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F1Aussie
06-06-2015, 03:22
Hi All
Just putting it out there for discussion. Would be interested to know what you all think.

I personally think yes and no. I find I can be a more aggressive driver now, when I never used to be. I will also at times go for gaps in traffic that I never would have previously, I don't find I am doing it on purpose though, it seems to be instinct.

I reckon reflexes are definitely better though. About 4 weeks ago when driving home from work in fading light a woman came out of a side street directly into my path, I hit the anchors and swerved at the same time to avoid her, luckily. In the past I may have hit her and would no doubt have parked on the side of the road and hyperventilated. That evening I just shaked my first at her and kept driving then vented when I got home.

What do you all think?

Cheers
F1A

Rambo_Commando
06-06-2015, 03:36
My honest opinion is no. There is no racing game that teaches you proper defensive driving techniques.

kjay
06-06-2015, 03:46
Hi All
Just putting it out there for discussion. Would be interested to know what you all think.

I personally think yes and no. I find I can be a more aggressive driver now, when I never used to be. I will also at times go for gaps in traffic that I never would have previously, I don't find I am doing it on purpose though, it seems to be instinct.

I reckon reflexes are definitely better though. About 4 weeks ago when driving home from work in fading light a woman came out of a side street directly into my path, I hit the anchors and swerved at the same time to avoid her, luckily. In the past I may have hit her and would no doubt have parked on the side of the road and hyperventilated. That evening I just shaked my first at her and kept driving then vented when I got home.

What do you all think?

Cheers
F1A

My thought is that race sims can make you a better driver but for completely different reasons.
Most people, when in a sim tend to overdrive quite a bit. This results in many collision with walls, cars and other objects. In real life these incidents can or would be deadly.
As a result we become more aware of how easily one can get into a situation that they can't control.
I used to be a very aggressive/wreckless driver when I was younger. I am now a much safer driver on the road. I save the hard driving for the sim.

LiveWire
06-06-2015, 03:52
I agree with the OP. I think it helps with reflexes and being more attentive, but I also find myself feeling too comfortable with smaller gaps. I almost got sideswiped by a semi on the freeway, he wasn't maintaining his lane and was at least 10mph above the speed limit. It was less than a foot between the sides of the vehicles and it should have been a bigger deal to me. Wife and kids were very scared though.

Racing games don't teach defensive driving, that isn't their purpose. They do teach some basic skills though such as countering a slide and braking. I even taught myself to left foot brake, which might have prevented an accident. A ladder rack fell off of a pickup truck in front of me on the freeway, the fraction of a second that it would have take to move my right foot to the brake could have been the difference.

Sounds like I need to stay off the freeway though...

Awong124
06-06-2015, 03:52
I think it makes you better at the track.

JeyD02
06-06-2015, 04:40
My honest opinion is no. There is no racing game that teaches you proper defensive driving techniques.

I would have to disagree with this.

madmax2069
06-06-2015, 04:47
Yes and no.

PC49NZ
06-06-2015, 05:44
I am sure it does.

It teaches a driver to expect the unexpected ( reading what drivers say happens with AI drivers!!), It shows what can happen when travelling to fast, especially into corners. Actually when you think about it the list goes on.

Yes, I believe it can teach a lot to younger drivers. Of course all the teaching and advice to idiots will never change them.

A good question.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 05:52
Better on a track. Nothing in a racing sim applies to standard road driving

PC49NZ
06-06-2015, 06:35
Sorry Toxic but I disagree with you. As I mentioned, speed into corners and the many other things that can go wrong. Driving on a wet road and above all concentration. If you don't concentrate with what's in front of you, problems instantly. I noticed this with this particular Sim. The graphic's are so good I find I can glance away to have a quick look and there goes your concentration.

The above points, speed into corners, poor wet weather driving (and tyre conditions) and above all CONCENTATION are all elements that are the cause of many accidents.

For new young drivers, learning, these points are so important.

stux
06-06-2015, 06:47
Better on a track. Nothing in a racing sim applies to standard road driving

I disagree too. I've found that in hairy situations I've automatically done things I learnt in the sims, for example, countering a slide in the rain after avoiding an idiot.

I've always been a fast, but defensive driver, trying to expect the unexpected, and granted a sim won't teach you defenesive driving, but it can teach some advanced skills and awareness.


And now for something different, if you're awesome at a sim but have never been behind a real cars wheel, can you race on a real circuit?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sCrM1CcI

Yes, if you can get over the motion sickness...

Umer Ahmad
06-06-2015, 07:14
"SIM will not teach defensive driving"

Are you guys nuts ?!? Have you even tried to survive 1-lap online multiplayer? Haha, I AM THE BEST DRIVER IN CHICAGO NOW! Thanks project cars!

Seriously, if you can dodge these mmmmm.... "Less good" drivers online you'll be all set fighting off these NYC/CHI taxi drivers.

I think definitely these sims are good practice for real driving, on or off track. I was thinking to mself SMS should make a mod used for teaching students to drive.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 07:22
I don't think so. I think the arguments for countering slides and defensive driving are poor. I can already counter a slide (to the severity you would experience on a public road) and there are so many idiots on the roads these days that real world defense is already pretty good.

It without a doubt can make you more agressive if you let it, and that isn't good.

MysterG
06-06-2015, 07:42
Moved to Off Topic

Toxic
06-06-2015, 07:46
L
Sorry Toxic but I disagree with you. As I mentioned, speed into corners and the many other things that can go wrong. Driving on a wet road and above all concentration. If you don't concentrate with what's in front of you, problems instantly. I noticed this with this particular Sim. The graphic's are so good I find I can glance away to have a quick look and there goes your concentration.

The above points, speed into corners, poor wet weather driving (and tyre conditions) and above all CONCENTATION are all elements that are the cause of many accidents.

For new young drivers, learning, these points are so important.

Speed into corners? On a public road? If your not sure about cornering speed on a real road you should not be going fast enough where speed is ever going to be an issue, especially when you have no idea what's around that corner. Concentration is a critical aspect of any road user. But It Does not compare with driving a sim either. There are no consequences in a sim and in a sim your concentrating on going as smoothly and fast as possible or following a car closely to setup an overtake. Non of this apples to road driving. The only thing which compares is awareness of your surroundings.

Wet conditions I kind of agree, however again you should not be anywhere near the limits on the road, distance to the car ahead being to short is the biggest cause off accidents in the wet.

If you suggest to Young drivers they use something like project cars to learn about wet conditions, concentration and cornering on a real road then in my opinion their chances of having an accident will increase.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 07:48
I don't think so. I think the arguments for countering slides and defensive driving are poor. I can already counter a slide (to the severity you would experience on a public road) and there are so many idiots on the roads these days that real world defense is already pretty good.

It without a doubt can make you more agressive if you let it, and that isn't good.

Great post.thanks for your contribution.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 07:50
Better on a track. Nothing in a racing sim applies to standard road driving

Disagree. Case in point:-


...I reckon reflexes are definitely better though. About 4 weeks ago when driving home from work in fading light a woman came out of a side street directly into my path, I hit the anchors and swerved at the same time to avoid her, luckily...

Similar thing has happened to me many a time, and I'm also a better driver in the wet.
I have learned better car control through racing sims. I've also learned to read the car better (feedback from the seat/weight shift/steering wheel etc). Like going from a controller/non-FFB wheel to a top spec FFB wheel/pedal setup + Oculus.

Not to mention the success of GT Academy...


My honest opinion is no. There is no racing game that teaches you proper defensive driving techniques.

Sim racing online/AI teaches awareness - a skill hard to quantify but is paramount to defensive driving. Can't drive defensively/safely if you're not fully aware of your surroundings.

Plus, naturally, being a sim racer means you have an interest in driving. If you're interested in it, you enjoy partaking in it, and like to do it well :)

Hlspwn
06-06-2015, 07:50
I think it can improve reactions, but improve skill on the road no! I am not here to judge or preach so take this as you will, but if your driving on the road as if you were on a track you really miss understand and imho are an accident waiting to happen.
Roads are really not the place to be testing cars limits, I am no angel and some of the things I have done are tbh lucky that nothing has ever happened to me or anyone else on the road. As I have got older and having children, I thing it has really changed my attitude to driving.
I love cars, and there's nothing like taking any car for a bit of a fast run and been a little naughty, but I try and drive to the conditions. The worst thing about the road is that speed can get you into situations you can not predict. Roads are not wide, and not very forgiving.

PunchRockgroin
06-06-2015, 07:52
Crashing a car is often very random. I've done it a few times, two examples:
1: Driving about 20 mph through a puddle on a slight bend (in a city, non the less) aqua planed and spun into the other lane.
2: Driving at maybe 30 mph, on a mountain damå road, surface felt slick and weird, driving carefully, suddenly, spin spin spin, into opposite lane, into a tree. Fuel line was broken, diesel had sprayed all over the body and the wheels, making the car impossible to control on a wet surface.

(I have no idea why've I've been so lucky with speeds and oncoming traffic). First time was unexpceted, second time I was alert and extremely lucky.

As far as the feeling in the steering wheel pCars sort of get's close. Sort of, a bit, I guess. But you do not get even remotely close to the terror you feel when the wheels just let got and you have no directional control at all or brakes. Also, the sensation of g-forces as the car spins. And eventually comes to a stop. That's the nice part. The second best part is inspecting the damage and realizing the car is driveable.

I doubt it will help you become in any way a better every day driver. When it goes wrong you are not expecting it, in my experience: Some ass hole not seeing you, someone swerving in front of you, you look at the radio and someone in front of you brakes, someone pulls of in front of you wanting to change lanes. No amount of sim-racing can prepare you for that.
But I guess it will make you a tad better at track driving, you understand lines, braking, cornering and what to watch out for, so a lot of the basics are down making the learning curve less steep. You just have to get to grips with the real physics and the fact that you don't really want to end your lap with a car that is 6 feet shorter than when you started it. Other than that, there's not really any comparison. Dat adrenaline!
I can recommend some track driving. On a war summer day there is nothing better than getting out of a low slung sports car that's been driven hard and smelling exhausts, brakes, clutch and the massive heat radiating from the car. Also, it doesn't have to cost a ton of money, that clutch smell and stuff? A miata/mx5 does that too. It's also extremely fun to drive.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 07:59
Disagree. Case in point:-



Similar thing has happened to me many a time, and I'm also a better driver in the wet.
I have learned better car control through racing sims. I've also learned to read the car better (feedback from the seat/weight shift/steering wheel etc). Like going from a controller/non-FFB wheel to a top spec FFB wheel/pedal setup + Oculus.

Not to mention the success of GT Academy...



Sim racing online/AI teaches awareness - a skill hard to quantify but is paramount to defensive driving. Can't drive defensively/safely if you're not fully aware of your surroundings.

Plus, naturally, being a sim racer means you have an interest in driving. If you're interested in it, you enjoy partaking in it, and like to do it well :)

It teaches situational awareness.

The last sentence in your post is a joke right?

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 08:01
It isn't possible to aquaplane below 50mph.

cerbrus2
06-06-2015, 08:03
I think sim racing can help with reflexes, but I also think that sim racing could install confidence in real world driving that surpasses the drivers skill.

cerbrus2
06-06-2015, 08:10
It isn't possible to aquaplane below 50mph.

That's a cut a dry answer, considering Aqua planing depends on so many different factors. Depth of water, tread depth, tyre width, car weight, tire pressure. Etc etc etc.

PunchRockgroin
06-06-2015, 08:44
That's a cut a dry answer, considering Aqua planing depends on so many different factors. Depth of water, tread depth, tyre width, car weight, tire pressure. Etc etc etc.

Exactly, low profile, broad tyres , minimum tread (Street legal etc), the puddle was very very deep.

Edit: I've never aqua planed above 50, to be honest.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 08:48
That's a cut a dry answer, considering Aqua planing depends on so many different factors. Depth of water, tread depth, tyre width, car weight, tire pressure. Etc etc etc.

The cut and dry answer is 53mph. 50mph with half tread depth and correct pressures.

At 20mph it isn't possible. Argue if you want but the laws of physics don't allow it.

PunchRockgroin
06-06-2015, 08:56
The cut and dry answer is 53mph. 50mph with half tread depth and correct pressures.

At 20mph it isn't possible. Argue if you want but the laws of physics don't allow it.

I have no idea how to explain it then, it is impossible, even in the dry, taking that corner at above 50, also, very slow car in front of me, braking as he turned in to the corner, forcing me to brake through the corner too, maybe we're not talking aqua planing, but that shit happened.

The car was crap though, that might be an explanaation

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 08:59
I have no idea how to explain it then, it is impossible, even in the dry, taking that corner at above 50, also, very slow car in front of me, braking as he turned in to the corner, forcing me to brake through the corner too, maybe we're not talking aqua planing, but that shit happened.

The car was crap though, that might be an explanaation

There it is.

LiveWire
06-06-2015, 10:12
L

Speed into corners? On a public road? If your not sure about cornering speed on a real road you should not be going fast enough where speed is ever going to be an issue, especially when you have no idea what's around that corner. Concentration is a critical aspect of any road user. But It Does not compare with driving a sim either. There are no consequences in a sim and in a sim your concentrating on going as smoothly and fast as possible or following a car closely to setup an overtake. Non of this apples to road driving. The only thing which compares is awareness of your surroundings.

Wet conditions I kind of agree, however again you should not be anywhere near the limits on the road, distance to the car ahead being to short is the biggest cause off accidents in the wet.

If you suggest to Young drivers they use something like project cars to learn about wet conditions, concentration and cornering on a real road then in my opinion their chances of having an accident will increase.

If you are driving on the streets like you do in a game, you are an idiot and should have your license taken away.

It's not about speed, it is about car control. Studying driving and practicing techniques in the game, then practicing them in a safe real world environment can only make you better. Most people never test the limits of their car or themselves in a safe environment. (Nor do they study driving once they have their license.) Then when a problem happens in the real world (weather,other drivers, bad roads, etc.), they don't know how they or the vehicle will react.

Every winter I watch people crash because they brake while turning, drive too fast and/ or over-correct. They have probably never had to correct a slide because they have never been in snow or other slick conditions before.

I am teaching my son to drive and I am using PCARS to demonstrate concepts with the disclaimer that THIS IS A GAME, A REAL CAR CAN KILL YOU AND OTHERS. This allows him to grasp a concept in a completely safe environment, where his isn't endangering others or himself.

Smooth can be fast, but it is also safe. I also tell my son that smooth is important. Sudden or jerky movements unsettle cars in real life too. Being able to quickly but smoothly maneuver can prevent a crash too (as opposed to someone who jerks the wheel causing them to lose control).

As others have said, a game and a real world race track are the only places to drive fast, the streets aren't, but that doesn't mean the game can't help improve your driving skills.

LiveWire
06-06-2015, 10:43
The cut and dry answer is 53mph. 50mph with half tread depth and correct pressures.

At 20mph it isn't possible. Argue if you want but the laws of physics don't allow it.

Can you site a source for this "law of physics"?

A tire can only move so much water. Tread depth, even on a new tire, depends on the type of tire. A passenger car tire is going to have more tread depth than a sports car tire and less than a truck tire. Generally, an all season tire will have deeper tread than a summer tire. The areas between the tread blocks on a truck tire is typically bigger than on a car tire also, therefore there is more area to displace the water. All of these factors and more determine how much water a tire can displace.

None of this takes into account other factors like the surface of the road, temperature, etc. A smooth road being easier to hydroplane on than a rougher road.

There are also several forms of hydroplaning (ie Dynamic, Viscous), some requiring only a slight film of water or other liquid.

There are tons of other factors involved, so I find blanket statements like that to be hard to believe.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 11:40
Can you site a source for this "law of physics"?

Yes I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian

Or more accurately:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_and_Eulerian_specification_of_the_flow_field



A tire can only move so much water. Tread depth, even on a new tire, depends on the type of tire. A passenger car tire is going to have more tread depth than a sports car tire and less than a truck tire. Generally, an all season tire will have deeper tread than a summer tire. The areas between the tread blocks on a truck tire is typically bigger than on a car tire also, therefore there is more area to displace the water. All of these factors and more determine how much water a tire can displace.

None of this takes into account other factors like the surface of the road, temperature, etc. A smooth road being easier to hydroplane on than a rougher road.

There are also several forms of hydroplaning (ie Dynamic, Viscous), some requiring only a slight film of water or other liquid.

There are tons of other factors involved, so I find blanket statements like that to be hard to believe.

Are you sure you want to get in to this?.....

Toxic
06-06-2015, 12:00
If you are driving on the streets like you do in a game, you are an idiot and should have your license taken away.

It's not about speed, it is about car control. Studying driving and practicing techniques in the game, then practicing them in a safe real world environment can only make you better. Most people never test the limits of their car or themselves in a safe environment. (Nor do they study driving once they have their license.) Then when a problem happens in the real world (weather,other drivers, bad roads, etc.), they don't know how they or the vehicle will react.

Every winter I watch people crash because they brake while turning, drive too fast and/ or over-correct. They have probably never had to correct a slide because they have never been in snow or other slick conditions before.

I am teaching my son to drive and I am using PCARS to demonstrate concepts with the disclaimer that THIS IS A GAME, A REAL CAR CAN KILL YOU AND OTHERS. This allows him to grasp a concept in a completely safe environment, where his isn't endangering others or himself.

Smooth can be fast, but it is also safe. I also tell my son that smooth is important. Sudden or jerky movements unsettle cars in real life too. Being able to quickly but smoothly maneuver can prevent a crash too (as opposed to someone who jerks the wheel causing them to lose control).

As others have said, a game and a real world race track are the only places to drive fast, the streets aren't, but that doesn't mean the game can't help improve your driving skills.

The comment i quoted was talking about problems - such speed into corners, thanks. The quote also ended saying Young drivers could benefit greatly by learning such lessons - referring to using games like pcars, to learn.

unless their 10 year old 1.0 corsa drives the same as a clio cup car then that statement is ridiculous. Thanks

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 12:04
It teaches situational awareness.

The last sentence in your post is a joke right?

No. although it is a bit of a generalization. I mean guys who take sim racing a little more seriously, like car guys who have an appreciation for motorsport, racecraft, automotive technology etc. guys who feed their inner Schumacher/McNish/Loeb in the digital world. guys like you and me who appreciate the realism and physics engine in pCars, rFactor et al because we like to pretend our PJs are made of Nomex and the struggle is real when you're half way down the Mulsanne on slicks and the rain drops are partying on your screen...
because of their (our?) interest in cars and driving, we'll know about it a little more and do it a little better because we take an interest to it...
It is human nature that, besides natural talent, if you're interested in something you're better at it. Bet you're terrible at embroidery. you wouldn't be playing this game or be on this forum having this discussion otherwise.

so you're telling me sim racing has had a negative effect on your on-road, in-traffic driving skills? tell me sim racing has reduced your ability or confidence in, for example, emergency maneuvers on your part to avoid/mitigate a collision?

can't cite research results but... tell me I'm crazy or full of shit?

Roger Prynne
06-06-2015, 12:10
meet-the-gran-turismo-player-now-driving-race-cars-for-real (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/meet-the-gran-turismo-player-now-driving-race-cars-for-real/1100-6419397/)

GT Academy: Grand Turismo 5 teenage player becomes real life racing driver (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/gt-academy-grand-turismo-5-181843)

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 12:12
The comment i quoted was talking about problems - such speed into corners, thanks. The quote also ended saying Young drivers could benefit greatly by learning such lessons - referring to using games like pcars, to learn.

unless their 10 year old 1.0 corsa drives the same as a clio cup car then that statement is ridiculous. Thanks

even if some of us are more confident in our abilities in sim racing and decide to take a street corner quick, and something unexpected happens, chances are they're better equipped to deal with it than someone who's never experienced loss of traction.

if you're saying sim racing makes us act out our race driver fantasies on the streets... well... until the release of pCars I spent many thousands of hours on COD and battlefield 3/4. doesn't mean I'm gonna go shoot up the joint or set off some C4 in a tunnel for a laugh...

stux
06-06-2015, 12:16
It isn't possible to aquaplane below 50mph.

Bullshit.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 12:27
even if some of us are more confident in our abilities in sim racing and decide to take a street corner quick, and something unexpected happens, chances are they're better equipped to deal with it than someone who's never experienced loss of traction.



Yes agree, you may avoid the car coming straight to you and kill a child playing near the road behind it. All because of your confidence at taking the corenr faster.

The original question was 'Do sim racers make better real life drivers?' and my opinion is no. Your response is exactly the reason why.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 12:39
Yes agree, you may avoid the car coming straight to you and kill a child playing near the road behind it. All because of your confidence at taking the corenr faster.

The original question was 'Do sim racers make better real life drivers?' and my opinion is no. Your response is exactly the reason why.

^ really? if you want to impress us with your imagination, you can get more far-fetched scenarios than that, can't you?

it's the same argument placed by those who want to ban violent FPS games every time some kid loses his shit over in USA and shoots up his school...

edit: I've come round a bend on my way home from night shift at 4am sideways and some drunk kid happened to be crossing the street and I still dodged his ass.
because sim racing.
true story.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 12:43
Bullshit.

Really? :D

Dynamic hydroplaning speeds (hitting a puddle.) Can be calculated by using the tyre pressure. I believe it is 8.6x the square root of the psi.

30 psi = aquaplane at 50mph

50 psi = 60mph

Do some reasearch before you open your mouth.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 12:43
so you're telling me sim racing has had a negative effect on your on-road, in-traffic driving skills? tell me sim racing has reduced your ability or confidence in, for example, emergency maneuvers on your part to avoid/mitigate a collision?

can't cite research results but... tell me I'm crazy or full of shit?

The original post asked 'Do sim racers make better real life drivers?'. And my opinion is no they do not.

I do not believe playing racing SIMs has affetcted my on road, in-traffic driving style - i have been on the road for a long time though IRL. Several people in this thread though have insinuated that they now take chances or risks - such as going for gaps they perhaps should not. That to me is not a positive affect when sharing the roads with other.

Regarding emergency manouvers - my car is not in the game- or any other sim i have played so no it has not helped.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 12:48
^ really? if you want to impress us with your imagination, you can get more far-fetched scenarios than that, can't you?

it's the same argument placed by those who want to ban violent FPS games every time some kid loses his shit over in USA and shoots up his school...

You have the lost the plot my friend.

Amatuers always run out of talent - especially those with attitudes like yours!

stux
06-06-2015, 12:51
Really? :D

Dynamic hydroplaning speeds (hitting a puddle.) Can be calculated by using the tyre pressure. I believe it is 8.6x the square root of the psi.

30 psi = aquaplane at 50mph

50 psi = 60mph

Do some reasearch before you open your mouth.

Drive a car.

It doesn't matter how much theory you want to pull. All I need to do is prove that you can aquaplane at less than 50mph to disprove you.

50mph is 80.47km/hr

I have aquaplaned at 80km/hr and less.

You are speaking bullshit.

Get over yourself.

Toxic
06-06-2015, 12:56
Drive a car.

It doesn't matter how much theory you want to pull. All I need to do is prove that you can aquaplane at less than 50mph to disprove you.

50mph is 80.47km/hr

I have aquaplaned at 80km/hr and less.

You are speaking bullshit.

Get over yourself.

You should have put wets on ;-)

stux
06-06-2015, 13:03
You should have put wets on ;-)

Yes. My tyres might've been worn, and it might've been torrential conditions, and it was certainly brown underpants time. Never the less, it is certainly possible to aquaplane at less than 50mph.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 13:42
Drive a car.

It doesn't matter how much theory you want to pull. All I need to do is prove that you can aquaplane at less than 50mph to disprove you.

50mph is 80.47km/hr

I have aquaplaned at 80km/hr and less.

You are speaking bullshit.

Get over yourself.

LOL

You realise you're arguing with Newtonian Physics and some of the greatest mathematicians of have ever lived?

stux
06-06-2015, 13:45
Isn't it funny how the Maths works out to exactly 50mph....

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 13:46
Yes. My tyres might've been worn, and it might've been torrential conditions, and it was certainly brown underpants time. Never the less, it is certainly possible to aquaplane at less than 50mph.

Not Dynamic aquaplaning it isn't. My calculations were for slicks at 30psi (the lower end of suggested average tyre pressures), I think it actually comes out at 53mph with barely legal tread and 30psi.

Roger Prynne
06-06-2015, 13:48
LOL

You realise you're arguing with Newtonian Physics and some of the greatest mathematicians of have ever lived?

But have any of them actually tested if they can aquaplane in a car going under 50 mph... :rolleyes:

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 13:50
Isn't it funny how the Maths works out to exactly 50mph....

I think its funnier that you're arguing about Dynamic aquaplaning calculations when you don't understand it...

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 13:53
Yes. My tyres might've been worn, and it might've been torrential conditions, and it was certainly brown underpants time. Never the less, it is certainly possible to aquaplane at less than 50mph.

Do you think it is equally possible that you weren't aquaplaning and you were simply going to fast and lost grip?

Did you learn that from sim racing? ;)

stux
06-06-2015, 14:01
Hit a large puddle at speed, where the water can't be evacuated by the tyre grooves sufficiently, such that the rubber leaves the road and glides on the water.

As far as I know, that's aquaplaning. And it's possible below 80km/hr.

You never added provisios of slicks, or above 30 psi with greater than or equal to legal tread. You just stated a blanket, easily disproven statement "you can not aquaplane below 50mph". You can, and I wouldn't recommend it.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 14:09
Hit a large puddle at speed, where the water can't be evacuated by the tyre grooves sufficiently, such that the rubber leaves the road and glides on the water.

As far as I know, that's aquaplaning. And it's possible below 80km/hr.

You never added provisios of above 30 psi with greater than or equal to legal tread. You just stated a blanket, easily disproven statement "you can not aquaplane below 50mph". You can, and I wouldn't recommend it.

LOL

1,. Yes I did. I quoted 30psi and 50psi.

2. I'm talking about a specific type of aquaplaning as mentioned by a previous poster in which he claims to have done it at 20mph.

Absolutle dynamic aquaplaning calculations need not make any provision to tread depth nor water depth, which is how I know you don't know your arse from your elbow because you failed to spot my curve ball a couple of posts back. The WORST CASE scenario of hitting standing water with an infinite water depth at 30psi is aquaplaning at 50mph. Increase the PSI, increase the maximum speed.

Traditional aquaplaning (V) has to make provisions for weight, tread depth, liquid viscosity, temperature etc etc, but that isn;t the type of aquaplaning we're talking about here.

E2a: It has also been established that it wasn't the pubble that caused the spin, it was the fact that he was following the car in front too closely and had to break mid-corner.

But apparently, racing sims make you a better public driver.

I have to disagree.

Umer Ahmad
06-06-2015, 14:19
LOL

1,. Yes I did. I quoted 30psi and 50psi.

2. I'm talking about a specific type of aquaplaning as mentioned by a previous poster in which he claims to have done it at 20mph.

Absolutle dynamic aquaplaning calculations need not make any provision to tread depth nor water depth, which is how I know you don't know your arse from your elbow because you failed to spot my curve ball a couple of posts back. The WORST CASE scenario of hitting standing water with an infinite water depth at 30psi is aquaplaning at 50mph. Increase the PSI, increase the maximum speed.

Traditional aquaplaning (V) has to make provisions for weight, tread depth, liquid viscosity, temperature etc etc, but that isn;t the type of aquaplaning we're talking about here.

E2a: It has also been established that it wasn't the pubble that caused the spin, it was the fact that he was following the car in front too closely and had to break mid-corner.

But apparently, racing sims make you a better public driver.

I have to disagree.
Fine you win. BUT everyone here INCLUDING you will admit some form of "aquaplaning" is absolutely possible unde 50mph depending on many conditions. Let's move on now, we dont need a debate about it, everyone has experienced SOME FORM of aquaplaning under 50mph.

If you're here enlighten us then do so without the egotistical academic attitude. ("Lol", "you really wanna go there", etc.). We dont appreciate Internet Tough Guys here, genuine conversations without condescending attitudes are always welcome however.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 14:26
We dont appreciate Internet Tough Guys here, genuine conversations without condescending attitudes are always welcome however.

You mean the ones that say I'm talking bullshit?

How do you expect me to react?

F1Aussie
06-06-2015, 14:26
Good lively debate guys. re aquaplaning, we all know that enough water on a road can lift a car off the tarmac like in flash flooding, if you were driving in these conditions you may only be doing a few kph when the torrent of water elevates the car off the road, is this still classified as aquaplaning then?

Roger Prynne
06-06-2015, 14:26
You mean the ones that say I'm talking bullshit?

How do you expect me to react?


Be the bigger man.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 14:27
The original post asked 'Do sim racers make better real life drivers?'. And my opinion is no they do not.

I do not believe playing racing SIMs has affetcted my on road, in-traffic driving style - i have been on the road for a long time though IRL. Several people in this thread though have insinuated that they now take chances or risks - such as going for gaps they perhaps should not. That to me is not a positive affect when sharing the roads with other.

Regarding emergency manouvers - my car is not in the game- or any other sim i have played so no it has not helped.

Better real life drivers - proven, as mentioned before by GT Academy and by our mutual opinion that it increases situational awareness - that in itself makes anyone a better driver in traffic on the streets.
that in itself allows one to better judge risk factors and act accordingly.

your daily driver not being in a sim has little relevance - for example, if you've only ever driven FWD in real life, then you jump in a RWD car for the first time (but have had plenty of sim time in RWD race cars), you'll know not to apply more throttle when the tail steps out - which is the opposite of what you generally do in a FWD car. so maybe you haven't had emergency situations where sim racing has helped you


You have the lost the plot my friend.
Amatuers always run out of talent - especially those with attitudes like yours!


Yes agree, you may avoid the car coming straight to you and kill a child playing near the road behind it. All because of your confidence at taking the corenr faster..

ye mate. completely lost it. resorted to wild analogies and degradation because I have a poor attitude and refuse to acknowledge validity of real-life personal experiences, proof (GT Academy) and logic presented in a non-condescending way.

so you reckon sim racing is so bad because somebody took a narrow gap in traffic (because he's better able to judge the situation and deem it a safe maneuver) and took a street turn a little fast. and aside from improved situational awareness (partly thanks to sim racing) you've never had to do an emergency maneuver that involved skills learnt from sim racing.
solid work mate.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 14:29
Be the bigger man.

I wasn't the one tell other poster to "get over themselves".

Now if you're going to make a public example of me, I believe there are others who should be guided in the correct ways of addressing people.

E2a: I've just realised you aren't the original moderator I was speaking to, I address ^^ that comment to them.

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 14:31
Good lively debate guys. re aquaplaning, we all know that enough water on a road can lift a car off the tarmac like in flash flooding, if you were driving in these conditions you may only be doing a few kph when the torrent of water elevates the car off the road, is this still classified as aquaplaning then?

Hmmmmm, I don't know.

Umer Ahmad
06-06-2015, 14:39
You mean the ones that say I'm talking bullshit?

How do you expect me to react?

"It isn't possible to aquaplane below 50mph."
^your post #21

A couple reasonable responses followed. Your post #30 ends "Are you sure you want to get in to this?....."

The "bullshit" comment wasnt until post 35

So yeah, you escalated for no reason. Apology accepted. Dont do it again please

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 14:45
"It isn't possible to aquaplane below 50mph."
^your post #21

A couple reasonable responses followed. Your post #30 ends "Are you sure you want to get in to this?....."

The "bullshit" comment wasnt until post 35

So yeah, you escalated for no reason. Apology accepted. Dot do it again please

There were a number of problems with the original posters assertions, that I was happy to discuss at a more technical level but it was apparent to me that the poster didn't really have a grasp of the concepts behind it although they were condesending in the ask for "these *laws of physics*". As for the rest of your reply I'll choose my words carefully....

Get fucked.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 14:58
Get fucked.

206460

RedDave84
06-06-2015, 15:00
It did, didn't it? :D

Umer Ahmad
06-06-2015, 15:13
There were a number of problems with the original posters assertions, that I was happy to discuss at a more technical level but it was apparent to me that the poster didn't really have a grasp of the concepts behind it although they were condesending in the ask for "these *laws of physics*". As for the rest of your reply I'll choose my words carefully....

Get fucked.

I didnt think you were capable of changing your attitude even when provided evidence where you made an error. Goodbye, enjoy the game (or dont, i couldnt care less)

Warning to all: insulting others is quick way to end your race on this forum. Personally i have little patience for "academic trolls", you help people with a positive non-confrontational attitude or it gets messy here quickly

stux
06-06-2015, 15:20
Some people don't like being called out

Anywho, where were we...

That's right, when driving and the sh#t hits the fan, having experienced similar conditions in a sim means you can react faster, or perhaps correctly. This is the same reason why pilots fly sims.

I've found myself in a scenario where I've caught a spin, and I don't think I would've done that if I hadn't have been doing similar in sims. I just reacted automatically.

I do use an FFB wheel.

Silva5584
06-06-2015, 15:31
No they don't, moderators especially it seems. 1 point infraction to a ban in a minute or so with no further input. Must have touched a nerve.

I think that FFB has its uses in keeping you on the ball and well practised with the feeling of going light on the basis of perhaps not panicking as much should you ever slip, but generally, I don't think it is much use.

Roger Prynne
06-06-2015, 15:36
1 point infraction to a ban in a minute or so with no further input. Must have touched a nerve

You don't tell a Mod or anyone come to that to "Get F%*ked"

Toxic
06-06-2015, 15:38
Better real life drivers - proven, as mentioned before by GT Academy and by our mutual opinion that it increases situational awareness - that in itself makes anyone a better driver in traffic on the streets.
that in itself allows one to better judge risk factors and act accordingly.

your daily driver not being in a sim has little relevance - for example, if you've only ever driven FWD in real life, then you jump in a RWD car for the first time (but have had plenty of sim time in RWD race cars), you'll know not to apply more throttle when the tail steps out - which is the opposite of what you generally do in a FWD car. so maybe you haven't had emergency situations where sim racing has helped you





ye mate. completely lost it. resorted to wild analogies and degradation because I have a poor attitude and refuse to acknowledge validity of real-life personal experiences, proof (GT Academy) and logic presented in a non-condescending way.

so you reckon sim racing is so bad because somebody took a narrow gap in traffic (because he's better able to judge the situation and deem it a safe maneuver) and took a street turn a little fast. and aside from improved situational awareness (partly thanks to sim racing) you've never had to do an emergency maneuver that involved skills learnt from sim racing.
solid work mate.

Im not talking about racing, my first post said Sims make you better on a track.

Im saying they do not make you a better driver on a road!! get it???

Silva5584
06-06-2015, 15:41
I don't think it is appropriate to make an example of someone when they merely respond in the fashion that they have been addressed, but pay no mind to other parties involved. But lets move on.

Umer Ahmad
06-06-2015, 18:53
I don't think it is appropriate to make an example of someone when they merely respond in the fashion that they have been addressed, but pay no mind to other parties involved. But lets move on.
You do understand why he was removed, correct? See the end of his penultimate post.

Is it CRYSTAL clear now? Please share that with the rest of Matsuo Racing, insults towards stuff is not tolerated here.

Silva5584
06-06-2015, 19:25
This is nothing to do with Matsuo racing.

Yes I understand why I was banned. But again, I was merely responding in the same fashion I was addressed, and you like to overlook that fact. You have yet to acknowledge it because it would mean you admitting that you were in the wrong by choosing to make an example out of me and not point the same perception at others.

Yes, I have a new account, ban it if you like (IP ban if you want), I'll soon by round it.

E2a:

To make my point of view clear.

#29 Begins with 'Can you site a source for this "law of physics"?' Note the quotation marks. That set the tone for my reply.

I had no further discussion with that poster.

#35 Bullshit.

That also set the tone for my reply.

#42 finished with

You are speaking bullshit.

Get over yourself.

He set the tone to continue the conversation.

Yet, you make an example out of me with you "Internet Tough Guy" blah blah blah and no recourse for the others involved. Laughable.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 21:03
Im not talking about racing, my first post said Sims make you better on a track.

Im saying they do not make you a better driver on a road!! get it???

So you're telling me that attributes, that sim racing positively affects, like:

a) increased situational awareness,
b) enhanced reflexes,
c) improved knowledge of vehicle dynamics,
d) better car control skills,

DO NOT make someone a better driver on the streets?
does that mean professional race drivers are no better than the average punter on the streets?

206469

how and why are those attributes of NO importance to a driver on the street?

you can't be serious. I hope you're either trolling or I've completely misunderstood you.
or.. I've completely lost it.

hkraft300
06-06-2015, 21:24
My honest opinion is no. There is no racing game that teaches you proper defensive driving techniques.

Reeaallly?


When you start defending the inside line on a roundabout, half expecting the car behind to just go straight over it.


... you reach a roundabout and consciously brake less and carefully select your line to see if you can keep up the momentum and create a gap to the cars behind.

Tell me that's not defensive driving lol
jk
(From the "you know you play too much project cars when..." thread
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?28848-You-know-you-re-playing-too-much-Project-Cars-when)

cluck
06-06-2015, 21:32
<snip>Then, as somebody else wrote, you walk away. Nobody holds a gun to your head saying "you must post". Nobody will think any less of you if you just leave it alone, but some people will carry a very negative opinion of you if you escalate things to the point where you tell moderators where to stick it. Some things in life really aren't worth the aggravation and arguing on the internet, to the point where you lose control and get banned, really is one of those things that isn't worth it :).

AdM1
06-06-2015, 21:50
Sim drivers would like to think so. All it really does is help you to learn the track.

F1Aussie
07-06-2015, 00:23
I once remember reading something that mentioned Ralf Schumacher wife commented on his road driving skills, said he drove like a grandma and couldn't parallel park without hitting something,sounds a bit like his race craft also, lol.

hkraft300
07-06-2015, 00:39
I once remember reading something that mentioned Ralf Schumacher wife commented on his road driving skills, said he drove like a grandma and couldn't parallel park without hitting something,sounds a bit like his race craft also, lol.

Ralf Schumacher hey? sounds about right lol can't say that's much of a surprise!

cudirage13
07-06-2015, 01:40
I guess if we all drove 45-80MPH in our racing sims I guess it could be realistic but no obviously we drive at insane speeds in racing sims and we don't in real life.

Silva5584
07-06-2015, 05:44
Then, as somebody else wrote, you walk away. Nobody holds a gun to your head saying "you must post". Nobody will think any less of you if you just leave it alone, but some people will carry a very negative opinion of you if you escalate things to the point where you tell moderators where to stick it. Some things in life really aren't worth the aggravation and arguing on the internet, to the point where you lose control and get banned, really is one of those things that isn't worth it :).

I didn't lose control, It was a chosen phrase with an expected outcome.

UMadBro
07-06-2015, 11:23
No, sim drivers don't provide the realistic feel. In other words you have stuff like fines, fees and real-life problems unlike most sim cars. Also Project Cars is riddled with bugs so there's too much of a comparison there. Or too little. No harm done devs.

oscarolim
07-06-2015, 11:54
meet-the-gran-turismo-player-now-driving-race-cars-for-real (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/meet-the-gran-turismo-player-now-driving-race-cars-for-real/1100-6419397/)

GT Academy: Grand Turismo 5 teenage player becomes real life racing driver (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/gt-academy-grand-turismo-5-181843)

Because none of the GT academy drivers ever got an intensive driving course before racing. They jumped directly from the couch to Le Mans...
F1 drivers use rfactor to know the tracks. I reckon FP1 to 3 could be scraped as the sim is all they need to drive on Sunday afternoon, no?

Many people here write that sims helped me do this and that on the road. So let me ask, what about your experience? Do you even take that into consideration? When I got my license I did a lot of crap on the road. 13 years later, I don't. Not because of sims, but because for one I grew up, and for second all the accumulated miles driven in the past 13 years taught me how to be a better driver.

Roger Prynne
07-06-2015, 12:05
Yes experience and maturity is the key here... if I drove like I did as a teenager now, I would be locked up, or dead.

I used to drive for a living and have done 100's of thousands of miles in my life.

I've never had an accident though... touch wood.

LADY GEMMA JANE
07-06-2015, 12:12
I'm a reckless driver, I have 9 points on my License for speeding offenses
My car insurance is now 7k a year !! , 2014 Mini Cooper S (21yo)

Roger Prynne
07-06-2015, 12:16
7k a year, bloody hell... I could by a decent car for that....slow down you fool :onthego:

cluck
07-06-2015, 12:20
I'm a reckless driver, I have 9 points on my License for speeding offenses
My car insurance is now 7k a year !! , 2014 Mini Cooper S (21yo)Try slowing down ;) :p.

After 26 years of driving I still haven't had a single speeding ticket but, certainly in the earlier years, that is more down to luck than judgement. My previous 2 cars were a 106GTi (I still miss that car - not much power, but it just begged to be driven like a hooligan everywhere :D) and a Nissan 200SX which I owned for 12 years (ended up with a spec list as long as your arm and about 350hp from the standard engine internals and gearbox). In towns and villages, I would always make sure I was at or below the posted speed limit. Everywhere else was fair game, based on the prevailing conditions :).

As Roger said, if I now drove the way I did when I first got my license, I'd be a dead man in a matter of hours. I shudder sometimes when I look at bits of road I used to routinely overtake people on :o.

UMadBro
07-06-2015, 12:29
Then, as somebody else wrote, you walk away. Nobody holds a gun to your head saying "you must post". Nobody will think any less of you if you just leave it alone, but some people will carry a very negative opinion of you if you escalate things to the point where you tell moderators where to stick it. Some things in life really aren't worth the aggravation and arguing on the internet, to the point where you lose control and get banned, really is one of those things that isn't worth it :).

Those negative people are the 2%. Sssh don't tell anybody.

Roger Prynne
07-06-2015, 12:30
I shudder sometimes when I look at bits of road I used to routinely overtake people on
Yeah I can relate to that, in my Ford Capri with a V6 tuned to hell.

hkraft300
07-06-2015, 12:51
Yes of course Experience is the biggest factor.
We're discussing whether sim racing has/ can assist one to become a better driver. I believe it can and have outlined in detail why I think so. If you think otherwise, please do tell us why :)

As for GT Academy: yes they got intense driver training to filter the best of the best. The guys who made it like Mardenborough were already half way there with their mentality, methodology, precision etc...
Dare say some of us who are serious sim racers and proper fast would've done very well at Nissan's academy :)
How well do you think a non-sim racer would do at the academy?

UMadBro
07-06-2015, 14:09
Yes of course Experience is the biggest factor.
We're discussing whether sim racing has/ can assist one to become a better driver. I believe it can and have outlined in detail why I think so. If you think otherwise, please do tell us why :)

As for GT Academy: yes they got intense driver training to filter the best of the best. The guys who made it like Mardenborough were already half way there with their mentality, methodology, precision etc...
Dare say some of us who are serious sim racers and proper fast would've done very well at Nissan's academy :)
How well do you think a non-sim racer would do at the academy?

I'd believe you need to actually experience it in real life first before doing anything else. Besides playing games.
Just look out for the birdies.

Blvd69
07-06-2015, 16:10
Well here is a good topic...I'd say based on my 25 years of driving skills in the real world.
No racing game has ever made me a better driver,and for those who claim they were made better are dreaming!
I'd also add that most of these racing games give people a false reality of driving on the street with a false confidence.
You have to remember games allow you to crash without consequence unlike in the real world.
One false move on the highways or your local streets the cops are gonna lock you up and the judge will throw the book at you!
So don't ever confuse games with reality....bad thing to do!
People also need to stop Texting while driving..people are endangering their lives and other drivers on the road.
Thanks thats my thought for the day.
my web site is
http://blvd69crew.weebly.com
http://blvd69crew.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/9/4/31949407/2932776_orig.png

http://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/86/2015/04/06130539/tumblr_static_texting-while-driving.jpg