you found? Can you check the rest of my posts young man seeing as you've got a keen eye for the obvious things. Theres always one everywhere you go, thats not diversity. And the reply will be, your starter for ten, 'just saying...'. Do yourself a favour and stop cluttering boy. Delete it for your self respect. The sentence reads right, in context, because I was putting him down in a colociuall fashion. Dear oh dear. Entertaining ain't I, so are you?

What you need is some help from Mark Passio, his youtube stuff ain't for everyone, but you'll get the picture.
Something to help you out?

Go to Glastonbury, Harry Oldfield does some amazing stuff.
No need to get off like that, eh? Why not ignore and move on instead of creating an opportunity to get your own thread derailed? ;)

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 11:57
Yeah I thought about it, and we can always start again. I know what you're saying. I thought a bit of dry humour would be funny? Thanks for the concern. Now what can I do you for?

Do you realise Marks attitude reasoning?

MULTIVITZ
04-06-2015, 20:48
I was tuning for the community event and BOOM the tune is gone. Where did in go, I don't think the logarithms are stable enough in the file encryption management? Some one ain't done there maths or theres static/back emf thats corrupting the data. The later would mean a recall. We'll have to wait and see. The second time now, scared to tune? Could anyone enlighten me? Thanks.

Zippy_McFunshine
05-06-2015, 02:17
Oh dear here come the gramma police! F@#k off coppaa! It must be your first nick on this site? (First post) I did notice it before I went to bed I'm sure theres others. Is that the only one you found? Can you check the rest of my posts young man seeing as you've got a keen eye for the obvious things. Theres always one everywhere you go, thats not diversity. And the reply will be, your starter for ten, 'just saying...'. Do yourself a favour and stop cluttering boy. Delete it for your self respect. The sentence reads right, in context, because I was putting him down in a colociuall fashion. Dear oh dear. Entertaining ain't I, so are you?

What you need is some help from Mark Passio, his youtube stuff ain't for everyone, but you'll get the picture.
Something to help you out?

Go to Glastonbury, Harry Oldfield does some amazing stuff.

Details matter.

TheLethalDose
05-06-2015, 08:39
Details matter.

Attacking grammar mistakes is a clear sign of using cheap tactics when someone can't think of a solid defence.

Just incase you didn't get the memo, nit picking is far more irritating than grammical errors.

MULTIVITZ
05-06-2015, 09:19
We all mean well, thats all that counts, the intention behind the action is maybe more relevant than the other party realises. Most people have been to school and can read and write, so spotting gramma errors is easy. I just wish I could use spell checker lol
Think of it as swerving your car about a little bit more that necessary, when you need space on the track!

I enjoy helping others out, its only natural, I want to do a tuning guide. But I'm concerned that others will pick holes in it, which is natural thing to do also. But when I tune, I just see what I've got through as much info as I can muster. I'm not the best tuner, but I'm extremely hands on in the tunes development.
I have developed techniques over the years as many others have done also. These techneques are applied as needed, as observations are made. I want to put my tuning into words, some will agree with whats said, some will have a better view and may teach me it by thier comments. I will try to keep it simple, as much as I can, to make it easier for me to write and others to relate to. I want structure to it so things may get rearanged after its written. After all its a black art and theres many ways to approach many different cars and their settings. Thanks for reading, don't touch that dial!

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 11:01
Can I make a friendly suggestion MULTIVITZ...

Don't use silly comments and slang words as these posts are being read by people from all over the world and English may not be their first language, so some may find it hard to understand your strange way of writing.
Just stick to the facts about tuning as this is supposed to be a tuning thread after all.

You might get more followers if you do these things.

Some examples below....


OMFG its just lost my escort tune I was working on all afternoon while the misses was out.......mother f@#@er. If we had a paint shop for ps4.........
Now its swapped tracks for f@#@s sake
And the cars aaaaarrrh.....reload!
Didn't bother reloading, now its crashed again. FOR THE LOVE OF CARS!


Still 'ere! When you 2 have finish talking a load of twaddle.


Bloody geezas messeging me now telling me to google it lol the first picture you see 'toe in' and a picture of a cars front end with the wheels pointing in OMG then he says he's a master mechanic lol master spanner. He must be lonely, I see a couple have gave him a hug


Shut up? And go do your homework, I'm a busy man. Now look what you've made me do! My Rs has got too much grip and the tyres won't heat up! Time to turn up the boost?


I tell ya, my mechanics must have been out on the lash last night, the amount of corrections I made was disturbing, lucky I never killer myself when I gave her a shake down. Watch out boys, check and double check everything before you drive, I don't want you writing off my pride and joy, or worse still.............getting banned from a meeting! Now go and kiss some armco

thevilleky
05-06-2015, 14:56
Can I make a friendly suggestion MULTIVITZ...

Don't use silly comments and slang words as these posts are being read by people from all over the world and English may not be their first language, so some may find it hard to understand your strange way of writing.
Just stick to the facts about tuning as this is supposed to be a tuning thread after all.



You might get more followers if you do these things.

Some examples below....

I like the thread. It's like a blog version of a Jerry Sienfeld show. Half the time I have no idea what everybody is getting on about, and I am a native english speaker. If you've ever been around a garage there are characters every where. My wife's uncle races top clubman class dragsters, 6.8s quarter miles, and I love being in the pits. Always jolly fun is the brit coloquialism I believe. As long as it's in this one thread, let people enjoy it.

TrevorAustin
05-06-2015, 15:07
I like the thread. It's like a blog version of a Jerry Sienfeld show. Half the time I have no idea what everybody is getting on about, and I am a native english speaker. If you've ever been around a garage there are characters every where. My wife's uncle races top clubman class dragsters, 6.8s quarter miles, and I love being in the pits. Always jolly fun is the brit coloquialism I believe. As long as it's in this one thread, let people enjoy it.

Lol, this isn't British colloquialism:) and I doubt very much English is Multvitzs primary language, I would guess at East European, not that that matters in the slightest as I can barely manage English so have a lot of respect for people with multiple languages, especially when they can use 2nd or 3rd language slang and know what it means and where to use it.

thevilleky
05-06-2015, 16:21
Lol, this isn't British colloquialism:) and I doubt very much English is Multvitzs primary language, I would guess at East European, not that that matters in the slightest as I can barely manage English so have a lot of respect for people with multiple languages, especially when they can use 2nd or 3rd language slang and know what it means and where to use it.

True dat, american colloquialism. Guess my time in a british crown colony didn't rub of completely. I did pick up m8 a ton until my american buddies were like please shut the f up or speak american again.

ferretfing
05-06-2015, 17:02
MULTIVITZ is clearly a good bloke just trying to help & have a bit of fun at the same time....he's different but different is good! This thread should be treated in the spirit it's meant.....& I can't believe some of you don't think he's British? Of course he is:rolleyes:

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 17:03
Yeah he's an Essex boy.

I meant no offense by the way, just trying to get more people in here for him.

donpost
05-06-2015, 17:25
Different, but there's a place for that.

MULTIVITZ
05-06-2015, 21:08
Theres info here you just wouldn't find easily. Its here to give people answers to there cars problems so they have direction in there adjustments. All the main posts are saved, just incase it gets full of people chatting and sniping. I'm thinking of doing a tuning guide, but I want it to be concise for this game. It may take some time. I haven't looked at half the cars or tracks and then theres the different tyres to try. When I'm more confident, I'll make a start. This forum is another dimension to the game, the game is different and thats going to change the players. Thanks for the intrest.

Fight-Test
09-06-2015, 13:37
No way multi, keep doing ur thing. It's your thread and ur topic and I love the way it is as its not the same old dialogue. Actually you Crack me up and sometimes I have no idea what your going on about but still great. Do your thing. There are always gonna be guys how try and tell everyone else how they should do things because they have no originality on their own or the confidence to back up what they preach. You have both my friend.

I finished second in the PRC preseason race, thanks for help with tune. Steady 1:44's in z4 at catalunya.

DIXON76
09-06-2015, 21:48
The lift and squat behaviour of an axle, can be greatly effected by the diff and its settings, not only by the chassis's design and use. This gives another dimension to sort if the tuner wanted to solve poor handling traits.Errrrr What????? Diff does nothing to the springs to lift squat whatever, diff settings are the rate in which the inside wheels and outside wheels work in conjunction with one another wilst cornering hence accell decell diff, the squat effect is coming from your spring dampening or rear anti rolls or all this working together.

Fight-Test
09-06-2015, 22:32
Everything effects everything on a car. It's not that simple. Read up on antisquat to get u started, should take you down a road much more technical applications of tuning which affect this also. Not to take away from what u said dixon because what u listed are the primary effects.

DIXON76
09-06-2015, 23:19
Everything effects everything on a car. It's not that simple. Read up on antisquat to get u started, should take you down a road much more technical applications of tuning which affect this also.I know its not that simple So if the cars digging in to much or not enougth how would the adjusting the diff sort out this problem ? This for me in a racing game is a new one,because the way i tune diff is the last thing i touch,if there's a problem with springs i'll normally sort that out by adjusting the springs.Diff by adjusting Diff,Gears by adjusting Gears etc, everything does effect everything indirectly..

DIXON76
10-06-2015, 00:39
We all mean well, thats all that counts, the intention behind the action is maybe more relevant than the other party realises. Most people have been to school and can read and write, so spotting gramma errors is easy. I just wish I could use spell checker lol
Think of it as swerving your car about a little bit more that necessary, when you need space on the track!

I enjoy helping others out, its only natural, I want to do a tuning guide. But I'm concerned that others will pick holes in it, which is natural thing to do also. But when I tune, I just see what I've got through as much info as I can muster. I'm not the best tuner, but I'm extremely hands on in the tunes development.
I have developed techniques over the years as many others have done also. These techneques are applied as needed, as observations are made. I want to put my tuning into words, some will agree with whats said, some will have a better view and may teach me it by thier comments. I will try to keep it simple, as much as I can, to make it easier for me to write and others to relate to. I want structure to it so things may get rearanged after its written. After all its a black art and theres many ways to approach many different cars and their settings. Thanks for reading, don't touch that dial!Be happy about people picking holes in it, if they didn't nothing would be ever discussed or learnt, one thing that might help you is to have a more general controller set up for tuning otherwise other people that do have a basic controller set up, will not feel the car handling in the same fashion/way as you do.

MULTIVITZ
10-06-2015, 11:49
Thanks
Errrrr What????? Diff does nothing to the springs to lift squat whatever, diff settings are the rate in which the inside wheels and outside wheels work in conjunction with one another wilst cornering hence accell decell diff, the squat effect is coming from your spring dampening or rear anti rolls or all this working together.

Ok, let's say you're entering a corner at 140mph, you have masses of downforce and you drop a gear. The decel torque drag tugs on the rear hubs they in turn pull on the radius arms to pull the car down level compressing the rear springs. If the car has ample front grip then the straightening effect from the locking diff is hardly felt and will also prevent the rear brakes locking over bumps. If the diff is more open in decel the radius arm will still want to provide antilift but the slip or the weakest grip rear tyre usually means the rear sits up more. The rear can sit up more as the speed drops, rear downforce is reduced, decel diff effect is reduced (reduced revs), the extra rear lift raises the under body diffuser freeing the rear axles slip angle and the cars roll coupling (wedge?) allows more weight onto the front wheels reducing mid corner understeer. Camber is important, but its there to work with the chassis, and not soley as a grip medium. This is only demonstrated on a car that has been setup to work its chassis. Just piling damping on and weak diff settings and the wrong ride hieght can not allow the rear axle to work as dynamic as it should(some prefere it different). Its part of the 'steering on throttle' that elliminates lift off understeer and excessive lift off oversteer. Once you find a decel sweet spot, you will usually be able to use heavier rear springs or softer damping, just be aware of the rear dynamic camber and front caster. I hope this helps.

When doing trails and testing you may have understeer to start with, this puts off many tuners who find it difficult to tell what to adjust next! All I can say is think about the direction the dampers adjustment is working in and how it can hold or press the wheels in operation and that the ARBs are a damping meduim in a diagonal sense. Depending on the chassis design, the ARBs can have a weak or strong effect over squat and dive, inside wheel lift, body roll and general stability.

Having a setup that uses stiff ARB on an axle is a good way to limit wheel camber change , it keeps it optimal, it's a trick used to tame a chassis's wayward dynamic geometry. A problem lowering can give.

Anti dive/lift and anti squat are chassis characteristics that are inherent from the wishbone inner bushings/pivot angle and placement. Without it, a high power cars rear suspension would be flattened and become none compliant under high engine loads.

DIXON76
10-06-2015, 13:31
Yes of course the Vits diff settings are having an indirect effect, your original sentence was worded funny as if diff alone was effecting the springs, thats the way read it any how. :)

MULTIVITZ
10-06-2015, 13:52
Yes of course the Vits diff settings are having an indirect effect, your original sentence was worded funny as if diff alone was effecting the springs, thats the way read it any how. :)

The diff has a marked effect on the springs when the car is driven on its limit. If the car is not planted and loose, then getting the diff lock timing from the preload adjustment can be a futile task. Some cars like to be setup with a hard locking diff! Theres no set way of doing things from car to car, I think thats something more people are realiising now as they're getting car handling the other sims had trouble delivering.

Pink_650S
10-06-2015, 13:54
Hey MULTIVITZ!
Can you help me with a Formula C tune for Catalunya National? :)

l would say l'm okay at figuring out setups, but would like to see what your suggestions were.

MULTIVITZ
10-06-2015, 19:36
I haven't drove a FC yet, I have some time this evening I'll have a look. You do know they say if a car drives well around Catalunya it should be strong around most of the GP tracks? I think it's because of the varied off camber corners.

I know Cat national, but the FC is quite crappy lol the front tyre is just on run away with its temperature!
I maybe some time?:rolleyes:
Yay! Just done a whole lap without the tyres over heating;)
And its chassis does works lol
We now got turn in oversteer!
It's going alright, can anyone tell me the terminal speed on the straight away and a good speed through the chicane please, its helpful as I don't want to do a full wing setup. It pointless continuing until I get a benchmark speed as giving maximum grip is ok for a cart track, but not here!? Thanks.

Well the tune I have now is giving 1:11 flat around the track with me driving like an old man lol. The worlds fastest Formular C is 1:09 around here at the moment.

Pink_650S
10-06-2015, 20:07
I haven't drove a FC yet, I have some time this evening I'll have a look. You do know they say if a car drives well around Catalunya it should be strong around most of the GP tracks?

I figured, because it has a nice variation of turns and a long straight :)

MULTIVITZ
10-06-2015, 23:22
Be happy about people picking holes in it, if they didn't nothing would be ever discussed or learnt, one thing that might help you is to have a more general controller set up for tuning otherwise other people that do have a basic controller set up, will not feel the car handling in the same fashion/way as you do.

Yeah, I'm more fussed about the amout of replies I would need to post. I want to learn off other tuners to, this game is great for creative tuning. My controller settings are in quite a few threads, including this one, on the first page? The steering ratio has a large effect on the setup and anyone getting down with the game ain't scared to adjust things. They can always PM me, sometimes it can take a day for me to reply, it depends.

Zippy_McFunshine
12-06-2015, 04:16
Attacking grammar mistakes is a clear sign of using cheap tactics when someone can't think of a solid defence.

Just incase you didn't get the memo, nit picking is far more irritating than grammical errors.

No it's not.

MULTIVITZ
12-06-2015, 17:50
'No it's not', is an empty statement in itself. You haven't stated your case, it looks like you're a fool who wants to waste peoples time. And maybe get replies like this one? Please edit your above statement to include any further comments. But I don't think anyone cares, I mean why should they?

The FC is a bit better. See my old post for more info.

hkraft300
12-06-2015, 18:09
Multi some of your technical explanations are buried in your wayward English in such a way I struggle to find an analogy...
I volunteer to edit your posts for you, for the good of this community haha
I'll be honest with you dude it's like you only get on the keyboard after the 3rd bottle of wine!
Enjoying the read purely because it's so hard to follow. Keep up the good work, your thread is quite comprehensive. I know it's far from complete - you have much more to cover yet. I'm looking forward to testing your setups and some nitpicking of technicalities. Biding my time to pick your brain and discuss certain ideas in further detail, that's all.
Please try not to be so condescending in future if you feel someone is misinformed. Perhaps include further explanation to clear the misunderstanding.
But don't let me tell you how to run your thread!
Back on topic - interesting choices on some of your FA setups. My FA setups have much stiffer springs and lower at least from memory, with no bump stops. Because I have a fear of heights xD

MULTIVITZ
12-06-2015, 18:30
I always do a recap for the slow ones eh? If people reply with tons of question marks and the like I'm gonna reply in kind. Over confidence thats what it is lol na oj
Yeah mate nit pick away nothings perfect, there's always teatree oil, or diatomasiuos earth lol

I've added a few bits to some previous posts if anyone wants to catch up from yesterday. Now we have 2 speed damping tuning should be awesome, shame it takes so long, very tiring lately. That FC took 5 hours and I woild consider it rough!
I nearly forgot, the time I've qoted in the FC is with a full fuel load.

Did anyone notice the ps4 update?

hkraft300
12-06-2015, 20:28
looking forward to the update. I'm away from my PS4 ATM and trolling this forum is helping me endure the withdrawals.
And Ye cheers for the acknowledgement of my post.
How very nonchalant of you. Arrogant prick :p

MULTIVITZ
12-06-2015, 20:37
Lol
I'm doing replies inbetween testing.
Sorry mate, the FA has a fine chassis, it can be setup however it feels best. I've found the controller modes may give levels of aggression to the steering, just doing a little testing and the front wheels stopped over heating! Sorry to hear you're getting withdrawals:D
To get used to tuning a car in various types of setups takes along time and a good memory. Alot of the guys on here keep tuning logs for thier cars. It makes alot of sense.
Technicalities can be exploited, only experience can determine how far is enough, but its fun when a chassis responds well.

Pink_650S
12-06-2015, 20:45
So Multivitz, wheres my Catalunya GP tune? :) For the Formula C.

tigerpaw11
13-06-2015, 05:46
Your dubai setup was really good, at least for quali/timetrail as you said. Put me on first page on the leaderboard..no assist of course...satisfying for an grey haired man.

I tried it in a 10 lap race as well, the tires lasted but lost 0.8 the last three laps.

The bugatti setup i liked as well but i had to handle the car/track with care as the curbs were leathal.

Keep them coming Multi, ignore the trolls.

Regards from a tuning noob

MULTIVITZ
13-06-2015, 10:29
Your dubai setup was really good, at least for quali/timetrail as you said. Put me on first page on the leaderboard..no assist of course...satisfying for an grey haired man.

I tried it in a 10 lap race as well, the tires lasted but lost 0.8 the last three laps.

The bugatti setup i liked as well but i had to handle the car/track with care as the curbs were leathal.

Keep them coming Multi, ignore the trolls.

Regards from a tuning noob

Thanks tigerpaw. Alot of the trolling comes from Forza and the rumours put about by ex club members. The fast guys wouldn't spend time learning the tuning, instead getting loaned tunes form fast buddies that took advantage of the poor game physics. I offered to teach them, but dicking over their mates takes priority? Teenage boys eh! Theres no telling 'em lol. Some wouldn't represent the club(they were asked many times to use club emblems, not a livery), so most of my shared tunes were wanting to be finished! They would show the tune to other players who couldn't tune, and so the rumours started. Why would i give a tune to a club member whos not going to spend time getting it right with me? I'm still talking to some of them.
Alot of the trolling comes from thier concern for the size of my head, it's filled up well, but there's always room for more lol.
Trolling is really a mental illness, its psychopathic tendances fueled by jealousy in an over emphasised competitive environment. Its labeled as boredom or entertainment, by the trolls, this helps them intergrate. If you're heard of Thomas Sheridan you'd know what I'm saying.

I've found a too lower speed sensitivity can cause the front tyres to burn on some setups on some cars!
If you bottom a car on a too high kerb it is bad, the 240 litre fuel tank is heavy and the strong springs needed may bounce the tyres when kerbing at some angles. Knowing the track only comes from testing what you're running. Regards-Mark.

FA RACING 01
13-06-2015, 11:39
Don't let them fire you up mate. You help us polishing our tunes, we help you polishing your grammar presentation. WIN WIN. ;)

Pink_650S
13-06-2015, 12:14
Don't let them fire you up mate. You help us polishing our tunes, we help you polishing your grammar presentation. WIN WIN. ;)

Agreed! :)
MULTIVITZ is now kind of our forum mechanic :D

DIXON76
13-06-2015, 19:11
Thanks tigerpaw. Alot of the trolling comes from Forza and the rumours put about by ex club members. The fast guys wouldn't spend time learning the tuning, instead getting loaned tunes form fast buddies that took advantage of the poor game physics. I offered to teach them, but dicking over their mates takes priority? Teenage boys eh! Theres no telling 'em lol. Some wouldn't represent the club, so some of my tunes were wanting to be finished! I'm still talking to some of them.
Alot of the trolling comes from thier concern for the size of my head, it's filled up well, but there's always room for more lol.
.So could you explain who your talking about?, What team ??? i was in the same team as you at some point although i never once spoke to you, i heard about you(not bad)/not your tuning through the grapevine! I've stayed from your thread just to leave you to it, so who's trolling you ??

DIXON76
13-06-2015, 19:19
The diff has a marked effect on the springs when the car is driven on its limit..Easily solved if you can tune.

MULTIVITZ
13-06-2015, 23:35
I'll chat about axle control soon. Its very logical and with twin speed dampers it becomes very adjustable. Tying the front and rear axles together with the roll coupling can be difficult to see, but ride hight and travel on the telemetry can help guide decision making. You can tune Dixon, you have some of the best tuned cars in Forza. Why are you in here, you must be bored? Can't you help some other members with thier cars? I haven't seen daveyskills much on pC, he's a great tuner/driver whats he been doing?

hkraft300
14-06-2015, 06:50
Easily solved if you can tune.

cool story bro

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 11:10
Multivits, i asked you a question, whats with the attitude and why did Daveyskills come into this ? WTF

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 11:16
Why are you being a drama queen all of a sudden? Whos got an attitude? Who trolling who? Find out next week in 'The Life of a Troll'.lol
I didn't see any bad words, did you? Not reading between the lines again...are ya?
I thought we were here to chat about tuning and sharing ideas? Not team politics of old. It's water under the bridge ain't it? But I could be speaking to myself again lol.
Don't worry about it, I ain't.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 11:23
cool story bro Very cool story pal,you would listen if i told it to ya. i would set up my own tuning thread so Multivits and the likes could come in steal tune's and pass them off as is own, but i'm not gonna bother. Multivits likes making tuning sound more complicated than what it really is, your not learning anything in here your being told how difficult tuning is with no real solutions it wouldn't suprise me if people were put off by this thread and the way its written, its the easiest thing to make car feel good bro but if its still a second of first its really no good isit ??

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 11:24
Why are you being a drama queen all of a sudden? Whos got an attitude? Who trolling who? Find out next week in the life of a troll lol
I didn't see any bad words did you? Not reading between the lines again...are ya?
I thought we were here to chat about tuning and sharing ideas? Not team politics of old.UR A IDIOT! BYE

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 11:40
Oh and err, Daveys working 60hpw i've heard but as still managed to get numerous no 1s with the touring car set i gave them.

Icezan12345
14-06-2015, 12:07
Can you please make a tune on the Audi R18 TDI?

hkraft300
14-06-2015, 12:20
Not asking you to share setups Dixon. A why and how would be nice, that's all.
Tuning in a game is easy - click some sliders do some laps and teleport to the pits.
Tuning in real life has consequences beyond one's forum rep and ego.

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 12:28
Not asking you to share setups Dixon. A why and how would be nice, that's all.
Tuning in a game is easy - click some sliders do some laps and teleport to the pits.
Tuning in real life has consequences beyond one's forum rep and ego.

Too true.
I think thats some good reasons playing this game is such a good outlet for some. Having an idea in the workings of a chassis can make tuning even easier.
Don't dixon share? Why does he think him sharing is others stealing? And using capital letters?
I don't hear him saying much about tuning, I though this thread was in the 'garage car setup talk' part of this forum!

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 13:00
Can you please make a tune on the Audi R18 TDI?

It would be a bit boring wouldn't it. That cars got too much vorsprung durch technik. Maybe soon.

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 13:07
It would be a bit boring wouldn't it. That cars got too much vorsprung durch technik. Maybe soon.

Obviously not quite enough Vorsprung to beat Porsche ;)

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 13:16
Very cool story pal,you would listen if i told it to ya. i would set up my own tuning thread so Multivits and the likes could come in steal tune's and pass them off as is own, but i'm not gonna bother. Multivits likes making tuning sound more complicated than what it really is, your not learning anything in here your being told how difficult tuning is with no real solutions it wouldn't suprise me if people were put off by this thread and the way its written, its the easiest thing to make car feel good bro but if its still a second of first its really no good isit ??

I used to feel the same on Forza, I didn't start this thread, have you seen the first page of it?? You can't be bothered to start your own thread because you're trying to tell people that I'm a thief, and you do such excellent tunes that get to number one on the leaderboards and that is all that matters to you?

When a member gives me a pm I do my best to provide them with real solutions, or have you not been reading other posts in this thread?
I'm really not bothered about putting people off as you would like to say, you'll find some pervious post cover this in detail. Re: post #52
Hope you're not being put off:rolleyes:
AN IDIOT, not A IDIOT.....grammar eh?

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 14:19
UR A IDIOT! BYE

Eeeeer............................no.

You're still posting here? Lol
Have a look at the FC tune, if your pride will allow, and give us your improvements.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 15:48
Eeeeer............................no.

You're still posting here? Lol
Have a look at the FC tune, if your pride will allow, and give us your improvements.Errr what?? Give tuning advise to you and your two followers ??? Errr don't think so buddy, i'll start my own thread if i want to do that!

@hkraft, you do relise that project cars is game,no??? This is a gaming forum no ???

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 15:55
So competetive? We know it's a game numb nuts. Some of us like to talk about car tuning, there is a general discussion area you know? Now you are defo looking like a troll. Oh I remember you now! Lol
You like to get sweaty doing hot laps lol or am I thinking of someone else?

Your above reply doesn't redress my points in quote. It seems like you have an agenda. I mean look at all your post here, then compare them to others else where?
Its only an issue if you make it one?
No ones stopping you starting your own thread. I wish you'd do something!

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 16:09
Multivits you post as if you know me lol,you talk utter garbage as others have said in this very thread, you've defo got a retardation in your brain lad.

hkraft300
14-06-2015, 16:09
Yes. PCars is a game, and this is a game forum.
It's why I share my setups and invite others to use it, tweak it, criticise it, discuss it so that we help each other improve.
Not too fussed about anyone "stealing" my setups, you know?
Because I like to learn, more so when it involves anything automotive. Hence my request for further explanation.
I won't steal your information and claim it for myself I promise.
Don't take it too personally, Ye?
how about you stop the personal insults, stay relevant to the thread and retain some dignity? If you disagree, present your case.

Ps if you think I'm a multivitz "follower" have a flick through this thread you'll see I've told him the same thing - this is a tuning thread in the garage section. Cut the bullshit and stay on point.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 16:16
What would you like to know hkraft ?

hkraft300
14-06-2015, 16:37
What would you like to know hkraft ?

In a previous post I asked to explain yourself further.
You're calling out multi claiming he's talking garbage - explain why with regards to tuning.
This forum section is about car setup - lets leave the personal attacks to social media Ye?

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 16:44
I was saying he talks garbage in relation to post #139 as for the personal insults go back and read all my posts apart from post #140,pls read his responces as well. as for tuning he's overcomplicating near nuff everything, eg anecdote's* with no solutions.

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 16:50
And you're so helpful in this thread lol
Talk about dig yourself your own hole lol haven't you started your own thread yet.
The only one insulting here is you! I'm just making observations?
Dixon's post count has gone up today.

FA RACING 01
14-06-2015, 16:52
For the record, I'm a noob at tuning and appreciate MULTIVITZ's tunes and so does many others. How good it is I dont care - gave me top 20 times and thats more than good enough for me. AND I'm not stealing it or taking his credit - its on record Im using his and other tunes on this forum. Yes his way of speaking sucks, but I learned by now how to read it.Thanks MULTIVITZ, much appreciated.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 17:06
And you're so helpful in this thread lol
Talk about dig yourself your own hole lol haven't you started your own thread yet.
The only one insulting here is you! I'm just making observations?Observations from where ?? Explain or go on to talk utter crap like you have done on numerous occasions, its up to you.

Roger Prynne
14-06-2015, 17:23
Guys enough now please just agree to disagree... it's getting boring as usual.

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 18:40
Well out of 450 players on the leaderboard I'm in 111th place around Catalunya Nataional in Formula A. I'm way off the pace, but I'm not trying hard at all. Thats the next track the Rig is going around in the series and as a follow up to the Formula C tune. It's going to showcase various things in the setup screen.

VERBAL KINT
14-06-2015, 20:43
Vitz you're laughable m8, you fancy yourself as some sort of master tuner throughout all racing games, well these games r different, and reqiure different tuning techniques, as well as having their own 'quirks' for making cars quick. I'm afraid the 'REAL' world tuning advive u copied and pasted onto this thread generally doesn't apply. For me, personally, i have to drive a car for a while to get used to it before i can even contemplate tuning it. That's y the quick guys have an advantage, with their abilty 2 get up 2 speed promptly, and run consistent laps. A must if you're to find out whether a tune is quick enough. It is 4 these reasons m8, i find it hard to fathom y you recognise urself as the 'Holy Grail' of tuning because i've raced against you on a couple of the 4za's. You spent most of you're time in the gravel trap. Was it the car? Or was it the driver? Later

VERBAL KINT
14-06-2015, 20:46
Vitz you're laughable m8, you fancy yourself as some sort of master tuner throughout all racing games, well these games r different, and reqiure different tuning techniques, as well as having their own 'quirks' for making cars quick. I'm afraid the 'REAL' world tuning advice u copied and pasted onto this thread generally doesn't apply. For me, personally, i have to drive a car for a while to get used to it before i can even contemplate tuning it. That's y the quick guys have an advantage, with their abilty 2 get up 2 speed promptly, and run consistent laps. A must if you're to find out whether a tune is quick enough. It is 4 these reasons m8, i find it hard to fathom y you recognise urself as the 'Holy Grail' of tuning because i've raced against you on a couple of the 4za's. You spent most of you're time in the gravel trap. Was it the car? Or was it the driver? Later

FMS TopSecret
14-06-2015, 20:58
This is great Banter

There is nothing like old school Forza racers exchanging those handbags full of make-up and other fake stuff. I think everyone should give up with their points made.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 21:02
:cool: i'm agreeing TS

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 21:09
Vitz you're laughable m8, you fancy yourself as some sort of master tuner throughout all racing games, well these games r different, and reqiure different tuning techniques, as well as having their own 'quirks' for making cars quick. I'm afraid the 'REAL' world tuning advive u copied and pasted onto this thread generally doesn't apply. For me, personally, i have to drive a car for a while to get used to it before i can even contemplate tuning it. That's y the quick guys have an advantage, with their abilty 2 get up 2 speed promptly, and run consistent laps. A must if you're to find out whether a tune is quick enough. It is 4 these reasons m8, i find it hard to fathom y you recognise urself as the 'Holy Grail' of tuning because i've raced against you on a couple of the 4za's. You spent most of you're time in the gravel trap. Was it the car? Or was it the driver? Later

No need to be mean, person with 1 post.
He just likes to help out other people, and talk about different setups, obviously thats his thing.
Totally unnecessary to attack him like that.

FMS TopSecret
14-06-2015, 21:16
No need to be mean, person with 1 post.
He just likes to help out other people, and talk about different setups, obviously thats his thing.
Totally unnecessary to attack him like that.

yes they shouldn't be mean, but Multi never had the best reputation on Xbox and from what i remember he used a Tuning calculator on FM4 if im correct

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 21:25
yes they shouldn't be mean, but Multi never had the best reputation on Xbox and from what i remember he used a Tuning calculator on FM4 if im correct

So?
Maybe he wants to change with Project Cars and figure out his own tunes by communicating with others.
No need to bring past Xbox stories into present or this forum imo.

FMS TopSecret
14-06-2015, 21:28
True, but they have every right to express themselves. we don't really know what they went through personally so you should let them solve there own problems

hkraft300
14-06-2015, 21:45
^+1
Wow
Well done gents
Don't see any of you being helpful to those of us less capable of driving or tuning. So what are you contributing?
A few guys have achieved positive results from multi's setups and tuning info. even if it was just one person, that's one more than you've helped.
So step up or f* off and stop wasting everyone's time with personal attacks.

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 21:46
Sure, solve personal problems via PM.
If someone comes here, signs up only to insult him in his tuning thread, then l will interfere.

DIXON76
14-06-2015, 21:54
@Pink & hkraft
Post #122 i asked Vits a question,what he has still not answered,before this post i was trying to be helpfull.Post #124 Vits responds with a aggresive post for still an unknown reason.

To be clear, i have been in the same team as him but have never spoken or raced with him. Then he goes on claiming that he knows me! Thats my last post on this matter.

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 22:11
So he brings a couple of nice friends along to join in, because he was having trouble insulting me.lol
Trouble is, we will never see his fantastic tunes and how magic they are to drive, I wonder why?
In answer to 'the driver or the car', very funny I thought it was the game and the other players lol
Still if you want to drive around and get use to a car with a default setup thats up to you boy. He says 'later', but he'll be back? Lol
Priceless.

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 22:18
After our little break we're back. Some of the lads had to go home, one had a limp and the others had nose bleeds, must be catchin'. I don't think they knew how to look after one an' other.
The Rigs tune is for,

Catalunya National

It's been setup to show the finer points of the tuning screens hidden fine adjustments. When putting in the new setup have a look at the sliders values, sometimes the slider will move without the value changing. I've kept the setup as even as I could, but allowed values to lean towards driverbility. Further refinement of the ride and performance can be made using the give and take style with the damping. The dampers need to work with the tyres for optimum grip, so tyre pressures will need tweaking as required. The brakes also. Remember the ARBs have an effect on damping, as does a heavy aero effect.
207778

Brake pressure 90%, balance 60%, duct 4%???
Weight balance 53.5%?
Steering ratio 24.4:1?
Check the front toe, the centre has centre spot adjustment for feel.
Check the rear toe, its toeing out like the FC tune, but its on its limit for a low setup. Slider to the left!
Front ride hight is slamed.
The rear is 43mm and is the tunes static wedge(13mm) it also has fine adjustments?
The wedge has also been copied to the bumpstops.
99% accel
49% decel
200Nm preload
1% viscous coupling
Rad 50%
6.80 final drive
3.15
2.20
1.68
1.42
1.25
1.14
1.03
37L fuel
0 Brake mapping?
Full power.

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 22:39
Thanks Multi, is this for the GP track?
Will try immediately :)

Pink_650S
14-06-2015, 22:52
Nice setup! :)

MULTIVITZ
14-06-2015, 23:54
Word on the streets is, there's going to be a tuning calculator!
I've not had anything to do with this one, but the chances of it working good are high with this game.
You'll still have to tune stuff, a machine can't tune for ya!

Right, who's been paying attention? Diligence is a requirement to be a good tuner. When setting the car, especially one you don't know, keep an eye out for the hidden adjustments. You'll notice the difference a click can make, especially if your adjustments are working together.

The Rigs current tune is in the middle of the road, so to speak. And, no, it's not like my politics.
It's a game bla bla bla, how does that effect you?
You've seen what it's done to them boys earlier, don't let it happen to you!

Usually the middle of the adjustment slider is not too hard, and not too soft. If the front and rear values don't match when the sliders are next to each other, then the axles will have a different character. It maybe the compression ratio against the spring, roll coupling angle, aero balance, intrinsic damping balance for the chassis, if you spot one, let me know. There's alot about at the moment!
On some cars there's additional max settings on some adjustments, sometimes a half value. Use them to get the balance of the setup in your favour, (but only when the rest of the adjustments support it, otherwise you'll be sliding all over the place!)
The fine adjustments are found in all sorts of places, not just near the end. For example: The Rigs rear camber has one, the trim is set to the higher camber value, any extra body roll or reduction in rear axle camber will get the rear washing out. Try it and you'll be washing your pants out after!

Now thats been cleared up, I think you might be ready to start a little bit of tuning?
Setting up is not really tuning, tuning is getting the car in tune, getting the parts to sing off the same song sheet. NO, there's no bible, why did you bring religion into it?
There are systems that have been developed to roughly find an ideal setup, but like in all engineering, it will still need testing to see if it works.
Freedom is a very valuable quality in most endeavours, most of all in tuning a chassis.
Next time we'll be looking at mechanical grip. I want to find a really nasty track, something to knock your fillings out. Then we'll see about turning the Rig into a CitroŽn, and why that could be slower!


Rodney, get the kettle on then find those old CitroŽn ads on Utube. Please with 2 sugars, thankin' you.

FMS TopSecret
15-06-2015, 00:18
So he brings a couple of nice friends along to join in, because he was having trouble insulting me.lol
Trouble is, we will never see his fantastic tunes and how magic they are to drive, I wonder why?
In answer to 'the driver or the car', very funny I thought it was the game and the other players lol
Still if you want to drive around and get use to a car with a default setup thats up to you boy. He says 'later', but he'll be back? Lol
Priceless.

why you dont see his tunes because at this stage of the game we have nothing special, we just drive stock or do aero adjustments because default setups are good and on most tracks for a general setup. even back on fm4 bob gave his tunes away that people took #1's in and i did the same on my store. we tune cars for people looking to perfect a lap where as you are making tunes for people wanting to improve a lap because our tunes test a person and are only drive able to those who have the skill so we dont see a point posting a tune that benefits like 50 really fast people who can drive it. people dont like most of my tunes because of my driving style, i like them my way and its harder for the average or casual racing driver to use because of the mass of oversteer i like but i make it look like a stable car. yes i do and have posted tunes on forums that anyone can drive because im nice and understand tuning. but for bob he doesn't have to post his tunes, he is just like anyone else who can tune, he had to learn and figure things and so he has every right to hide and keep secret tunes or tricks because anyone can learn to tune but those people who say they can't tune just aren't trying hard enough and give up to easily then rely on others. i was at that point so anyone can also be at my point now.

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 00:32
If you don't feel like sharing your setup that's entirely up to you.
If you want to degrade someone for their tuning ability on their thread, explain what you don't agree with.
For example, if I don't agree with the rear toe in of -0.3 I will say "that rear toe figure may be good for wheel drivers but not good for controller drivers because the oversteer is hard to catch"
See? no setup sharing involved!
If it's too hard for you to state your argument relevant to car setup, like I said to Dixon and even multivitz himself on occasion, please just stop.

Icezan12345
15-06-2015, 01:17
Ok, thanks though. I have been having a little trouble using it. For example to much understeer.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 03:26
Excuses, excuses? Ok, for me, it's all about the tuning. And a' close to over steer setup' is the fastest way, unless alot of direction changes are needed! Getting stance/wedge, direction change, and dynamic ride height is about springs. The dampers control the car against the road. Wheel geometry is set and adjusted to work the tyres within THEIR chosen limits to the chassis design limits.
Something special, something that allows you to drive around a track faster than before and is repeatable?
I got enough skill to make your grandmother sing.
There's no wrong or right in creative chassis tuning, thats not worth arguing about.
It's the methods that are used to massage the settings is where it's at.
Maybe he should read up on the Trivium, the boy might decide arguings immature?
You know why I'm doing this thread, it's not a tune shop so there's no competition here.
For the record, very few people have played with my special ones, I made dam sure none of my Forza ones got out.
Even the tune files on the storefront could get jailbroken!
The fastest way around a track, ain't the line of least resistance, it's a good setup and tune for yourself. Then you got to drive it.
I've got loads in store for everyone, and NO, none of it is(maybe some of the rarer words!) Copied, not a single sentence from any book or online source.
So please, if anyone is NOT having fun, ask someone.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 03:50
True, but they have every right to express themselves. we don't really know what they went through personally so you should let them solve there own problems

None of them have been through anything of my making, they are just that way.
So weak they have to try and put others down to make themselves feel better?
They have every right to be happy, but somethings stopping that, diet? Because it ain't me, I wouldn't mislead anyone intentionally.

VERBAL KINT
15-06-2015, 05:34
^+1
Wow
Well done gents
Don't see any of you being helpful to those of us less capable of driving or tuning. So what are you contributing?
A few guys have achieved positive results from multi's setups and tuning info. even if it was just one person, that's one more than you've helped.
So step up or f* off and stop wasting everyone's time with personal attacks.

It's like a blind guy throwing darts at a board m8, the law of averages say if he throws enough darts he'll hit the bullseye at some point.:p

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 06:07
why you dont see his tunes because at this stage of the game we have nothing special, we just drive stock or do aero adjustments because default setups are good and on most tracks for a general setup. even back on fm4 bob gave his tunes away that people took #1's in and i did the same on my store. we tune cars for people looking to perfect a lap where as you are making tunes for people wanting to improve a lap because our tunes test a person and are only drive able to those who have the skill so we dont see a point posting a tune that benefits like 50 really fast people who can drive it. people dont like most of my tunes because of my driving style, i like them my way and its harder for the average or casual racing driver to use because of the mass of oversteer i like but i make it look like a stable car. yes i do and have posted tunes on forums that anyone can drive because im nice and understand tuning. but for bob he doesn't have to post his tunes, he is just like anyone else who can tune, he had to learn and figure things and so he has every right to hide and keep secret tunes or tricks because anyone can learn to tune but those people who say they can't tune just aren't trying hard enough and give up to easily then rely on others. i was at that point so anyone can also be at my point now.To be fair TS i've got a couple of beast tune what have defo no been driven to there full potential,but whats the point in handing them out at this stage when like you say, i'm happy to help tho , mediocre guys like myself can get top 10 times with little to no effort or tune.

@Vits for hottlapping,do you close the radiator and brake ducts, if you don't i would recommend that you do.

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 07:40
It's like a blind guy throwing darts at a board m8, the law of averages say if he throws enough darts he'll hit the bullseye at some point.:p

Yes of course!
i am shamelessly doing the same! Thrown my setups out there for all, fast or not.
A few guys have had positive results and, because I'm not the fastest around, I like the feedback to see where my setups stand.
My point is, at least we're throwing the darts!
Spray and pray, my friend! Lol

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 07:45
@Vits for hottlapping,do you close the radiator and brake ducts, if you don't i would recommend that you do.

Fuel wear is off, not sure about tire wear or mechanical faults
So ye shut the radiator - engine won't blow anyway!
I use the brake ducts to help regulate front tire temps so I can't always shut them. Some tracks my fronts go cold within 5 laps (even when I'm pushing) so I shut the ducts and some tracks my fronts go hot, so open ducts.

RobMUFC1987
15-06-2015, 08:09
To be fair TS i've got a couple of beast tune what have defo no been driven to there full potential,but whats the point in handing them out at this stage when like you say, i'm happy to help tho , mediocre guys like myself can get top 10 times with little to no effort or tune.

@Vits for hottlapping,do you close the radiator and brake ducts, if you don't i would recommend that you do.

I'm not a tuner by any stretch, but I'm fast. I like the people who throw out tunes, because even if they're bad, I learn quicker what some things do than if I sat in practice adjusting things 1 at a time.

I understand why people won't share their magic set ups, but it would help if they give tips on things or gave out a base set up to help people learn

donpost
15-06-2015, 09:40
If you want to learn something from this thread, compare Multi's Silverstone setup to the one by Jack van Hees in his thread....

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 09:44
And the Monaco tune? Why not compare all the training tunes! lmfao
Don't knock Jack he's doing a cracking job. What is this you show me yours and I'll show you mine? Lol
Theres quite a few of my tunes on this site. Why? Read the 'atari tuning grind' thread and it may learn you something!
Search 'atari' then look for 'same gind for money grind for tunes' its a closed thread!

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 09:46
I can't drive Jack's :) even though he very clearly can! unless the settings not shown make all the difference? but then not tried the one on here either.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 09:54
Rob like you, i am fast (not the fastest but fast) and i can tune,so is verbal kint so is fms TS, did i not offer a little bit of advise in the last post what you quoted ??

If you ask mate, i will try to answer to the best of my ability, and your given a base set up with every car.

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 09:57
Rob like you, i am fast (not the fastest but fast) and i can tune,so is verbal kint so is fms TS, did i not offer a little bit of advise in the last post what you quoted ??

If you ask mate, i will try to answer to the best of my ability, and your given a base set up with every car.

Bob Dixon 76?

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 09:58
Yes , why??? i'm scared!!!!

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 10:03
Yes , why??? i'm scared!!!!

Well, been looking for you for years, my ex girlfriend.................................







Lol, no, just a simple google search to see who has credibilty:) You score well, lol.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 10:09
Wow, i just done a search, apparently i'm a brickyard legend lol
:D

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 10:11
Wow, i just done a search, apparently i'm a brickyard legend lol
:D

Yep, even 3rd parties recommending your tunes, maybe I'll actually be able to drive one, I'm pretty much driving stock with a few downforce and gearing changes :)

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 10:17
Yep, even 3rd parties recommending your tunes, maybe I'll actually be able to drive one, I'm pretty much driving stock with a few downforce and gearing changes :)What cars do you like/drive in game ?

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 10:20
What cars do you like/drive in game ?

If I'm honest, so far, I've only driven the Formula A and the Oreca Nissan, and also just round a handful of tracks, Monza, Spa, Le Mans. So much to explore and do just with those, don't think I'll ever fully use the game. I find the road cars a liuttle unrealistic in their handling, so below expectations, as I've driven some IRL, and the race cars exceed expectations, so where I get most fun.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 10:21
Rob like you, i am fast (not the fastest but fast) and i can tune,so is verbal kint so is fms TS, did i not offer a little bit of advise in the last post what you quoted ??

If you ask mate, i will try to answer to the best of my ability, and your given a base set up with every car.

Truth is mate it's been a month and no ones seen anything. Yeah you're fast with a controller. You think you know me from Forza because you 've been friends with one of my ex club mates? Your just a mouthy prat who knows how to kiss the arses. A mouthy prat that thinks he can tune from playing forza, but in reality you've never left your bedroom. That my impession of ya. If you had had half a decent bone in ya, you wouldn't behave like you do. You're a prize one, now do one.

Just do the maths, one car tuned for one track in one month. Now thats special lol
Go read the atari- same grind for money as grind for tunes- thread.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 10:24
If I'm honest, so far, I've only driven the Formula A and the Oreca Nissan, and also just round a handful of tracks, Monza, Spa, Le Mans. So much to explore and do just with those, don't think I'll ever fully use the game. I find the road cars a liuttle unrealistic in their handling, so below expectations, as I've driven some IRL, and the race cars exceed expectations, so where I get most fun.I'll pm you a top secret tune in the next couple of weeks :)

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 10:28
I'll pm you a top secret tune in the next couple of weeks :)

Thank you:) I'll definitely give it a try. Me and oversteer aren't good companions, lol.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 10:34
Weeks, I'm not curious to be honest. Please read that atari grind thread, all will become clear, and then maybe everyone can remove thier chips off their shoulders? I ain't going to make a missile tune because it would spoil the hot lappers fun, or make a racing league less challenging. Read that grind for money thread?
Google my tag, its in there first group of links!

I have been studying nutrition for over thirty years, theres few vitamins I'd buy off the high street after some recent studies that were released last year.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 10:40
I say weeks vits because i might not play the game until the weekend, then again i might play it tonight but then again E3s on, so me saying a couple of week is somthing i can defenatly deliver upon, thats all pal.

I also could spend two whole weeks building an absolute monster, who knows mate ???

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 10:46
Indeed. E3, this weekend eh? Have you read that grind thread??

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 10:52
Indeed. E3, this weekend eh? Have you read that grind thread??

Is this a true thread pls link, E3 starts today mate

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 11:02
Weeks, I'm not curious to be honest. Please read that atari grind thread, all will become clear, and then maybe everyone can remove thier chips off their shoulders? I ain't going to make a missile tune because it would spoil the hot lappers fun, or make a racing league less challenging. Read that grind for money thread?
Google my tag, its in there first group of links!

Googling your tag gets this, so unless I want to buy some ebay vitamins..... :) https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=multivitz

Roger Prynne
15-06-2015, 11:08
Is this a true thread pls link, E3 starts today mate

I think he means this one...lol

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26856-Grind-for-money-Same-as-Grind-for-tuning&highlight=tuning+grind

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 11:10
I think he means this one...lol

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26856-Grind-for-money-Same-as-Grind-for-tuning&highlight=tuning+grind

So do I , but not sure why. Starts off OK, then degenerates into the normal slanging match:) Not really anything to learn from it, other than peoples views differ dramatically.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 11:18
Na, you got to include the 69 lol

Post #79 of the grind thread is a good one, but you'd have to see it from my perspective and watch the videos (they're very good).

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 11:26
So do I , but not sure why. Starts off OK, then degenerates into the normal slanging match:) Not really anything to learn from it, other than peoples views differ dramatically.

Really? You haven't read it then?
The top top tuner thats here says it takes a long time for him to get the tune right?
Can anyone do maths here?
1 car times #tracks times #days, if it takes a month great. If no one shares, great, if no one can setup, not so great? Plenty can tune. How many people have the game?
Then you get the tools who say I'm being dramatic. Ok get me a setup for "this car.....", good luck boys. Theres a ton of people with thier head up thier own, but there is some WMD members that are going to spice things up soon. I can't say anymore.

What happend to his brother Steve? (Guess they run out of money somewhere!?)

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 11:55
Na, you got to include the 69 lol

Post #79 of the grind thread is a good one, but you'd have to see it from my perspective and watch the videos (they're very good).Holland and Barret ???

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 12:01
Jesus multi
Cut the shit and get back on point
You're doing a good thing helping people learn. At least some of us see your good intention. Let's get back to doing your thing before this thread gets shut.
Talk is cheap
Don't see the trolls helping people understand the relationship between 2 components on a car.

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 12:18
Really? You haven't read it then?
The top top tuner thats here says it takes a long time for him to get the tune right?
Can anyone do maths here?
1 car times #tracks times #days, if it takes a month great. If no one shares, great, if no one can setup, not so great? Plenty can tune. How many people have the game?
Then you get the tools who say I'm being dramatic. Ok get me a setup for "this car.....", good luck boys. Theres a ton of people with thier head up thier own, but there is some WMD members that are going to spice things up soon. I can't say anymore.

What happend to his brother Steve? (Guess they run out of money somewhere!?)

I read as much as I could stand, but as ever I literally don't have a clue what you're talking about:) it's like a conversation with my 96 year old nan, lol.

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 12:22
it's like a conversation with my 96 year old nan, lol.

^+1
So true!

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 12:22
it's like a conversation with my 96 year old nan, lol.

^+1
So true!

Real_Reece
15-06-2015, 13:06
Hello everyone have been having a read through the thread and was wondering if I could ask for a hand with the ginetta gt3? Let me know if that alright and I'll give you some details. Thanks

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 13:13
Hello everyone have been having a read through the thread and was wondering if I could ask for a hand with the ginetta gt3? Let me know if that alright and I'll give you some details. Thanks

I love that car. Fire away.
I don't mind a pm or two.

Roger Prynne
15-06-2015, 13:31
Make it public so we can all see... after all that's what this thread is supposed to be about.
It's no good to all the other members if it's hidden in PM's.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 13:44
My name ain't dixon lol
With all the prats butting in I thought it was easier to communicate. I mean who cares about the leaderboards, most of them are going to be deleted when the off track penalty system gets updated! So a fast tune won't help there in the immediate future. Only saying.
Has that new web site filled up with tunes yet? It will be reopened soon.

Learning a chassis takes me 5-15 hours on this game, doing it my way through doing respectable tunes in many different setup arrangements. I don't bother saving them as I'm competent enough to retune at anytime. After I've learned the chassis, and memorised its traits, I put together a setup and tune it. That can take 3-5 hours, then it would need testing after that, not to see if it was fast, but to check for hidden surpises you wouldn't want poping up.
I not going to pump out tunes like some other members are doing(nothing wrong with that imo) as most people who play these type of games know things improve over time and tunes become outdated.
So I'm publishing setups that I think will help anyone get around the track and be a different starting point from the default tunes.
My training Rig is just that, a rigged car to train in.
I like to race against other people, and try to out manuvour them, not race in a nervous hotlap setup then moan that everyones in my way and cry because the car slid off when someone nudged me.

TrevorAustin
15-06-2015, 13:46
My name ain't dixon lol
With all the prats butting in I thought it was easier to communicate. I mean who cares about the leaderboards, most of them are going to be deleted when the off track penalty system gets updated! So a fast tune won't help there in the immediate future. Only saying.

Lol, lucky you've never butted in or derailed anybodies threads in the past, how very rude:) I do hope they reset the leaderboards though, some of the times are frankly ridiculous. 9 seconds for a lap record and it's stood for weeks!

Real_Reece
15-06-2015, 13:49
Well spent a couple of hours trying to make a tune for catalunya gp circuit, default problems were lock ups (easy fix) and well yeah the fact that she's a bit ass happy, on the positive side I'd say the most agile gt3 & brakes when they stop locking and mid speed corner/high speed corner exits seemed to be right up there. So was playing round a bit managed to make the mid to exit corner oversteer reasonable but caused mid corner oversteer on the two long right handers (u-shaped) which annoyed me so thought I'd ask for a hand. Basically need racing tune as opposed to something to run hot laps in. Keep the turn in as sharp as possible and the oversteer to a min. Thanks in advance

Reece

Roger Prynne
15-06-2015, 13:51
My name ain't dixon lol
With all the prats butting in I thought it was easier to communicate. I mean who cares about the leaderboards, most of them are going to be deleted when the off track penalty system gets updated! So a fast tune won't help there in the immediate future. Only saying.
Has that new web site filled up with tunes yet?
It's got nothing to do with leaderboards... people just want information about how to set up a car is all.


With all the prats butting in I thought it was easier to communicate
That's like the 'pot calling the kettle black', don't you think.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 14:21
This is exactly the reason i get mad with you Vits, you started on me because i challenged you. You say my name as if you know me,then you claim you don't know me,then you do,then you don't again Wtf is up with you.

Matter of fact if i wanted discuss my tune's in public i would start my own thread, and then let people discuss whatever they like (public thread on public forum - tuning discussion)

Your thread, your tune's to be discussed, debated by the public.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 16:34
Bla bla bla. You make your self mad. I'm trying to help here, and you haven't said anything constructive. You have the front to insult me after you no nothing about me, you prejudge me and condescend my wotk here based on someone elses words. I think you're way over your head mate. I'm very generous with my time and don't claim to be the best at anything. Sounds like you're in a dream world, a world of hate and angsiaty, because thats all whats comming out your trap.
And the thread wasn't started by me, I have lots to say on the subject and there weren't room in others threads so here I am. Why would I worry about explaining things like a diff to people, they should know, you don't appreciate its finer points. Its silly little secretive fact hording attitudes thats made this sport such a black art. I know you can tune on Forza, but the driverbility was always your weak point. Improvement is made through focusing on ones weak points. I can't comment on any of your tunes because I would often turn down peoples offers of gifting it to me, but of the ones I have tried they were flat tyred blamongues. If that gets people to a number 1, then good on ya.
Oh did I start on you ahh, you keep comming back and looking silly, it's not my fault. We know you can't help it?
It's a community, you're just being a blud clud if you ain't contributing?
Regards-Mark.

If anyone has a problem understanding dry humour, please don't reply to any of my posts. Thanks.

hkraft300
15-06-2015, 17:02
If anyone has a problem understanding dry humour, please don't reply to any of my posts. Thanks.

Bottle or 3 of some cheap red wine ought to hydrate it well :p

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 18:18
Bla bla bla. I make myself mad. I'm trying to help here, and i haven't said anything constructive. I have the front to insult you after i no nothing about you, you prejudge me and condescend my wotk here based on someone elses words. I in way over my head mate. I'm very generous with my time and don't claim to be the best at anything. Sounds like i'm in a dream world, a world of hate and angsiaty, because thats all whats comming out of my trap.
And the thread wasn't started by me, I have lots to say on the subject and there weren't room in others threads so here I am. Why would I worry about explaining things like a diff to people, they should know, you don't appreciate its finer points. Its silly little secretive fact hording attitudes thats made this sport such a black art. I know you can tune on Forza, but the driverbility was always my weak point. Improvement is made through focusing on ones weak points. I can't comment on any of your tunes because I would often turn down peoples offers of gifting it to me, but of the ones I have tuned they were flat tyred blamongues. .
It's a community, i'm just being a idiot if i ain't contributing?
Regards-Mark.

If anyone has a problem understanding dry humour, please don't reply to any of my posts. Thanks.fixed for u :)

VERBAL KINT
15-06-2015, 18:23
LOL:beguiled:

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 18:41
Why would I worry about explaining things like a diff to people, they should know, Mint attitude Vits.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 18:41
Well you're not going to explain a diff, have you ever adjusted one in real life? Go get sweaty and take your tool friend with ya?
You two think you're in the playground still, because thats what it looks like?
Little boys think they're trolls, but they can't do that right lol

Roger Prynne
15-06-2015, 19:17
I think that's enough now guys, just let him get on with his thing.

Luke Townsend
15-06-2015, 19:19
It's like Eastenders this thread. Kind of entertaining but really it's a crying shame - tuning is a massive aspect of this game. Good to have a thread on it. The he-said she-said stuff is not needed guys.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 19:34
They won't listen. Getting top tens in Forza has gone to their heads. I didn't start my Forza club, but was entrusted with it after the leaded got fed up with thier squabbling. Club politics eh!
They got shown a few tuning tricks that they cling to and seems to keep them happy. But I couldn't care less really, they're just young.

Real_Reece
15-06-2015, 19:54
A little update with the g55 been getting used to the car this evening doing tt round donington national turned abs on and that was a massive difference! Lower pressures and more downforce has seen me jump to 9th on the leaderboards and there's still some time out there for me. Looking forward to see what you come up with

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 20:04
They won't listen. Getting top tens in Forza has gone to their heads. I didn't start my Forza club, but was entrusted with it after the leaded got fed up with thier squabbling. Club politics eh!
They got shown a few tuning tricks that they cling to and seems to keep them happy. But I couldn't care less really, they're just young.Pfft, here you go again talking rubbish lad, club politics, why what happened ??? If he can't answer he's clearly talking like a true gobshite.Thread should be locked imo he knows nothing but then again keep it going, atleast it keeps him from annoying others in other threads. Kids, clue's in the tag, your clearly a ballbag and your brain is full of shit!

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 20:07
Wow, you don't need my help. Why don't you see if DIXON can help you? He loves hot lapping, I thought you were doing career or some thing.

It turn out to be for general purpose use around lobbies, so I did the right thing.

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 20:08
Can we stop the pointless arguements now?
If you have a personal problem with each other, take it to PM.

This is a tuning discussion thread (or at least it should be).

Roger Prynne
15-06-2015, 20:15
Can we stop the pointless arguements now?
If you have a personal problem with each other, take it to PM.

This is a tuning discussion thread (or at least it should be).

Exactly.

DIXON76
15-06-2015, 20:25
If he stops bringing my name up i will stop posting in here!

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 20:25
Ginneta G55 GT3
This setup was made whilst driving around Watkins Glen USA. It's not one of the cars native tracks, but my use of full downforce has made the car grip well through high speed bends. It was tuned with the assists turned off, but the car is designed to be used with them for various reasons. Further brake tuning maybe done for personal tastes despite having ABS. The setup incorperates the fine trim position adjustments as highlighted earlier in this thread. For lower speed circuits wing would have to be evenly removed and raising of the ride heights. Camber may also have to be increased along with toe adjustment to suit the scrub. I haven't had time to try it elsewhere, enjoy.
208002

Tyres GT3 Medium slick.
Brake Pressure 85%, Bias 65%, Duct 15%?
TCS 9%?
Weight bias 48.2%?
Recommended Steering ratio 27.0:1
1% accel, 49%, Preload 200Nm
Rad 30%?
3.11 Final drive. Raising this will soften the LSD effect.
Stock gears
30L fuel
Minimum brake mapping. Full power.

bubbadabutcher
15-06-2015, 20:28
Multivitz- I know who Dixon is, but I have no idea who you are other than a guy who does seem to know about tuning, but who presents himself as an authority on the subject while having a terrible time both with staying on message and with presenting information.

So, who are you, multivitz? What clubs have you belonged to? What virtual or real world experience and knowledge do you have that should cause I, or anyone else, to want to listen to you? Sincere request for information here. I've driven a couple of your tunes. They are good but don't answer questions.

OperatorWay
15-06-2015, 21:12
This is how a tuning forum gets ruined - productive & civil discussion dies because of persistent hostilities over who's "right" & who's "wrong" & who's "more qualified" to even talk about virtual car tuning in a video game.

The proper way to usefully critique a tune is to share a better one. The tune will speak for itself.

Multivitz is indeed on another wavelength, but for the most part, at least he contains his musings in this one thread. If this thread gets closed/locked, more of this back-&-forth derailing will again spill over into other threads. I vote we leave him to his business here so that he'll return the favor by leaving other tuning threads to theirs.

Real_Reece
15-06-2015, 21:35
It's going to be for racing online. It was very unstable before but I think between using abs and the downforce that has settled it down enough the be stable. Will have to try it at catalunya again see it it's easier to drive there. Would like to know what other people takes on the car is though.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 21:57
@Bubba If you see anything I've said about tuning that you find is wrong, then please do the right thing and highlight it for everyone. Please don't do as some others have and try to say black is white. This is so important, not just for me. My posts are presented differently from any text you might find in a book, this is done to break any sort of communication barrier. It won't help anyone who has to translate it, but I've heard thier managing.
So you like the listen to someone in authority. I listen to my own truth, its called commen sense. If anyone needs a practical demonstration of the effects certain adjustments, I can suggest them. I usually do recaps.
I have answered your career question in other posts and refere to the tuning grind thread.
I have been waiting for this game all my life, like most men my age with these intrests.
I seem to know alot about tuning, I know alot of other subjects quite well to. If anyone engages me in a subject I'm game, I do love to share information. I can get it wrong sometimes, we all do. In this forum theres plenty of readers that can check for misinformation!
My posts read as statements and absolutes, its quite off putting when asked to trust a stranger. Thats not my problem, it's like anything in life, doing is learning. I don't like the harm of ignorance, if you haven't learned by doing, you don't know. You can say you think somethings this way or that, thats fine, but when you know somethings that way. Tell it how you see it, or wysiwyg? My tunes have little bite at the moment, ot takes forever and a day of intense concentration to tune on pC, small telemetry, no ffb, no audio adjustment, slow difficult menus, chase cam moves all the time, no skid marks, no telemetry in replays, etc. Its tuning blind if I'm honest with ya, if I haven't had my skills from the real world it would be even harder.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 21:59
This is how a tuning forum gets ruined - productive & civil discussion dies because of persistent hostilities over who's "right" & who's "wrong" & who's "more qualified" to even talk about virtual car tuning in a video game.

The proper way to usefully critique a tune is to share a better one. The tune will speak for itself.

Multivitz is indeed on another wavelength, but for the most part, at least he contains his musings in this one thread. If this thread gets closed/locked, more of this back-&-forth derailing will again spill over into other threads. I vote we leave him to his business here so that he'll return the favor by leaving other tuning threads to theirs.

Thanks mate, you wouldn't want me spilling all over the place lol
Don't worry about the thread, I ain't. It's all safe one way or another.
I couldn't belive that thread about bam and corner cutting, some say the tarmac straightens out in front of him....all we can say is.........give it a rest and play da game.

bubbadabutcher
15-06-2015, 22:07
So you like the listen to someone in authority.

Not really. But when someone speaks as though they are an authority, I do like it when they establish their bonafides in a more than vague fashion. Doesn't seem like too much to ask, but no worries. Now I know who you are. Enjoy the game, multivitz.

Operator1- Good to see you around!

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 22:26
I try to not let occupation interfere with subjects. When theres a foundation of correct up to date knowlege, learning begins?
Thanks for your understanding.:)

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 22:36
It's going to be for racing online. It was very unstable before but I think between using abs and the downforce that has settled it down enough the be stable. Will have to try it at catalunya again see it it's easier to drive there. Would like to know what other people takes on the car is though.

I think the cars are meant to use ABS in real life, someone said on here. So don't think you're at a disadvantage. I really can't be releasing hotlap tunes just yet. I posted a Merc DTM tune thats you may want to look at, if that helps. There's loads of cars and tracks I haven't drove yet, I just don't get the time:(

I didn't notice Reeces earlier post and gave him a pm last night. After a little chat and some spare time today I knocked up a tune for the Ginetta, its in this thread. Its on Medium slicks and tuning it gave me an opportunity to drive a new track;)

Real_Reece
15-06-2015, 22:42
Yeah would make sense cause trying to run that thing with no abs is a nightmare. Took it online a seems to do alright off line and going round the outside. Wasn't a tight pack though so will need to do some more testing. I'll have another blast tomorrow night and maybe make some changes. Had about 4 hours in the car now so got the handle on it. Won't ask for a tune from you but I'll ask for cures if I can't work work about the issues that arise. Thanks

bubbadabutcher
15-06-2015, 22:44
I posted a Merc DTM tune thats you may want to look at, if that helps.

In all fairness, I tried and liked this tune you did. Will probably give it a go again as well. It just wasn't ideal for the track I was doing a hot lap contest on, so ended up doing my own.

MULTIVITZ
15-06-2015, 23:23
Ok, I put a silly low ride hight on it, but its a cracking car out the box. The tune is nothing wild, just solid until you see a kerb lol
You are talking about the clk?

I do like a kerb muncher, with the 2 speed damping tuning its a world apart from other games I've played. 3 stage would be better, but the car would end up like a space ship lol

bubbadabutcher
15-06-2015, 23:43
Ok, I put a silly low ride hight on it, but its a cracking car out the box. The tune is nothing wild, just solid until you see a kerb lol
You are talking about the clk?
I am. Was running monza short and, while your tune was definitely stable and fast, it REALLY doesn't like kerbs. And the go go fast fast line at that track pretty much guarantees going over at least one of them.

My bad. I'm referring to the DTM c-class.

MULTIVITZ
16-06-2015, 12:37
Oh that lol
I was tuning it for the community event a day before it closed. I had it right on the thrust edge of the front tyre and it would take me across the first corner around Hockenheim in one sweep, then the bug decided to set it back to default!! The next day I started retuning it but had to go out, so I posted it up for anyone to finish as that evening was the last chance on that event.
Yeah you would need to retune it, the diff wasn't too bad though.imo

MULTIVITZ
01-07-2015, 10:10
JAUNT

This is one of the most fundamental aspects of car setup and chassis tuning. Its also involved in high speed driving and becomes an important part of anyones driving style from car to car.
Despite the above statements, that were written by me, there is no mention of jaunt in this forum.
Is anyone aware of jaunt and it's impact on camber thrust?

I assume players want to improve their game play?
You hear talk about tyre pressures all the time, mainly the pressure versus temperature. It's a well understood relationship that has some minor variations through tyre design and heat sources.
But you don't hear talk about tyre pressure and camber thrust, you just don't.

It seems most players tune jaunt out of the setup and play about with the adjustments until they find a settled ride that gives a consistant lap time. Something their mum would be impressed with.

The big eight?

The relationship between, chamber thrust, sway, jaunt, roll camber, dymanic camber, tyre pressure, compression, and wedge, give the most optimum grip.
A tuner has to be aware of the above 8 elements to be able to adjust the slip angle of an axle, and of course the cars balance.
So how many of those 8 elements will you be looking for when you adjust your ride?
You may be aware of some, but they all work together with the chassis's weight transfere.
We use cadence braking and the steering wheel to induce jaunt, but a tuner will be lost to the effect thier adjustments have if they are unfamiliar with the other 7 elements!
Let's do some math to help realise the complex nature of this subject, 8x8=64, 64 interrelationships, and thats not exhaustive.
I omitted 'roll coupling' from the list as it's a compound effect. Also hold down, scrub, top out,etc as they can raise thier heads from time to time(in positive and negative ways).
When they say chassis tuning is a black art, you can see why, luckly Project CARS allows us to enjoy the art as well as other aspects found in motor racing.
I don't over complicate things, how can I, in a subject that is vastly complex!
I will try my best to simplify matters, but on a need to know basis, if someone needs a complex explanation it's probably as simple as it gets without math!

Deadzone
01-07-2015, 10:15
Glad to see you back. what is this Jaunt you mention, please elaborate.:)

MULTIVITZ
01-07-2015, 12:17
Glad to see you back. what is this Jaunt you mention, please elaborate.:)

Thanks, I have been around:rolleyes: 'Seek and you shall find', don't allow any more complex versions of this saying reduce the massively powerful truth this saying has.

Horses get driven and you can go for a jaunt on one.
The reins are used to turn the horses head in time with the gallop of it's legs(the horse transferes weight to it's hooves!) The bobbing motion of the ride is called the jaunt. It has rhythm, pace(time spent in the motions), limits, and events.

In a car the steering wheel turns the car in time to the weight transferes, the rhythm comes from your driving style and the road, the pace is controlled but the dampers(and other things), limits are the tyres grip, events are interruptions to the jaunt, say inpatient driving style!?

Try and find some articles about these aspects of car tuning and get back to me for a chat. That way we both can add more and help others better. :)

The jaunt could be said ' its the collective sum of the ride frequency and it's behavour! '.
The cars ride frequency gets tuned to the track for improved results? I hope this helps.

MULTIVITZ
10-08-2017, 20:00
MULTIVITZ©

OK don't get too excited, it's only me. Howz yo feel out there?
I bet you all feel pretty much the same as you did last time you were here. I mean energy levels, skill, endurance. I'm not talking about how confident you've all become, what mountains you've conquered, or tunnels you've been through!
How do you feel, no, not wiv me hands. How connected are the feelings you're getting from your environment? You know when you do sport driving it requires nutrients to feed and nourished the connect between the contact points and your brain. The spine has brain cells in. The body in turn is in a sea of energy plasma called the air around us.
Halides are building up in all and everyone of us. In every cell. Every cell needs Iodine, but you knew that? Every cell needs Boron, google it. You won't find quick info! Your brain won't grow altered protein(brain plasticity) to learn new skills without Boron. You won't remember new tracks fast, if at all. You won't remember where you left your car keys to even go for a drive! And we all thought that's normal lol
A friend once said to me 'what's the point in owning a car, you drive from A to B and back again, you don't get anywhere!'. I think he was missing the point, driving is a journey of experience, not transport, get on a bus for that. If one can't remember the journey, or learn from it then the point of experience is marred (google it, are you paying attention at the back?!).
Borons only found at a few places on earth, pesticides remove it from soil, fact. I'm regrowing my teeth. Ha ha ha... I am.

Anyway that's enough rambling. Now. To business, as you know the driving school got closed down due to lack of interest....I know I know the dolly birds and flash dťcor didn't work. We tried everything from over inflated claims, sorry lieing, about telemetry apps, free pit works, career bonuses, you name it. Nothing seemed to work. But there's hope in the future, no it's not Hamilton self drive assist, no I told you turn the F#@£in things off, and use the force Luke.
Word on the circuit is there's this rich guy who luvs cars and has access to loads of 'em. I've managed to get a meeting with his top brass next month, let's hope he don't shitout at the last minute.

MULTIVITZ
12-08-2017, 10:14
I only made the calculator so that the numbers in the setup screen actually translate into something meaningful and comparable between cars, and to remove as much unnecessary testing with guesswork setups that are never going to make sense (like racing car setups with 100% higher rear spring suspension frequencies, or locked down supercritical damping, or completely underdamped settings, etc.). If you don't know what the numbers actually mean for the car you can easily end up testing more or less ridiculous combinations for hours on end trying to blindly find something that'll work, especially if you try to employ something you've learned with one car in another, which might well have completely different geometry, that you can't check. It's kind of like looking at how the tyre temperatures are coming out when adjusting for tyre pressure and camber instead of just guessing, giving you actual metrics to work with.

It's also really useful for finding specific issues with cars. Like at one point the BMW M3 GT4 had significant issues while entering corners with bumps on the entrance, or just in situations where you were being rough with it. It could have been caused by many things, like too rear biased springs, too much rear rebound damping causing oversteer in braking or lift-off situations, too much rear bump damping causing the rear to break loose in the bumps, diff issues, or many other things, but when I fed the setup into my calculator, I instantly saw that the rear damping was just too low (average was significantly under 50% critical at 3 in/s), it couldn't control the rear springs properly and the tail wanted to oscillate a lot longer than the front. So I just found damper values that made sense for the situation and instantly the car was fixed, handling bumps with ease. At one point the BMW M3 E30 Gr.A had issues with very sudden and terminal understeer, even if the actual front end grip level was fairly high. It just wanted to lose the front grip suddenly. On top of that the car was overall bouncy and unstable when hitting disturbances with only one side. Feed it into the calculator, and I instantly saw that the front suspension frequency was 60% higher than the rear and just massively stiff overall, which robbed the front end of any progressiveness, the damping was very low which made the car oscillate too long (bouncy), and the anti-roll bars were overly stiff, which made hitting asymmetric bumps disturb the other side of the car too harshly (suspension wasn't independent anymore). Fix the front bias to something more sensible, up the dampers to more suitable range, and lower the ARBs, and the car became a ton more progressive and dynamic during entries, didn't get bothered by bumps, and maintained stability over kerbs etc. One of the LMP2 cars felt significantly more difficult to drive than the others even when set up similarly, it was less settled over bumps and overall less calm and trust inspiring, the calculator revealed that even though the weight, weight distribution, motion ratios, springs and damper settings were almost identical with another car, the damper digression knee was different, which caused it to need very different damper settings to hit the same actual damping rates as the other car. Adjust them again with that taken into account, and the car was just as great as the other one (and trying to replicate the "bad" setup in the other car also gave similar problems). There were tons of situations like these where I could fix problems in car behavior by just looking at how the suspension metrics came out. Trying to figure those out by adjusting one thing, then driving a few laps, adjusting another, driving a few laps again, etc., would have taken days, instead it took minutes. =)

It's not a cure all, and mostly it's useful for finding a nice baseline to start from, but it can be immensely helpful at preventing "silly stuff". =)

Personally, after I've gotten a baseline for a car that I'm comfortable with, I've mostly found that other than aero and gearing (and diff on occasion) adjustments there's really not too much to be gained by fiddling too much with the springs and dampers, a car that corners neutrally and handles bumps well on one track tends to corner neutrally and handle bumps well on other tracks as well. Occasionally stiffening up a bit for a smooth track or softening the setup for a bumpy track can be beneficial, but even then I like to maintain the same front/rear and damping bias in the car, to retain the basics of the handling even though the stiffness changes, making it easier for me to get comfortable with the car on the new track. =)



I think you're playing down the black art. I was one of the consultants for the Fms4 tuning calculator, it's not bad, it gave the user a base line tune. Something a game developer would spend time doing, so the players could have a coherent starting point to tune from in a realistic POV. Oh no, we don't see that? We don't see that because we don't really know what we're doing, do we. I've seen it time and time again, some cars are spot on, most are set up by a child, probably on a child's wage!
We contacted one of the fathers of down force, we did(I'm not going to drop names). And we had a chat, and it went straight away into suspension frequencies. Great, we thought, thank you very much. The initial excitement wore off when we introduced driving style into the equation.
When anyone says it's a Black Art, it means things are hidden, the moments, the fluctuations, air pressure, heat, driver intention/reluctance, chassis flex, setup anomalies. I would go on, but then you sit behind the wheel can you see any of the things in that brief list? No? Can YOU see any thing on that list? Maybe with your eyes if you take them off the road for a bit? Driving blind is fun(please, not on a public road!!).
So there's major factors effecting the limits of our car performance, so let's rigup some sensors and aquisition the data to monitor, in real time, for some illuminance on the matter. Ah ha, there they are, quick, gather around, feast your eyes on the data patterns.
NO. Sorry, but no. All things on that list, and more CAN be seen. But but Multi' you're wrong blah blah blah.........
Even on a simulator all things can be seen, it takes some time, I'm quick, some teams take days to spot and solve. I have video's of me tuning the Capri in a simulator called Project Cars. Thirty minuites for a good baseline tune suited to the chassis that withstands a flamboyant flaying from the controls, without excess slip. It's called 'Crashproof' in the art. Understeer gives a similar effect,(Audi, bringing understeer to the masses(C Harris)).
I see with my eye's, I look at a car and see it's surfaces, aero add ons, suspension design, wheelbase, tyre sizes, brake size, ride height, etc. See what you've got, take what you see to your heart. Except vortex's, they make you feel happy, you get them in turbos, airflows off sharp edges, inside pipes, in cavities, off your door mirrors, in ya cup o tea......to be any good at a black art you need to be outside the box looking with all your senses, on a simulator we can surmise, we understand how moments of forces interact through the different components, of the car, and their mathematical proportional relationship to each other. Don't we?
Surmising means having an idea and testing it based on the evidence, then seeing results and testing again, reiteration, it's a simulator. A suspension test rig can do things like that, but it has trouble with vortexes. A suspension calculator won't find the final pieces/adjustment to a track pacific setup, bumpstop behaviour, aero trim, tyre wear, fuel load effect, and certainly not Aero load! You can put together some software that works for a vehicle, and we'll see some for simulators. But the icing on the cake comes from the humble experience of the tune/engineer, the surmiser, the one who looks at what they've got, and asks.
Remember the question is far more important than the answer. Has anyone mentioned road spring damper dynamic Threshold's yet anyone....put up your hand.....anyone?





(I hate using hints, so passive, so last century lol)



Don't worry Ian, I'm not not running mock, it's just the forces interacting with the plasma(hint- that's where the dynamic memories are stored, NOT in one's brain matter, contrary to popular belief!)

hkraft300
12-08-2017, 10:40
Suspension calculator will get you pointing in the right direction.
It's the experience of the engineer, the wisdom of the black art, that'll get you on the bull's-eye.

I very much appreciate Jussi's calculator. Got me in the ball park. After that it's testing and fine tuning to dial the car in.

MULTIVITZ
12-08-2017, 11:42
Everyone should use the calculator and it will only get better, you heard it here first?
As mentioned by others, there's different ways a suspension can be setup. I'm referring to high bound damping vs high rebound. They can both be hard or soft, they can both allow the vehicle to lean over into a corner or resist body roll. They both effect frequency, but in essence Jaunt is the real takeaway. Wouldnt you agree? Jaunt is your cars dynamic ride height, that is your rake, your diffuser stance, your CoG that's waiting to do work on the axle. It's the tuners job to project the plan in setup and test execution. What does the tuner want the axles to do, how will they effect each other, how flexible are the drivers skills and attitude. Has he got balls, can she grow some? Where is the CoG going to? An in depth tuning tutorial for the calculator would be immense, but unless the user is well rounded in car knowledge using it could be troublesome, almost pointless? Pc has been a learning curve for everyone. For me , it seemed half baked, with lots of fundamentals missing, they were missed, not all on purpose, some couldn't be helped, we all tried our best.

Now if you haven't heard of Damper Threshold tuning put ya hand down! Anyone.....?


Shut up Luke, I know the class hasn't started, it's like one of those authoritarian open university type online courses, you know the ones where you get taught a complete load of rubbish then have to parrot it back to test your memory. No this ain't like one of those....sorry I'm getting confused with public schooling, my bad!

hkraft300
12-08-2017, 13:28
Calculator is useless if you don't know how a difference in frequency will affect your balance, or what critical damping means.

Aero-heavy cars experience CoP changes with rake and ride height, so controlling/influencing that brings obvious benefits. How important is "jaunt" for less Aero-dependant cars?

I suck at testing execution. It's all well and good at 90%, but I don't have the talent not pace to keep the car at 100% to see what the car is really doing.

MULTIVITZ
12-08-2017, 19:03
Quite, but you can't condem it that easily. When you know what you're doing, like me, tuning setup calculators can be the dog's dangleyz. You still need appropriate testing and assessment, which is fun for all involved, and everyone gets to sample the merchandise afterwards.

Jaunt, the dance of being out of control, the collection of harmonic undulations. It appears as the road bullies your ride into submission. Over harsh steering commitment can cause excessive jaunt, when uncommitted and relaxed style is used, speed can be gained after timing the jaunt for the exit/direction change. It should be felt all the time in your elbows and seat, the brake pedal gets crazy abuse.
Correct jaunt can gain small cornering G's, it depends on the track. Bottoming out can do various things to the jaunt, it usually kills it!


Don't worry about the Centre of Pressure, that goes forward the faster you go. That's why a heavy set front wing is silly for high speeds, but with modern aero packages and careful air flow/service flow management, car handling is kept balanced under high aero applications. Don't forget tuning the bumpstops can regulate the rake in corner. Don't mention it.....

90%..... any more of that and you, me and my ruler are having a driving lesson, military style!

hkraft300
13-08-2017, 01:04
Ohh. Like trail braking. Get the nose turned. Get the rear to squat on exit.

I hate driving the NASCAR.

Damper Code is improved for pc2. You'll have fun with that.