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View Full Version : to 4k or not to 4k, that is the question



tonypbeck
29-08-2015, 06:50
currently using xbox one so i doubt using a 4k tv will make a difference over a 1080p

moving to a top spec pc however, would that make a difference.

i've seen clips on youtube from a 4k tv and it looks amazing

Ripgroove
29-08-2015, 10:56
currently using xbox one so i doubt using a 4k tv will make a difference over a 1080p

moving to a top spec pc however, would that make a difference.

i've seen clips on youtube from a 4k tv and it looks amazing

TBH you'd need to spend a small fortune on a PC to be able to run 4K and maintain a decent frame rate with a full grid, especially if you want to race with weather.

Bobobski
29-08-2015, 11:02
Something to keep in mind about clips on YouTube is that we have no idea what post processing has been done on the video before uploading – not so much an issue when comparing resolutions, but I remember a thread recently where someone commented on how photo-real a particular clip looked on Youtube compared to his own in-game experience, could have been post processing.

But yes, going back to 4K: I've mulled over this myself, and after doing some research I've come to the understanding that there are pros and cons to going 4K. More horse power we already know about, but there are other things to consider, e.g. input lag, some TVs do a lot of internal processing and this can lead to significantly higher input lag compared to dedicated PC monitors.

Probably the most important thing to consider though is dot pitch, something that is often missed, but makes a big difference to the visual experience and what you will or will not need to do to compensate. Dot pitch is essentially the physical size of the pixels and bears a direct relationship to the physical size of the screen. Small screens will have a much finer dot pitch than larger ones and this will affect two things: firstly, how close you can sit the screen before you notice the pixels, and secondly, how large text and other graphical elements will look at standard Windows DPIs (assuming a PC is connected to the monitor/TV).

In practice it means that going small can be problematic with 4K, things will look tiny on a 24-28” monitor and DPI scaling is not really an option for gaming. Things will look great on a 55-65” 4K TV, by comparison, but then you have to think about input lag as mentioned above, plus the fact that large size 4K TVs don’t come cheap.

So, in conclusion: plenty to mull over, especially considering that it will be a pretty big financial investment going from Xbox to a suitable PC and 4K screen - my personal conclusion is, that if done right, going 4K can be a very significant plus, however, with affordable, and what looks like is going to be very usable, VR just around the corner, I think I'm going to wait and see how that pans out, especially considering the fact that VR may well render flat panel screens obsolete for gaming at some point.

Knightfall
29-08-2015, 12:51
TBH you'd need to spend a small fortune on a PC to be able to run 4K and maintain a decent frame rate with a full grid, especially if you want to race with weather.

This.

My computer has 1 GTX 980 driving 4 displays, one of which is a 4K. It absolutely takes more power to drive games at these higher resolutions. I do not have project cars for PC (only for PS4) but I have Witcher 3, a slightly higher resource draw than pcars. With only 1 video card, your game will run at 30 FPS tops if you are lucky. I did a quick search and found the following bench for pcars using an assortment of graphics cards. | http://wccftech.com/project-cars-4k-recommended-graphic-cards-4k-experience/

I moved to 4K because I am a trader by profession, and desktop real estate is a premium. My 4K display is 28 inches, and I have absolutely NO trouble at all seeing my icons and text on my desktop. I hear people say this is a drawback of 4K, but as my eyes seem to be better than 99% of people out there, I could not disagree more.

TL DR; 4K requires a lot of horsepower. Even after your small fortune, you may not get 60 FPS on some games.

EDIT: PC users report 60+ FPS in pcars.

-carbo-
29-08-2015, 13:14
I just bought a 980ti G1 card and run pcars on a 4K 28" monitor. It's amazing! In clear condition and just about everything on ultra, I get 60-100 FPS. In rain with a big grid it will dip into high 40s low 50s. I was previously running the game in 1440p with a 770-4GB card.

I should also say, when playing FPS games I really seem to notice if it's running under 70-80FPS, I don't have any issues running pcars even at the lower rates in rain.

This game looks great at 1080, 1440 or 4K but once you see it in 4K it's hard to go back. I would also add, once you start using a 4K display, it's hard to go back to 1080p. You can see every pixel.

amazed
29-08-2015, 13:43
I took my PS4 round to a family members house to show them PCARS and a wheel setup. They have a 4k TV which I'm not impressed with regarding upscaling of inputs, but they do have an odd setup where everything goes through XBone before going to TV (including Sky). But when I plugged PS4 in it looked noticeably better than my same size 1080p TV at home.

Everyone was really impressed with the visuals, do I know what I'm saving up to get next.... :D

imagamejunky
29-08-2015, 16:07
My opinions...
2 980s or a single titan x and you're good to go. You can run 60fps with ultra settings. Get a big higher end 4k tv and sit really close for a great immersion feel. My wheel is up against the screen bezel of my Samsung 65 and I can't see any pixels. Once you go 4k on a big screen you won't go back.
Junky

Harmoniser
30-08-2015, 14:43
My opinions...
2 980s or a single titan x and you're good to go. You can run 60fps with ultra settings. Get a big higher end 4k tv and sit really close for a great immersion feel. My wheel is up against the screen bezel of my Samsung 65 and I can't see any pixels. Once you go 4k on a big screen you won't go back.
Junky

That's interesting. I have a two titan x's , and had 2 980s. Running 4k @ 60fps is probably possible with one titan, with no AA at all. But you're going to need a bit of AA even at 4k. I run PCars at 4k and AA on high and there is still alising on some objects. One of the thing 4k can not totally solve is temporal alising so in some games you still have to switch on aa. But one card in pcars is not going to cut it when it comes to a change in weather. You will need two if you want to maintain 60fps. A vairable FPS, even by 3-5 fps can be vary jarring in pcars.

If I was to advise anybody on a budget, I would get one 980ti, run a game at 2.5k and use DSR. The results are quite good, without then need for a massive outlay. The thing is to run 4k @60 FPS on any of the latest games you will need to run them using SLI, that's if you don't want to compromise any of the settings.

Project cars is quite well optimised for single and dual cards, but that's not the case for all games. Anyone who wants to make the jump to 4k needs to weight up the cost versus the fact that a SLi set up can have problems. Or be happy to lock the frame rate at 30 fps with one card.

Im looking forward to Nvidia's next set of cards, so I can go back to a single gpu solution.

Oh 1080p big screen and using DSR to pump up to 4k is also pretty good. I was surprised by the results. One of my titans was out I action for a week so I used DSR on my tv rather than my 4k monitor. I couldn't quite get it to 4 k, just below that and witcher 3 and GTA looked immense.

Hope that's helps, oh if you have the money, two 980ti's will bulldoze any game down, but there will still be some compromise on the settings.

tonypbeck
04-09-2015, 07:09
Thats great information, thank you.

I'm not a tech wizard, so if I get a 4k tv I can set the output from the PC to display 2.5k and then use the GPU to use DSR and the results will be much better than 1080p and then when obtaining 4k is more affordable to display make the change?

Saw a 3 screen setup yesterday using 3 40" curved displays, i'm presuming to do the above with 3 screens would need 3 GPU.

MrPix
04-09-2015, 08:16
I run 4K @ 65" on a single Titan X. My whole system is liquid cooled and quite highly overclocked but I get above 60fps on a full grid in rain and much higher (72-111) in other conditions with pCARS, AC, rFactor2 on almost max settings. The 'input lag on my TV is between 17ms and 21ms.. the same as my previous 4K 40" Philips PC Monitor, but the TV was 5x the price. It looks fantastic, the clarity is incredible and there is no SDE like in current VR solutions.

The reason I get these frames is that my PC is well BALANCED, it has a great processor and chipset/motherboard and allows full use of the single graphics card. If I were to add a second graphics card, I have no doubt that the only other things I would need to upgrade would be the CPU (to a 40 lane capable PCIe 3.0 version) and the PSU to cope with the extra power draw.

The mistake most people make is to put to top end cards in to a CPU/Mobo combo that isn't balanced to the same level of spec.

4K when done right is fantastically rewarding. I'm on my 2nd CPU and mobo, my 3rd GPU and 3rd 4K Monitor/TV now to get to the place where my PC is well balanced and this kind of proves my point.. it's an expensive mistake if you get it wrong.

tonypbeck
04-09-2015, 09:33
I run 4K @ 65" on a single Titan X. My whole system is liquid cooled and quite highly overclocked but I get above 60fps on a full grid in rain and much higher (72-111) in other conditions with pCARS, AC, rFactor2 on almost max settings. The 'input lag on my TV is between 17ms and 21ms.. the same as my previous 4K 40" Philips PC Monitor, but the TV was 5x the price. It looks fantastic, the clarity is incredible and there is no SDE like in current VR solutions.

The reason I get these frames is that my PC is well BALANCED, it has a great processor and chipset/motherboard and allows full use of the single graphics card. If I were to add a second graphics card, I have no doubt that the only other things I would need to upgrade would be the CPU (to a 40 lane capable PCIe 3.0 version) and the PSU to cope with the extra power draw.

The mistake most people make is to put to top end cards in to a CPU/Mobo combo that isn't balanced to the same level of spec.

4K when done right is fantastically rewarding. I'm on my 2nd CPU and mobo, my 3rd GPU and 3rd 4K Monitor/TV now to get to the place where my PC is well balanced and this kind of proves my point.. it's an expensive mistake if you get it wrong.

Have just seen your setup, very impressive :)

I have a JCL rig being delivered this afternoon hopefully and i've chosen Chillblast as my PC supplier, with the Fusion Master Skylake option.

I'd really appreciate your input and thoughts as my PC knowledge is very old school and like you say, it's an expensive mistake to make and i'd like to get it right first time.

alrickitson
04-09-2015, 12:01
Just to help people out when building a new pc I run:
i7 2600K, 980 ti OC, 16gb ddr3 1600mhz, ssd, 55" Samsung curved 4k.
This setup gets me buttery smooth 4k @ 60fps with 20 cars in the dry. In wet with 20 cars it goes between 52-70 ish. All post processing effects on and graphic settings high.

Looks so crisp, it really is next gen stuff, the view into the distance is just superb. But saying all that I'd trade the 4k for proper rift support in a flash!

tonypbeck
04-09-2015, 12:13
so what will rift be running at when the consumer version is released?

alrickitson
04-09-2015, 12:34
The consumer rift due Q1 2016 has a total resolution of 2160 x 1200 crucially at 90fps. The dual screens are believed to be the best currently available for VR. I personally think that the GPU requirements for 4k will be v similar for the rift.

With the dk2 the sense of being in the cockpit is unreal, it also means everything is to scale 1:1. So a giant cinema screen looks like a giant cinema screen in the rift. At the moment the dk2 has a lower resolution which means seeing apex's and braking zones far ahead is difficult. The consumer rift is a 25% resolution improvement over dk2 so that will help a lot but probably not as much as we all hope but it's still very early days of VR. The important thing for me is that already dk2 is better than a 4k screen so the consumer rift will be icing on the cake. Rift 2 and 3, well, it's going to be amazing!

Cuba
04-09-2015, 13:13
My opinions...
2 980s or a single titan x and you're good to go. You can run 60fps with ultra settings. Get a big higher end 4k tv and sit really close for a great immersion feel. My wheel is up against the screen bezel of my Samsung 65 and I can't see any pixels. Once you go 4k on a big screen you won't go back.
Junky
I agree! I'm using a Samsung 65" 4K and its amazing! I have my rig right up to the TV. With a headset and such immersion, I get lost in the game (My wife unexpectedly tapped me on the shoulder while I was playing the other night and it scared the heck out of me, I had no idea she even entered the room LOL). My frame rates never go below 60 FPS (20 car grid) with most settings at Ultra or High; if I set weather to rain the frames drop to high 50 FPS, still very good. I turn grass detail to low and reduce other graphics settings that don't enhance the racing picture. I had my doubts about running with a 4K TV, but I love it...so do my friends who run high-end PC's with monitors. They can't get over the picture quality.

MrPix
04-09-2015, 13:21
I agree! I'm using a Samsung 65" 4K and its amazing! I have my rig right up to the TV. With a headset and such immersion, I get lost in the game (My wife unexpectedly tapped me on the shoulder while I was playing the other night and it scared the heck out of me, I had no idea she even entered the room LOL). My frame rates never go below 60 FPS with most settings at Ultra or High. I turn grass detail to low and reduce other graphics settings that don't enhance the racing picture. I had my doubts about running with a 4K TV, but I love it...so do my friends who run high-end PC's with monitors. They can't get over the picture quality.

^^ all that and more!

This is what it looks like at 65" 4K with the wheel up next to the screen.... If the OP was wondering

217264

Ignore the Gear stick, the A45 is flappy paddle only.

Cuba
04-09-2015, 13:25
^^ all that and more!

This is what it looks like at 65" 4K with the wheel up next to the screen.... If the OP was wonder

Wow! I thought my rig was up close...you ARE in the cockpit! Well done sir!...well done!

Fanatest
04-09-2015, 19:11
^^ all that and more!

This is what it looks like at 65" 4K with the wheel up next to the screen.... If the OP was wondering

217264

Ignore the Gear stick, the A45 is flappy paddle only.

That looks great, perfectly setup and very Immersive :)

Im having a 4K issue myself at the moment,p. We're trying to buy a new TV, 99% of which are 4k. However, for the living room / consoles this isn't great, as most if those TVs have huge upscale lag.

Trying to find a 4K with low lag, low motion blur... But with good colour, viewing angles etc is not an easy task!

Beatminister
05-09-2015, 00:15
A 4k screen always looks better, even if you run it on 1080p. And if its big, you may want to use it for Bluray and such, also.
I have a Samsung 55" UHD, thats great, no lag or blur. But I run PCars only in 1080p, on PS4 and PC. The PC can make a 4k resolution, but when I set PCars to do that, it wouldn't start anymore. May be its better now after 3.0, didnt try yet.
But I don't regret buying the 4k TV. Its amazing how much fits on a 4k desktop - even if the writing is a bit small then.

Ramjet
21-12-2015, 11:46
Just want to add that I have just got into 4K gaming on a Philips BDM4065 40 inch monitor and it took a bit of work to get the color right but now it is absolutely incredible ! I sold my Rift Dk2 back in October to wait for CV1 and then just could not go back to racing on my Asus 27inch 120hz even though it was a great monitor.

I was unsure about the jump to a 40 inch monitor but absolutely glad I did as it had much more impression than I thought for racing and gaming in general. My cpu is old but overclocked and paired with the 980ti I get solid 60fps with most settings on High and MSAA on. It looks fantastic and with the monitor hard up behind my wheel it gives a great sense of immersion.

What I also like about this monitor is that I can run it at 3840 x 1620 in the 21:9 widescreen aspect ratio that seems popular right now. Though after trying 21:9 I prefer the 16:9 3840x2160 resolution as you see so much more onscreen vertically and horizontally compared to the 34inch curved widescreens. GTA V and few other newer games like Witcher 3 and MGS5 The Phantom Pain also looks absolutely incredible at 4K resolution and like others have said, I also could never go back to a smaller screen at lower resolution after experiencing this, it has totally changed my gaming. I will still buy a Rift CV1 when they finally release.