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DozUK
13-06-2015, 09:19
Im not noticing much difference after patch. I paused my career pending patch due to the weather change tire issue but after reconvening I'm not noticing the difference.

I'm doing a 12 lap race (Mandatory pit) and rain hits on lap 8. The ai starts pitting from lap 3 with the majority all done by lap 5. I assume they change to wets as when rain hits on lap 8 they don't pit back in. So from this I conclude that for a lot of cars they're driving 5 laps in wets on dry, if I did this I my lap times would be poor and throughout all this time I'm haring round very fast on dry track on softs. I would have thought I would lap a car but maybe not? I'm the last to pit, on lap 8 rains starts lightly halfway round so I'm driving a fraction of lap in wet on dry tires. I pit, and come out 2nd or 3rd (tried a few times). Not only that but cars behind are going faster and the cars in front increase their gap. Exactly this situation happened pre patch. Not sure if the changes documented are only in solo but I can't see it in this career.

Open to it being me though, just very surprised I was expecting either the early pitters to put again when rain started or at least to be extremely slow based on driving wets on dry track for so long.

Has anyone else had this experience in career after the patch with changing weather towards end of race?

raptor unit
13-06-2015, 11:07
Surly the ai wouldn't all run same race strategy with pitting and going onto wets you would think there be mix strategies for example later pitting when the rain comes in or some ai staying on slicks and risking or hoping the rain doesn't come just like you would see in real racing.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 12:54
They pit on this because its mandatory and most pit early between laps 3 and 5. My assumption that they change to wets is based on two factors (taking into account documented 1.4 changes in this area). 1) when the rains starts to hammer down (light lap 8, a lot harder 9-12) they don't pit a second time (which I thought they would, I can only think rain is forecast so they chose wets) and 2) their lap times don't go slower and they don't skid around and lose control over heavy rain which they and I would if driving with slicks in pouring rain.

A third factor is that after I've pitted at end of lap 8 onto wets at least one passes me as I'm coming out of the pit lane and continually increases gap while those below catch up. This is inspite of me producing good lap times through laps 1-8 on slicks while most are driving (assumed wets) on a dry track.

This happened pre patch which is why I stopped until the patch came out, but I'm seeing no difference at all.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 16:43
Is anyone else finding this?

Mahjik
13-06-2015, 19:08
The main change with the recent patch was how the AI performs on dry tires in the rain. The other changes that are required for better AI rain racing are still being tested (i.e. wear with wet tires on dry tarmac, etc).

k.merse
13-06-2015, 19:11
In other words: AI is still broken, but better than it was on release.

Mahjik
13-06-2015, 19:15
In other words: AI is still broken, but better than it was on release.

In other words, not everything is going to be fixed in a single patch. The devs have stated they are testing some other changes so more will be coming. Doug, the AI lead, has already put in over 200 hours over the past few weeks testing and balancing the AI and tire wear (for the player tires as well).

DozUK
13-06-2015, 19:18
The main change with the recent patch was how the AI performs on dry tires in the rain. The other changes that are required for better AI rain racing are still being tested (i.e. wear with wet tires on dry tarmac, etc).

That doesn't really make any difference then. The changes to how the AI performs in drys on wets is really negated by the fact they now pit before it starts to rain. This then brings the opposite problem as they run fast in wets on a dry track (until it rains, when they become equal to you also now on wets). No difference really, no wonder the outcome is the same.

Mahjik
13-06-2015, 19:23
No difference really, no wonder the outcome is the same.

Well, nothing more to comment but that there was nothing listed in the patch notes saying there would be work in that space. As mentioned, the devs have commented on testing they are doing in this space and they did say it was going to take some time for balancing. This has already been going on for a while so hopefully it's something that can be completed for 1.5.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 19:39
Well, nothing more to comment but that there was nothing listed in the patch notes saying there would be work in that space. As mentioned, the devs have commented on testing they are doing in this space and they did say it was going to take some time for balancing. This has already been going on for a while so hopefully it's something that can be completed for 1.5.

No that's fair point, I'm not complaining I just thought that the change would fix my issue with this race but its in fact brought the opposite problem (AI don't run fast in rain with slicks, they pit early and run fast with wets in dry ha). I understand Rome wasn't built in the day, I just didn't realise the problem that was fixed would bring highlight another problem that negated the fix

Bealdor
13-06-2015, 19:43
No that's fair point, I'm not complaining I just thought that the change would fix my issue with this race but its in fact brought the opposite problem (AI don't run fast in rain with slicks, they pit early and run fast with wets in dry ha). I understand Rome wasn't built in the day, I just didn't realise the problem that was fixed would bring highlight another problem that negated the fix

To be fair, the player's rain tires are too good in the dry too atm. I know that's not perfect but you could use this information as a workaround for now.

xautos
13-06-2015, 20:05
i ran that race at zolder with the lotus 98t invitational the weather patternes changed to 2 laps earlier than expected and rain fell, as soon as the rain started to throw it down the ai came in on lap 4, i hung it out for lap 6, the majority of the ai drivers came in and changed tyres, did not know which, however by the time i had made my own stop, i had a 37 second gap to 2nd place, changed to inters and got out about 16 seconds ahead, the ai driver behind didnt pit, thats for sure. towards the end the track was more or less flooded, dealing with the horrible gears of the 98t around the corners, almost loosing control a few times, the driver behind was at one point gaining on me, however unlike the 1.3 version, this is has notably slowed down in the rain. infact i have noticed the ai in generally is a lot slower in the 1.4 version even on dry track.

if the ai driver had not of pitted the ai should of either tip toe around the track at a dangerously low speed or landed in a wall somewhere.


To be fair, the player's rain tires are too good in the dry too atm. I know that's not perfect but you could use this information as a workaround for now.

funny, because that same race i had to reset a few times because the default setup called for wets when a little water was on the track, within half a corner all 4 tyres had completely overheated and it was sliding around like mad. now thats unrealistic in the 98t. it takes time for the wet tyres to overheat like that and where there is some water on the offline section of the track not to mention cooler track, it should of cooled the tyres on the straight going through that water and colder track surface..

m355y
13-06-2015, 20:10
I was pretty surprised at the degree of the loss of grip in Formula B earlier. It started raining (lightly), I switched to inters and was initially fine, then suddenly, almost immediately, I couldn't even go in a straight line at 20mph without the car spinning. It struck me as a bit extreme.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 20:30
To be fair, the player's rain tires are too good in the dry too atm. I know that's not perfect but you could use this information as a workaround for now.

Thanks, but I don't really know how that would work in my favour. Surely staying out in slicks as long as I can would be better than switching early to wets while track was dry?

It just doesn't work, the above is faster but I still come out of pit in p2 or worse despite winning when in go into pit and AI being on wets for ages on dry. It's just opposite problem same net result. I'm hoping the next patch will cure because its pointless running a race where weather will change during the course of it

Schnizz58
13-06-2015, 20:50
Thanks, but I don't really know how that would work in my favour. Surely staying out in slicks as long as I can would be better than switching early to wets while track was dry?

It just doesn't work, the above is faster but I still come out of pit in p2 or worse despite winning when in go into pit and AI being on wets for ages on dry. It's just opposite problem same net result. I'm hoping the next patch will cure because its pointless running a race where weather will change during the course of it
Not sure but maybe in a wet -> dry situation you could stay on your wets when the AI cars pit to put on slicks or intermediates.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 20:57
Not sure but maybe in a wet -> dry situation you could stay on your wets when the AI cars pit to put on slicks or intermediates.

Potentially that way round may work depending on how many laps left. Doesn't help my career race though, but I'm happy that it's being looked at. I just thought it was cured in this patch and was looking forward to exciting pit strategies

Schnizz58
13-06-2015, 21:05
Potentially that way round may work depending on how many laps left. Doesn't help my career race though, but I'm happy that it's being looked at. I just thought it was cured in this patch and was looking forward to exciting pit strategies
I thought so too up until a week or so ago and then I found out it wasn't. It was never in the release notes, just a misunderstanding on my part.

DozUK
13-06-2015, 22:29
I've just tried it again, its very frustrating and very unrealistic. I went into pits p1, came out p3 and was passed by cars who have been on wets from early on now going way faster than me. They should have been nowhere near me in the first place let alone their increased speed when both on wets. They've driven wets on dry for about 5 laps. I'm going to have to put career on hold until this is fixed. I could lower AI level but that's pointless, I want a race where the tyres have the right effects. Such a shame, hope 1.5 addresses this and is out soon. Career is unplayable for me with this

Bob_bob
14-06-2015, 00:17
I see the same thing but worse. It starts out dry and on lap 5 it's starts to poor. The ai never pits and they leave me behind. I have to pit or lose control and pit forces me or lose control driving in wet with slicks, because there is only 1 lap left and I don't have the time to make it up. I'm usually about 8second lead but with the tire change im to far behind to make it up. I come out around 7 and get back to around 4 and that is the best.


It is so worse with 1.4, never saw this before update

Bealdor
14-06-2015, 00:39
I've just tried it again, its very frustrating and very unrealistic. I went into pits p1, came out p3 and was passed by cars who have been on wets from early on now going way faster than me. They should have been nowhere near me in the first place let alone their increased speed when both on wets. They've driven wets on dry for about 5 laps. I'm going to have to put career on hold until this is fixed. I could lower AI level but that's pointless, I want a race where the tyres have the right effects. Such a shame, hope 1.5 addresses this and is out soon. Career is unplayable for me with this

Wet tire wear will be increased, hopefully with the next patch already.

DozUK
14-06-2015, 07:57
Wet tire wear will be increased, hopefully with the next patch already.

Thank you, that should hopefully even things out and maae a massive difference

DozUK
14-06-2015, 08:12
Wet tire wear will be increased, hopefully with the next patch already.

Although tire wear is only a portion of the issue, the main problem is the performance of a tire on an incorrect track type ie wets on a dry track for a long period of time. Will this be addressed in the next patch? Forgive me if this is part of the solution you mentioned, I wasn't sure if you just meant actual wear of wets in rain.

Timilios
14-06-2015, 09:14
I, as many others, have also paused my career due to the dramatic, relative and absolute, change in performance when rain sets in. One of the most important concerns for any racing game should be to produce a level playing field, arcade and sim alike, as this is the basis for a good race, no different than real life racing. PC have achieved this to an, in my opinion, epic degree while in the dry, on console. Then I hit the classic touring car event at brands hatch. 8 laps, it starts raining about half way through. I start at 4'th, but at lap 6 it starts to get really slippery. I absolutely do not mind having to crawl my way around a classic british track, but seeing that everybody else suddenly turns into a bastard child between Senna and schumi, simply driving as on a train track, while i have extreme brake-oversteer and mid corner understeer at the same speeds, just destroys the fun. To my knowledge there is only one tyre for these classic races, so no difference there. I know I could probably minimize these effects by turning on some drivers aids, but this would completely destroy the fun for me. If i wanted a muted racing experience, i had bought a NFS game (not the shift ones naturally ;)) I'm afraid I still see the dramatic difference in wet performance post patch, maybe not to the same extent, but still in my opinion enough to make the challenge unrealistic, and that might work in Dark Souls as motivation, but not in a racing game. Thank you

DozUK
14-06-2015, 09:47
I, as many others, have also paused my career due to the dramatic, relative and absolute, change in performance when rain sets in. One of the most important concerns for any racing game should be to produce a level playing field, arcade and sim alike, as this is the basis for a good race, no different than real life racing

Exactly this, its the point I'm making on these posts. A change of weather part way through the race completely unbalances the great work put in to make such a fantastic game. But this is a major aspect of motor racing sim and to me should be the priority over any graphical tweaks etc. If the game includes weather changes and pit stops, it should really be working as intended. It's the one area of this great game that both dissapoints and frustrates me.

Ixoye56
14-06-2015, 10:05
There is no point driving career when not functioning properly, an opportunity to determine the weather conditions in career mode would be desirable, at least until all the bugs are fixed.

msportdan
14-06-2015, 10:08
Just wanted to add.

Ai in their first cold tyre Lap, is far too fast. Clio's at snetteeton i couldn't match Ai for grip until my tyres were green. They start with what ut seems optimal temps. Also Ai braking wtf they can brake in distances like a f1 car.

Games a frustrating thing to play that's for sure. Just wanted to join and post my Ai findings. I wont mention the annoying ffb issues there obvious.

Timilios
14-06-2015, 10:46
I guess the point is that if you are having a great time, and are getting challenged to your liking at ai level 80, in the dry, it shouldn't feel like the ai is set 40 points to high, when it starts raining. You could set the ai to 60, but that would just lead to a boring race in the dry, and subsequently a frustrating one when it starts raining.

DozUK
14-06-2015, 10:52
I guess the point is that if you are having a great time, and are getting challenged to your liking at ai level 80, in the dry, it shouldn't feel like the ai is set 40 points to high, when it starts raining. You could set the ai to 60, but that would just lead to a boring race in the dry, and subsequently a frustrating one when it starts raining.

Yeah, I did that last night. I knocked out the AI down by 10 and ended up quitting on last lap as it didn't feel right. I was winning by considerable margin but only because AI laps were too slow. It was too easy and not enjoyable. I have the right level of challenge, but the game is unbalanced when change of weather occurs. To me, this fix is top of any other as its fundamental to the experience and the games features. The game is fantastic if the weather doesn't change but I love the weather aspects.

ciderman9000000
14-06-2015, 11:16
Why wasn't this done properly before the game was released?

Tbh I've absolutely no confidence that the dev team have any clue whatsoever on how to get the AI working properly. If they knew how to get it right then they'd have done so by now. Obviously they just don't know how to make it work.

The game is broken. It just doesn't work.

DozUK
14-06-2015, 11:27
I'd have preferred the game to be released but without weather changes enabled (until working to simulate) purely to alleviate the frustration as thats what's happening anyway (manually by myself). I'm holding my career as current race features weather change, and if I set a race up I won't include weather change.

I like the game and I'd prefer to have it in my hands rather than wait any longer but I do believe features that don't work yet should be disabled as it ruins the experience. Make the call to release the game but add mid race weather changes when it's working

msportdan
14-06-2015, 12:49
Notoriously no sim has managed a good wet Ai simulation. Rf2 does a good job now but that took a few builds and doesn't looks half as pretty when it does rain. Maybe Geoff crammonds f1 iirc. But moat modern Sims rush to get the wet race in and don't really think about the basics.

I personally think pcars has bitten off more than it can chew. Too many cars to simulate too any tracks to get the Ai right on and on top to many issues.

Pcars broken. ? No its playable but like most games these days are released with issues. I take it people that say games are broken aren't old enough to remember the days of games on cassettes like on the c64. No internet no moaning no patches. Plenty of issues but we played thru them. Gamers these days are spoilt.. Games broken makes me laugh.

Mahjik
14-06-2015, 13:27
Although tire wear is only a portion of the issue, the main problem is the performance of a tire on an incorrect track type ie wets on a dry track for a long period of time. Will this be addressed in the next patch? Forgive me if this is part of the solution you mentioned, I wasn't sure if you just meant actual wear of wets in rain.

That is part of the wear.

SMS have commented they are re-visiting all of the wear. They mentioned they aren't sure exactly what happened with the wear, but suspect a change made in the physics engine to help performance has altered how the wear was calculated. One of the devs has already been working on and testing updates in this space but mentioned it would take some time (it requires a lot of testing and simulation and one of them has already logged 200+ hours of testing on this over the past few weeks). Whether these updates will make the 1.5 patch or not is unknown but what is known, is that SMS are addressing it.

DozUK
14-06-2015, 13:29
I was a spectrum/c64 player. Games then were a lot smaller 64k tops so a let less to go wrong and most didn't get released until ready too. Games then were great, though had internet been available there would be moans and gripes

mcarver2000
14-06-2015, 13:48
You may have been affected by the bug introduced in the 1.4 patch where the tire pressures of tires put on in the pits where the tire pressures are a good 5-7% different that the settings in the pit strategy setup.


I was pretty surprised at the degree of the loss of grip in Formula B earlier. It started raining (lightly), I switched to inters and was initially fine, then suddenly, almost immediately, I couldn't even go in a straight line at 20mph without the car spinning. It struck me as a bit extreme.

HarryHoodlum
14-06-2015, 14:06
Because it still seems like they're not. Only reason I say that is because as soon as I got to a race in my career where there was rain, I couldn't keep up. Could be my setup but I doubt it.

PureMalt77
14-06-2015, 14:08
Had a race yesterday (Career, Invitation, the horrible Escort). Was on slicks as the other AI drivers, when it started raining. They kept going, and I felt I was sliding on ice, without changing tires....

Kimhaag91
14-06-2015, 14:22
Was driving two days ago in the endurance championship at Sakito Circuit, when it started to rain halfthrough the race. some of the gt cars did pit, but none of the lmp1/2 cars did. i did pit for extreme wet (since the weather forecast said thunderstorm) and managed to match the lap times, wich is an improvement from before.

Pirategenius
14-06-2015, 14:23
Just had a M1 race at zolder. The AI started on slicks and didn't pit when it started to rain 20 laps in. And were as quick as me, when I put on wets, and they didn't loose control or slide like I did when on slicks. It's really starting to piss me off.

DozUK
14-06-2015, 15:19
For me, they pit early based on forecast. Much early but the problem is they run wets on dry track like slicks. No speed loss or handling issues at all. Frustrating

Luke Townsend
14-06-2015, 15:22
Had a race yesterday (Career, Invitation, the horrible Escort). Was on slicks as the other AI drivers, when it started raining. They kept going, and I felt I was sliding on ice, without changing tires....

Patch 1.4 is meant to have slowed them down in the rain when driving on slicks. The patch hasn't changed their pit decisions when it rains though so they stay out - according to posts on this forum that will be addressed in a future patch.

danowat
14-06-2015, 15:32
Still not enough, plus, they are just too unbalanced, they ate far too good at driving cars like the 98T, Ford MkIV or the CTR.

mister dog
14-06-2015, 16:22
Unfortunately not fixed yet. They don't pit and drive on with their magic slicks.

gigirivacattivo
14-06-2015, 16:31
They're just a bit slower, but they don't act like they are on a wet track.

Bob_bob
14-06-2015, 16:37
They're just a bit slower, but they don't act like they are on a wet track.

They don't seem slower. I have to lose because of the rain. It starts on 2 to last lap and I have to pit and they dont

DozUK
14-06-2015, 16:41
Not the patch I was looking for

Seems the main fix was something graphical that never bothered me anyway.

I hope that was just something easier to fix and get out rather than a priority thing

HarryHoodlum
14-06-2015, 18:00
Yeah so I keep trying this same race, that I've maybe tried 10 times now. It's not possible. I'm trying to play without assists, but it seems like the AI is either using full assists, or or generally just not subject to the same physics model as my car. Maybe it's too resource heavy to have every car slipping around in the rain? Either way, I'm skipping this race and taking the loss because it's not happening.

mister dog
14-06-2015, 18:04
Here's another quote i pulled from GTP today describing the problem:


Just had my first bit of rain, on Zolder, the 2nd invitational M1 race. Was in 2nd (AI at 90%) lap 3/5, then it starts spitting, and by the beginning of lap 5 I can't control the car anymore. Nobody else pitted, so I didn't either. I crashed out, impossible to drive, everyone over took me.

This time knowing what was going to happen, when it started raining, I went into the pits, I don't think half the rest did as I came back out about 8 places down.

Bob_bob
14-06-2015, 19:55
Here's another quote i pulled from GTP today describing the problem:

They claim to have made some changes but it's worse. You have to lose any races with rain if it is a short race. Ai is not affected by rain at all.

mister dog
14-06-2015, 19:56
They claim to have made some changes but it's worse. You have to lose any races with rain if it is a short race. Ai is not affected by rain at all.
It's not worse, it's just the same as it was before 1.4 ;)

DozUK
14-06-2015, 20:35
It's not worse, it's just the same as it was before 1.4 ;)

Exactly this

DozUK
15-06-2015, 08:45
That is part of the wear.

SMS have commented they are re-visiting all of the wear. They mentioned they aren't sure exactly what happened with the wear, but suspect a change made in the physics engine to help performance has altered how the wear was calculated. One of the devs has already been working on and testing updates in this space but mentioned it would take some time (it requires a lot of testing and simulation and one of them has already logged 200+ hours of testing on this over the past few weeks). Whether these updates will make the 1.5 patch or not is unknown but what is known, is that SMS are addressing it.

Thank you, I'm really pleased that it's being looked at however I would be weary of backlash if a further patch was released without a change of weather fix being included. This is a fundamental part of a racing sim if a change of weather feature is included. I would much rather the change of weather mid race be disabled in the game if it's not fixed in 1.5 at least people could continue with their career or any races without being compromised and enjoy the game without any frustration.

EvoM3
15-06-2015, 09:15
I've got a different problem.

8 Lap race at Bathurst with rain expected. Rain starts on Lap 3, some AI pit on lap 4, I pit with them, move to WETS, leave the pits and literally no grip at all, like I'm slicks in the bucketing down rain.. unable to keep driving... end race. Difficulty is on 100% and I can win in dry conditions.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 09:22
I've got a different problem.

8 Lap race at Bathurst with rain expected. Rain starts on Lap 3, some AI pit on lap 4, I pit with them, move to WETS, leave the pits and literally no grip at all, like I'm slicks in the bucketing down rain.. unable to keep driving... end race. Difficulty is on 100% and I can win in dry conditions.

It's the same problem on the face of it, a change of weather mid race makes the race unbalanced and causes frustration and an incorrect outcome. That's why I've asked for the weather changes mid race to be disabled until it's fixed and working correctly. Whilst in, it leaves you frustrated and leaves a bitter taste, without weather changes the games fab. As I've mentioned in previous posts, it's a fundamental flaw that looking at the list of issues is priority one for me.

wusuku
15-06-2015, 09:34
Not for me.
I started Zolder invitational race just before the 1.4 patch.
Same history as everyone here and I was beginning to stop playing there.

I was going to try for the last time (thinking of building a strong lead that allowed me to change tires and leave the pits at a reasonable position) and found out the patch when I got home.

The outcome: every car in my race pitted and I kept same kind of race as before (getting some seconds off the car following)
So for me: AI's behavior now its fixed

(For those of you who have not seen changes in AI. Are you sure the patch is really applied?)

ilmor
15-06-2015, 09:39
This area can still use some improvement but I think its better than before.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 09:45
This area can still use some improvement but I think its better than before.

Not for me it isn't, try a race with a mandatory pit where it rains 8 laps into it. The AI take their mandatory pit between 3 and 5 and keep flying. I did think they changed to wets because of forecast, but now I'm thinking they just stayed on drys and when it rained didn't pit but continued to drive fast. If they DID change to wets, then they drove 5 laps on a dry track without any speed or handling difference.

Either way, a change of weather mid race causes unbalance and breaks the race. No change of weather and it's great.

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 09:47
Not for me it isn't, try a race with a mandatory pit where it rains 8 laps into it. The AI take their mandatory pit between 3 and 5 and keep flying. I did think they changed to wets because of forecast, but now I'm thinking they just stayed on drys and when it rained didn't pit but continued to drive fast. If they DID change to wets, then they drove 5 laps on a dry track without any speed or handling difference.

Either way, a change of weather mid race causes unbalance and breaks the race. No change of weather and it's great.

Sounds like they switched to wets and took advantage of them still wearing too slow in the dry.

jack1984
15-06-2015, 09:52
Of course it is hard to speak for the developers without knowing the code, but I think these are quite challenging issues to tackle. SMS included partly a fix for some these problems in patch 1.4, but it seems not to work.

So isn't a solution to give players an option to control the weather during career mode? My guess is that this is more easy to implement while the main tyre/rain/AI problems are being fixed and tested for the couple of weeks/months. In that way, people can at least continue career mode without being frustrated. :)

DozUK
15-06-2015, 09:53
Sounds like they switched to wets and took advantage of them still wearing too slow in the dry.

They were very fast, fast enough to pass me when I pitted 5 laps later (despite them running 5 laps wets on dry while I set faster laps on slicks). When I came out on wets they increased the gap and cars from behind just took me (Even though I was on newer wets). To be honest they shouldn't have been close to me let alone faster. I love the game the a change of weather in a race just doesn't work.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 09:55
So isn't a solution to give players an option to control the weather during career mode? My guess is that this is more easy to implement while the main tyre/rain/AI problems are being fixed and tested the couple of weeks/months. In that way, people can at least continue career mode without being frustrated. :)

Exactly this, an option to disable mid race weather changes. The game is great if the weather doesn't change, I'm happy to wait for a fix if I can disable this problem and continue with my career. Right now, I've got to put my career on hold which is annoying as this is where I want to spend my time with the game.

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 09:59
They were very fast, fast enough to pass me when I pitted 5 laps later (despite them running 5 laps wets on dry while I set faster laps on slicks). When I came out on wets they increased the gap and cars from behind just took me (Even though I was on newer wets). To be honest they shouldn't have been close to me let alone faster. I love the game the a change of weather in a race just doesn't work.

Why not? Wet tires are very soft and if they wouldn't wear so fast (that's what happens in the game right now) they were competitive with slick tires.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 10:11
Why not? Wet tires are very soft and if they wouldn't wear so fast (that's what happens in the game right now) they were competitive with slick tires.

Fair point, but to use your logic if wets on dry are as fast as slicks. Why doesn't this happen to me when I come out? Surely I should be just as competitive as I was before the change, but this doesn't happen. The cars in front (which shouldn't be in front) increase gap and cars keep overtaking me? They're beyond competitive, they're way too fast.

Basically, I should win this race rather than drop right down and that's the frustration. If the weather didn't change during the race, I would win. That's the problem and that's why an option to disable weather changes in career while it's being tweaked would be in the best interest of the players of the game. The current set up is of no use to anyone (Im not knocking the game, I love it. I'm just giving my thoughts based on what I'm encountering)

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 10:19
Fair point, but to use your logic if wets on dry are as fast as slicks. Why doesn't this happen to me when I come out? Surely I should be just as competitive as I was before the change, but this doesn't happen. The cars in front (which shouldn't be in front) increase gap and cars keep overtaking me? They're not competitive, they're way too fast.

Basically, I should win this race rather than drop right down and that's the frustration. If the weather didn't change during the race, I would win. That's the problem and that's why an option to disable weather changes while it's being tweaked would be in the best interest of the players of the game. The current set up is of no use to anyone.

That's the too good general performance of AI in rain conditions. This will be reduced too in one of the next patches.

Kulch
15-06-2015, 10:24
Looks like I'm going from 1.3 to 1.5, thanks for this. No point loading up the game to marvel at the dynamic weather and career just yet.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 10:24
one of the next patches.

This (above) is the problem, it may not be fixed in the next patch but it's effecting the gameplay in career hugely. Not in a small way, a huge big noticeable way. I'm more than happy for this to be fixed in it's own time, but please disable the weather changing mid races so I can enjoy my career (and the game) without having these problems which clearly unbalance and effect the result. No one wants to run a race they will lose when they know they should win.

Its absolutely fine when the weather doesn't change mid race, lets go with this while the devs tweak it without people on their backs. It won't go away.

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 10:30
This (above) is the problem, it may not be fixed in the next patch but it's effecting the gameplay in career hugely. Not in a small way, a huge big noticeable way. I'm more than happy for this to be fixed in it's own time, but please disable the weather changing mid races so I can enjoy my career (and the game) without having these problems which clearly unbalance and effect the result. No one wants to run a race they will lose when they know they should win.

Its absolutely fine when the weather doesn't change mid race, lets go with this while the devs tweak it without people on their backs. It won't go away.

Adjusting all the handcrafted weather conditions for every rainy session(!) would probably be more work than slowing down the AI in the rain.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 10:30
Looks like I'm going from 1.3 to 1.5, thanks for this. No point loading up the game to marvel at the dynamic weather and career just yet.

Don't expect the fix in 1.5, in another thread it mentioned that it will be fixed in one of the next patches. Mid race weather changes need disabling until the problem is cured.

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 10:34
Similar threads merged.

jack1984
15-06-2015, 10:38
Adjusting all the handcrafted weather conditions for every rainy session(!) would probably be more work than slowing down the AI in the rain.

Curious design choice. So if I understand this correctly, the weather in career mode is fully scripted and not based on random events? Because the latter would be probably quite easy to remove.

So if I will doing career mode all over again, then I can expect the same weather at track X within race class Y in year Z? :confused:

Bealdor
15-06-2015, 10:41
Curious design choice. So if I understand this correctly, the weather in career mode is fully scripted and not based on random events? Because the latter would be probably quite easy to remove.

So if I will doing career mode all over again, then I can expect the same weather at track X within race class Y in year Z? :confused:

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer:


Design decision. The weather conditions are based on real life climate conditions. That means it will rain more in the UK than at Dubai for example.
Randomising the weather doesn't work/look believable when for example doing short races. Imagine a two lap race with random weather going from Clear -> Storm. It would look ridiculous and you had no time to react to it.

That's why controlled weather transitions were chosen to give everyone a believable racing experience, at the cost of variety. That's a typical design decision that have to be made many times during development.
If they it done the other way around the other half of players would complain about the unconvincing weather transitions and unrealistic conditions at a specific track.

Discussion: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?28295-Scripted-weather-in-solo-career

DozUK
15-06-2015, 10:43
Adjusting all the handcrafted weather conditions for every rainy session(!) would probably be more work than slowing down the AI in the rain.

Ok, I'm going to stop now. I know you're defending the game and I love it too so I can appreciate that. I think the point has been made, so I'm going to leave it at that and hope it gets fixed soon.

jack1984
15-06-2015, 10:47
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer:

Discussion: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?28295-Scripted-weather-in-solo-career

Thanks for the info!

xautos
15-06-2015, 10:48
I was pretty surprised at the degree of the loss of grip in Formula B earlier. It started raining (lightly), I switched to inters and was initially fine, then suddenly, almost immediately, I couldn't even go in a straight line at 20mph without the car spinning. It struck me as a bit extreme.

yes i have noticed this in that same 98t invitational race (and btw still no acknowledgement if the wet tyres are accurate in warming up properly after pitting, see back on page 2 when quoting the mod), the one thing i noticed was after fitting inters, i could not completely put down the power unless i was certain the car would be stable enough at high speed. the only pace i could do that was the main straight about quarter way in near the finish line. the rest of the way as the rain came down harder i was literally 5% acceleration the whole way as i had no way of keeping the car on the track and about 15% on the straight. ideally i would of hung it out on the wets for a few laps and let them come into their own. there was some water on the track when i came out, so the tyrews would of at least worked part of the way, but as it was the tyres overheated literally half a corner in.

KkDrummer
15-06-2015, 11:50
Never played a game that handled well AI changes based in weather changes. I think this is SMS biggest challenge and it may take them a few months to show improvements in this area. Graphical and performance improvements will come a lot earlier than tire/AI/weather balances.

xautos
15-06-2015, 11:59
turns out there was a thread about those tyre issues, wish it had been mentioned could of saved on the previous reply. may as well disregard the last bit of the previous reply and that in brackets earlier.

mister dog
15-06-2015, 12:49
It's safe to assume from all the different reports here and on other forums that the AI speed on slicks on the rain, nor them pitting for rain tyres when it starts raining has been fixed. It's exactly the same as before 1.4 although both issues were mentioned to be fixed in 1.4.

Great to have dynamic weather but if the AI is unaffected by changing conditions it's pretty much a useless feature at the moment.
Career back on hold here also again.

jack1984
15-06-2015, 12:57
It's safe to assume from all the different reports here and on other forums that the AI speed on slicks on the rain, nor them pitting for rain tyres when it starts raining has been fixed. It's exactly the same as before 1.4 although both issues were mentioned to be fixed in 1.4.

Great to have dynamic weather but if the AI is unaffected by changing conditions it's pretty much a useless feature at the moment.
Career back on hold here also again.

Well, it is actually worse than useless since you put your career mode on hold (and you're not the only one). I am very curious how it is possible that such issues passed the testing phase during development.

mister dog
15-06-2015, 13:05
Well, it is actually worse than useless since you put your career mode on hold (and you're not the only one). I am very curious how it is possible that such issues passed the testing phase during development.
Indeed, doing one race in changing conditions would have been sufficient to notice this before release.

Mahjik
15-06-2015, 13:40
I've got a different problem.

8 Lap race at Bathurst with rain expected. Rain starts on Lap 3, some AI pit on lap 4, I pit with them, move to WETS, leave the pits and literally no grip at all, like I'm slicks in the bucketing down rain.. unable to keep driving... end race. Difficulty is on 100% and I can win in dry conditions.

Sounds like this issue: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31047-INVESTIGATING-Very-Hot-tyres-after-pit-stop

Ixoye56
15-06-2015, 13:41
I vote for an option to control the weather during career mode until the AI problems in rain is fixed.

DozUK
15-06-2015, 14:03
Indeed, doing one race in changing conditions would have been sufficient to notice this before release.

It was noticed, or at least they were fully aware but call was made to release the game in this condition and tweak it afterwards. Doug914 the car physics ai developer was very open and honest about it on another thread.

>>You're right and I won't duck the point. We were late in getting the AI rain stuff working. We took a lot of time (longer than expected) to get the behaviours correct and get the tools to make them tweakable the way I wanted them. So it left a bit of a rush to get the first wave of tuning them done. Just being honest. And I won't promise what you see in the next patch will be perfect either. It will be a big improvement, but as these things go with all the cars and all the scenarios for rain in this great game of ours, there's still bound to be nit picks here and there.

mister dog
15-06-2015, 14:06
It was noticed but call was made to release the game in this condition and tweak it afterwards. Doug914 the car physics ai developer was very open and honest about it on another thread.

>>You're right and I won't duck the point. We were late in getting the AI rain stuff working. We took a lot of time (longer than expected) to get the behaviours correct and get the tools to make them tweakable the way I wanted them. So it left a bit of a rush to get the first wave of tuning them done. Just being honest. And I won't promise what you see in the next patch will be perfect either. It will be a big improvement, but as these things go with all the cars and all the scenarios for rain in this great game of ours, there's still bound to be nit picks here and there.

Thanks i read that but forgot about it already. In any case it doesn't make the situation much better though :)

justsyr
15-06-2015, 14:19
Well, at least until you can figure out the AI, please, stop the rain or make it raining from start, the mid race rain doesn't work for me since I do have to stop to be able to stay on track while AI keeps rolling around like nothing.
There's not even anything to tell me if there's going to be rain, if it going to stop in a few laps. Just racing at Monza and it all started "sunny", lap 6 starts to rain, the sun is still up there shining, 3 laps later keeps raining and I can't keep up with AI 5 seconds faster.
207877207878
But honestly, I'm tired of rain.
Rain on every darn race for the last 8 races. Come on!
I like the game, very much, but I'm getting tired of the rain. I get it, it adds to the immersion, it's one more challenge, yeah. Every race? Sorry, that's just boat simulator.

Wanted to add: AI drivers are way too separated too, like, second AI is 2 seconds slower, and add 2 seconds for the next 5 or 6, the "back of the pack" group is what would be ideal (or at least how I'd like) at least 3 or 4 drivers fighting for position or at least not 10 seconds one behind the other.

Also there's the fact that AI don't like to be passed from the outside and goes out of the track just to come back in AHEAD of you and slamming you on the side, and oh, your lap don't count, you just hit someone, wat.

mister dog
15-06-2015, 14:34
Just racing at Monza and it all started "sunny", lap 6 starts to rain, the sun is still up there shining, 3 laps later keeps raining and I can't keep up with AI 5 seconds faster.
But honestly, I'm tired of rain.
Rain on every darn race for the last 8 races. Come on!
I like the game, very much, but I'm getting tired of the rain. I get it, it adds to the immersion, it's one more challenge, yeah. Every race? Sorry, that's just boat simulator.
I didn't get far enough in my career to have noticed this, but if it is like this it would be good if this is tweaked also. For starters it's not realistic to go from sun to rain that fast, better start of on mid or heavy cloud in some of the races so the progression seems more realistic. Then of course having it starting to rain for 8 races in a row is exaggerated also and spoils the magic.

justsyr
15-06-2015, 16:55
Then of course having it starting to rain for 8 races in a row is exaggerated also and spoils the magic.

Yeah. Tell me about it. Even in California rains. (sarcasm)

207901207902207903

Schnizz58
15-06-2015, 17:29
Well, at least until you can figure out the AI, please, stop the rain or make it raining from start, the mid race rain doesn't work for me since I do have to stop to be able to stay on track while AI keeps rolling around like nothing.

For me the things that make games addictive are immersion and the increased challenges at each level. That's what career mode is all about. I think there are 3 factors that all play into the problems with immersion and hence career mode. One is the AI physics and behavior, especially in weather. Another is the lack of good weather information from your pit engineer (anybody can read a doppler weather radar map these days). And the third is the scripted weather (this one is not quite so bad because you don't know what's coming 1st time through a season). At least the 1st two need to be improved before I will want to resume my career.

Cholton82
15-06-2015, 18:24
I was really hoping it would be fixed , I'm sadly putting career on hold until it's addressed ! Brilliant game but this is killing career mode .

Please tell us this is one of your priority fixes SMS !!!

Bob_bob
16-06-2015, 03:52
I put my career on hold because of the rain. Never thought about it but the pit could let you know before it starts. That would be awesome.

Most of the time you never hear from the pit, race after race. Would be more interactive if they said more, make you feel like you are more part of a team.

Cornflex
16-06-2015, 07:09
PCars has the best and most flexible weather system I've seen in a racing game.
It can create almost every weather theme our planet has to offer.
So why do they use scripted weather in career mode and make it static again? I don't get it. :(

Bealdor
16-06-2015, 07:15
PCars has the best and most flexible weather system I've seen in a racing game.
It can create almost every weather theme our planet has to offer.
So why do they use scripted weather in career mode and make it static again? I don't get it. :(

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31094-Career-mode-AI-tires-weather-issues-post-patch&p=992127&viewfull=1#post992127

mister dog
16-06-2015, 07:21
I agree with the static weather as long as it's diverse enough to not repeat itself from one race to the next over and over again like @justsyr mentions above.

Also i don't know if it's the case now, but i hope conditions change from one season to the next, so conditions on a particular event aren't the same each time you repeat it, like say the 24hrs of Le Mans in career? Does anyone know this?

Bealdor
16-06-2015, 07:27
I agree with the static weather as long as it's diverse enough to not repeat itself from one race to the next over and over again like @justsyr mentions above.


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31094-Career-mode-AI-tires-weather-issues-post-patch&p=992106&viewfull=1#post992106


Also i don't know if it's the case now, but i hope conditions change from one season to the next, so conditions on a particular event aren't the same each time you repeat it, like say the 24hrs of Le Mans in career? Does anyone know this?

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31094-Career-mode-AI-tires-weather-issues-post-patch&p=992127&viewfull=1#post992127

mister dog
16-06-2015, 07:32
Cheers, i should read a bit better lol. Hope this is changed though, having 8 rainy sessions in a row and the same weather each year spoils the fun.

Cornflex
16-06-2015, 07:53
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31094-Career-mode-AI-tires-weather-issues-post-patch&p=992127&viewfull=1#post992127

>>>Design decision. The weather conditions are based on real life climate conditions. That means it will rain more in the UK than at Dubai for example.
Randomising the weather doesn't work/look believable when for example doing short races. Imagine a two lap race with random weather going from Clear -> Storm. It would look ridiculous and you had no time to react to it.<<<

In a two lap race I don't need to react to weather changes because the race will be over when I do.
And the change from clear weather to storm will only look ridiculous if it completes during the two laps. In this case the problem is the unrealistic race distance not the dynamic weather.

Bealdor
16-06-2015, 08:21
In a two lap race I don't need to react to weather changes because the race will be over when I do.
And the change from clear weather to storm will only look ridiculous if it completes during the two laps. In this case the problem is the unrealistic race distance not the dynamic weather.

Well, you can't force players to only run 100% race duration.

Cornflex
16-06-2015, 08:34
Well, you can't force players to only run 100% race duration.

I don't want to do so. But you cannot expect do have realistic looking weather changes when choosing an unrealistic race length.
Please keep weather dynamic or at least random in career mode!

ciderman9000000
16-06-2015, 09:13
I don't want to do so. But you cannot expect do have realistic looking weather changes when choosing an unrealistic race length.
Please keep weather dynamic or at least random in career mode!

I made that same argument in the original thread.

Is pCars designed primarily for players who wish to compete in two-lap races? If so then I'm really glad the scripted weather is working out for them and they're not having to witness the horror of it raining halfway around lap 2 and their not having time to respond.

For those of us though who like to play pCars as a simulation rather than arcade game this same scripted weather that works great for arcade racers is really killing the career mode of the game. We want a dynamic weather system which can surprise us and present us with difficult tactical decisions, not the same, mundane, groundhog day weather infesting every track with the absolute boredom of perfect predictability.

Such a poor design decision. An absolute game killer imo.

Scripted weather in solo career (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?28295-Scripted-weather-in-solo-career)

CaptainJohann
16-06-2015, 09:42
Perhaps random weather could be added in *only* for 100% career races?

Or for there to be a minimum of 10 laps per weather slot? (and to use the current hand crafted system for all shorter races)?

As others have said, I'm aware that this is a big ask code wise but at the moment I'm just going to stick to single events...

Cornflex
16-06-2015, 11:46
Perhaps random weather could be added in *only* for 100% career races?

Or for there to be a minimum of 10 laps per weather slot? (and to use the current hand crafted system for all shorter races)?

As others have said, I'm aware that this is a big ask code wise but at the moment I'm just going to stick to single events...

Sounds like a good suggestion to have dynamic weather only for races with 10 laps or more.
At the moment I only race solo events but it's annoying when you cannot save between sessions.

mister dog
16-06-2015, 13:41
Reply from Doug where he explains how come the AI still rolls on without pitting when it starts raining:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27185-GOOD-INFO-INSIDE!-tyre-wear&p=994734&viewfull=1#post994734

Should be fixed finally in the next patch.

arveena
16-06-2015, 16:59
Well, you can't force players to only run 100% race duration.

Even with 100% its plain unrealistic. I am doing a 100% lenght and AI youtube series and Track Temps dropping for about 20 Celsius in two laps feels a little bit strange to me especially when the AI is not affected by it.
Track Temp and Rain are more of an issue for me in 100% lenght than in short races. As you can defend for 1 lap against an AI who is doing laptimes like it is 30 Celsius but if you need to run against them for 20 Laps and they are doing the same laptimes than in the start where it was sunny and now its foggy and sun is going down dropping the Temps massively its frustrating.
Also it feels super Arcade Style for me. I mean for example the clios are running 30 min on 100%. thats roughly the time they would run in Reallife. So the weather should be according to that. I never seen a clima zone where in 30min we got sun and 30 celsius fog and 15 celsius and 20 celsius and sun again not even where I live and thats the famous Eifel where the Ring is.

Blvd69
16-06-2015, 17:04
Even with 100% its plain unrealistic. I am doing a 100% length and AI youtube series and Track Temps dropping for about 20 Celsius in two laps feels a little bit strange to me especially when the AI is not affected by it.
Track Temp and Rain are more of an issue for me in 100% length than in short races. As you can defend for 1 lap against an AI who is doing laptimes like it is 30 Celsius but if you need to run against them for 20 Laps and they are doing the same lap times than in the start where it was sunny and now its foggy and sun is going down dropping the Temps massively its frustrating.yeah agreed with your assessment here on the tires..i find the same issues too!

DozUK
17-06-2015, 10:33
I have to say, I re-visited the career race that I've complained (Quite a bit on this thread) about last night where it starts to rain on lap 8. I raced hard and put in 7 very impressive lap times, most of the AI pitted between laps 3 and 5 with the 2nd place car pitting on lap 7. I pitted on lap 8 (started raining halfway through) but managed to come out in P1 for the first time. I can only assume that in previous go's I may have lost a second or half second per lap being negligent. I still think the balance is out, but I will admit that I may have been a bit harsh in my judgement. the 2nd placed car was a about 3 seconds behind when I came out and 3 seconds is not a lot really so it's feasible that I could have eased up in previous go's, the difference with this time was I produced very good laps each time. I actually then hit a back marker which wouldn't get out of the way, that then brought the pack closer to me. I hoped I could get past so the back marker would hold the others up but I didn't. I still managed to hold out and win though which I didn't think was possible and I have to say it was the most exciting race I've had on any race game I've played (And I've been playing since 1982). As mentioned I still thing it's a tad unbalanced as I had to be bang on my game, but maybe that's right? The 2nd car was also on slicks until lap 7 and about 3 secs behind me, in earlier games I've come out in P2 or P3 but I suppose I could have eased up a little with the pressure!

My re-assessed conclusion: a little bit unbalanced still but happy to admit that driving complacency has added to my previous gripes and I apologise for that.

mister dog
17-06-2015, 12:48
I have to say, I re-visited the career race that I've complained (Quite a bit on this thread) about last night where it starts to rain on lap 8. I raced hard and put in 7 very impressive lap times, most of the AI pitted between laps 3 and 5 with the 2nd place car pitting on lap 7. I pitted on lap 8 (started raining halfway through) but managed to come out in P1 for the first time. I can only assume that in previous go's I may have lost a second or half second per lap being negligent. I still think the balance is out, but I will admit that I may have been a bit harsh in my judgement. the 2nd placed car was a about 3 seconds behind when I came out and 3 seconds is not a lot really so it's feasible that I could have eased up in previous go's, the difference with this time was I produced very good laps each time. I actually then hit a back marker which wouldn't get out of the way, that then brought the pack closer to me. I hoped I could get past so the back marker would hold the others up but I didn't. I still managed to hold out and win though which I didn't think was possible and I have to say it was the most exciting race I've had on any race game I've played (And I've been playing since 1982). As mentioned I still thing it's a tad unbalanced as I had to be bang on my game, but maybe that's right? The 2nd car was also on slicks until lap 7 and about 3 secs behind me, in earlier games I've come out in P2 or P3 but I suppose I could have eased up a little with the pressure!

My re-assessed conclusion: a little bit unbalanced still but happy to admit that driving complacency has added to my previous gripes and I apologise for that.

Seems like in your race the AI did pit when it started to rain, which means they probably started the race on slicks just like you and their overall pace in the wet was the only negative effect you experienced (needs to be patched still).

The race Skazz did, which i used an example, was 5 laps so not the maximum distance, and then they started on rain tyres supposedly and didn't pit. As long as you race full distances and it doesn't rain before half the race it seems to be ok then. This also confirms what Doug said that the prediction time of the AI is still a bit off, and in shorter races they can see when it will start raining in a couple of laps, and just start off on rain tyres which are also way too grippy for dry surfaces.

So when those 2 things get sorted (hopefully in time for 1.5), we'll be good finally :)

DozUK
17-06-2015, 13:21
Seems like in your race the AI did pit when it started to rain, which means they probably started the race on slicks just like you and their overall pace in the wet was the only negative effect you experienced (needs to be patched still).

The race Skazz did, which i used an example, was 5 laps so not the maximum distance, and then they started on rain tyres supposedly and didn't pit. As long as you race full distances and it doesn't rain before half the race it seems to be ok then. This also confirms what Doug said that the prediction time of the AI is still a bit off, and in shorter races they can see when it will start raining in a couple of laps, and just start off on rain tyres which are also way too grippy for dry surfaces.

So when those 2 things get sorted (hopefully in time for 1.5), we'll be good finally :)

Yes, I think the prediction time is definitely out and needs tweaking. As mentioned they were pitting mainly between laps 3-5 and with a field of 20 that was probably to make space in the lane. I would love to see cars stretching out as long as they can and either pitting just before or even better once rain starts (Like I did).

Pirategenius
19-06-2015, 19:37
I wish the weather was more realistic in career mode. I have everything set to 100% AI distance etc. yet if it rains and the track is soaked, as soon as it stops raining the track is bone dry within 1/2 a lap. Same with fog, it goes from clear to heavy fog within a lap then clear again after 2 laps. The day/night time cycle is X1 why not the weather?
This is now starting to get on my nerves and is ruining the immersion level.

When can we expect realistic time scale for weather in career mode? Or sync it to race distance; i.e 100%race distance X1 weather timescale, 50% x5, 10% x60. Or something similar.