PDA

View Full Version : Penalties don't make sense



JohnyHerbertLovesCake
04-06-2015, 23:20
Been trying to persevere with online races but there's too many idiots and the way penalties are handed out isn't adequate enough or just doesn't make sense. The first few corners of ever race are like a lottery and render qualifying next to pointless. In fact, starting anywhere near the front is likely to be far more detrimental than being in the middle and picking your way through the carnage. Often, how the first few corners pan out will determine the likely outcome of the race. And that's if you make it to the first corner without hitting the slow starters and spinners.

The answer shouldn't be 'join a racing league' because for several reasons it's not always practical or convenient.

I'm willing to bet most people experience some of these every race:


at the start a car, or cars, either doesn't pull away, is extremely slow to start or veers off to one side hitting others.
hit from behind with enough force to do damage (especially at the first corner)
sent wide, off-track, damaged or dropped places because of first corner stupidity
car behind fly's down the inside too fast, hits you, and forces you wide or off the track. They often gain or send you both back several places.
someone gets bored and decides to park their car on the racing line or actively try's to hit you
you try to pass someone down a straight and they weave around to block you or push you off the track
at some point you've been hit and the steering veers to one side


None of these result in a penalty, that is unless the byproduct is one of you cutting the track. And what follows that is one or more slow cars on the track that can cause even more problems.

I know that certain situations are impossible to police accurately but some seem simple. It can't be hard to work out when a car is hit, especially from behind, with more force than a nudge, or when a car is ahead going in to a corner before heavy contact, or when you're being forced off the track by another car, or when a car isn't completing laps and instead blocking corners. After all, they've managed all the number crunching to create a simulation racing game so a few penalty algorithms can't be beyond reason.

Nicho Lucas Dad
05-06-2015, 02:28
Well said Johny, the idiots you mention should stick to Mario Karts on the Wii.

HarryHoodlum
05-06-2015, 03:01
Well said Johny, the idiots you mention should stick to Mario Karts on the Wii.

Sadly, if people are given the opportunity to do bad without consequence, many of them will take it.

The devs can only do so much IMO. It's up to the community to make it work.

SpecialForcesST6
05-06-2015, 04:51
Been trying to persevere with online races but there's too many idiots and the way penalties are handed out isn't adequate enough or just doesn't make sense. The first few corners of ever race are like a lottery and render qualifying next to pointless. In fact, starting anywhere near the front is likely to be far more detrimental than being in the middle and picking your way through the carnage. Often, how the first few corners pan out will determine the likely outcome of the race. And that's if you make it to the first corner without hitting the slow starters and spinners.

The answer shouldn't be 'join a racing league' because for several reasons it's not always practical or convenient.

I'm willing to bet most people experience some of these every race:


at the start a car, or cars, either doesn't pull away, is extremely slow to start or veers off to one side hitting others.
hit from behind with enough force to do damage (especially at the first corner)
sent wide, off-track, damaged or dropped places because of first corner stupidity
car behind fly's down the inside too fast, hits you, and forces you wide or off the track. They often gain or send you both back several places.
someone gets bored and decides to park their car on the racing line or actively try's to hit you
you try to pass someone down a straight and they weave around to block you or push you off the track
at some point you've been hit and the steering veers to one side


None of these result in a penalty, that is unless the byproduct is one of you cutting the track. And what follows that is one or more slow cars on the track that can cause even more problems.

I know that certain situations are impossible to police accurately but some seem simple. It can't be hard to work out when a car is hit, especially from behind, with more force than a nudge, or when a car is ahead going in to a corner before heavy contact, or when you're being forced off the track by another car, or when a car isn't completing laps and instead blocking corners. After all, they've managed all the number crunching to create a simulation racing game so a few penalty algorithms can't be beyond reason.

Not that you want to hear this, but it is well known that console racing has always been like this. You can make the game as "sim" as you want it (and project cars is pretty sim) but the crowd that plays on console lean more to arcade racing. It will ALWAY be like this.

If you want clean online racing there is ONLY ONE place to get that....and that is Iracing. Once you get out of "rookie" class in Iracing you will get relatively clean racing with the occasional headache race.
Iracing is your best and really only place to race online with relatively clean races. You don't have to join any leagues or anything just the pickup races which count for points. I would check it out. It isn't even cpu intensive either so if you have a normal desktop it should suffice. www.racing.com.

lordymatsuo
05-06-2015, 11:20
It sucks in public lobbies, join a clean racing community it's the only way currently to get clean fair races. We race evry night with full 16 player grids

JohnyHerbertLovesCake
05-06-2015, 13:35
Not that you want to hear this, but it is well known that console racing has always been like this. You can make the game as "sim" as you want it (and project cars is pretty sim) but the crowd that plays on console lean more to arcade racing. It will ALWAY be like this.

If you want clean online racing there is ONLY ONE place to get that....and that is Iracing. Once you get out of "rookie" class in Iracing you will get relatively clean racing with the occasional headache race.
Iracing is your best and really only place to race online with relatively clean races. You don't have to join any leagues or anything just the pickup races which count for points. I would check it out. It isn't even cpu intensive either so if you have a normal desktop it should suffice. www.racing.com.

My days of being hunched over a desk in a dimly lit room fiddling with settings and upgrading hardware are long gone. Even though my laptop can handle it I much rather console gaming. I take your point that on console you're more likely to come across casual gamers (and annoying kids) but I wouldn't say it's the fundamental reason for the problems online. As far as I know you still have to brake for corners and avoid contact in arcade games. Many of the people on console are also just as likely to have come from pc gaming, as I did, or still play on pc.

A game like iracing will inherently attract the more serious gamer with steering wheel setups and such, which naturally leads to a more mature approach to playing. There's also the facility on PC to pick and choose which servers to play on so makes finding good games much easier. You said yourself that it takes moving out of rookie to find clean racing, it's that type of ranking system that project cars could benefit from.

As HarryHoodlum said, given the opportunity and without consequence people will act like dicks. And I also agree that the devs can only do so much but as it stands they haven't done nearly enough. There isn't even a rudimentary system for categorizing a players ability or recent form. It's actually quite ironic that a community driven game like this hasn't got the tools to help the community encourage fair play.:nonchalance:

HarryHoodlum
05-06-2015, 13:51
@SpecialForces, Generalize much? Watched an hour of iRacing on Twitch and all I saw was crashing. I'm glad you like your PC, but get a clue.

JohnyHerbertLovesCake
05-06-2015, 14:33
It sucks in public lobbies, join a clean racing community it's the only way currently to get clean fair races. We race evry night with full 16 player grids

I actually joined your league a couple of days ago but haven't had the chance to have a go yet. Be good if SMS could integrate leagues in to the actual game at some point.

Thing is leagues are more like another facet to the game rather than a solution. For myself, and I suspect others, they aren't always practical or convenient. I don't always want long races with all aids off, or to use specific cars, or go to certain tracks, or play at specific times. So even though leagues have there place they shouldn't be seen as the only way to play otherwise in a few months they'll be far fewer people online.

KK78
05-06-2015, 19:58
While the community has to contribute in the right way to online multiplayer I think that the game should have penalties for the idiots and sadly PCars is not the 1st game to miss a more rigorous system. Surely (a proper dev will tell me if I'm wrong) but if the game can detect when you are off track it can also detect when you are stationary, going the wrong way or have had 2-3 major shunts (and indeed what angle they were at) and use this to either ghost cars out or eject repeat offenders from the lobby. As an example Driveclub did pretty much this so if you drive the wrong way it resets you, if you stop dead you ghost out and if you ram others you will be slowed to a crawl for several seconds meaning the person you just whacked will be long gone- the net result in DC is now there is far less of that rubbish going on.

tmitch45
05-06-2015, 20:40
To the op your right open lobby is a pain which is why most of us do as you say and either join a racing league or a clean racing group. It really is the only way to get proper close and fair racing with people who want to win but at the same time will respect you. Years ago I was about to give up with GT5 as the single didn't interest me and every time I played open lobby I just got smashed around. I then joined a league and it was like night and day. The people I was racing respected me and pretty much the only time I crashed as of my own accord. But better than that the other drivers helped me with my techniques and car setups which made me a better driver. There are loads of leagues and clubs on here, the best thing is check some out and see whats the best fit for you. Some are about all out performance and the championship, if this is too serious for you, you might want to look at some of the groups who just race together a few times a week.

Back to your question I think too much or too heavy penalties could ruin the game as a computer game only views incidents as black and white where as a human interprets a situation. The penalty for leaving the track is a good point. If one car pushes another off track a human would see that one car pushed another off and not give a penalty where as the computer would just see that a car has gone off therefore it needs a penalty. Like with car collisions its very difficult for a computer to interpret who is at fault if one car hits another. If a car crashes into the back of the car in front who is at fault? Has the car in front slammed on the brakes on purpose or is the car driving too fast and trying to knock the other car off track?? The only way is to join a group with respectful humans and/or organisers who will marshal events or give out penalties post race. With the people who I choose to race with I have zero problems.

Slicker_VR
05-06-2015, 23:03
Not that you want to hear this, but it is well known that console racing has always been like this. You can make the game as "sim" as you want it (and project cars is pretty sim) but the crowd that plays on console lean more to arcade racing. It will ALWAY be like this.

If you want clean online racing there is ONLY ONE place to get that....and that is Iracing. Once you get out of "rookie" class in Iracing you will get relatively clean racing with the occasional headache race.
Iracing is your best and really only place to race online with relatively clean races. You don't have to join any leagues or anything just the pickup races which count for points. I would check it out. It isn't even cpu intensive either so if you have a normal desktop it should suffice. www.racing.com.

if iracing is so great why are you on pcars forum??? i'm getting sick of reading posts saying how iracing is the dog's wotsits - if it is then why not go and play it and stop spamming the pcars forum?

xXDoc187Xx
06-06-2015, 03:54
Not that you want to hear this, but it is well known that console racing has always been like this. You can make the game as "sim" as you want it (and project cars is pretty sim) but the crowd that plays on console lean more to arcade racing. It will ALWAY be like this.

If you want clean online racing there is ONLY ONE place to get that....and that is Iracing. Once you get out of "rookie" class in Iracing you will get relatively clean racing with the occasional headache race.
Iracing is your best and really only place to race online with relatively clean races.

I never LoLed so hard in my life, I had 6 month free of iracing courtesy Cadillac and it was the worse experience ever. You say iracing is the best place for clean racing but you gotta make it out of the rookie class, which is impossible with all the morons on there , who in the right mind would want to pay a monthly subscription to deal with the headache that is the rookie class ? Then only way out that class is winning ,getting a podium finish and wait for it , a high safety rating So don't blame the console crowd when the PC crowd ain't even better.

gotdirt410sprintcar
06-06-2015, 05:49
I think for online racing there should be a second docked on your time if you cut everytime. Now I know in racing we try to use as much track as we can but there still needs to be a rule. So to me this should be put in a game like this grass touched should be a penalty, places like the glen at the bus stop you have curb then some concrete after. if three tires touch curb concrete should be a penalty and different tracks where there is curb green paint same goes for there two. Just needs to be a rule and that should fix the cutting and cheating.

MadjottaX
06-06-2015, 13:49
I find it very unfair vc run online making it possible to get the best lap and be hindered by slow someone on the track or corridor that was penalized and simply in front. It would be much fairer than to suffer a penalty instead of stopping on the track the hallway had penalized the penalty time added to his final time and thus losing positions at the end of the race and instead filled racing accidents were the ghost car option to prevent accidental and malicious touches, I think that would make a lot more interesting races because the only way to have fairer racing is creating a lob and running only with friends.

JohnyHerbertLovesCake
06-06-2015, 22:32
Back to your question I think too much or too heavy penalties could ruin the game as a computer game only views incidents as black and white where as a human interprets a situation. The penalty for leaving the track is a good point. If one car pushes another off track a human would see that one car pushed another off and not give a penalty where as the computer would just see that a car has gone off therefore it needs a penalty. Like with car collisions its very difficult for a computer to interpret who is at fault if one car hits another. If a car crashes into the back of the car in front who is at fault? Has the car in front slammed on the brakes on purpose or is the car driving too fast and trying to knock the other car off track?? The only way is to join a group with respectful humans and/or organisers who will marshal events or give out penalties post race. With the people who I choose to race with I have zero problems.

Certain situations will always be too ambiguous for the developers to accurately determine who is at fault, especially when more than two cars are involved. But that's not to say they haven't the data to cover other incidents. They've managed to create a simulation racing game where the cars physical characteristics, speed, positions on track, weather, track surface, etc interact with each other. To then take a higher level view of a cars general position and telemetry in comparison to another and use it to work out penalties doesn't seem overly ambitious. All the telemetry data is already there. I wouldn't want to see penalties handed out too easily like the harsh way lap times are currently invalidated, but more can be done.

Personally, these seem easy to work out

hit another car up the backside going in to a braking zone - get a penalty. Take a different racing line if you're that close but can't get ahead before the corner.
intentionally brake going down a straight and hit from behind - get a penalty. You shouldn't be braking down a straight, especially with cars behind.
car is stationary on-track - ghost and DQ them after a specific time (10 second timer seems adequate?). They remain a ghost for a short period after moving to prevent them getting in others way.
car is moving but slowly and erratic and hasn't completed a sector or lap in a generous amount of time - DQ. Obviously heavily damaged cars would be taken in to consideration.


These ones are little more complex but still seem doable

car A is ahead going in to a corner, car B carry's too much speed up the inside and hits car A with enough force to send them wide or off - car B gets a penalty.
car A goes around the outside and is side-by-side or passing car B, car B pushes them off the track - car B gets a penalty
car A is side-by-side or passing car B down a straight, car B turns in to car A and tries to force them off - car B gets a penalty


A penalty could mean a variety of measures such as a simple warning, penalty points, time added, drive through, stop-and-go or DQ. Slowing the car for x amount of seconds, as with corner cutting, would be fine if it ghosted so others don't run the risk of hitting them.

Varying points could be assigned depending on the penalty type and if you accumulate enough points against you the consequence is far more severe. For instance, nudge someone and it's a warning. Cutting the corner is a ghosted time delay and warning. Three warnings is a drive through or time added. Crash in to the back of someone and it's more than just a warning; a time delay or time added maybe.

All of this really doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility right?

siemens123
08-06-2015, 14:33
penalties are a pain in the a$$ in game. i barely touch the dirt on a curb and i am penalized with Lap not counted in qualifications , also i get hit from behind by someone and sent into the dirt, i get a warning. not to mention that sometimes u'r forced to take a corner on dirt (barely on dirt) because of the nr of cars that try to pass u or u try to avoid them kamikazes right after the start and u get a time penalty for no reason.