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Mr Akina
20-05-2015, 22:19
This is not a moan... just a genuine query. According to your WMD member >Here< (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26424-Petition-for-SMS-to-fix-Circuit-of-Spa-Francorchamps!!!&p=929247&viewfull=1#post929247) this isn't a bug, but a purposeful addition to the Donington Park Circuit. Please could someone clarify why SMS has moved the Finish Line a few hundred yards down the road?

I know it's probably difficult to put it in its rightful place (a hundred yards BEFORE the Start Line), but why not at least keep the timing line at the Start Line position, like you have done with many other (incorrectly placed) Finish Lines? Rather than putting it all the way down towards Turn One?

Neither the National nor Grand Prix layouts use a finishing line here as all Finish Lines are located in-line with Race Control (in case power is lost to the timing gear and they have to manually record the winner) - which in Donington Park's case, is located above the first block of pit garages you'll see in the top right of this picture - hence why the Finish Line IS in a different place to the Start Line in real life... but nowhere near the one in game!

If this indeed a mistake or crossover to a historical layout, is there a plan to fix the current circuit?

Thanks :)

203766

PeteUplink
20-05-2015, 22:42
I've been wondering about this too. I've watched BTCC for over 20 years and the races always end at the finish line as far as I know, so I really don't see the logic in the current setup in the game. :confused:

Patrik Marek
20-05-2015, 22:48
well official map has the finish line close to pit exit,
so most likely there are different finish lines for different races

http://www.donington-park.co.uk/clientfiles/images/Circuit/Donington%20Map%202015.jpg

http://www.donington-park.co.uk/clientfiles/images/Enlarge_images/disabled_parking_large.jpg

Mr Akina
20-05-2015, 23:14
well official map has the finish line close to pit exit,
so most likely there are different finish lines for different races

By that logic, the start line should also be down by pit exit. In reality, for all car and bike races, the Finish Line is by the pit entrance (outside race control - for reasons previously stated) and the Start Line is where it is in-game. I'm sure anyone who's ever been to, or watched racing from Donington will confirm this. It's bizarre lol. You can even see the proper Finish Line in-game, it's halfway down the grid, before the Start Line.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpdxfe1QD58

Hengist
20-05-2015, 23:38
Great vid mate and happy memories from the event. :)

Pink_650S
21-05-2015, 00:01
This is a genuine question: Does it really matter all that much? :confused:
Really no offense!

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 00:09
This is a genuine question: Does it really matter all that much? :confused:
Really no offense!

None taken :) But if you go through all the trouble to design the track, why not make it right?

Roger Prynne
21-05-2015, 00:19
I remember that race and it was excellent.... but most BTCC races are.

See guys real life racers make mistakes and go of the track as well.... :onthego:

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 00:21
See guys real life racers make mistakes and go of the track as well.... :onthego:

That was no mistake :cool: Any ideas about that Finish Line Roger? Sorry to drag you into it lol

Roger Prynne
21-05-2015, 00:25
Yeah I know but I didn't know how else to put it in a short short sentence.

I have asked the question over on the WMD forums and the reply's at the moment are don't know as well... waiting to hear from a Dev.
I've been driving that track for 4 years and have gotten used to it myself... as do others.

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 00:36
Yeah I know but I didn't know how else to put it in a short short sentence.

I have asked the question over on the WMD forums and the reply's at the moment are don't know as well... waiting to hear from a Dev.
I've been driving that track for 4 years and have gotten used to it myself... as do others.

Thank you :)

Here's one of my photos from Donington.. You can just about make out that line. But you definitely wouldn't confuse it for a Start/Finish line lol! Which makes me think it's from a different version of the circuit....

203770

Pink_650S
21-05-2015, 00:56
Thank you :)

Here's one of my photos from Donington.. You can just about make out that line. But you definitely wouldn't confuse it for a Start/Finish line lol! Which makes me think it's from a different version of the circuit....

203770

I was about to ask where you got that M3?! ;) No kidding.

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 08:53
I was about to ask where you got that M3?! ;) No kidding.

Lol :)

Either way, can any Devs shed some light on this? Thanks

qbasiz
21-05-2015, 09:32
Is it me or is the start/finish wrong at Spa-Francorchamps aswell, irl its after the bus stop chicane and before la source.
In game its after la source, and before eau rouge? Maybe i'm missing something here, but it just feels like a strange decision.

Is it to avoid first corner collisions? https://youtu.be/O8Y5Co1kZjQ

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 09:37
Is it me or is the start/finish wrong at Spa-Francorchamps aswell, irl its after the bus stop chicane and before la source.

No, that's the F1/WEC start/finish. The one in pCARS is the GT/Club version. So it's technically still correct - Spa has two variations in real life... Donington doesn't lol

CTR69
21-05-2015, 09:48
It's the same in Monza, Spa and Nordschleife, but it could be other tracks also. Start and finish lines aren't one and the same, but finish is BEFORE the last grid place. Monza should stop timing soon after you exit the Parabolica. Spa soon after the bus stop chicane, Nordschleife right after the T13. But for example Imola and Mugello use the same line for start/finist. How was this not modelled and tested correctly?

Anyway, AC has this 100% correct.

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 10:11
It's the same in Monza, Spa and Nordschleife, but it could be other tracks also. Start and finish lines aren't one and the same, but finish is BEFORE the last grid place. Monza should stop timing soon after you exit the Parabolica. Spa soon after the bus stop chicane, Nordschleife right after the T13. But for example Imola and Mugello use the same line for start/finist. How was this not modelled and tested correctly?

Anyway, AC has this 100% correct.

Off topic and this was noted in the original post. This is about the finish line being in a completely different postcode.

qbasiz
21-05-2015, 10:23
No, that's the F1/WEC start/finish. The one in pCARS is the GT/Club version. So it's technically still correct - Spa has two variations in real life... Donington doesn't lol

Maybe there are still series that start there, but i've seen loads of races including F1/F3/ADAC GT Masters and all use the start/finish before la source.
Wasn't it the start of the old-lay out? I'm no expert but it just feels off to me
203841

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 10:27
It's wrong yes but not the end of the world.

No, not the end of the world in the grand scheme of things. But it is confusing why it has been like this for 4 years of development and never been questioned! There's so many other small things wrong with the tracks, but this one really stands out from the real world circuit.

CTR69
21-05-2015, 10:36
No, that's the F1/WEC start/finish. The one in pCARS is the GT/Club version. So it's technically still correct - Spa has two variations in real life... Donington doesn't lol

Start is placed correctly to avoid the lasource pileup, but timing/finish line isn't. Pcars simulates F1 and endurance, they should place it correctly. Seeings how detailed each track is, i'm surprised they made this wrong on many tracks.

It might be nitpicking for some, but it must be pointed out. This is a sim afterall.

yusupov
21-05-2015, 11:39
It's the same in Monza, Spa and Nordschleife, but it could be other tracks also. Start and finish lines aren't one and the same, but finish is BEFORE the last grid place. Monza should stop timing soon after you exit the Parabolica. Spa soon after the bus stop chicane, Nordschleife right after the T13. But for example Imola and Mugello use the same line for start/finist. How was this not modelled and tested correctly?

Anyway, AC has this 100% correct.

the question is not 'how' but 'why'. the OP (or their source) clearly has it correct, it is NOT a bug, its deliberate. what i dont understand is WHY. its no big deal if you dont know these tracks but if youve driven them in other sims it really throws you off for a bit. think about it, you are mentally geared to hit a certain point & that is your lap-time (if a hotlap) or the race, when you hit that point & its not over its quite jarring.

i cant understand this decision & i really cant believe no ones offered an explanation bc its obviously been done intentionally.

Mr Akina
21-05-2015, 14:48
Are there any Mods that can delete these pointless bitching posts and keep this thread on topic? I asked a valid question because I'm a race fan and had never seen this timing line, despite taking a photo of it on page two.

Like I said, it's not a moan, I'm just curious after it was pointed out to be a deliberate addition.

MysterG
21-05-2015, 16:25
Clean up on aisle 4
Locked temporarily.

MysterG
21-05-2015, 16:34
And open again.

Lets keep it civil, and on topic.

You caught me in a moment of weakness, I will not make a habit of cleaning threads.

Patrik Marek
22-05-2015, 01:38
@mysterG if you deleted my post explaing the E92 M3 and saying that we have a GT4 version of that, since it was off top, why did you leave the " where did you get that M3 " post?

WhiteNinja636
23-05-2015, 10:38
I have another point to add to this thread.
Starting in formula rookie the starting lights are behind the grid so there is no way to see them even if you are in the back of the grid.

Mr Akina
05-06-2015, 09:15
I have another point to add to this thread.
Starting in formula rookie the starting lights are behind the grid so there is no way to see them even if you are in the back of the grid.

Like WhiteNinja636, now I've switched to full sim mode (all HUD off), the fact that the Start/Finish line is in the wrong place is even more apparent.

206233

However, when you drop back to 22nd on the grid. You can clearly see the REAL start line, starting lights and pole position grid spot (to the right of my actual position)... There aren't even grid markings forward of this start line! So how do/would the cars line up?

206234

Is this circuit something that can be corrected?

qbasiz
05-06-2015, 10:52
Like WhiteNinja636, now I've switched to full sim mode (all HUD off), the fact that the Start/Finish line is in the wrong place is even more apparent.

However, when you drop back to 22nd on the grid. You can clearly see the REAL start line, starting lights and pole position grid spot... There aren't even grid markings forward of this start line! So how do/would the cars line up?



The start/finish is clealry off, i suspect its to avoid A.I. getting tangled up in last (roberts?) chicane with large starting grids?
Hopefully this is something that can be adressed in the future

Mr Akina
05-06-2015, 11:18
Hi, that's strange! The designers for the game came to the circuit and took the data so it's unusual that this has happened! Thanks for raising it to our attention.

Donington Park

So a chap at Donington Park wasn't aware of any track changes when I spoke to them. If it's an AI issue, then that's an AI issue - they didn't make Azzure wider because FA and LMP cars couldn't get around it lol

softy94
05-06-2015, 17:16
finish line is far earlier in real life than in the game

GT_Racing
05-06-2015, 17:27
We had a discussion about Spa on another topic. The timing line that is currently used it right after the last chicane of the lap. In the game they moved it to the other side of the hairpin (la source). People have been using GT endurance racing as an example as why it should be after La Source, but they are disregarding the fact that the BES only starts directly before Eau Rouge due to the huge grid. They use the regular (before La Source) timing line during and at the end of the race. There is no reason why the finish line should be on the lower pit.

qbasiz
05-06-2015, 22:28
Yes the reactions on Spa start/finish topic surprised me aswell, normaly the mods are quite helpfull.. now, not so much.
At least they responded on that topic, the Donnington start and timing line is obviously in the wrong place.
Atleast put it on the the known issues/to do list..

Mr Akina
06-06-2015, 07:44
At least they responded on that topic, the Donnington start and timing line is obviously in the wrong place.
Atleast put it on the the known issues/to do list..

At least Spa is correct (for one variation of racing), Donington is just plain wrong and Donington have confirmed this.

LeMansIndy500
10-06-2015, 17:59
Does anybody else have the same issue as me whereby the start/finish line at Donington GP (not sure if it is the same as the National Circuit) is registered as being further up the straight than the line itself?

Pink_650S
10-06-2015, 18:02
Well, we all have the same game, so the S/F lines are the same for everyone :p
This has already been mentioned.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?26816-Donington-Park-Please-explain!

LeMansIndy500
10-06-2015, 18:03
Well, we all have the same game, so the S/F lines are the same for everyone :p
This has already been mentioned.

Good point lol. Was going to see if anybody else had the same before seeing if I could it added to @elmo 's list :) Thanks for your reply.

DarC
10-06-2015, 19:35
Also the Sector 2 line is in the wrong place on the mini-map (or its in the right place just the sector time flashes up later, after the chicane)

LeMansIndy500
10-06-2015, 21:43
Also the Sector 2 line is in the wrong place on the mini-map (or its in the right place just the sector time flashes up later, after the chicane)

I'll admit I haven't noticed that one as I don't have the mini-map on the HUD.

Bealdor
10-06-2015, 21:48
Threads merged.

LeMansIndy500
10-06-2015, 21:52
Threads merged.

Thanks Bealdor. I'll hold my hand up and admit I didn't do a seach for the topic properly.

Do you know if it is being fixed? I've read through the topic and couldn't find a clear answer.

DarC
10-06-2015, 22:02
I'll admit I haven't noticed that one as I don't have the mini-map on the HUD.

Think its the GP track

Mr Akina
11-06-2015, 16:41
Do you know if it is being fixed? I've read through the topic and couldn't find a clear answer.

I don't think SMS will be fixing it - there doesn't seem to be any interest from the people at the top.

apexatspeed
11-06-2015, 17:18
I don't think SMS will be fixing it - there doesn't seem to be any interest from the people at the top.

You've got interest from me if that counts. There is no reason for it to be in the wrong place. We need to keep this thing going until someone takes notice. I assume if enough players want it corrected they will take a look at it.

Mr Akina
13-06-2015, 23:59
You've got interest from me if that counts. There is no reason for it to be in the wrong place. We need to keep this thing going until someone takes notice. I assume if enough players want it corrected they will take a look at it.

If it's wrong, it should be corrected, regardless of how many people moan about it. It should never have been designed that way! Hopefully Donington will 'suggest' they fix it - as it's a modification to the track and I wouldn't have thought that was in the contract lol

Mad Jack McMad
29-07-2015, 16:58
Any clarification on this yet?
Is it going to be put right in a future update?

Plato99
29-07-2015, 17:02
As much I would like to see my favourite track in the world done right, I'm guessing there are many many many more pressing issues to fix before this one.

Mr Akina
30-07-2015, 13:12
Any clarification on this yet?
Is it going to be put right in a future update?

They don't seem to care. It's been like that since development and nobody bothered to correct it. The whole game is sloppy.

Nats
30-07-2015, 13:22
I also thought it was strange how I didnt get a time recorded till well after the finish line. The number of times I've relaxed after doing a good lap on crossing that line and then thought - hang on a minute....oh blooming heck!

Plato99
30-07-2015, 15:39
I also thought it was strange how I didnt get a time recorded till well after the finish line. The number of times I've relaxed after doing a good lap on crossing that line and then thought - hang on a minute....oh blooming heck!

My mate came round to have a blast on PCars as he's thinking of buying an XBox 1. He did exactly the same thing, shut off 2/3 the way down the straight, got overtaken by 2 AI and finished 7th !!!!

Mr Akina
02-08-2015, 18:01
My mate came round to have a blast on PCars as he's thinking of buying an XBox 1. He did exactly the same thing, shut off 2/3 the way down the straight, got overtaken by 2 AI and finished 7th !!!!

That's literally the only upside to this flaw lol

Roberttadcaster
02-08-2015, 21:58
It was the same all the way back on TOCA Touring cars. Always near the pit exit as far as I know?

Mr Akina
07-08-2015, 11:47
I notice this isn't fixed in the 3.0 patch. Any plans to fix this at all?

Leper Messiah
07-08-2015, 14:20
Has anyone thought that this is because of not wanting large grids of cars starting in the middle of the Roberts chicane (national) or around Goddards (GP)?? Coupled with not supporting different start/finish lines? Do a max amount of cars and start last and take note of where the game places you, probably at the last possible point a car could be facing forwards?

Mr Akina
07-08-2015, 14:23
Has anyone thought that this is because of not wanting large grids of cars starting in the middle of the Roberts chicane (national) or around Goddards (GP)?? Coupled with not supporting different start/finish lines? Do a max amount of cars and start last and take note of where the game places you, probably at the last possible point a car could be facing forwards?

Then limit the grid numbers to the actual amount of grid spots.

Not all circuits have the same amount of maximum competitors in game already - so why not simulate the real life capacity?

Leper Messiah
07-08-2015, 17:13
Then limit the grid numbers to the actual amount of grid spots.

Not all circuits have the same amount of maximum competitors in game already - so why not simulate the real life capacity?

Capacity is usually worked out by the number of garages I believe, Cadwell's got a limited grid size if I recall correctly because of the size of the garage/paddock area (I stand to be corrected). Had a quick try to see how far cars go back in real race at Donington and can't get any with a decent view of the back for reference, this is all total conjecture on my part, but it's plausible IMO. Your points are valid, but someone may say they'd rather a larger grid of cars. Seeing as I recall someone moaning about the lack of cars at Cadwell that's probable!

Mr Akina
07-08-2015, 17:34
Either way, the track is wrong. Even Donington Park say it's wrong. I don't know what other argument there can be if the track is wrong.

x ImJakeyy
07-08-2015, 23:21
I am a startline marshal at Donington, and this is one of the things that I pointed out during the development of the game, it always got skipped over and never got given an official answer about the issue.

The thing with Donington is you can have a 30 grid on the National layout in a 1x1 format (BTCC), but with a 2x2 grid you can get almost double the cars on the grid.

Obviously the GP layout makes some cars go around the corner we have gridded up cars going around the corner in the past anyway, so looking at 28ish cars before it goes around the hairpin in a 1x1 grid.

One other thing that is wrong on Donington is this grid spot I am parked in, it shouldn't be there :p

https://gyazo.com/01d4c52bb5c7ce86c120df9ce0ffc541.png

Mr Akina
08-08-2015, 10:17
I am a startline marshal at Donington, and this is one of the things that I pointed out during the development of the game, it always got skipped over and never got given an official answer about the issue.

Sounds like we have a case of Donington Denial. It seems like a lot of the continuity problems are institutionalised within the development. "It was like that and we just got used to it" isn't really a defense... especially when you're talking about a licensed product.

DragonSyr
09-08-2015, 12:14
why the finish line is in pit exit??

the start finish line is marked at least 150 meters before

Mr Akina
09-08-2015, 12:51
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?30625-Donington-Park-Start-Finish-Line-Wrong

Join in

Leper Messiah
10-08-2015, 07:22
Sounds like we have a case of Donington Denial. It seems like a lot of the continuity problems are institutionalised within the development. "It was like that and we just got used to it" isn't really a defense... especially when you're talking about a licensed product.

I agree it's not ideal but if it's because of what I think then there's naff all we can do about it, as Jakey says above the cars in reality stack up around Goddards (I presume that what he meant) and It'd be interesting to see if they also stack into Roberts Chicane at the National track in reality. If pCARS Ai couldn't handle that then fair enough.

Don't forget for a modern sim pCARS supports the most cars on the grid than almost any other, it then becomes a design and balance choice, less cars on grid and use the correct SF lines, or more cars on grid and adjust. Personally I'd have preferred less cars and total accuracy. It is what it is and in no way does it diminish the fun I get at Donington in pCARS, by far the best version of the track I have ever played.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
10-08-2015, 08:33
I was wondering why the lap time came up in the middle of nowhere, way past any kind of lines or trackside features.

RAVEracer
10-08-2015, 10:06
It does feel odd how close it is to braking into turn one. I may as well point out also that the control line is wrong at Bathurst too :)

Mr Akina
10-08-2015, 10:58
Don't forget for a modern sim pCARS supports the most cars on the grid than almost any other, it then becomes a design and balance choice, less cars on grid and use the correct SF lines, or more cars on grid and adjust.

That's great, and shout about the most cars on the grid etc... However, you can't just change a real world, licensed track to fit your cars!

There are 36 grid slots before the start line on the National layout and 26! usable slots before Goddard's corner on the GP layout... more than enough for career/online play. So there's no need for them to make up the layout as it is. Races on the GP layout with more than 24 cars would use a rolling start in real life anyway!

Project CARS positions 20 cars in front of both the start line AND the start lights... There's no grid markings on the track and you don't know when the lights go green. How can that be ok in a "sim"?

x ImJakeyy
10-08-2015, 12:37
I had to create a post regarding the Start/Finish LINES in the TGC-NCC thread a few months back, I will post the same stuff here so you don't have to search it up :p

At Donington the Start line is before the gate closest to garages 15/16, shown here with the car on the Pole position spot.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208016

And here is the finish line, after the gate near garages 3/4, also where races restart after a safety car period.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208017

About the timing line I think that is also at the Finish line, not 100% sure on the placement of that.

Leper Messiah
10-08-2015, 14:52
That's great, and shout about the most cars on the grid etc... However, you can't just change a real world, licensed track to fit your cars!

There are 36 grid slots before the start line on the National layout and 26! usable slots before Goddard's corner on the GP layout... more than enough for career/online play. So there's no need for them to make up the layout as it is. Races on the GP layout with more than 24 cars would use a rolling start in real life anyway!

Project CARS positions 20 cars in front of both the start line AND the start lights... There's no grid markings on the track and you don't know when the lights go green. How can that be ok in a "sim"?

Yeah I just started from the back of a full grid and I was by the pit entry, it's very weird and god knows why SMS have done that. Very strange I admit. Makes no sense I admit! I would love to hear why this is from a dev.

Especially as (from Jakey's post above) the track markings are clear as well. Very strange.

bodyshop
10-08-2015, 15:26
Has anyone contacted Donington directly? Genuine question as pretty sure for licencing reasons they would want the track depicted as it is in real life? I know SMS are having to change the capital Q on quattro for licencing reasons.

Plato99
10-08-2015, 15:43
I know SMS are having to change the capital Q on quattro for licencing reasons.

Has Suzi been kicking off?!

On a serious note, I've still not got used to the finish line position at Donny and it's the track I race more often than not. It just doesn't feel right, and it's a shame as the rest of the track is modelled fantastically well.

Here's something you wont hear me say often - the great thing about Grid Autosport was the planes taking off from EMA which you could see as you descended Craner Curves. That was a really nice touch.

bodyshop
10-08-2015, 18:03
Has Suzi been kicking off?!

On a serious note, I've still not got used to the finish line position at Donny and it's the track I race more often than not. It just doesn't feel right, and it's a shame as the rest of the track is modelled fantastically well.

Here's something you wont hear me say often - the great thing about Grid Autosport was the planes taking off from EMA which you could see as you descended Craner Curves. That was a really nice touch.

Agreed Donington is stunning in this game so such a shame about the start / Finish line error. And yes the planes in Grid Autosport were an inspired touch.

Mr Akina
10-08-2015, 19:43
Has anyone contacted Donington directly? Genuine question as pretty sure for licencing reasons they would want the track depicted as it is in real life? I know SMS are having to change the capital Q on quattro for licencing reasons.

Yep, spoke to them as mentioned previously..


Hi, that's strange! The designers for the game came to the circuit and took the data so it's unusual that this has happened! Thanks for raising it to our attention.

Donington Park

DP have probably got other stuff to worry about as it's racing season at the moment.

F1_Racer68
11-08-2015, 03:38
No, that's the F1/WEC start/finish. The one in pCARS is the GT/Club version. So it's technically still correct - Spa has two variations in real life... Donington doesn't lol

The issue that throws things off with Spa is that we are using the Endurance starting grid, but the F1 pit lane. We should in fact be using the pit lane that is on the downhill towards Eau Rouge as that is the pit lane used for the Sports car events.

F1 uses the grid/Start/Finish line on the straight leading up to la Source. Endurance cars use the grid on the downhill after la Source.

http://www.spa-francorchamps.be/en/images/plan_detaille-pro.jpg

I have to admit, this one is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

EDIT: Woo Hoo!! My 100th post :)

Ryzza5
13-08-2015, 08:09
This has been forwarded on to the developers.

Mr Akina
13-08-2015, 09:39
This has been forwarded on to the developers.

Thank you :)