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bigair199
09-07-2015, 21:59
I ask this because I try to be a clean racer but at the same time i'm not gonna roll over and give up a position just because he barely has the nose of his car under me in a corner. Here was the situation and you guy's tell me if I'm in the wrong or not.
We are at Willow Springs and we are in turn 2/3 in GT3 cars, the long right hand sweeping corner. He starts to stick his nose on the inside of me but I can still see at least half his car in my rear view mirror. I shut the door on corner exit and force him to back-off, which he proceeds to bad mouth the piss out of me and basically accusing me of driving dirty mainly because after that he starting over-driving the turns and lost by a considerable amount.
My question is at what point would you let off and give up the position? I feel like because I could see at least half his car in my mirror that he did not have himself far enough in there to have taken the position from me. Now just for the record I have raced cars before but on dirt where you have a good line of sight and better able to hear the location of the other car, so just looking for some clarification from other drivers on this!

McKiernan
09-07-2015, 22:17
It is generally accepted that proper racing etiquette is that the driver who is attempting an overtake should have a sufficient overlap in the breaking zone(their front wheels in line with your door) before attempting a pass. The trouble with this with games is due to visibility, it is sometimes hard to know where this point is. If you could still see most of his car in your rearview mirror I would say you were just defensive driving & not dirty, especially if you made no contact.

flatspunout
09-07-2015, 22:17
Different rules for different series, but IMO a good rule of thumb is the attacking car's nose must be even with the front door of the defending car to have position. Online I'm much more cautious than that because of the sticky cars and most drivers don't realize that overtaking etiquette involves both cars not just the other guy.

EDIT: Contrary to my own advice, in your specific situation (long fast sweeper) and in oval racing a fender is probably enough to warrant holding your line.

rams1de
09-07-2015, 22:18
Imo. Unless the ahead driver has already begun to turn in, then there's an obligation on BOTH drivers to allow the other to exit the corner unimpeded.

It often means both drivers having to sacrifice the perfect line which is where racecraft really shows.

When you say 'shut the door', did you simply hold your line or cut inside to deny him room?

bigair199
10-07-2015, 20:14
I shouldn't say I shut the door as much as I just didn't allow him the room he was gonna need to make the pass. That turn exit is slightly off-camber anyway and he knew he was never gonna make the pass without wrecking both of us unless I just let up and gave it to him even though he was nowhere near my front door with his tires. I did turn in slightly at the turn exit just so I wouldn't end up in the dirt but not enough to run him off track on the inside. Thanks for the opinions, just trying to keep it clean.

Pink_650S
10-07-2015, 20:35
I can only speak for myself.
When someone tries to make a move on me and has the inside, l mostly give in, only to avoid unnecessary collisions. I can always overtake him/her back.
When l try to overtake an opponent though, l'm heavily cautious, because l dont expect others to be that careful or aware of their surroundings. (You never know what view someone's using)
So l only make my moves when l'm 100% sure or l just wait for a mistake.

Silly and unintentional accidents can always happen, just make sure to do the right thing afterwards :)

Jakob
11-07-2015, 03:06
If I know I'm faster than the car in front of me, I pressure them as much as possible and wait for them to make a mistake. If it's down to the last lap, I find a way past them, as cleanly as possible.

wyldanimal
11-07-2015, 03:23
It's a catch 22,
technically the Overtake car should have 2/3rd's of his car beside yours.. Front tires at your Door..

Then you as the car being overtaken should allow enough room to avoid contact..

but in SIM racing, without a headset and Head tracking, It's next to impossible to see along side well enough.

The other part is, on most turns, you need to start your Approach from the Outside, and then turn in to the Apex..
This give the car behind you the View, that the Inside is Wide open for an Overtake..

and it leads to the situation you just described..

really, the car attempting to Overtake you like that, needs to work on his racecraft.
he should Know, that you are going to turn in on him, and should have backed off as he didn't have an established position on you.

Yes, Passing requires good racecraft on both parts.
I'd say More so on the overtake car though..
the car in front has the line, you coming from behind, have to execute your pass so that the front car KNOWS you ARE There.

It's often better to brake just a little early, accelerate through the Apex, so your Exit speed is faster, and overtake the car after the turn exit..

and then we also experience LAG, so in a close situation there are the bumps that didn't really happen..

In the leagues I race in, we have a standing rule.
If as the lead car, you made a move that causes the car behind you to go off track, or you collided, you slow down, let the other car catch up and fall in behind you and start racing again. We even do this when we know it was the back car that hit us.. Just relieves all the arguments..
because in the end, it really is Just a game among friends.

Sim racing can be intense and tempers get out of hand real quick.. ( I know, I've lost my temper on a few occasions, when I shouldn't have )
but it's not like real racing when we can't just shift our eyes, or do a quick head turn to see where everyone is..
So some compromise from everyone is needed.

Redslayer
11-07-2015, 07:13
It really depends on a bunch of variables.

But basically, contrary to what many people seem to think online, if someone gets so much as a bumper next to you (I.E. The front of their front wheel, at the back of your rear wheel) before you enter the braking zone you should be leaving them room. A lot of people online feel that if you aren't right beside them before they start to brake they can just chop your nose off and then cry about being wrecked. But that isn't how racing works in real life. (Well, actually, It is sometimes lol, wreck and crying both :P ).

This varies on the type of corner though. Take the inner loop on Watkins Glen for example, if someone is any less than half a car on you, they should be backing out. And if they have a half a car on you or more, you should either back out, or not cry if you crash. Because that type of corner is just a disaster waiting to happen 2 wide. Any Z shaped turns are the same rule. But any C shaped turns, a bumper is enough.

That said, if you're already in the braking zone and someone stuffs it in under you when no part of their car was next to you, it's 100% their fault if you collide. And if they aren't beside you before you start to turn your car, and they stuff it in (intentionally lol), they are a jackass.

Incidentally, if you're in a corner, and someone manages to get under you mid corner, then that means you slid up/wide or just took a poor line, OR they just got a good run, and you have a responsibility not to chop their nose off on corner exit. A lot of people will make passes on the straight by setting people up on corner exit. If he had so much as a bumper on you and you cut him off on corner exit, he had a right to be mad. If he had wrecked you, it would have been your fault.

Fact of the matter is, in real racing, there is no "lay over and die" spot. You race as hard as possible, even if it means being side by side for 20 laps lol.

The number one reason I don't race with randoms(excluding wreckers), is people have this weird sense of entitlement, like they "Own" a corner unless you meet their requirements. But the fact of the matter is, if any part of their car is beside you before the braking zone, you should be expecting them to be next to you in the corner. And if you don't, and you crash it's 100% your own fault. Also, they feel that when the roles are reversed, and they are passing, that you should just roll over and give them the position if they get next to you. Also not the case. And you'll almost never see this in any non team closely matched cars in real life, unless it's early in a long race. If you can maintain position next to them, then that's exactly what you should be doing. But, you have to give them fair room.

Most of those same people are the ones that say damage models don't matter because you shouldn't be crashing anyway lol.

There are obviously exceptions to every rule, some corners just don't work 2 wide, and someone needs to back out. That's when the "half car" rule comes into play. Just use common sense and you'll be fine.

Additionally :

Most of these passes would anger the self entitled elitist "sim racers" that you often run into online lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgodvoRRD2Y

As would many of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5oHOzAaAGw the entire latter half of this vid shows that the imaginary racing etiquette people preach about doesn't really exist in real racing. (around 3:48 specifically, most of the people online would chop the nose of your car off and say it was your fault if you were the inside car)

All that said, I've met a lot of good guys online racing over the years. If you can find yourself a good group, stick with them. Because racing with randoms is just inevitably going to end badly, one way or the other. And don't chop peoples noses off on corner exit lol.

tgrey
12-07-2015, 13:55
it's not like real racing when we can't just shift our eyes, or do a quick head turn to see where everyone is..
So some compromise from everyone is needed.

It's also not like real racing when if we bump into someone we need to worry about them making it home at the end of the day. Most people tend to push sims just a *LITTLE* bit further, because there is always a reset button if you need it.

I've only done a few online races so far, and I consider myself on the higher end of the low end of the skill spectrum... but I try my hardest to keep it clean. Unfortunately sometimes that's just not in the cards. Apologies ahead of time to anyone out there I run in to =\

bigair199
12-07-2015, 16:56
It really depends on a bunch of variables.

But basically, contrary to what many people seem to think online, if someone gets so much as a bumper next to you (I.E. The front of their front wheel, at the back of your rear wheel) before you enter the braking zone you should be leaving them room. A lot of people online feel that if you aren't right beside them before they start to brake they can just chop your nose off and then cry about being wrecked. But that isn't how racing works in real life. (Well, actually, It is sometimes lol, wreck and crying both :P ).

This varies on the type of corner though. Take the inner loop on Watkins Glen for example, if someone is any less than half a car on you, they should be backing out. And if they have a half a car on you or more, you should either back out, or not cry if you crash. Because that type of corner is just a disaster waiting to happen 2 wide. Any Z shaped turns are the same rule. But any C shaped turns, a bumper is enough.

That said, if you're already in the braking zone and someone stuffs it in under you when no part of their car was next to you, it's 100% their fault if you collide. And if they aren't beside you before you start to turn your car, and they stuff it in (intentionally lol), they are a jackass.

Incidentally, if you're in a corner, and someone manages to get under you mid corner, then that means you slid up/wide or just took a poor line, OR they just got a good run, and you have a responsibility not to chop their nose off on corner exit. A lot of people will make passes on the straight by setting people up on corner exit. If he had so much as a bumper on you and you cut him off on corner exit, he had a right to be mad. If he had wrecked you, it would have been your fault.

Fact of the matter is, in real racing, there is no "lay over and die" spot. You race as hard as possible, even if it means being side by side for 20 laps lol.

The number one reason I don't race with randoms(excluding wreckers), is people have this weird sense of entitlement, like they "Own" a corner unless you meet their requirements. But the fact of the matter is, if any part of their car is beside you before the braking zone, you should be expecting them to be next to you in the corner. And if you don't, and you crash it's 100% your own fault. Also, they feel that when the roles are reversed, and they are passing, that you should just roll over and give them the position if they get next to you. Also not the case. And you'll almost never see this in any non team closely matched cars in real life, unless it's early in a long race. If you can maintain position next to them, then that's exactly what you should be doing. But, you have to give them fair room.

Most of those same people are the ones that say damage models don't matter because you shouldn't be crashing anyway lol.

There are obviously exceptions to every rule, some corners just don't work 2 wide, and someone needs to back out. That's when the "half car" rule comes into play. Just use common sense and you'll be fine.

Additionally :

Most of these passes would anger the self entitled elitist "sim racers" that you often run into online lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgodvoRRD2Y

As would many of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5oHOzAaAGw the entire latter half of this vid shows that the imaginary racing etiquette people preach about doesn't really exist in real racing. (around 3:48 specifically, most of the people online would chop the nose of your car off and say it was your fault if you were the inside car)

All that said, I've met a lot of good guys online racing over the years. If you can find yourself a good group, stick with them. Because racing with randoms is just inevitably going to end badly, one way or the other. And don't chop peoples noses off on corner exit lol.

I appreciate your opinion on this, and honestly I'm glad I asked because there seems to be some varying opinions. Maybe we can all learn something from this I guess. I agree with you in general because if it was a straight and he had his nose under me for the inside line I wouldn't contest it and let him have the position going into the turn. This question was pretty specific to this turn or others like it because the nature of the corner and it's exit being designed the way it is.
The reason I generally give up the position is because even if I do have room to take the outside line in a turn it just results in the other driver pushing to hard and using me as a back board to keep themselves on the track and driving me in the dirt! lol

buggie_brain
12-07-2015, 20:50
I ask this because I try to be a clean racer but at the same time i'm not gonna roll over and give up a position just because he barely has the nose of his car under me in a corner. Here was the situation and you guy's tell me if I'm in the wrong or not.
We are at Willow Springs and we are in turn 2/3 in GT3 cars, the long right hand sweeping corner. He starts to stick his nose on the inside of me but I can still see at least half his car in my rear view mirror. I shut the door on corner exit and force him to back-off, which he proceeds to bad mouth the piss out of me and basically accusing me of driving dirty mainly because after that he starting over-driving the turns and lost by a considerable amount.
My question is at what point would you let off and give up the position? I feel like because I could see at least half his car in my mirror that he did not have himself far enough in there to have taken the position from me. Now just for the record I have raced cars before but on dirt where you have a good line of sight and better able to hear the location of the other car, so just looking for some clarification from other drivers on this!

If he had his nose on the inside I would have probably held my line on the outside. If you shut the door and hit him, probably your fault. If you didn't hit him, that's fine.

In that particular situation I would have held my line because the next corner is a slower left handed which you would have had the inside line for and probably come out in front if the same courtesy is shown.

Bubbs
12-07-2015, 21:37
For sure I'd have held my line like you did (maybe even given a little cheeky chop as well :P ). As others have said it's really difficult to judge where the other car is, because of the blind spots in this game. That's why I think those little position / proximity markers might be a wise idea. I'm not shelling out for F1 2015 so I don't know if they're in there, but they are in Driveclub (if I recall correctly).

I normally race the GT3s and for me overtaking is always best done into slow corners. The faster the corner, the more risky. I'll spend a lap or two following the guy (or gal) in front to work out their lines and braking points - it's normally pretty obvious if they are aware of their surroundings. Then, when I'm sure (or when I think I'm sure), I'll have a go. If you've got someone up your backside and you leave the door open then you're just asking to be taken out - this is more likely on sharp corners such as la source at spa, and turn 4 at silverstone.

Speaking of silverstone - if you watch last week's GP, you'll see that on lap 1, Hamilton got past Bottas at turn 4, because there was acres of space at the corner apex, and Bottas moved to take the normal line. If that had been a PCars race, then it'd have been a dead cert crash I think.

As others have said too, the big thing is awareness and racecraft. Racecraft isn't just driving quickly. It's being aware of who and what is around you, and keeping consistent braking points and lines.

I don't think the guy behind you had any case for complaint. It might be cheeky, perhaps, but you're the one in front. Very much a case of 'you back off or otherwise we are going to crash'. Just part of racing :)

Beatminister
12-07-2015, 22:33
I appreciate your opinion on this, and honestly I'm glad I asked because there seems to be some varying opinions.
I guess there are different opinions about this ever since people do car racing. And the old Roman chariot racer probably had such disputes already, too. Statements like "I would have been faster than him" or "He braked to early" (quote M.Schumacher) will always be made.
Personally I think the main responsability lies with the driver behind. You in front just drive your racing line, and if the guy behind you is not fast enough to squeeze through a (existing) gap, he has to wait. I can always get half next to a car driving into a turn, just by braking too late, but I know there wont be any room for me anymore at the apex, so I dont do it.

wyldanimal
13-07-2015, 05:13
I guess there are different opinions about this ever since people do car racing. And the old Roman chariot racer probably had such disputes already, too. Statements like "I would have been faster than him" or "He braked to early" (quote M.Schumacher) will always be made.
Personally I think the main responsability lies with the driver behind. You in front just drive your racing line, and if the guy behind you is not fast enough to squeeze through a (existing) gap, he has to wait. I can always get half next to a car driving into a turn, just by braking too late, but I know there wont be any room for me anymore at the apex, so I dont do it.

Exactly!

ralphy0502
13-07-2015, 07:56
As long as he had enough space to stay on track then it's fine. How ever if you "closed the door" by forcing him off the track then you would be in the wrong. As a general rule if your going round corners side by side then hold your line.

MrFlibble81
13-07-2015, 14:13
For me if my front wheel is level with the other persons back wheel then I've got that line and they need to hold whatever line they have because obviously they can't just turn in on me.

Thing is though for that to work, they need to be looking in their mirrors and that's a problem with PCARS because the mirrors seem to have one hell of a blind spot so I try and make sure they know I'm there by hanging back in their rear view mirror for a couple of corners before going for the overtake.

It does take two people to have an accident though -- one to be in the wrong place and one to not realize they're there.

Basically everyone has to be aware at all times of what's going on around them.

Nubooo
13-07-2015, 15:08
Difficult question, personally in racing games if someone's putting pressure on me I tend to leave more room for them as I don't want to get knocked off the track unless its the last lap, on the last lap I'm braking hard into most corners so people cant out brake me but that compromises exit, basically do your best to avoid contact, its much harder to do in a game then in real life (only speaking about karting experience)

Gejabo
13-07-2015, 20:09
I also leave a lot of room.
Last time it resulted in me getting a pennalty being in a (clean) battle and leaving tge track for a bit to avoid a collision. :(

GRTfast
13-07-2015, 23:51
In all the real racing I've ever done (karts, sport bikes, mx) the person in front has line choice and the person attempting the pass is responsible for making a clean pass. If you stick your nose in but aren't even with the vehicle you're trying to pass, and you end up getting the door closed on you at the apex, it's your fault.

wyldanimal
14-07-2015, 02:34
As long as he had enough space to stay on track then it's fine. How ever if you "closed the door" by forcing him off the track then you would be in the wrong. As a general rule if your going round corners side by side then hold your line.

Nope, If I'm braking for a corner, and then turning in to the Apex... and you stuck your nose under me, it's your fault..
I had the lead, I had the Line, it's my line not yours as you never had position to take it.

ralphy0502
14-07-2015, 12:30
Nope, If I'm braking for a corner, and then turning in to the Apex... and you stuck your nose under me, it's your fault..
I had the lead, I had the Line, it's my line not yours as you never had position to take it.

If you have already committed to the turn the yes totally agree.

Judging by his description it sounds like they have gone into the turn almost side by side..?

choupolo
14-07-2015, 13:46
There's also commonly in real life "racing incidents" where in the OPs situation, the line between who had the corner is blurred, and both will claim that the other misjudged it.

Both should then just apologise and carry on. "That's racing" is what they always say, hehe.

bigair199
15-07-2015, 21:20
If you have already committed to the turn the yes totally agree.

Judging by his description it sounds like they have gone into the turn almost side by side..?

No, we went into the turn nose to tail but he started to stick his nose under me through the center of the turn and when I didn't let up and give him the spot he hadn't earned, he started throwing a fit. Hey I make mistakes all the time on this game as far as learning the braking distance for each car and their tendencies so I accidentally hit people and when I do I feel like shit about it. It really sucks when someone is just trying to race you hard, you go into a left hand turn at Brno and all he does is touch your left rear corner and you both go off because neither cars forward momentum will give up enough to let you get separated and you get pissed even though the contact was very innocent. My attitude towards the races lately has been if there is more than 6-7 cars, say a full field of 10-16 cars, then I just start at the rear and watch the mayhem. I pass most of them and usually will end up in the top 5 or on the podium just by being patient. I may not win but it sure is a lot more fun than fighting one of them off just to try and race for last.
Just for the record my PSN handle is Stallard22 and if I have wrecked or wronged you then I am sorry. I am just trying to race hard and have fun but at the same time be competitive.

ralphy0502
16-07-2015, 07:58
No, we went into the turn nose to tail but he started to stick his nose under me through the center of the turn and when I didn't let up and give him the spot he hadn't earned, he started throwing a fit. Hey I make mistakes all the time on this game as far as learning the braking distance for each car and their tendencies so I accidentally hit people and when I do I feel like shit about it. It really sucks when someone is just trying to race you hard, you go into a left hand turn at Brno and all he does is touch your left rear corner and you both go off because neither cars forward momentum will give up enough to let you get separated and you get pissed even though the contact was very innocent. My attitude towards the races lately has been if there is more than 6-7 cars, say a full field of 10-16 cars, then I just start at the rear and watch the mayhem. I pass most of them and usually will end up in the top 5 or on the podium just by being patient. I may not win but it sure is a lot more fun than fighting one of them off just to try and race for last.
Just for the record my PSN handle is Stallard22 and if I have wrecked or wronged you then I am sorry. I am just trying to race hard and have fun but at the same time be competitive.

It sounds you did nothing wrong to me. If he was behind you going into the turn then its up to him to make sure you don't collide (generally speaking). Did he basically go for a gap that wasn't really there?

ElectricBlues85
16-07-2015, 08:59
I think when the lead car is taking TT lines (Curb on entry - apex curb - curb on exit) it often seems to the chase car that there is plenty of space up the inside. So why not fling it in and see what happens? Never going to end well once the lead car turns in.

If I'm the lead car I change my line most of the time to avoid this happening. I often visualise the entrance to the corner in thirds. The outside third is my normal racing line, the middle third is my entry point if I've got a bogy on my 6 and the inside third is used in exceptional circumstances.

Using the middle third generally reduces the frequency in which the chase car will try something ballsy. Sure it will compromise my exit from the corner but I'd sooner leave the corner slowly than in bits and pieces.

Sure it's the responsibility of the chase car to not hit you but that doesn't mean that race craft is entirely down to him. You need to own the road :)