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grimdanfango
05-06-2015, 00:58
I'm trying to get my head around exactly what Scoop and Soft Clipping do to the overall force feedback signal. I get the impression that both of them effectively amount to filters that take a 0.0 - 1.0 input range (or 0.0 to x.x soft clipping), and bend it into a different shape within a 0.0 - 1.0 output range. Does that just about sum it up?

Is anyone able to actually draw some kind of example graphs to give some idea what's happening? I get the feeling that scoop is somewhat similar to a gamma function, lowering the overall level, while still allowing 1.0 forces to remain at 1.0 I've no real idea how the "knee" plays into it though.

Soft Clipping confuses the hell out of me. To read the explanation, I would presume setting Half Input to 0.5, and Full Input to 1.0, should map 0.5-to-0.5, and 1.0-to-1.0, effectively not changing the input signal at all, but if I do that, it makes the wheel feel incredibly heavy with a constant really strong centering force, compared to when Soft Clipping is entirely turned off (0.0 and 0.0) where it feels light and detailed. (I realise there's a bug in there where you can't turn it back to 0.0/0.0 without doing a "reset", I've been comparing it to the true off-state)

Does Half Input represent a multiplier of 0.5 rather than an explicit value or something? Am I barking up entirely the wrong tree with all of this?

Ideally I'd just really like some visual enterpretation of what's going on. I find it so much more informative to see a graph rather than trying to interpret a vague written description of some hidden mathematical function :-)

klhnikov
05-06-2015, 08:49
Same question with deadzone removal range from 0 to 1 and deadzone removal Faloff from 0 to 0.1...
Is the second one a factor of the first ?

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 09:32
Unless SMS give us a manual this confusion will continue, and more posts added to the forum as new players buy the game.
Mr Bell basically told me all we needed was on the forum and to go away and be quiet and spend hours reading opposing thoughts on the setting SMS coded.

Love the game but some thing to read and go through in a logical manner would be a vast improvement.

S

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 10:35
Try this guys....

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=958100&viewfull=1#post958100

206251

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 10:46
Try this guys....

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=958100&viewfull=1#post958100

205871

Thanks Roger
Tried this, as clear as mud !
Unfortunatly i think its very hard for you WMD members to understand what its like if you are totally new to this stuff, but keen to learn in a logical manner.
Even the guys at inside sim racing made video which im sure youve seen and said they have no idea of what most of it means !

Any ways thanks for your input.

S

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 12:28
Thanks Roger
Tried this, as clear as mud !
Unfortunatly i think its very hard for you WMD members to understand what its like if you are totally new to this stuff, but keen to learn in a logical manner.
Even the guys at inside sim racing made video which im sure youve seen and said they have no idea of what most of it means !

Any ways thanks for your input.

S
I do understand your point, and believe me we are still trying to understand some of it ourselves.
It's just very difficult to put some of these things into layman's terms.

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 12:41
I do understand your point, and believe me we are still trying to understand some of it ourselves.
It's just very difficult to put some of these things into layman's terms.

An answer ! but surely the devs understand it, or why code it ?

Surely some one in authority can at least begin a manual, with some explanations and possibly some diagrams. Ie going down the settings and menus in a logical order. It can allways be edited and will have a long shelf life so must be worth a devs input. If its done right im sure the forum members could contribute ideas but only edited by a mod or dev.

Im sure if Ian Bells new car had all these settings for the steering wheel, without a manual it would still be in the showroom or wrapped round a lampost "lol"

S

ibby
05-06-2015, 13:04
Soft Clipping:
http://www.ableplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Graph-04.png

Scoop:
http://johnpetrucci.com/images/gear/boogie_graphic.jpg

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 13:08
Soft Clipping:
http://www.ableplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Graph-04.png

Scoop:
http://johnpetrucci.com/images/gear/boogie_graphic.jpg
How exactly does this help ?

Westbeef
05-06-2015, 13:25
How exactly does this help ?

It gives me the impression that a maximum soft clipping will extend the function to be much smoother but slower, hard clipping makes the function happen quicker but in a much less smooth manner. Somewhere in between will give the desired output, soft clipping helps to reduce distortion at the top of the wave. I assume the top of the wave in this case would be when FFB is at it's highest point (where you feel it the most).

In terms of FFB I assume it effects the smoothness of feedback transmissions through the wheel. But then I'm just guessing and that's how I'm understanding the graph.

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 13:30
It gives me the impression that a maximum soft clipping will extend the function to be much smoother but slower, hard clipping makes the function happen quicker but in a much less smooth manner. Somewhere in between will give the desired output.

In terms of FFB I assume it effects the smoothness of feedback transmissions through the wheel. But then I'm just guessing and that's how I'm understanding the graph.

Lets not continue this with more guessing, or individual settings comments!

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 13:33
Maybe SMS could employ Jack Spade to write a manual as he appears to have a good understanding of all things FFB.

Jack Spade
05-06-2015, 14:29
Soft clipping acts like a dynamic compressor, loud signals get softer soft signals get louder, the dynamic range gets compressed,
thatīs the basic principle. Half Input is the ratio of compression, low values = more compression. Full output is the makeup gain,
low values = more output + clipping (should be above 1.0)
Simple example, letīs say you compress the input by 30%, loud signals get 30% softer, now you can increase the output the same
amount (makeup gain) result, loud signals as before and soft signals increased by 30%. High compression ratios lead to smoothed
out FFB feel so handle with care.

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 14:52
Like I said it's not easy to explain in simple layman's terms.

Andrew_WOT
05-06-2015, 15:00
I do understand your point, and believe me we are still trying to understand some of it ourselves.
It's just very difficult to put some of these things into layman's terms.

Any chance we'll see simplified feedback settings GUI in the future with reasonable, working out of the box defaults?
Very little reason except for the benefit of very few individuals to expose guts of the system to ordinary user, even with the most sophisticated and complex system.
Why not embed reasonable default settings and leave tinkering ability to cfg files if anyone really, really wants it. Pretty much every similators (racing game) on the market, some even with arguably better FFB, get away with just 3 - 5 sliders with meaningful names.
What we see today is that after frustrating efforts to tweak all 37 params, users just give up and use Jack's files or pdf with predefined config settings for console, having no clue what these individual settings are.
Even Darin in his video review mentioned that "no clue what this does but the "guy" recommended to set it to xxxx"
Don't SMS recognize that this is actually a problem?

grimdanfango
05-06-2015, 15:17
Thanks Jack, I'm still not too clear, but starting to get some idea.

So there's really no 1:1 approximation of the input signal the moment you have Soft Clipping enabled, correct?

I'm trying to work out how to even put into words what I'm unsure about. I roughed up a graph to try and convey it:
http://*******.com/onztfop
- for the regular input x (blue line)... the red line is a very hacky attempt to guess at the sort of thing a 0.5 half input might be causing - it would match 0.5, but would cause a big bulge in the lower values? (I don't suppose the upper end is doing anything like my graph here, presumably it would plateau at a certain point)
The green line is something like what I'd like to achieve. Is that remotely possible using soft clipping? From your detailed FFB explanation post, it sounds like a half-input value of 1.0 would match the input slope at zero the same way it does here... if that's the case, what effect is the full-input value having on the overall shape? Does it scale the entire range - ie, do higher values of full-input effectively change what the half-input represents, and thus skew the lower values as well as the higher ones? Or does it only affect the shape of the graph past the half-input point?

I suppose what I'm looking for is the most "neutral" starting point to work from, and some idea in what way the two numbers will cause the shape to deviate from that point.

grimdanfango
05-06-2015, 15:25
Like I said it's not easy to explain in simple layman's terms.

This was sort of my point from the start. Trying to "explain" it, in laymans terms, or with full mathematical notation, is always going to either be difficult for the person explaining, or the person reading.
A picture is worth a thousand words though... if the devs, or anyone in the know, could just draw us a couple of graphs showing what a selection of different values actually does to the input values, we wouldn't need it explaining, we'd have a visual reference.

Jack has certainly come the closest to conveying key information clearly - the fact that at 1.0 half-input, the slope is maintained at zero, conveys something explicit about the shape of the graph at one end of the input range. I'm just hazy about what the rest of the graph would look like given any particular values.

Thanks to everyone who's trying to put this into words, it's appreciated.

I reckon it'd be ideal if the devs drew us a few pretty pictures though. I think it could really help clear things up.

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 15:27
Soft clipping acts like a dynamic compressor, loud signals get softer soft signals get louder, the dynamic range gets compressed,
thatīs the basic principle. Half Input is the ratio of compression, low values = more compression. Full output is the makeup gain,
low values = more output + clipping (should be above 1.0)
Simple example, letīs say you compress the input by 30%, loud signals get 30% softer, now you can increase the output the same
amount (makeup gain) result, loud signals as before and soft signals increased by 30%. High compression ratios lead to smoothed
out FFB feel so handle with care.

As i said Jack understands, i understand the above, and this is not one of the more fundemental setting like mx blah blah.
SMS need to employ Jack to work with a DEV to go through all the setting starting with the confused menus and give us a manual to read and understand. This SIM will hopefully be around for a long time and before it gets our of control some proper documentation needs to done from a newbies point of view, so we all become our own Jack Spades and in control of our destiny and enjoy this Sim to its best.

( Great respect to Jack)

Would it not be great to see reviews saying "groundbreaking game, ground breaking documentation making a complicated SIM accessible to learn and enjoy at its best"

S

Roger Prynne
05-06-2015, 15:59
I think the '206277' explains it quite well IMO... providing you read it all, especially from the beginning with the examples.
Also I don't think that graphs are going to do much good at all.... or even if they could do graphs for all the different settings, as the combinations are vast.
You just have to experiment to get it to feel the way you want it to.

Jack Spade
05-06-2015, 16:08
Thanks Jack, I'm still not too clear, but starting to get some idea.

So there's really no 1:1 approximation of the input signal the moment you have Soft Clipping enabled, correct?

I'm trying to work out how to even put into words what I'm unsure about. I roughed up a graph to try and convey it:
http://*******.com/onztfop
- for the regular input x (blue line)... the red line is a very hacky attempt to guess at the sort of thing a 0.5 half input might be causing - it would match 0.5, but would cause a big bulge in the lower values? (I don't suppose the upper end is doing anything like my graph here, presumably it would plateau at a certain point)
The green line is something like what I'd like to achieve. Is that remotely possible using soft clipping? From your detailed FFB explanation post, it sounds like a half-input value of 1.0 would match the input slope at zero the same way it does here... if that's the case, what effect is the full-input value having on the overall shape? Does it scale the entire range - ie, do higher values of full-input effectively change what the half-input represents, and thus skew the lower values as well as the higher ones? Or does it only affect the shape of the graph past the half-input point?

I suppose what I'm looking for is the most "neutral" starting point to work from, and some idea in what way the two numbers will cause the shape to deviate from that point.

I used to work with audio compressors, these things have a level meter where you can read the amount of gain reduction corresponding to the compression ratio and the attack
and release times. Reading an average gain reduction on the meter of -4db tells you, you can increase the makeup gain +4db, besides judging the effect of it thatīs all. Unfortunately
the game has no level meter, you simply have to feel the effect in your hands. (db = decibel) On the first page of my thread I have 4 different compression variations from heavy to
moderate, take it from there.

grimdanfango
05-06-2015, 16:41
I used to work with audio compressors, these things have a level meter where you can read the amount of gain reduction corresponding to the compression ratio and the attack
and release times. Reading an average gain reduction on the meter of -4db tells you, you can increase the makeup gain +4db, besides judging the effect of it thatīs all. Unfortunately
the game has no level meter, you simply have to feel the effect in your hands. (db = decibel) On the first page of my thread I have 4 different compression variations from heavy to
moderate, take it from there.

Ah, somehow hadn't spotted the specific soft-clipping section before - must have gone through your post 10 times over too :-)

I suspect I'm thinking about all this in a rather too "colour-intensity"-centric way... coming from the visual effects industry. Seems it has more in common with audio signal processing, which I have never really been able to get my head around.

I'll give your recommended profiles a shot then.
Thanks again for all your help!

Liquid_Drummer
05-06-2015, 17:05
Soft clipping acts like a dynamic compressor, loud signals get softer soft signals get louder, the dynamic range gets compressed,
thatīs the basic principle. Half Input is the ratio of compression, low values = more compression. Full output is the makeup gain,
low values = more output + clipping (should be above 1.0)
Simple example, letīs say you compress the input by 30%, loud signals get 30% softer, now you can increase the output the same
amount (makeup gain) result, loud signals as before and soft signals increased by 30%. High compression ratios lead to smoothed
out FFB feel so handle with care.

I take it you have some recording/audio engineering experience ? This is totally analogous to audio. You could in effect adjust force feedback as you would an multi-band eq. I wish the gui was presented like a parametric eq. No names needed just dial in different parts of the frequency spectrum until you like it. Use VU meters to avoid clipping ! It also sounds like the less compression the better just like in audio recording.

Jack Spade
05-06-2015, 17:20
Any chance we'll see simplified feedback settings GUI in the future with reasonable, working out of the box defaults?
Very little reason except for the benefit of very few individuals to expose guts of the system to ordinary user, even with the most sophisticated and complex system.
Why not embed reasonable default settings and leave tinkering ability to cfg files if anyone really, really wants it. Pretty much every similators (racing game) on the market, some even with arguably better FFB, get away with just 3 - 5 sliders with meaningful names.
What we see today is that after frustrating efforts to tweak all 37 params, users just give up and use Jack's files or pdf with predefined config settings for console, having no clue what these individual settings are.
Even Darin in his video review mentioned that "no clue what this does but the "guy" recommended to set it to xxxx"
Don't SMS recognize that this is actually a problem?

First of all you should realize this FFB systems contains 2 stages, 1. the car setup menu, 2. the global wheel preset menu.
The car setup is the physics stage which is universal no matter what wheel. Stage 2 is dealing with the construction of
the individual wheel. In all other games you only have stage 2, makes it pretty easy to have something working out of
the box. SMS has decided to normalize the individual car settings, so the user can make his own decisions. Actually I donīt
know what would have happened in the WMD forum if SMS had decided to use my settings as FFB default but I can imagine
some would have gone to the barricades.

Liquid_Drummer
05-06-2015, 17:27
I like a slightly exaggerated loss of front end grip where the wheel can get pretty light. WHat is the best way to achieve this across the board ? Running a Fanatec Gt2. RIght now using a high drift mode to remove damping.

Andrew_WOT
05-06-2015, 17:32
First of all you should realize this FFB systems contains 2 stages, 1. the car setup menu, 2. the global wheel preset menu.
The car setup is the physics stage which is universal no matter what wheel. Stage 2 is dealing with the construction of
the individual wheel. In all other games you only have stage 2, makes it pretty easy to have something working out of
the box. SMS has decided to normalize the individual car settings, so the user can make his own decisions. Actually I donīt
know what would have happened in the WMD forum if SMS had decided to use my settings as FFB default but I can imagine
some would have gone to the barricades.
LOL to that :D
Actually some games (AC) have individual car FFB settings, but it's just gain and damper, everything else derived from particular car physics model based on current setup, tires, road condition, etc..

Jack Spade
05-06-2015, 17:37
I like a slightly exaggerated loss of front end grip where the wheel can get pretty light. WHat is the best way to achieve this across the board ? Running a Fanatec Gt2. RIght now using a high drift mode to remove damping.

I answered to that more than once so here is a copy.


Under steering = small amount of grip loss front tires, wheel should slightly feel lighter, right? Maximum grip loss, locking tires under heavy braking = maximum lightness on the wheel.
Take this as reference. Thereīs only a small window in the range of 45°-90° wheel turning angle where you sometimes feel it slightly lighter, a very subtle effect which immediately gets
covered up by side load forces. The 66% SopLateral version has much less Fy so the FFB character specially in the range of 45°-120° turning angle is more dynamic giving Mz a bit more space,
in my opinion this is as close you can get. Note, angles depend on steering ratio, this is a GT car example.
Also note, increasing or decreasing this or that donīt help anything itīs the ratio that matters.

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 17:44
First of all you should realize this FFB systems contains 2 stages, 1. the car setup menu, 2. the global wheel preset menu.
The car setup is the physics stage which is universal no matter what wheel. Stage 2 is dealing with the construction of
the individual wheel. In all other games you only have stage 2, makes it pretty easy to have something working out of
the box. SMS has decided to normalize the individual car settings, so the user can make his own decisions. Actually I donīt
know what would have happened in the WMD forum if SMS had decided to use my settings as FFB default but I can imagine
some would have gone to the barricades.

Jack youve done a great job
So SMS have decided to give us 37 decisions to make, empower us SMS to use all these with a manual !
Every step, what the setting mean in your best words. You coded it help us out with the help of Jack and others to produce a good document for now and the future.
Im sure im getting boring now and dont want to get banned !

" If Ians new car had 37 options on the steering wheel without a clue what they did: still in showroom or wrapping on lampost ! (lol)

S

Jack Spade
05-06-2015, 18:09
Jack youve done a great job
So SMS have decided to give us 37 decisions to make, empower us SMS to use all these with a manual !
Every step, what the setting mean in your best words. You coded it help us out with the help of Jack and others to produce a good document for now and the future.
Im sure im getting boring now and dont want to get banned !

" If Ians new car had 37 options on the steering wheel without a clue what they did: still in showroom or wrapping on lampost ! (lol)

S

Thanks for having trust in me but hereīs an easy answer. Take any of the sets of files, run a decent global wheel preset setting, continue the carrier, enjoy the game and forget about any
manuals to be written in the future.:)

Sanuck
05-06-2015, 18:57
Thanks for having trust in me but hereīs an easy answer. Take any of the sets of files, run a decent global wheel preset setting, continue the carrier, enjoy the game and forget about any
manuals to be written in the future.:)
Thanks Jack
I will accept defeat and learn to live in the dark. I have knobs but cant play with them cos ive been told no one knows what they do.

Thank you for your time .

S

Jack Spade
06-06-2015, 08:50
Thanks Jack
I will accept defeat and learn to live in the dark. I have knobs but cant play with them cos ive been told no one knows what they do.

Thank you for your time .

S

If itīs any comfort to you, youīre not alone me included.

Sanuck
06-06-2015, 09:31
If itīs any comfort to you, youīre not alone me included.

Thanks Jack that is a comfort.
I am spending the day trying your tweakers, so far so good.
I have a new DFGT, probably have some questions for you later, if you dont mind !

Where shall i post them ?

Cheers
Sanuck

Jack Spade
06-06-2015, 15:11
Thanks Jack that is a comfort.
I am spending the day trying your tweakers, so far so good.
I have a new DFGT, probably have some questions for you later, if you dont mind !

Where shall i post them ?

Cheers
Sanuck

My thread.

Sanuck
06-06-2015, 15:25
My thread.

You got your own thread ! "lol" have you ever wondered how many PCs have a folder in your name !
Spooky