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danowat
13-08-2015, 10:27
It's probably a bit late, because most of the pitchforks have been laid down (on this forum at least, other places, not so much), but even so, the information in these posts is quite eye opening, especially if you haven't been involved in development.

I know it's not strictly on topic, but a lot has been posted about the way the development on PCars has gone, and these posts do bring a whole other side of the story into play.

Give these a read with an open mind, both posts are worth your time (IMO), you might learn something.

The second one is more pertaintent to the development process, and why things happen the way they do, the first one is more personal, and reinforces that developers are real people too.

http://woolfegame.com/blog/

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/3cg2hc/repost_as_a_former_developer_theres_a_lot_of/

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
13-08-2015, 11:53
Aye. Being able to see close up every update, every build, most everything that happened during the development of pCARS, I can't even really express how much more I appreciate all the game developers of the world, for theirs is truly a hard job, which goes massively under appreciated by the people they work for (the gamers) since in most cases they simply do not understand the realities involved. pCARS taught me so much that it really would have been worth twice what I paid for the experience (a senior and a team member pack in my case), yet what I actually got is my money back (and then some), a game that I love, friends that I cherish, and experiences that will shape the rest of my life.

ElectricBlues85
13-08-2015, 12:19
It should be compulsory to read the links in the OP.

I'm not one to rage about bugs or feature requests. I work in a technical field and I like to develop in my free time. Not game development but web apps (Ruby on Rails, etc). The complexity and the amount of testing involved to get even something basic working is astonishing. Changing functionality you've already written is even harder (in most cases) than writing it all from scratch. Game dev is no doubt much harder than what I do.

Big props to the guys at SMS (and their peers across the industry). You've got one hell of a job on your hands!

BigFred
13-08-2015, 12:58
There are two sides. I develop hardware and software myself, so I know how hard it is.

On the other hand, when a customer buys a product they don't buy into your lifestyle. You have to respect the fact that when they buy something, your problems making/developing it aren't something that they have to be concerned about (although they may choose to do so). Some people when they buy a product they want to hear about the development and details and they want to hear the blood sweat and tears. Others just want to buy something that works. They don't care whether the developers cat died halfway through, or a lightening strike took out all the servers so the product had to be started from scratch. Imagine if you went into a restaurant and got a crappy meal and you got the whole story of why it was like that. Most people wouldn't give a damn, they are just annoyed that the meal is crap and want better.

So no, IMO it should not be compulsary for a consumer to know about the development process and how difficult it was. It should be up to the customer as to whether they want such details. And if they do, fine, and if they don't fine as well.

BCFCBristolRed
13-08-2015, 14:10
Two very good reads there. Two sides? Absolutely.

I agree with BigFred in some respects, yes as a consumer you should expect a "finished product". You'd be steaming if you bought a TV and they said, oh yeah, it has the capability of running at 1080p but we will need to patch that in at some point etc etc etc. On the other hand, game development is an incredibly difficult subject. I've read many articles in recent times which say, ps1 games had to be finished as they couldn't be patched etc but, games and game machines nowadays are so complex. Being a member of this forum and many other "next gen" game forums has taught me just how difficult it is to code a multi platform game and how much actual work goes into it.

Thanks for these links!! :)

KK78
13-08-2015, 14:17
I agree and appreciate the threads Danowat posted but also agree with Big Fred. It's a balance and more information like this would be great to help educate both sides on the situation. It feels often that game development is a closed book to consumers, probably due to publishers preferences to market the living poo out of a game rather than give a perspective on the effort, energy and challenges that occurs during development. Consumers too should lend some level of understanding though, too many are self entitled idiots who mistake a highly complex video game as been the same as a fridge/freezer.

Umer Ahmad
13-08-2015, 14:18
Also, this is not just games. This is pretty much par-for-course for ALL software I've written/produced/bought/supported in the past 15 years.

Same story at work (Financial Trading & Risk systems). None of our customers will typically take version 1.0 except the guys that are desperate for the new features and can tolerate bugs. Most customers respond, "call me back when you have released the 2nd patch then I'll think about upgrading."

Same for internally written software, 1.0 is usually small and something to "get used to" and we quickly (monthly) follow-up with patches. Especially when I'm working with new internal clients, I coach the developers to KISS because the risk is high the customer will not even fully understand what the software can do for them and how it affects (improves) their operations. I work at a pretty ancient bank in Chicago where there are some "dinosaurs" still employed.

In general I think computing and software is new to humanity, we've been doing it less than 100 years. If you compare to medicine, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, textiles etc. then software is still in it's infancy. How many "frameworks", patterns and SDLCs have we seen come-and-go just in the past 20 years? Waterfall, Iterative, Agile...Fragile :) we're getting better at it though.

KK78
13-08-2015, 14:23
That's the thing, I see software as a living thing and like other living things it is prone to mistakes, outbursts and weeing itself on occassions.

Umer Ahmad
13-08-2015, 14:26
That's the thing, I see software as a living thing and like other living things it is prone to mistakes, outbursts and weeing itself on occassions.

Yeah, it's quite different from a "durable good" that does not really change after the purchase. Software can be improved over time. So the on-going support of the team is more of a factor than say if you buy a car and plan to change your own oil, brakes etc. (I do my car maintenance myself so I don't care about the "support" the dealer does or does not offer).

You buy a clothes washer and thats it. Done. It's not going to "improve" later (you'll get some warranty however). So the product at purchase time has to pass more rigorous testing. I think software is different, the relationship between software producer/consumer is a bit tighter than say my relationship with Honda/Subaru (the two cars I own).

danowat
13-08-2015, 14:27
Just offering an opposing viewpoint, and hopefully a discussion point, I have been vocal about the parts of PCars I don't like, I am not excusing bad service.

A one of things touched on I thought was important, was the point about developers "stealing our money", I see this a lot, not only on this forum, but elsewhere, do people really believe that a development team spend years creating a product to hoodwink us and steal our money?.

KK78
13-08-2015, 14:36
Just offering an opposing viewpoint, and hopefully a discussion point, I have been vocal about the parts of PCars I don't like, I am not excusing bad service.

A one of things touched on I thought was important, firstly the point about developers "stealing our money", I see this a lot, not only on this forum, but elsewhere, do people really believe that a development team spend years creating a product to hoodwink us and steal our money?.

And I think it is a very worthwhile debate to have. Many perceptions of a video games quality are heavily skewed by throwaway, basic comments from gamers. We've all heard the 'oh COD is on the same engine so it will be rubbish' which is passed off as if the commentator has a clue what they are talking about or the 'all Assassins Creed games are copy and paste' or how Driveclub still doesn't work (has worked for 9 months+) how all DICE games will now be broken upon release (Battlefield Hardline says hi) Now such games may not be great for other reasons but I hear a lot of the same misinformed, childish tripe now about Project Cars from people who have often not even played the game, sure it has issues but throwaway comments of sweeping conjecture just work to misinform and paint a false picture.

If more of the information you posted was more widely known the more knee-jerk, 'it's cool to lambast x, y or z' gamers wouldn't look quite so stupid sometimes.

Raven403
13-08-2015, 14:48
Great thread by the OP and a good discussion to have.

My feelings on it lie mostly in line with what BigFred said, while I appreciate that coding/programing/testing modern complex multiplatform games is hard, very hard infact, that isn't MY job to know what went into it before it got to me. Also, as I said elsewhere in the forum, I don't have ANY experience in coding or programming or testing games for that matter, and it's only until the past few years games have been releasing on console in a state of disrepair. My expectations have been built over years of gaming, mostly in a time when there was no patching available so what you got HAD to work. So when this trend of broken launches continues, my benchmark is still set with games that didn't have these problems, and as I said with no programming backround or insider information how would I know WHY those things are happening?

Developers aren't posting in their games advertising that "Day 1 game may not work" so why would I expect anything less?

Now, through trial and error and enduring horrible launches, (BF4 Springs to mind) I've learned my lesson and learned more about the reasons why and gleaned some info about modern game coding etc. But that's because I wanted too, a Gamer is a Consumer plain and simple, and as Big Fred pointed out, consumers of Anything expect a certain standard, and without saying "The Game may not work as advertised" on the box, I'm not sure your providing that.

KK78
13-08-2015, 14:56
Consumers certainly have a right to 'expect' certain things but I guess it is at what point the consumer is enacting Einstein's theory of insanity by buying a new game as soon as possible and expecting it to buck the trend of modern games releasing with issues.

My main issue is that many publishers are particularly proficient at acting as if issues, bad launches don't happen and merrily continue to market the hell out of new games- more measured marketing and a more open dialogue with consumers would perhaps not make the fall from high expectation to reality so painful.

danowat
13-08-2015, 15:01
Many games are victims of their own marketing (hype), without said marketing (hype) games don't sell.

I certainly don't think it's a field I'd particularly like to work in.

Sankyo
13-08-2015, 15:08
Everything is getting more complex. My TV that I bought years ago got at least 5 firmware patches in the first year after purchase. How many car brands have to call back cars because some subsystem isn't working properly? Complexity comes with errors and undetected faults, that's just something we have to accept.

What's most important, though, is how the manufacturer and seller deal with this towards their customers.

Umer Ahmad
13-08-2015, 15:09
Movie/film industry also relies heavily on hype. See the new Fantastic Four as a recent example.

edit: can't get refund for a crappy movie!

MrFlibble81
13-08-2015, 15:13
I think a lot of problems in modern gaming comes from the big wigs at the publishing companies who invest millions of dollars into an IP and want to make a profit. They give a deadline for a games release and it better be out by then so developers are forced into releasing a game that might not be finished or at least maybe not up to their standard. I'm pretty sure that's why there's so many sequels to games these days like Assassins Creed for example. It's a popular game and they know it's going to be an instant profit. I'm not saying that all the AC games are the same but they also haven't gone out of their way to create anything new and exciting with them; I guess the old mantra of "if it aint broke, don't fix it" runs true here. Because like it or not, the gameplay hasn't changed in those games. And that's true for a lot of games, they know what sells and a lot of the time they don't need to change things to shift millions of copies; and when they do change things it all starts going wrong. *Cough cough Resident Evil Cough cough*

Many games now are released with the devs knowing full well it's not up to their standards (Arkham Knight is a prime example) because they're forced to stop working on the game and get it released by whatever date is set for them. The very fact they can now patch the games on day 1 and in theory forever after the game is released only exacerbates that problem.

The publishers and the people that invest money into gaming really don't care about anything else other than profit. They don't care if you don't like it they already got their money when you bought the game.

Just my 2 cents.

MrFlibble81
13-08-2015, 15:14
Movie/film industry also relies heavily on hype. See the new Fantastic Four as a recent example.

edit: can't get refund for a crappy movie!

Is it that bad? I heard it wasn't very good but I didn't really know how bad.

I liked the older ones with the lovely Jessica Alba. :D

danowat
13-08-2015, 15:17
Movie/film industry also relies heavily on hype. See the new Fantastic Four as a recent example.

edit: can't get refund for a crappy movie!

Is anything really as bad as people say it is?, has the global mouthpiece that is the internet just made everyone a cynic?

I don't know, maybe I am having a blue day, but people and the world they live in isn't a particularly nice place at times!

You only just have to look on YouTube, the amount of bile and vitriol outweighs the positive stuff by a big margin, but then I guess it's only human nature to be vocal when you want to be negative........

Umer Ahmad
13-08-2015, 15:18
Is it that bad? I heard it wasn't very good but I didn't really know how bad.

I liked the older ones with the lovely Jessica Alba. :D

Don't take my word for it! http://twitter.com/realandytudor/status/631554124643987456

also: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/fantastic_four_2015/

MrFlibble81
13-08-2015, 15:21
Ok I think I'll give that one a miss then!

Raven403
13-08-2015, 16:02
Movie/film industry also relies heavily on hype. See the new Fantastic Four as a recent example.

edit: can't get refund for a crappy movie!

Very true, which is why I don't go to the movies anymore. Why pay 12-20 bucks to see a movie in theatres when I can wait 2 months and rent it at home for 4?

So I'm speaking with my wallet, much the same way I'm doing that with games too, Pcars was my one exception to that rule, and that's probably why things wrong with it upset me even more unfortunately, it's more disappointment in myself for thinking it would be different.

But the post launch support has been fantastic, there's no regrets.

Umer Ahmad
13-08-2015, 16:13
Very true, which is why I don't go to the movies anymore. Why pay 12-20 bucks to see a movie in theatres when I can wait 2 months and rent it at home for 4?

So I'm speaking with my wallet, much the same way I'm doing that with games too, Pcars was my one exception to that rule, and that's probably why things wrong with it upset me even more unfortunately, it's more disappointment in myself for thinking it would be different.

But the post launch support has been fantastic, there's no regrets.

True, I don't go to movies anymore. Except for VERY well reviewed movies that actually are worth seeing on a very large screen with loud speaker systems (I can recommend the new Mission Impossible, good stuff). Even then I typically get the $6 afternoon ticket. I'm cheap that way (and I also have a loud 5.1 system and large TV in my basement now)

Raven403
13-08-2015, 16:21
True, I don't go to movies anymore. Except for VERY well reviewed movies that actually are worth seeing on a very large screen with loud speaker systems (I can recommend the new Mission Impossible, good stuff). Even then I typically get the $6 afternoon ticket. I'm cheap that way (and I also have a loud 5.1 system and large TV in my basement now)

Exactly, when I was younger there was no way to even come close to matching the Theatre experience, but NOW? I'd much rather be home in my bed, watching a movie on my 60" tv with 5.1 surround sound then in a movie theatre.

But I'm with you, if I DO go I shoot for matinee's

BCFCBristolRed
13-08-2015, 16:46
.......how all DICE games will now be broken upon release (Battlefield Hardline says hi)…

I have just finished Hardline and apart from it being a little repetitive, thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, it's the first FPS I've actually enjoyed since the first Black Ops! :)

EDIT: Sorry for being a little off topic! Haha

KK78
13-08-2015, 18:07
I have just finished Hardline and apart from it being a little repetitive, thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, it's the first FPS I've actually enjoyed since the first Black Ops! :)

EDIT: Sorry for being a little off topic! Haha

And that's my point mate, many assumed Hardline would be in the mess BF4 was on launch but turned out ok.

Raven403
13-08-2015, 18:09
And that's my point mate, many assumed Hardline would be in the mess BF4 was on launch but turned out ok.

I know I assumed that, why wouldn't I?
Still haven't gotten F1 yet, probably won't either, will probably wait for 16'

Won't get FM6 day one, won't get battlefront day one even tho its the game I'm most excited for. It's a lesson I learned and that's it. Might as well wait a few weeks to months for either a sale or pre-owned. Give the Devs time to inevitably patch it. Just kinda sucks it is how it is

BCFCBristolRed
13-08-2015, 18:14
I know I assumed that, why wouldn't I?
Still haven't gotten F1 yet, probably won't either, will probably wait for 16'

Won't get FM6 day one, won't get battlefront day one even tho its the game I'm most excited for. It's a lesson I learned and that's it. Might as well wait a few weeks to months for either a sale or pre-owned. Give the Devs time to inevitably patch it. Just kinda sucks it is how it is

I play F1 here and there. There are plenty of bugs. Car sticking in 2nd gear when exiting the pits, thus destroying the engine..... A lot of black blocky messes at some tracks (most notable at Monteal).... fuel mixes are all messed up. Quite a few. The forums at Codemasters are not a nice place to be lol.

Raven403
13-08-2015, 18:15
I play F1 here and there. There are plenty of bugs. Car sticking in 2nd gear when exiting the pits, thus destroying the engine..... A lot of black blocky messes at some tracks (most notable at Monteal).... fuel mixes are all messed up. Quite a few. The forums at Codemasters are not a nice place to be lol.

Weren't all or most of those things fixed in the patch they released on the 4th? I know the 2nd gear issue was

BCFCBristolRed
13-08-2015, 18:24
Weren't all or most of those things fixed in the patch they released on the 4th? I know the 2nd gear issue was

The gear issue was yes but the others still exist for me. There are plenty more bugs to list. It's a shame as the actual driving is really good, a genuinely nice handling model.

legendm0de
13-08-2015, 21:36
This is why I support the calculated and solitary approach this Studio has made, and this is how we got a combination of grace (beauty) and simulation. The entire industry needs to shift this way, not by dropping off from major publishers completely but, by accepting the new normal. I mean you don't seen Windows releasing new OS's every 9 months or even upgraded cell phones every single year per-say. No one should be expecting games that release in under 10 months at a time being worth the purchase these days. GTA is the most successful franchise in gaming, and notice how much time they put into their releases?

Gravit8
13-08-2015, 21:46
Waaaaaaaaa

My job is hard.
Put on a hard hat and try lifting something heavy. Not just your mouse.
Nobody died developing a game ever. You take yourselves way too seriously. Unless your an artist. Your not talented. You crunch code. Probably in the exact manner your lead tells/taught you too.


I work in dangerous conditions with electricity.
No sympathy for wangers who sit at desks and complain people don't like their garbage. My job is hard. Waaaaaaaa
Develop better then. Your job is not dangerous, not even hard.
Developers have a cool job, a great one for lazy gamers.

I remember the days before the internet patch when every game was finished.

It was and is still possible. If not for excuses.
Excuses excuses excuses excuses
Yet today's developer has so much more at there fingertips. I'll never sympathize with an industry this big making these kinds of profits.
No matter how much they ask me too. Feel sorry for them. I don't.
You pick what you do, but don't tell me how to judge your product or the final result.

Whoooaaaahhhh whoooooaaahhh
Ya I can't stop

Required reading? sMH
More like required whining.
I shudder to think how these people would handle a construction site. They wouldn't. There's no crying allowed.

MrFlibble81
13-08-2015, 21:56
Waaaaaaaaa

My job is hard.
Put on a hard hat and try lifting something heavy. Not just your mouse.
Nobody died developing a game ever. You take yourselves way too seriously. Unless your an artist. Your not talented. You crunch code. Probably in the exact manner your lead tells/taught you too.


I work in dangerous conditions with electricity.
No sympathy for wangers who sit at desks and complain people don't like their garbage. My job is hard. Waaaaaaaa
Develop better then. Your job is not dangerous, not even hard.
Developers have a cool job, a great one for lazy gamers.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold your horses there buddy.

Just because you wear a hard hat for a living does not mean you have the hardest job in the world and it doesn't mean you work harder than anybody else in the world.

And just because you THINK that coding a game etc is easy doesn't mean it is. You're no better than anybody else who works hard for a living.

legendm0de
13-08-2015, 21:59
Waaaaaaaaa

My job is hard.
Put on a hard hat and try lifting something heavy. Not just your mouse.
Nobody died developing a game ever. You take yourselves way too seriously. Unless your an artist. Your not talented. You crunch code. Probably in the exact manner your lead tells/taught you too.


I work in dangerous conditions with electricity.
No sympathy for wangers who sit at desks and complain people don't like their garbage. My job is hard. Waaaaaaaa
Develop better then. Your job is not dangerous, not even hard.
Developers have a cool job, a great one for lazy gamers.

The problem is without a successful project, they will have no job anymore. Sure they can get another but this is obviously what they are passionate about doing. So this is less of a job and more often it's a passion and when that is failing. You would go Waaaaaa as well, if you're passion was failing.

More than that, it's the gamer that suffers the most by having crap games and nothing good to play year after year. And that's the biggest shame of it all.

AdM1
13-08-2015, 22:00
It'll never change though, the devs will always get stick, that's just how it is.

Same way the police get stick when really its the people above them calling the shots.

If they don't like it then I'm sure there's other jobs etc.

Gravit8
13-08-2015, 22:17
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold your horses there buddy.

Just because you wear a hard hat for a living does not mean you have the hardest job in the world and it doesn't mean you work harder than anybody else in the world.

Yup^^^^^ that's true. It does mean danger though. That's just one element missing from the Computer based job you are trying to act like is tough? It's not a tough or hard job. Might have called it thankless, but it isn't that either.
It's a cushy job compared to lots of real world dangerous jobs.

And just because you THINK that coding a game etc is easy doesn't mean it is. You're no better than anybody else who works hard for a living.


My response is within your quote

Gravit8
13-08-2015, 22:47
This is why I support the calculated and solitary approach this Studio has made, and this is how we got a combination of grace (beauty) and simulation. The entire industry needs to shift this way, not by dropping off from major publishers completely but, by accepting the new normal. I mean you don't seen Windows releasing new OS's every 9 months or even upgraded cell phones every single year per-say. No one should be expecting games that release in under 10 months at a time being worth the purchase these days. GTA is the most successful franchise in gaming, and notice how much time they put into their releases?

There projects are insanely ambitious too. Rockstar are the only true innovators in gaming. Maybe it's their budget? Maybe they have all the good talent? Probably both.
I often wonder if it will eventually be one game we play. That does all things.
Rockstar have this vision I think and could pull it off.
Imagine living in Los Santos and driving to the track to race.
I think that's the future. One big game with lots of different things to do within it.
GTA is already a racing, fighting, plane flying, skydiving, boat racing, helicopter riding all encompassing game.
There gonna keep growing til you can do almost anything you could in real life within one game.
Oh yeah. Freestyle BMX too, cycling
Now where's my skateboard rockstar?

one1two
14-08-2015, 00:44
There projects are insanely ambitious too. Rockstar are the only true innovators in gaming. Maybe it's their budget? Maybe they have all the good talent? Probably both.
I often wonder if it will eventually be one game we play. That does all things.
Rockstar have this vision I think and could pull it off.
Imagine living in Los Santos and driving to the track to race.
I think that's the future. One big game with lots of different things to do within it.
GTA is already a racing, fighting, plane flying, skydiving, boat racing, helicopter riding all encompassing game.
There gonna keep growing til you can do almost anything you could in real life within one game.
Oh yeah. Freestyle BMX too, cycling
Now where's my skateboard rockstar?

GTA has all that but to be fair it's all pretty bland though. The only excitement really comes from the free roaming aspect and being able to get away with all the crazy crap.

Edit: how long did it take them to get the heist feature added? Also what use to be one of the big draws for GTA was the cheats you could do now they don't want that going on because they can't rip people off by selling in game currency, at least PC dlc is good value.

LogRoad
14-08-2015, 01:27
Movie/film industry also relies heavily on hype. See the new Fantastic Four as a recent example.

edit: can't get refund for a crappy movie!

Truly? I haven't been to a movie theater in years, but it used to be you could walk out of a bad movie and collect your refund on the way. Don't recall ever doing that myself though.

Gravit8
14-08-2015, 04:51
Truly? I haven't been to a movie theater in years, but it used to be you could walk out of a bad movie and collect your refund on the way. Don't recall ever doing that myself though.

This is true. Can walk out at any point in a movie and ask for a refund. Just can't finish it. Or abuse the policy.

Umer Ahmad
14-08-2015, 04:56
Yean i meant once the ending credits are rolling and the lights turn on.

Gravit8
14-08-2015, 04:57
GTA has all that but to be fair it's all pretty bland though. The only excitement really comes from the free roaming aspect and being able to get away with all the crazy crap.

Edit: how long did it take them to get the heist feature added? Also what use to be one of the big draws for GTA was the cheats you could do now they don't want that going on because they can't rip people off by selling in game currency, at least PC dlc is good value.

Let me guess. You didn't finish story. And You really don't parachute or fly very often right? Never race planes?
Don't play online for fear of getting wasted?
Not deep?
Guessing this game is just a little too difficult.

Gravit8
14-08-2015, 05:01
GTA has all that but to be fair it's all pretty bland though. The only excitement really comes from the free roaming aspect and being able to get away with all the crazy crap.

Edit: how long did it take them to get the heist feature added? Also what use to be one of the big draws for GTA was the cheats you could do now they don't want that going on because they can't rip people off by selling in game currency, at least PC dlc is good value.

Let me guess. You didn't finish story. And You really don't parachute or fly very often right? Never race planes?
Don't play online for fear of getting wasted?

Guessing this game is just a little too difficult.

Edit
Yes it is if your bitching about the price of shark cards, instead of applauding "free" DLC because you can't earn the cash to buy what you want.
Unbelievable dude

It's free dlc. All yo gotta do is earn the cash in game to buy it.
Are you saying a game that's not that deep or complex is causing you to hate shark cards.
How can you say it's bland if you have not solved it yet?

This is by far the most difficult game and deepest I have ever played. Requires mastery of so many different skills.
I realize it doesn't compare to mega man or a strategy or puzzle game.
But as a puzzle to be solved or conquered. Games don't get any harder or much more complex than GTA
It's ironic they call them shark cards.
All the real sharks already have 10 million in the bank

Btw. Sorry mods. Not sure how I double posted, but it was an accident.

Megalomanic87
14-08-2015, 05:05
From what i can tell from the article, the studio tried releasing a game and it was pants, so they went bankrupt.

Shame.

KK78
14-08-2015, 10:26
Uh oh someone mentioned Innovation as been the rockbed of good games...

FAIL.