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AfterAll14
08-06-2015, 10:28
Hi everyone!
Many people say rFactor 2 is an ultimate racing simulator.
In my personal opinion pCARS beats rFactor in every aspect of the game. But rFactor fans say that its physics is far ahead. I know that SMS team worked on GTR and GTR 2 which is based on rFactor engine, so it would be nice to hear comment from you guys about rFactor 2 physics and tyre model in compare to pCARS.
I personally made a comparison:

https://youtu.be/waPjS-caxDI?t=3m17s
In this video I rapidly turn steering wheel from one side to another. And it behaves very different in both games.
In rFactor front side of the car follows wheels and shaking, while back side of the car is not shaking.
In pCARS whole cars is shaking around some point in the middle of the car.
Both games supposed to have elastic tyre model. Why is a difference?
On gravel they behave very different too. In pCARS car drives more smoothly, while in rFactor it shakes a lot and fast.

Umer Ahmad
08-06-2015, 20:12
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/#more-6739

John Hargreaves
08-06-2015, 20:24
Hi everyone!
Many people say rFactor 2 is an ultimate racing simulator.
In my personal opinion pCARS beats rFactor in every aspect of the game. But rFactor fans say that its physics is far ahead. I know that SMS team worked on GTR and GTR 2 which is based on rFactor engine, so it would be nice to hear comment from you guys about rFactor 2 physics and tyre model in compare to pCARS.
I personally made a comparison:

https://youtu.be/waPjS-caxDI?t=3m17s
In this video I rapidly turn steering wheel from one side to another. And it behaves very different in both games.
In rFactor front side of the car follows wheels and shaking, while back side of the car is not shaking.
In pCARS whole cars is shaking around some point in the middle of the car.
Both games supposed to have elastic tyre model. Why is a difference?
On gravel they behave very different too. In pCARS car drives more smoothly, while in rFactor it shakes a lot and fast.

I think the behaviour of the chase cam has quite an influence on how those clips look, and it‘s difficult to tell what‘s what as that camera view is so artificial and locked to the car. I agree that iRacing, rFactor, AC, GSCE all have very positive qualities, but pCars is my favourite as best all rounder.

mister dog
27-09-2015, 17:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OvC_MdYsQM

GTsimms
27-09-2015, 17:42
I will need to move account to ssd drive, but the last build that I tried about 6-8 months ago. I was not impressed. I will give it a try possibly later today. Hope the key/account will transfer to steam

mister dog
27-09-2015, 17:48
There's a huge amount of modding content, and all around it's a well respected game with sim racers, so i might get it just to build my own classic car/ circuit paradise.

The whole '92 F1 lineup for example makes me feel very warm inside :) :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyWVSaVcVTc

GTsimms
27-09-2015, 18:12
The main thing is you can have ffb all day long, but having better tire physics ffb from the tires to the steering wheel can make a world of difference. I think all of these forums, where guys continue to bash Project Cars will learn. What SMS presented with this title. I was skeptical at first, but I think this title has just about nailed the car feel minus a few more tweaks.

NoBrakes
27-09-2015, 18:17
As with many moddable or mod dependent titles it very much depends on what cars and tracks you use in rF2. Graphics wise it couldn't compete with titles like pCARS or AC that make much use of the modern graphics options. But the driving physics could give one a blast if you choose the right car/track combo. I recently tested the ISI Nissan-350 on Spa (3rd party mod) and had a lot of fun together with the brilliant rF2-AI, not to mention that the sound of that ISI made Nissan is awesome ... and the 24h or VLN layout of the Nurburgring-Nordschleife in rF2 is something I really would like to have in pCARS, too ;)

mister dog
27-09-2015, 18:58
As with many moddable or mod dependent titles it very much depends on what cars and tracks you use in rF2. Graphics wise it couldn't compete with titles like pCARS or AC that make much use of the modern graphics options. But the driving physics could give one a blast if you choose the right car/track combo. I recently tested the ISI Nissan-350 on Spa (3rd party mod) and had a lot of fun together with the brilliant rF2-AI, not to mention that the sound of that ISI made Nissan is awesome ... and the 24h or VLN layout of the Nurburgring-Nordschleife in rF2 is something I really would like to have in pCARS, too ;)
AC, PCARS, RF2, R3R and SCE in your library and you can basically chose any car/track combo known to man. Now all i need is the time to be able to play lol.

Bkim
27-09-2015, 20:43
There is only one ultimate race experience and that is on track in real time. rF2 gives me complete freedom in tuning how i want the game to behave when racing: kind of pace car, speed of pace car. I am able to learn the AI to race faster laps. Im able to set every single aspect of AI behaviour. Etc etc. This all has one disadvantage: you need knowledge how to make backups, unpacking files, modifying files etc. Graphics wise it looks outdated compared to Pcars but as a racesim, for me, it is the most complete package i have ever seen as there are so many things you can tweak.

yusupov
27-09-2015, 20:57
dont like the thread title at all...instantly make this an antagonistic thing when we could just be saying rf2 is pretty freaking awesome. or not, whatever your opinion is, but why make a thread destined to devolve?

i do think the two are interesting to compare for a few reasons but even that im not going to go into here bc of what ppl will project. (uh no pun intended)

yusupov
27-09-2015, 21:02
AC, PCARS, RF2, R3R and SCE in your library and you can basically chose any car/track combo known to man. Now all i need is the time to be able to play lol.

and all of them feel & behave markedly different. which is why i think its strange when people latch onto a "one true sim" mentality (the hardcore AC & rf2 fans are who im thinking of for the most part). this is a golden age for simracing but in terms of accuracy? still in the dark ages, many different (constantly developing) interpretations out there, everyone often grasping in the dark whether they admit it or not.

nhitrac
27-09-2015, 21:22
rF2 visually is so fugly I couldn't get into it to enjoy the other aspects that it's now for.

Kinda like dating, if you're not visually attracted to the other person first you're highly unlikely going to be doing any of the "getting to know" them bit.

ttb57
27-09-2015, 21:44
Whilst I'm a huge fan of rF2 it's an unfair comparison at this point. One has had 3 1/2 years of development (post release), the other barely 5 months. rF2 shines in a number of areas but I see the potential in PCars and see no reason why they won't be as good or better over time. As to the graphics, when rF2 was released so many people still didn't have DX11 capable cards so I guess it was decided to stay with DX9 for now. I believe this will change as time goes on. I've heard a rumour that OpenGL might be on the cards but it's merely a rumour at this stage. I agree with mister dog, grab them all and have fun.

Cheesenium
28-09-2015, 03:14
AC, PCARS, RF2, R3R and SCE in your library and you can basically chose any car/track combo known to man. Now all i need is the time to be able to play lol.

Yeap, thats my "problem" now. Sometimes I sat in front of my PC wondering, do I want to do an endurance race with Road As in pcars or GT3 races on Spa in AC or Group 5s in R3E or DRM in GSCE or rallycross in Dirt Rally. Recently, I find myself playing more R3E as pcar's car list on Group A, DTM and Group 5 are a little too small for me. At least for me, R3E really complements almost every weakness with pcars. It even has a proper championship creator!

Each game has it's own unique strengths and weaknesses where at the end, it is hard to pick even a game to play. All of them are fun in different ways which is great. This is definitely the golden age of racing now.

It just something with rFactor 2 that I find it tough to get into that game. The car drives very well but I just can't find the interest to drive more than a lap in that game. While even GSCE that is literally a mod of rFactor felt more polished to play.

nhraracer
28-09-2015, 03:23
I hate these type of threads to pieces! They are subjective in nature.

Shinzah
28-09-2015, 03:45
Guys, the thread doesn't have to devolve into angry shouting of dissenting opinions.
Don't ring the fire bell on the second page. Threads like this can bring a lot of good to the community, too.

Nobody is fighting here, and for the most part whatever they like isn't becoming a shouting match of whose sim is particularly better.

Both RF2 and Pcars have merits. Personally I find Pcars more realistic, with possibly one of the best or the best tire models that simracing has seen yet.
But RF2 is a platform, and platforms can be improved upon. Modders can find creative ways around the already decent physics simulation to create other experiences, and it can be used as a low-level testbed for all kinds of things motorsport related. Lets not forget what titles like ARCA and Game Stockcar have done to the predecessor engine.

C3PO
28-09-2015, 06:36
Read this from a real life engineer comparing the physics of rF1 to a real formula car. rF2 of course an evolution (by quite some way) of rF1. Articles speak for themselves.

http://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close-enough/

https://drracing.wordpress.com/

Zanzibar
28-09-2015, 16:39
Neither game is bad. I don't think there is any reason (aside from hardware limitations) for a sim racer to not have both rFactor 2 and Project Cars in their inventory. Personally, I still prefer rFactor 2 but I enjoy other sims like PCars, RRRE and AC as well. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses but all are enjoyable.

GTsimms
28-09-2015, 16:46
AC, PCARS, RF2, R3R and SCE in your library and you can basically chose any car/track combo known to man. Now all i need is the time to be able to play lol.

All are in libraray, plus lots more. Even NFS titles, which the series could be renamed NFSR, "Need For Simulation Racing."

GTsimms
29-09-2015, 00:14
Downloading now, a lot better when you select to download cars and track at one time instead of one by one!

Urban Chaos 2.0
10-07-2016, 12:40
Definitely Project Cars. rFactor2 is still in development, and still needs a lot of work.

rosko
10-07-2016, 22:41
Read this from a real life engineer comparing the physics of rF1 to a real formula car. rF2 of course an evolution (by quite some way) of rF1. Articles speak for themselves.

http://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close-enough/

https://drracing.wordpress.com/

Interesting read. I wonder if pcars has a completely different approach or if they did similar testing?

hkraft300
11-07-2016, 17:19
SMS seem to do some serious leg work to get cars super accurate.
The tyres model seems a mystery though: or its a little dumbed down for the masses. I'd like them to be able to get some real race rubber and do some tests, or get data from race teams to match the in game tyres better. Though us mortals couldn't tell the difference in a 2% performance discrepancy from real vs virtual.

unknwn
12-07-2016, 20:07
I have seen pCars tire model being marketed as highly "advanced" however advanced doesn't necessary mean accurate, more advanced often means more complicated development (also can be seen with rF2 tire model - lack of modders working on tires because it's too complex/lacks documentation). It seems SETA tire model hasn't been calibrated/mastered to replicate RL specific tires behavior. There are issues with grip levels, camber issues, tire temps, tire wear/damage (or lack of). On the other hand older gen tire models have their own limitations/issues but are easier to calibrate for the realistic basics.

Ryzza5
12-07-2016, 23:42
For any that are interested details on SETA are available here

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/



Ultimately Ben and Nic (and some other dedicated members) do exert quite an influence as to how the tyres should feel and behave.

hkraft300
13-07-2016, 00:50
I think feedback from pro's is important to calibrate the tyre model along with data. Fine tuning.
At the conclusion of the patch 6 saga there was interesting hints on what's to come in future.
Along with improvement to weather and what not, I think we'll have plenty of fun and track drama to look forward to :)

Krus Control
13-07-2016, 02:53
Both are excellent. But I would personally say that I find rFactor 2 to be a more realistic experience. The SETA tire model is every bit as good as rFactor 2's, but I don't think it's been used to it's full capacity in PCARS 1. There has always been a problem of too much grip, especially during kinetic friction in every class. There are other issues as well. For instance, when the tires start warm they go through a pronounced cycle. I find that I have very similar incidents that are isolated to the first lap in every class at every track. There is a whole lot of fine tuning to be done in PCARS and if SMS can work out all of the kinks PCARS 2 has the potential to be the better sim I think. But rFactor 2 is in a better, more refined state right now that I feel reflects reality better than any other sim I've tried. I've switched 100% over to rFactor 2 after ~2500 hours in PCARS and have not looked back once.

Xraider
13-07-2016, 06:14
rF2 visually is so fugly I couldn't get into it to enjoy the other aspects that it's now for.

Kinda like dating, if you're not visually attracted to the other person first you're highly unlikely going to be doing any of the "getting to know" them bit.

x1000 this for me. People keep talking about immersion when talking about SIMs and mention FFB problems or how AI didn't auto move out of their way. Maybe I'm too new to sims in general, but...I have always put a huge amount of weight to graphical immersion and Project Cars has got that in spades. I won't race glorified 3d rectangles.

On a side note, I've seen someone compare iRacing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeehdVqncSc) (highly respected sim?) to Project Cars. Some guy started in Project Cars went to iRacing...didn't take him long to adjust. He basically said the feel of the cars was about 5% at most different. He couldn't tell the games apart for some track.

havocc
13-07-2016, 07:39
On a side note, I've seen someone compare iRacing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeehdVqncSc) (highly respected sim?) to Project Cars. Some guy started in Project Cars went to iRacing...didn't take him long to adjust. He basically said the feel of the cars was about 5% at most different. He couldn't tell the games apart for some track.

Maybe with exception of FFB that in iRacing tells you nothing about the car going to spin

Sankyo
13-07-2016, 08:07
...There has always been a problem of too much grip, especially during kinetic friction in every class.
Hmmm I don't really recognize this to be honest, especially not as a generic problem in pC1? IMO one of the areas that pCARS/STM needs to improve (and pC2 is already getting there) is the way tyres lose too much grip during sliding, and recover it too slowly.

Riccardo De Rosa
13-07-2016, 10:37
(and pC2 is already getting there).

Go go SMS :)

rosko
13-07-2016, 18:13
Hmmm I don't really recognize this to be honest, especially not as a generic problem in pC1? IMO one of the areas that pCARS/STM needs to improve (and pC2 is already getting there) is the way tyres lose too much grip during sliding, and recover it too slowly.

I agree with krus I think the grip is high in comparison to real life. But then one would need real side by side testing.

konnos
13-07-2016, 19:40
Too much grip? Maybe for some cars, but PCars leaves me with the feeling that cars, GT3 and below, slide way too easily and the grip and recovery of it is very sudden, too sudden for my skill anyway. GT3s are pretty solid to be honest, but they too can slide in some weird ways, with stock settings anyway. I can recall the BWM 1M losing grip at a slight turn at like 80km/h, it might be ab FFB issue, who knows, maybe a firmer wheel would remedy this feeling.

havocc
13-07-2016, 20:46
Too much grip? Maybe for some cars, but PCars leaves me with the feeling that cars, GT3 and below, slide way too easily and the grip and recovery of it is very sudden, too sudden for my skill anyway. GT3s are pretty solid to be honest, but they too can slide in some weird ways, with stock settings anyway. I can recall the BWM 1M losing grip at a slight turn at like 80km/h, it might be ab FFB issue, who knows, maybe a firmer wheel would remedy this feeling.

I have the same feeling, i have hard times catching oversteers in pc on fast cars while in other sims i feel i have more control over the car (even if lap times are slower than pc), also another thing i noticed is that if you try the Sauber C9 in PC and then AC you will notice that in AC the car is a monster and you have to be super gentle on throttle at corner exits while in PC feels a bit more "tame", now i've never driven a C9 irl (and i'm pretty sure nobody here did :D) so i can't tell wich game has the most accurate model...

konnos
13-07-2016, 21:09
Try taking some turns at Monza with slower cars like the FocusRS or similar road cars and tell me this is not some bullshit going on right there? It feels like i m drifting through half the slower turns there, the steering is quite vague and I feel like i m driving grandmas' shopping trolley. I m taking turns at like 120km/hr and it feels like i m drifting, just feels so wrong. This is something that AC gets right, it feels like the cars are planted and going where you are pointing them (generally). I don't like AC very much, but at least it feels like you are driving a car with some kind of capability, the slightest turn in PCars and you are semi-sliding.

Again, PCars is definitelly the better game, but I ve had this feeling almost through the beginning. I ve taken sharper turns with my sedan and I had no sliding... swear...

MrBlacky
13-07-2016, 21:32
rf2 physics highly depend on what car/mod you use and what state the tire model has. Same for AC, but here it's not that critical, because most of the GT cars have the latest tire model already. I like RaceRoom very much. Never had a better feeling for the car than in RaceRoom. Only thing I'm missing in R3E is some telemetry where you can actually see what the tire does.
You don't really know how much temperature is in the tire etc..

Pcars may has a "technically" complicated tire model, but it's one of the easiest to handle for a driver. I'm still speaking of GT3 cars because I've spend my 500 hours in these cars. But yeah, you don't need to manage your tires. Every race I've done was pedal to the metal. On some tracks tires getting a little hot, but when you don't look at the telemetry you cannot really feel the tires go off. And there is still no use for medium or hard tires. Softs are always the better choice.

Tire wear is the other thing. How the hell is it calculated? We discovered, when you simply drive through the pitlane you lose a certain amount of % tire wear. Why? When I was testint long runs, there was almost no difference in pushing the full stint and being very polite to the tires. Tire wear was almost the same. That's why I really don't think the tire model in its current state is good. It's very simple.
That Patch 6 Tire Update was one step in the right direction, but the casual player was overwhelmed by this. So it has to be changed back unfortunately.

And please don't call bs now. I know what I'm talking. I've spend almost 500 hours only in league races in one single car (Z4 GT3). I know this car.

havocc
13-07-2016, 22:42
That Patch 6 Tire Update was one step in the right direction, but the casual player was overwhelmed by this. So it has to be changed back unfortunately.



That's probably the price for a more "mainstream" sim, i'm sure that if you go on Rf2 forum and complain that tyres overheat when playing with a pad devs would probably laugh at you...
Again I'm not pointing my finger against anyone, just my opinion on the matter