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t0daY
26-08-2015, 22:00
Finally we got the D&F recorded with the telemetry hud on. We did the test on Sakitto GP with group A cars and Clios. Hopefully it will help in some way :)

Special thanks to falcon2081, miagi, DrKabel, BumperCarrotNL and Mark Baggaley. More videos will follow from their point of view.

t0daY - BMW M3 E30 Group A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeoX3In0bz8&feature=youtu.be


falcon2081 - BMW M3 E30 Group A (Other point of view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NSD_eSiy5I&feature=youtu.be)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmoTmP8zSU


Mark Baggaley - Clio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a64Hv_c3AX4&feature=youtu.be


BumperCarrotNL - Clio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5j98tPF6-Q&feature=youtu.be


DrKabel - Clio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKlGqp9t3T8



(*WE DID IT ELMOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D DO WE GET SOME COOKIES?!?! OR MAYBE EVEN A REFUND?! :D :D :D)

Bagaz
26-08-2015, 22:02
https://youtu.be/a64Hv_c3AX4Glad to see I did this right :)

https://youtu.be/a64Hv_c3AX4

BumperCarrotNL
26-08-2015, 22:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5j98tPF6-Q&feature=youtu.be

DrKabel
26-08-2015, 22:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKlGqp9t3T8&feature=youtu.be

BumperCarrot's flip from my POV as a little bonus :D

mcarver2000
27-08-2015, 15:48
I suspect that there is some gremlin/bug (or at least a sticky wicket) in the physics of the LF suspension. This is the first sim where I am unable to tune-out inside tire heat by removing camber. No matter what I do to the LF settings, it continues to have excessive heat build-up on the inside, even on counter-clockwise tracks. Early on the HUD registered the LF hitting the bump stop (even if there was no way it could). The LF also has (what I see) as excessive overheating tendency (compared to the other tires). Changing suspension and even driving style doesn't make much difference in this tire overheating. Again, this is the first sim where I have seen this happen.

From my experience, all of the D&F's are with the LF doing the dipping. At Sakitto GP I experienced a D&P (Dip & Pitch). It probably would have been a D&F had I been driving on the edge. However, I was trying to conserve my tires and brakes and was being fairly gently going into the turns and trying to keep pace by pushing out of the turns.

NemethR
27-08-2015, 16:13
Congrats guys, unfortunately I am off from Project Cars this week, but glad, you could finally capture it.
I remember the first time we tried it together :)

See you guys next week on the racetrack.

Schnizz58
27-08-2015, 16:32
I doubt this has anything to do with anything but there is massive FFB clipping in those videos. In any case, capturing this bug in telemetry should be a huge step forward in tracking it down.

t0daY
27-08-2015, 16:36
I doubt this has anything to do with anything but there is massive FFB clipping in those videos. In any case, capturing this bug in telemetry should be a huge step forward in tracking it down.

If you are meaning the first video thats mine :D Tried out the new tweaker files from Jack Spades with some adjustments and had some clipping unfortunately... Happened also before my FFB experiment but I fixed it already :D :)

Schnizz58
27-08-2015, 16:37
If you are meaning the first video thats mine :D Tried out the new tweaker files from Jack Spades with some adjustments and had some clipping unfortunately... Happened also before my FFB experiment but I fixed it already :D :)
Wasn't just that one. It was especially bad in the first Clio vid.

Bagaz
27-08-2015, 17:55
Wasn't just that one. It was especially bad in the first Clio vid.

Yea that would be mine then.
My excuse is that I had installed a new wheel just before the race (upgraded from Logitech to Fanatec) and had not had a chance to adjust any ffb settings prior to racing.
Not that I would know what I'm doing anyway but I'm sure a quick search will put me right.
I hope that hasn't in some way invalidated the data shown.

Schnizz58
27-08-2015, 20:43
I hope that hasn't in some way invalidated the data shown.

I hadn't thought of it from that angle. I was thinking more along the lines that it might be another symptom of the root problem.

Sessionerror
10-09-2015, 22:26
Out of curiosity and as you were able to capture a couple of bugs in these sessions, what have you done to force them?

Great work anyway, I hope those vids help to get to the root of the bug ;)

Flihp
11-09-2015, 10:51
i have some from going off track. hit an invisible wall, goes to neutral and fuel tank fills up.. even thought i am off track i hope this may help. and i can replicate it easily. i even got out of the game and back in and tried again. and no issue replicating it.
Audi R8 V10 Plus, brand hatch indy Time trials.. from the external replay view you can see the wheels actually going through the bodywork. see screenshots from a previous session when i fist noticed the issue


https://youtu.be/TCBZbAE9giY


https://youtu.be/mLrLSARvOJ0


https://youtu.be/Hhluz4nge0c


https://youtu.be/yxnRMXQcrCM


https://youtu.be/Ne4bLLGPBjU


https://youtu.be/J-xtPhTo_SU


https://youtu.be/ypzSzHRnU-M

217859

217860

donpost
12-09-2015, 08:43
Nice job! Look at those wheel positions, that can't be right....they're poking through the top of the wheel arch!

Sessionerror
12-09-2015, 10:38
Did you use default setup or did you change something about it? I will try to replicate it here on my PS4 later.

Flihp
12-09-2015, 11:17
default setup... i just started doing TT with every car on brands hatch to set a lap and eventually will try to improve on it.


how i noticed it, was that i went wide. hit this invisible wall and didnt think much of it. kept driving and noticed something wasnt quite right with the car balance, then i saw i had 75L on board. i was going to report the fuel tank level as a bug. so went back in and had 5L, after trying a few laps i went wide and hit it again and suddenly had 75L again. so i started recording it to post here.

Flihp
12-09-2015, 13:37
Hey Sessionerror. if you are able to replicate the issue, have a test with the bump stops. mine were on 35 which i assume is default. i moved these to max and couldnt replicate the problem, althought replay shows whhels still going through bodywork.
i dropped bump stops to 0 and could replicate problem again. went back to 35 and could still do it. tried one step at a time ( same value each corner) and it stopped once i reached 44. well i tried 4 laps and couldnt do it. went back to 43 and it happened 2nd lap around..

i have tried 4 different cars through there , several laps and it didnt do it. n only the R8 V10 so far.. might have to try lower bump stops on other cars for an experiment.

Phil

Sessionerror
12-09-2015, 18:45
Okay, I was easily able to replicate the issue on PS4 now. Like Flihp, I started a TT Session with the Audi R8 V10 Plus at Brands Hatch with the default setup. I only use Jack Spades FFB Tweaker setting (Fy+SopLateral Mix)

Going wide in the first corner feels like you hit an invisible obstacle. Also, the fuel tank got filled up from 5 litres to 55 litres and for a short moment, the gear went back from third to first. In another lap this even occured when I stayed on track in the first corner as I heard the car hitting the ground.

The issue seems to be very easy to replicate with this combination. However I doubt that it's the same "dip & flip" bug as this seems like the invisible wall/obstacle bug.

Maybe a moderator could inform a developer as these informations might help?

Here two videos:


https://youtu.be/n3XZSgD3QuM


https://youtu.be/7HCVySapJGo

Elmo
12-09-2015, 19:05
Thanks for the detailed report - very helpful.

Indeed that isn't the D&F bug, but a different issue. One we potentially already have solved for the next patch. I'm going to pass it onto our physics staff to check it out.

Sessionerror
12-09-2015, 19:11
That's great to hear! :) So hopefully you will soon find the reason for the D&F bug as well. But with the power of the community and your dedication I'm positive ;)

Keep us up to date :)

Puffpirat
18-09-2015, 21:48
It looks like the root cause for the D&F is found and fixed! Now we just need to wait for it to land with the next patch or hotfix with the pitstop tire bug maybe hint hint ;)

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?39365-bmw-320-gr-5&p=1122320&viewfull=1#post1122320

Dynomight Motorsports
06-10-2015, 02:53
Here is mine. This usually happens on lap 20 but tonight it happened to me twice on lap 18 and 39 after I had pitted on lap 23 for tires. I only have one incident recorded as my game crashed trying to twitch 2nd places incident on lap 20. This was with Visual Damage so Damage does not matter. I don't believe it has anything to do with toe or camber, but with tire wear.

https://youtu.be/A5zkxs5F5RA

Dynomight Motorsports
06-10-2015, 14:23
Hey Sessionerror. if you are able to replicate the issue, have a test with the bump stops. mine were on 35 which i assume is default. i moved these to max and couldnt replicate the problem, althought replay shows whhels still going through bodywork.
i dropped bump stops to 0 and could replicate problem again. went back to 35 and could still do it. tried one step at a time ( same value each corner) and it stopped once i reached 44. well i tried 4 laps and couldnt do it. went back to 43 and it happened 2nd lap around..

i have tried 4 different cars through there , several laps and it didnt do it. n only the R8 V10 so far.. might have to try lower bump stops on other cars for an experiment.

Phil
So are you saying there might be a work around with the bump stops? or is this still tied to the tire wear?

Engine Of Darkness
06-10-2015, 15:19
Its probably not really a "perfect" workaround per se - the nature of the bug is that the entire suspension geometry (basically the x, y and z positions as far as i understood) can "drift" away from their original positions during a race. And sometimes this can lead to unsolvable situations for the suspension solver in the games engine in which case "weird" things start to happen.

It might be that changing the geometry in some ways can postpone the problem somewhat (which makes sense seeing as the number drift into a "unsolvable" situation might take longer).

The only "sure" workaround for now is apparently a light collision with something or doing a pit stop. According to Casey this resets the number "drift" in the suspension (but it will still start drifting again after this point, so you have to the workarounds repeatedly). As stated in a link above your posts, the issue should be fixed with the next patch.

Furthermore different cars seem to react more/ less strongly to changes due to this bug, as indicated by one of Casey's Posts on the matter.

Edit: So your best bet for now is probably to look roughly how many laps you can do on average without the bug appearing (I know, depends on track, maybe time would be more appropriate) and then subtract some safety "margin" and periodically hit something/ drive into the pits after said timeframe to avoid this bug. Not really a satisfactory solution, but nothing can be done about that till the patch hits the different platforms.

Dynomight Motorsports
09-10-2015, 01:44
So I ran a league race last night and learned a few things. I had tested earlier this week and found the bug on lap 18 and after pitting lap 39 out of 45. During the Actual Race I scraped the wall on lap 16, only on the right side as there aren't a whole lot of barriers at Silverstone near the tarmac. The new Aston GTE is also very susceptible to this bug as well. Some guys flipped multiple times. The people who scraped their car against the barriers though were spared the same fate. I'll just be glad when this is addressed with the patch, because in my league if I pit more than once I lose. Scraping the Wall is the most acceptable alternative.

Sessionerror
09-10-2015, 08:43
So, there's this one tiny line in the Patch 5.0 Release Notes:

* BMW 320 Turbo – fixed an issue where the car would start 'wandering' in straight lines after a few laps.

Will this little announcement solve the big Dip & Flip Bug? :eek: If so, that's real understatement :D:p

Edit: Okay, this answer in the Patch 5.0 Release Notes thread sounds very promising :)


As far as our testing shows, yes. We're certainly very keen to see the feedback on this once the patch has been out a while. :)

vyrush
09-10-2015, 13:25
Donington Park GP with BMW M3 GT

Happened twice in two races now, on the penultimate lap.. wonder if the new patch fixes this issue


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OptiW2uXgkQ

Sessionerror
09-10-2015, 13:28
Oh no :(

Edit: Wait...as you mention the hope for the new patch. Is the video with Patch 5.0 or 4.0?

vyrush
09-10-2015, 13:31
Oh no :(

Edit: Wait...as you mention the hope for the new patch. Is the video with Patch 5.0 or 4.0?

Thats with 4.0
currently im updating to 5.0 and hope doesn't happen during a long race..

Sessionerror
09-10-2015, 13:34
Thats with 4.0
currently im updating to 5.0 and hope doesn't happen during a long race..

Ah, okay! I was already afraid this is a 5.0 video ;)

Schnizz58
12-10-2015, 21:47
So, there's this one tiny line in the Patch 5.0 Release Notes:

* BMW 320 Turbo – fixed an issue where the car would start 'wandering' in straight lines after a few laps.

Will this little announcement solve the big Dip & Flip Bug? :eek: If so, that's real understatement :D:p

Edit: Okay, this answer in the Patch 5.0 Release Notes thread sounds very promising :)
I think they believe that it will fix it but want to err on the cautious side. So they have stopped short of claiming that it fixes the bug. In order to state that a bug is definitely fixed, they have to be able to reliably duplicate it in a test environment with the old code and then be unable to duplicate it using the same procedure with the new code. I'm not sure they ever really reached that point. However it certainly sounds promising and I know that everyone involved hopes that it does fix that nasty bug.

Bealdor
13-10-2015, 10:25
To the PC guys: Has anyone been able to run longer races since patch 5.0 got released? If yes, does this issue still occur? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

RomKnight
13-10-2015, 11:19
We'll have a 51 laps around dubai next week but until then I at least I am unsure if I can do a mockup race there.

I hope I remember this question by then to come here and tell you about it. In the last race (48 laps around Road America) I didn't hear any complaints but it was still on patch 4 i think.

Yorkie065
13-10-2015, 11:53
To the PC guys: Has anyone been able to run longer races since patch 5.0 got released? If yes, does this issue still occur? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

I've already passed on my findings to Elmo, but I shall include them hear for the public to see too.

On Friday evening, did an open public lobby session around Silverstone in the GT3's. Did some setup work in the SLS GT3 then went out for a long stint to see if I'd get the Dip & Flip. In the end I did 27 laps on the soft tyres, and did NOT get the D&F. Now I know that this was a single run, but the car felt a lot different to how it did before the patch was released in similar stages of a stint. Throughout the entire stint, the car still felt like the same car with the same setup that it had at the start, and it was just a case of losing grip in the tyres. It still felt like it responded in the same way, with the same sort of weight and reactions to riding kurbs in terms of suspension movement etc etc. Before the patch, it always felt like the car was drifting away from it's original setup the further you go into a stint, and when you either reset the car from the D&F or did a stop for new tyres, it felt completely different and again like how it was at the start of the race as it obviously reset the issue. Didn't really realise this difference in overall car feel/behaviour until the patch was released and fixed the issue. So overall, I feel fairly confident that we won't see it again.

RomKnight
22-10-2015, 10:10
We'll have a 51 laps around dubai next week but until then I at least I am unsure if I can do a mockup race there.

I hope I remember this question by then to come here and tell you about it. In the last race (48 laps around Road America) I didn't hear any complaints but it was still on patch 4 i think.

I remembered! :D

No issues in this department, at least. Then again, the rage yesterday might have deviated attention from this one.

But I don't think is a matter of concern by now, anyway.