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View Full Version : The Physics of Old vs. New



Casey Ringley
26-08-2015, 22:10
You all might have noticed some teasers of the next DLC pack going up on our Instagram @projectcarsgame - https://instagram.com/projectcarsgame/ (Are you following us on IG yet? Do it!) Thought it might be a good time to share a little of the work that went into developing the driving dynamics of each car you can expect to try in the imminent future.


BMW 2002 turbo
170hp with 0.55bar boost from the single KKK turbo. Getrag 235/8 5-speed gearbox is standard with a ton of rear end gearing options from the motorsport division and a 40% lock ZF differential by default. Suspension is made of struts at the front and semi-trailing arms at the rear; an arrangement not not all that different from the E30 Group A car used some 20 years later. Stock springs are around 275 lb/in front and 250lb/in rear and make for some lively handling. Found that they offered a 'special lightweight package' which cut kerb weight to 1035kg with a full tank of fuel, so went ahead and optioned that on to ours. Uses the same Faretti Superbelt vintage tire from our Escort Mk1 and '66 Mustang. Matches up surprisingly well with the Mustang despite the 100hp deficit. This car was really genesis for the idea of the light, nimble, turbocharged touring car and it’s really cool to see how that comes across in our systems.

BMW 320TC
We had a good starting point in the M3 GT4 and some very detailed technical manuals/setup sheets covering the differences needed to make it a WTCC car. The rules for both series require that the race car stays very close to the road car as far as bodyshell, suspension design, and aerodynamics. Fun fact: this is probably the only car we have where zero rear wing actually equals zero rear downforce. Plots in the manual show it goes from 100% front to 80% rear aero balance with increasing wing angle. (top tip: there is really no reason to run it lower than 4.0 in the setup. Real teams use a high angle even at Monza) It’s a lively car to drive. During research, I found it a little amusing to see that every other game with this or other WTCC cars has used only the FIA maximum rev limit of 8500rpm to design their engines. These really make max power around 6000rpm and you'll want to shift between 6200-6400rpm. A regulation limit of 2.5bar boost on a tiny 33mm intake restrictor means these engines are struggling for air at rpm any higher than that. That 8500rpm limiter exists, but it really is never used as the other rules around the engine are more strict. Still, it pulls *strong* for a little 1.6L unit and always feels like it has plenty of power. May have 100hp less than the M3 GT4, but it also weighs over 300kg less, has narrower, harder rubber and no TC or ABS. Can be a challenge getting the thing slowed down and out of a corner as fast as possible. Tons of fun racing in tight packs.

Ford Mustang 2+2 fastback
The Mustang was a huge hit from day one, and with models like this it’s not difficult to see why. We’ve opted for the K Code engine with 271hp, 3.0:1 rear end ratio by default as it's best for most track use, 135 lb/in rear leaf spring from the handling package, and stiffer than stock front coils as the standard 100 lb/in guys just can't handle in hard track use especially in AI hands (but they are available in setup if you want to try the car as it came out of showrooms). Lots of other little bits were able to be taken and modified from the Escort Mk1 with minor edits as the architecture is essentially similar between the two cars. Aerodynamics are not good, suspension is rough around the edges, tires are nowhere near modern standards, and that engine is well beyond all of the above, but man...Is the slowest car in game also the most fun to race? I think maybe so.

Ford Mustang GT (2015)
Independent rear suspension in a Mustang! Feels almost sacrilegious but you can’t really argue with the result. Chris Harris put out a video on the car recently and said something along the lines of ‘they’ve taken a very sophisticated car and tuned it to act like a hooligan’. I think that is about as spot on as you can get.
The nice thing about Mustangs is that hotrodders tear them apart the instant they get the chance. Means good data and numbers are already out on the interwebz that were useful to fill the gaps here. Stock springs and dampers show a significant rear bias, leading to oversteer and drifty behavior as the dominant characteristic. It feels, to me, like they have gone to some length to tune the new rear suspension so that it still has some of the feeling of the old generation’s solid rear axle. ‘Pushy-Loose’ is a term you might use for it. Not an altogether bad idea, but it does leave you feeling that some performance might be left on the table for the sake of fun dynamics. I guess that’s a choice we can stand behind, right? Plenty of room for a car to be designed for fun rather than getting that last 1s at the Nurburgring.
Decided to not use the optional 3.73 rear end in the default setup as it is useless on track. Makes 2nd gear too short to use on most tracks and you run out of 5th too early while 6th is too long for anything but highway cruising no matter what. The standard 3.55 is much better for track use if you then treat it like 6th gear doesn’t exist (Or 2nd for that matter. Run 3rd through 5th for best lap times and use the excellent torque curve to make up the difference).

Fun drive and faster overall than expected. Just heavy...


Ruf CTR ‘Yellowbird’
Engine and gearbox are all good to Ruf specs. Published power and torque numbers smell funny on this one; I think it really made a lot more than the 470hp they claim and definitely made a lot more than 408lb-ft in torque. Aero model has been roughly matched to data available for the Porsche 930 with a whale tail. Suspension is strut front and semi-trailing arm rear with spring rates I quickly found other people using on 930 Porsches. Didn't spend much time tuning it as we've got an expert amongst us in Doug, but it's already good fun.
Set it to use our Masculin tire set and it matches up quite well with the modern cars when running on those. Also added a 'CTR Denloc D40' tire to copy period-correct Dunlop Denloc D40s that originally came with the car and were used for the famous 8:05 Nurburgring lap; go watch the Fascination video on Youtube if you haven’t already. Bit of a handful, but I expect a lot of you here will like that.

Doug: Interestingly, I actually drove one of these cars (pretty sure it was a real one) at Watkins Glen back in the early 90's. It belonged to a well-off club member who was looking for an opinion on his driving.. The thing i remember most about it was not being able to get the throttle all the way down on the straights until just before the the braking area for the next corner. Saying it's handfull is an understatement.
We were talking more like 600 hp at the time in conversations. I thought it had adjustable boost, but that might have been added by the shop that was supporting this car.
Set physics to all the info i have from the years setting these types of cars up. Changed the brake power and bias, moved the weight bias back to 40/60, Adjusted the motion ratios to some direct measurements i've used setting up 911/930's. Casey’s spring rate and damper values were almost spot on. Some slight tweaks needed there. Added proper sized swaybars. It all works pretty well. Get your trailing throttle heads screwed on for this one

This is one epic car. If you’re on the fence about this DLC, IMO this is the car that should push you over.


Ruf Rt12 R
We could 'steal' a lot from the RGT-8 for suspension and basics. Aero package is more or less a mildly-tamed Cup car, so scaled down the aero package for a GT3 Cup we made many moons ago and used that. Good for around 400lb downforce at 150mph. Weird gearing on this one. Huge spacing in the first three and 3rd gear takes you all the way to 120mph, then 4th-6th are very evenly spaced up to top speed of 370kmh. For most tracks, that means you just put it in 3rd gear and leave it there for a long time; let massive mountains of torque handle the rest. It works out well, but it’s a slightly unusual technique for most drivers. AWD is an option on this car, and we opted to use it. The rear engine weight bias means not too much it sent to the front, but it’s enough to make a difference pulling out of corner exits, which it does in a strong way. Used our Audi R8 V10 plus method for sending roughly 15% of engine power to the front wheels. Really fun car. Very quick!

flymar
26-08-2015, 22:55
Thanks for sharing:) Are the livery customization allowed?

fa-racing
26-08-2015, 23:04
So is the dlc out?

Racer Pro
26-08-2015, 23:11
the DLC is out in Quebec Canada

Sasquatch
26-08-2015, 23:34
I do agree that, IMO, the RUF Yellowbird literally stole the pack, while I was more excited for the BMW 320, and the additions to Historic B... the 2002 & the Mustang... to be very honest.. I cringed a bit and I was hoping it wouldn't end up a physics-slaughter like the Forza & Gran Turismo examples.

It proved me so very very very wrong, it has dragged me back to time trials around the Nurburgring over and over again this evening after my day. I have to give it to SMS, they got that aircooled boxer sound on point. Many memories were generated. It's a car that leaves you satisfied over a lap, gives you little margin of improvement each time... it'll also go wild with too much and become a widowmaker+ much like that generation of 911's were known for.

Thank you SMS. Thank you.

Octane100
27-08-2015, 00:32
Great write up as usual Casey, I really enjoy reading all the little informational titbits and setup quirks. It is amazing how much attention to detail you guys put in when translating the real world handling characteristics and behaviours of said vehicles into their digitalized versions.

I only wish you could do these write ups for all the cars in the game not just dlc vehicles.Any chance something like that already exists? Production notes from when the game was being planned ?

Im sure im not the only one who would want to read that!

Keep up the good work.

Roll on next months dlc !

TexasTyme214
27-08-2015, 00:32
This is a great write up once again! What're the damper switchover speeds for these?

Felipe Becker
27-08-2015, 01:31
Great info! Can't wait to put my hands on it! Come on Steam!

Cheesenium
27-08-2015, 02:09
Can't wait for the DLC. Both ruf seemed like they will be the best car of the pack.

lollygag
27-08-2015, 03:15
Casey, can you please give me an ETA?..

They say an erection lasting for more than 4 hours is a medical emergency and you risk permanent damage. And I dont think mines going to stop until theyre in my car list.

Mark Quigley
27-08-2015, 03:18
Casey, can you please give me an ETA?..

They say an erection lasting for more than 4 hours is a medical emergency and you risk permanent damage. And since the announcement of those Rufs I've had an erection that doesn't seem like its going to go away until theyre in my car list.

Have you seen how they fix priapism? Don't go looking for videos on how they fix priapism!

nhitrac
27-08-2015, 04:02
Have you seen how they fix priapism? Don't go looking for videos on how they fix priapism!

That's like telling a kid not to steal cookies from the cookie jar.

Thankfully I'm at work and need to be mindful of what I search whilst on a work computer.

[/picks up iphone]

pigsy
27-08-2015, 06:56
I love the commentary on these cars. I wish you could do the same for every car in the game maybe in the way of a PDF.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
27-08-2015, 07:20
Thanks for the great post Casey, you've got me worked up even more, and considering that these are all cars I've been waiting for ever since they were announced that is a mighty feat. =)

I'll be relying on you and Doug again for the necessary car information to include in the calculator. =)

bobbylion
27-08-2015, 07:42
Can't wait for the WTCC Bimmer personally, once we get patch 3 that is.

golfcab93
27-08-2015, 07:46
nice work!

But there is an easy explanation why the BMW 320 had different rev limits. The 320 raced in WTCC with Turbo and non turbo. Therefore the different rev limits

danowat
27-08-2015, 08:11
Casey, thank you, I love these posts, can I suggest something?

Any chance of a retrospective write up for some of the cars from the base game?, maybe one a week or something?

I know it takes time, but I am sure it would be appreciated.

JapImports
27-08-2015, 08:12
BMW E20 2002 Turbo has several sets of stock springs differentiated by colors and they are rated by force ( and the rate seems to be between 100-200 lb/in ). Bump stop at 85mm front.
For the rear diff, most 2002 are either short or long neck with 3.64 ratio, some early Tii has 3.45 and 3.36 for turbo. 3.90 and 4.11 rear end also offered, mostly for motorsport use. Most stock LSD were indeed 40% lock, but optional 75% also available and 40% lsd can be easily converted to 75% by adding more clutch plates. 3.64 with 40% LSD is one of the rare find rear diff :) There is also Getrag 235/5 optional Dogleg close-ratio 5-speed for the 2002, these are available in 3 sets of ratio, street, rally and race, this is option part even for the 2002 Turbo.

The standard fitment for 2002 Turbo is 4 speed Getrag 232 - 3.76, 2.09, 1.32, 1.00, the 235/8 close ratio was optional available in 2 sets. 2.72, 1.84, 1.38, 1.13, 1.00. and 2.91, 1.97, 1.48, 1.21, 1.00. The front roll bar/stabilizer is 19mm, contrary to some wrote as 20mm ( optional 22mm ), rear stays at 16mm ( optional 18mm ). Caster at 4degree30', alignment stock range : front toe in 1.5mm, camber +0.5 degree +/- 0.5, rear toe in 2mm, camber -2.5degrees +/- 0.5
Running heaviest weight at around 1178kg, base with full fuel tank 1080kg with distribution around 55.x/44.x and often at 56% front, ground clearance reports are varied from 100mm to 5.9" or 150mm and 2002 spec at 6.3" or 160mm. Tire pressure : 26psi all around ( recommended/test cold pressure )


While the CTR Yellowbird has torsion bars with Bilstein dampers, also offered on the RUF 911 Turbo as published on RUF brochures back in the day, they are pretty soft in rate from what I gather from measured torsion bars rate by Rennlist. CTR Yellowbird boost is adjustable, and it has about 518PS when raced at Tsukuba from Best Motoring video back in early 90's, a boost up to 1.35 Bar yield 524PS. Stock CTR Yellowbird boost set at 1.1 Bar, max boost at 1.4 Bar, at stock 1.1 Bar, about 470+PS would be reasonable. The top speed run back in the day that set the record was highly likely done on max boost or closer. RUF offered several LSD lock for CTR, from 60% to 80%, Sports Auto test on Yellowbird wrote 80% LSD ( on the MNP 911 original car ). 60% lock is standard offering for customer. Test weight was 1222kg with 40:60 split. Recommended tire pressure front 30psi and rear 28psi ( cold )

Just some infos that I have collected long time ago from building replicas :)

P75
27-08-2015, 08:42
Great stuff as usual Casey. I admit I was on the fence about this particular DLC, but seeing the Yellowbird in-game on YouTube has finally tipped the scale in favor of buying. Looks absolutely amazing and fun to drive. :)

danowat
27-08-2015, 08:51
Wish people would quote long posts............

Machinist90
27-08-2015, 08:56
nice work on the bodyroll....lol...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqUECjqdJkE

blot
27-08-2015, 08:58
Cheers Casey, Its great that you take the time to post this sort of information up, Keep it coming mate!

KamyKaze1098
27-08-2015, 09:05
I love the commentary on these cars. I wish you could do the same for every car in the game maybe in the way of a PDF.

Or in the game it self. As a manual kind of thing. And explain the dashboard. Some cars dashboard's are hard to understand at first, like the open lmp catheram

Khyber GT
27-08-2015, 12:32
Why in the world did yall not use the 3.73 gears in the 2015 mustang gt? Whatever you just said in that post is sad and inaccurate. that's the whole point of the performance package on the car is for the 3.73 gears that is meant for road course racing along with the suspension upgrades in the performance package! This is quite disappointing

I know I own one with the performance package and 3.73. I guess at least yall decided not to use the 3.31, thank god. If you ever add the gt350/350r please don't use that silly excuse.

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 12:58
Why in the world did yall not use the 3.73 gears in the 2015 mustang gt? Whatever you just said in that post is sad and inaccurate. that's the whole point of the performance package on the car is for the 3.73 gears that is meant for road course racing along with the suspension upgrades in the performance package! This is quite disappointing

I know I own one with the performance package and 3.73. I guess at least yall decided not to use the 3.31, thank god. If you ever add the gt350/350r please don't use that silly excuse.

Maybe it's good on certain tracks, sure. But the 3.73 will top out 5th around 140mph and the car is plenty comfortable going above that speed. So any track where you are spending time above 140 means shifting to 6th, and it is just too long to want to use. Dollars to donuts, I bet you can turn faster laps around most tracks we have with the longer gearing and less time spent rowing through the gears.

danowat
27-08-2015, 12:59
Why in the world did yall not use the 3.73 gears in the 2015 mustang gt? Whatever you just said in that post is sad and inaccurate. that's the whole point of the performance package on the car is for the 3.73 gears that is meant for road course racing along with the suspension upgrades in the performance package! This is quite disappointing

I know I own one with the performance package and 3.73. I guess at least yall decided not to use the 3.31, thank god. If you ever add the gt350/350r please don't use that silly excuse.

I think Casey explained it quite well to be honest, it's a better fit for track driving.


Decided to not use the optional 3.73 rear end in the default setup as it is useless on track. Makes 2nd gear too short to use on most tracks and you run out of 5th too early while 6th is too long for anything but highway cruising no matter what.

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 13:01
nice work!

But there is an easy explanation why the BMW 320 had different rev limits. The 320 raced in WTCC with Turbo and non turbo. Therefore the different rev limits

The non-turbo 320 was the 320si. That was later replaced by the 320TC (the one we have) with the 1.6L turbo 'global race engine' formula. Strangely enough, it seems like the old 8500rpm rev limit rule is still in place even though the engines work at a much lower rpm. I think that's where the confusion comes from.

Khyber GT
27-08-2015, 13:09
Maybe it's good on certain tracks, sure. But the 3.73 will top out 5th around 140mph and the car is plenty comfortable going above that speed. So any track where you are spending time above 140 means shifting to 6th, and it is just too long to want to use. Dollars to donuts, I bet you can turn faster laps around most tracks we have with the longer gearing and less time spent rowing through the gears.

You're not being authentic then. the car better not have any of the performance package items(cosmetic or suspension) or act like it if you're keeping it to 3.55 because it's impossible to get performance package and 3.55 from ford unless someone switched out the rear end themselves which no one in their right mind would do because that's the point of the performance package. I hope in game it's just a GT premium then or base GT without performance package then if yall are sticking to 3.55.


I think Casey explained it quite well to be honest, it's a better fit for track driving.

it's not, that's why ford has the 3.73 rear, for road racing. That's the whole point of 3.73 and the performance package. Not for drag racing, for road racing. yeah of course you'll shift more but the power will be there.


either way game isn't an accurate sim anyways. so I guess at least I'm happy it's coming because forza has been the only game with the car.

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 13:14
BMW E20 2002 Turbo has several sets of stock springs differentiated by colors and they are rated by force ( and the rate seems to be between 100-200 lb/in ). Bump stop at 85mm front.
For the rear diff, most 2002 are either short or long neck with 3.64 ratio, some early Tii has 3.45 and 3.36 for turbo. 3.90 and 4.11 rear end also offered, mostly for motorsport use. Most stock LSD were indeed 40% lock, but optional 75% also available and 40% lsd can be easily converted to 75% by adding more clutch plates. 3.64 with 40% LSD is one of the rare find rear diff :) There is also Getrag 235/5 optional Dogleg close-ratio 5-speed for the 2002, these are available in 3 sets of ratio, street, rally and race, this is option part even for the 2002 Turbo.

The standard fitment for 2002 Turbo is 4 speed Getrag 232 - 3.76, 2.09, 1.32, 1.00, the 235/8 close ratio was optional available in 2 sets. 2.72, 1.84, 1.38, 1.13, 1.00. and 2.91, 1.97, 1.48, 1.21, 1.00. The front roll bar/stabilizer is 19mm, contrary to some wrote as 20mm ( optional 22mm ), rear stays at 16mm ( optional 18mm ). Caster at 4degree30', alignment stock range : front toe in 1.5mm, camber +0.5 degree +/- 0.5, rear toe in 2mm, camber -2.5degrees +/- 0.5
Running heaviest weight at around 1178kg, base with full fuel tank 1080kg with distribution around 55.x/44.x and often at 56% front, ground clearance reports are varied from 100mm to 5.9" or 150mm and 2002 spec at 6.3" or 160mm. Tire pressure : 26psi all around ( recommended/test cold pressure )


While the CTR Yellowbird has torsion bars with Bilstein dampers, also offered on the RUF 911 Turbo as published on RUF brochures back in the day, they are pretty soft in rate from what I gather from measured torsion bars rate by Rennlist. CTR Yellowbird boost is adjustable, and it has about 518PS when raced at Tsukuba from Best Motoring video back in early 90's, a boost up to 1.35 Bar yield 524PS. Stock CTR Yellowbird boost set at 1.1 Bar, max boost at 1.4 Bar, at stock 1.1 Bar, about 470+PS would be reasonable. The top speed run back in the day that set the record was highly likely done on max boost or closer. RUF offered several LSD lock for CTR, from 60% to 80%, Sports Auto test on Yellowbird wrote 80% LSD ( on the MNP 911 original car ). 60% lock is standard offering for customer. Test weight was 1222kg with 40:60 split. Recommended tire pressure front 30psi and rear 28psi ( cold )

Just some infos that I have collected long time ago from building replicas :)

Nice details! Ruf didn't mention the adjustable boost (in fact, I seem to recall we were told it wasn't adjustable stock) but your numbers make good sense. We've got it set at 1.2bar boost right now, but I'll look at going for a wider adjustment range for the extra fun factor.

odytsak
27-08-2015, 13:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWjUanSILI

Pink_650S
27-08-2015, 13:18
nice work on the bodyroll....lol...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqUECjqdJkE

Wow.
Has this already been acknowledged? I hope so.
Thats not acceptable.

BTT: l really like the 2002 Turbo, a blast to drive!

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 13:22
it's not, that's why ford has the 3.73 rear, for road racing. That's the whole point of 3.73 and the performance package. Not for drag racing, for road racing. yeah of course you'll shift more but the power will be there.

Try it with both and see. :) All three rear ends are available in setup. The engine pulls very strong from 3500 and that's only 45mph in 3rd gear with the 3.55. Few corners at most tracks will have you going much slower than that, so it's just not worth it to be doing the extra work shifting. The engine is badass enough to make up the difference.

Bealdor
27-08-2015, 13:30
You're not being authentic then. the car better not have any of the performance package items(cosmetic or suspension) or act like it if you're keeping it to 3.55 because it's impossible to get performance package and 3.55 from ford unless someone switched out the rear end themselves which no one in their right mind would do because that's the point of the performance package. I hope in game it's just a GT premium then or base GT without performance package then if yall are sticking to 3.55.

it's not, that's why ford has the 3.73 rear, for road racing. That's the whole point of 3.73 and the performance package. Not for drag racing, for road racing. yeah of course you'll shift more but the power will be there.


either way game isn't an accurate sim anyways. so I guess at least I'm happy it's coming because forza has been the only game with the car.

I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. The 3.73 rear option is available for this car, it's just not the default setting.

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 13:36
^Correct. All three are available as options on the real car, so we've got all three available for the player to try.

TheDoctor46
27-08-2015, 13:37
nice work on the bodyroll....lol...
Try full lock left->right within a tenth of a second in real life and it'll probably look like this :o


Nice details! Ruf didn't mention the adjustable boost (in fact, I seem to recall we were told it wasn't adjustable stock) but your numbers make good sense. We've got it set at 1.2bar boost right now, but I'll look at going for a wider adjustment range for the extra fun factor.
Sounds like a good addition for "-insane" mode...just make it 2bar ;)

mkstatto
27-08-2015, 13:43
Can we please have an option to download racing cars only, I have no interest what so ever in any road cars. I only want the Wtcc BMW in this back yet have to shell out for a bunch of cars I don't want.

FLX81
27-08-2015, 13:44
Hooned all of 'em already except the 2002 that I somehow forgot. They are all good fun, especially the BTCC Bimmer and the Ponies. Gotta say though that I was surprised how tame the Yellowbird and the old Mustang were on the throttle. Sure, you can get their ass end out at will with a tab of the loud pedal, but they are both very easy to catch, much more so than I anticipated... Unless I magically turned into some german version of Sir Kenworth Blockington overnight or something. Maybe thats just in time trial with the perfect conditions and tires etc.

One interesting detail: I thought tire wear is switched off in time trial? The old Mustang still had tire wear activated and ruined its outside tires at Watkins Glen short after 5 laps.

Bealdor
27-08-2015, 13:47
One interesting detail: I thought tire wear is switched off in time trial? The old Mustang still had tire wear activated and ruined its outside tires at Watkins Glen short after 5 laps.

Nope, tire wear is active in TT. Only mechanical failures and fuel consumption seem to be deactivated.

Pink_650S
27-08-2015, 13:51
Can we please have an option to download racing cars only, I have no interest what so ever in any road cars. I only want the Wtcc BMW in this back yet have to shell out for a bunch of cars I don't want.

Agreed.
That would actually deserve the name "On Demand".

wraithsrike
27-08-2015, 13:52
nice work on the bodyroll....lol...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqUECjqdJkE

Oh no not again :-(

cluck
27-08-2015, 14:06
£2.89? I'd have paid that just for the Yellowbird :). The BMW 2002 surprised me with just how much of a hooligan you can be with it - an absolute blast to drive around Brands :).

Fanatest
27-08-2015, 14:06
One thing I noticed was how much visibility I have in the yellowbird. The interior view is perfect! So it got me to thinking, why do all other interior views disagree with me so much?

The sunstrip! (And the pre baked view points)

I would love to have these sun strips removed (from internal view AS AN OPTION) or have them appear a little more transparent.

I'm not a fan of the road cars myself, but gave them a quick lap or two, overall I bought this for the TC.

Marrrfooo
27-08-2015, 14:29
^Correct. All three are available as options on the real car, so we've got all three available for the player to try.

I think it's a really great idea, Casey. Leverage the skills and experience of the development team and the research done for the cars to allow users to quickly adopt certain setups that were particularly prevalent with certain marques. I don't know of any other racer that's done that - perhaps Assetto or iRacing or someone does already, but either way I think it's a great idea and emphasises learning about the vehicles a little too.

diesel97
27-08-2015, 14:36
nice work on the bodyroll....lol...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqUECjqdJkE

@casey and input about hit detection on the stang 2+2 ? It wants to ride up and mount anything and everything seems like the same as the ford escort 1600 and i thought SMS fixed it

Casey Ringley
27-08-2015, 16:51
This is a great write up once again! What're the damper switchover speeds for these?

All in mm/s for bump/rebound

BMW 2002: 80/80

BMW 320TC: 50/80

Ford Mustang 1966: 80/80

Ford Mustang GT:
front - 40/40
rear - 100/100

Ruf CTR: 80/80

Ruf RT12R: 70/80

aerchak
27-08-2015, 21:58
Ford Mustang GT (2015)
Independent rear suspension in a Mustang! Feels almost sacrilegious but you can’t really argue with the result. Chris Harris put out a video on the car recently and said something along the lines of ‘they’ve taken a very sophisticated car and tuned it to act like a hooligan’. I think that is about as spot on as you can get.
The nice thing about Mustangs is that hotrodders tear them apart the instant they get the chance. Means good data and numbers are already out on the interwebz that were useful to fill the gaps here. Stock springs and dampers show a significant rear bias, leading to oversteer and drifty behavior as the dominant characteristic. It feels, to me, like they have gone to some length to tune the new rear suspension so that it still has some of the feeling of the old generation’s solid rear axle. ‘Pushy-Loose’ is a term you might use for it. Not an altogether bad idea, but it does leave you feeling that some performance might be left on the table for the sake of fun dynamics. I guess that’s a choice we can stand behind, right? Plenty of room for a car to be designed for fun rather than getting that last 1s at the Nurburgring.
Decided to not use the optional 3.73 rear end in the default setup as it is useless on track. Makes 2nd gear too short to use on most tracks and you run out of 5th too early while 6th is too long for anything but highway cruising no matter what. The standard 3.55 is much better for track use if you then treat it like 6th gear doesn’t exist (Or 2nd for that matter. Run 3rd through 5th for best lap times and use the excellent torque curve to make up the difference).

Fun drive and faster overall than expected. Just heavy...

No 2nd gear? These are the words of a coward.

How else am I supposed to fry the tires out of hairpins? I care not for lap times! This is a machine destined to hoon, and hoon well.

2nd gear is your dearest friend, because the ass of the car should be pointed sideways as often as possible.

aerchak
27-08-2015, 22:02
That being said, the 2015 Mustang is a goddamn blast.

Vit7
28-08-2015, 00:04
I would love to have these sun strips removed (from internal view AS AN OPTION) or have them appear a little more transparent.

+100

Flaw3dGenius
28-08-2015, 00:42
Can we please have an option to download racing cars only, I have no interest what so ever in any road cars. I only want the Wtcc BMW in this back yet have to shell out for a bunch of cars I don't want.

Im the same but i have just spent all night playing the the DLC cars all are great fun (i usually hate Road cars in this game) So £2.89 for a full nights worth and no doubt i'l go back to the old Beamer & New Mustang and of course use the WTCC car alot. Bargain from SMS imo.

JapImports
30-08-2015, 03:21
Nice details! Ruf didn't mention the adjustable boost (in fact, I seem to recall we were told it wasn't adjustable stock) but your numbers make good sense. We've got it set at 1.2bar boost right now, but I'll look at going for a wider adjustment range for the extra fun factor.

I read about the boost controller from rennlist ( if I remember correctly, it's long time ago ) The RUF CTR can run lower boost than 1.1 Bar as well.

On the default setup Pcars database, the wastegate pressure is default at 2.2 Bar, and you said the stock set at 1.2 Bar. The minimum wastegate pressure on pcars setup database for RUF CTR is 1.75 Bar. I had impression that these are the boost level when driven ?

The stock tire pressure for Porsche 930 at the rear tire is 43/44 Psi ( as on manual / stickers ), this is 3.0 Bar, I tried to input this on Pcars setup database, but it only maxed at 2.8 Bar :(

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
30-08-2015, 11:25
I read about the boost controller from rennlist ( if I remember correctly, it's long time ago ) The RUF CTR can run lower boost than 1.1 Bar as well.

On the default setup Pcars database, the wastegate pressure is default at 2.2 Bar, and you said the stock set at 1.2 Bar. The minimum wastegate pressure on pcars setup database for RUF CTR is 1.75 Bar. I had impression that these are the boost level when driven ?

The stock tire pressure for Porsche 930 at the rear tire is 43/44 Psi ( as on manual / stickers ), this is 3.0 Bar, I tried to input this on Pcars setup database, but it only maxed at 2.8 Bar :(Pretty sure what he meant in the descriptions was "1.2 bar over atmospheric". He also said the 2002 Turbo has 0.55 bar pressure, which obviously can't be the in-game setup figure. =)

JapImports
31-08-2015, 01:00
Pretty sure what he meant in the descriptions was "1.2 bar over atmospheric". He also said the 2002 Turbo has 0.55 bar pressure, which obviously can't be the in-game setup figure. =)

Oh. okay, thanks for the clarification :) So wastegate pressure in pcars include 1 bar atmospheric pressure, got it :)

Some more info that I have gathered in the past about CTR :

Back in 1992, Best Motoring did a full test on CTR, it was highly likely steel bodied CTR as it was heavier ( one of 22 all steel were built and only 6 CTR were lightweight body from aluminum and fiberglass ), tipping the scales at 1400kg, with 37/63 distribution. When tested on wheel Dyno at Veilside HQ, it did 518PS, beaten by F40 at 530PS ( these are highly likely adjusted HP at the crank or it maybe wheel HP running close to full boost ) The CTR tested had Bridgestone Expedia S-01 tire which was quite new back in 1992, 225/45 ZR 17" front tire, and 275/35 ZR 17" rear tire. CTR was tested on 0-400, top speed at oval test track, braking test while turning from 150kmh, wet handling ( heavy running water ) that made the car drift/sideways in a circle ( very controllable ) similar to the F40, winding road check and finally super battle at Tsukuba in which the CTR lost to the F40.

Stock boost on CTR is 16 psi or 1.1 Bar, at 1.2 Bar it can reportedly output more than 520PS at the crank, revlimit at 7400RPM ( from US delivered lightweight CTR in late 80's ). Original RUF fuel tank capacity is 106L. RUF CTR has boost valve / control kit that most people didn't know as it's sort of hidden :) RUF CTR 330 brake kit system offered also includes brake proportioning valve for rear brake circuit. RUF CTR also had front brake duct spoiler option + rear brake duct and RSR style cross brace. The late 80's US delivered lightweight CTR claimed weight was 1147kg, while the MNP 911 car was 1222kg when tested by Sport Auto 1988, so the weight difference might be the fuel :) Almost forgot, RUF CTR have 2 ring & pinion offered 8:32 and 9:31. The 9:31 is original part for the RUF 6 speed transmission offered for RUF CTR ( fitted on the US CTR ), the 6 speed can take the 8:32 as well. Another ring & pinion 9:36 also offered for 5 speed RUF transaxle.

The RUF CTR has been built in variety of paint color, from the famous yellow, green, blue, silver, black and red, many of them are in yellow. There are only 2 AWD RUF CTR, one of them based on US Carrera 4 fitted with 6 speed RUF transaxle and 550+PS output. The lightweight AWD aluminum / kevlar bodied CTR was the final line of "yellowbird" series 1 CTR and it did 0-60 in less than 3s.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
31-08-2015, 03:04
Almost forgot, RUF CTR have 2 ring & pinion offered 8:32 and 9:31. The 9:31 is original part for the RUF 6 speed transmission offered for RUF CTR ( fitted on the US CTR ), the 6 speed can take the 8:32 as well. Another ring & pinion 9:36 also offered for 5 speed RUF transaxle.This article (http://www.rufregistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sci_ruf_ctr_rufregistry_4.jpg) also claims a 3.37:1 ratio (8/27?) final drive on the 5-speed, and the ratios for 3rd, 4th and 5th are slightly different than the in-game ones, 1.12 instead of 1.17, 0.83 instead of 0.86 and 0.625 instead of 0.64.

JapImports
31-08-2015, 17:48
This article (http://www.rufregistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sci_ruf_ctr_rufregistry_4.jpg) also claims a 3.37:1 ratio (8/27?) final drive on the 5-speed, and the ratios for 3rd, 4th and 5th are slightly different than the in-game ones, 1.12 instead of 1.17, 0.83 instead of 0.86 and 0.625 instead of 0.64.

I have the RUF Turbo / CTR brochure :) The gear ratio for 5 speed offered by RUF :

1st 14/39, 2nd 20/32, 3rd 26/30, 4th 29/24, 5th 32/30

So, the Pcars values are indeed off a little bit :)
Ring Pinion are varied, RUf may have made custom ring & pinion gear according to customer needs, but the 9/36, 9/31 and 8/32 are often fitted on Ruf Turbo, CTR and BTR . 8:32 is Porsche Sport Ratio.


The 3.37 final should be 3.333 or 9:30, it's from US spec G50/05 transaxle fitted on 964 Porsche Carrera 2 RS America, RUF may have made R/P in this ratio too.
( last batch of CTR were conversion from 964 Carrera 4,an AWD 964 CTR with 6 speed )


Correction on fuel tank, MNP 911 car ( original CTR ) had 105 L fuel tank ( RUF made ) :) So, not 28 gallon, but 27.73 gallon.
The boost pressure is adjustable from 10.2 psi to 21.8 psi ( 0.7 Bar to 1.5 Bar ) I made several post on GTP Pcars Physics thread about 1.4 Bar max boost, this is reasonable max boost level when going for reliability, at 1.4 Bar, the CTR should produce more than 550PS. Stock boost level is 16 psi or 1.1 Bar and I doubt a real CTR owner would use full boost 1.5 Bar often :)