PDA

View Full Version : Traction control too powerful?



fa-racing
15-08-2015, 02:54
I've noticed since 3.0 that the traction control is a little too powerful. As you can no longer do burnouts and shit. Whilst on the topic of burnouts, thanks for bringing back tire smoke in the mirrors :D

hkraft300
15-08-2015, 03:48
Turn off TC.
Burn outs FTW ;)

Gravit8
15-08-2015, 03:57
I've noticed since 3.0 that the traction control is a little too powerful. As you can no longer do burnouts and shit. Whilst on the topic of burnouts, thanks for bringing back tire smoke in the mirrors :D

Haha. Ya. Don't use it.

Earn that victory slide. Might be appropriate for the SLS or something?
Is it all cars behaving same?

madmax2069
15-08-2015, 04:00
I've noticed since 3.0 that the traction control is a little too powerful. As you can no longer do burnouts and shit. Whilst on the topic of burnouts, thanks for bringing back tire smoke in the mirrors :D

Thats the whole point in traction control.

wyldanimal
15-08-2015, 04:29
I've noticed since 3.0 that the traction control is a little too powerful. As you can no longer do burnouts and shit. Whilst on the topic of burnouts, thanks for bringing back tire smoke in the mirrors :D

in the car settings, when you have traction controlled turned on, there is a percentage adjustment for when it kicks in.
This allows for a little bit of tire spin, before traction control takes over.

But the real point of traction control it To Stop the Tires from Spinning.. So - no Burnouts when using traction control.

miagi
15-08-2015, 09:34
To say it in simple words, tires produce the maximum "acceleration force" at a tire slip ratio of between 8 and 15% depending on the specific tire. So for example if you set a value lower than 12%, you are not using the full longitudinal potential of it. However, while cornering, slip reduces the cornering stiffness on the rear axis for RWD. Tire slip on the rear axis leads to oversteer :O. So setting a lower TC value than the optimum for the tire cold make sense for some drivers in some situations. TC can be a very powerful tool when it comes to tire wear and tire temps. For example, setting 12-14% on a LMP1 cars makes it saver to drive but also reduces the tire slip to a sensible degree. You probably will lose a tiny bit of pace with TC but you gain a lot on the wear issue. All in all you'd have to be a really good driver to achieve the same wear reduction without losing nearly any pace.

@first post, TC is supposed to do that, what do you expect?

Pink_650S
15-08-2015, 09:41
But if he turned off the TC, he wouldnt beat others in the F/A 99% of the time anymore :(

fa-racing
15-08-2015, 13:51
To say it in simple words, tires produce the maximum "acceleration force" at a tire slip ratio of between 8 and 15% depending on the specific tire. So for example if you set a value lower than 12%, you are not using the full longitudinal potential of it. However, while cornering, slip reduces the cornering stiffness on the rear axis for RWD. Tire slip on the rear axis leads to oversteer :O. So setting a lower TC value than the optimum for the tire cold make sense for some drivers in some situations. TC can be a very powerful tool when it comes to tire wear and tire temps. For example, setting 12-14% on a LMP1 cars makes it saver to drive but also reduces the tire slip to a sensible degree. You probably will lose a tiny bit of pace with TC but you gain a lot on the wear issue. All in all you'd have to be a really good driver to achieve the same wear reduction without losing nearly any pace.

@first post, TC is supposed to do that, what do you expect?

My Tc slip is 15% for monza with acceleration thing at 11% and torque preload at 20nm

fa-racing
15-08-2015, 13:53
But if he turned off the TC, he wouldnt beat others in the F/A 99% of the time anymore :(

If I start my own lobby, I don't turn on Tc or stability control...

Pink_650S
15-08-2015, 13:57
If I start my own lobby, I don't turn on Tc or stability control...

Then why care about not being able to do burnouts with TC? I dont understand...

fa-racing
15-08-2015, 15:34
Then why care about not being able to do burnouts with TC? I dont understand...

Fair point, however what about the people that like burnouts, but can't drive without traction control?

miagi
15-08-2015, 15:58
Fair point, however what about the people that like burnouts, but can't drive without traction control?
Burnouts are only for the cool kids!!!

hkraft300
15-08-2015, 16:00
Fair point, however what about the people that like burnouts, but can't drive without traction control?

They need to stay in spectate mode to watch and learn ;)

Dyemonic
15-08-2015, 18:52
Having TC on for launching can be extremely detrimental to the cars performance (at launch). Normally TC will be turned off until certain conditions are met (possibly just a minimum speed) and LC (launch control) will be used for the initial period of launching. If pCARS just uses TC for launching, it would be an improvement to setup a simple LC system.

To understand why TC isn't normally used for LC, think of a RWD car making a launch. The reference speed will be the front wheels and the drive speed is the rears. There will be an immediate spike to an infinite % of slip. While the ground speed is still low, the percentage slip can still be incredibly high. Regardless, if the LC system is well tuned it will (usually) prevent the cars from doing burnouts.

With that said, only having TC as a single set point of percent slip is a terrible, yet simple, method for TC.

Gravit8
15-08-2015, 22:00
Fair point, however what about the people that like burnouts, but can't drive without traction control?

Dislike^^
They better learn to.
No fake AI burn outs for you

It's bad enough getting beat by someone using assists and taking the easy route. When your working your ass off without them. It's just aggravating to watch them do a little TC slip for fun in front of you so they can revel in "Smoking" us.
At least they took your lame little victory dance away. You still get to win races easier than others. Enjoy.

SENNABOY1
15-08-2015, 22:25
The first time I played this I had all the assists off,then added each assist just to keep it on the track,the only one I needed was stability control,with TC andSC both off was too close on the edge from spinning off ,I didn't really want to add TC because of all the reasons we've mentioned,

nhitrac
15-08-2015, 22:27
In real life where cars have TC, how do does the driver get the car to spin around on the spot after going off track? Is it a matter of disabling TC?

Psychomatrix
15-08-2015, 22:50
Burnouts and donats help to understand the car. First thing what nigel mansell done when he drove the first time the lola indy car, is to make donats and such stuff to get a feel for the racing machine.

In my opinion some cars are way to easy to drive here even without assits. Not all cars but some cars accelerate even without tc as they had one. Some gt3 cars have a lauch control which you can't deactivate. Not bad idea.... when I drive without assist than I do not want such stuff. And nearly every gt3 car have this "launch assist". People who don't believe should practice starts without ads and with telemetry on. You can see that the ps goes down when you starts. Mc laren gt3 is one where you can see that. Ive always perfect starts with that car. It feels not natural that you can lauch a 500 ps car that easy even with slicks. I never need tc in pc except in some formula a races. In comparison to RRE, Rfactor2 or the GTR Series the gt3 cars in project cars are very gentle to drive even without assist.

TrevorAustin
15-08-2015, 22:50
Fair point, however what about the people that like burnouts, but can't drive without traction control?

Do you understand what tc does and why?

fa-racing
16-08-2015, 01:02
Do you understand what tc does and why?

I think Tc makes your car fly /s

I know what it is, just comparing it to 2.0 where you could do burnouts and shit, but still harshly accelerate without spinning out within reason.
Now you can't do burnouts, which isn't that big of a problem.

I was just pointing out that it may be too powerful as a 750hp vehicle can't do doughnuts at all.

TrevorAustin
16-08-2015, 01:06
You must have it set too high, mine can, sometimes when i don't want them too:)

fa-racing
16-08-2015, 01:47
You must have it set too high, mine can, sometimes when i don't want them too:)

Same setup as before bro. Just adjusted the suspension stiffness and tire pressure

AdM1
16-08-2015, 02:00
Only girls drive with TC on ;).

miagi
16-08-2015, 05:27
In my opinion some cars are way to easy to drive here even without assits. Not all cars but some cars accelerate even without tc as they had one. Some gt3 cars have a lauch control which you can't deactivate. Not bad idea.... when I drive without assist than I do not want such stuff. And nearly every gt3 car have this "launch assist". People who don't believe should practice starts without ads and with telemetry on. You can see that the ps goes down when you starts. Mc laren gt3 is one where you can see that. Ive always perfect starts with that car. It feels not natural that you can lauch a 500 ps car that easy even with slicks. I never need tc in pc except in some formula a races. In comparison to RRE, Rfactor2 or the GTR Series the gt3 cars in project cars are very gentle to drive even without assist.
Are you using auto-clutch? Because auto-clutch reduces the torque to the rear wheels by applying some clutch so that the engine doesn't stall.
Power = torque * rpm, if the engine rpm is low, you will have low power. Torque is what you need to make a burn out. That is the reason a good old US muscle car is good for burnouts, those engines didn't have that much peak power, but lots of capacity and therefor torque.
The McLaren GT3 is a turbo charged car, such an engine runs in NA mod up to a certain point, then the turbo creates overpressure in the intake manifold. Means it starts with linear NA typ of torque curve and then it gets a quite constant torque over the rpm-band up to high rpm when torque goes down again a bit, due to friction. And a tire likes that, they benefit from a progressive torque curve instead of being smashed with a big pill of torque right away.
The reason is, looking at the force to slip ratio, they have a stable path and an unstable one. Keeping it in the stable path is important, also what a TC does. Stable path means +1%-Point slip from 7% to 8% means, the tire will put down 850 N to the road instead of 800 N. In the unstable path, going +1%-Point slip from 15% to 16% means, the tire could only transfer 850 N to the road @15%, while the drivetrain outputs 900 N to the road and at 16% it can only do 800 N while the drivetrain still puts 900 N out. If the tire can put less force to the road than the drivetrain sends to it, the slip ratio will be increased, making the tire being even less capable in the unstable path.

Kicking the tire into the unstable path is how you do burnouts, adding toque more progressive is how you use the tire best. Btw. best way to go from low to very high toque is reducing the torque by extremely delaying the ignition point and then from one working cycle to the another go for AQ50 8°Crankshafts after TDC.


Only girls drive with TC on ;).
Real world race drivers are girls?

Joni Varis
16-08-2015, 05:37
Same setup as before bro. Just adjusted the suspension stiffness and tire pressure

FA atleast has new tyres that came along with 3.0 patch (actually allready in 2.5 for pc) & that might explain why its different now vs 2.0

But i have never tried it with tc on, so cant really say how it was before patch vs post patch. You can definately still burn the h*ll out of tyres with TC off tho :)

AdM1
16-08-2015, 06:22
Are you using auto-clutch? Because auto-clutch reduces the torque to the rear wheels by applying some clutch so that the engine doesn't stall.
Power = torque * rpm, if the engine rpm is low, you will have low power. Torque is what you need to make a burn out. That is the reason a good old US muscle car is good for burnouts, those engines didn't have that much peak power, but lots of capacity and therefor torque.
The McLaren GT3 is a turbo charged car, such an engine runs in NA mod up to a certain point, then the turbo creates overpressure in the intake manifold. Means it starts with linear NA typ of torque curve and then it gets a quite constant torque over the rpm-band up to high rpm when torque goes down again a bit, due to friction. And a tire likes that, they benefit from a progressive torque curve instead of being smashed with a big pill of torque right away.
The reason is, looking at the force to slip ratio, they have a stable path and an unstable one. Keeping it in the stable path is important, also what a TC does. Stable path means +1%-Point slip from 7% to 8% means, the tire will put down 850 N to the road instead of 800 N. In the unstable path, going +1%-Point slip from 15% to 16% means, the tire could only transfer 850 N to the road @15%, while the drivetrain outputs 900 N to the road and at 16% it can only do 800 N while the drivetrain still puts 900 N out. If the tire can put less force to the road than the drivetrain sends to it, the slip ratio will be increased, making the tire being even less capable in the unstable path.

Kicking the tire into the unstable path is how you do burnouts, adding toque more progressive is how you use the tire best. Btw. best way to go from low to very high toque is reducing the torque by extremely delaying the ignition point and then from one working cycle to the another go for AQ50 8°Crankshafts after TDC.


Real world race drivers are girls?

This isn't real world, this is a game. Sorry to dissapoint you about that.

I play all cars TC off with a controller. Half the fun is the challenge. Luckily unlike in the 'real world' when you spin off track at 100+ mph you don't worry about wasting tons of money and risking injury or death.

Please don't be so sensitive to take offence to my tongue in cheek joke about using TC. Its just banter and you know its true..

MitchR32
16-08-2015, 06:31
It's a game yes, one that's simulating real world physics. This ain't Need for Speed.....

Psychomatrix
16-08-2015, 06:34
Are you using auto-clutch? Because auto-clutch reduces the torque to the rear wheels by applying some clutch so that the engine doesn't stall.
Power = torque * rpm, if the engine rpm is low, you will have low power. Torque is what you need to make a burn out. That is the reason a good old US muscle car is good for burnouts, those engines didn't have that much peak power, but lots of capacity and therefor torque.
The McLaren GT3 is a turbo charged car, such an engine runs in NA mod up to a certain point, then the turbo creates overpressure in the intake manifold. Means it starts with linear NA typ of torque curve and then it gets a quite constant torque over the rpm-band up to high rpm when torque goes down again a bit, due to friction. And a tire likes that, they benefit from a progressive torque curve instead of being smashed with a big pill of torque right away.
The reason is, looking at the force to slip ratio, they have a stable path and an unstable one. Keeping it in the stable path is important, also what a TC does. Stable path means +1%-Point slip from 7% to 8% means, the tire will put down 850 N to the road instead of 800 N. In the unstable path, going +1%-Point slip from 15% to 16% means, the tire could only transfer 850 N to the road @15%, while the drivetrain outputs 900 N to the road and at 16% it can only do 800 N while the drivetrain still puts 900 N out. If the tire can put less force to the road than the drivetrain sends to it, the slip ratio will be increased, making the tire being even less capable in the unstable path.

Kicking the tire into the unstable path is how you do burnouts, adding toque more progressive is how you use the tire best. Btw. best way to go from low to very high toque is reducing the torque by extremely delaying the ignition point and then from one working cycle to the another go for AQ50 8°Crankshafts after TDC.


Real world race drivers are girls?

Thanks for the explanation in detail :)

hkraft300
16-08-2015, 08:14
This isn't real world, this is a game...

Blasphemy!
*ready pitchfork

TrevorAustin
16-08-2015, 10:22
This isn't real world, this is a game. Sorry to dissapoint you about that.

I play all cars TC off with a controller. Half the fun is the challenge. Luckily unlike in the 'real world' when you spin off track at 100+ mph you don't worry about wasting tons of money and risking injury or death.

Please don't be so sensitive to take offence to my tongue in cheek joke about using TC. Its just banter and you know its true..


What do you mean it's only a game, lol.
Only children drive with controllers:)

Flaw3dGenius
16-08-2015, 10:56
Only girls drive with TC on ;).

Flaming Sheilas

AdM1
16-08-2015, 13:46
Haha :).

Too easy you lot.

Gravit8
17-08-2015, 01:37
Burnouts and donats help to understand the car. First thing what nigel mansell done when he drove the first time the lola indy car, is to make donats and such stuff to get a feel for the racing machine.

In my opinion some cars are way to easy to drive here even without assits. Not all cars but some cars accelerate even without tc as they had one. Some gt3 cars have a lauch control which you can't deactivate. Not bad idea.... when I drive without assist than I do not want such stuff. And nearly every gt3 car have this "launch assist". People who don't believe should practice starts without ads and with telemetry on. You can see that the ps goes down when you starts. Mc laren gt3 is one where you can see that. Ive always perfect starts with that car. It feels not natural that you can lauch a 500 ps car that easy even with slicks. I never need tc in pc except in some formula a races. In comparison to RRE, Rfactor2 or the GTR Series the gt3 cars in project cars are very gentle to drive even without assist.

I think the RWD P30 comes with assists as well? Feels like it. But anyway.
I'm pretty sure the lotus and the mark 4 ford historic can fill your need for difficulty should you choose to go that route. I think the gt3 cars and lmp's just really do have crazy grip in real life plus assists for drivers.
But there are avenues you are missing I think if you have not seen how slippy those old cars are. Try them.
Seems accurate. New modern cars are just easier to drive.

hkraft300
17-08-2015, 04:04
Lotus 98T ain't that bad... Mad burn outs when you want it. Lots of grip when you're not being silly and respect the boost.
P30 doesn't need assists it has so much grip it's almost a snooze fest.

What psychomatrix speaks of has been discussed before. It's not that in pCars they "made it easier." Just compare the older vs newer stuff gravit8 mentions. there are many factors involved eg tire model, the actual vehicle in question, etc
Also you can't compare a mod car in a different sim to a licensed car in pCars, and vice versa.
I haven't driven the Gt3 cars much but maybe launch control is active even with assists off. 500ps in modern slicks isn't a very big deal, and because of the number of amateur drivers in Gt3 competitions it's not a big surprise that they are seemingly easier to drive. Again, what seems easy in a sim without the fear factor is not as easy in real life as fear factor cannot be simulated.
Anyway, I still enjoy driving everything in pCars. Maybe except the Caterham 7 classic and R8 LMS because it sounds so bad to my ears lol