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Scud-driver
05-08-2015, 05:55
I bought PCars to train for real track days at Nurburgring and would like to learn the names of all the sections and curves. The names of the sections and curves are widely used during training in real life.
Are the any way to get them displayed in some way?

Scud-driver
05-08-2015, 08:15
Take a look at this video, in the lower left corner you get curve/section name displayed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaX0qtFs1vM&list=FL6gquWBcCyEp1avHxH0uV3g&index=4

Kelderek
05-08-2015, 08:52
There are roadside signs in Pcars identifying the various sections of Nordschleife.
They are however quite small and not easy to read while driving at race speed.

I noticed that the text on the sign at Galgenkopf (Gallow Hill) is missing... is that due to the game's PEGI3 rating? :p

Kelderek
05-08-2015, 09:02
Here is a good run-through of all the official and some not-so-official names of sections and curves, with explanations of the origin of the names:

http://www.nurburgring.org.uk/bendnames/index.php

babyfacedaz
06-08-2015, 12:20
This may also help you

http://www.fastcar.co.uk/2012/01/19/nurburgring-nordschleife-cornering-map-and-guide/

xsomnivmx
06-08-2015, 12:31
I bought PCars to train for real track days at Nurburgring


Just keep in mind, that there is a reason why in driver briefings they ask if people have played videogame versions of the ring and they put them in special groups.


The guys at RSRNurburg, a local training and Ring-rental-car business, ask participants to raise their hands in driver meetings if they've driven the course in a video game. Anyone who responds in the affirmative is pulled aside for an "additional briefing," because people who think they know the track are usually the first to get in trouble.

Source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a6426/the-nurburgring-fact-versus-fiction/


(Do not want to offend you or anyone else, just speaking out of the 2. hand experience of having friends who lost people on the ring. So, no hard feelings, ok? :) )

MrFlibble81
06-08-2015, 12:41
A video game will not prepare you for real life around any race track but I would guess especially the ring.

A video game is going to lull you into a false sense of security since you can't die in the game so you take more risks in cars which are relatively forgiving when compared to a real car.

There's an old Top Gear challenge where Clarkson practiced Laguna Seca on a Gran Turismo game and then tried to beat his time on the real life in an identical car and couldn't because the differences are so great.

Just something to keep in mind.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-08-2015, 13:15
A video game will not prepare you for real life around any race track but I would guess especially the ring.

A video game is going to lull you into a false sense of security since you can't die in the game so you take more risks in cars which are relatively forgiving when compared to a real car.

There's an old Top Gear challenge where Clarkson practiced Laguna Seca on a Gran Turismo game and then tried to beat his time on the real life in an identical car and couldn't because the differences are so great.

Just something to keep in mind.That also partly depends on how realistic the simulation is. With GT from back when Clarkson did his bit (and on a gamepad no less) it's no surprise, but sims can be really helpful for being actually quick on the track (Greger Huttu did quite well when they put him in a real racing car, despite not even having a driver's license). Ben Collins (who used to hate sims with a passion) also said this during the development:


Sim racers are better at racing than they realise. At Le Mans this year a guy from the Playstation academy, after one year of real racing, drove faster throughout the race than Michael Krumm. That has changed my view of how much can be learned on a sim.Of course it's not ALL you need, actual seat time in a real car is necessary, but it can be very helpful.

EDIT: And particularly on a track like the Ring, sims are more or less good for helping you remember the track in a sense of "you know where you are and you know what's coming", but other than that you need to learn how to drive it by driving it.

xsomnivmx
06-08-2015, 13:29
sims can be really helpful for being actually quick on the track

many racecar drivers use sims to help them to remember the layout, sure. I would put it this way. If you can race, a sim can teach you the basic layout of the track - but a sim can't teach you how to race real cars.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-08-2015, 14:15
many racecar drivers use sims to help them to remember the layout, sure. I would put it this way. If you can race, a sim can teach you the basic layout of the track - but a sim can't teach you how to race real cars.See, that's where Ben and some of the other RL racers who helped with pCARS, as well as the GulfSport people, plus the guys who worked with Greger Huttu when iRacing put him in an actual race car, would disagree with you. Of course just simming isn't enough, but they seemed pretty adamant that it can teach you a helluva lot about how to race real cars.

xsomnivmx
06-08-2015, 14:29
See, that's where Ben and some of the other RL racers who helped with pCARS, as well as the GulfSport people, plus the guys who worked with Greger Huttu when iRacing put him in an actual race car, would disagree with you. Of course just simming isn't enough, but they seemed pretty adamant that it can teach you a helluva lot about how to race real cars.

Well i guess it depends on many things. I would agree that a good sim (not only the software part, but also the hardware! ) can teach you basic things like "whats the fastest way around a corner" or "how do i learn to find break points" etc., racing 101 if you want to call it that. And i think GT Academy and co. show that sims can help to find talented people and help them get better in those aspects.
But - and i have to admit, besides some local kart racing i have never raced a car and maybe i'm totally wrong about it - i honestly think, that if you would fill a starting grid with 20 good sim racers which have no training or experience on real racetracks it would end rather bad for all. But hey, who am i to disagree with the stig. :)

Plage
06-08-2015, 17:14
I'm from an online racing community that holds a yearly meeting at the Ring and as things come there are also some real life race drivers around. At the first meeting in 2007 we had a driver that was piloting the Land Motorsport Porsche 911 GT3 in this season and we attended one of his long track races while we were there. We later had a BBQ and asked him how far sim racing can be used for training and he basically said that it's only good to familarize with the general track layout and not more. I'd second this as you simply can't compare the handling of a real car to what you'll get even with the best racing wheel no matter how realistic the track is represented or how amazing the feedback is. I'm not sure if it was Röhrl or Stuck that said it's best to walk around the track on foot to get a feeling for it.
I drove the Nordschleife in games before I ever came close to it in real life and it really is something different. We had the opportunity to get driven around by the mentioned race driver in an M3 E30 Gr.A/N mix and what I experienced during this one lap was far away from everything related to driving I knew so far. After that I took my own Peugeot 306 for a spin and nearly threw it away in one corner (end of the Wippermann) because I wasn't ready for the compression with the following change of load. It's simply things like that you normally don't experience when driving a car on a normal road or even most other tracks that you've to learn and approach very carefully. An other member of said community managed to total his Clio in the fifth lap because he thought he knew the track by then. Big and expensive mistake!

What I don't get is why said tourist racing organisers have problems with drivers who play racing games or drove this track in a game. I'd say that people playing racing sims normally know more about how cars handle and what to do in certain (extrem) situtations and maybe the track in question than your normal driver with x years of on the road experience.
A German TV station once did a small test to actually see if somebody that never drove a car in real life but only racing games can drive against or even beat a real race driver. How it comes this involved said race driver from above and a young gun of our community that was 13 or maybe 16 years old at that time. He was really, really good in sim racing but had never driven a car or kart in real life before. Both met on an indoor kart track and after some laps of familarization they had a race which the real life race driver just won by inches. So much about that but then a kart track is not the Nordschleife and a kart not a real car.

Schnizz58
06-08-2015, 18:34
What I don't get is why said tourist racing organisers have problems with drivers who play racing games or drove this track in a game. I'd say that people playing racing sims normally know more about how cars handle and what to do in certain (extrem) situtations and maybe the track in question than your normal driver with x years of on the road experience.
I don't think they have a problem with them. They just want to make sure that the sim racers are not overconfident because they've run hundreds of sim laps on the Nordschleife. Certainly familiarity with the track is a good thing but if those drivers come in with an "I got this" attitude, they might be in for a big surprise. A new driver knows that he knows nothing and will pay attention to the briefing. But the sim racers might think they know something that they really don't. And not knowing what you don't know can be dangerous, fatal or at least expensive.

xautos
06-08-2015, 21:33
i make it a rule not to race around long lap circuits on pcars, with the track limits being what they are, its easy to make a mistake somewhere and waste whole minutes. besides that i never really liked nord anyway.
with a new track it usually takes me between 3 to 5 laps to get the circuit corners all memorized and after that, its memorizing the speed and commitment through the corners. one should never make any illusions when dealing with an unknown track, they should take their time learning the track and finding car grip limits.

xsomnivmx
07-08-2015, 08:25
What I don't get is why said tourist racing organisers have problems with drivers who play racing games or drove this track in a game. I'd say that people playing racing sims normally know more about how cars handle and what to do in certain (extrem) situtations and maybe the track in question than your normal driver with x years of on the road experience.

In germany, we call it "Gefährliches Halbwissen" - it translates roughly to "dangerous superficial knowledge" and is used, when people know enough to think that they are experts, but basically will fail horribly.
And if you watch Ring Videos you see soooo many people that fall in this category. So, yeah. It's not so much having a problem with them, but knowing the potential "troublemakers" up front. :)

Plage
07-08-2015, 09:32
I'm from Germany and therefore know what it means. The thing is I'd trust the normal sim racer much more with handling a car on track than I'd do with your standard driver that never had any race experience at all and maybe never brought a car to its limits no matter if in sim or real life. Fact is the real sim racers should normally be much more "into" what's going and I'd actually trust them with not overestimating their skills exactly because of that. An other thing may be the guys from the NFS and TDU faction or pad-consoleros as they could really become a problem in the direction of being overconfident in their skills and knowledge but of course you can't expect said organizers to know the difference between a sim racing game and the more arcadish ones.

xsomnivmx
07-08-2015, 11:15
I'm from Germany and therefore know what it means.

Well.... Berlin... ;) Nah, you are right, i missed this completely. ;)



The thing is I'd trust the normal sim racer much more with handling a car on track than I'd do with your standard driver that never had any race experience at all and maybe never brought a car to its limits no matter if in sim or real life. Fact is the real sim racers should normally be much more "into" what's going and I'd actually trust them with not overestimating their skills exactly because of that. An other thing may be the guys from the NFS and TDU faction or pad-consoleros as they could really become a problem in the direction of being overconfident in their skills and knowledge but of course you can't expect said organizers to know the difference between a sim racing game and the more arcadish ones.

Yeah, i think that's the main point. Not so much guys with four digit $ rigs and iracing account.. at least regarding the "overconfident" and "nothing bad can happen to me" attitude.

Scud-driver
24-11-2015, 13:38
I have been to Nordschleife may times and taken part in the Scuderia Hanseat training as well, so I do know the track. But winter is long and to be able to "drive" the track and memorize it, really adds to the learning...

venquessa
24-11-2015, 14:01
Small factoid.

The first time an airline pilot flies a real 737, Airbus A319 etc. is on a scheduled line flight with real passengers. The only other time he has flown that plane was in a sim.

Did decades of flight sim help me with my first flying lesson. Quite a bit, but I still stand by the fact that flight sims can teach you almost everything about flying, except how to actually physically fly!

Did driving sims for decades help me with my first track day... maybe a little bit of the basics of lines, braking early, be patient on the power, but it was minimal help and as I knew that I approached it accordingly, creeping up the speed towards the limit then playing with it cautiously and smoothly.

I think they can teach you an awful lot of stuff, but I don't think they can teach you very much about how to actually drive a car, track or road or otherwise. Too much of that is grounded in 'feel', seat of the pants stuff, G-Force, etc. etc.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
24-11-2015, 18:36
I agree in part and disagree in other. I kinda give credit to my experience with sims for saving my life (first driving lesson ever I had to quickly avoid two on-coming cars coming over a blind crest in a no-passing zone, I quickly steered towards the ditch, held my right side tyres there and managed to avoid them, then came back to the track. Just acted, didn't think.) and just a load of money from being able to catch slides without prior practice (was surprised a couple of times by loose gravel acting like ball bearings in a corner, and melting spring snow as well). Literally no real life experience in going sideways in a controlled manner beforehand, but I caught and held the slides like nothing, doing the same thing I'd done for years in sims.

However obviously for track driving you need to do a helluva lot to actually get to grips with the physical side of things, so it won't automatically make you fast. Though when iRacing brought Greger Huttu over to drive real racing cars due to his achievements in sims (he had never driven a real car and didn't have a license at the time) he was very quick for a beginner. =)

DJBLITZKRIEG
27-11-2015, 14:27
you need to warn the pre teens over at gtplanet who seem to think the opposite.

barcode
28-11-2015, 13:11
This is a great discussion, and one that has very many facets to it - even if it's gone OT a bit...

I think the main aspect is that anyone with enough track time in a sim can go out there and do some laps on that track without a problem. As long as you don't try to go to the limit right away. And the more complicated the track (-->Nordschleife), the longer the actual real driving must be before even trying to set any kind of quick lap. Track knowledge is extremely important, but having been on the Nordschleife in particular (coming from GT5 at the time), nothing prepares you for this track.

My trusted mechanic, a former racecar driver who has raced many cars and tracks, told me once that the Golden Rule to the Nordschleife is to approach it with as much respect as humanly possible. He said he always does 3 laps around the track at around 50%, just to understand the current state of the track. It can get really tricky fast, wet corners on an otherwise dry track, shaded areas with no sunlight and cold or wet asphalt on this track have the potential to ruin much more than just your day. After 3 laps, you know where the danger lies (and that can change by the hour up there in that region), and you can start to push to 75%. And never, ever do 100% if you don't have the track to yourself (non-amateurs, real pros).

What sims really do is make you understand the topology of the track. Blind corners, esses, chicanes and even roughly braking points are all very essential knowledge that will take you a long way in real life.

But other things no racing sim will prepare you for.

Going into the Fuchsröhre at 250+kph, setting up the car as it bottoms out and seems to hit a wall of asphalt which is the track in front of you (the change of angle is brutal at that speed!), going uphill towards the following blind left turn, feeling the forces and what they do to you and the car and the slightest steering input is something you will not be able to replicate in any racing sim any time soon. Taking that blind left turn at around 190kph (I didn't actually have the time to look) is relatively easy if you haven't screwed up until then, because you know precisely where the racetrack is behind that blind spot. That's where anyone who hasn't done the sim racing before will come to a screeching halt and change his undies.

But don't ever think, even with the same or a similar car, that you can be as quick as you are in game. Don't even try. A car on the limit over a bump you haven't noticed before is different to a car on the limit on a smooth surface.

From my personal experience, something others have posted as well, doing racing sims improves your daily driving quite a bit. Without trying to get cocky or using it for justification to go extra fast (there is no room for that with as many idiots around on the streets), if you end up in a situation that demands quick hands and asks for quick decisions (swerve left or right?), sim racing gives you a bit of an edge in my opinion.

As long as you don't overestimate yourself....

Danny Wilde
28-11-2015, 13:34
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