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View Full Version : British Time Attack Lotus 49 Silverstone International odd Tyre observation



haydnbuzz
15-08-2015, 16:42
Hi All,

I've posted previously about the Lotus 49 previously having a tyre choice of "1974 Slick" and how it seems to have disappeared from the car setup menu. I saw the community driver network British Time attack with the Lotus 49 at Silverstone International and thought I'd have a go. I was surprised to be miles off the pace initially and knew that there were several tyres to choose from so I made a setup change to the 1972 Slick, this improved my times but I was still quite a way off the pace. Several patches ago the Lotus 49 was all that I drove and I had a few setups that I'd spent some time to dial out the understeer and enable me to steer and turn the car on the throttle. I loaded up an old Cadwell Park setup that I'd used a few patches ago and was immediately on the pace. The skin on the tyre appeared to be that of a historic 67 or 68 tyre however the resistance in the wheel was stronger presumably to the increased grip provided by the tyre. This got me thinking could the previous 1974 Slick now be labelled as the Vintatge 1970 tyre, to me it certainly felt like it. I did some testing and here were my findings. These times were all achieved in free practice at Silverstone international. By no means were they hot laps or on the limit as I was only doing a few laps and keeping consistent lines for comparison. I drive with all assists off and here are my findings.

Silverstone International:
Vintage 1967 Hard: 1.17.2
Vintage 1968 Medium 1.15.2
Vintage 1970 1.10.5
Slick 1972 tyre 1.12.5

This is quite confusing as you would certainly imagine the 1972 slick to be faster than the tyres with tread. Can anybody from SMS confirm what's happened here. I'm personally thinking that the profile of the 1974 Slick has been renamed to Vintage 1970 with the profile applied and the skin changed to the period tread look.

When I loaded up my old Cadwell Park setting before attempting the time attack I got around in 1.09.6 and it was just a neater lap than my free practice Vintage 1970 time so I don't think there was any old profile as such attached to the setup. However, before the leaderboards were wiped I saved all my times and I had previously lapped Cadwell Park in 1.27.3 a few patches ago on the 1974 Slick, I had another go after discovering my findings today but could only manage a 1.30.5 (using the Vintage 1970). It was not a hooked up lap by any means as I'm out of practice with my favorite car but it does leave that element of thought/doubt of if the Vintage 1970 is exactly the same profile as the missing 1974 Slick.

I'm just curious about this as it would be good to know the definitive answer, I was more fussed about this before the leaderboards were wiped tbh as I was frustrated that I couldn't get close to any of my previous times on what mistakenly I thought was the fastest tyre 1972 Slick. In my opinion if it is indeed the same profile with a period tyre skin it will make visuals more realistic so I'm happy with that as opposed to slicks on these cars which look slightly wrong in my opinion. It may however be confusing to those who naturally presume the slick will be quickest if they're new to the Lotus 49.

Anway definitive answers would be greatly appreciated if anybody knows anything!

ibby
15-08-2015, 18:15
Hm, did my 1:08.939 with the 1972 also all assists off and that wasn't really anything too special. Now I think I'm gonna try the 1970 :)
Let's see if they're really faster or maybe just more suited for your driving style.

choupolo
15-08-2015, 18:40
I'm trying this event at the moment. So after reading this, I experimented with the 72 slick and vintage 70 tyres using exactly the same setup as I had already.

I had managed a 1:08.1 with the 72 slick before. Just now with the vintage 70 I managed a 1:07.7.

BUT the behaviour of the car with the vintage 70s on is much more stable if a little understeery. The 72 slick is very tricky to keep stable mid corner needing some fine throttle feathering to avoid both lift off oversteer and power oversteer - the overall effect being that I'm much more tentative powering out of corners. I think that I have more grip with the 72 slick and could better my 1:07.7 if I only had enough skill to keep it in the optimal range and keep the power down.

The vintage 70 seems to act like all assists are on and there is much more room for error, but the understeer is a hindrance. This could all be down to setup though. Perhaps your setup allows for better use of the vintage 70 than mine?

All in all I think the 72 slick and vintage 70 are capable of the same lap times, but exhibit very different handling characteristics that might suit one setup over another. Which is pretty cool actually.

ibby
15-08-2015, 20:53
1:07:1 now with the 70 tyre. Indeed quite a bit better for me. :)
Needed to turn down the FFB for the car even with the classic preset.

The 72 has quite an evil snapback and you need to have faster reactions on the edge.
Also does seem less grippier to me though even when holding it on the griplimit.

choupolo
15-08-2015, 22:48
Yes, also improved with a setup tailored to the 70 tyre. I just think it's much more predictable than the slick.

The slick still turns in better imo. But from mid corner to exit it gets emotional! :D

haydnbuzz
16-08-2015, 11:46
Certainly seems that you're both finding the same in that the Vintage 70 is slightly faster and more manageable then than the 72 Slick. Thinking about it presumably the 72 Slick would be a cross ply tyre so should feel quite manageable at bigger slip angles that it does in game. I'm certainly very hesitant on the throttle in it for the reasons you've both mentioned. We may have to test what happens if you mix the two with the 72 on the front and Vintage 1970 at the rear now we can with the 3.0 patch!

SpeedFreakDTM
16-08-2015, 13:52
Is this a community event?

choupolo
16-08-2015, 15:47
Yes it is. 6 days left on it.

I tried the slick front and vintage rear combo and it helped me improve further. Now have more grip at the front, but as a result the back breaks away again under braking. Still trying to reduce this by softening the rear. Although the front sticks better, the grip is less progressive and so getting the entry speed right is key.

I did have the top time on PS4 for about 5 minutes before it was beaten by 0.05s!

b_akerlite
16-08-2015, 16:18
loving this event!

Does anyone know what tyre temps I should be aiming for with the vintage 1970 tyres?

Andrew Weber
16-08-2015, 17:45
The Vintage series tires is something I was (and still am) working on. The idea was that the same base tire per year could be reapplied to different cars. I do not know why some of the choices are disappearing on some cars though (as I am more looking a lot at PCars 2 at the moment). But I do know some reasons why the 1972 may be slower on the 49 than the 1970. First the Lotus 72D, which that tire is more tuned for, is kind of a freak (in a good way) of a car. It likes tires sort of out of the ordinary (much like the real 72D). Also, Doug has done a final pass on most of the primary tires for cars to meet certain criteria, meaning the 1972 tire has had this pass, while the 1970 has not (which is fine: different interpretations). This further makes the "Vintage Storyline" not necessarily continuous. Note though, that this is "recognized" in that the raw (my series mostly as a contiguous series) vintage tires have the word "Vintage" in their name, while a tire like the 72 tire does not.

haydnbuzz
16-08-2015, 21:07
Thanks for the really useful info Andrew, interesting to hear the process behind it all and the explanations into the differences.

SpeedFreakDTM
16-08-2015, 22:03
I don't have this community event.

Is it only available after patch 3.0

Doug914
17-08-2015, 02:32
Loosing some of the tires had to do with there being more tires available than there were available compounds in the pit strategy rotation. We needed to adhere to that new change and drop some of them unfortunately. (Answering from vacation at the beach :))

Andrew Weber
17-08-2015, 04:12
Loosing some of the tires had to do with there being more tires available than there were available compounds in the pit strategy rotation. We needed to adhere to that new change and drop some of them unfortunately. (Answering from vacation at the beach :))

Thanks for the reply, although what in the world are you doing looking at this forum from the beach? Sand in computer. Hard to see in sun. Eyes looking down instead of the "scenery".

Invincible
17-08-2015, 08:04
Thanks for the reply, although what in the world are you doing looking at this forum from the beach? Sand in computer. Hard to see in sun. Eyes looking down instead of the "scenery".

Andrew is right. Get back to work erm... back to your vacation I mean. Forget about this forum and relax. Holiday will be over soon enough.

choupolo
17-08-2015, 14:18
I don't have this community event.

Is it only available after patch 3.0

That's probably right. It only appeared after the patch for me.

gmanzaa
17-08-2015, 23:41
Anyone know why some ghosts go into the pits???

N0body Of The Goat
18-08-2015, 05:08
Anyone know why some ghosts go into the pits???

Wasn't there an exploit at Silverstone (not sure if this was just GP), where drivers were driving into the pits for a quicker lap?

I thought this was fixed though in patch 3.

Which ghosts?

choupolo
18-08-2015, 09:37
Only checked a couple of ghosts during this one. The only thing I noticed once was that the ghost lap was different to the leaderboard lap.

Loaded up a faster ghost once and half way round the first lap I was ahead thinking wow, I might beat it! Crossed the line ahead but my time was a second slower, before realising this ghost was actually a much slower lap!

I'll check on the pit short cut and report back.

yusupov
18-08-2015, 09:54
i think this would be a lot cooler if everyone was forced to use period appropriate tires, or at least that thats an idea in mind for future events

Joca63
18-08-2015, 17:41
i think this would be a lot cooler if everyone was forced to use period appropriate tires, or at least that thats an idea in mind for future events

We will never get everybody on the same page as long as the LB mixes players with aids on and off too...this is the kind of car that TC and ABS helps a lot. We could have separate LBs regarding assists.

Octane100
18-08-2015, 19:34
We will never get everybody on the same page as long as the LB mixes players with aids on and off too...this is the kind of car that TC and ABS helps a lot. We could have separate LBs regarding assists.

I couldnt agree more with you on this. These time trials are meaningless unless we know what aids people are using. Without assists the best i can do is a 1.13 thats no aids whatosever. Just by switching on the aids i can drop 4 seconds off my time , all this without even trying to tune the car.

Im convinced mr Choupolo is using the full spectrum of aids, not hating just stating !

I doubt id get anywhere near his time even with his custom tune and the aids on as that is a very good time with a control pad.

Just pisses me off that this game is forcing me to use false aids (for the vehicles time period) in order to be competitive.

Why I cant see the times of like minded drivers is beyond me. If the pc gamers have this functionality , separate leaderboards and visible driving aids why on earth did you guys neglect this feature for the consoles.

MASSIVE OVERSIGHT and please fellas dont give us that claptrap that it was too much work or not possible for the console as games have had these features since the last gen.

Oh and for the record i frigging love this game, nothing out there (on console at least) comes close to the driving and racing experience this game provides.

Shame, what appear to be little things like that can slightly spoil the experience!

yusupov
18-08-2015, 19:58
yeah, dont think we necessarily need separate leaderboards, but itd be nice to have a filter of some kind + indication of assists used. you can assume the top times use best tires available but something as simple as 'real assists' vs artificial would be great.

Octane100
18-08-2015, 20:13
yeah, dont think we necessarily need separate leaderboards, but itd be nice to have a filter of some kind + indication of assists used. you can assume the top times use best tires available but something as simple as 'real assists' vs artificial would be great.

No you misinterpret what i say , i dont mean separate leader boards for assists v non assists i was referring to separate leader boards per vehicle. Which console does not have they only have them grouped by class

Joca63
18-08-2015, 20:35
If the pc gamers have this functionality , separate leaderboards and visible driving aids why on earth did you guys neglect this feature for the consoles!

I am not sure we have this on the PC side too, in the community events, unless I am blind...I will take another look later, but I think we do not have this inside the game. So far I have the 6th time there (assists off) and I am 1.3 seconds behind the leader, I would love to see if those guys in front of me have any assists on.

gmanzaa
18-08-2015, 21:15
Can't remember which ghosts they were around the 1:07 mark

ahf74
18-08-2015, 23:50
Hi, Joca63 here in this page shown who use assistance.

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard/event?event=54

tytanfyre
19-08-2015, 07:08
Hi, Joca63 here in this page shown who use assistance.

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard/event?event=54

Ok, this is very useful info, didn't know about this.

Can someone clarify this scenario, I am running REAL assists with assists turned OFF on HUD, I am currently 14th in the list. I try this morning with NO assists. Couple of laps don't feel any difference, roughly same lap times.

Back to REAL assists. Even though I turn assists OFF when in REAL via keyboard assignments, LB still registers ON.

I've just woken up, had a coffee, brain on overdrive, I'll probably calm done and wonder why I am so bothered about this in an hour.......all good fun anyway!

choupolo
19-08-2015, 08:24
Hi everyone,

For the record I agree with what has been said about assists. I'm all for authenticity and it would have been cool to have no assists and period tyres forced for this challenge.

Until now I have usually used assists as I'm not good enough to make the fine movements needed on a gamepad without them. I found myself to be competitive on this one (which is not always the case!) so I just carried on. It has been interesting to hear people's reactions - some congratulatory and some otherwise. It's a new experience! People haven't really cared what assists I use until today haha! Sorry to have spoilt the experience for some of you.

Quite happy to have a go without assists and see how the times compare. The Lotus 49 spins it's wheels and locks its brakes more than any other car I've tried even with assists on (so it wasn't a walk in the park to get the time), I can't imagine how much it will without them. I'll let you know. :D

N0body Of The Goat
19-08-2015, 11:34
Ok, this is very useful info, didn't know about this.

Can someone clarify this scenario, I am running REAL assists with assists turned OFF on HUD, I am currently 14th in the list. I try this morning with NO assists. Couple of laps don't feel any difference, roughly same lap times.

Back to REAL assists. Even though I turn assists OFF when in REAL via keyboard assignments, LB still registers ON.

I've just woken up, had a coffee, brain on overdrive, I'll probably calm done and wonder why I am so bothered about this in an hour.......all good fun anyway!

There has been a longstanding issue, whereby if you have assists set to "real," the leaderboard incorrectly states all assists were active.

choupolo
19-08-2015, 11:45
Ok, two very interesting observations here:

1 - you can still cut through the pits. I did a very slow lap as I didn't want to overwrite my current time, then went through the pits and the time was registered on pit exit. I don't know if that means it would still count if I had done a fast lap or not. Don't want to try that though!

2 - I had a go with all assists turned off and.......... it felt exactly the same. I mean identical, no extra wheel spin, brakes locking or stability issues. Even managed a time within half a second within two laps. Does that mean it is not possible to turn assists on with this car or that they have no effect? Can anyone else confirm this?

EDIT: ok I just bettered my time with assists turned off in the menu, so the current time to beat is now officially a no assists time! I'm sure that makes you guys happy. :D

Here's a vid - onboard and external:


https://youtu.be/2AqyIKTMTcM

gmanzaa
19-08-2015, 19:36
Good lap! What tyre pressures are you using??

choupolo
19-08-2015, 20:55
Thanks!

1.00 fronts and 0.98 rears. But honestly don't know if you could go lower. I don't notice any difference in grip after a certain point.

gmanzaa
19-08-2015, 21:41
Im on .90 fronts and .88 back but our setups are obviously different. I'll give them ago though. I'm on your arse all the way till the last section after the straight. Can't get the traction!!