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Itothans
29-06-2015, 07:29
I've been a fan of NFS Shift games in the past, so when I found out about Project Cars early in it's development I was very excited and couldn't wait for its release. Now that it's out I've been playing the game for a couple of hours pretty much every day.

Please note that I am only focusing on car handling here. To me the game feels great, I am no professional racer or anything like that, but the game feels very realistic just in terms of basic car handling and feedback.

What puzzles me is that I have read a lot of bad reviews about Project Cars, people comparing it to other "real sims" and calling it an arcade or simcade game, I was always under the impression that pCars is supposed to be a sim.

So I decided to get other games people compare it to which include Assetto Corsa, rFactor, Stock Car Extreme, Race room experience and of course the most praised one, iRacing.

Out of all those games only Assetto Corsa and rFactor come close but unpredictability and the buggy interface/crappy graphics don't make them worth it for me.

iRacing to me felt like there was no feedback what so ever, I played around with the wheel settings, used other people's suggestions but I felt no excitement driving a car fast around a track. I think people who are praising it are just trying to justify to themselves why they are paying so much for a game.

Other games just aren't as good, they have good elements but the whole package isn't there.

I realise these are my subjective views but I wanted to know what other people think of the game and how they compare it to the rest?

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 07:37
PCARS is a full SIM, but it can be adjusted to everybody's abilities by using driving assists and various other options (race line for example). That essentially makes it a game for everyone, which was always the target during development.

There will always be haters yelling "It's simcade!" or "This is just Shift 3!" but the fact that this kind of discussion was pretty much non existent after release speaks for itself IMO.

Whisky
29-06-2015, 07:39
Need for Speed shift was my favourite racing game for a Long time in the past.
assetto Corsa is a really great game and i played it alot until....

Project Cars

what should i say? in my opinion Project cars is where it's at.
if you fiddle out some nice ffb Settings for your wheel the experience is just top notch.
i'm driving on the nordschleife with my Z4 ///M since about 4 years every few months and i have to say the Informations im getting from my wheel in Project cars are very Close compared to what i feel in real life.

Project cars has it bugs yea, but Overall it's the best sim i ever played and the devs will still care about us and work hard to fix bugs and release more tracks/cars in the future.
you want a recommendation? GET PROJECT CARS ASAP :)

ONT
29-06-2015, 07:44
There is good and bad in all of the sims, You could find lots of things unfinished in pCARS at this stage.

The important thing is there is progress here, give pCARS a few patches and lets see how it stacks up :)


iRacings strongest assets is track accuracy and the best multiplayer bar non, the SR system has a lot to do with the quality of racing there.

Hopefully there will be something similar or better to promote clean MP racing in pCARS at some point.


I argued a licence system like iRacing for pCARS MP in parallel to an open MP,

that would give drivers interested in clean racing a MP career through the same racing license system used in RL.

OperatorWay
29-06-2015, 07:55
My observation is that the less money, hardware, & commitment required to enjoy playing a driving game, the less the elitists consider it a "sim."

Since Project CARS can be recreationally & competitively played by people who do not have elaborate & expensive triple-screen wheel-&-pedal setups, then it's not really a "sim" in the eyes of some people.

Too many people use labels to form divisive cliques. They can call it "sim" or "simcade" or "arcade" or "lamb chop" for all I care. On a scale from "Mario Kart" to "breathing in tire smoke through a helmet & balaclava," Project CARS falls somewhere nicely in between.

Brent G
29-06-2015, 07:55
Never had a go on the PC sim racers but from my experience as a driver the handling physics pretty close in the way the cars act under hard driving conditions. For me pCars even with it's flawes is a fantastic representation of fast hard driving. I love it!

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 07:57
Sorry, I forgot to quote the Wookie on this:


I've been told by 2 big names I can't mention that we feel more accurate and detailed than their pro in-house simulators. We also do weather better and more dynamically as well as us having better graphics.

FA RACING 01
29-06-2015, 08:08
Firstly I don't think the bad reviews I saw focussed so much on how realistic the game is, but much more on bugs, frame rate issues etc. which are found in all the racing games I played. I won't comment on the latter as firstly I honestly think they're just temporary in nature and secondly they certainly have nothing to do with how realistic PCars is.

Secondly I think the two racing games I played [all the Forza's and Gran Turismo 2-6] were both great and has attributes I really liked [some for their graphics, some for custom painting etc.] But as far as "how real" these games are, PCars is as close as it can get for me. Yes both the other two games had some form of realism, but to me the cars handled, not the same, but kinda within certain parametres very much alike. Don't shoot me on this, cause it's only how I experienced it. PCars on the other hand has about totally different handling characteristics for each car and I'm still amazed on how precise some of those characteristics compare to the real car. Same apply for things like TC and SC which I experienced rather differently in the other two games I mentioned. I'm from the old school and prefer the finer detail of car handling much more than just beating the creeps out of a car around the track, perhaps then why I also find the handling characteristics much more real then the other two games I mentioned.

In fear of my post getting to long, my short answer based on my experience between PCars and the other two I mentioned is that PCars is by far more of a SIM than the other two, handling wise and tuning wise. I will play the other two for various reasons, but when I want to have a racing [not driving] experience, it will be only pcARS for me.

bodyshop
29-06-2015, 08:10
Stop worring about what others think and go with your own reactions and feelings, why do some people need this acceptance from others? If your playing it and you enjoy it and feel it gives you a great experience then just get down and play it.
Ignore all those man childs with expensive PC's and rigs banging on about iRacing etc etc, so what if they call PCars a simade? They are living at home with Mommy and step daddy still and pretending they are racing drivers in their parents basement...

Be confident in yourself and like something cause you like it and not because someone tells you you can....

TheReaper GT
29-06-2015, 08:12
Don't forget the sound, good God the sound of that game is amazing. When you listen to the SLS GT3 gearing down or the Capri's turbo announcing that warp speed is close, you feel so inside the experience.

Edit: the Bentley GT3 Bi-Turbo V8 got me all funny in the gentleman parts auhahua

Itothans
29-06-2015, 08:14
.....you want a recommendation? GET PROJECT CARS ASAP :)

I do have it, and I love it! :)

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 08:26
Politically correct answer: pCARS is a simulation intended to simulate as accurately as possible the dynamics of motorsport. A huge part of it is the detailed tyre model that deals with things like heat transport through contact layer, bulk rubber, air and brake discs, contact patch deformation, tyre wear and flatspotting. There are also suspsension dynamics, aerodynamics, weather influences and other racing-related things that are taken into account to make it a complete simulation package of what car racing involves.

Like any simulation, it's not reality but a (good) approximation of reality within its limits and boundary conditions. We've been told that we're doing a great job already by various real-life race drivers, though, and improvements and additions are still coming.

Revvin
29-06-2015, 08:29
Project Cars and Slightly Mad Studio's suffer from the legacy of Need For Speed Shift. People remember the handling and physics that game had and assume its the same with PCars and that somehow SMS are not able to make a game with realistic handling and physics and that of course is rubbish. I've bought just about every racing game released on the PC and spent a lot of time in iRacing but was surprised how disappointed I was with a quick session I had in the MX-5 last night.

I've recently bought a new steering wheel and shifter unit so I have been setting them up and trying them out in a couple of sims I have installed, PCars, iRacing, RacRoom Racing Experience, rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa. PCars, R3E, rF2 and AC all felt really good right away, the feedback was good, the shifter felt natural and the sound really immersive and then I went back to iRacing which I have to admit I've not run for a while and the MX-5 felt awful. I didn't feel like I was driving a car but more like an overlay of a car cockpit over a moving image of a track, a bit like those old movies where you see them sat in the car and the background is just a repeating loop of a street as they bounce the car a little to make it look realistic. The sound was anaemic, the MX-5 sounded like a bumble bee stuck in a tin can. The mixture of sound and feedback through the wheel in PCars in particular makes you feel like you are actually changing gear where as the MX-5 in iRacing just felt like I was waggling a stick in a tin can, I don't know how but SMS have really made the gear shifts feel real. I need to play around with the force feedback for iRacing a little more and it is a realistic sim but the other games all managed to feel good right from the start without tweaking.

Assetto Corsa was the best looking racing game in the PC for a while but I did a few laps around Silverstone in the Formula Abarth and then in the Formula C around Silverstone in PCars and it felt more alive and looked better. I couldn't tell you for sure which was the most accurate, all the tracks in AC as far as I know are laser scanned and some of the tracks in PCars but the textures were more detailed and the general atmosphere felt better. I then did a few laps in the Formula Gulf cars around Oulton Park and it was the most fun I've had in a racing game for a long time as I came under pressure from the pack and then managed to pull away putting in consistent laps only to come under pressure again in the last few tense laps. Again the sounds and the force feedback felt really well done and I couldn't help but feel immersed as I did a quick 7 lap race. Its the little things PCars does like the friction of the tyres when the car is stopped and you turn the wheel or the fact you can stall the engine which you can't do in Assetto Corsa and starts just mean high revs and hitting the gear shift in AC instead of feathering the clutch in PCars helps increase the overall immersion so that when you spin you instinctively dump the clutch like you would in a real car.

There is a certain amount of 'sim snobbery' in racing sim circles that I don't like. I've been playing racing games since the ZX Spectrum, played a few on the Amiga before moving on to the PC format and bought pretty much all the main games over the years and consider myself primarily a PC gamer though I own an XBOX and PlayStation also. Its always been about the racing for me so I was quite happy switching from iRacing to GTR2, rFactor to something a little more relaxed like Forza or Gran Turismo but also playing the Project Gotham series that some PC fans sneered at.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 08:47
I just want to be objective here. Compared to Assetto Corsa Project Cars is Simcade! You can clearly see that when you played Assetto Corsa 5 mins ago Nürburgring-Nordschleife Nissan Nismo GT3 and then jump instantly into Project cars. The FF in Assetto Corsa and the tyres are way better simulated. Project cars feels somehow a litte bit flat on the road. You don't get that sense of the tyres like in Assetto Corsa. Nevertheless, I think Project Cars is overall the better package day and night cycles, the weather system etc. I like and appreciate both games. Just my 2 cents!

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 08:55
I just want to be objective here. Compared to Assetto Corsa Project cars is Simcade! You can clearly see that when you played Assetto Corsa 5 mins ago Nürburgring-Nordschleife Nissan Nismo GT3 and then jump instantly into Project cars. The FF in Assetto Corsa and the tyres are way better simulated. Project cars feels somehow a litte bit flat on the road. You don't get that sense of the tyres like in Assetto Corsa. Nevertheless, I think Project Cars is overall the better package day and night cycles, the weather system etc. I like and appreciate both games. Just my 2 cents!

Please don't mistake FFB with physics. I've often read this, that people prefer AC's more canned FFB over PCARS' FFB (which completely lacks those canned effects on purpose) because it gives them a better feel for what the tires are doing. This is totally fine but that has nothing to do with one game or the other being less realistic.

Umer Ahmad
29-06-2015, 08:59
1. Coming from a practicing Muslim guy, sim racers are too religious for me! ;)

2. It's still a game. It tries to simulate everything very well, does an overall good job. But i just participated in a 3 hour kart race (i did 3x 20 min stints, was the quickest on my team) and there are sensations NONE of the simulators will ever accurately capture (primary: G-forces)

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 09:05
... there are sensations NONE of the simulators will ever accurately capture (primary: G-forces)
Don't forget SOP, i.e. feeling the car's intentions and tyres gripping through your spine. From my limited experience in karting, you're using that SoP information more than anything else to feel what the vehicle is doing and what you can and cannot do, and not what's coming to you through the steering wheel.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 09:19
Please don't mistake FFB with physics. I've often read this, that people prefer AC's more canned FFB over PCARS' FFB (which completely lacks those canned effects on purpose) because it gives them a better feel for what the tires are doing. This is totally fine but that has nothing to do with one game or the other being less realistic.

Mate Assetto Corsa's tracks are all laser scanned! You are talking about AC's FFB being canned? Mate are you for real? :) You know I love Project Cars I really do, but claiming the FFB in AC is canned and just a fake as a Sim is complete dogshit. Besides physics and FFB should work in harmony. Again, sorry mate saying that AC is kind of a fake Sim with canned FFB is just laughable!

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 09:27
Mate Assetto Corsa's tracks are all laser scanned! You are talking about AC's FFB being canned? Mate are you for real? :) You know I love Project Cars I really do, but claiming the FFB in AC is canned and just a fake as a Sim is complete dogshit. Besides physics and FFB should work in harmony. Again, sorry mate saying that AC is kind of a fake Sim with canned FFB is just laughable!
Please try and engage in the discussion normally and calmly.

AC's road FFB is known to be a canned effect. The tracks being laser scanned has nothing to do with that. The fact that AC uses canned FFB effects does not mean that it is 'fake', nobody said or even implied that.

EvoM3
29-06-2015, 09:28
It's definitely not a sim. Basic principles apply and you can learn from it but it's designed to be playable by the masses.

If you think this is a sim, try your hand at iRacing.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 09:37
Mate Assetto Corsa's tracks are all laser scanned!

Laser scanning does not make a game more realistic. It can result in more accurately modelled tracks but this doesn't make the physics model more realistic.


Mate Assetto Corsa's tracks are all laser scanned! You are talking about AC's FFB being canned? Mate are you for real? :) You know I love Project Cars I really do, but claiming the FFB in AC is canned and just a fake as a Sim is complete dogshit. Besides physics and FFB should work in harmony. Again, sorry mate saying that AC is kind of a fake Sim with canned FFB is just laughable!

I never said AC is less realistic because of its FFB. But it's a fact that AC uses canned effects in some areas that PCARS doesn't. And I also posted that this doesn't make it less realistic.


It's definitely not a sim. Basic principles apply and you can learn from it but it's designed to be playable by the masses.

If you think this is a sim, try your hand at iRacing.

Care to elaborate?

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 10:01
Laser scanning does not make a game more realistic. It can result in more accurately modelled tracks but this doesn't make the physics model more realistic.



I never said AC is less realistic because of its FFB. But it's a fact that AC uses canned effects in some areas that PCARS doesn't. And I also posted that this doesn't make it less realistic.
















Care to elaborate?

Well mate how will you know how good the physics are if you get no FFB? That's my problem right now with oversteering in Project Cars. I get no FFB of my rear tyres when I lose my tail and cannot react swiftly enough.

Laser scanning does not make it more realistic? Lol! Of course it does, everything is real simulated like corrugations and stuff just like the orignal track. It seems you have never played AC, otherwise you should know that the physics and FFB are superior.

your quote: never said AC is less realistic because of its FFB. Lol of course you did mate. You implied that AC's FFB is all canned and that gives the impression to be the superior Sim and has nothing to do with physics. Again physics and FFB must work in harmony, otherwise it is useless. I hope you get my point! :D

blowfishrulez
29-06-2015, 10:03
Care to elaborate?

That would be a first ;)

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 10:12
It's definitely not a sim. Basic principles apply and you can learn from it but it's designed to be playable by the masses.
Ooh, so real cars are also arcade because they use ABS and TC?

Jaroslav Turna
29-06-2015, 10:21
Well mate how will you know how good the physics are if you get no FFB? That's my problem right now with oversteering in Project Cars. I get no FFB of my rear tyres when I lose my tail and cannot react swiftly enough.

Laser scanning does not make it more realistic? Lol! Of course it does, everything is real simulated like corrugations and stuff just like the orignal track. It seems you have never played AC, otherwise you should know that the physics and FFB are superior.

your quote: never said AC is less realistic because of its FFB. Lol of course you did mate. You implied that AC's FFB is all canned and that gives the impression to be the superior Sim and has nothing to do with physics. Again physics and FFB must work in harmony, otherwise it is useless. I hope you get my point! :D

Physics and FFB are not the same, they are connected, but not the same. So you can judge physics pretty well without FFB. In fact, you can judge underlying physics much better WITHOUT FFB as you can simply concentrate on your input and cars reaction to that, without your input being compromised/influenced by (possibly wrong) FFB.

And about AC .... while they may have slightly better suspension model, their tire model is inferior to ours, which (for me) buries everything they've built over it.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 10:33
Well mate how will you know how good the physics are if you get no FFB? That's my problem right now with oversteering in Project Cars. I get no FFB of my rear tyres when I lose my tail and cannot react swiftly enough.

Tell me what would you feel on a real car's wheel when the rear steps out? AC uses a different FFB approach than PCARS and as I already posted that's totally fine.
FFB is a highly subjective feature and is just an interpretation of what you'd feel in real life anyway.


Laser scanning does not make it more realistic? Lol! Of course it does, everything is real simulated like corrugations and stuff just like the orignal track.

The track modelling of PCARS is by far good enough to give me a realistic experience. Which is the main goal of a ricing SIM. Some tracks are laserscanned in PCARS too btw.


It seems you have never played AC, otherwise you should know that the physics and FFB are superior.

A lot of people seem to disagree with you. So please don't post your own opinion as a fact.


your quote: never said AC is less realistic because of its FFB. Lol of course you did mate. You implied that AC's FFB is all canned and that gives the impression to be the superior Sim and has nothing to do with physics. Again physics and FFB must work in harmony, otherwise it is useless. I hope you get my point! :D

You should've read my whole post:


Please don't mistake FFB with physics. I've often read this, that people prefer AC's more canned FFB over PCARS' FFB (which completely lacks those canned effects on purpose) because it gives them a better feel for what the tires are doing. This is totally fine but that has nothing to do with one game or the other being less realistic.

FMS
29-06-2015, 10:36
Like any simulation, it's not reality but a (good) approximation of reality within its limits and boundary conditions.

Exactly.

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 10:57
Mate Assetto Corsa's tracks are all laser scanned! You are talking about AC's FFB being canned? Mate are you for real? :) You know I love Project Cars I really do, but claiming the FFB in AC is canned and just a fake as a Sim is complete dogshit. Besides physics and FFB should work in harmony. Again, sorry mate saying that AC is kind of a fake Sim with canned FFB is just laughable!

Wow, how to over react...

AC does indeed use canned effects for Kerbs, road and slip.. try turning the sliders up and down in the advanced controls menu..

If you run all the kerbs at Spa with the default settings then turn kerb effects down to zero, you will find all those kerb effects vanish on most kerbs, but there are still some kerbs that will give you some feeling.. the reason for that is exactly the same as in PC, because some of the kerbs are flat and only some are serrated... if they all feel the same that can only be due to using a canned effect.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:01
Physics and FFB are not the same, they are connected, but not the same. So you can judge physics pretty well without FFB. In fact, you can judge underlying physics much better WITHOUT FFB as you can simply concentrate on your input and cars reaction to that, without your input being compromised/influenced by (possibly wrong) FFB.

And about AC .... while they may have slightly better suspension model, their tire model is inferior to ours, which (for me) buries everything they've built over it.

Well mate your argument sounds reasonable, but you forgot one primary thing. As I mentioned before if the physics and FFB don't work together in harmony many physics aspects will be irrelevant. I can just tell you my honest impression when playing AC some mins ago and jumping into Project Cars the car feels somehow flat on the street. It is like where are my tyres? :) After some minutes it is okay again. Jaroslav my point is you guys have to improve the FFB so your physics can truly shine. It is just my personal honest opinion Project Cars better graphics, day and night cycles, great weather system and better AI. Assetto Corsa better driving physics plus FFB and laser scanned tracks. I will open a new threat in regards to the FFB. Why not offering some FFB profiles for the players for every car tested in your Studio to get the best driving experience? You see all these FFB settings can be more of an obstacle than an improvement.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 11:09
Well mate your argument sounds reasonable, but you forgot one primary thing. As I mentioned before if the physics and FFB don't work together in harmony many physics aspects will be irrelevant. I can just tell you my honest impression when playing AC some mins ago and jumping into Project Cars the car feels somehow flat on the street. It is like where are my tyres? :) After some minutes it is okay again. Jaroslav my point is you guys have to improve the FFB so your physics can truly shine. It is just my personal honest opinion Project Cars better graphics, day and night cycles, great weather system and better AI. Assetto Corsa better driving physics plus FFB and laser scanned tracks. I will open a new threat in regards to the FFB. Why not offering some FFB profiles for the players for every car tested in your Studio to get the best driving experience? You see all these FFB settings can be more of an obstacle than an improvement.

Like I said, it's the FFB that you prefer and not the necessarily the physics. You may want to take a look at the following two threads to improve your PCARS FFB experience:

FFB guide: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?29907-Force-Feedback-Guide-for-Project-CARS

Jack Spade's FFB Tweaker files: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files

blowfishrulez
29-06-2015, 11:10
What i totally disprove of in here is the passive notion that the Physics Team at SMS is somehow inexperienced or not 'as good' as other development teams. They are all highly respected, high profile, highly paid industry veterans that simply don't have to 'proof' their capabilities to some kids/guys that prefer another Simulation and embarrassingly fail to rationalize their preference.

People in the industry or RL Race Car Drivers that actually understand a thing or two about driving dynamics, tires and how a simulation works and is implemented will never ever question the achievements in physics realism that Doug, Casey, Andrew, Steve and the other members of the development team have created. Same is true the other way around and that is what separates the class from the mass i guess.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:13
Tell me what would you feel on a real car's wheel when the rear steps out? AC uses a different FFB approach than PCARS and as I already posted that's totally fine.
FFB is a highly subjective feature and is just an interpretation of what you'd feel in real life anyway.



The track modelling of PCARS is by far good enough to give me a realistic experience. Which is the main goal of a ricing SIM. Some tracks are laserscanned in PCARS too btw.



A lot of people seem to disagree with you. So please don't post your own opinion as a fact.



You should've read my whole post:

Don't want to sound mean, but your own opinion is the truth then? You say I shouldn't post my opinion as a fact while at the same time you expressing yours as one. Sorry mate but a little bit objectivity from your side would be nice. You really sound like one of these ultra hardcore fanboys. I for one like both games and showed you the pros and contras. Your arguments are only 100% pro Project Cars which implies you are fanboy. And yes you didn't answer my question in the first place have you ever played Assetto Corsa with a real wheel?

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 11:14
Well mate your argument sounds reasonable, but you forgot one primary thing. As I mentioned before if the physics and FFB don't work together in harmony many physics aspects will be irrelevant. I can just tell you my honest impression when playing AC some mins ago and jumping into Project Cars the car feels somehow flat on the street. It is like where are my tyres? :) After some minutes it is okay again. Jaroslav my point is you guys have to improve the FFB so your physics can truly shine. It is just my personal honest opinion Project Cars better graphics, day and night cycles, great weather system and better AI. Assetto Corsa better driving physics plus FFB and laser scanned tracks. I will open a new threat in regards to the FFB. Why not offering some FFB profiles for the players for every car tested in your Studio to get the best driving experience? You see all these FFB settings can be more of an obstacle than an improvement.

Wrong way around.. people have to stop needing canned effects to use as a crutch and get their head around reading what the tyres are really doing... Project CARS feedback is a lot more subtle, but all the information is there. Try turning them off in AC (I've always run it that way as the effects just feel way off to me), it's not a million miles off PC, but it lacks some subtle feelings (due to having a less complex tyre model). No one here is bashing on AC, most of us already have it (along with most other racing games you could name).. it's just a number of people seem to have a feeling of disconnect due to lack of road noise and lets face reality here, some tracks are smooth as a billiard table and some are like a cart track that hasn't seen any maintenance for 50 years.. that's how they are really.

People need to stop trying to force the FFB to feel like X, Y or Z..

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:15
That right there don't post your own opinion as fact sums up to me what is wrong with all forums I frequent. This thread starts nice and steady then you get 1 or 2 people trying to post their own opinion as fact! DON'T

Reading and I mean real reading between the lines is not your strength isn't it?

Revvin
29-06-2015, 11:18
AC has very nice FFB but I don't think its streets ahead of Pcars like some suggest, I think they are about on par but that could be a lot to do with different wheels being used and how they are set up. The one big immersion killer for me in AC is the lack of decent clutch modelling. On the start line its no better than an arcade game you just floor the accelerator and hit the gear up switch as fast as you can and there is no stalling when you spin. In Project Cars you have decent clutch control and you have to instinctively dump the clutch if you spin to avoid the stall. I don't know how someone can call PCars 'simcade' when other highly regarded sims could learn a thing or two from PCars. No one sim is perfect but even if we could take the best from each sim and mould it into one super sim I'm sure there would still be some who would complain.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:22
Like I said, it's the FFB that you prefer and not the necessarily the physics. You may want to take a look at the following two threads to improve your PCARS FFB experience:

FFB guide: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?29907-Force-Feedback-Guide-for-Project-CARS

Jack Spade's FFB Tweaker files: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files

Thanks mate will check it out. Will open later a new threat concerning FFB profiles coming directly from the dev team. Thanks for your help

TenthDan
29-06-2015, 11:22
Reading and I mean real reading between the lines is not your strength isn't it?

Why does there need to be lines to read between? If the obvious text of a post is good then there is no need to 'really' read between the lines.

Do you also apologise for saying AC having canned FFB is 'laughable' and dogshit? Because it's a fact, they use some canned effects, as pCARS did in earlier builds before they were all removed.

And it's fine that you like AC FFB and physics better. As others are fine to say pCARS FFB and physics is better.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 11:27
Don't want to sound mean, but your own opinion is the truth then? You say I shouldn't post my opinion as a fact while at the same time you expressing yours as one.

Where? The only fact I posted was that AC is using canned effects. And that is a fact, not an opinion.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:32
What i totally disprove of in here is the passive notion that the Physics Team at SMS is somehow inexperienced or not 'as good' as other development teams. They are all highly respected, high profile, highly paid industry veterans that simply don't have to 'proof' their capabilities to some kids/guys that prefer another Simulation and embarrassingly fail to rationalize their preference.

People in the industry or RL Race Car Drivers that actually understand a thing or two about driving dynamics, tires and how a simulation works and is implemented will never ever question the achievements in physics realism that Doug, Casey, Andrew, Steve and the other members of the development team have created. Same is true the other way around and that is what separates the class from the mass i guess.

So you are one of the flock? It is funny how a fanboy wants to tell others how they should think and behave. I am not a fanboy I will never jump on the bandwagon. Thank you for your understanding :D

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 11:33
Compared to.... NFS, SHIFT2, or similar

pCars are a hardcore Sim.

Compared to..... Granturismo and Forza

pCars are a real Motorsport Simulation Game

Compared to GTR2, Race07, rFactor1, rFactor2, iRacing, GSC 2013, Life for Speed

pCars are a nice and funny ArcardeSim ...... Unfortunately no more.

Why?

What a simulation mainly matters is

a) the claim to keep the car in the boundary region

b) The impact of the damage (absolutly important)

c) And the realistic, mathematically correct impact of external circumstances
**** particularly the tire modell

And in all 3 areas, pCars is unfortunately in its current condition, still far away
of a realistic simulation.

For most console gamers, compare pCars with the famous racing games, the step to pCars is enormous.
For us, PC simulation gamers pcars unfortunately, to integrate more claim and realism, despite all efforts,
makes a nice pastime of fun.

If the devs had more courage and rFactor2 and iRacing standars set, at least as an option, which would pCars
absloute reference in professional simulation.

That's primarily my opinion but also in many other forums, here with us!

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 11:33
So you are one of the flock? It is funny how a fanboy wants to tell others how they should think and behave. I am not a fanboy I will never jump on the bandwagon. Thank you for your understanding :D

Can we stop the fanboy vs. hater "argumentation" please. This adds zero to the discussion. Thanks

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 11:36
So, even more factually, I can not represent that, possibly the problem is with you? :)

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:37
Why does there need to be lines to read between? If the obvious text of a post is good then there is no need to 'really' read between the lines.

Do you also apologise for saying AC having canned FFB is 'laughable' and dogshit? Because it's a fact, they use some canned effects, as pCARS did in earlier builds before they were all removed.

And it's fine that you like AC FFB and physics better. As others are fine to say pCARS FFB and physics is better.

To clarify the mate is telling I shouldn't post my opinion as a fact while at the same time he is expressing his own opinions as facts. Read it for yourself thats what I meant read between the lines.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 11:37
So, even more factually, I can not represent that, possibly the problem is with you? :)

No, you ninja'd me with your post.
My post was directed at the one above your's.


To clarify the mate is telling I shouldn't post my opinion as a fact while at the same time he is expressing his own opinions as facts. Read it for yourself thats what I meant read between the lines.

I'll ask again: Where?

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 11:39
upps, right! Sorry.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:44
Where? The only fact I posted was that AC is using canned effects. And that is a fact, not an opinion.

You love the canned effects do you? :). Read you whole quotes and tell me you being objective? Also you didn't answer my question have you ever played Assetto Corsa with a proper wheel? It is easy to argument like a fanboy on one side and you never played both games!

blowfishrulez
29-06-2015, 11:44
So you are one of the flock? It is funny how a fanboy wants to tell others how they should think and behave. I am not a fanboy I will never jump on the bandwagon. Thank you for your understanding :D

Since you are apparently unable to read and understand and you prefer to bite and hold on to your weak and circular argumentation, there is not much more to explain to you. Good luck with the ongoing exchange :eagerness:

EvoM3
29-06-2015, 11:46
Care to elaborate?

Sure, I don't mind elaborating.

1. Damage physics way to forgiving
2. Grass/off track grip values far too high
3. Grip in wet too high
4. Tyre grip physics are too high when the wheels are locked/ sliding
5. Collision physics are weak
6. Ripple strips are unrealistic (you cant belt the big ones like you do in this game)
7. No pit control
8. Engine can take way too much abuse
9. Cant select neutral while rolling

Hey it's a great game but the fact is the game rewards you for driving in a way that you couldnt in real life, therefore, it is not a sim.

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 11:46
Compared to.... NFS, SHIFT2, or similar

pCars are a hardcore Sim.

Compared to..... Granturismo and Forza

pCars are a real Motorsport Simulation Game

Compared to GTR2, Race07, rFactor1, rFactor2, iRacing, GSC 2013, Life for Speed

pCars are a nice and funny ArcardeSim ...... Unfortunately no more.

Why?

What a simulation mainly matters is

a) the claim to keep the car in the boundary region

b) The impact of the damage (absolutly important)

c) And the realistic, mathematically correct impact of external circumstances
**** particularly the tire modell

And in all 3 areas, pCars is unfortunately in its current condition, still far away
of a realistic simulation.

For most console gamers, compare pCars with the famous racing games, the step to pCars is enormous.
For us, PC simulation gamers pcars unfortunately, to integrate more claim and realism, despite all efforts,
makes a nice pastime of fun.

If the devs had more courage and rFactor2 and iRacing standars set, at least as an option, which would pCars
absloute reference in professional simulation.

That's primarily my opinion but also in many other forums, here with us!
Again, you're stating all of this as if it were facts, while it is just your opinion. What defines a 'true simulation' totally depends on the person. You think that GTR2 is a True Simulation? Then look again at the way the tyres are modeled and how grip falls off way too much when over the slip curve peak. You think that AC is a True Simulation? Look at how they don't model the angular moment of the wheels so that pressing the brake pedal when the car is in the air does not have influence on the car's angular momentum as a whole.

Just a couple of examples how certain games that are declared True Simulators by some are factually missing correct basic race car physics. Does that make them worthless, simcade or fake? Certainly not. Every game can be declared sim or arcade, depending on what particular detail you zoom in on and whether you personally think it's important or not.
The worst you can do, though, is declare your own personal preferences and opinion as The Truth and with that start declaring games to be arcade, simcade or True Sim, and call people who don't agree with you fanboys.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 11:49
Also you didn't answer my question have you ever played Assetto Corsa with a proper wheel?

Yes I have, but only a few hours because I don't own it myself.

Now it's your turn to answer my question.

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 11:49
Compared to.... NFS, SHIFT2, or similar

pCars are a hardcore Sim.

Compared to..... Granturismo and Forza

pCars are a real Motorsport Simulation Game

Compared to GTR2, Race07, rFactor1, rFactor2, iRacing, GSC 2013, Life for Speed

pCars are a nice and funny ArcardeSim ...... Unfortunately no more.

Why?

What a simulation mainly matters is

a) the claim to keep the car in the boundary region

b) The impact of the damage (absolutly important)

c) And the realistic, mathematically correct impact of external circumstances
**** particularly the tire modell

And in all 3 areas, pCars is unfortunately in its current condition, still far away
of a realistic simulation.

For most console gamers, compare pCars with the famous racing games, the step to pCars is enormous.
For us, PC simulation gamers pcars unfortunately, to integrate more claim and realism, despite all efforts,
makes a nice pastime of fun.

If the devs had more courage and rFactor2 and iRacing standars set, at least as an option, which would pCars
absloute reference in professional simulation.

That's primarily my opinion but also in many other forums, here with us!

Nice insight dude. Thank you!

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 11:49
Sure, I don't mind elaborating.

1. Damage physics way to forgiving
2. Grass/off track grip values far too high
3. Grip in wet too high
4. Tyre grip physics are too high when the wheels are locked/ sliding
5. Collision physics are weak
6. Ripple strips are unrealistic (you cant belt the big ones like you do in this game)
7. No pit control
8. Engine can take way too much abuse
9. Cant select neutral while rolling

Hey it's a great game but the fact is the game rewards you for driving in a way that you couldnt in real life, therefore, it is not a sim.
The fact that damage thresholds are too high or certain grip values are too high (in your opinion BTW) doesn't make a game not a sim, at most it makes it a sim with some parameter values off.

I bet that someone could make a list for any other race sim out there including iRacing of things that aren't quite right compared to real life. Therefore all those games are not sims either.

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 11:51
As I said Remco, that's my opinion and that of many in several forums.
Where are you in these forums? Dare you of times and come to visit us and
represent your opinion there. That would be exciting.

Evo3 Your points represent 100% exactly what thousands again many forums
complain about with us. Thanks for that!

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 12:00
As I said Remco, that's my opinion and that of many in several forums.
Where are you in these forums? Dare you of times and come to visit us and
represent your opinion there. That would be exciting.
That would be a rather pointless exercise, because when people are mixing up 'simulation' with 'fits my personal preferences', no meaningful discussion will be possible.

As I stated above, you can find flaws in any racing sim available, so depending on what you think is important it will suddenly be arcade, or simcade at best, no matter how good the game simulates other aspects of racing. That is just using an arbitrary and subjective definition of 'simulation', which makes discussing it pointless.

Jaroslav Turna
29-06-2015, 12:01
As I said Remco, that's my opinion and that of many in several forums.
Where are you in these forums? Dare you of times and come to visit us and
represent your opinion there. That would be exciting.

Evo3 Your points represent 100% exactly what thousands again many forums
complain about with us. Thanks for that!

Thousands (in your words) people complaining about something still does not mean they are right.
There is at least same amount of people who will tell you that pCARS is more simulation than AC, rF, iR or whatever sim you choose.
What makes their opinion less relevant/right than yours and of your forum mates?

TheReaper GT
29-06-2015, 12:05
I've stop reading on THOUSANDS. Way too delusional for me. Not following that thread anymore.

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 12:11
@Jaroslav more than AC I fully agree!

They have the same (and more) "Problems" as pCars.

We do not come to a common denominator. The thread name is a question I have
told you my opinion. 70,000 other Sim driver talking no longer about pCars, although
they were prepared to do so, the drive for good reasons simply iRacing on. Guess why?

You can ignore the calmly or improve it, and not just with pCars 2 .... because that will
make already REIZA with GSC 2014, bet?

or you get here with Patch 2.5 nor the right direction towards before Christmas, then, and
only then ... I see an opportunity pCars as real n Simracer accept.

ONLY MY OPINION

Good Afternoon all...its time for work :-)

Jubei2011
29-06-2015, 12:14
Barking dogs never bite? I just got a warning from the Master himself Remco Van Dijk! :) It is amazing getting a warning for calling the dude a fanboy. Well guess what mate you have for sure proven that you are one ;) Typical teen behavior a fanboy is not even an insult, but rather to determine someone as hardcore fan. You know what kid ban me! :) If you are not man enough to accept someone's personal opinion well so be it.

Dear Jubei2011,

You have received a warning at Project CARS Official Forum.

Reason:
-------
Insulted Other Member(s)

Stop calling people fanboys if you don't agree with them, or when they don't agree with you.

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 12:14
Nice building up of numbers there Robert. Next posting I expect millions of sim racers being disgusted at pCARS's arcade tyre model :p

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 12:16
Barking dogs never bite? I just got a warning from the Master himself! :) It is amazing getting a warning for calling the dude a fanboy. Well guess what mate you have for sure proven that you are one ;) Typical teen behavior a fanboy is not even an insult, but rather to determine someone as hardcore fan. You know what kid ban me! :) If you are not man enough to accept someone's personal opinion well so bet it.

Dear Jubei2011,

You have received a warning at Project CARS Official Forum.

Reason:
-------
Insulted Other Member(s)

Stop calling people fanboys if you don't agree with them, or when they don't agree with you.
Calling someone a fanboy is not the same as posting you opinion in a respectful discussion. Have a cool-off period.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 12:19
If you are not man enough to accept someone's personal opinion well so be it.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 12:20
Sarcasm and ridicule, which is and was always at the end of your last weapon. So ...

you'll find just the right groups that are right ahead on something

Sloskimo
29-06-2015, 12:21
I think what we need is a petition... Robert?

marcioindau
29-06-2015, 12:22
For me, it´s a real driving simulator, not a racing simulator. Why? Because the A.I. dont suffer from mechanical damages and fly in the grass...

chig88
29-06-2015, 12:24
Are you enjoying the game? Yes?

Then that's all that matters. Whether it's classified as a sim or not is a pointless argument.

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 12:26
I think what we need is a petition... Robert?

Well then let's go, to feel free....

danowat
29-06-2015, 12:37
3. Grip in wet too high

That's a "complaint" I've not seen much of!

blowfishrulez
29-06-2015, 12:44
Barking dogs never bite? I just got a warning from the Master himself Remco Van Dijk! :) It is amazing getting a warning for calling the dude a fanboy. Well guess what mate you have for sure proven that you are one ;) Typical teen behavior a fanboy is not even an insult, but rather to determine someone as hardcore fan. You know what kid ban me! :) If you are not man enough to accept someone's personal opinion well so be it.

Dear Jubei2011,

You have received a warning at Project CARS Official Forum.

Reason:
-------
Insulted Other Member(s)

Stop calling people fanboys if you don't agree with them, or when they don't agree with you.

For the record: I didn't report his post nor do i dislike other Simulations, i own them all. They all have pros and cons. For the moment i feel most immersed while driving a car in PCars. I drive rFactor 2 to enjoy well made mods and obscure Race Tracks, not seen in other games. I do hotlaps in AC when i want to drive the yellow bird or some italian stallions. My statement before clearly states that the respect between simulation experts in this industry is exemplary and is a good role model to adopt in the community.

EDIT: Here is a YT Playlist with 32 Lectures from a Indian University about the simulation of vehicle dynamics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ82iANWBL0&list=PLbMVogVj5nJTW50jj9_gvJmdwFWHaqR5J

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 12:45
Nice building up of numbers there Robert. Next posting I expect millions of sim racers being disgusted at pCARS's arcade tyre model :p

I'm still trying to work out if the number is 331/3, 45 or 78...

whatever it is, I know it appears to be stuck

EvoM3
29-06-2015, 12:48
The fact that damage thresholds are too high or certain grip values are too high (in your opinion BTW) doesn't make a game not a sim, at most it makes it a sim with some parameter values off.

I bet that someone could make a list for any other race sim out there including iRacing of things that aren't quite right compared to real life. Therefore all those games are not sims either.

Your logic is easily defeated. If those parameter values are off enough to allow users to drive in a way that you couldnt in real life, it's not a SIM..

Tap a wall in iracing, take a trip across the grass, belt a ripple strip at full speed... your race is over..

I think the part you are missing is that maybe thats not a critisism... I'm saying PCars is a great game, is it a Sim? No it's not.. it's accessible to the masses.. could every person in this forum get in a GT3 car and do even 1 lap without crashing? Probably not.. so maybe PCars finds the right balance between SIM and ARCADE... but (and this is not an opinion), it's not a sim... Why? Because the game rewards drivers for driving in a way that you simply couldnt in real life... therefore people take risks and do things they wouldnt do in real life (or iRacing haha)..

Angst1974
29-06-2015, 12:50
It's this realistic ....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/338/19222460856_8ab975e8cd_z.jpg

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 12:53
I'm still trying to work out if the number is 331/3, 45 or 78...

whatever it is, I know it appears to be stuck

@MAD AI

You count it yourself ... and when you're done, then I send you at least 5 other forum,
discuss the same issue ....... but I know we all have no idea, right?

Ridiculous!

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/lets-give-sms-a-little-credit-here.106287/

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 12:56
@MAD AI

You count it yourself ... and when you're done, then I send you at least 5 other forum,
discuss the same issue ....... but I know we all have no idea, right?

Ridiculous!


http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/lets-give-sms-a-little-credit-here.106287/


That obviously went straight over your head....

ONT
29-06-2015, 12:59
This thread started out nice......

209963

robertedell
29-06-2015, 13:09
It's this realistic ....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/338/19222460856_8ab975e8cd_z.jpg

Every sim has funny pictures where something does not seem right, I have seen them posted be they iRacing, Assetto Corsa, Race07, rFactor etc.

No sim is perfect and you can find faults in each one. People pick apart iRacing, Assetto Corsa, rFactor, R3E, etc. and people complain about the faults of those sims endlessly.

What surprises me is how some people can see the faults in some sims but not the ones they think are so great.

The sims of today are all pretty good (but far from perfect) each have their strengths and weaknesses.

FMS
29-06-2015, 13:10
"Real life" can never be replicated via numbers.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 13:15
Your logic is easily defeated. If those parameter values are off enough to allow users to drive in a way that you couldnt in real life, it's not a SIM..

Tap a wall in iracing, take a trip across the grass, belt a ripple strip at full speed... your race is over..

I think the part you are missing is that maybe thats not a critisism... I'm saying PCars is a great game, is it a Sim? No it's not.. it's accessible to the masses.. could every person in this forum get in a GT3 car and do even 1 lap without crashing? Probably not.. so maybe PCars finds the right balance between SIM and ARCADE... but (and this is not an opinion), it's not a sim... Why? Because the game rewards drivers for driving in a way that you simply couldnt in real life... therefore people take risks and do things they wouldnt do in real life (or iRacing haha)..

I think we can agree that off track behaviour and damage sensitivity could/should be improved for PCARS.
On the other hand, a lot of people (including real race car drivers) are complaining that iRacing is too unforgiving when losing traction over curbs or when overdriving the cars.

Regarding driving a GT3 car IRL: Your overestimating the difficulty of driving those cars. From what our handling consultants (and Rene Rast) posted they're actually very easy to drive fast (easier than road cars actually).
The real difficulty is to constantly drive them on the edge of grip without losing control. And I think PCARS simulates this pretty well.


@MAD AI

You count it yourself ... and when you're done, then I send you at least 5 other forum,
discuss the same issue ....... but I know we all have no idea, right?

Ridiculous!

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/lets-give-sms-a-little-credit-here.106287/

You're quoting a racedepartment thread for discussing PCARS physics/sim quality? Really?

ONT
29-06-2015, 13:25
"Real life" can never be replicated via numbers.

The sensation when You hear a 700 hp race engine backfire, the smell of race fuel in the cockpitl, the G-force going from 180 mph down to 140 in a high bank turn at the end of Nellis straight,
the burnt rubber......

Love sim racing, but its hard to beat the real thing :cool:

Fong74
29-06-2015, 13:39
Your logic is easily defeated. If those parameter values are off enough to allow users to drive in a way that you couldnt in real life, it's not a SIM..

Tap a wall in iracing, take a trip across the grass, belt a ripple strip at full speed... your race is over..

I have to disaggree here. I like iRacing, too, tbh. But what it "simulates" in those situations you name here, is over the top I think. Its just my opinion based on real life race coverages and what I can derive from those in comparison to the named situations in iRacing. I just feel its not quite spot on. Its too much of the "make the driver fear the boundary" video game approach, which may be valid to a certain extent. But if we talk about how close a racing title is to RL, I would say, iRacing is a bit over the top, whereas pC is not yet quite at the top when it comes to your examples.


I think the part you are missing is that maybe thats not a critisism... I'm saying PCars is a great game, is it a Sim? No it's not.. it's accessible to the masses.. could every person in this forum get in a GT3 car and do even 1 lap without crashing? Probably not.. so maybe PCars finds the right balance between SIM and ARCADE... but (and this is not an opinion), it's not a sim... Why? Because the game rewards drivers for driving in a way that you simply couldnt in real life... therefore people take risks and do things they wouldnt do in real life (or iRacing haha)..

I am also very sure, almost everyone here could drive a GT3 around a track easily. Fast when it comes to laptimes? That I really doubt, but not because its that hard to do from a piloting perspective, but because of the fear to break something or not being able to bear g-forces for longer times.

But thats all just my personal thoughts on that, so pls dont kill me :cool:

p.s.:
I am a fanboy btw when it comes to the community based dev/info approach of pC and what has been achieved so far with it....there is nothing similar around compared to it. I'll better not mention the communication concerning the tire model of iRacing in contrast....or PDs communication on bugs and fixes.....etc, etc.

Umer Ahmad
29-06-2015, 13:42
Well mate your argument sounds reasonable, but you forgot one primary thing. As I mentioned before if the physics and FFB don't work together in harmony many physics aspects will be irrelevant. I can just tell you my honest impression when playing AC some mins ago and jumping into Project Cars the car feels somehow flat on the street. It is like where are my tyres? :) After some minutes it is okay again. Jaroslav my point is you guys have to improve the FFB so your physics can truly shine. It is just my personal honest opinion Project Cars better graphics, day and night cycles, great weather system and better AI. Assetto Corsa better driving physics plus FFB and laser scanned tracks. I will open a new threat in regards to the FFB. Why not offering some FFB profiles for the players for every car tested in your Studio to get the best driving experience? You see all these FFB settings can be more of an obstacle than an improvement.
Discussion has migrated to something else but i want to review this FFB area.

So AC has an FFB slider named "KERBS". Do you know why pCARS does NOT have this slider? Stop, think about. It's a very important point.

Because it is a canned/fake effect DETACHED from the AC physics!

Also pCARS does NOT have canned/fake effects named "aquaplaning" or "wheel hop" or "road vibration". Again, you know why? Because the FFB in pCARS comes directly from the tyres/physics. They (AJ) did not have to invent categories like this with the STM. If the tyres hit a 3D object you will feel it. Simple. Thats why the sliders in project cars are NOT named after these 3D objects like in AC.

So i dont see how one can advance the argument that AC FFB can make them appreciate the phyiscs better when they are exactly super-physical FFB logic to compensate for what pCARS STM gives you NATURALLY.

ONT
29-06-2015, 13:48
I think iRacing is pretty spot on RL with it's brutal damage and that promotes better driving, but I don't think most people would like the RL simulated repair times.

A good compromise for pCARS would be damage like iRacing, but a trip to the pit without the repair time.

Umer Ahmad
29-06-2015, 13:52
Discussion has migrated to something else but i want to review this FFB area.

So AC has an FFB slider named "KERBS". Do you know why pCARS does NOT have this slider? Stop, think about. It's a very important point.

Because it is a canned/fake effect DETACHED from the AC physics!

Also pCARS does NOT have canned/fake effects named "aquaplaning" or "wheel hop" or "road vibration". Again, you know why? Because the FFB in pCARS comes directly from the tyres/physics. They (AJ) did not have to invent categories like this with the STM. If the tyres hit a 3D object you will feel it. Simple. Thats why the sliders in project cars are NOT named after these 3D objects like in AC.

So i dont see how one can advance the argument that AC FFB can make them appreciate the phyiscs better when they are exactly super-physical FFB logic to compensate for what pCARS STM gives you NATURALLY.

Short version: if you are an FFB "purist" and you buy a racing game with an FFB slider named KERBS, uninstall it and get a refund . You will not get pure physics-driven FFB.

Robert Gerke
29-06-2015, 13:58
Both would be the solution! More options for all types of drivers. Why determine from the
outset, for one or the other? Let but the Administration and users decide which difficulty
level, then everyone would be happy.

Keyword Slider => 0% without damage to 100% "hardcore" realistic Damage

The same with the repair Time in garage, wear of engine, brakes, tires, springs, suspension, aero, etc.

GamingCanuck
29-06-2015, 14:06
I am also very sure, almost everyone here could drive a GT3 around a track easily. Fast when it comes to laptimes? That I really doubt, but not because its that hard to do from a piloting perspective, but because of the fear to break something or not being able to bear g-forces for longer times.

But thats all just my personal thoughts on that, so pls dont kill me :cool:

p.s.:
I am a fanboy btw when it comes to the community based dev/info approach of pC and what has been achieved so far with it....there is nothing similar around compared to it. I'll better not mention the communication concerning the tire model of iRacing in contrast....or PDs communication on bugs and fixes.....etc, etc.

It's unfortunate but iRacing has convinced so many people that race cars are hard to drive even while being off pace by 15+ seconds, when they're not. I've heard a lot of real world racers say race cars are easy to drive, as they should be since they have tons of downforce and slick tires, but what's not easy is setting really fast lap times. It's that last few seconds that separates the good from the great.

I've asked this before and no one has answered it, if iRacing is so great and so realistic, why has the tire model changed so much in the last few years? The way the cars handle now is very different from how they handled when I first joined back in 2009.


but (and this is not an opinion), it's not a sim... Why? Because the game rewards drivers for driving in a way that you simply couldnt in real life... therefore people take risks and do things they wouldnt do in real life (or iRacing haha)..

That most certainly is an opinion and far from fact. iRacing's tire model has always rewarded people who drive unrealistically, in fact I find I'm faster driving like I would in the real world on pCars but I'm much slower on iRacing.

daddyboosive
29-06-2015, 14:11
How people can say this game is not a sim is beyond me.... iRacing is very fanboy based in my opinion and has also been building it's community for years now. So trying to change their opinion is always going to be hard. When this game irons out the majority of its many many bugs. It will be the racing sim to have in my opinion.

danowat
29-06-2015, 14:15
How people can say this game is not a sim is beyond me.... iRacing is very fanboy based in my opinion and has also been building it's community for years now. So trying to change their opinion is always going to be hard. When this game irons out the majority of its many many bugs. It will be the racing sim to have in my opinion.

Does it really matter what other people say / think?

GamingCanuck
29-06-2015, 14:16
How people can say this game is not a sim is beyond me.... iRacing is very fanboy based in my opinion and has also been building it's community for years now. So trying to change their opinion is always going to be hard. When this game irons out the majority of its many many bugs. It will be the racing sim to have in my opinion.

Unfortunately a lot of people see Dave K as the second coming of Jesus, and everything he does is perfect. People loved Nr2k3, said it was the most realistic thing ever and then iRacing came along and now that's the most realistic thing ever. If you say it's not then you're met with backlash and you clearly don't know what you're talking about, because how dare you question Dave K?

The only thing iRacing does better than every other sim out right now is the structured racing...and you have to sell body parts to afford it, but don't complain about the price because "it's cheaper than real racing".

JeyD02
29-06-2015, 14:32
The elements that need to improve the most so you can feel the simulation of the game are first; the pure FFB input feedback to driver, it's missing some effects and performance, also second; a proper car tune up. Some people have trouble with some default setups which makes the car handles odd.

When these two are correctly tuned, you'll really feel the experience.

ONT
29-06-2015, 14:33
I don't see the point in this AC has X wrong, iRacing is to expensive, rFactor to loose etc etc etc


Take the best thing from other sims and get those features in to pCARS to make it better :)


Samsung was smart and took the best things from the iPhone and made it better type mentality.

Sloskimo
29-06-2015, 14:57
Unfortunately a lot of people see Dave K as the second coming of Jesus, and everything he does is perfect. People loved Nr2k3, said it was the most realistic thing ever and then iRacing came along and now that's the most realistic thing ever. If you say it's not then you're met with backlash and you clearly don't know what you're talking about, because how dare you question Dave K?

The only thing iRacing does better than every other sim out right now is the structured racing...and you have to sell body parts to afford it, but don't complain about the price because "it's cheaper than real racing".

But who are these people? iRacing does a few things right, but realistic is not one of them. I do not see how iRacing even merits a mention as far as the "realism" thing goes, since it's absolutely unrealistic. It's hard, yes, but I do not see how taking corners and spinning out at pedestrian speeds that moms regularly do in their SUVs while texting and changing their baby's diaper adds to realism.

MrTulip
29-06-2015, 15:02
Sure, I don't mind elaborating.

1. Damage physics way to forgiving
2. Grass/off track grip values far too high
3. Grip in wet too high
4. Tyre grip physics are too high when the wheels are locked/ sliding
5. Collision physics are weak
6. Ripple strips are unrealistic (you cant belt the big ones like you do in this game)
7. No pit control
8. Engine can take way too much abuse
9. Cant select neutral while rolling

Hey it's a great game but the fact is the game rewards you for driving in a way that you couldnt in real life, therefore, it is not a sim.

Thanks! :)

1. Agree

2. Disagree. Not all grass is equal, nor is it flat; if the soil is sinking, the speed goes down fast. So in the end both fail in same measure.

3. Not sure. There is not much to compare to (with sims). According to Ben Collins lateral grip is not affected that much, though.

4. Disagree. This is a big differentiating point of pCARS and how I've understood it, it is that on purpose.

5. Agree

6. Agree on behalf of the biggest ones. I think this is really same as number 5, as you would get damage. Also guts are not simulated.

7. Agree

8. Not sure. If the engine is properly limited I think one can abuse it quite a lot, and it depends on the definition of abuse.
I haven't started testing with aggressive downshifts like was used to do in iRacing until they fixed it, but I expect pCARS engine to withstand too much of that unrealistic driving style, leading to uneven competition.

9. Not a problem with H-shifter with a car that doesn't have sequential gears. May depend on what one is driving.

As you can see I mostly agree with you, but I'd raise attention to number 4. It is a lot more important for me than the rest of the points. It does not matter what else the sim does right if it gets this wrong, since this is the essence of driving; tyre deformation before the sliding happens, how the grip is lost, what happens during the slide and how grip is again regained.
iRacing is not actually famous of getting two of the latter right, and iRacing forums tell me that I'm not the only one that has been unhappy with the tyre development, so the grass is greener looking from the other side of the fence...

Maybe it is about what specific cars we are talking about, since iRacing doesn't really simulate normal or high performance road cars without wings and with grooved street tyres. Meaning here that it does not have those types of car at all. Their promise has never been that either, so it is hard to fault them for focusing on purely racing gear. But since it does not simulate all aspects of racing (GT Legends roster would be welcome for instance), I suspect it hasn't had need to properly look what happens past the high point of slip angle. Kaemmer even mentioned himself (in his blog) that this is grey area; that there is not enough tyre manufacturer data available and it is a guessing game. Same has been heard from Forza developers just this year, so things may not have changed lately.

I've done several seasons in iRacing, and with some success too. However, I was left stranded after Skip Barber, since there were no more grooved tyres in upper car classes. And grooved or not, eventually they ruined tyres of Skip Barber for me, at least until very last updates this Spring. Lotus 49 is the only car I've been happy with in iRacing for years. The rest... ...nope.
MX5 feels especially bad; sliding far too much after the initial grip has been lost.

Many race spec cars I've tested in pCARS do seem to slide in respect for their selections of spec and tyres. No happy powersliding and no easy recovers for cars with fat slicks. There is a bit more of the yanking motion before the grip has broken off, though, which to me feels fantastic.

ONT
29-06-2015, 15:03
But who are these people? iRacing does a few things right, but realistic is not one of them. I do not see how iRacing even merits a mention as far as the "realism" thing goes, since it's absolutely unrealistic. It's hard, yes, but I do not see how taking corners and spinning out at pedestrian speeds that moms regularly do in their SUVs while texting and changing their baby's diaper adds to realism.

I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as useful as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:

OnyxD
29-06-2015, 15:04
Discussion has migrated to something else but i want to review this FFB area.

So AC has an FFB slider named "KERBS". Do you know why pCARS does NOT have this slider? Stop, think about. It's a very important point.

Because it is a canned/fake effect DETACHED from the AC physics!

Also pCARS does NOT have canned/fake effects named "aquaplaning" or "wheel hop" or "road vibration". Again, you know why? Because the FFB in pCARS comes directly from the tyres/physics. They (AJ) did not have to invent categories like this with the STM. If the tyres hit a 3D object you will feel it. Simple. Thats why the sliders in project cars are NOT named after these 3D objects like in AC.

So i dont see how one can advance the argument that AC FFB can make them appreciate the phyiscs better when they are exactly super-physical FFB logic to compensate for what pCARS STM gives you NATURALLY.

This is a very good point here. I much prefer the ethos that the FFB comes direct from the physics model without any 'canned' effects. However the reality of this design choice is that pCars has quite a 'dead' feeling wheel compared to other sims. Other sims may use fake effects in their FFB to achieve their road feel, but it does 'work' to give you an alive wheel.

In pCars I have driven at 170mph and had absolutely nothing coming back through the wheel. Even after much tweaking (jack spade tweakers, dead zone removal etc) this is still the case.

I would suggest that perhaps pCars needs to introduce some engine/chassis vibration into the system, so it's not just the tyre model feeding the FFB? In reality we would feel the engine shake through the steering wheel (and seat!). Or perhaps they need to improve the non-laser scanned tracks by applying a 'noise filter' to the 3d surface so there is more natural road vibration coming through the tyres?

I'm hoping for further improvements in pCars for FFB.

GamingCanuck
29-06-2015, 15:06
I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as usfull as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:

No, it's because they can make 10k while playing a video game and it's the only sim that provides structured racing.

ONT
29-06-2015, 15:17
No, it's because they can make 10k while playing a video game and it's the only sim that provides structured racing.

So lets structure the MP racing in pCARS MP better than iRacing and I'm sure we can come up with double the price pot with all the profits from pCARS :)

There is no reason pCARS can't be better.

Sloskimo
29-06-2015, 15:19
I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as useful as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:

I never said it sucked, I said it was unrealistic. Nor does the fact anybody uses anything have any relationship to how realistic it might or might not be. They are not related.

ONT
29-06-2015, 15:26
I never said it sucked, I said it was unrealistic. Nor does the fact anybody uses anything have any relationship to how realistic it might or might not be. They are not related.

True that there is no grantee, but if You see more PRO and amateur RL racers using one sim over another it's a good indication.

But I admit the track accuracy is a BIG player in the mater of iRacing.

Also the fact that iRacing is promoted hard at every level of RL racing events.

Goruk
29-06-2015, 15:29
Question to someone with knowledge:

Does driver seat position have an impact on car behavior?

I think it has, but it could be just a placebo thing.

Sloskimo
29-06-2015, 15:35
True that there is no grantee, but if You see more PRO and amateur RL racers using one sim over another it's a good indication.

But I admit the track accuracy is a BIG player in that mater.

It's not an indication of anything besides preference, which is still no indication of realism, but iRacing does well in providing a nice fair multiplayer environment and in general does a lot of things pretty well. I have played it btw, otherwise I would not have commented on it. I just found it hard to spin out in a corner I could take in a trabant and spinning and then thinking "Yep, feels realistic!"

Perhaps things are better with their latest tire model(s), stopped somewhere in 2014, the low speed spins irked me. Anyway I guess in the end it all comes down to preferences and even perception.
So let's end it here, before we get in a mud slinging match :P

Sankyo
29-06-2015, 15:37
Question to someone with knowledge:

Does driver seat position have an impact on car behavior?

I think it has, but it could be just a placebo thing.
In theory it would because it changes the weight distribution. That's why the seat in the Gumpert is not adjustable (IIRC seeing that mentioned in Top Gear). But it can certainly alter the perception of the behaviour of the car, especially when playing on a flat and limited screen.

robertedell
29-06-2015, 15:38
I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as useful as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best (iRacing) sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:

1) The best iRacing sim drivers are not necessarily the best sim drivers and this is irrelevant to topic how realistic is pCars?

2) Some of the best real racers in the world have criticized iRacing. Earnhardt said in real life race cars are not as difficult to drive as they are in iRacing.

Revvin
29-06-2015, 15:41
OK, if we're going to hold iRacing up as an example of super realistic physics...


https://youtu.be/Wsr7rLaBFAc

I could find plenty more of those, I could post them all day if I wanted but does it make iRacing a bad sim? no, I love iRacing, I'm paid up until the end of 2017 I like it so much and I own all the cars and tracks. The point is I could find odd video's or screenshots like that for any game. These games are so complex now compared to what they were, I was reminded of this just last week looking at a screenshot for Codemasters F1, look at the detail in this pit lane scene and compare it to Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix underneath which I absolutely played to death and thought it was super realistic

209986
209987

Thousands complain about Project Cars? well here's news for you - thousands of people have complained about iRacing and yet I and thousands more still play it but I wouldn't go holding it up and a perfect example of what grip levels should be not when you are still playing tyre model roulette with whatever model they decide to release this month and it hasn't been dubbed 'iceracing' by some racers for no reason either. iRacing, PCars, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2 all have their different 'takes' on what is the correct way to model a tyre and the grip it has but I still play them all for what they offer. We're enjoying a glorious period of racing game development not so long ago everything seemed to be based on gMotor and it started to get a bit stale, fast forward a few years and we've got a number of different teams each with their own engine all pushing the genre forward in their own way. This isn't a time for us to bicker and try and run one sim into the ground, enjoy it.

ONT
29-06-2015, 15:41
Perhaps things are better with their latest tire model(s), stopped somewhere in 2014, the low speed spins irked me. Anyway I guess in the end it all comes down to preferences and even perception.
So let's end it here, before we get in a mud slinging match :P

It's a lot better :cool:

And no sim is perfect, but there is a lot to emulate from the MP format in iRacing, other parts not so much (crowd animation comes to mind lol).


em·u·late
verb
match or surpass (a person or achievement), typically by imitation.

Mr.Smoke
29-06-2015, 15:49
209986
209987

Thousands complain about Project Cars? well here's news for you - thousands of people have complained about iRacing and yet I and thousands more still play it but I wouldn't go holding it up and a perfect example of what grip levels should be not when you are still playing tyre model roulette with whatever model they decide to release this month and it hasn't been dubbed 'iceracing' by some racers for no reason either. iRacing, PCars, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2 all have their different 'takes' on what is the correct way to model a tyre and the grip it has but I still play them all for what they offer. We're enjoying a glorious period of racing game development not so long ago everything seemed to be based on gMotor and it started to get a bit stale, fast forward a few years and we've got a number of different teams each with their own engine all pushing the genre forward in their own way. This isn't a time for us to bicker and try and run one sim into the ground, enjoy it.

Thats some amazing detail in pit lane. Damn!!

I agree 100%

This happens across all genres of games unfortunately, not just racing. The entire gaming industry is progressing at an amazing rate & needs proper appreciation from gamers. All the negativity is bad for everyone.

Umer Ahmad
29-06-2015, 15:53
I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as useful as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:
I dont reallycare what the best SIM-RACERS use. How about ACTUAL RACERS!

The Rene Rast Story
-----------------------

(Remco, please correct any of my error omissions)

Rene (was Audi Factory GT driver and got promoted to LMP1 team this year) was some kind of test partner for Fanatec. Somehow during discussions with Fanatec he comes across Project CARS i think in 2012. Fanatec mentions to him it is a new simulator still in early stages being built by SMS. Rene contacts SMS for an account/trial-copy. RENE CONTACTS SMS DIRECTLY (remember the direction of communication!). Basically Rene is impressed with the game and begin using it for his at-home training, posting a series of his training videos on youtube including LeMans. Here is an example, remember Rene has driven this EXACT car/track combination in real life (not sure the real racing history of these SIM-racers)


http://youtu.be/HCU0z25Gzto

Remember the OFFICIAL "physics consultants" are Ben Collins and Nic Hamilton. Rene approached SMS.

Ian/SMS have been very serious in their use of these real life racers in their physics modeling (yeah i dont mean some car floating bug, i mean the behavior on track when it's all functioning properly. The notes from these consultants have been publicly published at WMDportal, good reading)

ONT
29-06-2015, 15:57
The more RL racers from any level of racing involved in pCARS the better :cool:

I hope we see sponsoring programs for RL amateur racers
and RL track events for pCARS racers in the future.

Umer Ahmad
29-06-2015, 15:58
This is a very good point here. I much prefer the ethos that the FFB comes direct from the physics model without any 'canned' effects. However the reality of this design choice is that pCars has quite a 'dead' feeling wheel compared to other sims. Other sims may use fake effects in their FFB to achieve their road feel, but it does 'work' to give you an alive wheel.

In pCars I have driven at 170mph and had absolutely nothing coming back through the wheel. Even after much tweaking (jack spade tweakers, dead zone removal etc) this is still the case.

I would suggest that perhaps pCars needs to introduce some engine/chassis vibration into the system, so it's not just the tyre model feeding the FFB? In reality we would feel the engine shake through the steering wheel (and seat!). Or perhaps they need to improve the non-laser scanned tracks by applying a 'noise filter' to the 3d surface so there is more natural road vibration coming through the tyres?

I'm hoping for further improvements in pCars for FFB.
Yes, you will not see me argue about "better" etc.

But if someone advances the argument about AC FFB proves they have better physics i will stop them right there as the AC FFB includes non-physical tyre (!) effects. Non-physical TYRE effects. Think about it.

ONT
29-06-2015, 16:12
For all that don't know what AC stands for ASSETTO CORSA a PC sim from KUNOS ITALY.

They made an older sim netKar PRO, fantastic IMHO

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 16:14
For all that don't know what AC stands for ASSETTO CORSA a PC sim from KUNOS ITALY.

They made an older sim netKar PRO, fantastic IMHO

Soon to be a console port....

Panopticism
29-06-2015, 16:30
The car handling is great. Very real when you get your wheel set up properly. I recently realized just how accurate the grip-slip-regrip tire physics are.

No sim can replicate g-forces, so there will always be that limitation, and it is a pretty major difference to drive a fast, sharp, stiff car on a race track and not receive any physical abuse to your spine, pelvis, neck, core, etc. Sort of like how a pitcher's velocity and accuracy will drop off as they fatigue, it eventually gets very difficult to sit still and feel even remotely comfortable in a race car. It becomes almost impossible to resist being pushed around in the seat by g-forces. You'll probably know this if you've done track days, because most people cannot keep their bum planted in the seat in the corners for their first track days, and find themselves being thrown around a lot more than they had expected. You may have also strained some muscles you didn't even know you had?

I think there are two main areas that people forget about when it comes to sim vs. reality.

The first is the management of risk. People will drive the most realistic simulator by using the most unrealistic and unsustainable driving techniques. You focus on going mach 17 through the technical section at Bathurst, maybe tapping the inside and outside walls half the time, barely a lift off to scrub speed, etc. Maybe you hit the tight chicane at Zolder without slowing down very much and by literally becoming airborne as you hit the kerbs. Or maybe you swing out so wide on turn 11 at Spa that you're technically in Andrimont.. you get the point. When you're not afraid of taking responsibility for the equivalent of years worth of your own salary in damages, or sustaining serious and life-threatening injury, or even just having your tires last more than 3 laps, you don't have to worry about realism at all.

From there you end up developing setups that would give a race engineer stress diarrhea, just so that you can get away with driving like the love child of Cole Trickle and Andrea de Cesaris(RIP) for a few laps.

The second is damage. Damage models are, I have to assume, extremely demanding to render. Like, insane. Imagine having to simulate a car's performance after it hit wall x at x km/h at an angle of x degrees and body panel x was dented or broken at point x, x centimetres from the right headlight which threw the right headlight out of alignment by x degrees and affected a narrowing of the right brake duct by a diameter of x, resulting in a reduction of right-front brake disc cooling of x degrees at x km/h in an ambient air temperature of x degrees even though the ambient temperature in the present scenario is x degrees, leading to the overheating of only one brake disc, and thus brake fade and unequal left to right braking force in the front and blah blah. Since I would rather not damage the car at all, I am happy with a simplified damage model if it means that the game and hardware performance is being spent on simulating a race car on the race track with no damage. There are sacrifices that need to be made.

Let's try not to confuse the question "how realistic is Project CARS?" with the question "which racing simulator is better?" If you want to compare the handling physics, it is my opinion that Assetto Corsa's is way too forgiving, and iRacing's is pretty damn good but has some really weird tendencies.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 16:32
I dont reallycare what the best SIM-RACERS use. How about ACTUAL RACERS!

The Rene Rast Story
.....


Regarding Rene story, the basic principle why he could prefer pCars over other sims for practicing could be the obvious reason - tracks/cars availability for what he actually needs to practice. That doesn't imply anything about pCars being better or worse regarding physics than x or y sim, unless he actually commented on that. Real drivers saying that "pCars" is "good" is "very accurate" doesn't say anything objective. Other real racers are saying that another "x" sim is very good. So which one is "good"? Both, in a different ways, but such comments cannot be taken as a evidence until there is an objective comparison for particular features/parts of simulation.

The content availability might matter a lot. Practicing with a car which is 95% accurate compared to real life performance could be a better "practice tool" than driving totally different class car (which you don't drive in real life) but has 99% accurate physics (numbers are just for example). Also as I understand practicing in sims is more about track learning and basic principles instead of "uber" accurate physics, because you still won't be able to get the same feel sitting behind the screen and even the best physics model won't provide the same experience for the obvious reasons (input tools, outputs such as vibrations, Gforces, visual representation/delay, input delay and etc).

In short Rene "story" is more of a PR and not an evidence of "best physics" unless more details (if there is any) can be provided to that story.

Steam
29-06-2015, 16:58
As realistic as this.

http://i.imgur.com/QDQip.gif

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 17:03
In short Rene "story" is more of a PR and not an evidence of "best physics" unless more details (if there is any) can be provided to that story.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q9QCfHgyX0

209990

Edit: The actually more important video:


http://youtu.be/4pPycT9VjNU

209991

e15f
29-06-2015, 17:03
I think the fact this is out on consoles and the "masses" can play, pisses of some of the sim guys off im honest ;)

Panopticism
29-06-2015, 17:12
In short Rene "story" is more of a PR and not an evidence of "best physics" unless more details (if there is any) can be provided to that story.

Maybe... but only maybe. You make some very loaded presuppositions, and this conclusion would only be supported by someone who already agrees to the truth of your presuppositions.

To say that it was "more of a PR"(as opposed to a genuine interest on his part) is a lofty claim, which you haven't sufficiently supported. Ideally, you would want to demonstrate that his interest in Project CARS was not based on an interest in the physics, driving experience, etc.


I think the fact this is out on consoles and the "masses" can play, pisses of some of the sim guys off im honest ;)

Oh, definitely. Elitism is present. In reality, though, the console gamers are in some ways subsidizing those of us who play on PC.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 17:12
[/video]

209990
"feels" is nowhere close of constructive/objective feedback. "Feel" of what?..
Interestingly when I commented on one of the official pCars feedback consultants mentioning that some cars in pCars are too "forgiving", I received answer "they couldn't just take one point of view. They had balance the feedback from all of their handling consultants, as well as the WMD community." The same applies here, just take into account that real drivers outside of WMD or development team also has a POV and not necessary the same.



To say that it was "more of a PR"(as opposed to a genuine interest on his part) is a lofty claim, which you haven't sufficiently supported. Ideally, you would want to demonstrate that his interest in Project CARS was not based on an interest in the physics, driving experience, etc.

I am not saying that PR is of Renes interest, but providing his story as evidence to support claims for realism of the sim is vague at best.

People who are providing negative feedback regarding pCars are asked to provide constructive feedback. It should work both ways. People who are selling the game will have to provide constructive/detailed feedback/edidence why it's the best sim if there is an interest to sell this sim to a more "critical" public. Videos/comments like that won't work. Quantitative data is needed. Of course one can say that it's not my business to whom the game is marketed for and I do agree.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 17:53
"feels" is nowhere close of constructive/objective feedback. "Feel" of what?..
Interestingly when I commented on one of the official pCars feedback consultants mentioning that some cars in pCars are too "forgiving", I received answer "they couldn't just take one point of view. They had balance the feedback from all of their handling consultants, as well as the WMD community." The same applies here, just take into account that real drivers outside of WMD or development team also has a POV and not necessary the same.

I am not saying that PR is of Renes interest, but providing his story as evidence to support claims for realism of the sim is vague at best.

People who are providing negative feedback regarding pCars are asked to provide constructive feedback. It should work both ways. People who are selling the game will have to provide constructive/detailed feedback/edidence why it's the best sim if there is an interest to sell this sim to a more "critical" public. Videos/comments like that won't work. Quantitative data is needed. Of course one can say that it's not my business to whom the game is marketed for and I do agree.

Did you also read the second comment I posted?

I don't know where that PR thing comes from but Rene isn't pais by SMS. Neither for handling feedback and nor for proposing the game.

Panopticism
29-06-2015, 17:54
"feels" is nowhere close of constructive/objective feedback. "Feel" of what?..

People who are providing negative feedback regarding pCars are asked to provide constructive feedback. It should work both ways. People who are selling the game will have to provide constructive/detailed feedback/edidence why it's the best sim if there is an interest to sell this sim to a more "critical" public. Videos/comments like that won't work. Quantitative data is needed. Of course one can say that it's not my business to whom the game is marketed for and I do agree.

I get what you're saying. Good luck getting a racing driver to speak in quantitative data, though. I think your requirements are so strict as to pretty much preclude anyone but a computer and maybe a socially awkward engineer from providing valid positive feedback.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 17:58
Did you also read the second comment I posted?

I don't know where that PR thing comes from but Rene isn't pais by SMS. Neither for handling feedback and nor for proposing the game.
Yes, I did read.
But did you also read my response? And also other parts of the posts other than sentence with "PR". I am not implying that PR is Renes intention, but you providing his story here to support your claim works/looks like a PR.
Looking at Renes story I can take only thing - pCars is his best practice tool for his needs. That's all. Using it to claim realism of physics as general/definitive reference? No.


I get what you're saying. Good luck getting a racing driver to speak in quantitative data, though. I think your requirements are so strict as to pretty much preclude anyone but a computer and maybe a socially awkward engineer from providing valid positive feedback.
You are right about drivers not being able to speak in numbers, hence telemetry and engineering skills is a good tool for that. Also more details about how physics are made and what/how is simulated in pCars would be very interesting details. Words like "SETA" or "600Hz" doesn't really help.:)

Steam
29-06-2015, 18:10
The Stig opinion on pCARS:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX1PnHjyfcI

Panopticism
29-06-2015, 18:11
You are right about drivers not being able to speak in numbers, hence telemetry and engineering skills is a good tool for that. Also more details about how physics are made and what/how is simulated in pCars would be very interesting details. Words like "SETA" or "600Hz" doesn't really help.:)

Do you see how this is tantamount to saying that feedback from racing drivers regarding the quality and realism of a racing sim is invalid or at best unreliable?

I respect your opinion, but I think you have inflated the value of objectivity.

So much of racing on a track is precisely "feel". It's a lot more like a semi-improvisational dance than a lab experiment under strict conditions.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 18:14
Yes, I did read.
But did you also read my response? And also other parts of the posts other than sentence with "PR". I am not implying that PR is Renes intention, but you providing his story here to support your claim works looks like a PR.
Looking at Renes story I can take only thing - pCars is his best practice tool for his needs. That's all. Using it to claim realism of physics as general/definitive reference? No.

And yet you just commented on Rene's general post and not his more detailed one where he mentiones that he tried all the other sims. ;)


You are right about drivers not being able to speak in numbers, hence telemetry and engineering skills is a good tool for that. Also more details about how physics are made and what/how is simulated in pCars would be very interesting details. Words like "SETA" or "600Hz" doesn't really help.:)

Some more info on the tire model here: http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

Here's the complete feedback of the handling consultant during development: http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/project-cars-driver-feedback-compilation-available/

Also, here is some detailed, additional info from one of the physics devs: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?27185-GOOD-INFO-INSIDE!-tyre-wear (Look out for posts from Doug914 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?63-Doug914))

Finally a PCARS vs iRacing comparison by failrace:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeehdVqncSc

roadend1981
29-06-2015, 18:24
This game is 100% sim,not only that it's the best sim racer I have ever played! Lots of friends I know that have the game also agree!

Aldo Zampatti
29-06-2015, 18:25
The Stig opinion on pCARS:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX1PnHjyfcI


Well Him, Oli Webb and Nic Hamilton were (are¿?) handling consultants, so I strongly believe in their inputs and honesty, but people will say "SMS pays them to say the game is perfect", which is not the case, but otherwise, SMS payed them to know where the game sucked so it can be improved (and they accomplished that!!).

So I would show other's guys feedback instead, there were quite a LOT of pro drivers who approached SMS because they wanted to get involved or simply because they just wanted to train with Project CARS, nobody payed them a dime. So that's a feedback who trolls can not say is payed for :)

By the way, search for the Physics feedback being public a few months (maybe a year) ago, you'll see when Ben Collins was unhappy with something or some behavior and when he though SMS nailed it with something else. 100% honest

roadend1981
29-06-2015, 18:30
Always people gonna be bitter when a game comes out and destroys everything.There's always peeps that want to hate something they haven't got,or maybe just stubborn and have spent too much on games to buy another racing game.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 18:32
Do you see how this is tantamount to saying that feedback from racing drivers regarding the quality and realism of a racing sim is invalid or at best unreliable?.
Just to be clear, I didn't say nor imply that what you are putting here in my mouth.

This is what I commented on earlier and agree with:


I received answer "they couldn't just take one point of view. They had balance the feedback from all of their handling consultants, as well as the WMD community." The same applies here, just take into account that real drivers outside of WMD or development team also has a POV and not necessary the same.


And yet you just commented on Rene's general post and not his more detailed one where he mentiones that he tried all the other sims. ;)


I read that part. He didn't mention why didn't like other sims. He mentioned that "the feeling how the car turns moves etc is the closest compared to a real race car". Questions like "which car", "what conditions" arises from that. Also don't disregard his last but not least sentence about personal opinion, I think it is very important. :)

Also I have read "official pCars consultant feedback" but not every of the page of course, that is interesting data. There are many instances where handling is considered very good and in some cases not that much. This feedback is actually much more interesting and relevant than the story of Rene.

I have read the "tyre wear" topic and also details about "seta".

Regarding Stig video, he compares pCars to Forza, GT and some other old sims. There is no doubt that pCars is better than those.:)
He also mentions that tracks are accurate (most likely comparing to those mentioned above games) which is not the case when compared to AC or iRacing all laser scanned tracks.

I am not saying that pCars is not realistic or not a sim. I am saying that there are areas there other sims do better, while at the same time pCars does better in other. I can't stand the elitist definitive choice when it comes to the "one best sim".

ONT
29-06-2015, 18:56
I think it's clear to everyone that pCARS in current state is not superior to all other sims in every regard :cool:

Seriously You have to be deaf dumb and blind to claim that lol.

Still with a few more patches it could be a serious contender.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 19:03
I think it's clear to everyone that pCARS in current state is not superior to all other sims in every regard :cool:


Nobody is claiming that here.

Rebeka Sim
29-06-2015, 19:18
1) The best iRacing sim drivers are not necessarily the best sim drivers and this is irrelevant to topic how realistic is pCars?

Exactly. If I were not an iRacer I would have never heard of any of those guys. When iRacing first appeared it was original and offered a live racing model that has yet to be matched. This attracted many people early on and although the physics, handling, tire model etc. was horrible, many people stuck with it knowing it could only get better from there. I don't blame them, the online racing aspect of iRacing is still the best you will find. These 'sim racers' learned to control the cars the same way you learn to master Pac-Man. Its a game and with unlimited practice and no risk of injury, mastering it was only a matter of time. It was pounded into their brains that with laser scanned tracks blah blah that they were experiencing the most realistic sim in the world. So when they mastered the game they convinced themselves that they have learned what it is REALLY like to control a real race-car. Now, patches started coming out with improvements to various areas of the game. So you now have people (gamers) that have mastered almost uncontrollable cars being given a better handling version, even if only the slightest, of what they have been used to. They adjust and get faster and swear they are really learning to drive a race-car!
Over the years many improvements have been made and those of us with real life racing experience were run off the forums for discussing the improvements and the difference between real driving and iRacing. I almost gave up. I would come back from time to time trying my hardest to learn to drive these cars and failed repeatedly. I really wanted to figure it out, iRacings online racing format was incredible and I really wanted to be a part of it. One day I figured it out. I decided to load up iRacing and treat it as a GAME, not like I am really driving. Bam! I got it. I am getting good and winning races. I start to enjoy iRacing! After each improvement, after each NTM, I was enjoying it more and more, telling myself that they are getting closer to the real thing. Eventually I forgot what got me to this point and I just kept joining races and having a great time. I was still not racing, I was gaming.

Now comes Project Cars. Spent plenty of time setting everything up. Taking advice from these forums and started racing. I noticed very quickly that I felt like I was in the car. I felt like I was really driving. I finally found the sim that feels like the real thing! Now is Project Cars perfect? Of course not but when I am in my rig racing in Project Cars, I FEEL like I am driving a car much more so then when playing iRacing. Is PC more realistic? I have no idea. All I know is the feeling of driving a car is much greater. Now if they could just get something like iRacing has with multiplayer.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 19:21
Regarding WMD and consultants feedback. Was/is it used to adjust the physics(handling) of the cars? Or more for testing/feedback purposes?


Nobody is claiming that here.
There are people claiming/saying/thinking that is its the most realistic one, like with most other sims, but at least some emphasize that it's their opinion.:D

ONT
29-06-2015, 19:28
Regarding WMD and consultants feedback. Was/is it used to adjust the physics(handling) of the cars? Or more for testing/feedback purposes?

Extensively used to tweek physics, espesially different tire versions.


Sample from old build report by Ben Collins 13-01-2015, 07:33

PCARS

Build 895 – track Imola

Free practise & time trial

Testing the Oreca Nissan over long distance, and re-visiting the Formula A

ORECA NISSAN

I tested this car at the end of last year and at Bathurst it felt a little unstable over some of the crests in the surface. A lot of that normalized at Imola but I’ll start with some general comments.

Overall: the car still feels too soft and lazy for me. I punched the FFB up to maximum and the heavier wheel felt better for me, but the turn in roll oversteer remains a feature of this LMP2 and it does make for some hair raising moments at times. If you read on you will see how I’ve cleverly blamed the car for my own personal shortcomings.. Also, I managed to run the brake bias at 65% and this prevented the car from spinning whilst steering and braking at the same time.

At Imola the nose of the car darts into the corner really well, but there’s then quite a risk of over rotation as you enter the low speed and medium speed corners.

Driving Style – I have to really concentrate in the LMP2 Sim because it’s easy to overcook it if you’re not very sensitive to the rotation, and equally the loss of braking during a lockup is punitive – and rightly so. One major credit to the LMP is the feedback it gives you via the wheel when you lock a tyre whilst steering, the wheel goes light and it’s absolutely superb.

The “Long” Run..

THE FIRST 3 LAPS

In real life what you get with these cars is a golden window of 2 or 3 laps when the tyres are brand new (“stickers”) and you can get away with late braking and dragging the car into corners by the scruff of the neck. You should produce the best lap time at this point, irrespective of the full tank of fuel. If you have a soft tyre then the lap time comes on lap 1 & 2.

After those 3 laps the tyres behave less like superheroes and normalize with a slightly softer feel, a little more roll, a fraction less bite on the brakes etc. Then, at the end of your stint when the fuel (and its weight) have burned off, you get a chance to post some quicker lap times again.

Straight out of the pit lane on the Sim, I found it really quite tricky to get into a rhythm. I am fairly sure that I was overdriving the car, expecting more bite under braking than it could give me, and leaning a fraction too heavy on the throttle coming out of the corners. This made me question whether the Sim had given me cold tyres!!

On reflection, and having started 3 long stints in the LMP, I believe that I’m right in saying it’s my driving style as well as something in the Sim, but I need Casey to confirm whether I made the last point up. It’s really engrained in me to push when the tyres are new, and as a result my opening laps on all 3 of my stints were tarnished with lock ups and near misses. My conclusion was that the tyres, when new, needed more grip.

LAP 3 – 10

I settled into the groove and carefully inched towards the limit. The car was extremely rewarding and I dialed into its needs on corner entry, the limits of braking, and the serious drop off in grip at times over bumps at high speed. That’s why I test at Imola! This was a happy time.

LAPS 10-20

I continued to hone my lap times and found a limit that felt uncomfortable at the 1min 43 sec mark, so I held back by about 1 second a lap to avoid crashing the thing and ruining my run.

LAPS 20-30

Being honest, I was unable to detect any degradation across my stint to this point. I was grateful of that too because the oversteer I did have was worrisome at times.

LAP 35 – heavy contact with the wall leading to my premature return to pit lane.

Being proud I had two more attempts and met the same fate before accepting my lack of talent and I will run the Sim again with damage off to see what happens after the full hour.

The point of posting at this stage, other than to berate myself for your amusement, was to see if Casey could set my mind at rest about the opening laps.

ALSO

– when I pitted I found that I had no option but to bolt on brand new tyres. Could we build in an option to select whether we change tyres or not?
– When the car is about to be released I also think the point of view should return to that of the driver, rather than the crew, and that at this stage you should hear the crew chief shout “go go go” rather than half way down the pit lane as we currently have it. This would then be v realistic
– I love the brand name of the tyres “MASCULIN” – it made me chuckle.

Conclusion:

At this stage I can’t place an opinion on the final few laps – but I feel there needs to be a bit more of a performance spike on brand new rubber – just a hint. And currently I feel that the tyres are fully operational at first.

With the LMP I think a little bit of balance tweaking is all we need to make the car feel more supported – I think the grip level is about right. When I explored the settings last year I ran out of adjustment so I think a little tweak on the tyre model is all it needs.

FORMULA A

The FA is amazing at braking and entering low speed corners, there’s tons of feel but crucially the car squirms in reaction to the brake without spinning. At Imola’s hairpin you really notice this and the car is an absolute joy.

But on traction and general cornering the grip level feels too high until the point of break away, then the grip falls off a cliff and you spin. If you drive to 95% of the cars potential it’s extremely easy to drive, too easy in places, but when you push it a little further and the grip gives way it’s all or nothing.

Last year I felt that the FB had a perfect balance in the CR2 Lo – because it allowed you to really push the boundaries and slide the car. To me the Formula A feels too easy, or when you push it’s just too hard to control. I think we need it to have more slip angle, and to allow the driver to feel it working underfoot.

FORMULA B

Repeating the above - the FB felt perfect just before Christmas.

I jumped into the FB today on its standard tyre and it felt like a higher grip level than the CR2 Lo, it behaved in a similar way to the FA in fact. I’m having trouble saving my settings and changing tyres for some reason, so have been unable to scroll from the Faretti to the Yiro tyre and assess which one is which. Hopefully this will be remedied by tomorrow.

OVERALL: for me it’s all about drivability on power. We sorted this on the Formula B and I hope this can translate to the FA.

hkraft300
29-06-2015, 19:30
You do realise our own perceptions of RL are all purely subjective interpretation of our senses by our brains?

Our judgement of the realism of a sim will also depend on the peripherals (periphery?) we are using to play.
For example In the previous gen consoles, one was able to drive the same car in NFS and GT/Forza, using a controller, and assess the behaviour and call it arcade/sim.

Now you can't really do the same to compare current gen sims like pCars, AC, rF2 etc because it's like watching a 4K movie on an iPhone 4/5 screen. To fully assess the nuances of the feedback, realism from the game, and complete immersion you need a VR setup with multiple rumble things on your cockpit a 7.1 surround and top spec wheel/pedal setup. Then try the different racing sims.
Even then your opinion will be somewhat invalid unless you've actually done some real life track time.

But what are the parameters we are judging by?
Graphics? Collision model? Damage effects? Pit animations? Grandstand crowd behaviour?
To me all of that is irrelevant to the physics model of how the car behaves on track. To me pCars with a controller feels as much a hardcore sim (because of how the cars feel and behave on track, physics tire model etc) as my experience of rFactor 1 in a 4-point rumble cockpit with surround headphones, wheel etc commercial sim league racing setup.
So when pCars throws in a bit of Random weather, mechanical failures and incompetent pit crew, it adds to the drama and unpredictability of a race. I love the engine failure aspect and find it more important than the damage model.
Add in all the GFX sound etc it's a very real experience.
No PC sim vet will deny rF as being a great sim.

David Wright
29-06-2015, 19:33
"feels" is nowhere close of constructive/objective feedback. "Feel" of what?..

I am not saying that PR is of Renes interest, but providing his story as evidence to support claims for realism of the sim is vague at best.

.

It is clearly far more than "feel"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCU0z25Gzto

If a professional racing driver uses a sim to practice then its not just about feel. Braking points, maximum speeds, cornering speeds etc have to right. But they have been right in most sims for years, and it is the "feel", especially at and beyond the limit, which is where sims are focused these days.

I like his approach though. He describes pCARs as the best sim in his opinion. He does not say AC or rFactor or iRacing are arcade or simcade, and he respects that others may have a different opinion. And evaluating a sim is broader than just the physics/driving experience. On-line racing and AI are important for many sim racers and other sims may offer better AI or on-line racing.

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 19:34
There are people claiming/saying/thinking that is its the most realistic one, like with most other sims, but at least some emphasize that it's their opinion.:D

The important part of the quote I commented was the last one:


I think it's clear to everyone that pCARS in current state is not superior to all other sims in every regard :cool:


;)

unknwn
29-06-2015, 19:40
The important part of the quote I commented was the last one:


Which I didn't miss. I thought the topic was about realism of pCars and not about it being best in every regard, isn't it?;)


Extensively used to tweek physics, espesially different tire versions.
This is where I see a possible flaw - hardware used for testing. For example: one user has G27 wheel and screen with 50ms input lag, another uses powerful/accurate DD wheel with 5ms input lag screen. Which one will have more troubles balancing the car the the limit/4 wheel slide? I think the answer is clear.
For example iRacing DD wheel users are giving impressions like "omg, DD wheels are fast enough to self correct the car in time" or "i can control slides now". This is not to say that iRacing is better or worse, but to emphasize how dramatic the difference can be when used a wheel which is accurate and fast enough to turn in time compared to real car. If the wheel is capable to turn only 300degrees in particular very short time period where according to real life car the wheel should have turned 600 degrees will most likely result in loss of control if the user didn't manage to turn the wheel that much manually which is unlikely.
For example if majority of the testers used non DD wheels the end result could be flawed in a way to make the cars more forgiving to adjust the handling feel for the hardware used. End result could be very good illusion of car handling with particular gear but not the ultimate accuracy of physics even if the initial model is very accurate.

Mahjik
29-06-2015, 19:53
Anyway, back to the Ben Collins testing and where he says last time the ffb was about perfect, can we have that ffb please. Cheers

Who says you don't have it. ;) Maybe you don't like what Ben likes.. :)

unknwn
29-06-2015, 19:53
Who says you don't have it. ;) Maybe you don't like what Ben likes.. :)
I wonder what Ben thinks of heavy clipping after 1.4 patch.;)

bodyshop
29-06-2015, 19:54
Ben thinks what SMS pays him too...

Mahjik
29-06-2015, 19:55
For example if majority of the testers used non DD wheels the end result could be flawed in a way to make the cars more forgiving to adjust the handling feel for the hardware used. End result could be very good illusion of car handling with particular gear but not the ultimate accuracy of physics even if the initial model is very accurate.

Just FYI, SMS themselves had controllers from just about every current manufacturer available today. With that, there was a good amount of testing/feedback for most devices (obviously some of the new DD wheels came much later during development so there wasn't a lot of feedback in that space).

Bealdor
29-06-2015, 19:55
I wonder what Ben thinks of heavy clipping after 1.4 patch.;)

This is an acknowledged bug AFAIK. The current workaround is to reduce TF.

Mahjik
29-06-2015, 19:57
I wonder what Ben thinks of heavy clipping after 1.4 patch.;)

If he doesn't/didn't delete his profile he wouldn't notice it (depending on his wheel). Having said that, I doubt Ben has had much time for simulations recently since he's been racing quite a bit.

unknwn
29-06-2015, 19:57
Just FYI, SMS themselves had controllers from just about every current manufacturer available today. With that, there was a good amount of testing/feedback for most devices (obviously some of the new DD wheels came much later during development so there wasn't a lot of feedback in that space).
The same idea still applies if the the the handling is biased towards users feeling instead of numbers.:)


If he doesn't/didn't delete his profile he wouldn't notice it (depending on his wheel).
Glad I have my old profile. There are people who bought the game after 1.4 patch, I feel that their first impressions wouldn't be amazing because of this issue.:)

ONT
29-06-2015, 19:59
Anyway, back to the Ben Collins testing and where he says last time the ffb was about perfect, can we have that ffb please. Cheers

210015



And the answer is NO :cool:




But You can have another glimpse of Bens input.


Project Cars 31-01-2015, 10:48

Following the great progress on some of the favourites I’ve spent some time aboard the “Supers” to see how they are coming along, as well as a run the new version of the Go Kart. There’s progress but also some work to do that will make these babies really shine.

Mclaren 12c

Starting with the new plus points:

The Dive under braking is excellent, and the feeling under foot is superb as you approach threshold of locking up – I’m really impressed with it.

Traction and grip wise i don't think it's not too far away.. But..

STABILITY

The Body roll on the McLaren is excessive and the car is far too unstable in a straight line. The steering also has some issues - it shakes in the centre and wobbles from side to side which upsets the car even more.

To try and trim the steering I changed the FFB settings from 24 to 190 and although this hardened up the steering, which felt ok, the steering problem persisted. I probably went further than I should to truly reflect the McLaren which has a majestic light touch in real life. So there’s a steering issue.

Summary: the car lacks downforce in a straight line. At high speed the body should not be rolling so much and the roll, combined with lack of downforce, creates high speed instability. In RL the car has a beautiful response and rolls very slightly as you turn in – we have that response and SLIGHT PITCH with braking, and that is what we need to replicate during cornering / steering.

Currently the has real difficulty in being placed at high speed because the front tyres are skating OR the rear has rolled so much that you get oversteer. At high speed the downforce should be effective in pushing the tyres into the deck more and the car should be more responsive with less roll.

More of that below…

Pagani Huayra

It has less of the body roll than the 12C and there’s a more stable feel in general. That’s important for comparison and seeing how we can improve and shape both the McLaren and the Pagani

However I still sense that the rear of the car is “walking”. Let me break that down.

In a straight line as the speed goes up, the Pagani is short of downforce (like the Mclaren, but not as bad) and I’m surprised to sense a loss of steering and grip to place the car where I want to.

On the initial touch of the brake I also feel there’s a lack of downforce compared to real life at that speed and I have horrific lock ups. As the speed bleeds off and downforce reduces, I would be more accepting of locking up but I feel the car lacks aero support at high speed and the tyres are skating too much.

The steering has some of that centre wobble I refer to above with the McLaren, but far less. But on turn in I feel the rear wants to roll, and as I make my way through kinks and gentle curves I’m holding the wheel practically straight to anticipate the rear “walking” and rolling into the turn. In short I feel it needs more support – it needs to feel quite a lot stiffer.

That said – the dive under braking is superb and braking is super accurate. And the grip on traction is about right, especially at lower speeds. I don’t know how we do it, but is there a way to vary the grip with speed to give this car some support without giving it too much grip everywhere else..?

As with the McLaren – I find the pitch under braking really excellent and its that quality that we need during cornering – it’s partly a downforce / grip issue, and partly too much rolling.

Go Kart – 125 Shifter

I’ve got a Rotax Max 125cc, which is very similar to the shifter in most respects.. It’s for sale too BTW – I’ll have to give the Studio a commission for that shameless plug!

Anyway.

VISUALS: I tried moving the seat but I can’t get low enough to feel like I’m in the kart with my ass on the floor, I want the front tyres in my eyeline. I think it would be great if that was possible – and at the lowest point the view gets obscured by helmet or something black.

KERBS: They affect the kart and pull it WAY too much, causing a major imbalance and making it oversteer. It’s like running over superglue and being sucked in. You can destroy kerbs with these karts so I think it should be set more like what we have with the Formula cars which thwack kerbs perfectly.

General HANDLING & GRIP. I think the overall grip level is too high and it’s too hard to kick the tail out and powerslide out of corners, and drive the thing on the throttle, which is a trademark of 2-stroke karts (solid axle remember).

I think there’s too much grip for braking and on traction in particular, but I like the powerful response and grip in the steering during turn in. However, I sense too much roll (partly this is a visual dynamic as well as actual handling) and I’m not low enough in the screen to really feel connected.

If we can dial back on grip during braking to get more frantic lock ups, and likewise on acceleration so that we can scrabble out of corners, using the throttle to balance the car (ie pick up early to create understeer, or chuck the kart into the turn and stab at the gas to hold it slightly sideways on the way out) then we crack something special. I know we have the tools and desire!

I hope this is helpful and let’s see what you all think.

Stag
29-06-2015, 19:59
I've gone on most of them and non are as good as project ,graphics ,sounds or physics. Only the desperate multiplayer stops proj from a landslide victory IMO
IRACING is as expensive as a crack habit and a bit slow going .I like corsa but a lot seems to go wrong The cars might be better looking but scenery ain't as good as project .
I'm staying put

Roger Prynne
29-06-2015, 20:04
..........

bodyshop
29-06-2015, 20:06
Wow....no laughs in this place is there...

Mahjik
29-06-2015, 20:06
The same idea still applies if the the the handling is biased towards users feeling instead of numbers.:)

It's based on both... i.e. the cars are tuned to realistic driving behavior to get as close as possible with known real life values. After that, the FFB is adjusted to make best use of the car's steering geometry and convey what the car is or isn't doing to the driver. SMS never made the cars have unrealistic driving behaviors (i.e. corner at higher G's than the real car should be able to do with the same tires) to give the proper feel/sensation.

FFB is subjective, but the numbers of what the cars are doing are not and those were definitely scrutinized (hence why the telemetry apps were created).

Mad Al
29-06-2015, 20:07
..........

dumbstruck again Roger ;)

ONT
29-06-2015, 20:22
Totally OT I'm staying in a hotel right across from the Arlen Ness shop here in Pleasanton/Dublin CA.

I don't think he heard the expression "Chrome won't get You home" :cool:


210018


210019

TheReaper GT
29-06-2015, 20:27
NowStalgia auhahuahuahua I'm dead. auhahua Cyclics of a brick

cluck
29-06-2015, 21:43
I bought AC right at the end of the Steam sale. I bought it purely to see how it compared, with my own eyes, ears, feet and arms and not via other people's opinions. I went into it expecting big things, I went into it with my eyes and mind open, with no pre-set prejudice. These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone, based on my experience with AC.

My initial reaction to AC, apart from the dated graphics (well, they are the first thing you notice, before you do anything else) was "why is my steering wheel so damn heavy and why is it rattling harder than a charity collection tin outside a supermarket?". A dive into the settings, turn the FFB a long way down from the defaults and, hmmm, well at least my racing cockpit isn't shaking itself to death now but it's still a bit too hyper-active for my liking. Right, time to pull away again and do a nice test. Oops, missed the clutch biting point .... wait a second, why didn't the car stall, why is the engine still running? I check the menus. I check them again. I check them a 3rd, 4th and 5th time, nope, there's no way to turn this off, you can't stall the damn car. Oh well, maybe the fabled amazing audio will win me over. Oh dear. I was assured that the Alfa 4C was a lovely experience. If I had purchased this car in real life and it sounded like it does in AC, from the driving seat, I'd take the car right back to the dealer and be asking for my money back. Even my real-life Nissan 200, with a 3" straight-through exhaust (sans catalysts), wasn't this loud, not even close. Why can't I just have a more authentic 'cockpit' sound? I don't want to hear what the car sounds like 4" from the bloody exhaust, I want to hear what it sounds like from the cockpit, the place where I am supposed to be sat in this virtual world. OK, I'll live with it, onto the driving itself. Oh come on. What is going on with the tyre squeal? Start to turn the wheel a few degrees and my ears are deafened by a horribly basic tyre screech. Back to the menus and wind the volume way down (I do mean a long way down). Still far too bloody annoying for my liking (and nothing at all what driving a car with decent rubber sounds like) but I'll have to put up with it, as with the engine audio, for the driving experience. Off I go, into the first corner. Why am I facing the wrong way? Why did this rear wheel drive car just do a 180-degree spin at low speed just because I lifted my foot off the throttle going into this turn? No no no no no no no. Try again. Same result. That is not what I recall my 350hp RWD car doing, not even remotely close to it (and remember, the Nissan 200 is a car famed for it's over-steerey nature). I've been on 6 different race tracks in the UK with my old Nissan and the only time the car got upset was when I locked up braking into Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch (the brakes were brand new and the pads were ferociously bitey). Not once did the back end swap places with the front end because I lifted off the throttle going into a turn. Perhaps the tyres on these cars are just shit, that must be it, AC has fitted all the cars in the game with PingPong HedgeFinders XX.

And then there's the Oculus support. Or there would be if I could summon up enough care in the world to edit .ini files and re-arrange my monitor setup (which, because I have a 1920x1200 monitor and the Oculus is 1920x1080, means that my desktop icons will rearrange themselves). Why can't the OR just work without faffing about with .ini files?

In short :-

Can't stall the car
Tyre squeal is oppressive and, out of the box, is just incredibly annoyingly loud. It's akin to having a whiney teenage girl screaming in your ear how excited she is that the boy band she loves will be on TV tonight.
Canned FFB effects are far too pronounced in default mode. My racing cockpit was trying to shake itself apart. It's not even like I own a powerful wheel, I have a Logitech G25 for crying out loud.
Outdated graphics
Poor audio (or at least, what sounds like external audio playing whilst in the cockpit).
Poor Oculus support (it might be amazing in game but I'm never going to find out)
Interesting handling characteristics

I took away absolutely no positive thoughts from my hour or so with AC. None whatsoever. There are those that will say "give it more time", but that's like asking somebody who doesn't like the taste of manure to "just have another bowl, you'll grow to like it". I just don't want another bowl of manure, I don't want to spend another hour on AC. I play games to relax and have fun, not to sit through endless frustration and joyless experiences.

It seems that to be regarded as 'a sim', 'a sim' must fulfil a few criteria, all of which seem to suggest that to be a true sim, the sim must make you spend more time tinkering with it, to make it work, than you will actually spend driving a car in it. All of which can also be summed up with a nice analogy :-

Project CARS is like a modern hatchback. You get in the car, turn the key and everything just works. You might have bought a 'Friday lemon', but the dealer will soon set you straight. All those other 'so called true sims' are like a vintage classic. A proper pain in the arse to live with, forever needing fettling and more money spent on it to keep it running, but you'll defend that car to the day you die. Even though it makes you miserable every single time you try and start the engine and it just won't start. Oh, it will bring a smile to your face on those very rare occasions when the car works perfectly and there are no idiots on the road to spoil your day, but secretly, deep down, you wish you'd bought a hatchback instead.

I like Project CARS, I like it a lot. No other driving game - in the ~30 years I've been playing them on PC - has given me anywhere near the level of enjoyment I get out of Project CARS. And I used to love Microprose Grand Prix, even going so far as to complete 4 or 5 complete GP races over the course of a weekend.

Are all sims like AC? I don't know but if my time with AC is anything to go by, I really don't want to find out. I do know that, of all the driving games I've played, AC was by far the most frustrating and joyless. Project CARS is the complete opposite, it is the 'light' to AC's 'dark'. Project CARS makes me smile. It is not perfect (no game ever is), but I actually look forward to starting it and having a race against people around the world (even in random lobbies).

chig88
29-06-2015, 21:51
As realistic as this.

http://i.imgur.com/QDQip.gif

Excellent post.

I've only skimmed through this thread, so I have no idea what your post is in reference to, but it's a fantastic contribution regardless.

I salute you sir :)

Itothans
29-06-2015, 22:26
Wow what have I started.

Based on people's comments, when they say something is not a sim it's because some other game they are used to does something in a way that's perceived to be more realistic. These comparisons may be based on their life experiences but no one specified that.

Don't wanna add any fuel to the fire, but while people are focusing on how realistic iRacing is off-track no one seems to be focusing on how dull it is on track. I might be missing something here but I still don't know why iRacing is praised so much buy the community, other than cognitive dissonance because the experience costs so much. I may be completely wrong here, but I'm just basing this on the posts I've read so far.

It would be nice if people could add some logical reasoning to their views, other than just expressing their opinions as facts.

ONT
29-06-2015, 22:36
I might be missing something here but I still don't know why iRacing is praised so much buy the community,
other than cognitive dissonance because the experience costs so much.
I may be completely wrong here, but I'm just basing this on the posts I've read so far.

Yeah You're wrong :cool:

stux
29-06-2015, 22:51
I take it YOU dont use iRacing so coments like this is as useful as the BS about pCARS from non owners.

There is a reason the best sim racers in the world still uses iRacing (Greger Huttu,Ray Alfalla,Wyatt Gooden,Bastien Bartsch,etc etc etc) and it's not because it sucks :cool:

This is a poor argument when arguing what sim is the most realistic, it's essentially "The best iRacing drivers still use iRacing".

A better argument would be "real racing drivers prefer Pcars", because it is the better simulator of real race car handling (ie not crash physics).

At least that is the impression I get from reading Ben Collins test notes and other sources.

ONT
29-06-2015, 22:59
This is a poor argument when arguing what sim is the most realistic, it's essentially "The best iRacing drivers still use iRacing".

A better argument would be "real racing drivers prefer Pcars", because it is the better simulator of real race car handling (ie not crash physics).

At least that is the impression I get from reading Ben Collins test notes and other sources.


iRacing is not exactly lacking in RL racer input :cool:

http://www.iracing.com/testimonials/

TenthDan
29-06-2015, 23:25
What this thread does highlight is that WE DON'T KNOW :)

We're all guessing mostly at what is realistic. All current sims appear to me to be 'close enough' to convince different people depending on their expectations.

I've noticed multiple times that even real life drivers struggle with interpreting the virtual experience through a FFB wheel. Missing the G-Forces and fear doesn't help.

It also depends on how the driving is evaluated. Are we talking under the limit? All sims do that perfectly believably. Over the limit? Well then, there's some differences, but real world regular experience pushing a racing car over the limit isn't so common...

One thing is for sure, pCARS is realistic enough too. Ben Collins has as much experience as anyone under and over the limit and he finds pCARS extremely convincing (His favourites: FA/Lotus 98T, LMP2). Nic Hamilton gave extremely detailed feedback on tyre behaviour and helped fine tune the open wheelers and many other tyre compounds. Rene Rast helped with the Bac Mono, Oreca LMP2 and Audi GT3 I believe, and also seems quite happy with the handling.

There's no problem people describing their preference, until they start arguing that as factually more realistic without the evidence to back it, instead of just personal preference.

kingsti
29-06-2015, 23:34
Yes. I'm TOTALLY bored about these arguments between Sim and noSiM. It's doing my head in. Why can't people just play the game and enjoy it. If they don't like aspects, then raise it with the Devs and accept what the Dev experts say. If they still don't agree, then either carry on enjoying the bits they do like or move on. These ridiculous arguments about Sim and NoSim just go nowhere. The only true Sim I know is in my mobile phone :numbness:.

ONT
29-06-2015, 23:37
And on that note...don't bash other sims :cool:

Pick out what they do better in Your opinion, and try to improve pCARS in those departments.

pCARS is a unique platform with unprecedented access to DEVS and that is a beautiful thing.

TheReaper GT
29-06-2015, 23:39
And on that note...don't bash other sims :cool:

Pick out what they do better in Your opinion, and try to improve pCARS in those departments.

pCARS is a unique platform with unprecedented access to DEVS and that is a beautiful thing.

That's a wrap. :D

OperatorWay
29-06-2015, 23:43
It sounds reminiscent of a familiar one-sided script among many (or even most) game forums...



Post: "This game is great!"
Community: "Agreed! It is!"
...
Post: "This game isn't so great."
Community: "You don't speak for everyone. Stop posting your opinion as fact."



Post: "This game is better than other games in this genre!"
Community: "Yes! It's the undisputed champ!"
...
Post: "This game isn't better than another game in this genre."
Community: "Care to explain? You must provide courtroom-grade evidence to back any scrutiny."



Post: "This game is a lovely unicorn whose horn could use just a tad more sparkle!"
Community: "We welcome constructive criticism with every adoring stroke of the unicorn's glowing mane."
...
Post: "This game isn't perfect."
Community: "Grow up - nothing is ever perfect, so stop beating a dead horse & take your negativity elsewhere."



Post: "There must be something wrong with someone if they don't love this game!"
Community: "Haters gonna hate. They act so tough hiding behind a keyboard in their mom's basement."
...
Post: "There must be something wrong with someone if they violently defend this game."
Community: "Don't call us fanboys, you lunatic. Go back to your lonely pathetic life, loser."



Post: "Brothers, come to my aid! I'm a devout loyalist but there is a traitor in our midst who disagrees with me!"
Community: "Infidel flamed & warned/banned."
...
Post: "Help! I'm sharing an unpopular yet viable perspective but I'm being rudely attacked for it."
Community: "Mess with the bull, you get the horns."



Post: "This thread is going nowhere & should be closed/locked."
Community: "No, we're having fun ganging up & lynching dissenters. Where's your sense of humor?"
...
Post: "This thread has gone on too long & should be closed/locked."
Community: "Yes, after we get our stabs in, we get to have the last word: thread closed & users warned/banned."


•••


I'd like to remain on board with this game & its community for the long haul, and I sincerely hope that the leadership here helps steer the community in a more respectable direction. I'm sure we all aspire to higher standards and would like to see this game & community stand apart from the rest.

JonZ
30-06-2015, 00:11
^ it like this on every game titles forum typically. Seen the same pattern over AC and other games. It politics and religions, and some people are on crusade.

bmanic
30-06-2015, 00:44
.. it's also convenient how people keep posting buggy and weird situations that happen in pCars yet completely ignore the hundreds of videos of AC, iRacing, rF2, rF, GSCE etc. all having their own weird physics glitches.

There's some kind of weird sheep/herd mentality built in to us humans. We need to constantly quantify something by comparing it to something else.. and the drive to quantify that your own "chosen sim/game" is the best, by creating these kinds of threads, is absurdly high. A rather fascinating psychological phenomenon.

The even weirder part is that this kind of mentality is extremely prevalent among the various simulation communities. The very same mentality and hatred pretty much destroyed some of the flight sim community: both in the Falcon vs Flanker wars and now between Sturmovik vs the remake crowd. It's weird to see mostly grown men and women be so completely out of touch with reality and just go at it.

I mean, just have a casual read through reddit/r/simracing and you get brain cancer.

EDIT: .. as for answering the original post, that is giving my own opinion: Project CARS is definitely a fully fledged simulator. Is it without flaws in the physics? Hell no. It's way too forgiving in many situations where the car should suffer massive loss of control. Having said that, the tire model complexity is easily one of the most satisfying and thorough simulations ever created. It doesn't take much to realize this. The way you truly have to manage your tires and really optimize the slip angles to get a good compromise between laptime and overall race pace is on a completely different level than in any other sim to date.

I do think the chassis/suspension physics probably need quite a bit more work and aerodynamics are a bit suspect (but this is hard to know as we are not dealing with proper numbers for angles and such). I also think the tires were made too progressive and too forgiving in a way that they almost never get you into serious trouble after stupid moves. I don't think I've had a tank slapper in Project CARS since early 2014. It's as if the violent twisting and changing of direction of the carcass is missing.. everything is regripping way too progressively which means you can anticipate the move happening. The self aligning torque through the FFB is also so enormously helpful that you can truly "read" what the car is doing and thus avoid these situations easily. This is probably not a bad thing per say but I do feel like it's too easy. I can swerve the cars around at speed in a way that should result in a tank slapper.. but doesn't.

So in short: Yes, project CARS is definitely a full simulation. It simulates more vehicle dynamic things than any of the competition but it's still far from a perfect representation of reality. A physically modeled piano can be exceptional on paper and it can be a ridiculously complex model.. yet not sound at all like a real piano. I feel like this is the situation for all of the car simulators on the market today. We are closer than ever to reality but we still have a long long long way to go.

KaolaKid
30-06-2015, 01:27
I recently picked the game up yesterday. Having gotten bored of GT6 and the Forza's. I jumped into entry level open wheel practice and was like WOW!!!! Racing for 10 minutes and I was still OMG WOW!!! After a few more laps I took a break. My girlfriend asked me how is it..... I said. ... WOWWWW!! Despite the variety of tracks, great graphics and sounds, and a good AI, it's the most intense racing game I've ever played... Hands down! Is said... "Doll, this is no joke.m this is like Life and Death stuff here LOL... It REALLY feels like racing. Competitive racing ! It's incredible. It's not perfect. So far, I haven't gotten a game that is perfect, because I'm not rich enough to have a video game written from scratch specifically to meet my tastes. I've learned not to expect too much from any game. To enjoy it for what it is and does have to offer. instead of comparing it to other games. Tried "the crew" for 5 hours, and traded it in. Not for me... Horizon 2 , very fun game to PLAy... But it is PLAYING...
Project Cars isn't playing.... This is Life and Death Shtuff guys! LOL. Very intense. I think the boys at Polyphony better get back to working hard if they think they can compete with this.
Love the game !

Spazzmavrik
30-06-2015, 01:43
Its tough to hit everything dead on for everyone, and a lot is preference. But coming from racing karts and stockcars, I can say that I am more than pleased with this game! I spent $1000 on the TX and all addons (built a rig too) because this is the closest I can come to the real thing! And, that is a lot cheaper than a car and hauler (not to mention there is no "reset" button in the real thing)!

TenthDan
30-06-2015, 02:21
This is probably not a bad thing per say but I do feel like it's too easy. I can swerve the cars around at speed in a way that should result in a tank slapper.. but doesn't.

This I find an interesting point worth further discussion.

How much competence does an 'experienced' virtual racer have in a variety of car types? A lot.

What's the real life equivalent? Ben Collins, Chris Harris, Walter Rohrl?

If our reflexes and abilities are 'good' should we be considered their virtual equal?

Given the lack of fear and g-forces impeding the experience, are we actually better than them in the virtual context?

If so, should it indeed actually be child's play (so to speak) to throw expensive road and racing cars around and control them with ease?

I think if you look at it this way, 'easier' being less realistic isn't so clear cut. You mention yourself, through the FFB you can easily feel the grip situation changing and control it because you are prepared and expect it and you have no true fear of 'getting it wrong.' The virtual tracks are far more consistent in surface so you won't find many 'unexpected bumps' to throw the car off. It's extremely predictable, given the ability to constantly practice the tracks and cars.

Drive a track and car you've never driven before, push to the absolute limit out of the block and then see if it's still entirely easy?

To be honest the people with real life experience appear to be mostly satisfied with the driving model in pCARS, it's the sim racers that have such varied opinions ;)

I think it's a very interesting discussion to continue, because it starts to put the virtual environment in better context of experience, rather than == real life...

ONT
30-06-2015, 03:10
EDIT: .. as for answering the original post, that is giving my own opinion: Project CARS is definitely a fully fledged simulator. Is it without flaws in the physics? Hell no. It's way too forgiving in many situations where the car should suffer massive loss of control. Having said that, the tire model complexity is easily one of the most satisfying and thorough simulations ever created. It doesn't take much to realize this. The way you truly have to manage your tires and really optimize the slip angles to get a good compromise between laptime and overall race pace is on a completely different level than in any other sim to date.

I do think the chassis/suspension physics probably need quite a bit more work and aerodynamics are a bit suspect (but this is hard to know as we are not dealing with proper numbers for angles and such). I also think the tires were made too progressive and too forgiving in a way that they almost never get you into serious trouble after stupid moves. I don't think I've had a tank slapper in Project CARS since early 2014. It's as if the violent twisting and changing of direction of the carcass is missing.. everything is regripping way too progressively which means you can anticipate the move happening. The self aligning torque through the FFB is also so enormously helpful that you can truly "read" what the car is doing and thus avoid these situations easily. This is probably not a bad thing per say but I do feel like it's too easy. I can swerve the cars around at speed in a way that should result in a tank slapper.. but doesn't.



There looks to be several areas where it is a little to easy in pCARS vs Real Life (disclaimer has not raced in pCARS after release, to much RL work).

Grass driving for one, You are not dropping 2 tires in the grass/gravel on the outside of a high speed turn without getting in some major trouble in RL,
and there is other areas.

But lets ponder this, sim racing lack the RL scare factor of injury,Gforce etc so I think some sim compensate by keeping You on edge with grip.

And a strict damage protocol to minimize unrealistic driving, driving over sausage at Zolder full speed etc etc etc

Good in my mind :cool:


I seriously doubt this type of curb cutting at 0.47 and 0.55 would work in RL without some serious damage to the front end of a race tuned car.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pM35RrpAcc&feature=youtu.be&t

OperatorWay
30-06-2015, 03:23
...I seriously doubt this type of curb cutting at 0.47 and 0.55 would work in RL without some serious damage to the front end of a race tuned car...

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/V8+Supercars+Hamilton+Practice+BYH861-ZcWWl.jpg

ONT
30-06-2015, 03:32
Now there is exceptions .....but they are the one in a million fluke racing incidents or You'r name is Dale Earnhardt.

Listen at 1.25 "Grass is like ice"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtPNfVeMUd4

stux
30-06-2015, 05:37
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/V8+Supercars+Hamilton+Practice+BYH861-ZcWWl.jpg

"Looks like you've sustained some aero damage... you better come in"

Beat Takeshi
30-06-2015, 05:44
Yes, you will not see me argue about "better" etc.

But if someone advances the argument about AC FFB proves they have better physics i will stop them right there as the AC FFB includes non-physical tyre (!) effects. Non-physical TYRE effects. Think about it.

You are no man of reason! Allahu Akbar :)

Beat Takeshi
30-06-2015, 05:47
Calling someone a fanboy is not the same as posting you opinion in a respectful discussion. Have a cool-off period.

Incompetent Mod smelly cheese!

Beat Takeshi
30-06-2015, 05:54
Can we stop the fanboy vs. hater "argumentation" please. This adds zero to the discussion. Thanks

Another tag-along no individual skills!

Bealdor
30-06-2015, 06:05
You are no man of reason! Allahu Akbar :)


Incompetent Mod smelly cheese!


Another tag-along no individual skills!

Hi Jubei2011 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/member.php?108094-Jubei2011)!

Next time you're out permanently and not just one week.

unknwn
30-06-2015, 06:14
What this thread does highlight is that WE DON'T KNOW :)

We're all guessing mostly at what is realistic. All current sims appear to me to be 'close enough' to convince different people depending on their expectations.

I've noticed multiple times that even real life drivers struggle with interpreting the virtual experience through a FFB wheel. Missing the G-Forces and fear doesn't help.

It also depends on how the driving is evaluated. Are we talking under the limit? All sims do that perfectly believably. Over the limit? Well then, there's some differences, but real world regular experience pushing a racing car over the limit isn't so common...

One thing is for sure, pCARS is realistic enough too. Ben Collins has as much experience as anyone under and over the limit and he finds pCARS extremely convincing (His favourites: FA/Lotus 98T, LMP2). Nic Hamilton gave extremely detailed feedback on tyre behaviour and helped fine tune the open wheelers and many other tyre compounds. Rene Rast helped with the Bac Mono, Oreca LMP2 and Audi GT3 I believe, and also seems quite happy with the handling.

There's no problem people describing their preference, until they start arguing that as factually more realistic without the evidence to back it, instead of just personal preference.
I agree with most of your post however I don't see why a few feedback consultants should be used as a reference for realism like its something special, especially considering that the feedback wasn't always that good regarding handling (which is perfectly normal as there is no perfect sim). There are plenty of drivers driving in other sims. There are many more confirmed pro race drivers using iRacing as a practice tool (most likely more than others combined). Yet this shouldn't be used a measure for realism.

bodyshop
30-06-2015, 06:27
It sounds reminiscent of a familiar one-sided script among many (or even most) game forums...



Post: "This game is great!"
Community: "Agreed! It is!"
...
Post: "This game isn't so great."
Community: "You don't speak for everyone. Stop posting your opinion as fact."



Post: "This game is better than other games in this genre!"
Community: "Yes! It's the undisputed champ!"
...
Post: "This game isn't better than another game in this genre."
Community: "Care to explain? You must provide courtroom-grade evidence to back any scrutiny."



Post: "This game is a lovely unicorn whose horn could use just a tad more sparkle!"
Community: "We welcome constructive criticism with every adoring stroke of the unicorn's glowing mane."
...
Post: "This game isn't perfect."
Community: "Grow up - nothing is ever perfect, so stop beating a dead horse & take your negativity elsewhere."



Post: "There must be something wrong with someone if they don't love this game!"
Community: "Haters gonna hate. They act so tough hiding behind a keyboard in their mom's basement."
...
Post: "There must be something wrong with someone if they violently defend this game."
Community: "Don't call us fanboys, you lunatic. Go back to your lonely pathetic life, loser."



Post: "Brothers, come to my aid! I'm a devout loyalist but there is a traitor in our midst who disagrees with me!"
Community: "Infidel flamed & warned/banned."
...
Post: "Help! I'm sharing an unpopular yet viable perspective but I'm being rudely attacked for it."
Community: "Mess with the bull, you get the horns."



Post: "This thread is going nowhere & should be closed/locked."
Community: "No, we're having fun ganging up & lynching dissenters. Where's your sense of humor?"
...
Post: "This thread has gone on too long & should be closed/locked."
Community: "Yes, after we get our stabs in, we get to have the last word: thread closed & users warned/banned."


•••


I'd like to remain on board with this game & its community for the long haul, and I sincerely hope that the leadership here helps steer the community in a more respectable direction. I'm sure we all aspire to higher standards and would like to see this game & community stand apart from the rest.

Just wanted to quote this...sums up EVERY SINGLE FORUM in the world.....fact..

TenthDan
30-06-2015, 07:05
I agree with most of your post however I don't see why a few feedback consultants should be used as a reference for realism like its something special, especially considering that the feedback wasn't always that good regarding handling (which is perfectly normal as there is no perfect sim). There are plenty of drivers driving in other sims. There are many more confirmed pro race drivers using iRacing as a practice tool (most likely more than others combined). Yet this shouldn't be used a measure for realism.

Sure, but my main point re: Ben and Nic is that their experience (well Ben's) is extensive over the limit and that they provided incredibly detailed feedback on many aspects of car and tyre behaviour, not just a 'yeah it's realistic' or similar broad comments.

unknwn
30-06-2015, 07:15
Sure, but my main point re: Ben and Nic is that their experience (well Ben's) is extensive over the limit and that they provided incredibly detailed feedback on many aspects of car and tyre behaviour, not just a 'yeah it's realistic' or similar broad comments.

I agree, there are many broad comments in topics like this. My point is that having real racing drivers to comment in more details on the sim isn't something locked just to pcars.

EvoM3
30-06-2015, 08:58
I have to disaggree here. I like iRacing, too, tbh. But what it "simulates" in those situations you name here, is over the top I think. Its just my opinion based on real life race coverages and what I can derive from those in comparison to the named situations in iRacing. I just feel its not quite spot on. Its too much of the "make the driver fear the boundary" video game approach, which may be valid to a certain extent. But if we talk about how close a racing title is to RL, I would say, iRacing is a bit over the top, whereas pC is not yet quite at the top when it comes to your examples.



I am also very sure, almost everyone here could drive a GT3 around a track easily. Fast when it comes to laptimes? That I really doubt, but not because its that hard to do from a piloting perspective, but because of the fear to break something or not being able to bear g-forces for longer times.

But thats all just my personal thoughts on that, so pls dont kill me :cool:

p.s.:
I am a fanboy btw when it comes to the community based dev/info approach of pC and what has been achieved so far with it....there is nothing similar around compared to it. I'll better not mention the communication concerning the tire model of iRacing in contrast....or PDs communication on bugs and fixes.....etc, etc.

As I keep saying it's not a criticism. iRacing is not accessible to the masses. I've done a heap of time on real tracks and I find the curve of iRacing too steep and frustrating at times, I'm not saying iRacing is better... maybe PCars gets the physics at the perfect blend but it's not a Sim.. as I say, you cannot drive a real car the way you do in PCars and go quick...

The tyre and grip physics are not accurate. Cars have a lot LESS grip when they slide than in PCars, if you go for a spin in real life, the car takes a long time to stop, it washes off speed slowly when you loop it, you will only ever know this when you have a lose at 100kph+ in real life... PCars doesnt give this sense of speed because if you have a spin at 100kph the car pulls up pretty quickly... if you have a lose at 100kph + in a real car, you are a passenger and you hang on till you either hit something or are lucky enough to come to a complete stop...

Edit - also, try and do a burnout in PCars - that is not how real cars behave.. many of the lower power cars wont even turn the tyres (E30 M3 for example) and if you can get it into a donut, many cars only spin one wheel.. this is not realistic and it is because PCars simulates too much grip when tyres break away... in real life, particularly on a soft compound slick, when it lets go, it lets go and you go from have plenty of grip to very little grip, the game goes not simulate this as well as iRacing does.

Bealdor
30-06-2015, 09:06
The tyre and grip physics are not accurate. Cars have a lot LESS grip when they slide than in PCars, if you go for a spin in real life, the car takes a long time to stop, it washes off speed slowly when you loop it, you will only ever know this when you have a lose at 100kph+ in real life... PCars doesnt give this sense of speed because if you have a spin at 100kph the car pulls up pretty quickly... if you have a lose at 100kph + in a real car, you are a passenger and you hang on till you either hit something or are lucky enough to come to a complete stop...

That may be true for your regular road car on street tires but most likely not on slicks. I'm not saying that PCARS simulates this aspect 100% correct but the unforgiving sudden rear slides/breakouts that other sims are showing are the part that most RL drivers find unrealistic.
PCARS' grip loss is more progressive than in other sims. Maybe it's a bit too progressive but personally I find this approach more realistic than the punishing grip loss behaviour that iRacing shows for example.

EvoM3
30-06-2015, 09:20
That may be true for your regular road car on street tires but most likely not on slicks. I'm not saying that PCARS simulates this aspect 100% correct but the unforgiving sudden rear slides/breakouts that other sims are showing are the part that most RL drivers find unrealistic.
PCARS' grip loss is more progressive than in other sims. Maybe it's a bit too progressive but personally I find this approach more realistic than the punishing grip loss behaviour that iRacing shows for example.

Actually the exact opposite to what you are saying is true. A road tyre is more flexible in that you can go between grip and sliding quite easily with control... a slick does not have the same grip properties and is less forgiving once you reach its limit... I can tell you this first hand from experience... when a slick tyre lets go, it lets go in a big way and you better be quick to correct it or you are going around in circles... and when you go around in circles, you are going for a ride with very little control.. if youre on the tarmac and the spin lets the wheels turn and they grip up, you might recover it.. if you are on the grass, you are a passenger and you will only stop when you hit something unless you have a lot of grass to play in...

The problem with simulators is that at their current level you cannot get the same feedback as a real car... in a real car you actually feel through the steering wheel and/or rear axle when you are at a level of grip.. it's not a sensation that FFB can provide, it's almost like a grinding feel or even a vibration that changes to let you know youre on the limit.. for that reason, I find it easier to drive a car fast in REAL LIFE than iRacing..

PCars is a good blend and the tarmac physics while you have traction are fairly accurate. The 'lost grip' physics on tarmac are not accurate.. and off track - honestly, if you have a spin in real life and you end up in the grass, it is like you are never going to stop, the car keeps sliding, sliding, sliding, sliding, sliding, thats in the dry... in the wet on slicks.... forget it.. you will stop when you hit something. The off-track tyre physics need to be quite honestly, 25% of the current grip levels in dry and 12% in wet.

EDIT - edited my grip %'s after thinking about it a bit more.

Bealdor
30-06-2015, 09:31
Actually the exact opposite to what you are saying is true. A road tyre is more flexible in that you can go between grip and sliding quite easily with control... a slick does not have the same grip properties and is less forgiving once you reach its limit... I can tell you this first hand from experience... when a slick tyre lets go, it lets go in a big way and you better be quick to correct it or you are going around in circles... and when you go around in circles, you are going for a ride with very little control.. if youre on the tarmac and the spin lets the wheels turn and they grip up, you might recover it.. if you are on the grass, you are a passenger and you will only stop when you hit something unless you have a lot of grass to play in...

I stand corrected, thanks.


The problem with simulators is that at their current level you cannot get the same feedback as a real car... in a real car you actually feel through the steering wheel and/or rear axle when you are at a level of grip.. it's not a sensation that FFB can provide, it's almost like a grinding feel or even a vibration that changes to let you know youre on the limit.. for that reason, I find it easier to drive a car fast in REAL LIFE than iRacing..

Agree, that's the biggest difference between virtual and real racing.


PCars is a good blend and the tarmac physics while you have traction are fairly accurate. The 'lost grip' physics on tarmac are not accurate.. and off track - honestly, if you have a spin in real life and you end up in the grass, it is like you are never going to stop, the car keeps sliding, sliding, sliding, sliding, sliding, thats in the dry... in the wet on slicks.... forget it.. you will stop when you hit something. The off-track tyre physics need to be quite honestly, 25% of the current grip levels in dry and 12% in wet.

Yes, I can also agree (and already did) that the off track physics should be improved in PCARS.

The only thing I disagree with you is your conclusion that PCARS is not a SIM because of this. But I think that's more a matter of personal priorities/preferences than hard numbers. :)

EvoM3
30-06-2015, 09:39
I stand corrected, thanks.



Agree, that's the biggest difference between virtual and real racing.



Yes, I can also agree (and already did) that the off track physics should be improved in PCARS.

The only thing I disagree with you is your conclusion that PCARS is not a SIM because of this. But I think that's more a matter of personal priorities/preferences than hard numbers. :)

Mate it's an amazing, benchmark game, it will change racing games forever... it's more FUN than every other racing car be it Sim or Arcade.. a few bugs make it a frustrating game occasionally but I dont need to say any more on this because it's clear that there is work on it...

For the record I personally prefer PCars to iRacing.. I still dont think it's Sim level yet, when the damage model and no-grip/off road tyre physics are udpated to ensure that people drive in a more realistic way, I believe it will earn it's status as a simulator.

SeeNoWeevil
30-06-2015, 10:12
I can't take anyone seriously who describes racing games on some arbitrary line of two points, arcade to sim. It's a nonsense that needs to stop. Has any racing game been released that hasn't been met with 'not a sim'?

bmanic
30-06-2015, 10:23
Nope.. it hasn't. And people who use the "it is not a sim" are obviously not using the word as it is intended. They constantly mix up accuracy with simulation. A completely inaccurate simulation is still a simulation if it tries to simulate things.

So yeah, people who use words like simcade to describe a game (not a word by the way) immediately drop at least 50 points of IQ from my point of view and I can't take them seriously.

JayRocVW
30-06-2015, 13:41
"Looks like you've sustained some aero damage... you better come in"

I seriously LOL when I read this!!

JeyD02
30-06-2015, 14:08
I seriously LOL when I read this!!

Whats so funny?

TheReaper GT
30-06-2015, 14:09
Whats so funny?

You need a break auhahu

Steam
30-06-2015, 14:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkyk-iuSWk0

robertedell
30-06-2015, 16:58
The problem with simulators is that at their current level you cannot get the same feedback as a real car... in a real car you actually feel through the steering wheel and/or rear axle when you are at a level of grip.. it's not a sensation that FFB can provide, it's almost like a grinding feel or even a vibration that changes to let you know youre on the limit.. for that reason, I find it easier to drive a car fast in REAL LIFE than iRacing..

EDIT - edited my grip %'s after thinking about it a bit more.

Yes I find it easier to drive a car fast in real life than iRacing too! Not only than I have heard many others including professional race car drivers say the same. I do not know why iRacing keeps being held up as the standard of what is realistic rather than real life?

I agree with you so far no sim gets it exactly right but this current generation of sims is better and closer to real life than ever and certainly better than the previous generation of sims.

AtomicSphincter
30-06-2015, 17:46
I've heard somewhere that the best simulators that race teams employ are only 97% accurate, and those are the best of the best.

Bealdor
30-06-2015, 17:49
I've heard somewhere that the best simulators that race teams employ are only 97% accurate, and those are the best of the best.

Or not: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31686-Car-Handling-Like-Driving-on-Ice&p=996730&viewfull=1#post996730

;)

TheReaper GT
30-06-2015, 17:49
One can't simulate real life, one can try though. As many said and I agree, all sims have good and bad points and the only benchmark for that, in my opinion, is the feedback of those who race for real. Even with that feedback things can go wrong, hence each driver will give his personal view for each aspect and they can be very diferent one from another.

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 19:52
when a slick tyre lets go, it lets go in a big way and you better be quick to correct it or you are going around in circles... and when you go around in circles, you are going for a ride with very little control.. if youre on the tarmac and the spin lets the wheels turn and they grip up, you might recover it.. if you are on the grass, you are a passenger and you will only stop when you hit something unless you have a lot of grass to play in...

I can't say they let go in a "big" way... They let go at a higher slip angle than street tires and provide much less audible feedback. But you can see from my video above, the car just didn't go away. Most slicks require a lot of slipping (large slip angles) to achieve good performance. Actually some of the sloppiest driving on Hoosiers will provide the best lap times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSCLIP9lmmE

Iwanchek
30-06-2015, 20:00
on a wheel it´s amazing (i thing) but on ps4 on a controller it´s hard to say...not very well in my opinion!

unknwn
30-06-2015, 20:10
I think the point Evo was trying to say is that most slicks have much higher peak in the grip curve vs slip angle when compared to road tire (which is more linear when going over optimal slip angle). High peak and steep drop means that overdoing slip angle will provide more distinct/sharp drop in grip which also means not correcting in time should provide more worrying result.
I have read that F1 slicks has optimal slip angle of around 6 degree which is much lower than road tires and other slicks (i.e much more responsive tyre).

bodyshop
30-06-2015, 20:13
How much is Call of Duty like real warzone?

They are games and as such you can get good at driving games as a gamer but it really means didly squat in real life. Both my brothers race at national level and the older one has never been a 'gamer' and he is useless on any racing games hes ever played on round mine, he just doesnt get games at all but i'm sure if he spent few weeks on them he'd work it out, as a GAME, like he could work out pac man etc...a G A M E..., the younger one is good at racing games,but not cause hes a race winner in real life but because hes gamed in his youth... but in truth you have to be a gamer to be any good on these racing games so what does that tell you.........

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 20:18
I think the point Evo was trying to say is that most slicks have much higher peak in the grip curve vs slip angle when compared to road tire (which is more linear when going over optimal slip angle). High peak and steep drop means that overdoing slip angle will provide more distinct/sharp drop in grip which also means not correcting in time should provide more worrying result.
I have read that F1 slicks has optimal slip angle of around 6 degree which is much lower than road tires and other slicks (i.e much more responsive tyre).

F1's and upper tier formula cars are completely different animals. They are very aero dependent and their tires are constructed around that behavior. Street/track cars are not as aero dependent and rely on mechanical grip much more and the tires are designed for that. Just because competition tires that all of use can buy are "slicks", they are not the same "slicks" used for professional racing (therefore comparing slip angles between them isn't useful).

unknwn
30-06-2015, 20:24
F1's and upper tier formula cars are completely different animals. They are very aero dependent and their tires are constructed around that behavior. Street/track cars are not as aero dependent and rely on mechanical grip much more and the tires are designed for that. Just because competition tires that all of use can buy are "slicks", they are not the same "slicks" used for professional racing (therefore comparing slip angles between them isn't useful).
Interestingly we should have many "animal" like tyres in pCars. Apparently we can drive F1 like formulas and other high end racing cars.

Most of the graphs which I can find shows similar results as this:
http://racingcardynamics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Post1.1Figure5.jpg

As you can see slicks provide much steeper curve which means sharper drop in "grip" when going over the optimal angle.
I understand that this is a generalization and there will be variations.
Road tyres should provide a wider "comfortable" window where average Joe is fast enough to react.

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 20:30
As you can see slicks provide much steeper curve which means sharper drop in grip when going over the optimal angle.

Sharper, yes.. Just "going away from the driver" like described in the quote I responded to, no.

unknwn
30-06-2015, 20:34
Sharper, yes.. Just "going away from the driver" like described in the quote I responded to, no.
The larger loads/speeds we provide the more brutal the effect of "going away from the driver" will be. Like I said before - example F1 or other high performance cars.
i.e. less time to react which is obvious.

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 20:43
The larger loads/speeds we provide the more brutal the effect of "going away from the driver" will be. Like I said before - example F1 or other high performance cars.
i.e. less time to react which is obvious.

Again, F1 is different. However, we are saying the same things. There is a sharper falloff with stickier tires. What I'm clarifying is that it's not so sharp that drivers cannot catch and control it. It just requires more listening (i.e. feeling what the car is doing and sensing the behavior) and knowing what to do when you need to do it.

unknwn
30-06-2015, 20:51
Again, F1 is different. However, we are saying the same things. There is a sharper falloff with stickier tires. What I'm clarifying is that it's not so sharp that drivers cannot catch and control it. It just requires more listening (i.e. feeling what the car is doing and sensing the behavior) and knowing what to do when you need to do it.
I think the issue here is the interpretation of words "going away from the driver".
Sliding is controllable, but after some point (depending on conditions) the controllability might be not enough to recover the car back to the line. I think the width of that "window" is being discussed/questioned by some people.

Some old gen tire models seem to provide no controllability after certain point/conditions during which small inputs results in no changes how the car moves. Not the presence of controllability but the amount of it is being questioned.

Robert Gerke
30-06-2015, 21:03
when we talk here for realistic, meanwhile others climb the standards!

DYNAMIC TRACK in 100% mathematic correctnes!

"Do you go on play your funny game, or come and simulate Real Motorsport?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4iOSRt8I

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 21:32
I think the issue here is the interpretation of words "going away from the driver".
Sliding is controllable, but after some point (depending on conditions) the controllability might be not enough to recover the car back to the line. I think the width of that "window" is being discussed/questioned by some people.

Modern slicks are pretty controllable at and just over the limit. Heck, I've seen some drifters use them in the past (but IIRC, they are no longer allowed in the drifting competitions but I don't follow drifting so they may be allowed). But yes, you have less room for error at that point than street tires. Wider range of error/warning, lower peak grip. Higher peak grip, lower range of error/warning).


Some old gen tire models seem to provide no controllability after certain point/conditions during which small inputs results in no changes how the car moves. Not the presence of controllability but the amount of it is being questioned.

Are you referring to the vintage tires?

GamingCanuck
30-06-2015, 21:38
when we talk here for realistic, meanwhile others climb the standards!

DYNAMIC TRACK in 100% mathematic correctnes!

"Do you go on play your funny game, or come and simulate Real Motorsport?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4iOSRt8I



Well, consider me impressed. Dynamic tracks are something iRacing has needed for a long time and this could put iRacing above everything else.

cluck
30-06-2015, 21:42
Project CARS already has dynamic tracks that build up grip over the course of a race. I don't know if it's 100% mathematically correct or not but the effect is there nonetheless. Not bad for "a funny game".

unknwn
30-06-2015, 21:53
Are you referring to the vintage tires?
Sorry for not being clear, I was reffering to some other old gen sims which can have very accurate tire modeling below limit but it "breaks" after some point/conditions and controllability is lost. But having controllability doesn't mean you will save the car if you already slide at high angle and the barrier is close... There are some weird cases in pcars where you can recover 90 angle slides and straighten the car.

Mahjik
30-06-2015, 22:51
Sorry for not being clear, I was reffering to some other old gen sims which can have very accurate tire modeling below limit but it "breaks" after some point/conditions and controllability is lost. But having controllability doesn't mean you will save the car if you already slide at high angle and the barrier is close... There are some weird cases in pcars where you can recover 90 angle slides and straighten the car.

Basically, this has to do with scrubbing speed. The some of the older tire models had basically two modes, low and high speed modes. The physics engine switches between them for the desired situation. What used to happen with those is that the model couldn't switch over to the mode it needed when it needed to during some of those "oops" moments.. This gave weird tank slappers where the car wouldn't scrub off speed to regain traction, it would just keep sliding until the car came to a complete stop and the physics reset its state.

pCARS doesn't have this "magic" point for tire physics so it's able to simulate scrubbing, which means it's possible to scrub off enough speed during an "oops" and regain traction. This does make pCARS a little easier to recover compared to some current and older sims, but that's not something that baked in unnaturally. It's a natural phenomenon that happens in real life.

Morgan Henstridge
30-06-2015, 23:01
Seeing all the behind the scenes development of the tyres, along with Ben Collins and Nic Hamiltons feedback was one of the most interesting parts of the project development for me.

I was always amazed at the subtleties they could pick up in the tyres in different stages of the corner. Things i would never have picked up on, but once you read about it and have a drive, its like Oh, yeah, i see what you are saying :)

unknwn
30-06-2015, 23:17
Basically, this has to do with scrubbing speed. The some of the older tire models had basically two modes, low and high speed modes. The physics engine switches between them for the desired situation. What used to happen with those is that the model couldn't switch over to the mode it needed when it needed to during some of those "oops" moments.. This gave weird tank slappers where the car wouldn't scrub off speed to regain traction, it would just keep sliding until the car came to a complete stop and the physics reset its state.

pCARS doesn't have this "magic" point for tire physics so it's able to simulate scrubbing, which means it's possible to scrub off enough speed during an "oops" and regain traction. This does make pCARS a little easier to recover compared to some current and older sims, but that's not something that baked in unnaturally. It's a natural phenomenon that happens in real life.

I do know about two stage tire model magic. The lack of it doesn't explain why some high angle slides are so easy to correct without spinning while providing sloppy inputs. I am saying high angle and not just control at the limit.
Interestingly in pcars in some cases you can just hold the wheel and the car will perform 4 wheel slide smoothly for a long distance without trying to spin. Its like cars almost don't want to spin, they just continue smooth 4wheel slide. Real life footage says otherwise, if you overdo and dont try to correct oversteer the car will most likely spin. Interestingly in pcars its easy to start sliding and it is controllable (as expected), but when you do start slide at high angles, they don't result in spins when uncorrected. I am yet to spin a car in pcars while overdoing trail braking. The rear steps out at slow pace and its easy to catch it or "keep it there" with relatively sloppy inputs. Real life footage shows a number of cases where mistakes while trail braking/weight transfer results in pretty much snap oversteer spins.

TenthDan
30-06-2015, 23:19
when we talk here for realistic, meanwhile others climb the standards!

DYNAMIC TRACK in 100% mathematic correctnes!

"Do you go on play your funny game, or come and simulate Real Motorsport?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4iOSRt8I

Not sure what your point is really.

pCARS has dynamic track, though not to that level.

100% mathematic correctness, hmm...

So how's the live track and dynamic weather and time of day going in iRacing right now? Thought so.

Please don't go posting this stuff just to cause trouble.

ONT
01-07-2015, 00:04
Did the rubber buildup on the track make it to the final game, and does it effect traction ?

Cool for OVAL racing if it did.

bmanic
01-07-2015, 00:05
DYNAMIC TRACK in 100% mathematic correctnes!


That gave me a good chuckle. The NTM 1.0 version was supposed to be the end-all/be-all tire model and we all know how well that turned out.

.. and people complain about SMS using hyperbole in their advertising. The dude in the video is using constant hyperbole.. ".. what's really going on at the molecular level of the track and tire". L O L!

stux
01-07-2015, 01:39
Did the rubber buildup on the track make it to the final game, and does it effect traction ?

Cool for OVAL racing if it did.

Believe it did yes, there were posts on this forum from Ian or other devs talking anout he track rubbering up, changing with the weather and marbles accumulating

rotorrian
01-07-2015, 05:39
You mean this sound :P


https://instagram.com/p/yxnHRaQVqZ/


Don't forget the sound, good God the sound of that game is amazing. When you listen to the SLS GT3 gearing down or the Capri's turbo announcing that warp speed is close, you feel so inside the experience.

Edit: the Bentley GT3 Bi-Turbo V8 got me all funny in the gentleman parts auhahua

k.merse
01-07-2015, 06:25
Maybe Asetto Corsa a bit more hardcore sim than PCars but I wouldn't be sure about that either. If you adjust everything to be realistic, PCars is the best sim currently out there.

hkraft300
01-07-2015, 07:16
^ well that's just it
In pCars you can set correct FOV, real assists etc all settings to be super realistic.
Or stick it on chase can with assists and whatever settings and play it all arcade like.

Do what you want with it.

Casual gamers can run amuck. Serious sim racers can get their league comps and Nomex on. Each to their own and it's great.
Those of you crying about pCars being arcade... If you think there's a better sim then stick to it. Why are you wasting your time here?

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 07:53
You mean this sound :P


https://instagram.com/p/yxnHRaQVqZ/

I hate you uhahuahuahuauh



Not really

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 08:00
^ well that's just it
In pCars you can set correct FOV, real assists etc all settings to be super realistic.
Or stick it on chase can with assists and whatever settings and play it all arcade like.

Do what you want with it.

Casual gamers can run amuck. Serious sim racers can get their league comps and Nomex on. Each to their own and it's great.
Those of you crying about pCars being arcade... If you think there's a better sim then stick to it. Why are you wasting your time here?

I Agree, to me Project Cars is a bridge that connects hardcore grease monkey sim racers and noobies trying to keep cars between the lines like me. My racing skills are 139417923641726341 times better now because of Project Cars. I mean, why not a game that can be set to fulfill the needs of the individual who bought it, regardless of the said individual being a casual gamer or a full sim adict?
One thing I've learned being the head of my own company is that the market is big in all areas and there's space for everybody, there's clients for everybody and there's no need to try make one look worse than the other.

Ian Bell
01-07-2015, 08:32
when we talk here for realistic, meanwhile others climb the standards!

DYNAMIC TRACK in 100% mathematic correctnes!

"Do you go on play your funny game, or come and simulate Real Motorsport?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4iOSRt8I

That was your last insult Robert. Bye.

Our dynamic track maths have been 100% mathematically correct for 8 years now.

blowfishrulez
01-07-2015, 08:38
When i look at the appaling backing for Reizas Funding Campaign (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/reiza-simracing-bonanza) i can only assume this:

- The fanbase in this sector of the market is is so small, it is completely irrelevant what their desires and opinions are
- The fanbase in this sector only consists only of cheap dudes that want everything for free
- The fanbase in this sector is completely content with what their favorite sim gives them already

In any case, it is not good to be stuck with such a fanbase, Kunos has discovered this too and is taking steps to break out of this smelly corner of the gaming market. And oh boy have they received flak for it...

Robert, i hope you have thrown in some bucks already to get Reiza to build the perfect, professional, mathematically correct sim for you. You certainly won't get it from SMS, iRacing, Kunos or ISI anytime soon.

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 08:45
When i look at the appaling backing for Reizas Funding Campaign (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/reiza-simracing-bonanza) i can only assume this:

- The fanbase in this sector of the market is is so small, it is completely irrelevant what their desires and opinions are
- The fanbase in this sector only consists only of cheap dudes that want everything for free
- The fanbase in this sector is completely content with what their favorite sim gives them already

In any case, it is not good to be stuck with such a fanbase, Kunos has discovered this too and is taking steps to break out of this smelly corner of the gaming market. And oh boy have they received flak for it...

Robert, i hope you have thrown in some bucks already to get Reiza to build the perfect, professional, mathematically correct sim for you. You certainly won't get it from SMS, iRacing, Kunos or ISI anytime soon.

I agree with you. Robert to me looks like that child that wants everything in time to catch the cartoons on tv. He is butt hurt because his "needs" of a TV studio quality broadcast feature wasn'n fullfiled in hours after his plead. Everytime I read that WE FIGHT part of his signature I just ignored anything he wrotes. I as he does, I can say, THOUSANDS just ignored him huahuuha

blowfishrulez
01-07-2015, 08:50
I agree with you. Robert to me looks like that child that wants everything in time to catch the cartoons on tv. He is butt hurt because his "needs" of a TV studio quality broadcast feature wasn'n fullfiled in hours after his plead. Everytime I read that WE FIGHT part of his signature I just ignored anything he wrotes. I as he does, I can say, THOUSANDS just ignored him huahuuha

Yeah, SMS was very generous with him in the past.

Deckard2019
01-07-2015, 09:04
One of my lads told me people getting banned on this forum for expressing their sincere opinion. I thought it was just a rumor reading this stuff in the entire net. I am very cautious when it comes to such assumptions! After reading all these biased nonsense, I would like to raise my hand and ask a simple question. Are you people living in the Twilight Zone? Physics and driving wise, Assetto Corsa is way more accurate! Especially when it comes to the suspension chassis response to weight transfer, inertia and mass comes through much more in the driving experience and overall behaviour. And this is the biggest flaw in the entire game! Project Cars has almost zero weight to the cars zero!. It really amuses me, how most of these people here trying to defend their holy game no matter how ridiculous it is :D
Just a good piece of advice to SMS, it is really not wise and clever in terms of marketing, to put such unqualified moderators here in the first place. Being objective in this matter and in regards to the net, it seems your reputation as a company is sinking on a daily basis. A little bit more professionalism would come in handy! To you super moderators jump back on your couch, grab your joypad and enjoy your console game!

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 09:06
One of my lads told me people getting banned on this forum for expressing their sincere opinion. I thought it was just a rumor reading this stuff in the entire net. I am very cautious when it comes to such assumptions! After reading all these biased nonsense, I would like to raise my hand and ask a simple question. Are you people living in the Twilight Zone? Physics and driving wise, Assetto Corsa is way more accurate! Especially when it comes to the suspension chassis response to weight transfer, inertia and mass comes through much more in the driving experience and overall behaviour. And this is the biggest flaw in the entire game! Project Cars has almost zero weight to the cars zero!. It really amuses me, how most of these people here trying to defend their holy game no matter how ridiculous it is :D
Just a good piece of advice to SMS, it is really not wise and clever in terms of marketing, to put such unqualified moderators here in the first place. Being objective in this matter and in regards to the net, it seems your reputation as a company is sinking on a daily basis. A little bit more professionalism would come in handy! To you super moderators jump back on your couch, grab your joypad and enjoy your console game!

One of your lads hu, I wonder who :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Looks like you and your lads think you are better than me because I play on a console... a bit judgemental to my taste, take

Ian Bell
01-07-2015, 09:07
One of my lads told me people getting banned on this forum for expressing their sincere opinion. I thought it was just a rumor reading this stuff in the entire net. I am very cautious when it comes to such assumptions! After reading all these biased nonsense, I would like to raise my hand and ask a simple question. Are you people living in the Twilight Zone? Physics and driving wise, Assetto Corsa is way more accurate! Especially when it comes to the suspension chassis response to weight transfer, inertia and mass comes through much more in the driving experience and overall behaviour. And this is the biggest flaw in the entire game! Project Cars has almost zero weight to the cars zero!. It really amuses me, how most of these people here trying to defend their holy game no matter how ridiculous it is :D
Just a good piece of advice to SMS, it is really not wise and clever in terms of marketing, to put such unqualified moderators here in the first place. Being objective in this matter and in regards to the net, it seems your reputation as a company is sinking on a daily basis. A little bit more professionalism would come in handy! To you super moderators jump back on your couch, grab your joypad and enjoy your console game!

Thanks for a wonderful first post and helping contribute to the forum.

Deckard2019
01-07-2015, 09:36
Thanks for a wonderful first post and helping contribute to the forum.

You're welcome Sir! I hope it was helpful coming back to reality again. Let me just say this, being sincere and objective in this matter Project Cars would be the far superior game, if the feel, the weight to the cars would be more real. I hope this gives you an incentive improving your game to that kind of level. Have a good one Sir!

Ian Bell
01-07-2015, 09:37
You're welcome Sir! I hope it was helpful coming back to reality again. Let me just say this, being sincere and objective in this matter Project Cars would be the far superior game, if the feel the weight to the cars would be more real. I hope this gives you an incentive improving your game to that kind of level. Have a good one Sir!

We were going to leave it Deckard but you've convinced me otherwise :)

blowfishrulez
01-07-2015, 09:37
One of my lads told me people getting banned on this forum for expressing their sincere opinion. I thought it was just a rumor reading this stuff in the entire net. I am very cautious when it comes to such assumptions! After reading all these biased nonsense, I would like to raise my hand and ask a simple question. Are you people living in the Twilight Zone? Physics and driving wise, Assetto Corsa is way more accurate! Especially when it comes to the suspension chassis response to weight transfer, inertia and mass comes through much more in the driving experience and overall behaviour. And this is the biggest flaw in the entire game! Project Cars has almost zero weight to the cars zero!. It really amuses me, how most of these people here trying to defend their holy game no matter how ridiculous it is :D
Just a good piece of advice to SMS, it is really not wise and clever in terms of marketing, to put such unqualified moderators here in the first place. Being objective in this matter and in regards to the net, it seems your reputation as a company is sinking on a daily basis. A little bit more professionalism would come in handy! To you super moderators jump back on your couch, grab your joypad and enjoy your console game!

http://www.city-data.com/forum/members/emeraldcitywanderer-1487482-albums-general-pic98542-tin-foil-hat.jpg

EvoM3
01-07-2015, 09:38
Just wanted to post up a video to demonstrate why I believe the grip values are not realistic.

In the Mclaren, I am dumping the clutch in 1st gear at full revs on tarmac. In real life, it would definitely spin the tyres, even though they are hot. The car struggles to spin tyres.. this is not realistic.

Secondly, I move the car to the grass and dump the revs at full RPM... the tyres struggle to break traction on the grass in second gear.. slick tyres on grass with 500hp going through them would spin in any gear.

This is not intended to offend anyone.. just wanted to demonstrate.. this could easily be changed by reducing grass friction values by a lot (80%).. and tarmac resistance should be reduced once traction is broken.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWe17Q3yfPM

Ian Bell
01-07-2015, 09:46
Just wanted to post up a video to demonstrate why I believe the grip values are not realistic.

In the Mclaren, I am dumping the clutch in 1st gear at full revs on tarmac. In real life, it would definitely spin the tyres, even though they are hot. The car struggles to spin tyres.. this is not realistic.

Secondly, I move the car to the grass and dump the revs at full RPM... the tyres struggle to break traction on the grass in second gear.. slick tyres on grass with 500hp going through them would spin in any gear.

This is not intended to offend anyone.. just wanted to demonstrate.. this could easily be changed by reducing grass friction values by a lot (80%).. and tarmac resistance should be reduced once traction is broken.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWe17Q3yfPM

I can hear the clutch feeding in from here.

wraithsrike
01-07-2015, 09:51
One of my lads told me people getting banned on this forum for expressing their sincere opinion. I thought it was just a rumor reading this stuff in the entire net. I am very cautious when it comes to such assumptions! After reading all these biased nonsense, I would like to raise my hand and ask a simple question. Are you people living in the Twilight Zone? Physics and driving wise, Assetto Corsa is way more accurate! Especially when it comes to the suspension chassis response to weight transfer, inertia and mass comes through much more in the driving experience and overall behaviour. And this is the biggest flaw in the entire game! Project Cars has almost zero weight to the cars zero!. It really amuses me, how most of these people here trying to defend their holy game no matter how ridiculous it is :D
Just a good piece of advice to SMS, it is really not wise and clever in terms of marketing, to put such unqualified moderators here in the first place. Being objective in this matter and in regards to the net, it seems your reputation as a company is sinking on a daily basis. A little bit more professionalism would come in handy! To you super moderators jump back on your couch, grab your joypad and enjoy your console game!

Now you see the trouble here is thus. Its your opinion, so therefore doesn't make it right.

rauf0
01-07-2015, 09:53
It's a autoclutch burnout test? :barbershop_quartet_

EvoM3
01-07-2015, 09:58
It's a autoclutch burnout test? :barbershop_quartet_

What? Autoclutch clearly turned off.. when autoclutch is on it doesn't let you dump it like that.. it slips for ages and maintains revs.

The clutch is fully released... if you dont believe it, go in game, pull a Mclaren up on the grass, rev and dump clutch at full RPM in SECOND gear and see...

EvoM3
01-07-2015, 09:59
I can hear the clutch feeding in from here.

Go in game and try it then. Second gear/grass/full revs/drop clutch.... no autoclutch.

Marrrfooo
01-07-2015, 10:00
Now you see the trouble here is thus. Its your opinion, so therefore doesn't make it right.

This is the absolute ESSENCE of almost every rage comment in the forums! Lol. Such a spot on response...

Ian Bell
01-07-2015, 10:02
Go in game and try it then. Second gear/grass/full revs/drop clutch.... no autoclutch.

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I am saying I can hear the clutch feeding in, I think it's spinning due to excessive torque. We'll look at the clutch forces for that car.

unknwn
01-07-2015, 10:04
I have tried the suggested "burnout" test. With BMW z4 gt3 i am able to burnout/spin tires without issue. With Aston martin gt3 there was no tire spin and the engine chokes. What is the reason for some gt3 cars being able to burnout and some not? Clearly it isn't not "because tires are grippy" or the auto clutch which was turned off(telemetry shows no clutch input).

EvoM3
01-07-2015, 10:06
Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I am saying I can hear the clutch feeding in, I think it's spinning due to excessive torque. We'll look at the clutch forces for that car.

Okay sorry I misunderstood I thought you suggested I manipulated the clutch to get that result.

By all means check the clutch force but I am sure it's a grass friction value being too high that causes the problem... if you go on the grass and do donuts the Mclaren wont spin in 3rd gear... I'm sure we both agree it would wheel spin in any gear on the grass...

I know it sounds like a trivial issue but the reason why I have such a problem with the grass friction values is this: Last place to 1st place before turn 2 on 100% difficulty because I am exploiting the friction values - this is not a jump start although it appears that way... the player should not be rewarded for driving this way...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFWn5mAeP3U


I have tried the suggested "burnout" test. With BMW z4 gt3 i am able to burnout/spin tires without issue. With Aston martin gt3 there was no tire spin and the engine chokes. What is the reason for some gt3 cars being able to burnout and some not? Clearly it isn't not "because tires are grippy" or the auto clutch which was turned off(telemetry shows no clutch input).

Man it's the grass friction value! It's too high... the cars are geared differently which explains why some cars can and some cars cannot.. the grip is too high on the grass... do donuts on the grass and you will see what I mean...

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 10:08
I have tried the suggested "burnout" test. With BMW z4 gt3 i am able to burnout/spin tires without issue. With Aston martin gt3 there was no tire spin and the engine chokes. What is the reason for some gt3 cars being able to burnout and some not? Clearly it isn't not "because tires are grippy" or the auto clutch which was turned off(telemetry shows no clutch input).

Different approaches to traction control? Remember GT3 cars have traction control. Could be it since even when off, some cars (hello mercedes, how you doing) still intervain against the driver desire. I'm assuming that because the car models were made using factory data.

unknwn
01-07-2015, 10:13
Different approaches to traction control? Remember GT3 cars have traction control. Could be it since even when off, some cars (hello mercedes, how you doing) still intervain against the driver desire. I'm assuming that because the car models were made using factory data.

If that's the case, it makes sense. Is it/should it be adjustable? For some reason devs some time ago stated that gt3 cars should be hard to burnout, because of grippy tyres, which interestingly is not always case in pcars (as per my example above).

TheDoctor46
01-07-2015, 10:16
I know it sounds like a trivial issue but the reason why I have such a problem with the grass friction values is this: Last place to 1st place before turn 2 on 100% difficulty because I am exploiting the friction values - this is not a jump start although it appears that way... the player should not be rewarded for driving this way...
Driving like a maniac is giving you the reward yes. Just like in rL, the only difference is that if it goes wrong, rL doesnt have a restart button ;)

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 10:21
If that's the case, it makes sense. Is it/should it be adjustable? For some reason devs some time ago stated that gt3 cars should be hard to burnout, because of grippy tyres, which interestingly is not always case in pcars (as per my example above).

You can change the Traction Control Slip value, the higher value the less interference. :D

rauf0
01-07-2015, 10:21
We need to ask somebody having knowledge is it realistic to move from other gear than first with GT3 car?

Overall i prefer not to have ice conditions on grass, or some hiper glue like in other titles, i would say all we need is better balanced track cutting rules. Just my 50 cents.

unknwn
01-07-2015, 10:27
You can change the Traction Control Slip value, the higher value the less interference. :D

I saw that option. As I remembered it wasn't possible to turn it off completely (or my interpretation of the provided values might be off).

TheReaper GT
01-07-2015, 10:27
I saw that option. As I remembered it wasn't possible to turn it off completely (or my interpretation of the provided values might be off).

I'm just turning my xbox on to give it a try. :D

rauf0
01-07-2015, 10:30
There was better vid which i cannot find, talking ab. crazy driving, 4 wide ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQOnOXXc-ps

unknwn
01-07-2015, 10:31
I'm just turning my xbox on to give it a try. :D

For example if the range is 5% - 15⅝, does setting 15% mean there will be 0 traction control?

EvoM3
01-07-2015, 10:38
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything in this thread but........why do I need to be dumping my clutch on the grass and trying to do a wheel spin?

It demonstrates that the player can exploit the physics in an unrealistic way.. it's actually got little to do with burnouts and more to do with driver behavior in the game.


Driving like a maniac is giving you the reward yes. Just like in rL, the only difference is that if it goes wrong, rL doesnt have a restart button ;)

Some what true but you dont typically see people simply over taking people across the grass (on all 4 wheels) as a standard pass... (there are of course instances where cars pass partly/all on grass but it's never a straight forward pass like in my video)...

Do you know why? Because grass doesnt behave that way when you go across it at 150kph on slicks...

I'm making this point because when I drive online I see people cutting corners, using grass where they shouldnt... it's being exploited and means players are being rewarded for driving in a way you cant in real life. This detracts from considering this a sim... a simulator, within reason should give a similar reaction to real life (where possible, and here it is easily possible and reducing grass friction would mean people keep on the tarmac)

Also I think it is already replicated but the player should also by punished by reduced friction values when they return to the track because of the debris on the tyres.


We need to ask somebody having knowledge is it realistic to move from other gear than first with GT3 car?

Overall i prefer not to have ice conditions on grass, or some hiper glue like in other titles, i would say all we need is better balanced track cutting rules. Just my 50 cents.

What does changing gear other than first have to do with it? Surely you would agree, if you took a GT3 car onto grass and tried to spin the tyres it would spin the tyres? Easily.. in any gear.. the point is that the grass has too much grip on the grass.. by about 80%.