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View Full Version : Game pad steering "over lock" restriction.



danowat
26-06-2015, 11:44
One of the big issues with using a gamepad in PCars is that there is no steering dampening, now I know some people don't like this, so the fact that it's not there is understandable, however, there is a problem because of this.

As pad owners don't have the luxury of FFB to inform them when they are trying to "over lock" the steering, and as it is very, very easy for a pad player to go from lock to lock extremely quickly (much quicker than you could IRL), I really think we need some kind of steering "over lock" restriction.

By this I mean that the game can detect when you are inputting much more steering lock than is required and would the car steer past this limit.

This would help with the problem that pad players get with the outer front tyre overheating from going to lock to quickly, and having much more lock than is needed to get round a corner.

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 12:02
Speed sensitivity does exactly what you are talking about ... if set high, bad drivers then go out of the corner instead of overturning ... bad driving will be bad driving and there is no way to help that.

danowat
26-06-2015, 12:20
Speed sensitivity does exactly what you are talking about ... if set high, bad drivers then go out of the corner instead of overturning ... bad driving will be bad driving and there is no way to help that.

Yes, but it's tied to speed, which can cause a problem with getting enough steering lock on fast corners if you set it too high.

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 12:39
Yes, but it's tied to speed, which can cause a problem with getting enough steering lock on fast corners if you set it too high.

Yeah ive seen this problem for a while....Too high speed sense setting n the car is stable but prevents you from taking slower corners at a higher speed.....Too low n vice versa, plus i also noticed that tyre wear and heat is alot higher on a lower setting compared too high.
I think youve just got to find the right balance, between the track,car,tyres etc, but i agree its crazy that a controller setting needs to be changed every second day, and can affect your lap times etc....
Controller should be a set config with the car tuning making the difference as it becomes labourious changing settings over n over.

The clio for example set at between 75-100 will not take slow corners..
But set at 65 n below will easily, the only problem now is exaggerated tyre wear n heat plus a v twitchy car on the rest of the track lol..
Just got too keep playing with different settings until hopefully we get an in and out deadzone.

Still a beast of a game just a shame about multiplayer.

danowat
26-06-2015, 12:43
Yeah ive seen this problem for a while....Too high speed sense setting n the car is stable but prevents you from taking slower corners at a higher speed.....Too low n vice versa, plus i also noticed that tyre wear and heat is alot higher on a lower setting compared too high.
I think youve just got to find the right balance, between the track,car,tyres etc, but i agree its crazy that a controller setting needs to be changed every second day, and can affect your lap times etc....
Controller should be a set config with the car tuning making the difference as it becomes labourious changing settings over n over.

Yup, means you start having to adjust the controller settings per track (proliferation of fast and slow corners per track), which is a very inelegant system.

danowat
26-06-2015, 13:00
And in any case, doesn't speed sensitive steering just reduce lock at high speeds?, does it actually do anything at lower speeds? isn't it a setting design to reduce twitchiness at high speed?

It's lower speed corners where over locking the steering can cause bigger tyre heat/wear issues

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 13:17
It is proportional to speed .. so it does "something" in lower speeds (just less than in higher ones)

Also, you don't need to modify settings for each track .. you just need to find settings that suit your abilities and driving style ...
There are smooth gamepad players ... Maybe all weird behaving drivers on track are pad players, but not all pad players are behaving weird on track.

danowat
26-06-2015, 13:21
It is proportional to speed .. so it does "something" in lower speeds (just less than in higher ones)

Also, you don't need to modify settings for each track .. you just need to find settings that suit your abilities and driving style ...
There are smooth gamepad players ... Maybe all weird behaving drivers on track are pad players, but not all pad players are behaving weird on track.

I'm smooth, smoothness isn't the issue, it's just very difficult, with such a short throw of the analog stick from zero lock, to full lock that it is hard to modulate the amount of lock during tight and / or slow turns, which can cause issues with tyre heat, wheel users have the physical force of FFB to indicate when the physical limits of steering lock are being reached, and as such have a physical indication not to add anymore steering lock.

I know PCars wasn't designed with pads in mind, I get that, and if it were possible I'd be using a wheel.

Are we saying nothing can be done that already hasn't been done to try and make this issue less of an issue?

In regards to speed sensitive steering, can you outline, in laymans terms if possible, what high and low settings of speed sensitive steering will do?

As far as I understood, it was just smoothing out the steering inputs as the speed increased, and high settings would give a greater amount of smoothing, at a slower speed than low settings would.

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 14:14
There is no "smoothing" ... You get the "smoother" input because of limiting maximum steering lock. That is what speed sensitivity mainly does. With increasing speed your maximum steering lock decreases, making the input less sensitive. The higher the speed sensitivity is set, the lower the maximum steering angle at maximum speed is (so with it set to 100, you will hardly be able to turn the wheels at all at maximum car speed).

Also stating that pCARS was not made with pad in mind is purely false ... just to let you know.

danowat
26-06-2015, 14:16
There is no "smoothing" ... The "smoother" input you get because of limiting maximum steering lock. That is what speed sensitivity mainly does. With increasing speed your maximum steering lock decreases making the input less sensitive. The higher the speed sensitivity is set, the lower the maximum steering angle at maximum speed is.

So it's not really helping in limiting the amount of over lock a pad player can produce in slow and tight corners then?.

So, speed sensitive steering reduces steering lock and high speeds, we could also do with something that limits the amount of lock at slower speeds too.

Either that, or dampened steering..........

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 14:19
No we can't ... that won't work for tight turns and chicanes. Why can't some people accept, that they have to learn, instead of wanting the game to do something for them? If you are oversteering, then you are most probably driving it wrong .. why not use assists then?

danowat
26-06-2015, 14:29
Any lock restriction would have to be dynamic, not just related to speed, the system would have to look at required lock, slip angles etc and adjust the restriction to suit, other games manage to do it, Forza in particular has a very good system with it's simulation vs normal steering options, I know some may scoff, and say "Forza?, pfft" though.

I know someone mentioned there was a dampened steering option in a previous build, but was removed, maybe that (as an option) might be good to revisit?

I don't need assists, I know how to drive sims, I have hundreds of thousand of hours in sims (LFS, iRacing etc etc), so it's not that I am a someone green and new to sims.

I don't expect the game to pander to me, it's a discussion point, I can quite easily carry on as it is, I know others have problems too, but for me it's not a game breaker, but I guess it's the engineer in me that sees a problem and wants to try and find a solution.

(fwiw, I am not sure any assist would help with the issue?)

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 14:32
But the dampening you just described is simply that - steering assist ....

There was no different dampening pre-patch.

There was even less dampened version of input during development (pre-release), which some did prefer .... that wouldn't have helped your case.

danowat
26-06-2015, 14:35
I can't remember who it was, but a dev said there was a dampened steering option in a pre-release build that they thought was good, but wasn't popular with testers.

How does the steering assist in PCars manifest itself?, in most sims it actually takes control of the steering for you (starts steering into a corner if you don't start steering early enough etc), is that also the case in PCars?

Martini Da Gasalini
26-06-2015, 14:40
Yeah ive seen this problem for a while....Too high speed sense setting n the car is stable but prevents you from taking slower corners at a higher speed.....Too low n vice versa, plus i also noticed that tyre wear and heat is alot higher on a lower setting compared too high.
I think youve just got to find the right balance, between the track,car,tyres etc, but i agree its crazy that a controller setting needs to be changed every second day, and can affect your lap times etc....
Controller should be a set config with the car tuning making the difference as it becomes labourious changing settings over n over.

The clio for example set at between 75-100 will not take slow corners..
But set at 65 n below will easily, the only problem now is exaggerated tyre wear n heat plus a v twitchy car on the rest of the track lol..
Just got too keep playing with different settings until hopefully we get an in and out deadzone.

Still a beast of a game just a shame about multiplayer.


I had an issue with this initially then I realized, that the coders left the def to you.


again this isn't need for speed, this game is left to you to realize the tweek of the vehicle you are driving, what you are asking is for a preset config based on what "someone" thinks should be a fit setting of controls for you.

Martini Da Gasalini
26-06-2015, 14:42
in most sims it actually takes control of the steering for you

most "sims" won't do this, you are talking about an arcade type of game.

danowat
26-06-2015, 14:44
again this isn't need for speed, this game is left to you to realize the tweek of the vehicle you are driving, what you are asking is for a preset config based on what "someone" thinks should be a fit setting of controls for you.

I understand that, but don't fall into the trap that just because one person is mentioning it, it's only them that see the issue ;)

I would tweak the game if the settings allowed, steering sensitivity is still way, way too high for pad users, even set at zero, we should be allowed to reduce that, also, it is possible to tweak it somewhat in the setup by reducing steering ratio, but again, it's not enough.

People shout realism from the rooftops, but the reality is, being able to go lock to lock in a fraction of a second is not realistic (yes, yes, I know driving with a pad is not realistic, yadda, yadda)

Jaroslav Turna
26-06-2015, 14:58
I understand that, but don't fall into the trap that just because one person is mentioning it, it's only them that see the issue ;)

I would tweak the game if the settings allowed, steering sensitivity is still way, way too high for pad users, even set at zero, we should be allowed to reduce that, also, it is possible to tweak it somewhat in the setup by reducing steering ratio, but again, it's not enough.

People shout realism from the rooftops, but the reality is, being able to go lock to lock in a fraction of a second is not realistic (yes, yes, I know driving with a pad is not realistic, yadda, yadda)

Truth is, that slower lock-to lock movement was there .. yes ... and if you meant that, then it was me, who said that (I'm author of mode 2 and co-designer of our gamepad input system). I got shouted at an awful lot because of that. Maybe we should have listened to the community less in some cases ... Thing is, that this way, you CAN turn in slower (I know it takes lot of training an thumbs precision) .... and those who want to drive like crazy still can.

Lanius1984
26-06-2015, 15:41
Truth is, that slower lock-to lock movement was there .. yes ... and if you meant that, then it was me, who said that (I'm author of mode 2 and co-designer of our gamepad input system). I got shouted at an awful lot because of that. Maybe we should have listened to the community less in some cases ... Thing is, that this way, you CAN turn in slower (I know it takes lot of training an thumbs precision) .... and those who want to drive like crazy still can.

Has there been a detailed post on this forum about the core differences between the 3 gamepad modes?
I've fiddled with all settings, and although I'm happy(ish) with the feel of the pad on PS4, I'm still not as comfortable as I've been with any other racing game.

I'd like to understand what the core differences are so that i can decide which base setting best suits my driving style, and whether there are any limitations (or pro's and con's) between the modes. Are you able to provide this info, or point me in the right direction of where it's been listed before, as it's not in the game?
Thanks.

danowat
26-06-2015, 16:17
Truth is, that slower lock-to lock movement was there .. yes ... and if you meant that, then it was me, who said that (I'm author of mode 2 and co-designer of our gamepad input system). I got shouted at an awful lot because of that. Maybe we should have listened to the community less in some cases ... Thing is, that this way, you CAN turn in slower (I know it takes lot of training an thumbs precision) .... and those who want to drive like crazy still can.

Thanks, I think, that we are probably on the same page ;-)

wraithsrike
26-06-2015, 16:34
Personally I wouldn't want dampened steering if your referring to that similar to what T10 do, it feels so fake.

The steering in Pcars for me is almost perfect on a Pad it's meant I've had to learn each car individually and suss out its limits but I'm cool with that.

Psychomatrix
26-06-2015, 16:51
The main problem for me is that the road cars to sensitive at slow speeds. When you must drive trough a slow chicane the car overreact and you can't correct it smoothly with the pad. With other cars specially formula, lmp or gt I don't have that behavior. That's the main reason I hate driving road cars in project cars. It's for me not understandable with the road cars must have that handling on controllers. the road cars are to sensitive even after patch 1.03.

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 16:55
I had an issue with this initially then I realized, that the coders left the def to you.


again this isn't need for speed, this game is left to you to realize the tweek of the vehicle you are driving, what you are asking is for a preset config based on what "someone" thinks should be a fit setting of controls for you.

I know how too drive n im not strugglin with the game, im purely giving advice and stating the fact that speed sensetivity works in both fast and slow corners, which can work for or against you on alot of tracks, resulting in changing settings every 2 secs.
What im saying is this option should be a set prefix and the actual car tuning should only affect your tyre wear/times.
Because i guarantee you now that set at 60 as to 80 u will be at least a second a lap faster, but will destroy your tyres after 3 laps, vice versa.
Too many options that havnt been explained in enough detail for your average gamer = problems.

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 17:00
Adjusting pad settings should not make you faster or slower from track to track, it should have just been deadzones affecting input response...

madmax2069
26-06-2015, 17:32
Adjusting pad settings should not make you faster or slower from track to track, it should have just been deadzones affecting input response...

Actually it will due to the fact each person has their own preference when it comes to how the thumbstick reacts in the game. A thumbstick thats too twitchy for someone that doesnt like a over sensitive thumbstick will be slower around the track because its something they are not comfortable with, and the same is true for the opposite.

I run one controller setting for all cars on any track. I adjusted the settings that close enough to my preference level and made it work for me by learning it.

wraithsrike
26-06-2015, 17:36
The main problem for me is that the road cars to sensitive at slow speeds. When you must drive trough a slow chicane the car overreact and you can't correct it smoothly with the pad. With other cars specially formula, lmp or gt I don't have that behavior. That's the main reason I hate driving road cars in project cars. It's for me not understandable with the road cars must have that handling on controllers. the road cars are to sensitive even after patch 1.03.

I had this problem buddy, have you tried putting the lock to lock on slow in the tuning menu and lowering the front tyre pressures?

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 17:44
Actually it will due to the fact each person has their own preference when it comes to how the thumbstick reacts in the game. A thumbstick thats too twitchy for someone that doesnt like a over sensitive thumbstick will be slower around the track because its something they are not comfortable with, and the same is true for the opposite.
Yeah but thats not the car thats the driver, im talking about the actual car being affected.
Yeah finding a good setup that suits you will always benefit you alone, but adjusting a setting for a pad shouldnt make the car faster or slower.
Ive driven a fair few consistant laps to realise that this setting is/and will affect the car and times achieved.
Twitchy is twitchy n slow is slow but it still doesnt affect the cars performance.

madmax2069
26-06-2015, 18:08
Yeah but thats not the car thats the driver, im talking about the actual car being affected.
Yeah finding a good setup that suits you will always benefit you alone, but adjusting a setting for a pad shouldnt make the car faster or slower.
Ive driven a fair few consistant laps to realise that this setting is/and will affect the car and times achieved.
Twitchy is twitchy n slow is slow but it still doesnt affect the cars performance.

controller settings doesn't make the car grip more, or have more power, or have a different gear ratio, or change the suspension and alignment. Using a controller setting that you're not comfortable with will have a negative effect on your lap times because you're struggling with the car due to the controller settings regardless of how the car is set up. You first have to get the controller settings to your liking then tune the car setup itself.

FAster
26-06-2015, 19:06
Do we have steering lock setting in the game ?

wraithsrike
26-06-2015, 19:21
Do we have steering lock setting in the game ?

Yes look in tuning menu.

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 19:40
controller settings doesn't make the car grip more, or have more power, or have a different gear ratio, or change the suspension and alignment. Using a controller setting that you're not comfortable with will have a negative effect on your lap times because you're struggling with the car due to the controller settings regardless of how the car is set up. You first have to get the controller settings to your liking then tune the car setup itself.
.....n what does having more lock available do???? Oh yeah makes the car faster on at least 50% of tracks.
So it doesnt matter about how twitchy or unresponsive you like the car you should still get the lock available, but in this game you will lose a % of lock each time you make the car less twitchy therefore making the car slower...
So do you think its fair that a driver who likes a smooth car feeling will always be slower than the twitchy setup driver?
Exactly twitchy or slow it should not affect the steering lock % given and it does.
But hey hoe crack on use what you like, its only advice that alot of people dont even know about....
Loving the game ...:angel:

EMW Simmo
26-06-2015, 19:48
controller settings doesn't make the car grip more, or have more power, or have a different gear ratio, or change the suspension and alignment. Using a controller setting that you're not comfortable with will have a negative effect on your lap times because you're struggling with the car due to the controller settings regardless of how the car is set up. You first have to get the controller settings to your liking then tune the car setup itself.

Actually all of the above is incorrect aswell because having more lock will give you more grip/cornering speed and will affect corner exit speed oh and will affect gear ratios oh and alignment aswell so thats a tad flawed.
No im really going now lol....anyway its speed sensetivety, try adjusting up n down for those interested it will be a big help/factor.
Between 50 n 100 ...

Psychomatrix
26-06-2015, 23:32
I had this problem buddy, have you tried putting the lock to lock on slow in the tuning menu and lowering the front tyre pressures?

Thanks for the hint :) I will try this when I drive the next road car.

SpeedLimitUnknown
27-06-2015, 07:27
I understand that, but don't fall into the trap that just because one person is mentioning it, it's only them that see the issue ;)

I would tweak the game if the settings allowed, steering sensitivity is still way, way too high for pad users, even set at zero, we should be allowed to reduce that, also, it is possible to tweak it somewhat in the setup by reducing steering ratio, but again, it's not enough.

People shout realism from the rooftops, but the reality is, being able to go lock to lock in a fraction of a second is not realistic (yes, yes, I know driving with a pad is not realistic, yadda, yadda)

You are right. Although I use a wheel now (not so much with the FFB G27 issues in v1.4) I spent a lot of time fiddling with gamepad controller settings at launch. I recommended they add more range to the sensitivity scale on the low end (I feel like I could go to - 50!) as the wheels and steering are still quite twitchy at 0. Another useful slider would be 'return to center' that affects how quickly the wheels return to straight position. Currently they move far faster on a ganepad than they could if using a wheel. It's more of a problem at low speeds where you can go lock to lock in half the time it takes for a wheel to do the same thing. I'm not sure that even makes sense right now, it's late and I'm tired lol.

Gooseone
27-06-2015, 08:47
Any lock restriction would have to be dynamic, not just related to speed, the system would have to look at required lock, slip angles etc and adjust the restriction to suit, other games manage to do it, Forza in particular has a very good system with it's simulation vs normal steering options, I know some may scoff, and say "Forza?, pfft" though.

I know someone mentioned there was a dampened steering option in a previous build, but was removed, maybe that (as an option) might be good to revisit?

I don't need assists, I know how to drive sims, I have hundreds of thousand of hours in sims (LFS, iRacing etc etc), so it's not that I am a someone green and new to sims.

I don't expect the game to pander to me, it's a discussion point, I can quite easily carry on as it is, I know others have problems too, but for me it's not a game breaker, but I guess it's the engineer in me that sees a problem and wants to try and find a solution.

(fwiw, I am not sure any assist would help with the issue?)

You ask for the lock settings to be automatically perfect in each corner before stating that you don't need assists and know how to drive?
I drive cockpit view and i have speed sensitivity set to 15, i set is that low because i felt limited in slower corners so it's surely doing something there.
I use the cockpit view so that i can use the wheel to gauge how much i'm turning, if you use other camera views this becomes hard to do and you'll be more dependent on speed sensitivity.
Currently there's not much, if any rumble /FFB when the tires lose grip, i do hope this will improve so that it becomes easier to get a sense of overdriving the car.
Also, from what i've gathered, the tire sounds are adjusted in the upcoming patch so that will be another indicator of overdriving to aid a bit.

There's also dampening on the input, you can turn it off in the advanced menu and see what it does, you can also increase controller filtering to get a more "dampened feel" if you like.
I'd also suggest to make sure you have opposite lock help turned off because that can override speed sensitivity settings when you countersteer.

Concerning the sensitivity, i'm beginning to think it's not the actual sensitivity which needs to be adjusted but that steering centers to fast when there's no stick input.
When i am trying not to overdrive a corner ;), i don't have much issue manipulating the stick accordingly in small increments while it can pose an issue with slight adjustments from center.
Don't know if this "issue" can easily improve though.

SeeNoWeevil
27-06-2015, 21:02
I'd really like to see a developer list what each option is actually doing to the players input and how it maps to your cars steering. Sensitivity for example, is that how linear the mapping is?

Gooseone
28-06-2015, 08:52
I'd really like to see a developer list what each option is actually doing to the players input and how it maps to your cars steering. Sensitivity for example, is that how linear the mapping is?

Yup, 50 is linear and is the default setting for wheels. Lower than 50 and it starts to become a gradual sloping curve, higher then 50 and it becomes a faster rising curve.
Adjusting the steering ratio in the car setup menu further adjusts the linearity curve where setting it slower is akin to lowering sensitivity, jury is still out as to how effective this is on pads vs wheels though.
(I'm no developer though).