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View Full Version : Street Car tire physics. HUGE improvement since patch 2.5 on PC. Major respect!



bmanic
30-07-2015, 12:01
I don't usually create these kinds of threads but now I feel like it is warranted.

Doug, I do not know what you did to the street car tires or when they were improved but they are RIDICULOUSLY GOOD now!

In one single patch you've basically remedied absolutely every single point of critique I had with the various street cars in the physics part of the WMD forum. I mean.. take the Caterham R500 where I was pretty active. I critiqued it's inability to be agile and twitchy.. I called it lazy and wobbly (because it was!). Now it is a car that I feel is 100% spot on simulation of the car! It turns in immediately. It is wicked agile and wicked fast. It's exactly what I had always hoped it would be!

I've kind of avoided these cars since release as I was never quite happy with them. One of the issues was the lack of turn-in while the weight shifted forward, like under a bit of breaking. Well that problem is completely fixed now and feels wonderfully natural (an area where other sims go way over board.. particularly iRacing seems to suffer from the "shift the weight forward just a tiny bit while turning -> spin" problem). Throwing the weight around with the BMW 1M is a lot of fun and if you do it just right you'll end up with better laptimes.

The street cars of Project CARS was always been the weakest link in my opinion. Well those days are over! Project CARS just rocketed itself to the absolute top of the heap in this category as well! Now I can't wait to get more street cars into the game!

Well done. Bloody well done!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

amazed
30-07-2015, 12:41
Looking forward to this being implemented on the consoles in 3.0!:yes:

TrevorAustin
30-07-2015, 13:10
I don't usually create these kinds of threads but now I feel like it is warranted.

Doug, I do not know what you did to the street car tires or when they were improved but they are RIDICULOUSLY GOOD now!

In one single patch you've basically remedied absolutely every single point of critique I had with the various street cars in the physics part of the WMD forum. I mean.. take the Caterham R500 where I was pretty active. I critiqued it's inability to be agile and twitchy.. I called it lazy and wobbly (because it was!). Now it is a car that I feel is 100% spot on simulation of the car! It turns in immediately. It is wicked agile and wicked fast. It's exactly what I had always hoped it would be!

I've kind of avoided these cars since release as I was never quite happy with them. One of the issues was the lack of turn-in while the weight shifted forward, like under a bit of breaking. Well that problem is completely fixed now and feels wonderfully natural (an area where other sims go way over board.. particularly iRacing seems to suffer from the "shift the weight forward just a tiny bit while turning -> spin" problem). Throwing the weight around with the BMW 1M is a lot of fun and if you do it just right you'll end up with better laptimes.

The street cars of Project CARS was always been the weakest link in my opinion. Well those days are over! Project CARS just rocketed itself to the absolute top of the heap in this category as well! Now I can't wait to get more street cars into the game!

Well done. Bloody well done!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

Couldn't agree more, made a very similar post a few days ago. They've gone from undriveable, in any me as ningful way with pretty graphics to real fun in one hit.

Can't quite believe a new tyre has avhieved that, actually made me reconsider my nirmal real life tyres i nees to get this week, any chance you can get michelin to knock some up for me Doug?

unknwn
30-07-2015, 18:39
After all criticism about street cars having sloppy/soapy handling weren't without a reason, yet many users tried to find any justification possible for this feeling trying to prove that it's not a physics issue.

TrevorAustin
30-07-2015, 19:03
After all criticism about street cars having sloppy/soapy handling weren't without a reason, yet many users tried to find any justification possible for this feeling trying to prove that it's not a physics issue.

Can't disagree with that :) can't count the number of times i was told the R8 was supposed to handle like an overpowered range rover on soft setting air suspension:)

bmanic
31-07-2015, 00:26
After all criticism about street cars having sloppy/soapy handling weren't without a reason, yet many users tried to find any justification possible for this feeling trying to prove that it's not a physics issue.

There's also been a pretty large bunch of us pretty critical about the street tires over at the WMD forums over the past 2 years. I remember starting the "moose test" thread there trying to point out how flawed the transient grip was.. that is, the tires just didn't grip fast enough to feel natural so that you could quickly avoid obstacles. Now they do! The Caterham R500 thread is another classic where several of us pointed to multiple youtube videos of crazy handling Caterhams on tight slalom courses and stunt driving.. this was not possible until now! Now we finally have some truly exceptional tires for the street cars!

Mind you, this is exactly how "group think" works. Just look at any forums.. join the Assetto Corsa forums and see how many there think AC has the supreme godlike physics. Then take an ordinary street car for a drive and rapidly down shift a few times while driving less than 60 km/h. Yeah.. "realism".

Then go join iRacing and take some of their cars for a spin.. literally. :)

I'm quite confident in my feeling that Project CARS now not just has the best GT series and open wheel physics (though I still think the Formula A tires are utterly weird and not at all convincing) but now also has the best street car physics of any simulator to date. The only competing sim that I have not yet played enough (just the demo) is rFactor 2 so that one may still have an edge over pCars but nothing else does in my opinion. :D

Doug914
31-07-2015, 00:51
You wouldn't believe how small the change was, really. :) . It was something i'd moved towards before release (if you remember), but was afraid of going to far and having to reinvent things so close to release. Anyways, again, it shows the power of the seta model and how closely linked everything is in the carcass design. Just reitterating, though - No change to the grips was done to achieve this.

TrevorAustin
31-07-2015, 07:07
You wouldn't believe how small the change was, really. :) . It was something i'd moved towards before release (if you remember), but was afraid of going to far and having to revent things so close to release. Anyways, again, it shows the power of the seta model and how closely linked everything is in the carcass design. Just reitterating, though - No change to the grips was done to achieve this.

Are you able to explain the change and what it has done, or too closely tied to the tyre model? and compare ti a real life scenario? The change is truly phenomenal

Aritz
31-07-2015, 07:33
I remember a critical point where trying to fix straight stability, the tyres become too forgiving because the grip curve lost most of its peak and the car become boring and impossible to spin :(

The change was the tack lateral flexibility, wasn't it?

bmanic
31-07-2015, 14:44
You wouldn't believe how small the change was, really. :) . It was something i'd moved towards before release (if you remember), but was afraid of going to far and having to reinvent things so close to release. Anyways, again, it shows the power of the seta model and how closely linked everything is in the carcass design. Just reitterating, though - No change to the grips was done to achieve this.

Actually, I can very well imagine how small tweaks were responsible. Remember how some of us complained that a car was almost undrivable and made no sense, even though Casey or you had tweaked only a single parameter of the wheel and the tweaks was exceptionally tiny! Remember those days? :)

So yeah, I can very well believe that the tweak was small. With complex physical models this is always the case. I've played around with physical instrument models and amplifier models and they can easily "explode" even with the tiniest changes.. as the change cascades through the system.

bmanic
03-08-2015, 13:33
It's amazing how the tire update makes some cars a lot better and some still feel a bit "dead". I actually recognize, for the first time, some of the critiqued handling of the McLaren 12C-MP4. There's a strange unsatisfying handling characteristic of the car.. it's always a bit "weird" in how it is at the edge. Usually understeering but even if I tune it for oversteer the chassis somehow makes it slightly unexciting and "weird".

Driving the Lycan Hypersport thing you also feel like it was a slightly strange car.. it's ridiculously fast and "bling bling" but clearly not made for taking corners optimally. I do like it more than the McLaren 12C-MP4 though in it's handling. And finally comparing these two to a Pagani (either of the street cars) and you suddenly start grinning and know immediately why all the car nutters love driving the Pagani cars. They are simply amazing machines with ridiculously good chassis and tunability. You can make the Pagani understeer like crazy but it still feels like a nimble and very satisfying car. Or you can tweak it to be highly oversteery and still it all "makes sense" and you can go drifting like a trippin' Chris Harris.

In short: The more I drive the street cars, the more I am appreciating the nuances and complexity of the simulation (not just the tires). It's interesting how the improvements to the tires has "unveiled" the other underlying parts of the simulation. I mean, pCars was already very sensitive to setup changes but now I can feel even tiny tuning tweaks subtly change the handling of the car while still retaining the overall "feel" and character of the chassis.

I'm having more fun with the game than any other driving sim ever before! It is DEEEEEEEEP. It'll take me probably tens of thousands of hours to learn all the little handling secrets of the various cars. It's quickly becoming my desert island game (which used to be Sid Meier's Civilization IV).

Hlspwn
03-08-2015, 18:33
I'm having more fun with the game than any other driving sim ever before! It is DEEEEEEEEP. It'll take me probably tens of thousands of hours to learn all the little handling secrets of the various cars.

Could not agree more. Defiantly felt the difference on the R8, nice to know the road car tyres were tweaked, and it was not just the ffb change that made such a difference.

Looking forward to the LB wipe and setting some top times with the road cars.

Got some holiday time, so between project fish tank, and the dustbin lids, going to try and get some very missed game time in :D

Umer Ahmad
03-08-2015, 19:27
I tested the RUF RGT8 for a while Friday based on this thread.

I ran it @ Brno with the MEDIUM road tyre (not the All-Weather tyre nor the track-only tyre, but the one in the middle).

My goal was to get some Chris Harris style power-drifts going. I figured Brno would be a good test w/ its constant radius corners mostly 3rd gear. I upped the springs/suspension accordingly & disabled TC. Also infalted front and rears to 2bar-ish for more immediacy.

With fresh and slightly cool tyres it felt good, control-able oversteer. Had to tightened front dampers/suspension a little so the oversteer became more controlable, not spin me off-track. I had some good races with the AI @ 85%. I noticed that although the Optimal Tyre Temp indicator is ansolid green about 200F, the tyres slipped a lot more at this range and th engine "bogged" until the rears hooked up again. There was also little visual smoke oddly.

I learned to manage the rear temps better and kept them near 180f which was less green on the HUDs but i felt less slip, more useable grip. So my suggestion would be to perhaps review the optimal temp indicator range for his medium compound, 200f should be orange-y i guess.

I took the same setup to Cali Hwy and i had less fun. It drove the first sectors decently but then sector 3 gets very high speed and the RGT8 on those mediums got dangerously squirely with little steering inputs at high speeds, also felt the car rotate when braking at high speeds (exiting the suspension bridge was hairy).

Umer Ahmad
03-08-2015, 19:38
Pretty sure i had TC disabled so the engine "bogging down" was confusing me. i would expect engine RPM to climb uner constant throttle as tyre slip increases. My diff was not locked, something moderate like 20acc/40dec/20preload.

Overall i did not find the change as "revolutionary" as bmanic. It's very possible these rgt8 mediums did not get any update this round.

Hlspwn
03-08-2015, 23:11
Overall i did not find the change as "revolutionary" as bmanic. It's very possible these rgt8 mediums did not get any update this round.

I am only going off feel, not sure what tires are on as I have no hud displayed. Tbh I think on reflection the FFB change does play a part as was swapping between default and classic. But for me the R8 v10 before 2.5 felt over exaggerated. The rears would break far two easily, and it was to alive, bit like driving a fat aerial atom. The real car can behave like this, but you would have to be very aggressive. Now it seems the rears dig in and traction will break only if you push to hard. Get mid apex and nail the throttle, and it just pulls through the corners.

Do not get me wrong, its a beast, and it wants to step out, but it seems the grip is now just right.

Out of interest how does the game simulate this car? Is it a permanent % power split? IRL the car is predominant rear drive until the rears spin and it throws a % power to the front wheels.

bmanic
05-08-2015, 17:01
Keep in mind that I had not run any road cars at all after the game was released.. except the BAC Mono. So it is very possible that there was no changes to the tires in the latest update. Anyhow, I'm having a real blast with the road cars now and I know for certain that the Caterham R500 is now a million times better than it was pre-release as it was one of the last cars that I complained about. Now it is "perfect". :)

Same goes for the Huayra or any of the hyper and supercars. Those tires are indeed better now than they were before.

TrevorAustin
05-08-2015, 17:16
Keep in mind that I had not run any road cars at all after the game was released.. except the BAC Mono. So it is very possible that there was no changes to the tires in the latest update. Anyhow, I'm having a real blast with the road cars now and I know for certain that the Caterham R500 is now a million times better than it was pre-release as it was one of the last cars that I complained about. Now it is "perfect". :)

Same goes for the Huayra or any of the hyper and supercars. Those tires are indeed better now than they were before.

There was:) Doug announced a significant change to the 2.5 modern sports cars and the Ford GT.

pigsy
06-08-2015, 05:17
Career mode road car track day race at Brands Hatch in the Ruf. Even with the default setup and low fuel the car is beautifully balanced. Nice front end grip and just drive it on the throttle nice and smooth. Was able to qualify 9th before the rain came. So had some exotic cars behind me including the Mclaren P1 with only some BAC monos in front.
Sensational race keeping the AI behind me by clipping all my apexes and not making any mistakes and coming home 8th. Ruf such a great car to drive now. Can't wait for some other road events to thrown up in career now.

xautos
06-08-2015, 05:40
not sure whats going on with the 12c gt3 recently. had no problems under brakes on certain tracks, now all of a sudden the car just wants to lock up or swap ends on me on those specific tracks. i dont get it, i didnt get this before this change. but now im having to run a little more front bias and less brake pressure to account for it, at least 10% from the norm of 88% i usually run on the 12c. the gt4 version on the other hand was a handful when i last used it, but i managed to get the car settled with a few setup tweaks, it feels like the gt3 version after that, although the brakes are still iffy.

bmanic
06-08-2015, 17:20
not sure whats going on with the 12c gt3 recently. had no problems under brakes on certain tracks, now all of a sudden the car just wants to lock up or swap ends on me on those specific tracks. i dont get it, i didnt get this before this change. but now im having to run a little more front bias and less brake pressure to account for it, at least 10% from the norm of 88% i usually run on the 12c. the gt4 version on the other hand was a handful when i last used it, but i managed to get the car settled with a few setup tweaks, it feels like the gt3 version after that, although the brakes are still iffy.

What on earth are you talking about? First of all, here we discussed the road cars.. not the GT3 nor GT4. Second, there is no GT4 version of the 12c. Do you mean the road car? There is a HUGE difference between the McLaren 12c-mp4 road car versus it's GT3 counterpart. They are basically completely different cars. Only the chassis is similar as far as I know. Suspension is completely different, tires are completely different, aero and engine are completely different and at least here on my Thrustmaster TX 458 FFB wheel they feel and drive completely differently no matter how you set them up.

So yeah.. I have no idea what you are on about. :confused:

xautos
06-08-2015, 21:26
What on earth are you talking about? First of all, here we discussed the road cars.. not the GT3 nor GT4. Second, there is no GT4 version of the 12c. Do you mean the road car? There is a HUGE difference between the McLaren 12c-mp4 road car versus it's GT3 counterpart. They are basically completely different cars. Only the chassis is similar as far as I know. Suspension is completely different, tires are completely different, aero and engine are completely different and at least here on my Thrustmaster TX 458 FFB wheel they feel and drive completely differently no matter how you set them up.

So yeah.. I have no idea what you are on about. :confused:

as you bitten my head off with that reply, i wont be baited into your rather insulting tone of the reply in the quote. i will wait on the next reply.

bmanic
06-08-2015, 22:35
Eh? No.. I just don't understand your post. Was it a question, a remark, a comment? I genuinely do not understand your post.. and I corrected you on the non-existing GT4 mp4-12c as there is no such thing. No insult was meant, sorry if that is how you took it.