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CCS86
06-07-2015, 13:49
Hi guys, a bit of background to start, since this one is very subjective:

-I instruct at HPDE's and have a lot of on-track car experience.

-I drive a heavily modified 2012 Mustang GT every day (with TC and SC disabled) and frequent the road course with it as well.

-I'm pretty decent at pCARS, currently holding the world lap record on Donington in a Formula A car, and very near the top on a few other car/track combos: http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=3100947921&vehicle=1909945073

...And now to the point:

When I advanced my career from karts and got a GT4 offer to drive a Mustang, it was a no brainer. Even with the physics set to pro, the driving aids disabled, and the AI set to ace, I have been crushing in career mode. Not to say it has been easy, but I'm getting results.

Unfortunately, from the first corner I took in the Mustang, I knew something was wrong. Obviously, the handling of a GT car is vastly different than that of a kart. But, the poor Mustang is currently a turd amongst its peers! I have spent countless hours tuning its setup, and despite making a modest improvement, it takes an all out pole-position style hot lap to put me mid field. Has anyone had success with it?

Observations:


Braking: I am a good late braker, but even in practice the opponents are CRUSHING me in the braking zones. Like, coming around me in the straight portion of the braking zone and hitting their apex, while I have gone in so deep that I can't hope to make the corner.
Overall grip: Just seems to lack the last bit of front end grip it needs to be competitive.
Stability: Even in a straight line, it has a major tendency to "slew" back and forth like a snake. It takes only a tiny input left and right, with the right timing, to generate a huge slide. Slides are hard to recover. I do this in my car every day in real life, and haven't spun once. I have better luck recovering a slide in the Formula A car. The Stang should slide with ease, but not incessantly and so touchy like it does.
Acceleration: Again, just lacking a bit of acceleration to be competitive with the GT4 field.




I'm curious to hear some other opinions on this, and even to share some setup data. But I still believe that a few things in the car's base specification force it to lack competitiveness. Please, help us out devs, the Stang deserves to kick ass!!!

Thanks!
Lars

F1_Racer68
07-07-2015, 00:15
Glad it's not just me that found this car a bit...... strange. Like you, I am a big Ford fan, so it was the same no brainer for me. I've only ever had a chance to drive the stock version (rental car) personally, but having seen them on track in person, I found it hard to believe that they were THAT sensitive on the back end.

Now I know the old sayings about "American Muscle" and how they are built for the drag strip, etc., etc., but surely people have seen the Multimatic Racing team run these in the Continental Tire Sports car Series, or the various teams that run them in the Pirelli World Challenge? They certainly appear to be much more stable on track than the in game version would lead you to believe.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 00:26
Fun little video chasing down a Porsche GT3 RS from a few years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Syg0Ho1GOM&feature=youtu.be

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 00:33
What level do you have the AI set to?

poirqc
07-07-2015, 00:34
Nice video! Where you the driver? I wish i could toggle cam! :) The tire sound, looks fun!

CCS86
07-07-2015, 01:02
Yup, that was me.... and for the record I cleaned up my sloppy hand shuffling since then! hahaha :triumphant:

CCS86
07-07-2015, 01:05
What level do you have the AI set to?


It is maxed out.

I know there is a potential bug in 2.0 where the AI cars qualify far stronger than they race. The AI should be bound by the same vehicle performance and physics as players, though.

What I am seeing is the Mustang just doesn't perform like it should. The biggest bummer is that it isn't any fun to drive!

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 01:14
It is maxed out.

The AI doesn't do well with the karts. Also, the AI in the lower racing tiers will be a certain percentage less than what is set (to simulate amateur racers). What I'm getting at is that the AI will perform differently with different types of vehicles and will also perform better as you progress higher in the career tiers.

I will say that the Boss is the underdog in the GT4 category.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 01:15
Nice video! Where you the driver? I wish i could toggle cam! :) The tire sound, looks fun!

Check out my Youtube page for some more track videos. We have some pretty sick cars at our school. There are some videos onboard my superbike too.

My first lap in an SLS AMG:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-vi1rlOiqc

The absurdly awesome Viper Time Attack:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hE67ddDVWw

MyBailey07
07-07-2015, 01:18
Haha - That's Harris Hill. I'm a member there!

CCS86
07-07-2015, 01:27
Haha - That's Harris Hill. I'm a member there!

Small world!

stangnutlx
07-07-2015, 01:44
Mustang owner here and I can tell you that the Boss 302 in game handles nothing like it does in real life. In game car slides way way to much and doesn't have enough mid range torque to move it the way it should. the sound of it needs to be more throaty and aggressive too. I feel its one of the funnest cars to drive though.

poirqc
07-07-2015, 01:44
Seems like a nice track. This is so much fun.

I drove a Ferrari once, 1 trial lap, 4 the fast as i could. I wish i could thank back the co-pilot. He was precise, calm and made it possible for me to go as fast as i could. It wouldn't happend without him!

I was so amazed when i got out of the car. I was shaking, i couldn't talk and i was about to cry of joy!

Edit - Donington Park National is super fun btw

CCS86
07-07-2015, 02:01
The AI doesn't do well with the karts. Also, the AI in the lower racing tiers will be a certain percentage less than what is set (to simulate amateur racers). What I'm getting at is that the AI will perform differently with different types of vehicles and will also perform better as you progress higher in the career tiers.

I will say that the Boss is the underdog in the GT4 category.




I really don't think that's what is going on here. I just put down a relatively easy pole lap in LMP3 in my first race, by 1.8 seconds, with the same AI setting:


210961

bobfromaccounting
07-07-2015, 02:12
i dont know what you're talking about, my solid rear axel car slides all over the place ;) lol

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 02:33
I really don't think that's what is going on here. I just put down a relatively easy pole lap in LMP3 in my first race, by 1.8 seconds, with the same AI setting

Actually that is part of it, as in the AI performs differently with different cars. The GT cars had the most input so you'll see the best AI performance with those cars. But as I mentioned, the Boss is the underdog of the GT4 bunch. IIRC, it's not really a true GT4 so it's a little heavier and lacking in suspension compared to the true GT4 cars.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 13:50
Actually that is part of it, as in the AI performs differently with different cars. The GT cars had the most input so you'll see the best AI performance with those cars. But as I mentioned, the Boss is the underdog of the GT4 bunch. IIRC, it's not really a true GT4 so it's a little heavier and lacking in suspension compared to the true GT4 cars.


I'm not denying that AI behaves differently in the various classes. I'm saying that the Mustang is not modeled correctly.

Here is the opening lap of my first LMP3 race. If the AI is really so unbalanced as to explain the difference between struggling to qualify mid-pack in GT4, vs dominating LMP3, then they got it wrong:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6n4nKycVqg

TrevorAustin
07-07-2015, 14:06
I've been having this debate from day 1, only about the road cars and some of the derivatives, I've driven the R8 quite a bit in real life, and it has exactly the same issues in the game, it feels like I'm driving it on top of ball bearings:) just no fun to drive and too easy to slide. I gave up on the mustang after about 3/4 of a lap.

There is something to be said for not being fully aware of the speed you're doing and lack of g forces, but I still think there are some fundamental handling issues with some of the cars.

xautos
07-07-2015, 15:18
Actually that is part of it, as in the AI performs differently with different cars. The GT cars had the most input so you'll see the best AI performance with those cars. But as I mentioned, the Boss is the underdog of the GT4 bunch. IIRC, it's not really a true GT4 so it's a little heavier and lacking in suspension compared to the true GT4 cars.

i drove that car around hockenheim a few weeks ago, the one thing that caught my attention was how easy you can spin the tyres up, but ever the racer i am, i adapt around and make no sudden moves on the wheel and apply the accelerator exactly where it will bite without it throwing me off. it takes a bit of patience to race around in.

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 16:19
I'm saying that the Mustang is not modeled correctly.

What specifically is not correct about the Mustang?

CCS86
07-07-2015, 16:24
Please refer to the OP

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 16:55
Braking: I am a good late braker, but even in practice the opponents are CRUSHING me in the braking zones. Like, coming around me in the straight portion of the braking zone and hitting their apex, while I have gone in so deep that I can't hope to make the corner.

You aren't going to compete with the Ginetta in braking. That car is so light and with quite a bit of aero, that it will dominate GT4's in the braking zones. The Mustang (IIRC) is the heaviest car of the bunch, so it will struggle in the braking zone. What you describe here doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary for this Mustang compared to what it's competing against.

Overall grip: Just seems to lack the last bit of front end grip it needs to be competitive.

This has to do, with IMO, the suspension. I found the Mustang to be less compliant than other GT4's, but again the Mustang isn't a true GT4 car so it makes sense.

Stability: Even in a straight line, it has a major tendency to "slew" back and forth like a snake. It takes only a tiny input left and right, with the right timing, to generate a huge slide. Slides are hard to recover. I do this in my car every day in real life, and haven't spun once. I have better luck recovering a slide in the Formula A car. The Stang should slide with ease, but not incessantly and so touchy like it does.

That's the solid rear axle for you.


Acceleration: Again, just lacking a bit of acceleration to be competitive with the GT4 field.


Due to it's weight...


Now, it's likely possible the Mustang could be made lighter, change out the solid rear, and update the suspension to make it more competitive. However, then it wouldn't be really simulating the real car. Not saying that would be good or bad, just point it out.

TrevorAustin
07-07-2015, 18:07
Braking: I am a good late braker, but even in practice the opponents are CRUSHING me in the braking zones. Like, coming around me in the straight portion of the braking zone and hitting their apex, while I have gone in so deep that I can't hope to make the corner.

You aren't going to compete with the Ginetta in braking. That car is so light and with quite a bit of aero, that it will dominate GT4's in the braking zones. The Mustang (IIRC) is the heaviest car of the bunch, so it will struggle in the braking zone. What you describe here doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary for this Mustang compared to what it's competing against.

Overall grip: Just seems to lack the last bit of front end grip it needs to be competitive.

This has to do, with IMO, the suspension. I found the Mustang to be less compliant than other GT4's, but again the Mustang isn't a true GT4 car so it makes sense.

Stability: Even in a straight line, it has a major tendency to "slew" back and forth like a snake. It takes only a tiny input left and right, with the right timing, to generate a huge slide. Slides are hard to recover. I do this in my car every day in real life, and haven't spun once. I have better luck recovering a slide in the Formula A car. The Stang should slide with ease, but not incessantly and so touchy like it does.

That's the solid rear axle for you.


Acceleration: Again, just lacking a bit of acceleration to be competitive with the GT4 field.


Due to it's weight...


Now, it's likely possible the Mustang could be made lighter, change out the solid rear, and update the suspension to make it more competitive. However, then it wouldn't be really simulating the real car. Not saying that would be good or bad, just point it out.

All good points:) but i think you might have missed the poimt that this guy races these in real life up to instructor level. So unlike me I'm sure he knows all that and has taken it into account already.

Ryno917
07-07-2015, 18:13
For the comparisons to the AI, are you referring to the AI driving the 'Stang, or other GT4 cars? Small, but important, detail. As mentioned, the Mustang is definitely the dog of the field.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 18:34
You aren't going to compete with the Ginetta in braking. That car is so light and with quite a bit of aero, that it will dominate GT4's in the braking zones. The Mustang (IIRC) is the heaviest car of the bunch, so it will struggle in the braking zone. What you describe here doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary for this Mustang compared to what it's competing against.



We aren't talking about losing a tenth in a heavy braking zone. It's more like a half second++. The weight difference alone doesn't explain this discrepancy. The Mustang should have comparable braking hardware to the other cars, as allowed by the class rules.




Stability: Even in a straight line, it has a major tendency to "slew" back and forth like a snake. It takes only a tiny input left and right, with the right timing, to generate a huge slide. Slides are hard to recover. I do this in my car every day in real life, and haven't spun once. I have better luck recovering a slide in the Formula A car. The Stang should slide with ease, but not incessantly and so touchy like it does.

That's the solid rear axle for you.


No it's not. I drive one every single day. It hooks up exiting corners and is extremely stable in a straight line. IRS cars lack straight line stability compared to a solid axle because NVH compromises and suspension geometry make it harder to maintain proper rear wheel alignment under load.



Due to it's weight...

Now, it's likely possible the Mustang could be made lighter, change out the solid rear, and update the suspension to make it more competitive. However, then it wouldn't be really simulating the real car. Not saying that would be good or bad, just point it out.


Again, the issues I am seeing are beyond the scope of a simple weight penalty.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 18:36
For the comparisons to the AI, are you referring to the AI driving the 'Stang, or other GT4 cars? Small, but important, detail. As mentioned, the Mustang is definitely the dog of the field.


Hmmm, I'm not sure 100%. But I believe that some AI driven Mustangs were whipping me up pretty good too.

madmax2069
07-07-2015, 18:57
Hmmm, I'm not sure 100%. But I believe that some AI driven Mustangs were whipping me up pretty good too.

You could do a quick race weekend and select the mustang, and set up identical cars and put in a few AI drivers and crank up the AI skill and race against all mustangs.

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 19:30
All good points:) but i think you might have missed the poimt that this guy races these in real life up to instructor level. So unlike me I'm sure he knows all that and has taken it into account already.

He's not racing, he's driving on a track. There are big differences. You might have also missed that I do own a real race car (http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/hosting/Honda/2014_04_MAM/20140426-John_Hiatt_IV-0611-2.jpg) and drive on real tracks myself. I'm also an instructor for NASA Pro Racing and the Chief Instructor for NASA Central (Kyle):

http://drivenasacentral.com/contact.php

So now that the e-pens are out of the way, let's get back to the discussion.



We aren't talking about losing a tenth in a heavy braking zone. It's more like a half second++. The weight difference alone doesn't explain this discrepancy. The Mustang should have comparable braking hardware to the other cars, as allowed by the class rules.

This version of the FR500 isn't exactly the same that is homologated for GT4. There is a FR500C which is homologated for the GT4 class over in Europe but it's not exactly what we have in pCARS. They are similar but the rules are different between the Conti series and the European series. I tried to look up some data for it, but it apparently has only run one race in the two years (and didn't complete the race). Mustangs did win in GT4 back in 2008, but it's been a long time since they have been competitive (at least in the main GT4 series, as there are a few smaller ones).

CCS86
07-07-2015, 19:59
He's not racing, he's driving on a track. There are big differences. You might have also missed that I do own a real race car (http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/hosting/Honda/2014_04_MAM/20140426-John_Hiatt_IV-0611-2.jpg) and drive on real tracks myself. I'm also an instructor for NASA Pro Racing and the Chief Instructor for NASA Central (Kyle):

So now that the e-pens are out of the way, let's get back to the discussion.



Yes, there are big difference between driving around on a track and racing. Those differences aren't important to this issue though. The vehicle physics are what they are regardless of whether you are chasing a stopwatch, chasing other cars, or screwing around. For the record I raced Superbikes for 6 years with good success, so I have competition experience.

I'm selling my race bike and moving that "equity" either into a race car, or a Kenne Bell for the Mustang. If it's the former, I may join NASA TX.




This version of the FR500 isn't exactly the same that is homologated for GT4. There is a FR500C which is homologated for the GT4 class over in Europe but it's not exactly what we have in pCARS. They are similar but the rules are different between the Conti series and the European series. I tried to look up some data for it, but it apparently has only run one race in the two years (and didn't complete the race). Mustangs did win in GT4 back in 2008, but it's been a long time since they have been competitive (at least in the main GT4 series, as there are a few smaller ones).



Even if the Mustang is "tacked on" to the GT4 racing class in the game, it should handle accurately (the main reason for this thread), and in my opinion, be somewhat competitive.

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 20:06
Even if the Mustang is "tacked on" to the GT4 racing class in the game, it should handle accurately (the main reason for this thread), and in my opinion, be somewhat competitive.

What you need to do is some telemetry comparison. What I've seen in the past (I'm not suggesting this is you specificlly), is that people don't realize how fast they are going in a sim in comparison to when they are driving a real car, or vice versa. I have done some telemetry comparisons in the past with drivers, and they didn't realize how slow they were going in their real car compared to virtual racing, because the sensation and nerve of real life driving really amps up the experience. This would help provide an apples to apples comparison.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 20:13
What you need to do is some telemetry comparison. What I've seen in the past (I'm not suggesting this is you specificlly), is that people don't realize how fast they are going in a sim in comparison to when they are driving a real car, or vice versa. I have done some telemetry comparisons in the past with drivers, and they didn't realize how slow they were going in their real car compared to virtual racing, because the sensation and nerve of real life driving really amps up the experience. This would help provide an apples to apples comparison.



Yup, good point.

I think the biggest issue with the Mustang (for me at least), is the terribly unstable handling and that is nothing telemetry will help much with.

In regards to competitiveness in its class, we could use telemetry to compare max braking, acceleration, and cornering force to the other GT4 cars, for reference if nothing else.

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 20:21
In regards to competitiveness in its class, we could use telemetry to compare max braking, acceleration, and cornering force to the other GT4 cars, for reference if nothing else.

Just to point out, my comments are mainly on it's real life counterpart behavior comparison. I'm not necessarily suggesting nor focusing on how competitive the car is or isn't within a class/group of other cars.

TrevorAustin
07-07-2015, 20:25
He's not racing, he's driving on a track. There are big differences. You might have also missed that I do own a real race car (http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/hosting/Honda/2014_04_MAM/20140426-John_Hiatt_IV-0611-2.jpg) and drive on real tracks myself. I'm also an instructor for NASA Pro Racing and the Chief Instructor for NASA Central (Kyle):

http://drivenasacentral.com/contact.php

So now that the e-pens are out of the way, let's get back to the discussion.




This version of the FR500 isn't exactly the same that is homologated for GT4. There is a FR500C which is homologated for the GT4 class over in Europe but it's not exactly what we have in pCARS. They are similar but the rules are different between the Conti series and the European series. I tried to look up some data for it, but it apparently has only run one race in the two years (and didn't complete the race). Mustangs did win in GT4 back in 2008, but it's been a long time since they have been competitive (at least in the main GT4 series, as there are a few smaller ones).

That doesn't negate his points, but is pretty damn cool, and adds weight to yours, so actually very much worth knowing. Nothing to do with ego, just makes you an expert witness stating your credibility.

There are, not surprisingly a few mistakes, maybe this is one.

Oh and I'm not jealous at all of you owning a race car or racing:(

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 20:32
However not sure why you're being so defensive, there are, not surprisingly a few mistakes, maybe this is one.

It's not defensive. Many people assume that because they drive a certain car in real life on a track, they they are driving it hard. They believe they really are driving as hard as they can when actually driving. However, when they drive in a sim, it takes away all of the fear and responsibility. This has them driving harder/faster than they do in real life which gives an entirely different experience (i.e. more instability). This is why I suggested telemetry for comparison. To be honest, I believe our 302R1 is going to be a little faster than what we are seeing in the Conti Challenge races currently. I think our tires are going to be just a bit faster.

Lukas Macedo
07-07-2015, 20:36
This thread has gold potential. I love the Stang in pCars. It would be great to see some real life telemetry comparison.

CCS86
07-07-2015, 20:43
It's not defensive. Many people assume that because they drive a certain car in real life on a track, they they are driving it hard. They believe they really are driving as hard as they can when actually driving. However, when they drive in a sim, it takes away all of the fear and responsibility. This has them driving harder/faster than they do in real life which gives an entirely different experience (i.e. more instability). This is why I suggested telemetry for comparison. To be honest, I believe our 302R1 is going to be a little faster than what we are seeing in the Conti Challenge races currently. I think our tires are going to be just a bit faster.



If you aren't suggesting that this complaint is a result of a mis-calibrated ass, then why do you keep bringing it up? For sure the lack of sensory inputs (IMO) makes sim driving more difficult than the real thing (as an input/output game, training your brain to go fast with real consequences is a whole other matter).

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you quantify your real world experience with this car (or something similar). You say "our 302R1". Are you talking real life, or "our" pCARS Mustang?

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 20:47
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you quantify your real world experience with this car (or something similar). You say "our 302R1". Are you talking real life, or "our" pCARS Mustang?

pCARS...

However, like you, I've had the opportunity to drive many cars as an instructor. I've been instructing since 2004 and track driving since 1999. I haven't driven every car under the sun, but I've had my fair share of various vehicles over the years.

You've been part of this project for many years. You should know the best way to approach these things by now. WMD/SMS look at data since subjective interpretation only can go so far (and only breed non-productive arguments)...

TrevorAustin
07-07-2015, 20:49
It's not defensive. Many people assume that because they drive a certain car in real life on a track, they they are driving it hard. They believe they really are driving as hard as they can when actually driving. However, when they drive in a sim, it takes away all of the fear and responsibility. This has them driving harder/faster than they do in real life which gives an entirely different experience (i.e. more instability). This is why I suggested telemetry for comparison. To be honest, I believe our 302R1 is going to be a little faster than what we are seeing in the Conti Challenge races currently. I think our tires are going to be just a bit faster.

Ha, you beat me to reply before I edited, decided I'd worded it wrong.

You might be right, as I might be wrong about the R8 for exactly the same reason. Just done a few laps of monza in the Mustang and I've always wanted one, I don't anymore.

In fact if I'm honest the only cars I want from the game are the Formula A, the Oreca Nissan and the GT3 MClaren 12C, they are so easy to drive, if they scale to real life like the R8 and any of the other cars I've driven in real life in comparison to the car version and over driving them they would be incredible. Although I've only driven about 10 of the cars as it is, I'm having too much fun with my 3 favourites:)

ALso, I completely understand your comments about data, but can that cover what a car 'feels' like to drive, not just lap and braking times? That isn't a challenge, I have no idea.

Mahjik
07-07-2015, 21:08
ALso, I completely understand your comments about data, but can that cover what a car 'feels' like to drive, not just lap and braking times? That isn't a challenge, I have no idea.

You'd be surprised what people "feel" when they see data... That is part of the bonus from being part of the WMD community. It was interesting (funny to some extent) to see some members "change" their sense of reality when shown the data. There were times when people said "Car X doesn't have enough grip". But when they pulled the telemetry, they were seeing the data show 1.X g's in the corners which was within a small percentage of variance to most online testing. After they saw the numbers, it was "The car feels really good". This is why it's good to focus on data/numbers first but you are correct, there can be other things which are not within the numbers.

diesel97
07-07-2015, 21:16
This thread has gold potential. I love the Stang in pCars. It would be great to see some real life telemetry comparison.

I 'm just hoping for a good set up :very_drunk:

CCS86
08-07-2015, 00:31
pCARS...

However, like you, I've had the opportunity to drive many cars as an instructor. I've been instructing since 2004 and track driving since 1999. I haven't driven every car under the sun, but I've had my fair share of various vehicles over the years.

You've been part of this project for many years. You should know the best way to approach these things by now. WMD/SMS look at data since subjective interpretation only can go so far (and only breed non-productive arguments)...




I just don't see a way to use telemetry data to quantify the Mustang's handling/stability issues. If you do, I'm all ears. Steady state braking, cornering, acceleration, sure. But, the "feel" of the car is dynamic, transient, and hard to quantify. Definitely subjective. I'd say that as someone who drives this generation Mustang very hard all the time, my opinion on feel has some value.

We both know the vast difference between a street car and a track prepped car in terms of feel. Proper racing tires are night and day over street rubber. Add in bracing, lightweighting, brakes, suspension... and you have something that should behave with consistency and very direct feedback. My street Mustang, has FAR better feel than this racing Mustang in pCARS, currently.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 00:32
I 'm just hoping for a good set up :very_drunk:


You and me both!

Every other car in the game I have tried so far, I've been able to get the car behaving nicely within a couple pit stops worth of tuning. This Mustang just seems beyond tuning right now.

Mahjik
08-07-2015, 02:44
I just don't see a way to use telemetry data to quantify the Mustang's handling/stability issues. If you do, I'm all ears. Steady state braking, cornering, acceleration, sure. But, the "feel" of the car is dynamic, transient, and hard to quantify. Definitely subjective. I'd say that as someone who drives this generation Mustang very hard all the time, my opinion on feel has some value.

The main thing is to quantify the Mustang is doing the correct things "overall" (i.e. does it have too much grip, not enough, too fast, too slow, etc) compared to the real 302R1. After that, it will be subjective. I just ran about 30 minutes with the Mustang in pCARS on Oschersleben GP. It's one of my favorite test tracks since it has the hard braking zone into T1, and then the steady long corning through T6-T8, as well as the quick transitions through T11-T13.

With that, default setup wise the car understeers quite a bit. If you look at the setup, it is setup to understeer. The front is very stiff compared to the rear. I softened the front up a little and increased the rake. The diff is also setup to make braking easier, so increasing the deceleration lock helped in the braking. Those few quick tweaks made the car much better for me and I'm sure I could keep tweaking on it (since those were just a quick 5 minute look around the setup). I didn't seem to experience much of what you are mentioning other than the braking. I didn't check the brake temps, but the duct is open quite a bit by default. Might be worth checking the brake temps to see if maybe they just aren't getting hot enough.

I did run the car without assists and then will assists set to REAL. The main difference was the control during the cold tires phase. I will say, I had forgotten how much fun the GT4 class really is since most people only run GT3's online.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 02:47
When you say rake, do you mean camber or caster?

Mahjik
08-07-2015, 02:54
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Images/rake_angle.gif


When you say rake, do you mean camber or caster?

Rake, as in the height from rear to front.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 03:47
http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Images/rake_angle.gif

Rake, as in the height from rear to front.


Ahh, I'm a motorcycle racer at heart. Same principle, different execution ;)

CCS86
08-07-2015, 04:00
So, I tinkered with the Mustang some more, and feel like I made some headway. Still not happy about overall stability and slide recovery.

You were absolutely right about the brakes. I completely closed the ducting and never got above 1200*

It still takes at least two laps to get the tires warmed up, even at these reduced pressures, so be patient.

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jgaganas
08-07-2015, 06:13
Great thread (loving the Boss)... keep it coming.

Anyways, any "major" handling change of this car would probably break my little heart. This is so much fun to drive!

Mahjik
08-07-2015, 13:21
So, I tinkered with the Mustang some more, and feel like I made some headway. Still not happy about overall stability and slide recovery.

You went with a little different implementation than I did, but still the same direction (i.e. soften the front and/or stiffen the rear). You might try adding in more deceleration lock on the diff.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 13:49
Yup, it could probably use a little more deceleration lock to stabilize corner entry. That one tuning parameter that seems to work opposite as I expected. It seems like a higher value should increase torque biasing in decel conditions, effectively allowing less differential motion (locking the wheels together), and increasing off-throttle oversteer.

I might have gone a bit far with a couple parameters (sway bars, and ride height for example). It just seemed like the Stang is transferring weight all over the place. That weight transfer inertia can definitely contribute to a loose feeling.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 13:55
Just for reference within the GT4 class:

(HP / Weight)
Mustang: 406 / 3320 = .1223
BMW M3: 416 / 3295 = .1263
Vantage: 430 / 3196 = .1345
Ginetta: 343 / 2777 = .1235

So, it is at the bottom, but not by a mile. Very close to the M3 in power and weight.

It seems odd to me that the Boss has only 406 in the game. That is less than the Mustang GT of that year. The Boss 302R (probably the closest actual production car) has 444 HP. Especially being the heaviest car of the bunch, it seems like a fair amount of power to have.

How about it devs, give the old stand the power boost she deserves??? :)

bmanic
08-07-2015, 14:42
Hi guys, a bit of background to start, since this one is very subjective:

-I instruct at HPDE's and have a lot of on-track car experience.

-I drive a heavily modified 2012 Mustang GT every day (with TC and SC disabled) and frequent the road course with it as well.

-I'm pretty decent at pCARS, currently holding the world lap record on Donington in a Formula A car, and very near the top on a few other car/track combos: http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=3100947921&vehicle=1909945073

...And now to the point:

When I advanced my career from karts and got a GT4 offer to drive a Mustang, it was a no brainer. Even with the physics set to pro, the driving aids disabled, and the AI set to ace, I have been crushing in career mode. Not to say it has been easy, but I'm getting results.

Unfortunately, from the first corner I took in the Mustang, I knew something was wrong. Obviously, the handling of a GT car is vastly different than that of a kart. But, the poor Mustang is currently a turd amongst its peers! I have spent countless hours tuning its setup, and despite making a modest improvement, it takes an all out pole-position style hot lap to put me mid field. Has anyone had success with it?

Observations:


Braking: I am a good late braker, but even in practice the opponents are CRUSHING me in the braking zones. Like, coming around me in the straight portion of the braking zone and hitting their apex, while I have gone in so deep that I can't hope to make the corner.
Overall grip: Just seems to lack the last bit of front end grip it needs to be competitive.
Stability: Even in a straight line, it has a major tendency to "slew" back and forth like a snake. It takes only a tiny input left and right, with the right timing, to generate a huge slide. Slides are hard to recover. I do this in my car every day in real life, and haven't spun once. I have better luck recovering a slide in the Formula A car. The Stang should slide with ease, but not incessantly and so touchy like it does.
Acceleration: Again, just lacking a bit of acceleration to be competitive with the GT4 field.




I'm curious to hear some other opinions on this, and even to share some setup data. But I still believe that a few things in the car's base specification force it to lack competitiveness. Please, help us out devs, the Stang deserves to kick ass!!!

Thanks!
Lars

Could it be that you are fighting the Force Feedback of your wheel? I had huge issues "understanding" this car until I got down and dirty with FFB tweaking. Now it's one of my favorite cars. May I ask you what FFB settings you have set for the CAR itself (found in the car setup's FFB tab)? Also, then let us know what overall FFB settings and what wheel you are using.

Having said that, I do find it slower than the other cars.. but this is realistic, right?

bmanic
08-07-2015, 14:47
I just don't see a way to use telemetry data to quantify the Mustang's handling/stability issues. If you do, I'm all ears. Steady state braking, cornering, acceleration, sure. But, the "feel" of the car is dynamic, transient, and hard to quantify. Definitely subjective. I'd say that as someone who drives this generation Mustang very hard all the time, my opinion on feel has some value.

We both know the vast difference between a street car and a track prepped car in terms of feel. Proper racing tires are night and day over street rubber. Add in bracing, lightweighting, brakes, suspension... and you have something that should behave with consistency and very direct feedback. My street Mustang, has FAR better feel than this racing Mustang in pCARS, currently.

This makes me feel like it truly is a FFB thing. At default Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz settings I simply can not feel the grip properly. I always overshoot corners or push too little.. but never "perfectly". It's because I can't feel exactly what the car is doing. Tweaking the FFB to give better feedback has helped me a lot. Once I felt the FFB was as good as I could get it for the default car setup, I then started tinkering with the setup and finally did some fine tuning (very subtle stuff) for the FFB and yet again went back to car setup tuning.

CCS86
08-07-2015, 14:48
Could it be that you are fighting the Force Feedback of your wheel? I had huge issues "understanding" this car until I got down and dirty with FFB tweaking. Now it's one of my favorite cars. May I ask you what FFB settings you have set for the CAR itself (found in the car setup's FFB tab)? Also, then let us know what overall FFB settings and what wheel you are using.

Having said that, I do find it slower than the other cars.. but this is realistic, right?



I'm using Jack's tweaked FFB files and a DFGT.

Still haven't settled on base FFB settings though. Most recently, I reset the wheel settings, calibrated, then reduced tire force to 40%. I'm seeing less clipping now, but don't feel like I'm there yet. It is definitely possible that loosing detailed FFB makes the car harder to drive. Although, I can slide the crap out of the Radical and Formula A cars, and they should be FAR less forgiving to slide than a Mustang.

I don't think it is realistic that the Mustang is just "slower". The Vantage has the best power/weight at: 430 / 3196 = .1345

If the Mustang had what I think is the correct power, it would be right there: 444 / 3320 = .1337

bobfromaccounting
08-07-2015, 15:49
This is just a matter of they didn't use the correct car. As stated before this mustang is for the continental sports car challenge series at the time and it is going against european GT4 spec cars. The mustang that is homologated for GT4 is the FR500C. Has 500hp and 3200lbs but don't know about all the rest (suspension, aero, and tires). But as seen with a little tuning work the 302 is still a pretty competitive car.

So the proper solution for this is to bring in all the cars in Continental series into the game lol :P

CCS86
08-07-2015, 16:32
So our in-game Stang just needs a quick power boost, and for the blown out rubber panhard bar bushings to be replaced with spherical joints! ;)

Dear god, I hope the devs give us the new Shelby GT350R-C!!

bmanic
08-07-2015, 16:49
I'm using Jack's tweaked FFB files and a DFGT.

Still haven't settled on base FFB settings though. Most recently, I reset the wheel settings, calibrated, then reduced tire force to 40%. I'm seeing less clipping now, but don't feel like I'm there yet. It is definitely possible that loosing detailed FFB makes the car harder to drive. Although, I can slide the crap out of the Radical and Formula A cars, and they should be FAR less forgiving to slide than a Mustang.

I don't think it is realistic that the Mustang is just "slower". The Vantage has the best power/weight at: 430 / 3196 = .1345

If the Mustang had what I think is the correct power, it would be right there: 444 / 3320 = .1337

I know Jack Spade is using a lot of SoP and personally I find it very bad for quick laptimes or "understanding" the car. Why? Because it masks the true amount of grip you get from the front tires by mixing in rear tire grip (stuff that normally would not come through a steering wheel at all). This makes it a lot harder to truly find the limits of the car, resulting in one either over or under driving the car into corners and learning the absolute optimum steering angle/slip angle for a corner.

One other thing I noticed with the Mustang.. it does NOT like low rear tire pressures at all. It is a lot more balanced with higher pressures. I can go as low as 1.40 at the front but if I go below 1.55 at the back (metric system btw!) it starts behaving real bad at the limit. The tire needs to be rigid and have enough pressure so that the carcass is supporting it.. or something like that. I just know I can clearly feel it in the overall balance through the FFB and it is clearly shown in my laptimes. Once I realized this I cut my times by more than half a second, immediately! I don't know why this is the case with the Mustang but perhaps it has something to do with the live rear axle. I didn't notice this at all with the BMW nor the Aston Martin.

As for sliding it around.. yeah it really sounds like the FFB is fighting against you. I have NO trouble at all to slide the mustang all over the place. Heck I can go almost 90 degrees sideways and still be in full control and recover. :)

I'll go back into the game now and take some screenshots of my settings (keep in mind these are for my current Oschersleben GP challenge of getting a low 1:34.xxx there).

CCS86
08-07-2015, 16:58
Cool, sounds good! I'll try removing the tweaks. Let me know what settings you are having luck with on your DFGT.

I have been adjusting my tire pressures in order to optimize tire temps while lapping. That is definitely odd. A tire's lateral rigidity should be a function of its construction more so than the pressure.

On the Mustang last night, I actually started adjusting camber to equalize inner-to-outer tire temps. I'm not sure if it worked, or if it is a good practice though. I might start a thread to discuss general tuning practices and get some more opinions.

bmanic
08-07-2015, 17:41
Well, currently I am driving with the Thrustmaster TX wheel but I suspect the car setup FFB settings would be about the same for the DFGT. The actual wheel specific settings would be a bit different but you can see those in my "temporary solution" thread that you find in my signature.

Here are the car specific FFB settings (No SoP or anything else in the second tab. Just keep them at zero. Also make sure you remove the FFB Tweaker .xml file if you want these to work).

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Also note that you can get to the extremely important Arm Angle setting ONLY by using the arrow keys on the keyboard. It is still not possible to get there with the mouse (while in the garage on track). Another note: DISREGARD my Master Scale setting. Just set it so that your wheel does not clip. I am using such a high setting only because my main Tire Force setting in the wheel preferences is set to a ridiculously low number of 5.

More about the actual wheel preference FFB settings can be found in the threads linked in my signature.

Final note: These are "car learning/understanding and optimal laptime" settings. They are NOT made for "road feel" or other non-important immersion things when it comes to driving fast.. so don't expect "amazing FFB" but rather accurate and informative FFB that you should "listen to".

bobfromaccounting
08-07-2015, 18:09
So our in-game Stang just needs a quick power boost, and for the blown out rubber panhard bar bushings to be replaced with spherical joints! ;)

Dont think it will be that easy in terms of just power boost and specially those panhard bushings you have to keep those lol. But just looking at the classes and me making an ASSumption. They have 2 cars that are GT4 only (aston rapid and ginetta) the BMW and Aston Vantage are both GT4 and Continental (with respective changes for regulations) and the 302R1 is Continental only. It was probably easier and better (as in more car choice for the GT4 class) to lump them all in one group.

bmanic
08-07-2015, 21:52
Here is my current Mustang 301 setup for Oschersleben GP (got the world record there.. and I'm sure a low 1.34.xxx is possible as I once had a lap where I was -0.7 seconds up on my lap in the second sector.. but messed it up in the last two corners!!).

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I've also tweaked the on throttle diff lock to 0.35 and off throttle to 0.2. Break Bias is set to 46 (rear bias).