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AAR GTDon
17-07-2015, 09:34
None of the console racers have figured out that much of the excitement of real racing comes from open competition in organized graduated forms. Virtually all forms of real racing is basically divided up into regional, national, international, and world championship levels. The foundation for the top levels of racing is at the grass roots. Everyone from the bottom up is competing to get to the next level whether you are talking WRC, NASCAR, NHRA, FIA, AMA, MotoGP or whatever, each form of racing has its lower tiers who are competing to reach the top levels of their form of racing. Everyone is trying to become the fastest, and be in the world championship class is the point. This is what brings merit and glory to those who reach the ultimate level in their sport. This is what gets people excited! This is what brings the fans to the race track! This is what inspires the lowly underfunded privateer to take his shot! This is what console sim-racing needs more than anything else.

For example, the success of iRacing is mostly due to their uniformly graduated licensing and ratings system, and their international competitions. They figured out that just setting up hot lap competitions isnít something that will capture the fervor and competitive imaginations of racers; that for there to be real fun, you will have to structure things like real racing!

So this is my grass roots advice to ProjectCARS and its competitors. If you want people to become addicted to simulation racing, then mimic why people are addicted to real racing. Itís all about the competitive fire!

Charles Gillen
17-07-2015, 09:54
So you say that "none" of the console racers get these facts you've laid out? Thats a very broad statement. Care to walk it back just a tad? I'm just sayin.....

Charles

AAR GTDon
17-07-2015, 10:34
Not at all. PCARS as much as I like it has done nothing in this regard. But neither has Forza or Gran Turismo.

It is a glaring omission that none of the console Sims have official races or sanctioned events apart from hot lapping challenges. It's ironically missing a very obvious target market, i.e. racing fans.

Charles Gillen
17-07-2015, 11:34
Oh, my bad, when you said "console racers" you were referring to games, not actual people. I misunderstood the post. Appologies and please disregard my question.

Charles

AAR GTDon
17-07-2015, 13:36
No problem.

Staying on point, I think the powers that be in PCARS should take note of this. As it stands they really haven't done anything new to set themselves apart. What they have done is copy and improve the same old things that the others have been doing for years. I.e., better career modes, smarter A.I., hot lapping leader boards, increased multiplayer grids, weather cycles, day night cycles, more tracks, car leveling, better tuning, better physics and graphics, etc., but these are all the same old things that Forza and Gran Turismo have done too to various degrees. It's good to improve such features, but is it breaking new ground? Is it revolutionary? Is it blazing new trails in the genre and making you really stand out from the crowd? No, no, and no is the answer.

So what's left to improve or do? All of these features are great to have, but are they going to inspire a continuous addiction to the game, or will they eventually be taken for granted with a long yawn? Are these tried and true improved features going to extend the shelf life of the game, or bore you to death eventually?

People are already somewhat bored with PCARS to say nothing of FM5 or GT6. Why? Because it is the same old same old. Nothing really new. Nothing to get the competitive juices flowing. Been there done that. Essentially console simulations have no end game, no real collective purpose, no payoff to justify extended investments of ones gaming time.

If there were Official leagues, and Official races, organized and monitored by ProjectCARS, with prizes and recognition on an international scale, you know, like in real racing, then you'd really have something that would have staying power and rabid fans.

Whichever console sim does this first, will rise above all the rest.

Ian Bell
17-07-2015, 13:39
No problem.

Staying on point, I think the powers that be in PCARS should take note of this. As it stands they really haven't done anything new to set themselves apart. What they have done is copy and improve the same old things that the others have been doing for years. I.e., better career modes, smarter A.I., hot lapping leader boards, increased multiplayer grids, weather cycles, day night cycles, more tracks, car leveling, better tuning, better physics and graphics, etc., but these are all the same old things that Forza and Gran Turismo have done too to various degrees. It's good to improve such features, but is it breaking new ground? Is it revolutionary? Is it blazing new trails in the genre and making you really stand out from the crowd? No, no, and no is the answer.

So what's left to improve or do? All of these features are great to have, but are they going to inspire a continuous addiction to the game, or will they eventually be taken for granted with a long yawn? Are these tried and true improved features going to extend the shelf life of the game, or bore you to death eventually?

People are already somewhat bored with PCARS to say nothing of FM5 or GT6. Why? Because it is the same old same old. Nothing really new. Nothing to get the competitive juices flowing. Been there done that. Essentially console simulations have no end game, no real collective purpose, no payoff to justify extended investments of ones gaming time.

If there were Official leagues, and Official races, organized and monitored by ProjectCARS, with prizes and recognition on an international scale, you know, like in real racing, then you'd really have something that would have staying power and rabid fans.

Whichever console sim does this first, will rise above all the rest.

Sorry but absolutely wrong.

We've not been copying and pasting what others have done, we pioneered a lot of it.

This is pretty much the same team that made GTR, GT Legends and GTR2 among much else. With those game alone we created much of what others are doing today.

AAR GTDon
17-07-2015, 14:02
Hello Ian, thanks for the reply, and while what you say is true, it doesn't address my point. It's not ground breaking. It's not new. It's rehashing what has been albeit in an improved form, but nothing more.

The broader point is how to set yourself apart in such a way that you become the console sim most people go to for their competitive fun. If there is no organized competition, like in real racing, then what's the point of a racing simulation? All you really have is a cool performing simulation without a sustaining purpose, and it is most often in the purpose where something great is lost or found.

So far, actual organized racing is the only area that is absent from console simulations. It's the one area where you could set yourself apart and give ProjectCARS the kind of long lived attention it deserves. Otherwise, it's just another pretty car game going nowhere fast. Cool to play around with for a few weeks before the next version of XYZ is released so we can amuse ourselves for another few weeks, and so on and so on.

Ian Bell
17-07-2015, 14:06
Hello Ian, thanks for the reply, and while what you say is true, it doesn't address my point. It's not ground breaking. It's not new. It's rehashing what has been albeit in an improved form, but nothing more.

The broader point is how to set yourself apart in such a way that you become the console sim most people go to for their competitive fun. If there is no organized competition, like in real racing, then what's the point of a racing simulation? All you really have is a cool performing simulation without a sustaining purpose, and it is most often in the purpose where something great is lost or found.

So far, actual organized racing is the only area that is absent from console simulations. It's the one area where you could set yourself apart and give ProjectCARS the kind of long lived attention it deserves. Otherwise, it's just another pretty car game going nowhere fast. Cool to play around with for a few weeks before the next version of XYZ is released so we can amuse ourselves for another few weeks, and so on and so on.

OK, I'll grant you we might be 'rehashing' a lot of what we pioneered for our own new gen work. I think that's fair.

The actual organised racing part constitutes 3% of our users. The people who are part of such don't seem to know that but it's the truth. The very vast majority of users are those who like to hop in and out of an online race now and again, maybe add a few friends. For this reason we've been prioritising work in that area.

On consoles things are much more complicated for non 1st party devs like ourselves. Dedicated servers being cleared is a total nightmare to put it mildly. That's just one among a ton of problems.

joking_aura
17-07-2015, 14:30
Ian I am one of the many users you are referring to who like to pop in and out of multiplayer races. One thing you could provide that would make finding good lobbies would be to allow a filter to find only lobbies my PSN friends are already driving in. This would make it much easier to link up with the great drivers I have came across to date.

AAR GTDon
17-07-2015, 14:37
Thanks for the reply again Ian. I see your points, and get your meaning fully. I've had similar words with those at T10, and they had similar responses. I don't believe your position to be without merit or at all invalid, nor theirs. However what I do believe is that old saying, "If you build it, they will come." Meaning, while you can say there is no market for mimicking organized racing at present, it doesn't mean that a market can not be created and cultivated. That kind of objection would disallow many popular items to exist today. For example, a few years ago there was no market for hybrid cars let alone racing, but companies like Toyota soldiered on and basically created one.

All I'm saying is that organized racing is ironically ignored by all the console simulation racing games. It shouldn't be, but it is. You can say there is no market for it, but then you have to explain the rise and sustained success of iRacing.

The first console sim to bring competitive organized racing to their platform, will have the one thing the others don't. A perpetual purpose for years to come, just like real racing.

SpeedFreakDTM
18-07-2015, 08:40
I don't need any structured racing events. That's sounds really boring to me. I'd like a playlist, where I don't have to pick cars or tracks, instead the server can pick.

Hopefully we will get some kind of quick race playlist, with out qualifying with a random grid.

AAR GTDon
18-07-2015, 13:45
lol, yeah, "Competitive organized racing is so 20th century, so boring. Don't get me wrong I love to watch F1, where I get to see the best in the world compete in organized seasonal racing, but why would I want to see that in simulation racing, how boring." lol

It's absurdly funny how many people will cry and scream all day long at Ian Bell for more realistic this and more realistic that, but in the end not want to take it to the ultimate level of actually creating a realistic racing experiencing, by of all things, going racing! lol So stupid.

"I just want to mindlessly do my own thing, and I want it to be automated. I don''t want to get involved with anything. I don't want to pick cars, or tracks, or types of racing, or rules. I don't want to have real purpose playing my game. I just want to zone out and look at the pretty colors. In fact, I don't even want to drive let alone race. Let someone else do that, I'd be happy if the computer just did everything for me." lol

I kid, I kid! But you all get the point. A proper take on this subject would be to say that the ProjectCARS "tent" is a big one, so big that it can easily accommodate the mindless hot lapper droning around and around by himself, as well as those who seek organized competitive racing.

There's about 30,000 racers on iRacing (maybe more now) who find competitive organized racing anything but boring. So how did iRacing do this? How is it that they have full grids nearly 24/7 in multiple classes? They did it through, automation! They have a system that is fully autonomous which also records all the results and laps so that each racer can be tracked by their progress. As you race in whatever classes you want, you gain ratings points and higher licenses and eventually gain enough skill to qualify for money paying pro-level events. Events that actual professional level real race car drivers are seen to compete in! This is simulation racing with real purpose! And there is no reason that the super smart people here at PCARS can not do something very similar for console racing.

TRC GeorgiaDawg
19-07-2015, 23:48
OK, I'll grant you we might be 'rehashing' a lot of what we pioneered for our own new gen work. I think that's fair.

The actual organised racing part constitutes 3% of our users. The people who are part of such don't seem to know that but it's the truth. The very vast majority of users are those who like to hop in and out of an online race now and again, maybe add a few friends. For this reason we've been prioritising work in that area.

First, I want to give you absolute respect for the fact that you're willing to get involved in the forums at all. As I'm sure many have said, you don't see that many places.

A little background. I've been playing racing games competitively online since the early days of Project Gotham 2 on the first Xbox. A little golf here and occasional other games, but 99 percent whatever the racer of the moment was. PGR2 is still to many long time Xbox racers the best racing game ever released. Also played a ton of Forza 2 and to much lesser extents each following release. Forza 2 was to me, and many others, the high mark of that franchise. Competition with those games was at a all time high. There were multiple professional gaming series doing racing competitions in both games and huge rabid communities built around each game.

While I think Don's requests are probably misguided. I don't think the consoles need or will work with something as structured as iRacing. I do think more could be done to create some of the competitive fire that he speaks of across the board. As far as organized leagues go, I think the priority is to give the community the tools it needs to effectively run their own series and they will build it and people will come. I'll defer to Don on what those needs are. Whether it's room hosting options or replay needs or something, he's probably one of the two people I'd ask about the features needed to make it easy on the user to create and run a online racing league.

My perspective is more from the group you referred to. The other 97%. One of the main reasons I never got into the IFCA (which used to be the main series ran by all the top Forza teams) or even iRacing is because I'm just never going to schedule my time around playing a video game. And while I love to race. I don't love jumping through hoops to find a good one. Which brings me to the leaderboards.


That's what really made both PGR2 and Forza 2 the long sustained successes they were. They had LB's for everything and what it inspired was competition on all levels. The top players would compete for the top of the boards. Then others would compete just to beat friends. Still others would compete to try and put different cars as high as they could. I remember helping guys out on Forza 2 with setups that were thrilled because they had gotten in top 3000 and beat their buddy. This even extended beyond hotlapping and into their career modes which had full LB support. Which brought into a new focus on consistency over multiple laps. FM2 even had mini endurance races of about a hour with leaderboards.

I understand there are limitations as a non first party developer. Which means there's never going to be a leaderboard system as robust as those first party titles. A lot of things I think could inspire competition to grow seem to me as if they would be simple as they're mostly taking advantage of data that's already there and simple. First, a friends list filter is a must. People love to compete with their friends. Second, I would put all LB information on the web for the PS4 and Xbox 1 as it is for the PC. This would give a site like Forzastats.com the resources it needs to collect it's data. If you have never visited his site, you should, it's slick and very well done. All the stats in one place and team competition. It was the kind of thing Turn 10 should have been doing and improving instead of ignoring. Third thing I'd do that should be simple is to introduce class based roll up leaderboards and a overall time trial ranking. Gives incentive for people to hotlap every track at least in one class. And would draw in a huge influx of on the fence Forza players IMO.

I'll close by saying bravo on the game so far. I'm very interested to see what direction the game goes moving forward. Physics and graphics are great. But to truly rise to the top of this market I think a game is going to have to inspire it's players to compete.

Pink_650S
20-07-2015, 01:07
Can the OP give some examples of what he wants to see in game in this regard?

AAR GTDon
20-07-2015, 04:17
Most of what TRC GeorgiaDawg says I support and can confirm. He’s very fast and comes from the hot lapper side of the equation, whereas I come from the league racing side. So we have different interests in common with the same game(s). ( I go a bit farther back in time having started with GT1 and then FM1 on-line.) Forza 1 actually had the most intense hot lapping competition of any racing game to this day, and extended the intensity early on in FM2 as the Dawg has noted.

The birth of GeorgiaDawg’s own club, the once famous TRC (TimeRacingClub) was during the FM1 era. In fact, most of the more well known Forza clubs began during that intense time of hot lap competition. They formed because of the way T10 originally configured Forza, which was to host club options and management so that not only could you form a car club, you could recruit, promote, and compete as a group. The entire effort of the club was applied to leader board stats in multiple and cumulative ways so that at a glance you could not only see who was on top individually by friends and favorites, but also as a car club in multiple categories.

The hot lapping competition raged for the entire life of Forza 1 with hardly a pause. But with the destruction of the club system in FM2, T10 essentially brought the hot lap club wars to an unpopular end. It’s never been the same since even though a modified club system was reinstituted in later versions of Forza. It never worked as well as it did with FM1, because the efforts of the club team members were not cumulative or added together in the way it was for FM1.

You have to understand that at that time, the clubs like TRC, PpR, VVV, etc were gaining such immense popularity that they were becoming as big as the game itself in terms of brand recognition. As you might imagine T10 and Microsoft were at the very least not interested or impressed by this, and some say even threatened by it. They were not interested in creating any sort of subculture or cottage industry that might otherwise subordinate their product in any way. Some say it was for this reason that the club system was dismantled and never brought back to its full original form.

But to answer the question what would I want in PCARS that exemplifies what I’ve been advocating, it would be features that support and promote grass roots competition be it hot lapping or racing.

The concept is simple sociology. Human beings like belonging to a group , pack, clan, gang, click, family, etc. They like having a common goal and derive enormous value from shared achievements. People simply want to “belong” to something that has meaning, and is worth their time that they can be a contributing part of. Put these options into place so that the fans can organize themselves for whatever charms them be it hot lapping or racing.

As GeorigiaDawg has noted much of this can be created through the use of extensive integrated leader boards. But you will also need a club option/system to go with it. Some might say why? You can setup your own league website like the IFCA and your own clubs like TRC, and do everything outside of ProjectCARS. And though this is true, and what the remnant clubs of FM1 were forced to do, it wasn’t what we wanted to do. The difference is if these features and options are an integrated part of the game, it makes it “OFFICIAL.” Being Official makes all the difference in the world, because it brings a value and importance that can’t be gotten any other way. When there is the stamp of “Official” beside something, it means more to everyone. This greater value helps fuel and motivate competitors to compete because they know it really means something. It draws more people to the activity because they also know its, “Official.” But only the game developer can institute this all important ‘Official’ aspect that gives greater meaning to everyone. This is why I was saying that PCARS should have Official organized racing. It should want to be in control of Official races just as much as it is in control of Official hot lapping. People want to see who the fastest hot lapper is, and racer, and how they might measure up to the best in the world.

So here are the suggested items to make PCARS more popular and fun, while at the same time placing PCARS in a league by themselves heads and shoulders above anyone in the console world:

1.Club system
2.Fully integrated leaderboards with cumulative scoring for clubs
3.Officially managed race events
4.Recognition; promote events, offer prizes, and officially recognize the drivers and clubs

Do these 4 things, and PCARS will go from “alsoran” to the ‘cut above the rest’ racing simulation everyone wants to be a part of.

Fan the flames of competition, and people will come from miles around to see what’s on fire.

AAR CobraJet
20-07-2015, 15:21
I feel the same as AAR GTDon and TRC GeorgiaDawg. I can vouch for both of them since their accomplishments have all been well documented within the "racing" community. It was TRC that got me hooked on competitive racing when I was given an unexpected-open-arms welcome to one of their spec racing series practices in Forza2. Uhm...got bit by the bug. TRC then directed me to an organization...a worldwide organization that hosted numerous "official" events to participate in, where I could see how I stacked up. That's where I met GTDon, who has given more to the racing community than any single developer has ever had to offer.

Now my time was spent testing, tuning, practicing, and scrapping for that "one more tenth", so that I could qualify and best someone else. Also, to see where I figured into the worldwide rankings in hopes of reaching the pinnacle of racing...a championship. I never reached the dream...but I'm still waiting for that one racing game to fulfill my desire to work towards that reality. Turn10 couldn't provide it, heck they dumped all over community function...Polyphony Digital couldn't do it...Gran Turismo 6 is far too interested in delivering fantasy cars to the grammar school kids. Can Slightly Mad and Company deliver what these others refuse? My feeling is that everyone who likes this game wants THIS game to be the one to do it! Racers "want" to invest time into working from the bottom up...there's something to prove in how fast you are or how many races you've won, or the solid team of drivers that you've put together to compete with the best of the best.

Replayability is where it's at when an investment of time is made. I want to feel like I'm actually "working toward" something rather than collecting checkmarks and paintchips. And hey, it may be a challenge to advance through an actual career, but THAT'S what's going to keep me sliding that disc into my console and keep trying! In the real world, every champion's success story has been built upon that theory.

FACT0RY PIL0T
20-07-2015, 19:25
Mehhh dont care for there format don't have a bunch of time to waist in lower slower cars to get my way into F1, especially when your already on pace in there open F1 practice.

My op... iRacing = waisted money and time with there license, move up format.....

AAR GTDon
20-07-2015, 20:09
Mehhh dont care for there format don't have a bunch of time to waist in lower slower cars to get my way into F1, especially when your already on pace in there open F1 practice.

My op... iRacing = waisted money and time with there license, move up format.....

No no, let's be fair, the correct formula is iRacing = effort + time = achievement = prize money

I don't see anything wrong with this, and nothing that can't be duplicated in console racing.

xautos
21-07-2015, 07:31
None of the console racers have figured out that much of the excitement of real racing comes from open competition in organized graduated forms. Virtually all forms of real racing is basically divided up into regional, national, international, and world championship levels. The foundation for the top levels of racing is at the grass roots. Everyone from the bottom up is competing to get to the next level whether you are talking WRC, NASCAR, NHRA, FIA, AMA, MotoGP or whatever, each form of racing has its lower tiers who are competing to reach the top levels of their form of racing. Everyone is trying to become the fastest, and be in the world championship class is the point. This is what brings merit and glory to those who reach the ultimate level in their sport. This is what gets people excited! This is what brings the fans to the race track! This is what inspires the lowly underfunded privateer to take his shot! This is what console sim-racing needs more than anything else.

For example, the success of iRacing is mostly due to their uniformly graduated licensing and ratings system, and their international competitions. They figured out that just setting up hot lap competitions isn’t something that will capture the fervor and competitive imaginations of racers; that for there to be real fun, you will have to structure things like real racing!

So this is my grass roots advice to ProjectCARS and its competitors. If you want people to become addicted to simulation racing, then mimic why people are addicted to real racing. It’s all about the competitive fire!

one can get competitive fire from just racing against others in the thick of the action, week in week out, theres nothing quite like being involved in an adrenaline junkies dream of overtaking, being overtaken, all within centermeters or fully rubbing against each others cars. the more you slow each other up to win the race the more gate crashers join the party, problem is some of those fighting have no sense of humor to gate crashers joining the party. all they want is their own private fight and to ignore other elements, and then it turns into a disaster. you see it in nascar and the recent indycar race, specifically carpenter and karam. even in the aftermath with all that buzz still going, people end up in fist fights because of how much passion one has for their sport.

sometimes its not always about how far up the ladder you get, sometimes its just about the racing rush one can get each week.

AAR GTDon
21-07-2015, 12:26
one can get competitive fire from just racing against others in the thick of the action, week in week out, theres nothing quite like being involved in an adrenaline junkies dream of overtaking, being overtaken, all within centermeters or fully rubbing against each others cars. the more you slow each other up to win the race the more gate crashers join the party, problem is some of those fighting have no sense of humor to gate crashers joining the party. all they want is their own private fight and to ignore other elements, and then it turns into a disaster. you see it in nascar and the recent indycar race, specifically carpenter and karam. even in the aftermath with all that buzz still going, people end up in fist fights because of how much passion one has for their sport.

sometimes its not always about how far up the ladder you get, sometimes its just about the racing rush one can get each week.

You seem to be making my point. When the stakes are high, or the highest, and there is money and even life and limb on the line, the pressure is off the scale. We can never reach that level of reality, but we can get closer is my point. I've had many a club and league race that had my hart pounding. But you get used to that level until you go to a national event, or intentional, then it cranks up to a whole new level again. Competing is what gives you this high at any level, but if you want the full dose, you need an open world championship where the very best can be challenged by those who would like to be.

TRC GeorgiaDawg
21-07-2015, 16:25
The birth of GeorgiaDawg’s own club, the once famous TRC (TimeRacingClub) was during the FM1 era. In fact, most of the more well known Forza clubs began during that intense time of hot lap competition. They formed because of the way T10 originally configured Forza, which was to host club options and management so that not only could you form a car club, you could recruit, promote, and compete as a group. The entire effort of the club was applied to leader board stats in multiple and cumulative ways so that at a glance you could not only see who was on top individually by friends and favorites, but also as a car club in multiple categories.



We're still a little famous. TRC LocoArmen is our latest finalist going to Silverstone for GT Academy. Go Loco!! :)

Which is another idea any racing sim that's trying to build itself should look at. Finding a partner race team in the real world to run a competition in game with the prize being a chance to score a real life race seat. Nissan has had some good success with former Academy winners. Would seem like a win win for everyone involved to have a Project Cars Academy.


Glad you brought the legends of the clubs into the debate. For whatever reason I never liked FM1. I bought it day 1 and didn't like it from the start. Think main thing was the livery loading merry go round whenever you tried to join a lobby. At the same time PGR2 was such a great pure racing game I couldn't put it down to the tune of nearly 18,000 online races. But I missed out on the car club battle which is my only regret. Never even gave the game enough of a chance to really understand what the clubs even were. But oh well, there were still great races to be had on PGR2 right up to the day they pulled the plug on the servers. If they were to add a Forza 1 type club structure to this game competition would literally explode. It's strange to me that in this era where everything else is all connected and social that all games don't have more of a team/group/club element to them

AAR GTDon
22-07-2015, 01:15
We're still a little famous. TRC LocoArmen is our latest finalist going to Silverstone for GT Academy. Go Loco!! :)

Which is another idea any racing sim that's trying to build itself should look at. Finding a partner race team in the real world to run a competition in game with the prize being a chance to score a real life race seat. Nissan has had some good success with former Academy winners. Would seem like a win win for everyone involved to have a Project Cars Academy.


Glad you brought the legends of the clubs into the debate. For whatever reason I never liked FM1. I bought it day 1 and didn't like it from the start. Think main thing was the livery loading merry go round whenever you tried to join a lobby. At the same time PGR2 was such a great pure racing game I couldn't put it down to the tune of nearly 18,000 online races. But I missed out on the car club battle which is my only regret. Never even gave the game enough of a chance to really understand what the clubs even were. But oh well, there were still great races to be had on PGR2 right up to the day they pulled the plug on the servers. If they were to add a Forza 1 type club structure to this game competition would literally explode. It's strange to me that in this era where everything else is all connected and social that all games don't have more of a team/group/club element to them

Now you're talking my tune Dawg! Polyphony was the first on a console to make the logical conclusion and connection between the virtual racer and the real racer. That there was good reason to connect the two, and by doing so infusing virtual reality with a dose of reality. I give them full credit for GT Acadamy and the amped up popularity it has brought to Gran Turismo. It shows that there is a creative way to bring greater meaning to the sport/hobby of simulation racing. Did they go all the way with official races? No, they went the hot lap route, which is fine, or better than nothing.

The concept really isn't radical. Many high end simulations are used to improve real driver skill/pilot skill, or is even mandated to get a real license. There is a natural link or cross over between the two that benefits both sides.

Point is, many more things can be done that are not being done. Things like sanctioned races, official licenses, official teams etc. Give the console sim-racer meaningful long term reasons to participate and compete. Create not just a single player career mode against inept AI, create a full blown racing season against other humans!

Racing game developers are fond of touting how realistic their game is, and detailed the graphics are, and subtle the physics are, and how they have tried to give you a sensation of being in a racing experience, but the funny thing is, they never actually create the racing experience! Nothing is official, nothing organized, no seasonal series, no graduated levels of competition, nothing whatsoever to do with racing is ever truly offered. And yet, they still pretend they are racing simulators. Well, except for T10, they never admit to that. lol

But you get my point don't you. The essence of a racing simulator should be about, racing! Duh!

It's so funny, because it is so obvious! The one element missing from all the simulation console racing franchises is what their name suggests they should mostly be about, RACING! lol Instead we are stuck with every other form of "car culture" you can think of besides actually racing. lol How ironic is that? lol

AAR GTDon
06-08-2015, 17:49
I hate to say it, but it appears T10 may have finally figured out the correct approach for simulation racing, which is to have organized racing. It is ironically the last avenue left to explore, and the most ignored feature of all in console sim-racing.

I know many here doubted it could even be done on console, but FM6 is about to prove that theory wrong. And they are doing it in an iRacing-like fashion.

http://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/fm6_gamescom_2015

Come on ProjectCARS, time to bring your A-Game.