PDA

View Full Version : Your opinions on Senna's driving



cudirage13
07-06-2015, 01:26
I'm going to go ahead and assume that all or a very big majority of us know who Ayrton Senna was and have an understanding of his F1 career. My question is, do you guys think his driving style was too reckless? I think there does come a point where you just shouldn't go for the gap because it's just too small and the risk/reward chance drastically decreases but obviously this meant nothing to Ayrton because he was just OBSESSED with winning, it was all he cared about and if hitting the other guy is what was needed he would do it like he did to Alain Prost. There is no doubting his amazing driving abilities and he is my personal idol when it comes to auto racing and how one should drive with passion and desire, but I think sometimes Ayrton was in way over his head but somehow, without his nearly kamikaze attitude he just wouldn't be Senna...

Alan Dallas
08-06-2015, 08:35
If by too reckless you mean 'very aggressive'. Then yes, he was very aggressive. I watched him race as a teenager myself. I have to agree, his will to win every race was very apparent by his driving style. One that admittedly today would earn him all kinds of bad press and infractions/fines by the F1 governing body. It was a different time then, when his unsafe racecraft was seen as bravery, but now people look at it and think 'damn, he was a menace on the track'. But he also showed respect and compassion for his fellow drivers at times. Like pulling over and stopping to help another wrecked driver when no safety crew was near by to help. The man had mad skills, no doubt about that.

TrevorAustin
08-06-2015, 08:36
Prost returned the favour.

Martini Da Gasalini
09-06-2015, 19:33
I'm going to go ahead and assume that all or a very big majority of us know who Ayrton Senna was and have an understanding of his F1 career. My question is, do you guys think his driving style was too reckless? I think there does come a point where you just shouldn't go for the gap because it's just too small and the risk/reward chance drastically decreases but obviously this meant nothing to Ayrton because he was just OBSESSED with winning, it was all he cared about and if hitting the other guy is what was needed he would do it like he did to Alain Prost. There is no doubting his amazing driving abilities and he is my personal idol when it comes to auto racing and how one should drive with passion and desire, but I think sometimes Ayrton was in way over his head but somehow, without his nearly kamikaze attitude he just wouldn't be Senna...


He had no rival in the rain! the man was brilliant, was incredible to watch, and most likely would have passed Fangio first in championships before Shumacher

mister dog
09-06-2015, 19:40
Prost returned the favour.

No it was the other way around as Prost drove into him during Suzuka '89 ;)

This whole aggressive image is mainly based on what happened in Suzuka '90. Yes Senna drove into Prost but 1: the events of the year before, when they took the championship away from Senna for 'skipping the chicane', and 2: Balestre ordering pole to stay the wrong (dirty) side of the track so Prost would have an advantage for '90, made this happen.

o Mike V o
09-06-2015, 20:23
Brilliant driver but a little dirty in my eyes.

Ian Bell
09-06-2015, 20:27
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5tby6_senna-donington-1993_auto

Ian Bell
09-06-2015, 20:36
Best bits, changing gear from 1st to 2nd out of Lowes (as it was then) with one hand on the wheel countersteering.

And, The contrast between the faces of Ron Dennis and Alain Prost at the laptime :)


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20uuc_f1-ayrton-senna-pole-lap-on-board-m_auto

Ian Bell
09-06-2015, 20:41
To answer your question Cudirage, in my opinion, no one came close and no one ever will.

mister dog
09-06-2015, 20:44
To answer your question Cudirage, In my opinion, no one came close and no won ever will.
Was he what inspired you to pick up virtual racing? He was for me.

Matthew Gibbs
09-06-2015, 20:45
To answer your question Cudirage, In my opinion, no one came close and no one ever will.

No one will have such scant regard for their own personal safety

I think Senna was perfect for that era of F1 like Sir Sterling Moss was

cudirage13
09-06-2015, 20:46
Best bits, changing gear from 1st to 2nd out of Lowes (as it was then) with one hand on the wheel countersteering.

And, The contrast between the faces of Ron Dennis and Alain Prost at the laptime :)


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20uuc_f1-ayrton-senna-pole-lap-on-board-m_auto

Only a madman would go one handed at Monaco! He was truly a gift from God.

apexatspeed
09-06-2015, 20:48
Only a madman would go one handed at Monaco! He was truly a gift from God.

Anybody that had to take their hand of the steering wheel to shift went one handed in Monaco. Drivers do it now when adjusting brake bias and other things. Driving one handed isn't what made Senna special.

cudirage13
09-06-2015, 20:51
Anybody that had to take their hand of the steering wheel to shift went one handed in Monaco. Drivers do it now when adjusting brake bias and other things. Driving one handed isn't what made Senna special.

lol! Please do not compare today's "racing" to what it used to be in Senna's era. Today it's no problem because of all the technology back then it took skill. And I never said that was what made him special, there were plenty of other reasons to why he was the best.

Robbo-92
09-06-2015, 20:53
No doubt he will be remembered as an all time great, that opening lap at Donnington in 93 I believe is breathtaking to watch now, I can't imagine what it would have been like watching it live!

apexatspeed
09-06-2015, 20:55
lol! Please do not compare today's "racing" to what it used to be in Senna's era. Today it's no problem because of all the technology back then it took skill. And I never said that was what made him special, there were plenty of other reasons to why he was the best.

"Only a madman would go one handed at Monaco! He was truly a gift from God." That is exactly what you said. I am not comparing then to now. Even back then everyone had to use one hand when shifting gears at Monaco.

"back then it took skill" Are you trying to imply that racing now doesn't take skill? Whether it is in Formula 1 or not.

o Mike V o
09-06-2015, 20:56
Senna set the yardstick, however I think many drivers over the years have exceeded that.

oscarolim
09-06-2015, 21:00
Anybody that had to take their hand of the steering wheel to shift went one handed in Monaco. Drivers do it now when adjusting brake bias and other things. Driving one handed isn't what made Senna special.

Are you a comedian? Really, driving today's car compared with a 90's F1 is like me saying I can drive a 2015 F1 car because I can do good times on a PC.
Very few (probably one a handfull) of today's F1 grid would be able to handle a 90's F1 car, and none like Senna did.

Ian Bell
09-06-2015, 21:01
Was he what inspired you to pick up virtual racing? He was for me.

Probably yeah. Watching him, Alain Prost and Mansell was fun. But I took an odd liking to Damon Hill. I sort of always knew he never had the greatest of natural talent but I always backed him.

apexatspeed
09-06-2015, 21:03
Are you a comedian? Really, driving today's car compared with a 90's F1 is like me saying I can drive a 2015 F1 car because I can do good times on a PC.
Very few (probably one a handfull) of today's F1 grid would be able to handle a 90's F1 car, and none like Senna did.

Maybe you should read what I wrote. I'll bold it out for you. "Anybody that had to take their hand of the steering wheel to shift went one handed in Monaco"

That has nothing to do with drivers now. EVERYONE had to use one hand while shifting before they started using paddle shifters.:rolleyes:

o Mike V o
09-06-2015, 21:04
Are you a comedian? Really, driving today's car compared with a 90's F1 is like me saying I can drive a 2015 F1 car because I can do good times on a PC.
Very few (probably one a handfull) of today's F1 grid would be able to handle a 90's F1 car, and none like Senna did.

It is more like comparing a walk-man to an ipod

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/screen-shot-2015-03-09-at-2-39-57-pm.jpg?w=1000&h=462

Are the new cars really that much easier? doubt it, drivers now a days could hold their own in older cars thats for sure, they would probably enjoy it a lot more too..

mister dog
09-06-2015, 21:11
Probably yeah. Watching him, Alain Prost and Mansell was fun. But I took an odd liking to Damon Hill. I sort of always knew he never had the greatest of natural talent but I always backed him.
I was only a teenager at the time, but i remember seeing Hill as the wimpy fella that had to fill in Senna's role, and got abused by Schumacher all the time :)

Of course looking back now his '96 championship was well deserved, and what he managed to get out of that Arrows was what truly convinced me of his skills.

Seps1974
09-06-2015, 21:12
To answer your question Cudirage, in my opinion, no one came close and no one ever will.

Senna was one of a kind... there was Senna and then the others.
Always be missed.

bmanic
10-06-2015, 02:42
There will always come some new super talents. When it comes to pure car control and "feeling the grip on a super-human level" I think Lewis Hamilton has some Senna like talent. I'm pretty sure he will go down in history as one of the greats. There's just something about his driving ability that is superb.

Another "legend" in this same category in my opinion is Fernando Alonso. Too bad he hasn't had a good car for ages but that dude has some super-human talent as well.

hillcrest34
10-06-2015, 13:26
I don't think he was reckless, aggressive definitely, but not reckless. He was an extremely passionate man and that was obvious from watching him race but he also inspired passion in others. I don't think that you can really compare him to drivers of today, just like you can't compare the Formula 1 of then to the Formula 1 of now. Whilst there may have and will be other drivers of his skill level the matching of someone of the likes him and the characteristics of that era of F1, in my opinion, wont happen again

TheReaper GT
10-06-2015, 14:46
I couldn't say any better than a racing legend


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DCT31clQwI

PureMalt77
10-06-2015, 15:43
I think he's the greatest pilot ever, and I don't think Schumi would have 7 titles if Senna had not died.

I also agree that is hard to compare F1 in different eras, many pilots deserve their achievements.
The cars from today are clearly "easier" to drive, in terms of handling and the physical strength required. Probably you remember his first Brazilian GP win, when he finished with only the 6th gear left, when he could barely raise the trophy.
His first F1 race, with Toleman, he was not prepared to drive a 2h race with the super turbos they had at the time, and required physical training to survive a weekend GP...

He was a bit unfair at times, thanks to his obsession. As he said: 2nd is the first that looses... so only victory matters.
That obsession costed him a few things that he learned over time, like 88 Monaco crash after a 50s gap.
In the tragic Imola '94, after Barrichello incident on Friday, and the death of Ratzenberger Saturday, Sid Watkings told him not to race the next day, and he replied "I have to race". He had an Austrian flag in his pocket to raise after the race...

What strikes me is like: last year (and apparently this year will be the same), we have a boring season with Mercedes winning everything, and within Mercedes, I don't see Rosberg at the same level as Hamilton. But back to 88, Senna & Prost won 16 of 17 races, if I'm not wrong, a record that only Mercedes managed to beat last year (most wins in a season). The difference is: even if their car was much better than the opponents, at least there was a fight between the 2 to watch, and a nice one! Moreover, drivers could you could win races with missing gears, damages, and now all of that is gone, you have to implement stupid tricks like DRS, to try to bring some action to something that was natural before.

I take from him a lot of inspiration to my own life. No, I'm not religious - the only part I skip from him - but like him I do try to excel in everything I do. That's the inspiration he has left to me.

aleph99
10-06-2015, 16:24
That first lap in the rain was, in my opinion, the most brilliant piece of F1 driving ever. There was also the race in Interlagos that he finished - in third, if I remember well - without brakes. At first his team did not believe it, but when they went to check the brakes were cold.

Skanda-Five
13-06-2015, 15:42
I loved watching Senna. He was something else. But would his racing have been as exciting without Prost?
Senna Vs Prost, Hunt Vs Lauda, Hamilton Vs Rosberg, Vettel Vs Alonso
I think that every great season in F1 has two major protagonists. The artist and the scientist.
Senna, Hamilton, Hunt, Alonso are the artists. They are passionate, seat-of-the-pants racers. They are always going to entertain.
Prost, Rosberg, Lauda, Vettel are the scientists. They are smart and precise. Personally I find them boring to watch but their skill in undeniable.
Combined, they are the perfect foil for one another.

His death, not only robbed the world of a great talent, it also had an effect on nephew Bruno.
His family put pressure on him not to race following Ayrton's death as I understand it.
Ayrton even quipped "If you think I'm good, wait until you see my nephew!"

m355y
13-06-2015, 19:53
Senna was brilliant, but I think time and his premature death (and the nature of it) have elevated him to this mystical level that makes it quite hard to objectively rate how good he was vs Prost, Mansell et al. I think over a single qualifying lap nobody came close to him, he was visibly more aggressive, more spectacular, plain faster than anyone else on a Saturday, with this really edgy, aggressive turn in that was a world away from Prost. On Sundays he was fantastic, but human. Prost used to beat him fair and square at times and Mansell was probably a better wheel-to-wheel racer. All were superb drivers.

Senna vs Schumacher for the 1994 title would have been amazing.

TheLethalDose
14-06-2015, 13:24
Are you a comedian? Really, driving today's car compared with a 90's F1 is like me saying I can drive a 2015 F1 car because I can do good times on a PC.
Very few (probably one a handfull) of today's F1 grid would be able to handle a 90's F1 car, and none like Senna did.

I like it when people who make condescending comments like the above and end up looking like the real comedian.

Apart from your wild speculation with no facts or evidence, you do realise that these guys didn't start in an F1 car and have a lot of ability to adapt to different machinery right?

AbeWoz
14-06-2015, 13:28
I'm sure this as been said, but in an interview with I believe Jackie Stewart in 1990: "By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it's possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it's impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I'm doing it right."

PeoplesChampion
15-06-2015, 03:48
Senna.. :)

oscarolim
15-06-2015, 09:19
I like it when people who make condescending comments like the above and end up looking like the real comedian.

Apart from your wild speculation with no facts or evidence, you do realise that these guys didn't start in an F1 car and have a lot of ability to adapt to different machinery right?

You can tell for the dose of whining that goes into driving the current cars, with pilots asking constantly what should they do, should they do this, do that.
Back on the times of real F1, there was none of this. It was down to raw talent.
So yes, I stand by my original statement.

JessicaWalter
15-06-2015, 16:08
ordered Senna on bluray and it's showing up today. i haven't seen it and im super pumped.

edit: it's not really ot 'cause it's not my opinion on his driving, but it kinda is 'cause my opinion on his driving made me super pumped to see the documovie.

oscarolim
15-06-2015, 16:16
You won't be disappointed. For a true fan, it can be quite emotional at times.

AbeWoz
15-06-2015, 16:20
ordered Senna on bluray and it's showing up today. i haven't seen it and im super pumped.

edit: it's not really ot 'cause it's not my opinion on his driving, but it kinda is 'cause my opinion on his driving made me super pumped to see the documovie.

it was on Netflix for a while, but I think they took it down. It is an incredible film. The tribute TopGear did on him a few years back is also excellent.

and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbKgW-gX7SI

Obsidian
15-06-2015, 17:01
Senna was obviously a great driver, and probably the fastest of all time. People do tend to forget how much he crashed though.

AdM1
16-06-2015, 03:02
He knew that by putting himself in a position there would be an accident that the other driver would give in first, in other words he was prepared to crash/die to win or take the position.

I'm too young to remember him in F1 but I've watched many videos and films etc on him. What I love about him though is his personality he was inspirational, the sport was everything to him and he was amazing at it. Such a shame he had to pass as it would be interesting to see where he would have come to by now.

PureMalt77
16-06-2015, 14:03
ordered Senna on bluray and it's showing up today. i haven't seen it and im super pumped.

edit: it's not really ot 'cause it's not my opinion on his driving, but it kinda is 'cause my opinion on his driving made me super pumped to see the documovie.

The movie is good, although they portrait Prost as some kind of real enemy. Unfortunately, is hard to put someones entire life in 2h.

If you speak/understand Portuguese, you should read his biography, called "Ayrton Senna - O Herói Revelado" from Ernesto Rodrigues. From the book's recension (the best I could translate to...)
This biography tries to bring the reader closer into Ayrton Senna's intimacy - his smile, his sadness, and the unforgettable impact he left to our lives. This book, from journalist Ernesto Rodrigues, excites and surprises by revealing many unknown episodes of the personal and professional life of the three time F1 champion. Conceived, produced and written in the delicate and exciting edge between Ayrton and Senna, the person and the sportsman, the man and the celebrity; it tries to reveal enigmas, bypass the myth created around the pilot, showing a deeper portrait of Ayrton Senna as a man, son, boyfriend and friend - with his virtues and flaws, his secrets and manias, joy and frustrations. Result of thoroughly research and more than 200 interviews, the author tells each victorious stage of Senna's career and reveals unknown difficulties and overcoming difficulties, friendship and intrigues, loneliness and love in the life if an icon to the Brazilian people.

Anyway, with some free time I can publish here some short stories from this book, if you guys are interested :-D

A short one: Driving in the rain (don't remember if this passage was on the movie though)
While racing karts in Sao Paulo, where he grew up, he showed from the start that he had talent, but he had a problem: he just could not even finish a race under rain, and in SP, it tends to rain a lot.
He was obsessed with this fact, and every time the rain started, he would take his Kart to the track...
He showed his abilities over time, probably the first time the world really paid attention to this name, was not even winning his first GP, Estoril (Portugal) '85 in rainy conditions, but his 1st season, 1984 racing for Toleman @Monaco. Heavy rain, he was 2nd (after starting from 13th) and approaching Alan Prost quickly, when race was stopped. That half race costed Prost the championship to Lauda by half a point...

1984 Monaco Grand Prix (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Monaco_Grand_Prix)

Sonic6L
16-06-2015, 15:00
Senna was a legendary driver. Imagine if he was still around today!

Skanda-Five
16-06-2015, 15:05
I agree m355y, objective analysis is virtually impossible.
Anyone who could have kept Schumacher honest for 7 seasons would have been welcome to F1.

rotorrian
16-06-2015, 15:21
You'll love this video then Ian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEFDfctC_6M


Best bits, changing gear from 1st to 2nd out of Lowes (as it was then) with one hand on the wheel countersteering.

Ian Bell
16-06-2015, 15:23
You'll love this video then Ian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEFDfctC_6M

Great video, thanks Rotorrian.

agentbeef
16-06-2015, 15:48
I agree m355y, objective analysis is virtually impossible.
Anyone who could have kept Schumacher honest for 7 seasons would have been welcome to F1.

to be fair schuey was gifted 3 titles because of Ferrari reliability which no one else could match .my thoughts senna was the son of zeus sent to show us all how it should be done.

justonce68
16-06-2015, 15:54
Senna was a legend no doubt, as was Fangio, Clark, Schumacher, how would they compare in the same car in the same era, its impossible to say, Senna would no doubt have a greater will to win though.

Its like comparing Ali too Tyson.

m355y
16-06-2015, 16:50
to be fair schuey was gifted 3 titles because of Ferrari reliability which no one else could match .my thoughts senna was the son of zeus sent to show us all how it should be done.

I don't think Schumacher was gifted much if anything. 2000 was fair and square vs Hakkinen. 2003 Raikkonen almost nicked the title through sheer consistency after Ferrari started badly with the old car. 2001, 2002, 2004 were utter domination. 1995 was domination, 94 he won despite missing races.

I think Senna was better, but I find it hard to take anything away from Schumi's career record. For Adelaide 94 see Suzuka 1990.

JessicaWalter
16-06-2015, 19:20
im 2/3 of the way through the long version, "Ayrton Senna Beyond the Speed of Sound," and i still wish there was a longer version to watch. his driving, and approach to the sport, are intoxicating and charismatic. it makes you feel like no matter how hard you're trying, however much skill you have, there is something you can improve and you owe it to yourself to see how close you can get to perfection (no one is perfect and im not claiming Ayrton was, but he's as close as I've ever seen, regarding car control and driving).

mcarver2000
17-06-2015, 13:38
Any guess as to who got #1?

Formula 1's Greatest Drivers (http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=40) AUTOSPORT presents the top 40 greatest Formula 1 drivers of all time as voted by over 200 drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship.

Ryno917
17-06-2015, 22:23
Senna had a ridiculous amount of talent. Absolutely no one can deny it. He can't be compared to drivers of either eras directly, of course, because of how different the cars, tracks and sport are, but to me his huge level of aggression (seriously, he blatantly took cars out) will always keep him from being #1 in my mind. For me, that honor goes to Jim Clark.

Clark was the fastest driver of his era. But not only that, he was very easy on the car while being very fast. And all of his incredible speed, finesse and on track performance was done while being a perfect gentleman on the track. You always knew he would race you cleanly. No one will ever be able to tell if, in raw talent, one was better than the other - there's no possible way to judge that. But the difference between the two was how they got there. Clark was clean, Senna was not. And for that reason, Senna is not #1 in my opinion.

Eric Rowland
18-06-2015, 02:29
Ayrton was the first really super quick driver to have his exploits fully documented for all to see and remember. The video of Ayrton driving the JPS Lotus Turbo in qualifying at Adelaide 1985 (1200 bhp btw) is an excellent example of what he could do. John Watson followed Ayrton at Brands Hatch 1985 and admitted his career in F1 was finished because he could not do the things Senna was doing with the car. (Villeneuve was like that to a certain degree...Gilles that is. (see Watkins Glen practice 1979...wet...12 secs quicker than next guy). Ayrton drove the way he drove, against certain drivers, to gain a psychological advantage. Mansell was having none of it, Prost didn't want to get involved in it, M Brundle got the brunt of it in F3. It was unnecessary and a shame that Ayrton drove the way he sometimes did. But he damn sure got us to watch every time he raced.
Further observations...are or were there any drivers who thought Senna was dirty? Yeah, he was tough, you have to be to be successful. Have Prost, Brundle, Mansell, Berger, Patrese, Schumacher, Warwick, or any others ever stated Ayrton was dirty? It's a tough game. He took it to another level.
Eddie Irvine once said that Senna and Schumacher drove the car "every millimeter" whereas Eddie said he could drive the car "every meter". Interesting!

PureMalt77
29-06-2015, 14:10
Keeping up my promised series of short Senna stories, this time I will not post much words. Just watch it!

Australia '93, after his last victory and last race for McLaren... Simply the Best!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJzll39HljA

Konan
29-06-2015, 16:49
To answer your question Cudirage, in my opinion, no one came close and no one ever will.

Exactly!

ardic
01-07-2015, 13:20
If you are searching for answers,just look at monaco gp,jeremy clarkson went for answers and even he could not believe what he saw,Senna's Mclaren wheel was touching the edge of the barrier when turning,just go to youtube and write jeremy clarkson Senna,and you guys can find all the answers you are searching for,many drivers this day take the example of Senna even Valentino Rossi's idol was Senna..

xautos
01-07-2015, 15:53
I'm going to go ahead and assume that all or a very big majority of us know who Ayrton Senna was and have an understanding of his F1 career. My question is, do you guys think his driving style was too reckless? I think there does come a point where you just shouldn't go for the gap because it's just too small and the risk/reward chance drastically decreases but obviously this meant nothing to Ayrton because he was just OBSESSED with winning, it was all he cared about and if hitting the other guy is what was needed he would do it like he did to Alain Prost. There is no doubting his amazing driving abilities and he is my personal idol when it comes to auto racing and how one should drive with passion and desire, but I think sometimes Ayrton was in way over his head but somehow, without his nearly kamikaze attitude he just wouldn't be Senna...

not everytime he drove like a mad man, sometimes it was prost driving crazy. remember those suzuka incidents between the two of them? but yeah, he had this driving style that was just a cut above every other time when he had the ability. but canonising him in such a way though? the thing is that sebastian vettel won 4 times with red bull because he had the best car like michael schumacher. now senna also had a particularly loyal teammate in gerhard berger in mclaren. aside from that, he never really had a teammate that showed him his skills. i mean a senna prost line up would of been epic, but if it were not for prost who had the ability to choose his teammate, they probably would of had the chance to show the explosive abilities of both in williams. the thing for me is that while senna is incredibly fast he never really had a teammate that outshone him to any significant amount to wonder if he really was that good.

Stag
07-07-2015, 06:00
Brazilian grojean
Most exciting driver ever and had a lot to do with maybe the best road car ever made. IMO

KK78
07-07-2015, 07:40
Of the great Grand Prix drivers each falls into one of two stalls, there are the technical tacticians (Prost, Alonso, Vettel) and there are those who have an almost extra level of on the edge 'instinct'- in this latter category I would put Hamilton, Schumacher and of course Senna- each possessing insane levels of skills, lightening reactions and the all important 'lunatic fringe', that split second decision making to go for a move that no one else sees, with a small pinch of cunning and calculation thrown in.


All great drivers then, amongst many others, but those with in the 'instinct' will prevail predominantly, even without the fastest car- Senna sits atop this podium and while one can say it is difficult and somewhat subjective to say he is the greatest of all time because of how the sport has changed you can't say he isn't either- and of course there is the fact he is the greatest of all time of course ;)

Few drivers take the breath away like Senna, closest for me would be Lewis or Schuie, or Colin McCrae or Seb Loeb but that's a more muddy variant.

Porkncheese
08-07-2015, 16:38
Someone made agood point that he did have quite a few crashes. You can see this by the fact he has more pole positions than race wins.

However I began watching F1 when I was 12yo. I would record late nite races to watch the next day. And I did this only because of Senna. He was just so intense, so brilliant, so entertaining.

I loved him so much im still dirty with Williams and F1 with the way his final crash was handled. Still to this day we don't have a definite answer while Williams still claim it was driver error which is an absolute joke. The steering failed. It is clear to see in the cockpit view.

Many have said Schumacer would not have won 7 titles and I agree. I will go further as to say Ferrari would have hired Senna and he would have won at least 5 more titles.

For me Senna is number one. I put Fangio in 2nd place and Schui in 3rd

Konan
08-07-2015, 18:26
Probably yeah. Watching him, Alain Prost and Mansell was fun. But I took an odd liking to Damon Hill. I sort of always knew he never had the greatest of natural talent but I always backed him.

Don't forget Niki Lauda ;-)

gookiecrunch
19-07-2015, 20:19
(Didn't mean to quote)
He was the best driver of his time.
Comparisons are pointless because they will never happen... Do we really believe rosberg is faster than Schumacher.. schumi walked away, then came back to a different f1. Rosberg beat Schumacher then Hamilton wasted rosberg.. so does everyone think Schumacher is Hamilton's bitch? No.
do we believe a turtle can beat a squid in a bobsled race?

Robhd
19-07-2015, 20:37
I saw Senna both in F1 and earlier in his career.. Blindingly quick but a deeply flawed driver in my opinion. His demise was sad and untimely, but in truth i can't say unexpected... My other half Lynne adored him and still does and we have very different takes on him... But agree he was hugely talented and very, very fast!

That God stuff with him both scared me and i still believe put others beside himself at stupid levels of risk on occasion... Driving Prost virtually into the pitwall is still one of the stupidest and most unacceptable things i have yet seen... And i really hope not to see anything worse!

Sampo
19-07-2015, 20:37
I liked Senna at first, but the will to win at any cost, even with unsportsmanlike conduct took him down a notch in my opinion. If you can't win within the rules, you're not the winner. I've followed F1 since 1982, because I saw Rosberg win. I still remember watching the Ceasar's Palace race under the livingroom table. :)

TheReaper GT
19-07-2015, 20:48
Abandon a race, park the car alongside the track and run to free a competitor from a burning car sounds very sportsman behaving for me.

Innerspace_HQ
19-07-2015, 20:51
Abandon a race, park the car alongside the track and run to free a competitor from a burning car sounds very sportsman behaving for me.

He had his moments lol.

MrFlibble81
20-07-2015, 11:41
I honestly thought he was a bit reckless. That wanting to win at any cost mentality that he had was a bit much a lot of the time.

I mean he was quick but, reckless.

PureMalt77
20-07-2015, 16:05
I think reckless is a bit strong, but indeed his obsession caused him to be a bit non-sportsman in some events. He did got better over time.

Another of my "short stories", catching up with his obsession:

It was '93, and he wanted a winning car at any cost. He did not want just a winning car, he wanted to race for Williams at any price, he even told Frank Williams that he would race for free.
But there was a problem: Prost was there and he promised himself to NEVER race in the same team with Senna anymore (McLaren was pain enough). He even had it on contract. And that was the biggest problem for Frank Williams.... .

During the negotiations, one night Flavio Briatore tried to reach Senna and could not. So he managed to talk to Galvao Bueno (a commentator from the Brazilian TV and a personal friend of Senna), and told him: "please tell Senna to not close any deal with anyone. I want him at Benetton, and he will have a car to be champion next year."

When Bueno could reach Senna, it was too late: he had signed a deal with Williams. The rest of the story you already know...
- Prost left (probably he did not even had a choice);
- Schumacher was champion with Benetton;
- Williams, his "dream car" was no good in '94, which he discovered paying with his life.

TheReaper GT
20-07-2015, 16:09
I think reckless is a bit strong, but indeed his obsession caused him to be a bit non-sportsman in some events. He did got better over time.

Another of my "short stories", catching up with his obsession:

It was '93, and he wanted a winning car at any cost. He did not want just a winning car, he wanted to race for Williams at any price, he even told Frank Williams that he would race for free.
But there was a problem: Prost was there and he promised himself to NEVER race in the same team with Senna anymore (McLaren was pain enough). He even had it on contract. And that was the biggest problem for Frank Williams.... .

During the negotiations, one night Flavio Briatore tried to reach Senna and could not. So he managed to talk to Galvao Bueno (a commentator from the Brazilian TV and a personal friend of Senna), and told him: "please tell Senna to not close any deal with anyone. I want him at Benetton, and he will have a car to be champion next year."

When Bueno could reach Senna, it was too late: he had signed a deal with Williams. The rest of the story you already know...
- Prost left (probably he did not even had a choice);
- Schumacher was champion with Benetton;
- Williams, his "dream car" was no good in '94, which he discovered paying with his life.

Amazing how things can develop in bad way because of bad communications.

Off topic: Both Bueno's sons are race drivers, Cacá is a multiple times Brazil Stock Car champion and is racing Blanc Pain in a all Brazilian team that have two BMW Z4 GT3. I don't Like Cacá, he is a good driver but a complete tool, acts like a child every single race, blames the team for bad results and never step up to admit the mistakes he made on the track. Popó still racing Stock Car and I don't find him good enough to be anywhere else.. :D

Bluedice
20-07-2015, 16:51
Alain Prost on Senna

http://youtu.be/A6QQs-yOMtw
http://youtu.be/A6QQs-yOMtw


http://youtu.be/B19rS6OfciI
http://youtu.be/B19rS6OfciI

PureMalt77
21-07-2015, 08:55
I've seen this vids before. In some previous post I mentioned that I did not like the Senna Movie so much. One of the aspects is that they portrayed Prost really as the real villain, and that was really not the case.

Take the Suzuka incidents, if I analyze them today, should be: Senna wins the 1st, and should be disqualified in the 2nd.

The first time, he "went for a gap that exists", had his car in the inside of the curve, and Prost (as he says in the video), closed the door. Crash was imminent. You already lose time with the whole incident, stop to replace the front wing and still win the race, and is disqualified because of chicane-cutting is a joke... Here were other "forces" at play... Senna should be champion that year.

The second time is clear that he throws his car into Prost. Honestly he should be penalized like Schumacher against Villeneuve ('97 if I'm not wrong...)
But that 2nd incident probably would not have happened if there wasn't the 1st incident.
The 2nd incident very likely would not have happened, had Senna started on the clean-side of the track.

At the end of the day, 1:1, each got a championship, and Senna said that missed him live from his cockpit in 94. I bet they would have turned best friends today...

_-GearHead-_
25-07-2015, 22:13
senna sucked

Konan
26-07-2015, 06:26
senna sucked

Blasfemie!

Linus27
26-07-2015, 08:36
Someone made agood point that he did have quite a few crashes. You can see this by the fact he has more pole positions than race wins.

However I began watching F1 when I was 12yo. I would record late nite races to watch the next day. And I did this only because of Senna. He was just so intense, so brilliant, so entertaining.

I loved him so much im still dirty with Williams and F1 with the way his final crash was handled. Still to this day we don't have a definite answer while Williams still claim it was driver error which is an absolute joke. The steering failed. It is clear to see in the cockpit view.

Many have said Schumacer would not have won 7 titles and I agree. I will go further as to say Ferrari would have hired Senna and he would have won at least 5 more titles.

For me Senna is number one. I put Fangio in 2nd place and Schui in 3rd

A report came out a few years back that Senna was going to Ferrari in 1996 instead of Schumacher.

Psychomatrix
26-07-2015, 09:17
That's only rumors. I don't believe that senna will have big success with ferrari. The success from ferrari in the early 2000's based not only on one driver. It was a constellation of schumachern, brawn and byrne that gives ferrari that boost and not be forgotten jean todt.
Senna was a very introverted person and he never had that emotional connection to his teams like schumacher have to benetton and ferrari. Senna like more the english teams and the way they work. Thats the feeling I had. So I have my doubts that senna would go to ferrari in 96. senna wished always to drive for williams. Maybe eccelstone wished that he go to ferrari because it's god for the show. But senna looked always for perfection and ferrari was in 96 far away from that. I'm not sure that brawn and byrne would go to ferrari without schumacher.

Btw senna was a class of its own. That he showed clearly as he fighted 84 in the toleman for the victory in monaco. Then the three years by lotus. Unforgotten his first victory in estoril as he drove circles around the others. That victory weight much more than the one in donigton because the mclaren had 1993 a very good tcs but in 85 he had a renault turbo beast behind his back and controlled it without tcs. The pole positions he drove for lotus are legendary because there he showed the world that he's the best.

soufian elamriti
06-08-2015, 09:12
400 mil $ to children thats all i have to say about senna

TrevorAustin
06-08-2015, 11:25
400 mil $ to children thats all i have to say about senna

Sounds like Michael Jackson

soufian elamriti
06-08-2015, 11:42
He was big on charity, but didn’t want people to know.
After Senna's death, it was discovered that he had donated an estimated $400 million of his personal fortune to children's charities, a fact that during his life he had kept secret.

Psychomatrix
06-08-2015, 11:56
400 mil $ to children thats all i have to say about senna

schumacher spend a lot of his money to for social things and other drivers and stars doing this too. So that's nothing special and most of the money came after his dead. In my eyes it's only human to give something back when you earn a lot of money. At the other hand he earn a lot of money with merchandise. And mostly of the customers for that merchandise was poor kids who dreamed to become that famous and rich like senna. That they can break out of their lifes. Senna was a buisnessman and to give nothing back of the profit would be inhuman. theres always two sides of the medal. In the states are so many charitable events and most of the organizers are rich people who scream if they must pay a penny more taxes. In my eyes its everybodys duty who stands in publicity to do something to make out this world a better place for poor people. Sorry for the off topic

PureMalt77
22-01-2016, 17:51
Old thread I decided to revive with a short vid I've seen!

And no, it has nothing to do with his driving...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY9pcrTz6R0

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
23-01-2016, 01:17
My question is, do you guys think his driving style was too reckless? I think there does come a point where you just shouldn't go for the gap because it's just too small and the risk/reward chance drastically decreases but obviously this meant nothing to Ayrton because he was just OBSESSED with winning, it was all he cared about and if hitting the other guy is what was needed he would do it like he did to Alain Prost.
Nah. If you watch the non-highlight-reel stuff, he was just good, alone on the circuit 99% of the time (gaining time with a good car *or* in the rain), and as others have alluded to, Prost was debatably more into crashing into Senna than the other way around.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
23-01-2016, 04:53
Senna's racing may have at times been a bit questionable, but Senna's driving was always spectacular.

KkDrummer
23-01-2016, 19:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

Senna driving an NSX....a devil on track! As a racing driver he had only on thing in mind: winning and he would do anything to achieve it....as a person: a great human being!

KasperVJensen
02-02-2016, 00:41
Genius footwork. Even better shoe/sock combo.

Suffered a bit from tunnel vision when racing, but I suppose that's what made him exciting.

I believe there are a handful of extremely gifted drivers today, but with the amount of electronics and fluff involved, we won't see their talent in comparison to their rivals as much.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
02-02-2016, 10:08
Suffered a bit from tunnel vision when racing
Example, please. Show me when Senna was ignoring his environment and screwed up as a result.

There's a lot of "He's great but...", when I think it should be "He's great and...". As in "He's great and therefore he laps faster and therefore he passed more drivers and therefore there were more chances for contact and therefore he statistically had more contact than average."

m355y
02-02-2016, 12:48
Example, please. Show me when Senna was ignoring his environment and screwed up as a result.

There's a lot of "He's great but...", when I think it should be "He's great and...". As in "He's great and therefore he laps faster and therefore he passed more drivers and therefore there were more chances for contact and therefore he statistically had more contact than average."

Reference to Monaco 1988, surely? That's part of the Senna legend that race. He was leading by miles, often full seconds quicker than the rest per lap, then stuffed it into the wall. Afterwards he admitted that he was driving totally subconsciously, as if he was in a tunnel.

Obviously being Monaco, for some of the lap he actually was in a tunnel. But you get the point!

KasperVJensen
02-02-2016, 14:16
That's a good point.

I just think that sometimes he took unnecessary chances when you consider how fast he was. Having said that... That mentallity is what made him who he was. For better or for worse, which is obviously hard to judge from our armchairs.

A spectacular driver, whichever way you look at it.

KkDrummer
02-02-2016, 14:38
Senna would never settle for second place in a race...he always pushed hard. Look at F1 nowadays and you won't drivers or even teams like that...

MaximusN
02-02-2016, 15:20
Senna would never settle for second place in a race...he always pushed hard. Look at F1 nowadays and you won't drivers or even teams like that... That trait becomes a fault when you don't settle for first place. ;)

And F1 nowadays has useless chewing gum tires that disintegrate when you're not very sweet with sugar on top. So they have to drive well within limits or you end up destroying them and/or their race. And that would be stupid. Luckily Bernie(the same person that asked for the chewing gum) noticed that's a problem too, so we might get 'normal' tires in a not too far future.

PPPMAT
02-02-2016, 16:01
Senna had major talent and was the best of his generation for me. The record books don't show how much faster than Prost he was. Personally I still prefer Schumacher due to his blatant cheating (which I found amusing) and quite incredible ability to win in cars that really shouldn't be able to.

Anyway back to Senna................

Innerspace_HQ
02-02-2016, 16:52
Luckily Bernie(the same person that asked for the chewing gum) noticed that's a problem too, so we might get 'normal' tires in a not too far future.

I think that sentence in itself pretty much says the opposite of what you're saying (and hoping for, like the rest of us). He wanted it - he got it, but now there's backlash and he's saying he doesn't want it. All this after signing a new contract with no doubt effervescent aplomb. Total d*ck. Bernie, not you ;)

Sorry - I moved off topic - I actually thought this was the F1 dead thread... d'oh!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
02-02-2016, 17:51
Reference to Monaco 1988, surely? That's part of the Senna legend that race. He was leading by miles, often full seconds quicker than the rest per lap, then stuffed it into the wall. Afterwards he admitted that he was driving totally subconsciously, as if he was in a tunnel.
I had thought he was referring to qualifying there...Yeah, I believe so: http://jalopnik.com/5814087/chatting-about-ayrton-sennas-greatest-qualifying-lap

My educated guess is that he crashed in the race simply because he was on the limit and the limit changed, like there was a little less grip than he expected at one moment. In retrospect, going slower was probably in order, because he had a good lead.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
04-02-2016, 19:24
The record books don't show how much faster than Prost he was.Quickly looking at the two years they were in the same team, Prost won Senna in qualifying on four occasions, usually by a tenth or so (one instance was almost half a second though). That means Senna beat Prost in qualifying roughly 28 times, and while I haven't run the exact numbers, the average difference seemed to settle to around half a second (lots of occasions of being more than a second faster). So in all out speed, especially over a single qualifying lap, Senna was supreme.

m355y
04-02-2016, 20:28
To be fair, Prost often lost out to Senna by a second on Saturday then come the race matched or beat him. They didn't call Prost the professor for nothing. He'd meticulously plan out his race weekend at in 1988 and 89 he knew that the McLaren was so far ahead on one-lap pace that he could take it relatively easy and still qualify second. Come race day he'd magically be right on Senna's gearbox, on some occasions he'd leave Senna standing. Prost was no mug. He more than held his own against Senna. But on one-lap speed I doubt there's anyone ever to match Senna.

I remember F1 Racing a few years ago tried to list the top 20 "fastest" drivers of all time (as opposed to best) and found it really, really hard. How do you quantify it? Ronnie Peterson was spectacular as hell but often outqualified by his team-mate. Gilles Villeneuve? Michael Schumacher? Mika Hakkinen? Senna's speed was pure and absolute, everyone secretly dreams of being Senna rather than Prost; everybody wants to be the fastest rather than necessarily the best......don't they?

Josh Whitcombe
04-02-2016, 20:39
I don't think it's just his sheer talent and speed behind the wheel, and that determination to win, that has made him such a legend, it was his passion for racing and for the sport of F1. Senna oozed passion from every pore, and it showed, and he was also an incredibly generous person that tried his best to give back to the Brazilian people. Sure he may have pushed too hard at times, but that is bound to happen when you danced as closely with the absolute limit as Senna did, at the end of the day nobody will ever top Senna for me, sure there may be faster, or more calculating drivers, but Senna just had that something special about him.

LukeC
04-02-2016, 23:25
Quickly looking at the two years they were in the same team, Prost won Senna in qualifying on four occasions, usually by a tenth or so (one instance was almost half a second though). That means Senna beat Prost in qualifying roughly 28 times, and while I haven't run the exact numbers, the average difference seemed to settle to around half a second (lots of occasions of being more than a second faster). So in all out speed, especially over a single qualifying lap, Senna was supreme.

To me it looks as though Prost's driving style was all about maximising speed over a long distance, whereas Senna was superior at maximising car performance over a shorter distance. I'm a fan of both, but I have a feeling that Prost was not at his best when he was at mclaren with Senna; I think he had already peaked at that point, plus he was dejected because his political manoeuvrings had stopped going his way.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
05-02-2016, 22:12
Just to note: I was talking purely in terms of all out speed, as I say in my last sentence. I think out of the two Senna was easily the faster car driver as such, but Prost was quite likely a better race driver.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
07-02-2016, 02:45
Just to note: I was talking purely in terms of all out speed, as I say in my last sentence. I think out of the two Senna was easily the faster car driver as such, but Prost was quite likely a better race driver.I watched a race where Prost stayed out in heavy rain on slicks for multiple laps, and crashed as a result. I think it was Interlagos 1993. Senna won.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqJMpCc1hlA

As a complete aside, I think what Senna missed about Prost was that he was a man. Devious maybe, and certainly stiff competiton, but he had human emotions. When Prost had gone and Schumacher arrived, it was like dealing with a robot who didn't care about anything but the official rewards like championship titles. Cheating, for example, wouldn't affect a robot's decisions at all unless there was a decent chance of getting caught. Honor wouldn't be a factor. So even though Senna "hated" Prost, and vice versa, racing between them was more sporting.

My view on Prost is that he was a very good driver/racer, but was simply outclassed by Senna. Not by a lot, but clearly. When you're actually in the position of being the best, and someone comes along who can beat you, it doesn't seem fair, subjectively. In order to admit that your opponent is better, your ego has to be pretty tough, typically because you have something else to fall back on. If you're only good at racing, a better racer is not something you want to encounter. Hence, Prost's animosity toward Senna, and Senna's eventual reciprocity of that. But after all, they still respected one another's talent, and Senna missed competing with it.

m355y
07-02-2016, 07:58
1993 isn't the best reflection of what Prost was as a driver. He won the World Championship that year because the car was massively better than the others and he had a rookie team-mate. He was in a lot of respects a pale imitation of his best that year.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
07-02-2016, 09:04
1993 isn't the best reflection of what Prost was as a driver. He won the World Championship that year because the car was massively better than the others and he had a rookie team-mate. He was in a lot of respects a pale imitation of his best that year.
I think I agree with that. But Prost crashed the "best" car and Senna won in a slow one at Interlagos, which I think shows that Senna's as good as they say he is.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
07-02-2016, 17:37
But Prost crashed the "best" car...... into a sideways Minardi that was blocking the road, in pouring rain. =)
... and Senna won in a slow one at Interlagos... ... and four other races. =)