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View Full Version : Can We PLEASE !! " Have this info In Laymens terms " PLEASE !!



jason
11-06-2015, 06:24
207101


I'm sorry If this has been posted guys but please someone explain in simple terms what this actually does and means ( yes I can read but some of the terminology is confusing me )

FFB Guide

Input Signals

The four front tire input signals are the component parts of the whole tire induced torque coming
through the rack. So if these are all scaled to the same thing (by convention 1.0), this is the
same as straight rack torque.
The two rear tire signals are to enable the Seats of Pants concept. Neither of these go through
rack geometry though, as there is no rear rack and steering wheel. These just go straight to the
seat.
Finally, the G force signal is to enable the Gut physical simulation concept.

Tire Force

This is simply an overall multiplier on all of the input tire forces. Note that G forces, the input to Gut, are not
scaled with this parameter. Note that the other FFB parameter in the Controller section is the
same as the scaling in the driver. Reducing that does not help saturation, it simply reduces
force.

Spindle

SpindleMasterScale

This is a multiplier on all of the front tire forces. This was added to allow the following four scale
to default to 1, and be more intuitively like “weights”.

SpindleFxScale
SpindleFyScale
SpindleFzScale
SpindleMzScale

Individual scales on the components going through the spindle/rack. To get pure rack forces,
leave these all at the same value. 1.0 is a convenient value for this, and use SpindleMasterScale
to dial overall spindle force.

SpindleFxLoPass
SpindleFyLoPass
SpindleFzLoPass
SpindleMzLoPass

Individual smoothing on the components going through the spindle/rack. Typically Fx requires
more smoothing than the others. 0.0 is no smoothing. 1.0 is normalized to “really smooth but
still some useful signal”. Values above 1.0 are valid.

SpindleArm

SpindleArm is the angle, in degrees, of the attachment of the tie rod to the spindle. Zero degrees
means the tie rod is attached directly aft of the axis. That particular distance, how far aft, is not
critical, because that just amounts to scale, which we adjust based on squeezing into the device
range anyway. The angle though matters a lot in how the forces feel when the steering wheel is
not straight.
90 degrees is then with the tie rod directly inboard of the axis, which physically would result in the
inability to steer. Realistic values I'd guess are between 0 and 45..

Seat of Pants

The basic idea of “Seat of Pants” is to present information from what is happening at the rear of
the car through force feedback. There are two physical forces that are used. The rear side
loads and the rear vertical loads.

SoPScale

Overall scaling of Seat of Pants

SoPLateral

Scaling of the rear side load effect.

SoPDifferential

Scaling of the rear vertical load effect, which is actually the difference between right and left
vertical loads.

SoPLoPass

Smoothing of the Seat of Pants signal. 0.0 is no smoothing. 1.0 is normalized to “really smooth
but still some useful signal”. Values above 1.0 are valid.

Relative Torque Adjust

The idea here is to present torque to the wheel based
on the change in torque through time instead of as absolute torque. This means that with
reasonable parameters, the wheel will never fully saturate. But unlike soft clipping (which can
also prevent saturation), the high end torques do not get as heavily squeezed.
There is one side effect to tune out though, and that is the wheel losing center over time. If all
torque was completely via “Relative Torque Adjust”, centered torque would move around as the
wheel goes through previously saturating torques. To prevent this, we use the bleed value to
“bleed” absolute torque back into the mix.

RelativeGain

This is the scaling on the amount of calculated torque change that is applied. 1.0 is the intuitively
correct value. 0.0 turns this component off.

RelativeBleed

This is a time value for bleeding absolute torque back in. 1.0s is a good starting point.

RelativeClamp

This is the force to wheel value (so in the 0.0 to 1.0 range) where the non absolute running
magnitude is clamped. This does not clamp the overall value, and torques can still go above
this, but it does exert a strong clamping effect. 1.0 is a good starting point for this. Values
greater than 1.0 can make sense if soft clipping is also used. Values less than 1.0 makes sense
to give some headroom for spikes to be a little more symmetrical around the clamp.
Note that with this component on, and with clamp at 1.0 or less, and not too much bleed, there is
no full saturation. What this means is that what was too much force before now becomes more
force effects felt near full force. But this too can become too much, as that can start to
overpower the more subtle unsaturated force range. So you still need to dial overall force (via
Tire Force and the scales), but that scaling can become an interesting control, not just
something to avoid saturation with.

Gut Simulation

This is a simulation of the G forces on the body of the driver. Basically, G forces move the body
around via a physical simulation, and the result of that simulation is translated to force feedback.

GutScale

Magnitude of the gut simulation in FFB. 1.0 is normalized to “significant but not overpowering”.

GutLongScale

Magnitude of longitudinal effect applied. This is a scaling of the baseline lateral effect. At 0.0, the
gut effect will be all based on lateral G’s. With non zero GutLongScale, under braking G’s, the
lateral effect will increase, and under acceleration G’s the lateral effect will decrease.

GutMass

This is the mass of the simulated “gut”, which should not be the whole human body. It should be
some lesser portion, roughly being the effective amount of mass not “locked down” rigid by the
seat and seatbelts. This is a very fuzzy concept, so the number is really just a very rough
ballpark number. This is fine, because the simulation is not overly sensitive to this number. It
matters, but it is not extremely critical.
The default is 50 kg.

Arm Simulation

The arm simulation simulates that the wheel is driven by a non rigid linkage, namely the driver’s
arms, as well as play and mass in the linkages themselves.. However, this is done purely with
force feedback. The position of the the controller still directly dictates the location of the
simulation wheel.
This simulation also serves as the main global smoothing stage.

ArmScale

Ratio of incoming signal to pass through the arm simulation. 0.0 if off. 1.0 is application of all
incoming signal.

ArmMass

Mass of “arms”, with respect to simulation. This does not necessarily mean the average mass
of two human arms. This is the effective mass with respect to the degree of freedom that is the
wheel/controller.

ArmStiffness

Spring*like stiffness of the “arms”. Stiffer settings will pass through higher frequency
information. Softer settings will smooth more.

ArmDamping

This is a multiplier on critical damping of whatever mass and stiffness is set. Therefore, 1.0
means exactly critically damped.

Soft Clipping

This compresses all force within range of the wheel, although the stronger the force, the more it
is squeezed into the higher force range. In some ways this is like Log Scaling, but Soft Clipping
guarantees all signal will squeeze into the range, however compressed. On the other hand,
approaching linear behavior is not implicit with soft clipping, as it can be with log scaling.

SoftClip

The “half signal” for setting the soft clipper. The value set here is the input signal that will
become 0.5 as an output signal. Setting this to 0.0 turns the soft clipping off. Setting this to 0.5
is maybe the closest approximation to linear while on, but is not linear. Setting this to 1.0 will
match the derivative/slope of the output at zero input (so if you want the lowest forces to feel
similar, and compress everything else). Therefore, less than 1.0 will amplify some lower force,
and reduce larger forces. Greater than 1.0 will reduce all forces.

SoftClipUnity

Straight soft clipping will never reach full 1.0 magnitude, which means for lots of soft clipping
scenarios, the full force of the wheel is never quite used, possibly to a noticeable level.
SoftClipUnity sets the expected maximum force that will hit the soft clipper, and rescales such
that that force outputs at 1.0 (full force of wheel). This means saturation may be reintroduced if
this is set too low, but it is useful to fine tune output, especially when the soft clipper is used
more for non*linear response than for anti*saturation. Setting this to 0.0 turns the unity re*scaling
off.

Scoop

This is a new component, and is directly in response to some devices going flat in
response at higher force levels. This is somewhat the opposite non*linear tool as the soft
clipper, but is shaped differently, to better fit the nature of devices (and be easier to control).
So what scoop does is reduce lower forces more and high forces less, thereby increasing the
slope of force where some devices reduce the slope of force. Since devices seem to do this in
two more or less linear regimes, with a knee in between, this is how this component works (in
the opposite direction).

ScoopKnee

The input force level where the knee is at. If this is 0.0, this component is turned off.
ScoopReduction
The input force reduction below the knee. Above the knee, the force slope is increased such that
at 1.0 input force, the output force is 1.0.

Tighten Center

Note that the name of this can be confusing. This has nothing to do with tightening the wheel
about geometric top center. The “center” for this component means “zero force”, and has
nothing to do with wheel position.
The primary purpose of this is to remove wheel deadzones, but it can also be a shaping tool.

TightenCenterRange

This is the input force below which the output force is increased to remove a deadzone. Put
more simply, this is the size of the deadzone you are trying to remove.

TightenCenterFalloff

This controls how sharply the output force approaches zero force as the input force goes below
TightenCenterRange.

Damping

One use of damping can be to counter inherent drag in a device by using negative BaseDrag.
However, often devices do not have linear inherent drag, so setting BaseDrag such that there is
little to no device resistance at slow wheel speed will result in accelerating forces at higher wheel
speeds. This can be fixed by also having some positive BaseDragSqr.
A technique to set damping to cancel most device drag is to turn off ALL forces, Slow
Speed Force, and TireForce) and adjust BaseDrag and BaseDragSqr such that the wheel stays
the same speed or slows down ever so slightly (until it hits a stop) when you give it a good push
at different rates. It seems better to have a tiny bit of drag left than to have the wheel accelerate
on its own at any speed.

BaseDrag

This is resistance on the wheel as a function of wheel angular velocity.

BaseDragSqr

This is resistance on the wheel as a function of wheel angular velocity squared.

BaseDragLoPass

This is smoothing of the angular velocity for drag calculations. Raw position data on some
devices can be noisy. Note that increasing smoothing can have a secondary apparent effect of
increasing the effect of drag.

Alan Dallas
11-06-2015, 06:28
Ya this is linked in my Sig below. I thought it's language was pretty simple myself. Any simpler and you'd need to put on a clinic on how FFB systems work.

jason
11-06-2015, 06:32
Maybe that's what I need :) , Im getting there slowly and its starting to feel great , Ive been working a lot on the sop and the fz scales ...... mostly , maybe I should be happy with that .

Alan Dallas
11-06-2015, 06:40
I guess I should add that it reads simple to me personally. Too many years spent fiddling with rFactor/rFactor2 FFB systems so terminology used has become a bit like a 2nd language to me. I'll poke around my Bookmarks and see if I can find some articles on haptic feedback systems that explain things a bit more plainly.

NemethR
11-06-2015, 06:40
Maybe that's what I need :) , Im getting there slowly and its starting to feel great , Ive been working a lot on the sop and the fz scales ...... mostly , maybe I should be happy with that .

Me too, I can't figure out what does what, and how that affects my driving, or the vibrations I get.

jason
11-06-2015, 06:41
Thank you Alan , that would be much appreciated as I would like to get the best feeling I possibly can out of the game .. cheers

flymar
11-06-2015, 06:49
I don't get it either, but I thought it's just the language barrier.
I wish there were info for every slider - go left - expect this, go right - expect that:)

jason
11-06-2015, 06:53
That's what i'm looking for :)

I think im going to get something more involved then that :dejection:

Mascot
11-06-2015, 08:01
I don't get it either, but I thought it's just the language barrier.
I wish there were info for every slider - go left - expect this, go right - expect that:)

Yep. Better on-screen explanations are long overdue. They should really have been there from day one.

Roger Prynne
11-06-2015, 09:32
Try reading this instead and take note of the diagram, also try some of the examples.

I know it's hard work but it's difficult to put into layman's terms.

207118

Sankyo
11-06-2015, 09:39
At some point you'll have to take it up and work with it, so you get a feel of what all of it does.

I will try have a look to see if some things can be explained a bit more extensively (I like explaining things :)), will take some time though.

BTW better link to the thread in case a new version or other stuff becomes available: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?29907-Force-Feedback-Guide-for-Project-CARS

Mascot
11-06-2015, 12:45
Try reading this instead and take note of the diagram also try some of the examples.

I know it's hard work but it's difficult to put into layman's terms.

207118

Has that been added to the Wiki? Or has the Wiki been abandoned?

spankthemunkey1
11-06-2015, 13:11
this helped me out, good explanations of settings, hope this helps some
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjI3rXHOR4

MULTIVITZ
11-06-2015, 13:25
Yeah I feel the same about the ffb instructions and lingo. Its not that it's bad, far from it. I know I would have to buy a wheel, read the instructions, set it up roughly, try the wheel, alter game settings, try it again, read many pages of tech talk and learn the lingo.
I install and set up surround sound systems of any size or type, unless you're familiar with the systems and language, it will be an impossible task setting up/even dangerous. It would be the same quest to learn about the ffb wheel. In either case the time and effort is worth it. If you see something you don't know, google it, if you can't do that, ask someone? Or pay a mate to learn about it and then set it up for you. imho

Bouyo
11-06-2015, 16:30
I agree that the FFB setup is really quite a process. It's worth it for sure, but a little more hand holding (specifically in-game) wouldn't go a miss.

I came at this game completely new to wheels and FFB and most of the videos and tutorials I watched were either made by people who didn't know what they were talking about, or who had different wheels and thought that they all work the same. Finally came to the conclusion that one man's perfect FFB is another man's worst nightmare. So I spent ages working out what each slider does, cherry picked other's results, and finally I have something that I like. Maybe this is the route the dev's intented players to take?

I'm tempted to write up a guide with a very broad brush approach, none of this 'signal compression' language which has no business in a feel based decision making process. However I suspect that people should disagree with my conclusions. If you want to see something from me then let me know!

konnos
11-06-2015, 17:32
Something is always better than nothing Bouyo ;)