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View Full Version : Beating the cheater with a clean lap



AfterAll14
21-06-2015, 20:18
Watch to the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jcanYlxY1E

Umer Ahmad
21-06-2015, 20:41
Awesome video man. SMS is working hard on closing these track cuts. You will be rewarded for playing fair.

hoodi4cars
21-06-2015, 21:01
Congrats on beating the record with a clean lap. However:

cheat = gaining advantage by manipulating the game logic (via code changes/injection, or some other ways)
exploit = gaining advantage by using bugs

At least that's my definition of these terms. And imo, this cutting is neither the one nor the other. The devs deliberately decided to not define seperate cutting rules for TT (there's posts from Ian about this). And for me personally, I'd lose any motivation for TT if I laid this self-imposed restriction upon me to have to race "clean", when the game has a different definition of it and therefore many people cut track and get incredibly fast times. You may have beaten this one, but you won't be able to beat others unless you cut track too. And I think you shouldn't blame the people for doing that and call them cheaters. You should blame the game design.*

*Please note I'm not hating on the devs here, obviously they didn't do it like this because they thought "well f** the people, we will ruin TT with this bad design LMFAO". ;) They surely had their reasons for it (probably just not enought time / more important things). It's okay. I'm just saying that I think you shouldn't call people cheaters now just because they race within the game design's rules. You can't compare that to, say, ALT+TAB out of the game, roll back the system time, and then pass the finish line. Now THAT would be a CHEAT. (and I hope this is not possible lol)

edit:


Awesome video man. SMS is working hard on closing these track cuts. You will be rewarded for playing fair.

oh wow, really? So this means they will (manually?) check all leaderboard entries and remove the ones that used the old cutting rules? Is this even possible technically I wonder..? I just hope they won't simple define new rules without touching the leaderboards. Because this would be even worse, having times on there which you will never ever be able to beat again. Is there already a more detailed plan on how exactly they want to do this?

Mr.Smoke
21-06-2015, 21:06
Nice work!! I enjoyed watching that.

Making changes like that without wiping the leaderboards would be beyond stupid & unfair to everyone.

Minimum of 2 tires need to remain between the white lines to be called a clean lap in my eyes.

AfterAll14
21-06-2015, 21:06
Congrats on beating the record with a clean lap. However:

cheat = gaining advantage by altering/skipping/injecting game code logic
exploit = gaining advantage by doing something that the game code allows but that was not considered by the devs (i.e.: using bugs)

At least that's my definition of these terms. And imo, this cutting is neither the one nor the other. The devs deliberately decided to not define seperate cutting rules for TT (there's posts from Ian about this). And for me personally, I'd lose any motivation for TT if I laid this self-imposed restriction upon me to have to race "clean", when the game has a different definition of it. You may have beaten this one, but you won't be able to beat others unless you cut track too. And I think you shouldn't blame the people for doing that and call them cheaters. You should blame the game design.*

*Please note I'm not hating on the devs here, obviously they didn't do it like this because they thought "well f** the people, we will ruin TT with this bad design LMFAO". ;) They surely had their reasons for it (probably just not enought time / more important things). It's okay. I'm just saying that I think you shouldn't call people cheaters now just because they race within the game design's rules.

edit:



oh wow, really? So this means they will (manually?) check all leaderboard entries and remove the ones that used the old cutting rules? Is this even possible technically I wonder..? I just hope they won't simple define new rules without touching the leaderboards. Because this would be even worse, having times on there which you will never ever be able to beat again. Is there already a more detailed plan on how exactly they want to do this?

Every true racer knows what is cheating, and you can not redefine it.

hoodi4cars
21-06-2015, 21:14
Every true racer knows what is cheating, and you can not redefine it.

I have to say I dislike that I'm already getting this kind of posts again. I even added this paragraph about I'm not attacking the devs or the game here just to make sure that I will not be torn apart by the SMS advocates again. what is it with this forum that whenever you say anything bad about the game, no matter how objective you say it and how much of a fact it is, people get this kind of aggro attitude???? and then I get even attacked again for raising this point as If it was not true. If I got your post wrong afterall, then sorry. But it sounds kind of... bossy and unfriendly. why do peopel have this attitude towards EVERY discussion where the game design is questioned. :mad: and I didn't even complain about it. Just raised my opinion that I think its going too far to call people cheaters for it. And instanstly a SMS advoacate shows up and gets 10 likes in a minute. report your bugs and discuss your game design flaws without me in the future, I'm so sick of this. you dont have to reply

NemethR
21-06-2015, 21:15
Watch to the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jcanYlxY1E

Sorry to disappoint, but you have cut the track 12 times yourself. (4 tires over the white line).
Other than that, nice driving.

@3:37, 3:38, 3:40, 3:58, 4:23, 4:25, 4:28, 4:51, 5:16, 5:20, 5:44 and 6:46.

JessicaWalter
21-06-2015, 21:17
nice vid.

...and there's a wet blanket in here if anyone's car catches fire

AfterAll14
21-06-2015, 21:47
Sorry to disappoint, but you have cut the track 12 times yourself. (4 tires over the white line).
Other than that, nice driving.

@3:37, 3:38, 3:40, 3:58, 4:23, 4:25, 4:28, 4:51, 5:16, 5:20, 5:44 and 6:46.

This circuit white lines is hard to understand sometimes.
Here is real driver with going 4 wheels off the track several times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSvKAO_T14
That is a reason I think my driving is legit - I saw multiple times drivers doing that during LeMans 2015 last race.

On real track stewards decide close moments like this.
So we probably have to generate some sort of community decision on this.
I'm on my own think that driving like in this video is okay.

TrevorAustin
21-06-2015, 22:20
I have to say I dislike that I'm already getting this kind of posts again. I even added this paragraph about I'm not attacking the devs or the game here just to make sure that I will not be torn apart by the SMS advocates again. what is it with this forum that whenever you say anything bad about the game, no matter how objective you say it and how much of a fact it is, people get this kind of aggro attitude???? and then I get even attacked again for raising this point as If it was not true. If I got your post wrong afterall, then sorry. But it sounds kind of... bossy and unfriendly. why do peopel have this attitude towards EVERY discussion where the game design is questioned. :mad: and I didn't even complain about it. Just raised my opinion that I think its going too far to call people cheaters for it. And instanstly a SMS advoacate shows up and gets 10 likes in a minute. report your bugs and discuss your game design flaws without me in the future, I'm so sick of this. you dont have to reply

Why are you trying to make this about bugs in the game. He hasn't mentioned your criticising the game, just questioned your sporting ethics, quite rightly imo.

So you think it ok for soccer players to dive and get penalties, because they can gey away with it, or golfers to miscount their scores, etc.

The only reason sms need to put cut detection in is to stop cheating, as i understand it they played fair and understood the rules before it went public.

Cheating is cheating, whether you can get away with it or not, if it's against the spirit of the competition it's cheating, no semantics can change that.

o2R Dsquared 07
21-06-2015, 22:41
Sorry to disappoint, but you have cut the track 12 times yourself. (4 tires over the white line).
Other than that, nice driving.

@3:37, 3:38, 3:40, 3:58, 4:23, 4:25, 4:28, 4:51, 5:16, 5:20, 5:44 and 6:46.

This.

NemethR
21-06-2015, 23:15
This circuit white lines is hard to understand sometimes.
Here is real driver with going 4 wheels off the track several times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSvKAO_T14
That is a reason I think my driving is legit - I saw multiple times drivers doing that during LeMans 2015 last race.

On real track stewards decide close moments like this.
So we probably have to generate some sort of community decision on this.
I'm on my own think that driving like in this video is okay.

Well, it depends, in racing situation, you cannot always be between the white lines, as everyone makes small mistakes.
But for example for qualifying, your time would easily been discardad.

If i would be the steward, I for sure would say, that this lap is invalid, give it another try.

SURE I still say, you are a much cleaner driver, then the ghost, but still, I would say, that ideally for Time trial, and Community events a very stict system needs to be implemented, and this would be a no go.
As by the FIA standard rules you have left the track with 4 wheels 12 times :)

No offense tough.

Knightfall
22-06-2015, 00:46
Great video, and great driving + setup.

Hopefully, when the cut corners are fixed, the leader board will be wiped.

I know I wont have a problem doing my times again...

Alan Dallas
22-06-2015, 01:20
@3:37, 3:38, 3:40, 3:58, 4:23, 4:25, 4:28, 4:51, 5:16, 5:20, 5:44 and 6:46.
If you're going to steward the video at least get it right.

@3:37 - 2 on the line, not over.
@3:38 - 2 on the line, not over.
@3:58 - Ran wide, not a cut
@4:23 - All 4 over
@4:25 - All 4 over
@4:28 - All 4 over
@4:51 - All 4 over
@5:16 - White line here not the track limit IRL, the dirt is, running wide left allowed.
@5:20 - Ran wide, not a cut
@5:44 - Dashed line not track limit, curb is. Only 2 on curb, not a cut.
@6:46 - 2 on line, not a cut.

MULTIVITZ
22-06-2015, 01:53
Now you know.

S#it! where's that blanket.......

AbeWoz
22-06-2015, 03:33
SMS needs to add in the updated Ford Chicane for 2014:
208658

Umer Ahmad
22-06-2015, 04:04
oh wow, really? So this means they will (manually?) check all leaderboard entries and remove the ones that used the old cutting rules? Is this even possible technically I wonder..? I just hope they won't simple define new rules without touching the leaderboards. Because this would be even worse, having times on there which you will never ever be able to beat again. Is there already a more detailed plan on how exactly they want to do this?
Dont take my words too literally. I dont know exactly what they will do. What i mean is that in the future the cut-tracks will be tightened so a guy like the OP will naturally benefit from this as it would not pose a risk to his laptime, he is already much more respecting the track limits than the ghost.

NemethR
22-06-2015, 08:13
If you're going to steward the video at least get it right.

@3:37 - 2 on the line, not over.
@3:38 - 2 on the line, not over.
Because of perspective, I am quite sure, it was over the line.
Would be worth watching in another angle



@3:58 - Ran wide, not a cut
Still 4 outside the track, and because he run wide, he gained a lot of speed because of this. Not a cut, but exploiting in track limits.



@5:16 - White line here not the track limit IRL, the dirt is, running wide left allowed.

Agreed, you got me here.



@5:20 - Ran wide, not a cut

Still he gained speed by doing it, so not a cut, but exploiting track limits.



@5:44 - Dashed line not track limit, curb is. Only 2 on curb, not a cut.

Might be so, but I am sceptic.



@6:46 - 2 on line, not a cut.

Again because of the perspective we see the car, I am quite sure, he was over the line.
Would be worth watching in another angle

Back to the point any one of these should invalidate the lap, so it does not really matter if he did it only once, or 199 times.

MartinMWWebb
22-06-2015, 09:08
Nice vid, good attempt! while your driving was not 100% clean yourself its nice to see you taking on a deliberate corner cutter.

Remember the only person a cheat is cheating is themselves.

PJ Dunham
22-06-2015, 13:58
Corner cutting or not do it from cockpit like a real driver ;)

Nice time btw.... and dumb ass me was thinking time trial was all in same setup der ( slaps head )

QPRLad
22-06-2015, 14:19
If you're going to steward the video at least get it right.

@3:58 - Ran wide, not a cut



Running wide has given a higher top speed down the Straight. At this years Le Mans nearly every car had a driver called to the stewards and were issued a warning for doing this in qualifying. You're exploiting the bugs. You've let me down, you've let clean racers down & more importantly, you've let yourself down.

AbeWoz
22-06-2015, 15:10
Running wide has given a higher top speed down the Straight. At this years Le Mans nearly every car had a driver called to the stewards and were issued a warning for doing this in qualifying. You're exploiting the bugs. You've let me down, you've let clean racers down & more importantly, you've let yourself down.

this may be true but the track in pCARS is essentially in 2013 spec when running wide in Tertre Rouge WAS allowed.

justonce68
22-06-2015, 16:01
Track limits is white line. I do time trials with-in white line

Charlie Whiting quotes
"Fundamentally, a driver is required to use the track at all times. If any part of the car remains within the boundaries of the white lines, he is deemed to be using the track. If he has all four wheels over the white lines, heís off the track."
Unfortunately every track defines their track limits so what some may deem as cheating others make not.
For the purposes of time trials in the game I would like to see the white line as track limits (clean lap) ,but tighten up the penalty system on races where people purposely cut corners

timmy762
22-06-2015, 16:54
beautifully done, wish i was fast enough to do this kind of thing, really made me smile. :)

oneBIGkicker
22-06-2015, 18:45
Find it so funny using the word Cheater, while you go outside white lines yourself!!!
till the tack limits are fixed, STOP calling other players cheaters.

Yes, some are using every inch the GAME says is OK to use. Some use just and extra inch or two, BOTH Should be caught by GAME and lap made dirty.

You must use every inch of track to set fast time.
We all know in between whit lines, But one inch outside is SAME as 5ft outside.

Till game is fixed, TT is pointless.
And IF fixed, they MUST wipe leader boards or it will be a bigger joke.

Knightfall
22-06-2015, 20:00
Find it so funny using the word Cheater, while you go outside white lines yourself!!!
till the tack limits are fixed, STOP calling other players cheaters.

Yes, some are using every inch the GAME says is OK to use. Some use just and extra inch or two, BOTH Should be caught by GAME and lap made dirty.

You must use every inch of track to set fast time.
We all know in between whit lines, But one inch outside is SAME as 5ft outside.

Till game is fixed, TT is pointless.
And IF fixed, they MUST wipe leader boards or it will be a bigger joke.

No, there is a clear difference between someone trying to cut chicane corners and someone trying to run a legal lap, this video is a perfect illustration of that.

If you are TRYING to cut corners to get a better time, then you are cheating, plain and simple.

xautos
22-06-2015, 20:26
i raised this same arguement the other day about draconian penalties. humans are not machines no matter what some "pro" sim racer thinks is acceptable or not from their spartan idea of the regulations. even pro racers get caught out by it, now blatant cutting the track should get a penalty for sure, but simple mistakes should not to a point. and what happens if another driver is forced out wide by another driver on their qualification lap or during the race but still have the ability to rejoin the track? the system was not designed for that type of thing and it sure as hell wasnt your fault for ending up off the track because of it, but you get punished and the one that took you off gets their lap in. in a situation like this, your lap time should count as long as you have a counter that will issue a lap invalidation if not on the track at that moment after being forced off and the driver who forced you off should have their own time canned as soon as they crossed the line. a number of rules need to be looked at frankly. there are one or two not fit for purpose and others that should have other types of penalties applied to them.

what you really need in pcars is an actual steward who can provide assistance in what is acceptable and what is not, what is defined fair and not. there is a lot of debate between the camps both for and against and there needs to be a clear answer and im sure as hell not going to end up in the middle of it.

Bobobski
22-06-2015, 20:33
I also have a view on cheating: Iím over 50 and if you are still young, fit and virile then youíre cheating! :D

oneBIGkicker
22-06-2015, 20:35
A simple mistake that takes you OUTSIDE White Lines should 1000% be a dirty lap!
If its not, they will run as Wide as they can till GAME calls it dirty.
1 inch Wide,is Same as 5 ft wide. BOTH outside white lines. BOTH Will make you faster if done right.

actual steward = WHITE LINES THAT ARE ENFORCED

ImStylinOnYaBro
22-06-2015, 20:54
nice driving and song. i was in a gt3 race online w/ a few clean racers i met online and we ended up having our final race at le mans for hte night because of this corner cutting. on the mulsann e chicanes, coming out of hte corner the car is in 2nd or 3rd gear, and from behind a car goes wizzing by - yep, you can pretty much go straight through the mulsanne chicanes. the guy had skill at corner cutting but once we got to indianapolis, arnage, and porchse curves, i was right back in the lead until the ford chicanes where he steamed straight through. imo there should be stricter corner cutting. all 4 wheels slightly off is fine (like him on the dunlop chicane) but those corner cuts at teh ford chicane are just too far. it completely defeats the purpose of time trials and any fun of chasing fast times when people straight up disregard corners. i myself was guilty of this when first getting the game at monaco w/ stock cars, i was chasing a top time where the guy cut sainte devotte, nouvelle chicane, and pool chicanes. i eventually got hte quicker time by .3 seconds and as of now i think my time is 5 seconds slower which is just laughable the amount of cutting that takes place to get 5 seconds quicker.

kostek
22-06-2015, 21:06
He cutted 3 corners, you're driving from the roof top...

:) good job, nice driving.

Marakusu
22-06-2015, 21:44
And all those who don't use cockpit/helmet cam view, are cheaters too :rolleyes:

kostek
23-06-2015, 20:50
And all those who don't use cockpit/helmet cam view, are cheaters too :rolleyes:

Tested this while ago, you're about 0,5 - 1 sec faster when cam is above, then in cockpit/helmet cam, once you get use to it. It's just you see more of the car, so you can use more track. Especialy in open wheel street tracks, like Monaco.

Marakusu
23-06-2015, 21:44
Tested this while ago, you're about 0,5 - 1 sec faster when cam is above, then in cockpit/helmet cam, once you get use to it. It's just you see more of the car, so you can use more track. Especialy in open wheel street tracks, like Monaco.

Too bad though that sense of speed is mostly missing using cockpit/helmet cam....bumper cam has great sense of speed.

Herege
23-06-2015, 22:00
I see no problem in video images, it simply takes what the game allows. The problem is the development of the game, not the user. If it is allowed, it does.It has left a new patch and I do not think this type of situations any priority to be corrected. What it does is what everyone can do. ask consciousness in video games is almost an uphill task. The game developers always leave room to cheat, and this game is no different from many others.