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Bouyo
03-06-2015, 01:39
Before I have my beef about starting lights I'd just like to say that I'm enjoying Project Cars immensely and it's getting better and better each time I play; great job to SMS, you've made a gem.

My issue with the starting grid is that I seem to be faster than AI cars off the lights at least 80% of the time. Even when I'm 'slow' off the lights I still gain a couple places, but usually I'll take four to five places (and this goes for any car.)

Here's a video of me taking three places (from 5th to 2nd) with ease and AI is set to 100. I'm using no assists either. Notice how the AI is easily as fast as me around the track but off the lights they can't compete.

Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UilzZ2DPNE

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 03:00
It makes it even easier to get a good start because the light time isn't random.

madmax2069
03-06-2015, 03:02
Being that this is a sim you should be able to jump the start, and get a penalty as a result, jump starts happen in real life as well.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 03:48
Being that this is a sim you should be able to jump the start, and get a penalty as a result, jump starts happen in real life as well.

You don't get penalized for jumping the start if you time it right. There is a window between a penalty and the green lights. Have you played this game?

blacknred81
03-06-2015, 03:51
I found it possible to actually roll the start, if you time it correctly, you can slightly put your car into gear and start rolling a little bit before the lights go green, if you time it correctly, you can get a huge start and not get penalized for it....

madmax2069
03-06-2015, 03:52
You don't get penalized for jumping the start if you time it right. There is a window between a penalty and the green lights. Have you played this game?

Duh, im talking about leaving before the green light (like by a second or more), not getting a perfect launch.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 04:09
Duh, im talking about leaving before the green light (like by a second or more), not getting a perfect launch.

You're saying you get penalties in the game because you get them in real life.

"to jump the start, and get a penalty as a result"

We are saying in the game you can jump the lights and not get a penalty. The AI doesn't even stand a chance.

GT_Racing
03-06-2015, 04:20
You are right. It is way to fucking easy. They need to fix it ASAP. Online if you dont jump it you will be left. Qualifying is almost meaningless if you can just blow people out on the start every race.

GT_Racing
03-06-2015, 04:21
Duh, im talking about leaving before the green light (like by a second or more), not getting a perfect launch.

That just went straight over your head.

hkraft300
03-06-2015, 07:05
You are right. It is way to fucking easy. They need to fix it ASAP. Online if you dont jump it you will be left. Qualifying is almost meaningless if you can just blow people out on the start every race.

that's racing... get the car moving a fraction before green light but not too early to cross your grid line, balance wheelspin and avoid bogging down - get the jump on those snoozing at the grid :)

I've done races where I got an awesome launch but big turbo and short shift too early = bogged... -.-

vicdavery
03-06-2015, 07:56
OP doesn't seem to be talking about jumping lights in the normal sense, i.e. moving before they go green.
The text of the post indicates his issue is with how easy it is to pass many cars before the first bend, i.e. getting a "jump" on the AI cars.

If that is the case, then I raised this too during development.

The explanation that was given to me is that the AI are simulating how real drivers would normally perform, that they would be a bit tentative in order to avoid any major clashes when everyone is bunched.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that reasoning, I'm sure it's true for an amateur series where the driver is responsible for costs repairing their car, but in professional racing, e.g. F1 or Touring cars the attitude of drivers is very different. And we've all seen massive pile-ups at the first corner.
So personally I feel the AI should be a little more aggressive off the line too.

danowat
03-06-2015, 08:06
The start system is broken, you can get a good head start on the AI and leave your grid slot before the green light without getting a penalty.

You shouldn't really be able to start moving until the green light shows.

So to level the field, either the AI need to be able to do what the player can, and start moving before the green light and not get a penalty, or the penalty should be tightened so you can't move till the green light.

RedDave84
03-06-2015, 08:13
I do wish people what stop saying that various aspects of this game are broken. Its like a new buzz word FFS.

broken
ˈbrəʊk(ə)n/
adjective
adjective: broken

1.
having been broken.
"he had a broken arm"
synonyms: smashed, shattered, burst, fragmented, splintered, shivered, crushed, snapped, rent, torn, ruptured, separated, severed, in bits, in pieces;
destroyed, wrecked, demolished, disintegrated;
cracked, split, chipped;
informalin smithereens/smithers

Nothing in this game broken. There are some minor bug fixes and tweaks that need making. Nothing more.

Back on topic: I think the penalty window could do with being tighter. I think it is a bit too large.

PTG Claret
03-06-2015, 08:20
I do wish people what stop saying that various aspects of this game are broken. Its like a new buzz word FFS.

broken
ˈbrəʊk(ə)n/
adjective
adjective: broken

1.
having been broken.
"he had a broken arm"
synonyms: smashed, shattered, burst, fragmented, splintered, shivered, crushed, snapped, rent, torn, ruptured, separated, severed, in bits, in pieces;
destroyed, wrecked, demolished, disintegrated;
cracked, split, chipped;
informalin smithereens/smithers

Nothing in this game broken. There are some minor bug fixes and tweaks that need making. Nothing more.

Back on topic: I think the penalty window could do with being tighter. I think it is a bit too large.

Rest of the definition:
having breaks or gaps in continuity.
"a broken white line across the road"
synonyms: interrupted, disturbed, fitful, disrupted, disconnected, discontinuous, fragmentary, intermittent, unsettled, sporadic, spasmodic, erratic, troubled, incomplete
"it was a long, noisy night of broken sleep"
antonyms: uninterrupted
(of a language) spoken falteringly and with many mistakes, as by a foreigner.
"a young man talking in broken Italian"
synonyms: halting, hesitating, disjointed, faltering, stumbling, stammering, stuttering, imperfect
"she spoke in broken English"
antonyms: perfect
4.
having an uneven and rough surface.
"he pressed onwards over the broken ground"
synonyms: uneven, rough, irregular, bumpy; More
jagged, ragged, craggy, rutted, pitted, rutty
"he pressed onwards gingerly over the broken ground"
antonyms: flat, smooth

Yeh, the game is currently broken.

But its still pretty awesome, so the futures great.....

danowat
03-06-2015, 08:27
I do wish people what stop saying that various aspects of this game are broken. Its like a new buzz word FFS.

broken
ˈbrəʊk(ə)n/
adjective
adjective: broken

1.
having been broken.
"he had a broken arm"
synonyms: smashed, shattered, burst, fragmented, splintered, shivered, crushed, snapped, rent, torn, ruptured, separated, severed, in bits, in pieces;
destroyed, wrecked, demolished, disintegrated;
cracked, split, chipped;
informalin smithereens/smithers

Nothing in this game broken. There are some minor bug fixes and tweaks that need making. Nothing more.

Back on topic: I think the penalty window could do with being tighter. I think it is a bit too large.

Semantics.

Humour me then, how would you describe a system like the starting system that can be abused, and that doesn't really work as it should?

PTG Claret
03-06-2015, 08:29
Mmmmmmm.

A system that can be abused......and....doesn't work as it should.....?

FIFA?

Joeri Blootacker
03-06-2015, 08:32
Mmmmmmm.

A system that can be abused......and....doesn't work as it should.....?

FIFA?

LOOOOL,

RedDave84
03-06-2015, 08:33
Good god, even in those terms it still sn't broken.

I would call it in need of some polish and minor tweaks, as I have said.

The game would be broken if it was unplayable to some sort of degree, and it isn't.

BazzaLB
03-06-2015, 08:42
You can jump the start without penalty. That needs to be fixed.

Joeri Blootacker
03-06-2015, 08:45
all kidding aside, let us get back on topic.

Bouyo is correct when he says that you can abuse the starts.
you can jump start a race without getting a penalty. (only a fraction, but it still is a advantage over the AI)
also, the AI is slow off the line. that is also correct.

the solution is therefore 2 be found in 2 places.
- Make sure you can't start/roll your car before the green light is actually there
- Improve the AI, and give them a more diverse starting. (they shouldn't start perfect all the time, just like us, and they shouldn't always be slow either :) )

easier said than done however i think :)

But the WMD dev's have always delivered, so i'm quite sure they will get this one nailed as well sooner or later :)

PTG Claret
03-06-2015, 08:46
If your going to google a definition, have the decency to read the whole thing.

Online play is **disrupted** by people constantly being **disconnected**

The AI are **erratic** at best, and career is still a bit **rough** as the AI do not slow down for weather.

Force feedback keeps **intermittently** dropping, but there is a work around.

Yep. Broken.

BTW, has anyone got the achievement to pop for getting off the light in .2 seconds? Not sure if my reflexes really are that bad, or the achievement isn't working.

mister dog
03-06-2015, 08:47
OP doesn't seem to be talking about jumping lights in the normal sense, i.e. moving before they go green.
The text of the post indicates his issue is with how easy it is to pass many cars before the first bend, i.e. getting a "jump" on the AI cars.

If that is the case, then I raised this too during development.

The explanation that was given to me is that the AI are simulating how real drivers would normally perform, that they would be a bit tentative in order to avoid any major clashes when everyone is bunched.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that reasoning, I'm sure it's true for an amateur series where the driver is responsible for costs repairing their car, but in professional racing, e.g. F1 or Touring cars the attitude of drivers is very different. And we've all seen massive pile-ups at the first corner.
So personally I feel the AI should be a little more aggressive off the line too.

Yes, but this is still a videogame :)

I agree with the general sentiment, you can jump the green light without getting penalized, and the AI is a bit too slow off the line.

danowat
03-06-2015, 08:54
Good god, even in those terms it still sn't broken.

I would call it in need of some polish and minor tweaks, as I have said.

The game would be broken if it was unplayable to some sort of degree, and it isn't.

If something needs fixing, it's broken, ergo, the system needs fixing and is broken, just like in real life you can continue to drive your car if something is broken on it.

Saying it's broken doesn't (at least to me) carry the gravitas you appear to think it does, it doesn't mean the game is doomed, saying something like "broken beyond all repair" would deem that.

I don't understand the sycophantic comments here sometimes, and the need for some people to defend this game so vehemently.

I love the game, it's the best racing game I've ever played, but I can see that parts of it need fixing, and are broken, but the game is far from unplayable.

ciderman9000000
03-06-2015, 09:15
I agree with the OP.

I don't know about launching before the green light, I haven't tried that tbh, but even legitimate launches against AI opposition are far too easy. It's very much reminiscent of Forza where despite starting at the back of the grid you can pick up seven or eight positions in the first ten seconds of any given race. I was expecting pCars to be much more competitive off the line, but it really isn't, and that's unfortunate since it goes a long way towards negating the relevance of qualifying sessions.

Mr.Smoke
03-06-2015, 10:27
If your going to google a definition, have the decency to read the whole thing.

Online play is **disrupted** by people constantly being **disconnected**

The AI are **erratic** at best, and career is still a bit **rough** as the AI do not slow down for weather.

Force feedback keeps **intermittently** dropping, but there is a work around.

Yep. Broken.

BTW, has anyone got the achievement to pop for getting off the light in .2 seconds? Not sure if my reflexes really are that bad, or the achievement isn't working.

I have that achievement. It is working just fine on PS4.

Bouyo
03-06-2015, 12:37
Glad that you're all experiencing this too. I was liking how easy it was to blow other cars away (because I needed the advantage at the beginning) but now I think it spoils qualifying (as someone said) and I'm also tired of placing myself in 7th place on a solo event, just in order to have a challenge!

Every other aspect of the AI's performance is relatively on par (performance wise), it's just the start where they are massively outclassed every time.

Dents27
03-06-2015, 13:23
I have that achievement. It is working just fine on PS4.

I haven't managed to get it yet, and I launch either right as the green comes on or a fraction before. How did you get it?

hkraft300
03-06-2015, 14:34
BTW, has anyone got the achievement to pop for getting off the light in .2 seconds? Not sure if my reflexes really are that bad, or the achievement isn't working.

got it. the achievement is not broken :p


I haven't managed to get it yet, and I launch either right as the green comes on or a fraction before. How did you get it?

anticipate the green light and launch (release the brake/clutch) a fraction before the green light so your car crosses your grid box within 0>0.2 seconds of green light.

RedDave84
03-06-2015, 14:59
Tweaking and broken are not the same thing. All the ingredients are there, they work, they just need adjusting.


informal
improve (a mechanism or system) by making fine adjustments to it.
"engineers tweak the car's operating systems during the race"
synonyms: adjust, make adjustments to, modify, alter, make alterations to, change, adapt; More

Seems to me that broken does indeed carry the gravitas I think it does because in most of its usage the key factor is either that something is missing that prevents good operation or it doesn't work at all.

My disagreement with your (and many other's) choice of words is not psychophantic, how can it be when I have agreed that adjustments need to be made? It is that the insistance that the game is broken is an overreaction, and it is.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 17:03
It is scary that some people on these forums are so delusional they can't admit the game is broken. I enjoy the game a lot, but it is broken. When you have people who can't play online for more than 5-10 minutes that is broken. When you have AI literally pile up on each other the game is broken. When you have cars lifting off the ground WAY too easily the game is broken. Broken doesn't automatically mean a game is trash, it just means it needs to be fixed.

The starting grid lights penalty system is broken. It makes me wonder how many races the SMS staff have actually started in the game.

I'll emphasizes that I enjoy this game a lot and play it almost everyday.

Bouyo
03-06-2015, 18:51
Well aside from semantics, I completely agree with most of the people posting here that;

The tolerance for jumping the green light should be seriously tightened up. And the AI should be significantly faster off the lights, especially when set at 100.

Even when I'm starting 'with' the other cars, I'm always gaining places no problem. In the extreme case that I totally jump the green light and am not penalized (feeling even guilty) then I'm tearing through 5-6 cars in most cases (as the track/cars allow). I can remember being in 8th with a Radical SR8 and gaining pole by the first corner on AI 100 (in a legitimate fashion.)

I'm guessing that as AI tweaks go, this is not a big one to change.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 19:30
Well aside from semantics, I completely agree with most of the people posting here that;

The tolerance for jumping the green light should be seriously tightened up. And the AI should be significantly faster off the lights, especially when set at 100.

Even when I'm starting 'with' the other cars, I'm always gaining places no problem. In the extreme case that I totally jump the green light and am not penalized (feeling even guilty) then I'm tearing through 5-6 cars in most cases (as the track/cars allow). I can remember being in 8th with a Radical SR8 and gaining pole by the first corner on AI 100 (in a legitimate fashion.)

I'm guessing that as AI tweaks go, this is not a big one to change.

I wouldn't feel guilty. If the "race stewards" are not calling it you are free to go about your way. Just like in real racing. You will see drivers continuously abuse the track limits until the stewards say stop.

Dents27
03-06-2015, 19:31
anticipate the green light and launch (release the brake/clutch) a fraction before the green light so your car crosses your grid box within 0>0.2 seconds of green light.

I do that normally every race. And I get pretty much perfect launches everytime...wierd.

RedDave84
03-06-2015, 20:09
It is scary that some people on these forums are so delusional they can't admit the game is broken. I enjoy the game a lot, but it is broken. When you have people who can't play online for more than 5-10 minutes that is broken. When you have AI literally pile up on each other the game is broken. When you have cars lifting off the ground WAY too easily the game is broken. Broken doesn't automatically mean a game is trash, it just means it needs to be fixed.

The starting grid lights penalty system is broken. It makes me wonder how many races the SMS staff have actually started in the game.

I'll emphasizes that I enjoy this game a lot and play it almost everyday.

:hopelessness:

MULTIVITZ
03-06-2015, 20:28
Next you would be moaning about the mechanics no letting you out the pits and messing up the tune settings lol. Its part of the game, you jump them too much and its race over you ain't catching up! The Ai are too slow though, what slow asses tested the game play thats what I wanna know lol Its a very good game, very different, my rant about the tuning grind was out of order, but a blanket option would be very welcomed. I love jmping the lights, maybe its hard to judge the online lag delay so they went with the cross the line too soon and get a penalty, as opposed to, move too soon and get a penalty. I think it encourages the eager ones and gets everyone focused for the death race lol jmtc

GT_Racing
03-06-2015, 21:30
that's racing... get the car moving a fraction before green light but not too early to cross your grid line, balance wheelspin and avoid bogging down - get the jump on those snoozing at the grid :)

I've done races where I got an awesome launch but big turbo and short shift too early = bogged... -.-

That is not what it is though. You can just floor it before the green lights come on.

madmax2069
03-06-2015, 21:38
That is not what it is though. You can just floor it before the green lights come on.

Yeah maybe with penalties off, but with penalties on you get a penalty that you have to drive through the pits, if you dont drive through you get DQ (on a single lap race you instantly get DQ).

Maybe they just need to make it to where when penalties are off you cant move until the light turns green.

apexatspeed
03-06-2015, 21:43
Yeah maybe with penalties off, but with penalties on you get a penalty that you have to drive through the pits, if you dont drive through you get DQ (on a single lap race you instantly get DQ).

Maybe they just need to make it to where when penalties are off you cant move until the light turns green.

This is 100% not true. With penalties on you can full blown floor it before the green lights are on without getting a drive through. Have you not seen the people in this thread saying that?

GT_Racing
03-06-2015, 21:44
Yeah maybe with penalties off, but with penalties on you get a penalty that you have to drive through the pits, if you dont drive through you get DQ (on a single lap race you instantly get DQ).

Maybe they just need to make it to where when penalties are off you cant move until the light turns green.

No, with penalties on. You can punch it before the green lights and not get a penalty. If you dont do it online you will be left off the start. I exclusively do it because I am not about to be behind because the game doesnt penalize you for jumping starts. I leave people off the line continuously doing it.

There is a period before the green lights come on where you can drive off and not get penalized.

Also I noticed this on the first or second day of this game, and I am just curious. Do you own/play the game? It is a serious question, because on some forums people are on there and havent bought the game yet. I am perfectly ok with that, but I am curious.

dyr_gl
04-06-2015, 00:24
that's racing... get the car moving a fraction before green light but not too early to cross your grid line...

Yeah, great tip to get a penalty in real life.

Yet another "this obvious oversight in the game is actually an intentional and bold intentional decission to mimic real life" post.

apexatspeed
04-06-2015, 00:50
Yeah, great tip to get a penalty in real life.

Yet another "this obvious oversight in the game is actually an intentional and bold intentional decision to mimic real life" post.

This explains how so many discussions on this forum go. I almost pissed my self laughing.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcd0h53EV81rufewbo2_250.gif

You can flatten the throttle out of the grid before the lights turn on. "Welp that is racing" Hahahaha

transfix
04-06-2015, 01:39
Totally agree. At first I thought it was cool that I could get a head start but it didn't feel right. I would even max out the AI difficulty thinking it would help. hopefully this gets fixed to at least put more sensitivity on the jump start penalty.

JDFSSS
04-06-2015, 03:53
I think this should be added to the known issues thread. I don't think there's any disputing that you can consistently jump the lights and not get a penalty.

apexatspeed
07-06-2015, 21:30
I think this should be added to the known issues thread. I don't think there's any disputing that you can consistently jump the lights and not get a penalty.
I agree this should be officially recorded as a known issue.

Bouyo
08-06-2015, 01:19
Have the Mods picked up on this? Mods?

Bealdor
08-06-2015, 06:49
It's already in the Known Issues List (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22315-Known-Issues-Collective-Thread-%28PC%29-Not-for-bug-reporting!-Updated-04-06) under "Gameplay".

Mascot
08-06-2015, 07:32
On a similar theme, the 'random' time window before the lights go green should be widened a little. All starts feel the same and are very easy to predict, even though the time does vary ever so slightly. Seems like a lot of people don't even realise that the timing is actually randomised because the difference is so small.

Luke Townsend
08-06-2015, 07:39
On a similar theme, the 'random' time window before the lights go green should be widened a little. All starts feel the same and are very easy to predict, even though the time does vary ever so slightly. Seems like a lot of people don't even realise that the timing is actually randomised because the difference is so small.

+1. It adds to the tension too if you can sometimes get a long wait before the green! :) I didn't realise it is random currently till you said this.

jonny20
08-06-2015, 09:07
u can jump them without penality they need to sort that

Furnace Inferno
14-07-2015, 10:36
Just to add a bit of balance to the subject of the A.I being too slow, if like me you are using auto clutch then they are actually faster off the line than the player as the auto-clutch seems to have been purposely made terrible off the start and just bogs down as soon as you switch into gear no matter how high your revs are.

At the moment I have to jump the start to stay ahead so if they are going to make it so you can't move at all before green (which I think they should) and speed up the A.I then they need to make auto-clutch as fast as manual or close to it on the starts as right now the difference is huge, I've not played any other sim where auto-clutch users are as handicapped on race starts as in this in fact.

I would just assign a button to the clutch just for starts as when I tried it in the karts I flew off the line but then I can't have auto-clutch the rest of the time which isn't very useful, I might experiment with auto gears to see if it suffers the same issue.

EDIT: I can now select a clutch button with auto-clutch which I couldn't do before so have assigned a clutch button just for starts but it would still be nice if auto-clutch worked better so I don't have to.

Doge
14-07-2015, 11:24
Spot on. Autoclutch is poorly implemented. In this video you can see a workaround for autoclutch users to get a good start, a direct comparison with a bogged down autoclutch start, and plenty of other info about all the do's and don't's for race starts in this game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBJudzQdORs

xautos
14-07-2015, 12:07
You don't get penalized for jumping the start if you time it right. There is a window between a penalty and the green lights. Have you played this game?

ive only ever seen 2 jump starts out of 120+ races online and both case one of them was definately my own issue, was at dubai in a 12c, controlled the throttle too well and as a result it launched fast enough that i got caught by it, the other time was not of my problem, i had my foot buried to the floor during the 5 light phaseand didnt let off unlike the previous mentioned incident, it randomly assigned me to the pits.

with launch control and auto gears, if this game has it and if i knew where the bite point was to the second on the start lights i would be making mega starts every time. i used to do it a lot in f1c 99-02 between red light 2 and red light 3, most towards red light 3 is where the launch control was engaged and about 90% of the races like that was an instant rocketship.

Furnace Inferno
17-07-2015, 16:16
Spot on. Autoclutch is poorly implemented. In this video you can see a workaround for autoclutch users to get a good start, a direct comparison with a bogged down autoclutch start, and plenty of other info about all the do's and don't's for race starts in this game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBJudzQdORsThanks, that was very useful just need to switch the clutch button with the handbrake one and then I'm good to go and won't have to jump the starts.

Onikami
25-07-2015, 12:43
Why is there no penalty if you start at a red light?

OutbreakDV
25-07-2015, 20:57
BTW, has anyone got the achievement to pop for getting off the light in .2 seconds? Not sure if my reflexes really are that bad, or the achievement isn't working.

That was the first one I ever got. Unless it's been broken since the game came out it works fine.

Flaw3dGenius
25-07-2015, 23:20
Why is there no penalty if you start at a red light?

Because if you jump into first and mash the accel just before the green light the game has no idea what your upto ;)

Onikami
26-07-2015, 16:17
So it means its a bug. Ive tested to jumpstart with redlights and it doesn't do anything

AdM1
26-07-2015, 16:27
Jump starting a red gives you a pit run penalty. Are you guys playing with noob settings?

Onikami
27-07-2015, 15:35
My settings: no driving aids, full penalties and flags but still can jumpstart with red lights. It must be a bug.

AdM1
27-07-2015, 16:00
I don't think its a matter of jumping the lights, I think its the fact you can roll a foot or 2 before it gives you the penalty so if the green light lights up just as you are already moving in that 1 or 2 foot then you manage to avoid the penalty.

Jumping a red gives a penalty. The bug is that you can move a few feet without it activating the pit run penalty.