PDA

View Full Version : Statement on the Frontpage of ProjectCars is a Slap in the Face of every clean racer!



arveena
26-06-2015, 16:41
"Hey all, so there were two main items that had to be addressed before the Championship Standings could be updated this time around and we thought there should be full visibility of them...

Firstly an internal technical issue prevented us from retrieving the leaderboards on PlayStation 4. This meant we could not verify the logs for over a week but this has since been rectified. Whilst we could have done it 'by hand', we want to assure all participants that we never rely solely on this and always prefer to work from the cold, hard stats and then verify that they match what players are seeing within the interface of the actual game itself.

Secondly though - and most importantly - we were unable to verify the times posted by members of SDL Motorsport on Xbox One due to a lack of ghost data being available. As has been stated multiple times, any suspicious or fraudulent times posted will be investigated. In this particular case, the times posted by SDL Motorsport were significantly faster than those posted on other platforms by other teams and individuals which warranted action being taken.

Without ghost data being available, we worked with SDL Motorsport to provide video evidence of their laps with the hope that we could see whether excessive track cutting was used, especially on chicanes and on the large run-off area approaching the grandstand at the Le Mans circuit.

With community discussions already occurring on improvements to the track cutting system coming soon in Feature Update 2.0 and with the understanding from SDL Motorsport that their intentions are not to cheat the system the decision is that their times will be included for this round, however we have now introduced a new requirement that all participants must submit ghost data in order to allow us to verify times in future.

Pro gamers are the aspirational players we all look up to and therefore as public figures they should be both proud and eager to showcase their skills for all to see. By providing their ghost data for others to view it also encourages healthy competition as 'tricks of the trade' can be learned more players to reach faster times and higher Championship Standings positions.

We hope that this rule change, together with significant updates to the track cutting system, and continual monitoring of times posted will ensure a healthy, reliable, competitive environment going forward. And we'll continue to work with both the community at large and the eSport teams to achieve this."



So why is this statement a Slap to the Face of all honest Racers?

Before I start explaining this and why I am doing this thread. I want first to make clear this one should not turn into a flamewar. You can discuss everything here but I will try to keep this my statement as serious as possible and please everyone else should try to do so. There are a lot of threads about this Topic which are obviously heated and you can get your flamewars there.

So first of all the current situation with a few facts:


The championship is abused by cutters cheaters wallriders and exploiters (pitstop exploits) since round 1
Nevertheless they were given Points from round 1 till now.
This leads to every clean racer abandoning the championship meaning they have no competetion.
A few rounds were re-Run but not all.
Some ghosts got deleted but not all
There are no visible track limits but it was stated that cutting is not allowed
After that Statement there were still given points to the cheating/cutting guys



So now to my questions to the Dev's

You know the issue. Why not stopping the championship at its current state where only cutting and cheating gives you a top spot?
Don't you think it is bad for the development of the game as an Esport title?
Why did you re-Run only 2 rounds?
Why did you re-Run them at all when you knew there would be cuts again.
Why are you glorifying all these obvious cutters and cheating guys on your start page of your game?

Then now to the Statement after I read it I could not believe it. You know how easy it is to corrupt your ghost and that it needs to be done on purpose and everyone else who was slower was already cutting like hell. So you can be sure they cut and still you are counting their times and you stated multiple times that cutting will not be tolerated. But you are still doing this. It is a slap in the Face for all clean and fair racers out there and it lets me loose all my hope of this title beeing an esport title anytime soon. Which I think it could be. I think there is a huge market for a good looking Simracing Esport title and project cars could make this happen. It needs a bit polish like a better replay system etc but it could be really good. Also in your statement about PC2 there were some very cool features for an Esport Title but if you continue like that there will be no community for that to happen.

Also as you could see in the latest TT the guys who you led get away with all that cutting and cheating are not even the fastest guys. I can promise you there are a lot faster guys than me out there and I still managed to beat all the cutters and cheaters (so called Pro Players in your statement) in my first try in a TT in this game. So why am I complaining that much? I am hoping this game makes a step into Esports but with the current championship I do not see that happening.

What is my solution?

I know that fixing the Tracklimits can be really hard and also hosting every Esportevent even if it is a TT is super hard as there are always people trying to exploit your game. I have a Bachelor degree in computer science so I know that the Track cutting fixes are very hard to implement without destroying onlineraces and AI. Also I was active in the Dota and WOW arena PRoscene and know that some players will do everything to exploit and cheat but this needs to be handled in a way which tells the normal player that this is not tolerated. So instead of handling the so called "Pros" with kid gloves and letting them get away with everything there should be another solution. What you are doing now just makes the game just completly uninteresting for Esport as a whole.

Again what is my solution:

Stop the championship and Reset all points until there is a somewhat clear and fair tracklimit in the game.
When you restart the championship make clear that every cheating and cutting or exploiting will not be tolerated.
If it happens instantly delete the time and ban the driver or organisation from the championship. (You are having Esport on your main page as a Tab so please start acting like you would care)
Do not give away any prices anymore to guys who cheated in this championship as it would really give this game a bad taste when it starts like that. I would go that far cancel the Championship and start again for round 2.

You also need to setup clear Rules that you need to accept when entering an Event in which is stated that cutting and cheating will not be tolerated so you can actually do something about it. It is very important if you want a title to be an esport title that the Pro Players have a connection to the casuals. But right now the so called "Pros" are the cheating guys and no one is interessted in their skills and there wont be a competetive scene because of that and SMS is the company who lets everyone away with abusing cheating etc


Edit: I also want to add that corrupting you ghost to let noone see how much you cut has nothing to do with cutting or tracklimits or this discussion it is just cheating. There should not be a second chance for that and if you count in your statment that cutting should not be tolerated you are giving them a third chance as they already ignored that statement. Is this the kind of people you want to represent the game on a professional level?

saidur9
26-06-2015, 20:27
Ghost data available requirement, I thought that was automated so if you do a really fast time and it doesn't upload, you are basically done for? So far times deleted seem to be a game glitch, not exploiting and don't get to run the event again as time is only deleted after even if requested to be deleted during the event (Not very fair at all). Now it seems people who are unlucky enough for ghost data not to be uploaded will be punished and if it is a good lap will be hard to beat with a new lap that may / may not upload. People who intently go out to not drive on track get rewarded with prizes and points even if they are told they won't be.

Anyway I could have said it a lot fewer words that new statement. "Cheaters prosper."

Says on same page:


UPDATE 27TH MAY - Times achieved through tactics that would have incurred a penalty in real life will henceforth be ignored. Additionally, further improvements to the Track Cutting system are currently in progress with the aim of nullifying the ability to shortcut chicanes and 'wall-ride' around armco.

What happened is they went out of their way to ensure them times stood. What is point of talking about rule change when each time the people who follow it are the ones who get punished and the ones who don't get rewarded. Would be easier to say, any form of cheating goes in this eSports competition as long as the game allows it apart from unfortunate game glitches, then it is tough luck.

danpinho
26-06-2015, 21:34
The OP is right. I'm too old for this and I have suspended all and any online events or even TT.
I'm loosing interest in MP races either. This is not even close to what I call a fair gameplay. Let's see what 2.0 brings. I love this game but it need some improvements and track boudaries is one of them.

Pink_650S
26-06-2015, 21:48
Agreed.
You cant have a competition with prizes on the line, when cheating is involved.

Umer Ahmad
26-06-2015, 21:53
Note from the 2.0Patch log

* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.

Maybe some help is on the way here?

danpinho
26-06-2015, 21:56
Note from the 2.0Patch log
* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.
Maybe some help is on the way here?

It clearly seems to me that PCars studio is moving towards the improvement of this game.
I thank you for that.

Pink_650S
26-06-2015, 22:18
Note from the 2.0Patch log

* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.

Maybe some help is on the way here?

Maybe is the right word tbh.
As much as l appreciate the team's work and effort, l only believe the improvements when l see them.
Because 1.4 promised a lot too, but couldnt keep some of them.

Umer Ahmad
26-06-2015, 22:22
It clearly seems to me that PCars studio is moving towards the improvement of this game.
I thank you for that.


Let me tell you all something: They see everything written here. If it's important to the community they will do their best to support it.

Pink_650S
26-06-2015, 22:25
Let me tell you all something: They see everything written here. If it's important to the community they will do their best to support it.

I dont think any serious member of the Project Cars community questions this.

arveena
26-06-2015, 22:36
Note from the 2.0Patch log

* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.

Maybe some help is on the way here?

I hope that but the main part of the post is not about the cutting there are millions of post about it and of course I read the Patchnotes. It is about how the situation gets handled and how actual cheating and misleading etc is tolerated. Because that is what happend not cutting it was deliberately fooling the community and the Dev's and they still got away with it. (The Ghost corruption is just a step over the line that is not exploiting that is cheating)
Also this championship is no longer maintainable with all the cutting and cheating involved in the first rounds .R eally bad press in my opinion for this game as an esport.
I am not calling for any sort of punishment here. I am just saying this championship is not maintainable and if the so called "Pro" players can prove themselves under fair conditions I am fine with that but not with the current state. Even though I would have handled the situation different it is now the situation we are in and I am just searching for options to keep this "Esport" somewhat alive. As you can see at the moment the fast and clean drivers are not interested at all in this championship.

Also this post has nothing to do with the game and the development of the game as a whole. The game is great the patches are great. The work of the team is great. Communicaton is normaly very well done. It is just the Esportpart were it seems they are lacking something maybe experience I don't know but there were some questionable decisions which upset a lot of people and I was just giving "advice" as I already did some sort of Esport and I am also somewhat involved at it at work.
Every Game has its cheater exploiter etc in the first days or weeks of its lifetime. It is how you handle that what makes a difference in the longterm succes of an "Esport" title. The top guys should be under harder restrictions than the casual not the other way around. Trackmania for example has its own subculture for cutting and exploiting but if a "Pro" does somes sort of cut or exploit in an actual tournament they are done. They can do that in their freetime when no one watches but not in a "championship"

OperatorWay
26-06-2015, 23:03
I believe that the long-term success of the Project CARS brand absolutely hinges on how easily & fairly people can play the game together (not just solo/offline). Without a fair & level playing field for balanced competition in the spirit of authentic motorsport, along with the kinds of multiplayer features that can bring more people together more frequently in the game, I think it'll be difficult for more communities/leagues/clubs/teams to form around the game & thrive.

RTA nOsKiLlS
27-06-2015, 02:14
Strange that SDL's ghosts were not available. My privacy settings dont allow other Xbox users to see my ghosts, but that does not stop my xbox from uploading my ghost to the servers.

xLeper_Messiah
27-06-2015, 04:48
Note from the 2.0Patch log

* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.

Maybe some help is on the way here?

As nice as that sounds, fixing the track limits is pointless without also wiping the leaderboards and restarting the community event championship imo. I just worry that SMS won't be willing to do that; they've stating something about manually removing times by reviewing ghosts but what about times with no ghost data?

Like anyone below the top page (on PS4, not sure if it's different for other platforms) doesn't have a ghost. I have one time on California Highway that doesn't have a ghost because my ps4 crashed when I exited, the time uploaded but no ghost even though at the time it was a top 5 time. What about those cases?

I think a full wipe of all boards is the fairest and easiest solution, once the track limits for all tracks have been fixed for good.

Andy Tudor
27-06-2015, 09:25
An update here...

We have received troubling new information regarding SDL Motorsport and further investigation is now being done. We will not hesitate to remove points from both players and teams if we believe their times were achieved by nefarious means.

GT-Club_Atho_
27-06-2015, 10:13
Are you serious to say " re starting all the championship" lol i think you've not spend hours and hours on the 6 rounds...

The best solution i think is to stop the championship until the tracks limits were fixed ;)

arveena
27-06-2015, 15:19
An update here...

We have received troubling new information regarding SDL Motorsport and further investigation is now being done. We will not hesitate to remove points from both players and teams if we believe their times were achieved by nefarious means.

Thanks for that information Andy.

@antho while I completely understand your frustration. The point is that when someone wins this championship who has cut on one track or more this will leave a very bad taste in the community meaning there wont be any competetion because "those guys cheated" also believe people and companys who are interested in sponsoring and supporting Esports they know these things the read forums. They wont support this game when cutting is or was omnipresent in the championship. Also you pushed the limits of the game so far it should be no suprise for you that this discussion comes up. In my opinion your and the other guys behaviour just hurts the game as a whole and the community.

Additonaly Pro players should never be shy of any form of competetion they should welcome it and there is no way anyone who drives clean and fair can compete with you guys for the rest of the season. You are miles infront because of cutting. I am going this far and say when this gets restarted under fair conditions the drivers in this championship will double.

Alan Dallas
28-06-2015, 03:03
As nice as that sounds, fixing the track limits is pointless without also wiping the leaderboards and restarting the community event championship imo. I just worry that SMS won't be willing to do that; they've stating something about manually removing times by reviewing ghosts but what about times with no ghost data?

Like anyone below the top page (on PS4, not sure if it's different for other platforms) doesn't have a ghost. I have one time on California Highway that doesn't have a ghost because my ps4 crashed when I exited, the time uploaded but no ghost even though at the time it was a top 5 time. What about those cases?

I think a full wipe of all boards is the fairest and easiest solution, once the track limits for all tracks have been fixed for good.
That's a bit like tossing the baby out with the bath water. Especially when the Devs can look at the top times and ghosts(provided one uploaded) and Steward the lap themselves.

Deadzone
28-06-2015, 03:16
The problem is Ghost's are only viewable for the top 30 positions, what about all the illegitimate times outside the top 30. Those times are still going to skew the results.

xLeper_Messiah
28-06-2015, 04:23
Exactly what Deadzone said above, manually stewarding the lap is a nice idea if all you care about is the validity of the top times. Anything below the top 30 or times with no ghost data attached (whether intentionally hidden or not) will still skew the results. I think this baby kind of needs to be tossed with the bath water imo...

OperatorWay
28-06-2015, 04:40
That's a bit like tossing the baby out with the bath water...

More like tossing the poo out with the toilet water.

Charles Gillen
28-06-2015, 05:41
Allen, you seem to be seeing this problem from the top down. The reason I want to see the LB wiped has nothing to do with the top 10 or the top 100 for that matter. The LB competition is much more that just the same 5 or 6 guys getting prizes.

People who are at 500 or more still have cut times. Just because they havent jeprodized the top 20 does not make them any less cheats. The LBs are a way to gauge your skill against other players. Notice I said "Skill" and not the ability to circumvent the track for the appearance of a good lap. If I can practice and get my car cleanly into the top 100, I'm usually satisfied with that. But if 50 or 60 laps are cut or exploited in front of my lap, then the competition for me is useless.

I'm using myself as an example, but, every person who takes the time to participate should get the same respect as those top 10 drivers do. So wiping those times is crucial to this being a competition that is above reproach. And a clean slate with improved track limits will be a good way to make this a much better competition for everyone who plays.

Charles

FA RACING 01
28-06-2015, 06:49
The problem is Ghost's are only viewable for the top 30 positions, what about all the illegitimate times outside the top 30. Those times are still going to skew the results.

I did'nt now that. So what if none of the top 30 pass the "test" ? The current Dubai LB on XB (community challenge) is very close to that.

Deadzone
28-06-2015, 06:58
I did'nt now that. So what if none of the top 30 pass the "test" ? The current Dubai LB on XB (community challenge) is very close to that.

Then the person in 31st position will become the no.1 if they remove all 30 because of track cuts. Then that 31st position will be at the top of the LB with no ghost and no way to tell if it's clean or not. At least that's how I see how it works, unless SMS have access to all ghosts and not just the top 30. I don't know, I'm not a developer.

FA RACING 01
28-06-2015, 07:24
Then the person in 31st position will become the no.1 if they remove all 30 because of track cuts. Then that 31st position will be at the top of the LB with no ghost and no way to tell if it's clean or not. At least that's how I see how it works, unless SMS have access to all ghosts and not just the top 30. I don't know, I'm not a developer.

Noted. Thanks.

GT-Club_Atho_
28-06-2015, 07:33
Thanks for that information Andy.

@antho while I completely understand your frustration. The point is that when someone wins this championship who has cut on one track or more this will leave a very bad taste in the community meaning there wont be any competetion because "those guys cheated" also believe people and companys who are interested in sponsoring and supporting Esports they know these things the read forums. They wont support this game when cutting is or was omnipresent in the championship. Also you pushed the limits of the game so far it should be no suprise for you that this discussion comes up. In my opinion your and the other guys behaviour just hurts the game as a whole and the community.


I also think it is a bad advertisement for e-sports. After, teams on top(SDL BAM Attax etc ...) are used for years to fight to be # 1 on the different championships and against the clock. You say that the winner will be bad publicity as it will cut. But the winner would have been the same without cutting as seen on Brands Hatch Oulton Park or Barcelona.

fiesling
28-06-2015, 08:00
guys do it like me play something else until they fix it or release the update called pcars2 ;pp

lol

actually that is all what can force them really to work on it ... but if you guys stay and take it as ok then they wont do anything soon i worry !

we are stupid beta testers for them i swear !

greetings,

Joni Varis
28-06-2015, 08:00
I also think it is a bad advertisement for e-sports. After, teams on top(SDL BAM Attax etc ...) are used for years to fight to be # 1 on the different championships and against the clock. You say that the winner will be bad publicity as it will cut. But the winner would have been the same without cutting as seen on Brands Hatch Oulton Park or Barcelona.

You are kidding right? Well show me then someone who does below 1.17.3 without straightlining the last chicanes at barcelona. Obviously cant see the sector times of xbox/PS4, but on pc who cutted the chicanes gained 1s+on last sector, and they werent more than 5 tenths or so faster than my time ( which was 17.3 done without cuts ). About Brands hatch & oulton, its mentioned allready several times that many of the fast guys didnt even take part to those, so using those as overall benchmarks is rather useless.

WRT IVORBIGUN
28-06-2015, 09:38
Could all WMD members please answer me this.

Whilst playing the builds of Project Cars was the track penalty system working? I ask because, as I have mentioned many times before, I cannot understand why these tracks which have potential to be corner cut, were not discovered whilst playing the various builds.

I posted a youtube video of my Sonoma laptime and recieved alot of flak for it. However by doing so, SMS could view this video and see where the track cutting potential is.

My point is when WMD members were playing the various builds of Project Cars they should of been trying to corner cut every corner on every track to properly test the track penalty system. The failure of doing so has resulted in these problems because the info was not passed onto SMS. Ironically it seems to me that the majority who are moaning are actually WMD members.

Very soon I shall be posting a video of my lap around Dubai. Im not doing this because I want to highlight my laptime but because I wish to expose the faults on the track and where you can cut. Those who played the various builds should of done this themselves rather than complaning about those who are currently corner cutting!!

saidur9
28-06-2015, 09:40
An update here...

We have received troubling new information regarding SDL Motorsport and further investigation is now being done. We will not hesitate to remove points from both players and teams if we believe their times were achieved by nefarious means.
I don't see problem personally as so far all previous times where there has been heavy cutting the times stood so how would one stop ghost uploading and what is the benefit if missing corners gives you points and prizes anyway? Only times where a glitch has happened in the game which shows completely impossible laptimes and sectors time have been deleted, no fault by the player. There has been no signs of hacking so far, so really don't see the need of ghost data being needed. Glitch times are always incredibly low so easy to spot and corner cutting times at the top will be quite close together and it is not like the drivers are rubbish. Rule change will probably only punish genuine drivers IMO at the moment, don't know scope on PC to do hacked times as there appears no one has managed to yet but thought consoles will be more safe regarding modifications.


You are kidding right? Well show me then someone who does below 1.17.3 without straightlining the last chicanes at barcelona. Obviously cant see the sector times of xbox/PS4, but on pc who cutted the chicanes gained 1s+on last sector, and they werent more than 5 tenths or so faster than my time ( which was 17.3 done without cuts ). About Brands hatch & oulton, its mentioned allready several times that many of the fast guys didnt even take part to those, so using those as overall benchmarks is rather useless.
Didn't Ti-tech85 do a 1:17.296, haven't checked his ghost but he is a super fast clean driver. Anyway on that event I have 0 points now, seemed really slow to you guys in the last sector though. I wonder if something in setup as I had really poor low speed grip where the car would spin just by turning into the corner. Funny thing is my first two sectors are faster than time number 1 on PC, if I cutted like them, I could have got potentially 50 points. If rules stated were enforced, I would have got potentially 40 points.

Joni Varis
28-06-2015, 09:58
I don't see problem personally as so far all previous times where there has been heavy cutting the times stood so how would one stop ghost uploading and what is the benefit if missing corners gives you points and prizes anyway? Only times where a glitch has happened in the game which shows completely impossible laptimes and sectors time have been deleted, no fault by the player. There has been no signs of hacking so far, so really don't see the need of ghost data being needed. Glitch times are always incredibly low so easy to spot and corner cutting times at the top will be quite close together and it is not like the drivers are rubbish. Rule change will probably only punish genuine drivers IMO at the moment, don't know scope on PC to do hacked times as there appears no one has managed to yet but thought consoles will be more safe regarding modifications.


Didn't Ti-tech85 do a 1:17.296, haven't checked his ghost but he is a super fast clean driver. Anyway on that event I have 0 points now, seemed really slow to you guys in the last sector though. I wonder if something in setup as I had really poor low speed grip where the car would spin just by turning into the corner. Funny thing is my first two sectors are faster than time number 1 on PC, if I cutted like them, I could have got potentially 50 points. If rules stated were enforced, I would have got potentially 40 points.

Yes i know Ti-Tech85 from AC and he is really fast, but wouldnt say Barcelona lap was all that clean. Offcourse the last sectors were slow as compare to "top" guys who took cutting to new level. Not only straightlining the last chicane, but also the entry to it. So basicly straightlined whole last corner like there wouldt be corner at all.

TrevorAustin
28-06-2015, 10:03
Could all WMD members please answer me this.

Whilst playing the builds of Project Cars was the track penalty system working? I ask because, as I have mentioned many times before, I cannot understand why these tracks which have potential to be corner cut, were not discovered whilst playing the various builds.

I posted a youtube video of my Sonoma laptime and recieved alot of flak for it. However by doing so, SMS could view this video and see where the track cutting potential is.

My point is when WMD members were playing the various builds of Project Cars they should of been trying to corner cut every corner on every track to properly test the track penalty system. The failure of doing so has resulted in these problems because the info was not passed onto SMS. Ironically it seems to me that the majority who are moaning are actually WMD members.

Very soon I shall be posting a video of my lap around Dubai. Im not doing this because I want to highlight my laptime but because I wish to expose the faults on the track and where you can cut. Those who played the various builds should of done this themselves rather than complaning about those who are currently corner cutting!!

They've already answered that, so I'll repeat it.

They used an honor system, called sportsmanship, so it wasn't an issue.everybody knows the limits so they stuck to them or invalidated their own times.

Joni Varis
28-06-2015, 10:04
Could all WMD members please answer me this.

Whilst playing the builds of Project Cars was the track penalty system working? I ask because, as I have mentioned many times before, I cannot understand why these tracks which have potential to be corner cut, were not discovered whilst playing the various builds.

I posted a youtube video of my Sonoma laptime and recieved alot of flak for it. However by doing so, SMS could view this video and see where the track cutting potential is.

My point is when WMD members were playing the various builds of Project Cars they should of been trying to corner cut every corner on every track to properly test the track penalty system. The failure of doing so has resulted in these problems because the info was not passed onto SMS. Ironically it seems to me that the majority who are moaning are actually WMD members.

Very soon I shall be posting a video of my lap around Dubai. Im not doing this because I want to highlight my laptime but because I wish to expose the faults on the track and where you can cut. Those who played the various builds should of done this themselves rather than complaning about those who are currently corner cutting!!

Well im not going to details, but it for sure was working better than now at some point. And yes we did discover majority of these cuts at development. But i have no answer where & when it went all wrong, that one you need to ask from devs.

saidur9
28-06-2015, 10:10
Ye i know Ti-Tech85 from AC and he is really fast, but i would say hes Barcelona lap was all that clean. Offcourse last sectors were slow as compare to "top" guys who took cutting to new level, not only straightlining the last chicane, but also the entry to it. So basicly straightlining whole last corner like there wouldt be corner at all.
He is probably most known for Gran Turismo. I am just comparing myself to your last sector where I lost over a second although similar pace in first and second sector.

Anyway found this funny to read:

"Pro gamers are the aspirational players we all look up to and therefore as public figures they should be both proud and eager to showcase their skills for all to see. By providing their ghost data for others to view it also encourages healthy competition as 'tricks of the trade' can be learned more players to reach faster times and higher Championship Standings positions."

So actively encouraging people to learn tricks for example how best to fly over speed bumps and best lines to cut the track is something to be proud of and to look up too. I personally won't be and there is bound to be ghost data available for at least some fast people anyway so don't see it being a valid reason to delete such entries especially if no fault by player in a failed upload. So far it seems very harsh to delete future entries which are likely to be valid times due to no ghost data.

Joni Varis
28-06-2015, 10:24
I dont know how ghosts works on XO/PS4, but i havent had single lap on TT that lacks ghost since i remember. When there is several guys from same "team" that dont have ghost data, it really starts to be quite suspicious.

saidur9
28-06-2015, 10:30
I dont know how it works on XO/PS4, but i havent had single lap on TT that lacks ghost since i remember. So when there is several guys from same "team" that dont have ghost data, it really starts to be quite suspicious.
Maybe a problem with platform network issue and given it is on consoles, it is likely much more secure and no possbility of hacking at the moment. Also the times they did are highly possible to do, all heavy cutting times have stood so far so nothing to punish IMO if they are to be consistent and fair to the track cutters. Don't see reason to punish whether intentional or not to stop ghost data being uploaded as these "tricks" are rewarded with points on every occasion so far.

FA RACING 01
28-06-2015, 11:37
Maybe a problem with platform network issue and given it is on consoles, it is likely much more secure and no possbility of hacking at the moment. Also the times they did are highly possible to do, all heavy cutting times have stood so far so nothing to punish IMO if they are to be consistent and fair to the track cutters. Don't see reason to punish whether intentional or not to stop ghost data being uploaded as these "tricks" are rewarded with points on every occasion so far.

You are joking. Right ?

I've said enough on this matter, save to say that I now put all my trust in SMS to check the ghosts as was very recently stated by them to ensure nobody benefits from the ridicilously cheating.

PM Looking forward to that Dubai video. Saw the ghost and it promises to be the best one ever.

saidur9
28-06-2015, 11:58
You are joking. Right ?

I've said enough on this matter, save to say that I now put all my trust in SMS to check the ghosts as was very recently stated by them to ensure nobody benefits from the ridicilously cheating.

PM Looking forward to that Dubai video. Saw the ghost and it promises to be the best one ever.
Not joking.

The checks they do permiss things like in Dubai event, can't think of any event where they haven't allowed such driving to stand. They don't consider it cheating even if against their rules, they allow it. People who follow the rules like myself and many others will be only ones punished.

FA RACING 01
28-06-2015, 12:01
Not joking.

The checks they do permiss things like in Dubai event, can't think of any event where they haven't allowed such driving to stand. They don't consider it cheating even if against their rules, they allow it. People who follow the rules like myself and many others will be only ones punished.

All I have left is faith.

GT-Club_Atho_
28-06-2015, 12:01
You are kidding right? Well show me then someone who does below 1.17.3 without straightlining the last chicanes at barcelona. Obviously cant see the sector times of xbox/PS4, but on pc who cutted the chicanes gained 1s+on last sector, and they werent more than 5 tenths or so faster than my time ( which was 17.3 done without cuts ). About Brands hatch & oulton, its mentioned allready several times that many of the fast guys didnt even take part to those, so using those as overall benchmarks is rather useless.

And who are they, all those guys that would go as fast as Ti-Tech, the BAM or SDL? There might be 5-6 actually ... 90% of others who complain and criticize would be far behind.

Barcelona all around is clean except the last chicane, yes, Ti-Tech made 17.2 without cutting. Regarding my time my intermiediate were 19.9 and 29.0 ( not sure ) I don't know what time it made but certainly not far from yours.

saidur9
28-06-2015, 12:07
All I have left is faith.
Only faith to have is in SMS coders might have fixed track cutting detection massively in next patch as the review process means any cutting is fine as long as the system allows it even if their rules say otherwise.

FA RACING 01
28-06-2015, 12:23
Only faith to have is in SMS coders might have fixed track cutting detection massively in next patch as the review process means any cutting is fine as long as the system allows it even if their rules say otherwise.

I understood the purpose of reviews differently, but suppose you guys are better informed then. Just does'nt make sense to have rules, but condone those who fouls them. I'll keep my faith in SMS to ensure no one benefits from not following their rules.

NemethR
28-06-2015, 13:06
Note from the 2.0Patch log

* Track cutting tolerances reduced on all tracks where it was too forgiving.


I only fear, that the rules will NOT be strict enough. (again)

Umer Ahmad
28-06-2015, 13:11
Then they will make it more strict again.

arveena
28-06-2015, 14:04
And who are they, all those guys that would go as fast as Ti-Tech, the BAM or SDL? There might be 5-6 actually ... 90% of others who complain and criticize would be far behind.

Barcelona all around is clean except the last chicane, yes, Ti-Tech made 17.2 without cutting. Regarding my time my intermiediate were 19.9 and 29.0 ( not sure ) I don't know what time it made but certainly not far from yours.


So first of all this is not a flamewar about who is how fast just give some facts:


The BAM and the SDL guys did not have the fastest sectors in sectors where they dont cut.
This means they made up positions by cutting and exploiting. I does not matter how many places they gained
This means the pointtable is useless even if it was just one place in one TT.
In the last TT there was noone of the SDL and BAM guys near the top Times besides Anto and he went wide in at least one of his 47.1 meaning he tried cutting again.
The other guys were more than 1sek behind.
As I stated for the fast players it should be even more important to not cut and it should be punished harder as they are the people the community looks up to.
Even if you would be the fastest out there (which you are clearly not) the casual have every right in the world to complain and you should be even more ashamed because you are already that fast.


You also cant know how many people are at the same pace as you as 90% of them are not interessted in this championship because of your cutting. I can tell you I know a lot more than 5-6 people who have my speed and I can compete with you guys. I mean cut the hell out of the leaderboards I dont care but keep it clean in championships and out of Esports even if it is possible

saidur9
28-06-2015, 15:47
What I find funny is they mention Pro Gamers as aspirational players and should make ghost data available so others can learn their tricks. Surely it is a good thing they didn't let these tricks be known whether intentional or not as it is having no regard for track limits. Things that will get you a black flag and disqualification in real life is kind of driving being encouraged in these posts on the front page. Nothing about track limits and how they will be forced by watching your ghosts. The kind of verification they have done would only take me a few seconds to figure out for all three platforms, what a waste of time watching ghost data back if nothing is going to be done about the cutting.

GT-Club_Atho_
28-06-2015, 17:47
So first of all this is not a flamewar about who is how fast just give some facts:


The BAM and the SDL guys did not have the fastest sectors in sectors where they dont cut.
This means they made up positions by cutting and exploiting. I does not matter how many places they gained
This means the pointtable is useless even if it was just one place in one TT.
In the last TT there was noone of the SDL and BAM guys near the top Times besides Anto and he went wide in at least one of his 47.1 meaning he tried cutting again.
The other guys were more than 1sek behind.
As I stated for the fast players it should be even more important to not cut and it should be punished harder as they are the people the community looks up to.
Even if you would be the fastest out there (which you are clearly not) the casual have every right in the world to complain and you should be even more ashamed because you are already that fast.


You also cant know how many people are at the same pace as you as 90% of them are not interessted in this championship because of your cutting. I can tell you I know a lot more than 5-6 people who have my speed and I can compete with you guys. I mean cut the hell out of the leaderboards I dont care but keep it clean in championships and out of Esports even if it is possible


On what rounds you allows you to get these affirmations ? If it's only on Road America you made the mistake of comparing a community event that this team does not care and the SMS R Championship. People like BAM SDL and others prepare the rounds 1 week before working the setup etc..but have little ambition on community events. What i see on the 2 clean rounds is that they were on the top so when you say they made up positions by cutting and exploiting it's wrong :)

I also know a couple of guys better than me on Gran Turismo which could be in front of me on Project Cars but I know very well the level of Ti Tech ( who is on the top 3 of simracing players ) and I know that there is no gap of 20 places between him and I. :yes:

We're just waiting to compete with you and Joni, you looks fast too ;)

arveena
28-06-2015, 19:15
On what rounds you allows you to get these affirmations ? If it's only on Road America you made the mistake of comparing a community event that this team does not care and the SMS R Championship. People like BAM SDL and others prepare the rounds 1 week before working the setup etc..but have little ambition on community events. What i see on the 2 clean rounds is that they were on the top so when you say they made up positions by cutting and exploiting it's wrong :)

I also know a couple of guys better than me on Gran Turismo which could be in front of me on Project Cars but I know very well the level of Ti Tech ( who is on the top 3 of simracing players ) and I know that there is no gap of 20 places between him and I. :yes:

We're just waiting to compete with you and Joni, you looks fast too ;)

Are you telling me they are more interested in a joke championship were they can fight on their own (I would like to see the numbers of participants of a default formula A round and this one even if it was a DLC). Than on one were you can win price(s) which are atleast 300€. Can not believe that also you won 2 clean rounds were no one competed but you cutting guys. I will stop with this now as this misses the topic of the Thread which is not who is the fastest but how to make this game somewhat interesting as an Esport and what the line between cutting and cheating is.

For my opinion the ghost thingy was one step over the line and needs to punished as well as everyone who cut the Track AFTER the anouncment on twitter which stated that cutting will not be tolerated. Still dont heard any reasonible explanation from anyone of you why you still did cutting afterwards. Was it like when we all do it SMS wont delete us all? I really would like to know that. Because I as a competetive guy can understand the reasons for the cuts in the first place but after an offical statement which said it won't be tolerated doing it again is just for me an unexceptable behaviour for a "Pro" and should be handled as promised in that twitter post. Meaning not beeing tolerated.

That you can not give away prices for this championship should be in everyone interest because it is just a joke noone knows who was actually was the fastest guy because there was major cutting involved on most of the rounds and no one wanted to compete with you. I repeat myself it will hurt the community if this championship is not getting won on a fair way. I dont want to say you can not win it fair. You will beat me for sure as I have not enough time (traveling a lot at work meaning I will miss a few rounds etc).

Also I do not understand these organisations at all as I mentioned I am somewhat involved in Esport. If I would see that as a TM I would instantly hire something new as it damages the label more than these cut wins count for the organisation. But I guess they are their own TM maybe someone should link this thread to the guys in charge of the organisations and let them answer for their players behaviour.

GT-Club_Atho_
28-06-2015, 21:10
Are you telling me they are more interested in a joke championship were they can fight on their own (I would like to see the numbers of participants of a default formula A round and this one even if it was a DLC). Than on one were you can win price(s) which are atleast 300. Can not believe that also you won 2 clean rounds were no one competed but you cutting guys. I will stop with this now as this misses the topic of the Thread which is not who is the fastest but how to make this game somewhat interesting as an Esport and what the line between cutting and cheating is.

For my opinion the ghost thingy was one step over the line and needs to punished as well as everyone who cut the Track AFTER the anouncment on twitter which stated that cutting will not be tolerated. Still dont heard any reasonible explanation from anyone of you why you still did cutting afterwards. Was it like when we all do it SMS wont delete us all? I really would like to know that. Because I as a competetive guy can understand the reasons for the cuts in the first place but after an offical statement which said it won't be tolerated doing it again is just for me an unexceptable behaviour for a "Pro" and should be handled as promised in that twitter post. Meaning not beeing tolerated.

That you can not give away prices for this championship should be in everyone interest because it is just a joke noone knows who was actually was the fastest guy because there was major cutting involved on most of the rounds and no one wanted to compete with you. I repeat myself it will hurt the community if this championship is not getting won on a fair way. I dont want to say you can not win it fair. You will beat me for sure as I have not enough time (traveling a lot at work meaning I will miss a few rounds etc).

Also I do not understand these organisations at all as I mentioned I am somewhat involved in Esport. If I would see that as a TM I would instantly hire something new as it damages the label more than these cut wins count for the organisation. But I guess they are their own TM maybe someone should link this thread to the guys in charge of the organisations and let them answer for their players behaviour.


Teams fight for reputation not for a pretend prize that you'll not receive ^^

I don't cut on Silverstone and Monaco after the tweet because i think it will be cleared but nothing was made and i've lost lot of points...

We want the same thing clean competition so come on SMS wake up !!

arveena
28-06-2015, 21:25
Teams fight for reputation not for a pretend prize that you'll not receive ^^

I don't cut on Silverstone and Monaco after the tweet because i think it will be cleared but nothing was made and i've lost lot of points...

We want the same thing clean competition so come on SMS wake up !!

Sorry but that reputation thing i find quite funny. What reputation? Competetion for the worst reputation by doing the most cuts possible? For me the reputation of this "Pro" Players is already destroyed even if they would win any competetion in a fair manner just because what they did after the statement etc.

If you wanted to go for good reputation you would have stopped doing it and not let a "Noname" like me bring all this points up. You could have done a similar thread if you really wanted a fair competetion months ago.
Also intentionally hiding your ghosts does not show any confidence from you. So you know your reputation is already gone. That is the main part of this thread. It hurts not only your reputation but also the reputation of the game so please dont tell you are fighting for reputation.

GT-Club_Atho_
28-06-2015, 21:31
Sorry but that reputation thing i find quite funny. What reputation? Competetion for the worst reputation by doing the most cuts possible? For me the reputation of this "Pro" Players is already destroyed even if they would win any competetion in a fair manner just because what they did after the statement etc.


It's just a team fight both want to be at the top no matter what they have to do the problem is not teams but devs.

arveena
28-06-2015, 21:51
It's just a team fight both want to be at the top no matter what they have to do the problem is not teams but devs.


It's just a team fight both want to be at the top no matter what they have to do the problem is not teams but devs.

I stated this a million times before but please stop making the DeVs responsible for your cutting. While they could have done a better job with the tracklimits (they already are working on it which is great). They are not responsible for your cutting. You all know the rules a lot of you guys drove kart on a national level like me so they know the rules.

In every game or sport it is first of all before anything else in the responsibility of the players to play the game in the way it is meant to be played not of the one who created the game or are in charge of it. If two football teams decided to play the game with their hands and ignore all rules and referees would that be the problem of the FIFA? just because they can do it if they want to?
There are millions of examples where guys found way less clear sorts of exploits in video games than you guys did and they did not get away with it.
Yeah there is no rulebook here still everyone knows how its done especially the fast guys.

It is time for you to show the Dev's and the community some respect and not be selfish but I am done now because this goes way to far I will stick to everything said in the first post and wait for the patch and response of the Dev's investigation after that I will tell my opinion again. For now I am done and as you can clearly see by the support of the first post I am not alone with it while you guys seem to be very lonely on your arguments.

TrevorAustin
28-06-2015, 22:35
I stated this a million times before but please stop making the DeVs responsible for your cutting. While they could have done a better job with the tracklimits (they already are working on it which is great). They are not responsible for your cutting. You all know the rules a lot of you guys drove kart on a national level like me so they know the rules.

In every game or sport it is first of all before anything else in the responsibility of the players to play the game in the way it is meant to be played not of the one who created the game or are in charge of it. If two football teams decided to play the game with their hands and ignore all rules and referees would that be the problem of the FIFA? just because they can do it if they want to?
There are millions of examples where guys found way less clear sorts of exploits in video games than you guys did and they did not get away with it.
Yeah there is no rulebook here still everyone knows how its done especially the fast guys.

It is time for you to show the Dev's and the community some respect and not be selfish but I am done now because this goes way to far I will stick to everything said in the first post and wait for the patch and response of the Dev's investigation after that I will tell my opinion again. For now I am done and as you can clearly see by the support of the first post I am not alone with it while you guys seem to be very lonely on your arguments.

You can't convince a cheat, ask lance Armstrong, ben johnson, and the many other cheats. A cheat is only upset when caught or challenged, they don't understand sport or competition, just glory, which only they can see as everybody else just sees cheats.

Andy Tudor
29-06-2015, 16:14
Over the weekend a number of items came to our attention regarding SDL Motorsport's involvement with the SMS-R Driver Network Championship including video footage, screengrabs from team conversations, and direct communication with team members and other participants within the competition.

Although some evidence brought forward was inconclusive, SDL Motorsport have now admitted via public statement on their official Facebook page that some members of SDL Motorsport had their lap times performed by a single member of their team.

This admission, together with the above items and discussion, mean we must take action...


Any points earned during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will be removed
Any times set during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will not be counted
It is our firm belief that if you play as a team, you must ensure fair play and good sportsmanship within your ranks. Whilst we cannot enforce this, we would hope that pro gamers would naturally aspire and gravitate towards this ethos.

What we can enforce though is the regulation that if a single team member bends or breaks the rules, the entire team will be penalised for it. We do not mean this to be a draconian rule, but equally we do hope this makes it clear that we will not tolerate cheating or any behaviour that brings the championship structure into disrepute.

Championship Standings will be updated shortly, as will an update to the front page news story.

Joni Varis
29-06-2015, 16:19
How on earth anyone can ever know if they have done the exact same in previous events? Really disturbing stuff! All the last crumbles of respect is gone towards team of such a cheats.

Should be banned for such things, not just small slap to wrists.

saidur9
29-06-2015, 17:32
Think the championship is already in disrepute given SMS don't enforce rules they state and punish people who follow them (Lost out on a T300RS and also SMS-R championship points personally due to following SMS rules). However good to hear multiple accounts to get punished although not very fairly as I think it will be better to understand which ones are being used like that and remove them from all the rounds.

Slux Jorg3
29-06-2015, 18:30
Is it possible to remove points Slux GTurbo the handle 7
thank you

arveena
29-06-2015, 18:54
Over the weekend a number of items came to our attention regarding SDL Motorsport's involvement with the SMS-R Driver Network Championship including video footage, screengrabs from team conversations, and direct communication with team members and other participants within the competition.

Although some evidence brought forward was inconclusive, SDL Motorsport have now admitted via public statement on their official Facebook page that some members of SDL Motorsport had their lap times performed by a single member of their team.

This admission, together with the above items and discussion, mean we must take action...


Any points earned during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will be removed
Any times set during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will not be counted
It is our firm belief that if you play as a team, you must ensure fair play and good sportsmanship within your ranks. Whilst we cannot enforce this, we would hope that pro gamers would naturally aspire and gravitate towards this ethos.

What we can enforce though is the regulation that if a single team member bends or breaks the rules, the entire team will be penalised for it. We do not mean this to be a draconian rule, but equally we do hope this makes it clear that we will not tolerate cheating or any behaviour that brings the championship structure into disrepute.

Championship Standings will be updated shortly, as will an update to the front page news story.

This is disturbing stuff but for me this only adds more reason to restart the championship because deleting their times for only one round does not mean that they did not done this on the rounds before. Also they are still in the competetion. Even with cutting, corrupting ghosts and this new sort of cheating. They still can compete for the overall win and prices. I mean how much bending and cheating is allowed until you are out of the championship.


Could you please explain why you are not putting the championship to hold until all these issues are fixed and start it again under fair conditions?

Maybe you are having reasons which would make the whole situation more understandable for us?
I guess sponsor contracts could be a Problem etc.
Just speculation but it is hard to understand for us as we are driving fair and lost way more points because of that then those guy loose in the process of doing multiple cuts and cheats. But maybe this changes their behaviour at least even though they have still massive advantages achieved through cheating and cutting.

GT-Club_Atho_
29-06-2015, 19:25
Over the weekend a number of items came to our attention regarding SDL Motorsport's involvement with the SMS-R Driver Network Championship including video footage, screengrabs from team conversations, and direct communication with team members and other participants within the competition.

Although some evidence brought forward was inconclusive, SDL Motorsport have now admitted via public statement on their official Facebook page that some members of SDL Motorsport had their lap times performed by a single member of their team.

This admission, together with the above items and discussion, mean we must take action...


Any points earned during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will be removed
Any times set during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will not be counted
It is our firm belief that if you play as a team, you must ensure fair play and good sportsmanship within your ranks. Whilst we cannot enforce this, we would hope that pro gamers would naturally aspire and gravitate towards this ethos.

What we can enforce though is the regulation that if a single team member bends or breaks the rules, the entire team will be penalised for it. We do not mean this to be a draconian rule, but equally we do hope this makes it clear that we will not tolerate cheating or any behaviour that brings the championship structure into disrepute.

Championship Standings will be updated shortly, as will an update to the front page news story.

Sonik said it was on Monaco. Don't understand why you removed points for round 7...

The SDL on PS4 did nothing and they paid for the Xbox team... Really frustrated !!

Yinato
29-06-2015, 20:12
Hello everyone,

I hope that my message will be read by as many of you.
I am the SDL-Yinato player present on PS4 and am truly disappointed and saddened by the behavior of some members of the team which I am one.

Coming to Gran Turismo and having played two national finals of GT Academy, I think is a fair play and honest player, for proof, you can now find all of my best lap on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/yinatoFR/videos

Of greed and specific to human nature, it can be pushed at times to do certain things. Having absolutely nothing to reproach myself I present still my most sincere apologies.

I would also add that in the interests of fairness, it would be wise to revive the sleeves 3 and 4 of Silverstone and Monaco, sleeves that have been a fiasco where honest players were not rewarded.
For me, the first on PS4 until the last day, I see myself finishing outside the top 20 in less than half a day because I did not use the stands. Punishment is one thing, punishing well is another.

Thank you and my sincere greetings addresses
SDL-Yinato.

arveena
29-06-2015, 20:31
Hello everyone,

I hope that my message will be read by as many of you.
I am the SDL-Yinato player present on PS4 and am truly disappointed and saddened by the behavior of some members of the team which I am one.

Coming to Gran Turismo and having played two national finals of GT Academy, I think is a fair play and honest player, for proof, you can now find all of my best lap on my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/yinatoFR/videos

Of greed and specific to human nature, it can be pushed at times to do certain things. Having absolutely nothing to reproach myself I present still my most sincere apologies.

I would also add that in the interests of fairness, it would be wise to revive the sleeves 3 and 4 of Silverstone and Monaco, sleeves that have been a fiasco where honest players were not rewarded.
For me, the first on PS4 until the last day, I see myself finishing outside the top 20 in less than half a day because I did not use the stands. Punishment is one thing, punishing well is another.

Thank you and my sincere greetings addresses
SDL-Yinato.

Now this is what I call professional behaviour, while I am still disappointed in some of you guys actions. I can truely say that this one is a step in the right direction. An apology is always the right thing to do and also letting us see all your laps is a brave move as this will probably give you a lot of negative reactions on your channel and here. But it is the right thing to do so a real fair competetion can start and the Devs can further investigate the laps. Do you have more than those 3 replays because this are not the only rounds which involved massive cutting.
The cuts are so extreme that there is no other way than rerunning the whole championship in my opinion. Those zolder cuts are needing a own cutting setup I guess?
In my opinion we should restart everything with the new tracklimits and leave this mess behind us. When we are giving us a fair fight from the start it will be a good thing for the game and hopefully other organisations and sponsors will notice that and the competetive scene can grow. This should be in the interessted of every Proplayer and organisation.

Offtopic: are you the same guy that was dissapointed by the rule changes of GTA this year?

Yinato
29-06-2015, 20:42
Hello Arveena,

Thank you for your understanding my message.

I am generally in agreement with you, the championship should be renewed, he came right out of the game and I think it was a bad idea.

Now dns practice, it will be hard to start over, that's why it would be wise to revive the most disastrous innings as Silverstone (stand), Azure track (walls) and Le Mans (stand).

[HS]: I also confirm that I am the same person who was disappointed by the new regulation of GT Academy in 2015.

I wish you a good evening.

Sincerely,
Yinato.

FA RACING 01
29-06-2015, 21:20
Apologies is always a step in the right direction so thumbs up for that. Some of the video do look suspect in terms of racing rules, but IMO to some extent within the broader bounderies of the PCars rules/ethos as no signs of extreme re-designing of the track is visible as we see nowadays.

Hope things clear up fast mate.

bmanic
30-06-2015, 00:36
That chicane cutting in the latest video in the channel is just absurd. Nobody drives like that in real life.. I suspect though that it shouldn't be enforced by track rules but rather by updating the physics and collision damage. In real life those small "sticks" should probably do some serious damage to the car and cutting the chicane that violently at that speed should also upset the car a lot more. So, still a lot to be improved in Project CARS, that's for sure.

EDIT: Link to video
https://youtu.be/-pM35RrpAcc?t=46s

ONT
30-06-2015, 01:51
That is a silly amount of abuse to front end with no impact on car ???

Is damage turn off ?

Joni Varis
30-06-2015, 03:42
I think damage must of been off with such cuttings. I have hit those bollards with damage enabled at online races, and even at really slow speeds was enough to to damage the car so much that topspeed dropped like 15km/h and steering got all messed up.

Toxic
30-06-2015, 05:45
That chicane cutting in the latest video in the channel is just absurd. Nobody drives like that in real life.. I suspect though that it shouldn't be enforced by track rules but rather by updating the physics and collision damage. In real life those small "sticks" should probably do some serious damage to the car and cutting the chicane that violently at that speed should also upset the car a lot more. So, still a lot to be improved in Project CARS, that's for sure.

EDIT: Link to video
https://youtu.be/-pM35RrpAcc?t=46s

So annoying when you see this, especially when I spend hours putting in clean laps, only to find the leader(s) are cutting like this.

Cant play fairly - so no sympathy from me, would not even have joined this forum were it not for being found out.

Video probably explains 2 regional finals and then nothing to follow, failed.

PzR Slim
30-06-2015, 10:01
That chicane cutting in the latest video in the channel is just absurd. Nobody drives like that in real life.. I suspect though that it shouldn't be enforced by track rules but rather by updating the physics and collision damage. In real life those small "sticks" should probably do some serious damage to the car and cutting the chicane that violently at that speed should also upset the car a lot more. So, still a lot to be improved in Project CARS, that's for sure.

EDIT: Link to video
https://youtu.be/-pM35RrpAcc?t=46s
This is why I can never set top leaderboard times. I'm just not prepared to go to such lengths to set a 'quick' time. However, at the end of the day it's upto SMS to make sure the safeguards are in place to invalidate such laps. People will take advantage of the game unless it is water tight.

KapitainKavern
30-06-2015, 13:38
And who are they, all those guys that would go as fast as Ti-Tech, the BAM or SDL? There might be 5-6 actually ... 90% of others who complain and criticize would be far behind.

Barcelona all around is clean except the last chicane, yes, Ti-Tech made 17.2 without cutting. Regarding my time my intermiediate were 19.9 and 29.0 ( not sure ) I don't know what time it made but certainly not far from yours.
It's not the problem to know if the guys complaining are as fast as you.
But the fact is : you are saying you are a pro and a sportman but you are cheating with a complete no respect against sport.
Moreover you are trying to legitimate your acts.
In fact you are totally in the opposite way we are teaching to our children. Try to find the definition of the word RESPECT in a dictionnary and also do a research on google for "Pierre De Coubertin" a well-known frenchman.

PS: I'm not a US man beating a french one. I'm leaving in Belgium and speaking french.

KapitainKavern
30-06-2015, 13:43
It's just a team fight both want to be at the top no matter what they have to do the problem is not teams but devs.

If the cyclist have taken a lot of epo before the controls exist, it's then the fault of the officials ? The cyclist is a victim ????

KapitainKavern
30-06-2015, 13:49
Over the weekend a number of items came to our attention regarding SDL Motorsport's involvement with the SMS-R Driver Network Championship including video footage, screengrabs from team conversations, and direct communication with team members and other participants within the competition.

Although some evidence brought forward was inconclusive, SDL Motorsport have now admitted via public statement on their official Facebook page that some members of SDL Motorsport had their lap times performed by a single member of their team.

This admission, together with the above items and discussion, mean we must take action...


Any points earned during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will be removed
Any times set during Round 7 by members of SDL Motorsport will not be counted
It is our firm belief that if you play as a team, you must ensure fair play and good sportsmanship within your ranks. Whilst we cannot enforce this, we would hope that pro gamers would naturally aspire and gravitate towards this ethos.

What we can enforce though is the regulation that if a single team member bends or breaks the rules, the entire team will be penalised for it. We do not mean this to be a draconian rule, but equally we do hope this makes it clear that we will not tolerate cheating or any behaviour that brings the championship structure into disrepute.

Championship Standings will be updated shortly, as will an update to the front page news story.

Andy, I understand your difficult position. In french we have a saying : "You have the ass between 2 chairs" (I hope it's correctly translated ;-))

But in my opinion, the punishing is to weak. If I'm convinced of cheating then it's normal I'm disqualified. In real life, a lot of guys have lost their previous wins after being convinced of cheating : Armstrong for example.

Thanks

Yinato
30-06-2015, 17:23
Hello KapitainKavern,

I do not think, in the present state of things, it is good to feed any debate but I have to tell you to put things in the right order.

First, I think it would be good to calm down and not to compare what is not in any way comparable.
Remember one thing, here, we are on a VIDEO GAME and as I know, we get no income whatsoever for our performance. You will understand by this that it is ridiculous to compare some methods '' cheat '' and yet it's not quite the case with the case of Lance Armstrong and millions of euros it has to behind, come back dear land.

Second, I do not think it is up to you to judge the notion of respect for my SDL-Atho teammate, you know probalement not much of it and therefore are not able to judge this person, for which your guidance, to win many championships and auto simulation that in the rules of art.

[IMPORTANT]

Third, I'd like you to remember the inning on Silverstone SLS AMG GT3, you will recall that this stage ended with a top 20 that used the pit lane to finish their turn faster, thing SDL-Atho and I SDL-Yinato, have not done while we were yet highly ranked. For this, we complain and were reassured by the fact that the '' cheaters '' would be penalized.

In the end, that was not the case, SDL-Atho and myself have lost many valuable points for our honesty and respect. We can summarize this by saying that honesty does not pay this time.

If we are punished, those present on the sleeves Silverstone and Monaco have used the pit lane must be as well. This is necessary for the credibility of this championship that begins badly.

Understand that I love motor sport more than anyone else and have to use extreme slopes and widths illegal annoys me as much as you.


Do not take my message as an attack but as the views of a man who hopes that things will work out.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

SDL Nikolai
30-06-2015, 18:16
hello,
I have read your post about Sdl at Smsr. I am very surprise that you apply penalty for a full team, it is not a fair decision, only the cheaters, "Sonik, Rotax, Rossi and Evonik" have to be penalised. Lot of us are not concerned. Before the news, i don't know that sonik do the laps for his mates... i am not ok with that and it is why i have decided to leave Sdl, i was a car tuner for this team and it's very a bad news for them. See you later ... maybe.
Nikolai

PS: I have announced the fact that i leave the team on xbox live, so i will have a new gamertag soon by my new team.

arveena
30-06-2015, 18:27
Hello KapitainKavern,

I do not think, in the present state of things, it is good to feed any debate but I have to tell you to put things in the right order.

First, I think it would be good to calm down and not to compare what is not in any way comparable.
Remember one thing, here, we are on a VIDEO GAME and as I know, we get no income whatsoever for our performance. You will understand by this that it is ridiculous to compare some methods '' cheat '' and yet it's not quite the case with the case of Lance Armstrong and millions of euros it has to behind, come back dear land.

Second, I do not think it is up to you to judge the notion of respect for my SDL-Atho teammate, you know probalement not much of it and therefore are not able to judge this person, for which your guidance, to win many championships and auto simulation that in the rules of art.

[IMPORTANT]

Third, I'd like you to remember the inning on Silverstone SLS AMG GT3, you will recall that this stage ended with a top 20 that used the pit lane to finish their turn faster, thing SDL-Atho and I SDL-Yinato, have not done while we were yet highly ranked. For this, we complain and were reassured by the fact that the '' cheaters '' would be penalized.

In the end, that was not the case, SDL-Atho and myself have lost many valuable points for our honesty and respect. We can summarize this by saying that honesty does not pay this time.

If we are punished, those present on the sleeves Silverstone and Monaco have used the pit lane must be as well. This is necessary for the credibility of this championship that begins badly.

Understand that I love motor sport more than anyone else and have to use extreme slopes and widths illegal annoys me as much as you.


Do not take my message as an attack but as the views of a man who hopes that things will work out.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

It is very hard to understand your english for me no offense. I like your efforts here but i have a few questions which were not clear in your posts at least for me. If you would like you just can answer yes or no.


Would you support a restart of the championship after all this cheating involved?

I agree on you that other people should be punished as well. Esp the guys who cheated with the pits. Do you think your lost points will have any effect on the championship?

What is your solution IF you should cut again? A ban?

Do you think there is any option besides restarting this after Tracklimits are fixed to get a fair competetion?



Also how much money is involved does not matter Armstrong got millions but you are still competeting for prices so it is the same thing. The amount does not matter. Also if you compete in ESPORT it is obviously not a game so this argument is not valid. In Esport there are also millions of Dollars involved it is much more than just games in this decade. That is what a lot of people fought for since the first steps Esport did with cs1.6 and Dota.

KapitainKavern
30-06-2015, 19:40
Hello KapitainKavern,

I do not think, in the present state of things, it is good to feed any debate but I have to tell you to put things in the right order.

First, I think it would be good to calm down and not to compare what is not in any way comparable.
Remember one thing, here, we are on a VIDEO GAME and as I know, we get no income whatsoever for our performance. You will understand by this that it is ridiculous to compare some methods '' cheat '' and yet it's not quite the case with the case of Lance Armstrong and millions of euros it has to behind, come back dear land.

Second, I do not think it is up to you to judge the notion of respect for my SDL-Atho teammate, you know probalement not much of it and therefore are not able to judge this person, for which your guidance, to win many championships and auto simulation that in the rules of art.

[IMPORTANT]

Third, I'd like you to remember the inning on Silverstone SLS AMG GT3, you will recall that this stage ended with a top 20 that used the pit lane to finish their turn faster, thing SDL-Atho and I SDL-Yinato, have not done while we were yet highly ranked. For this, we complain and were reassured by the fact that the '' cheaters '' would be penalized.

In the end, that was not the case, SDL-Atho and myself have lost many valuable points for our honesty and respect. We can summarize this by saying that honesty does not pay this time.

If we are punished, those present on the sleeves Silverstone and Monaco have used the pit lane must be as well. This is necessary for the credibility of this championship that begins badly.

Understand that I love motor sport more than anyone else and have to use extreme slopes and widths illegal annoys me as much as you.


Do not take my message as an attack but as the views of a man who hopes that things will work out.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

Anthony,

I don't have time anymore to answer correctly on your message : holidays are coming ;-)

But :
1.I don't take your post as an attack. You give your point of view and I give mine. Then begin the discussion.
2.When I will go back, we can exchange in french with PM if you want. It's my mother language and it is yours : it will be easier ton understand the nuances that we cannot translate into English.

ps: sorry for the english guys but if you want I can post a summarized text when the discussions are finished

D1rty Duck UK
30-06-2015, 20:12
hello,
I have read your post about Sdl at Smsr. I am very surprise that you apply penalty for a full team, it is not a fair decision, only the cheaters, "Sonik, Rotax, Rossi and Evonik" have to be penalised. Lot of us are not concerned. Before the news, i don't know that sonik do the laps for his mates... i am not ok with that and it is why i have decided to leave Sdl, i was a car tuner for this team and it's very a bad news for them. See you later ... maybe.
Nikolai

PS: I have announced the fact that i leave the team on xbox live, so i will have a new gamertag soon by my new team.

Well done for leaving the team, but IMO all associated with that team have to be penalised to send out the right message. Harsh I know but it's ridiculous the amount of cheating going on.

OperatorWay
30-06-2015, 20:36
If teams are allowed to continue competing after the unsportsmanlike behavior of individual members, I think that would send a strong message to all teams that will encourage more cheating as the only way to win. More teams would implement schemes to compete through alternate and/or scapegoat accounts while the team's core/leaders keep their hands clean. If there's no harm to the team in trying to cheat, they'll all just keep taking their chances betting against the thoroughness of the stewards & the likelihood of getting caught.

If entire teams are disqualified for the violations of a few unsportsmanlike members, I think that would send a strong message to all teams that will encourage them to do a better job of self-policing & implementing zero-tolerance policies for members who cheat. Many teams would clean themselves up & raise the standards across the board. When each team member knows (& cares) that their individual actions reflect & affect their entire team, I think they are more likely to conduct themselves better.

Yinato
30-06-2015, 20:42
It is very hard to understand your english for me no offense. I like your efforts here but i have a few questions which were not clear in your posts at least for me. If you would like you just can answer yes or no.


Would you support a restart of the championship after all this cheating involved?

I agree on you that other people should be punished as well. Esp the guys who cheated with the pits. Do you think your lost points will have any effect on the championship?

What is your solution IF you should cut again? A ban?

Do you think there is any option besides restarting this after Tracklimits are fixed to get a fair competetion?



Also how much money is involved does not matter Armstrong got millions but you are still competeting for prices so it is the same thing. The amount does not matter. Also if you compete in ESPORT it is obviously not a game so this argument is not valid. In Esport there are also millions of Dollars involved it is much more than just games in this decade. That is what a lot of people fought for since the first steps Esport did with cs1.6 and Dota.


Hello Arveena,

Forgive my poor English, I use google translate to write you and I know that understanding can be bad.

I will respond in order with the best English possible;

1 - Yes, I will wish to restart the championship or at least a few innings

2 - Yes, I think that the points lost in the heats on Silverstone and Monaco will have a negative effect on my final result for the championship, but the most disturbing, is knowing that players who used the walls and stands have not not sanctioned

3 - Yes, I think the best solution would be to study and MUST ALWAYS replay each of the players present in the top 20

4 - Yes

Thank you and shares your point of view.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

SpeedLimitUnknown
30-06-2015, 21:17
This whole drama with "SDL Motorsport" is ridiculous. If they're going to use these types of 'tactics' just to get at the top of the leaderboard they should all be banned, simple as that. It just ruins it for everyone else who is trying to play fair and do a legitimate lap times. Anyone associated with this SDL Motorsport 'team' should be completely embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.

Kevin Leaune
30-06-2015, 21:24
Hello,

I think that it would be necessary to redo Round 4 on Monaco as well as that from Silverstone to SLS GT3

Is it possible to make Re-Run?

Yinato
30-06-2015, 22:00
This whole drama with "SDL Motorsport" is ridiculous. If they're going to use these types of 'tactics' just to get at the top of the leaderboard they should all be banned, simple as that. It just ruins it for everyone else who is trying to play fair and do a legitimate lap times. Anyone associated with this SDL Motorsport 'team' should be completely embarrassed and ashamed of themselves.


Hello,

Make no mistake, you will soon realize that with or without these cuts, it will be the same players at the top of the rankings.

Appointments made this weekend on Silverstone.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

OperatorWay
30-06-2015, 22:11
...Make no mistake, you will soon realize that with or without these cuts, it will be the same players at the top of the rankings...
It would be unfortunate if cheaters are allowed to continue participating - especially after getting caught.

Cheaters should be disqualified & banned from the competition.

Cheaters had their chance to compete fairly, and they knowingly & willingly chose not to. They shouldn't get a second chance.

FA RACING 01
30-06-2015, 22:16
@ Yinato. We all know that. But what you saying is the less "fortunate" racers doesnt count ? Just because you will still be on top the lower rated guys should just keep quiet. ? You are shameless. I'll miss the Silverstone event just for that.

arveena
30-06-2015, 22:40
Hello,

I think that it would be necessary to redo Round 4 on Monaco as well as that from Silverstone to SLS GT3

Is it possible to make Re-Run?

What about zolder also the rerun of Barcelona etc. You can just rerun all as everywhere was cutting involved besides one round which was brands hatch. Even the oulton park was stupid with the damage off and running over the big sausage kerbs and just straighten chicanes.

Also @yinato you should know that there will be a lot more people on top if this is fixed you played enough GT Academy finals to know that the current state of no competetion for you guys is just because of your cheating. There will be a lot of other names on top if this gets restarted.

To that guy you is complaining about beeing punished for SDL members. Are you saying me you did not cut? If no good luck with your new team but i never saw a clean SDL or BAM time on tracks where they could cut so maybe you are the exception. If not you deserved it and in my eyes even more

SpeedLimitUnknown
01-07-2015, 01:26
Hello,

Make no mistake, you will soon realize that with or without these cuts, it will be the same players at the top of the rankings.

Appointments made this weekend on Silverstone.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

Right, says the dude who is part of this tainted "SDL Motorsport" team. Have you been banned yet?

"...SDL Motorsport is now joined by teammates Atho and Yinato who have continually placed in the points during the course of the season..."

SpeedLimitUnknown
01-07-2015, 01:28
@ Yinato. We all know that. But what you saying is the less "fortunate" racers doesnt count ? Just because you will still be on top the lower rated guys should just keep quiet. ? You are shameless. I'll miss the Silverstone event just for that.

Well he is a member of SDL Motorsport and "shameless" is putting it lightly.

o2R Dsquared 07
01-07-2015, 02:42
Hello,

Make no mistake, you will soon realize that with or without these cuts, it will be the same players at the top of the rankings.

Appointments made this weekend on Silverstone.

Sincerely,
Anthony.

Yinato,

With regards to the track cutting, you have nothing to apologise for and no reason to feel bad. You are competing on level terms with the best players in the game. Those teammates that didn't run their own times, however, should absolutely be banned.

arveena
01-07-2015, 02:50
Yinato,

With regards to the track cutting, you have nothing to apologise for and no reason to feel bad. You are competing on level terms with the best players in the game. Those teammates that didn't run their own times, however, should absolutely be banned.

Sure getting places and points because of cutting is a lot better than through trading accounts. It is both getting points through unfair methods. I do not get why he should not apologise for that he did it and it was a good thing to do. I know him a long time from GT and I know for example I am at his level as well as a lot of other people not appearing on this pointtable for various reasons. He got more point from his cutting than those guys from Acc sharing and he took also more points away from more people than he lost to the pitstop cheaters that is for sure.

It is all the same no matter what you did. Cutting exploiting or Trading it is all cheating and taking points away from honest racers and putting the whole competetive scene in a bad light

It is a joke that they are complaining about the other guys who cut through the pits. Sure the took points away from them but they inspired them for sure and also again they did the cuts in 7 rounds +2 re runs so they took away more points for sure from other guys than those silverstone guys did from them

danpinho
01-07-2015, 03:25
If the statement is a Slap in the Face of every clean racer, what to say about the latest patch (2.0)?

arveena
01-07-2015, 03:38
If the statement is a Slap in the Face of every clean racer, what to say about the latest patch (2.0)?

I will reply in all honesty. I am dissapointed with the "fixes" of the tracklimits but I also do not want to flame the Dev's here. The Patch itself was fine (many good and needed changes) no idea about the AI will also do some comparison about that but keep in mind this game is still the best simulation of racing I have ever played. ESP on the side of physics and this comes from someone with racing experience. It is not an iceskating simulator like rfactor 2 and no arcade racer like GT it is actually very well done. :yes:
So while beeing disappointed in those one particular Patchnote I am still pretty satisfied. On the other side if there was a single hope of the Driver Championship not beeing a farce without restarting it is now gone. It needs to be put on hold and restarted as the next two rounds will be cutfests again and the acceptance in doing these cuts grows from event to event in the community. Even if they decide to delete all cutted times is it a good sign if place 23 for example wins it? I don't think so. They need to do something now or before the next event starts. I do not think more than a handful people would be mad if they stop it and then take their time fixing it. If it would take a few months I would be fine with that. I am willing to wait a few months for a fair and clean competetion between the "big" names of the sim racing scene.

It is just not on top of their Prio list which is fine but please end this farce of a championship as it only attracts cheaters cutter and people with immature behaviour.

danpinho
01-07-2015, 04:01
I see your point. I'm a bit disapointed myself. If you have a clean racer mindset your are in clear disadvantage right now.
IMO keep your car inside the white lines is a pretty simple straight forward concept.
DEVs really did a great work but track limits is not one of them. I totally agree with you about the championship, they should put it on hold and erase all LB.

fiesling
01-07-2015, 05:49
put on hold would mean nobody would play the game until they fix it :D bad idea i guess

imho the devs wanna just sit it out .. i bet the track cutting is so heavily fucked that they have to recode it from zero so we can only waaaaaaaaaait ......

i mean some of you really think they dont know it??

lol....

FA RACING 01
01-07-2015, 09:24
I will reply in all honesty. I am dissapointed with the "fixes" of the tracklimits but I also do not want to flame the Dev's here. The Patch itself was fine (many good and needed changes) no idea about the AI will also do some comparison about that but keep in mind this game is still the best simulation of racing I have ever played. ESP on the side of physics and this comes from someone with racing experience. It is not an iceskating simulator like rfactor 2 and no arcade racer like GT it is actually very well done. :yes:
So while beeing disappointed in those one particular Patchnote I am still pretty satisfied. On the other side if there was a single hope of the Driver Championship not beeing a farce without restarting it is now gone. It needs to be put on hold and restarted as the next two rounds will be cutfests again and the acceptance in doing these cuts grows from event to event in the community. Even if they decide to delete all cutted times is it a good sign if place 23 for example wins it? I don't think so. They need to do something now or before the next event starts. I do not think more than a handful people would be mad if they stop it and then take their time fixing it. If it would take a few months I would be fine with that. I am willing to wait a few months for a fair and clean competetion between the "big" names of the sim racing scene.

It is just not on top of their Prio list which is fine but please end this farce of a championship as it only attracts cheaters cutter and people with immature behaviour.

Looking at your videos, my last hope for a fair Community competition has gone. More time is passing now, so less and less time to rectify it. Not sure if it will be worth it, but I agree with your submission to clear the LB's, set proper track limits and restart the championship. I for one will not take part in it anymore until it's been solved.

PM. Do you or anyone perhaps know what the next two tracks in the competition looks like after patch 2 - Silverstone and Nurburgring GP ? Thanks.

arveena
01-07-2015, 11:39
put on hold would mean nobody would play the game until they fix it :D bad idea i guess

imho the devs wanna just sit it out .. i bet the track cutting is so heavily fucked that they have to recode it from zero so we can only waaaaaaaaaait ......

i mean some of you really think they dont know it??

lol....

Why would no one play the game anymore. Actually atm nobody is playing this events anyway and on the leaderboards racing a ghost that is not yours is also depressing as hell. This is getting a huge problem if you do not believe me try making an online race in Dubai. A few weeks ago this was no Problem now you have 50% of the lobby cutting the hell out of the track. There needs to be some sort of sign or all sorts of clean racing will be gone and we will be playing need for speed in open lobbys and Time Trials. They dont need to call everything off they can just run the round but delete all points and don't give any points at all until it is fixed and then start all over again with points.