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wraithsrike
30-05-2015, 11:33
Fella who ever you are weldone.

The physics for me in project car's are superb, I've done a little trackday in the ginettas around Brandshatch and can't believe how close you have came to real life feel, ok nothing is going to feel like driving the cars themselves but your clearly very very good at your work.

My only worry now is every time a development team releases a follow up game they say we've updated the physics, ok of course every thing can be improved upon but please don't kill them.

Again weldone fella.

David Wright
30-05-2015, 13:43
Fella who ever you are weldone.
.

Doug Arnao - posting as Doug914 on the forum.

Mark Bevan
30-05-2015, 13:50
Doug Arnao - posting as Doug914 on the forum.

David Wright as in the GPL luminary David Wright ? I wonder how you know Doug Arnao ;)

I wish we had a few more of the 67 F1 cars, to go with that Lotus 49 :loyal:

wraithsrike
30-05-2015, 13:50
Well Doug & team thankyou guys , I think you've just shown the others in your field how it's done.

Ian Bell
30-05-2015, 13:51
We have 6 guys on the physics team.

wraithsrike
30-05-2015, 13:53
We have 6 guys on the physics team.

And between them they've done a fantastic job.

Ian Bell
30-05-2015, 13:54
It might be 5 :) Sorry, I can't be bothered counting right now.

mister dog
30-05-2015, 13:59
It might be 5 :) Sorry, I can't be bothered counting right now.

As long as you remember their names.

JDFSSS
30-05-2015, 14:01
I haven't played all the hardcore PC sims, so I can't say this game has the best physics out there. However, I think the physics are great and it's the best I've seen. Far better than any "simcade" game like gran turismo/codemasters f1. Overall this game just has a lot of depth where you notice things behind the scenes that add to the gameplay.

John Hargreaves
30-05-2015, 14:01
Doug Arnao, Andrew Weber and Casey Ringley are the lead guys, they don‘t let the others out in public much, but we love them all for what they have given us. You would not believe the depth of knowledge that they have between them.
Trivia tip: you may see liveries with Ringley Engineering logos on some cars, they are named after Casey, and there are a few Weber logos out there, which I think are after Andrew rather than the well known carburettor company. Not sure I‘ve ever seen one for Doug though.

mister dog
30-05-2015, 14:06
I haven't played all the hardcore PC sims, so I can't say this game has the best physics out there. However, I think the physics are great and it's the best I've seen. Far better than any "simcade" game like gran turismo/codemasters f1. Overall this game just has a lot of depth where you notice things behind the scenes that add to the gameplay.
If i can compare it to AC which is renowned for having excellent physics, i can say i prefer PCARS as the tyre model makes a big difference, the cars feel a bit more natural to drive fast and the FFB settings are more expansive, allowing you to fine tune the feel so it fits your particular wheel perfectly.

Equation
30-05-2015, 14:09
I have to say that Laguna Sega feeling is great. I feel like I falling at turn 8 :) Are you laser scanned every track?

LADY GEMMA JANE
30-05-2015, 14:11
Laguna Sega is awesome
love the corkscrew turn 8

Ian Bell
30-05-2015, 14:13
I have to say that Laguna Sega feeling is great. I feel like I falling at turn 8 :) Are you laser scanned every track?

Some, some we use GPS data and vids/photos etc.

Spiderx
30-05-2015, 15:33
Lovely Job, but can we ask the magicians to really turn all aids off when.... aids are off ? :) oh do have a small complain, who was the genious that thought that a shaking wheel is = more fun ? please do give us an option to disable that :/

Thank you

Roger Prynne
30-05-2015, 15:40
who was the genious that thought that a shaking wheel is = more fun ?
We have been saying that for a long time but nothing was ever done about it for whatever reason.

Mad Al
30-05-2015, 15:59
Doug Arnao, Andrew Weber and Casey Ringley are the lead guys, they don‘t let the others out in public much, but we love them all for what they have given us. You would not believe the depth of knowledge that they have between them.
Trivia tip: you may see liveries with Ringley Engineering logos on some cars, they are named after Casey, and there are a few Weber logos out there, which I think are after Andrew rather than the well known carburettor company. Not sure I‘ve ever seen one for Doug though.

plus two physics coders?...

Peter Arbet and Steve Dunn

Lawndarts
30-05-2015, 16:36
It's very interesting the approach PCARS to in regards to the physics. They are actually better than most realize because FFB isn't translating most of the FX well without very knowledgable understanding of how to adjust it.

Where most games get it wrong is trying to hard to do a literal interpretation of real world physics, resulting in a very slippery feel. That feel is only authentic at the edge of the gip, or in the extreme of a slip angle when the car is under a lot of load and gforce, visceral sensations hard to replicate in a 2D plane, or game.

PCARS seems to add a lot more sensation at the extremes of the performance envelope to help translate those real forces.

Because of this it's more intuitive for the player to push to the edge of the performance envelop and more intuitively help players learn that in real racing, your "sliding" most of the time. Other sims you need to just know that you need to set up for turns, and that if you find yourself reacting to the cars control you've already blown your lap.

PCARS does a good job "hooking" your car in the slip angle and let's you use the traction envelope to make small adjustments.

There really is a lot I can say about what I've been experiencing and how it translated both good and not as good as others, but it has all the ingredients and clear they are trying to innovate digital car racing. I've been racing in real life for 30 years, and developing games for over 20, there is some very real substance in here but the FFB needs some tweaking first, then further refinements from there, Jack did a great job but still feels like a "base" implementation. Perhaps what should have shipped with the game, but there is soooo much more to be done to be fully realized. If your liking the game now, it's going to get way better before long.

David Wright
30-05-2015, 16:46
David Wright as in the GPL luminary David Wright ? I wonder how you know Doug Arnao ;)

I wish we had a few more of the 67 F1 cars, to go with that Lotus 49 :loyal:

The same, though GT Legends converted me to historic touring cars, GTs and prototypes, and my focus since 2007 has been working on the Power & Glory mod for GTR2. More 67 F1 cars would certainly be very welcome :)

Doug914
30-05-2015, 17:01
Well said. It's been my mantra for years with sim physics. Stop me if you've heard this before, but I've never driven a reasonably well setup race car that was hard to drive. It's pretty easy to push most of them to 80-90% of their capability. It's the last 10% where the magic, talent and bad stuff happens. The ice most sims portray has always just been wrong. AJ's world class SETA tire model allowed Casey and I to really have the tools to create a real life experience. It's ridiculously complicated and detailed to the point where every single part of the nylon and rubber physical properties is simulated. One thing it does that none other has is rubber to track surface interlocking through various parameters. Something I always knew was missing. This models the rubber locking into the track aspirations, then stretching and ripping more or less....This gets rid of the usual flat surface on flat surface sliding model most sims are forced to use. Hence the feeling of ice.

vicdavery
30-05-2015, 17:12
4 lines of pure genius. :)

mister dog
30-05-2015, 17:16
It's very interesting the approach PCARS to in regards to the physics. They are actually better than most realize because FFB isn't translating most of the FX well without very knowledgable understanding of how to adjust it.
Depends on your wheel of course as they all have a different feel, but i found that jerking around with the Fx,y,z and Mz sliders in the car's FFB menu allowed you to get the feedback for that particular car just right. Glad those sliders are present for each car separately :)

Apart from that, i found the 'out of the box' feel on my CSR was already very good from the start.

wraithsrike
30-05-2015, 17:36
I don't understand all the technical stuff I just know what I feel when playing racing games, and yes all feel some what slidie.

Project cars seem to translate grip right up to the point where you just know it's going to let go, I've never felt this in a game before.

I've played Gt from 1-6 and forza 1-5 plus many.others before but the cars always felt you were driving on a damp track or the cars steered from the middle rather than the front, I don't know how you guys have done it I just like what I experience in game, even the break and grab as you power into the bend just feels right.

Linus27
30-05-2015, 17:42
David Wright as in the GPL luminary David Wright ? I wonder how you know Doug Arnao ;)

I wish we had a few more of the 67 F1 cars, to go with that Lotus 49 :loyal:

I wish we had more F1 cars, especially the Honda.

Doug914
30-05-2015, 17:49
I don't understand all the technical stuff I just know what I feel when playing racing games, and yes all feel some what slidie.

Project cars seem to translate grip right up to the point where you just know it's going to let go, I've never felt this in a game before.

I've played Gt from 1-6 and forza 1-5 plus many.others before but the cars always felt you were driving on a damp track or the cars steered from the middle rather than the front, I don't know how you guys have done it I just like what I experience in game, even the break and grab as you power into the bend just feels right.

Yes and this is basicly what i'm talking about above. You are someone without expectations, never driven a race car, but what you feel intuitively feels right. This is what instantly connects you to the game, says this is awesome..I'm am convinced. Period.

mister dog
30-05-2015, 17:55
Yes and this is basicly what i'm talking about above. You are someone without expectations, never driven a race car, but what you feel intuitively feels right. This is what instantly connects you to the game, says this is awesome..I'm am convinced. Period.

And then the sim racing elite steps in and claims "it's not a sim" http://www.rugbynetwork.net/phorum-5.1.15/mods/smileys/images/znaika.gif, because the car doesn't break away at every touch of the wheel :D

Sparky28
30-05-2015, 18:21
And then the sim racing elite steps in and claims "it's not a sim" http://www.rugbynetwork.net/phorum-5.1.15/mods/smileys/images/znaika.gif, because the car doesn't break away at every touch of the wheel :D

You got it in one I tried iracing for many months and found it so hard it was a joke
I mean how hard can a Jetta tdi race car actually be to drive? Or a mx5?
Very if you believe that iracing is a true representation of real life

Project cars is the first game I've played that gives me some understanding of what the tyres are doing
I can feel what's going on instead of guessing by what I can see!

jgaganas
30-05-2015, 19:16
It's all Grand Prix Legends fault... GPL defined "hard = realistic".

And i'm really glad there is a (slowly) change of attitude on this subject.

ctd
30-05-2015, 19:23
plus two physics coders?...

Peter Arbet and Steve Dunn

plus input from many talented WMD-members. Jussi is one of those that comes to my mind.

Edit: Oh forgot to mention. Also input from real drivers like Ben, Nic and Oli.

Sankyo
30-05-2015, 19:44
Of course there's a very vague line in these type of discussions between physics and FFB. There's the phyics depth on one side, then there's the FFB engine to communicate the physics. pCARS's FFB engine is very deep as well, and sometimes I'm afraid it could be off-putting for people. The problem IMO is that FFB is so highly personal. Luckily I myself am happy with the default FFB settings (although I turn down the Spindle Master Scale slightly to prevent the more subtle signals from drowning in the brute force of the CSW v2), and I think the FFB communicates brilliantly what the cars are doing.

There is a pretty large group, however, who like the more 'classic' FFB found in the older ISI titles and NKPro (the early versions of AC as well, not sure what its current status is), which most importantly has the straightforward 'less grip of the front tyres = less steering wheel resistance'. This is not how pCARS communicates understeer in most cases, and hence people think pCARS's FFB is bad/broken. Or they try and get that feel back by tuning the FFB. In my experience, however, basic real-life understeer (going too fast in a corner) doesn't result in lighter steering, but in the wheels scrubbing over the asphalt while keeping more or less the same resistance in the steering wheel. pCARS does that right, and has the lighter steering happening only when the grip really gets less, e.g. when locking the wheels or going over crests.
This all gives a very intuitive FFB for me, which makes driving in pCARS such a great experience to me.

SpeedLimitUnknown
30-05-2015, 20:22
Yes and this is basicly what i'm talking about above. You are someone without expectations, never driven a race car, but what you feel intuitively feels right. This is what instantly connects you to the game, says this is awesome..I'm am convinced. Period.

Doug, I tried your Nascar 4 setups in Project Cars and they don't work!!! [joking of course].

I'm surprised this site is still up! :)

http://www.vehiclecraft.com/n4/

Lawndarts
30-05-2015, 20:37
Good point about personal preference with FF, some like it strong, others not so much... A real race car turns quite effortlessly unless it uses a variable speed ratio.

To me, the single greatest achievement FB can do is simulate rotation of the car, the part you feel the most with your butt in real life. Some games makes the steering get really light, others stiffen in up. Loosening it up can simulate loss of grip and free skidding, stiffening it up does the same but uses a different logic like your wheels aren't spinning and exaggerates the tires lateral motion, as if there would be less resistance if the tires aren't rolling forward. In a real race car, the loss of grip while under G load feels like your your car is literally running away from you and the stearing resistance goes away due to the tires not being in a "groove" any longer. If your a smooth race ree, you can feel your tires fight to maintain grip, sort of like a "dance on the edge".

Of course this is just one example, but rotation, butt feel, is hard to compensate for, but is your leading indicator of where your car is in the traction circle. FFB is the only tactile feel we have so our wheels have a lot to compensate for. I use a CSW v2, I really like it, it does a heck of a job stock in most games, but I'm still eager for another guy out there that also races in real life to share his perfect settings for PCARS.

ermo
31-05-2015, 08:21
We have 6 guys on the physics team.


It might be 5 :) Sorry, I can't be bothered counting right now.

Peter Arbet (Physics Programmer), Doug Arnao (Car Physics and AI), Steve Dunn (Physics & AI Lead Coder), Casey Ringley (Vehicle Lead) and Andrew 'AJ' Weber (Seta Tyre Model).

Those are the names I've seen in posts on WMD. Unlike the other four, I've never seen Mr. Arbet engage with WMD at large but I have seen some of his code check-in comments. :)

Microcosmix
31-05-2015, 10:48
Yes and this is basicly what i'm talking about above. You are someone without expectations, never driven a race car, but what you feel intuitively feels right. This is what instantly connects you to the game, says this is awesome..I'm am convinced. Period.

Ive said this in some otner forums, pCars is the only sim where you intuitivly know how to save a slide. Very good job on the game, i cant go back to the other sims now, ive always felt irritated by there unintuitive driving mechanichs. Now I got what i always thought and wanted a racegame to feel like and im not even looking back.
Thanks for making this real!

Didd31
31-05-2015, 11:14
[QUOTE=ermo;957235]Peter Arbet (Physics Programmer), Doug Arnao (Car Physics and AI), Steve Dunn (Physics & AI Lead Coder), Casey Ringley (Vehicle Lead) and Andrew 'AJ' Weber (Seta Tyre Model).

Doug Arnao !!! => Papyrus's Grand Prix Legends :triumphant:

Mad Al
31-05-2015, 11:18
[QUOTE=ermo;957235]Peter Arbet (Physics Programmer), Doug Arnao (Car Physics and AI), Steve Dunn (Physics & AI Lead Coder), Casey Ringley (Vehicle Lead) and Andrew 'AJ' Weber (Seta Tyre Model).

Doug Arnao !!! => Papyrus's Grand Prix Legends :triumphant:

a.k.a Doug914 ;)

could_do_better
31-05-2015, 11:20
Calling Rob..... I think we need an article on the website about the provenance and depth of experience of the team.

It seems a lot of people don't understand the quantity of Sim royalty involved here. :-)

could_do_better
31-05-2015, 12:29
A partial list of Slightly Mad's staff and their credits : (From a 2009 press release so some names may have changed but most are still here)
Ian Bell - Head Of Development - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Andy Garton - Technical Director - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Stephen Viljoen - Lead Designer/Producer - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Eric Boosman - Art Director - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Doug Arnao - Physics/AI Director - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Jan Frischkorn - Art Lead - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Perran Truran - Lead Vehicle Modeller - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Viktor Kolomiets - Builds / Asset Manager - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Ged Keaveney - Programmer - GT Legends, GTR 2
Steve Dunn - Programmer - GT Legends, GTR 2
Robert Dibley - Programmer - GT Legends, GTR 2
Anders Johansson - Programmer - GT Legends, GTR 2
Iain Wallington - Programmer - GTR 2
Matt Hobbs - Programmer - GTR 2
Vittorio Rapa - Server Side Coder - GT Legends, GTR 2
Stephen Baysted - Sound Director - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Greg Hill - Sound Designer - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Casey Ringley - Vehicle Modeller - GT Legends, GTR 2
Gustavo Olivera - Vehicle Modeller - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Daniel Karlsson - Vehicle Texture Artist - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Bryn Alban - Vehicle Modeller - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2
Vincent Dambreville - Vehicle Texture Artist - GT Legends, GTR 2
Sven Moll - Track Production/Organics - GT Legends, GTR 2
Andreas Moll - Track Production/Organics - GT Legends, GTR 2
Sean Vollmer - Track Modeller - GTR, GT Legends, GTR 2

dustyjo
31-05-2015, 12:31
This really makes me want to get a proper wheel. There's a ton of stuff that you just can't feel through a controller, you know? Wish they weren't so expensive though.

Daynja
31-05-2015, 12:40
This really makes me want to get a proper wheel. There's a ton of stuff that you just can't feel through a controller, you know? Wish they weren't so expensive though. They arent matey. I bought ( a few years ago) a second hand Driving Force GT for 80 from Amazon.You can get cheaper than that on eBay or craigslist , or ask on reddits: r/simracing.

As for the quality of the wheel? Its not as good as the G27 but with the Jake Spade FFB mod listed on this very forum Im having the time of my life playing pCars

Roger Prynne
31-05-2015, 12:50
They arent matey. I bought ( a few years ago) a second hand Driving Force GT for 80 from Amazon.You can get cheaper than that on eBay or craigslist , or ask on reddits: r/simracing.

As for the quality of the wheel? Its not as good as the G27 but with the Jake Spade FFB mod listed on this very forum Im having the time of my life playing pCars
If I had to buy a wheel again I could not even afford to pay 10 for one... so not everybody has 80 lying around.... :(
Just saying.

Daynja
31-05-2015, 12:59
If I had to buy a wheel again I could not even afford to pay 10 for one... so not everybody has 80 lying around.... :(
Just saying.

I think you missed the part where I said you can find them cheaper than 80 (ebay craigslist reddit) :).

If however someone can only spare 10 then I wouldn't expect to find a decent working wheel & pedals for that amount.