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View Full Version : Are sim racers dieing?



C6ckneyGeezer
06-09-2015, 19:38
I remember the days of Live For Speed, loads of people always online and great races. I could always jump on and straight away get into a good server and have a fun race.

It seems with project cars and more current race sims have a much smaller fan base?

I have project cars on PC and PS4, it seems only a few thousand people online and most of the races are GT3. Since the leaderboard wipe the leaderboards seem empty.

I dunno if it's me, I seem to load up Project Cars, get bored and frustrated after an hour then turn it off.

Ideas, comments welcome.

Rob Prange
06-09-2015, 19:48
There's a lot more choices for sim racers nowadays, compared to the heyday of LFS.

A rather small community has the choice between at least 6-7 titles these days so it's no surprise to see people being spread a bit thin.

Mahjik
06-09-2015, 19:58
I would say that most "dedicated sim racers" solely race in leagues. You typically find the more causal racers in public servers. I don't think LFS is that good of a comparison, mainly because that was a fairly small community compared to what we have today. I will say, I did play LFS and I don't recall seeing 2000 drivers online all at the same time, ever... With that, given the smaller community meant that those drivers were typically more dedicated racers rather than casual racers.

Slowsley
06-09-2015, 20:03
I think a lot of players are either playing solo offline or are in leagues. I race for hours most days, but I haven't been online even once as I can tailor my experience much better offline.

Sasquatch
06-09-2015, 20:32
LFS also was cheap, and had a decent free demo. Even in those S1 days, it was easy to get large race going without organizing much. Oh, those LFS days were awesome.

I mean, even with the PS4 version of PCARS, I rarely go to the online section beyond community events. Why? Because I can't deal with the stress of others who simply don't want to race but do what they can to win. I simply haven't found it fun at all, so I stay offline. AI puts a better race than the public human population.

I know people say, do leagues, blah blah blah. When I get on the game, I usually want to get into something quick.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-09-2015, 21:46
Dying? Sim racers are more alive than they've been for years! We had to play the same old games, most of them running on the same engine from 2005, for years with no real reports of anything new on the horizon other than on the modding front, and now we have rF2, RRRE, AC and best of all Project CARS around, stepping up the game massively compared to the previous generation of racing sims, and new stuff on the horizon as well. =)

Bettchen
06-09-2015, 21:50
Unless they are not driving in real life like they are driving in the sim, they should survive.

Knightfall
06-09-2015, 22:08
I consider myself a sim racer as I don't really even play any type of arcade racing game at all.. I do most of my racing offline because there is so much to do that keeps me interested. That said, when I do play online, I am normally with a group of 3 of my friends. I fear opening my private games at the risk of ramming trolls.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more of the private "regular" sessions be opened up to the public when ramming trolls are under control. Just my 2 cents.

David Wright
06-09-2015, 22:27
Most LFS players ran the free demo. The AI was poor so LFS fans were primarily on-line racers.

Today on the PC, iRacing dominates on-line racing, and its members have all invested large sums in cars and tracks and probably a 12 month membership. It will take a lot to get them to move to a different sim.

When you say " it seems only a few thousand people online" do you mean at one time? If so this is a large number by PC racing sim standards. The most I saw for GTR2 was around 500. rFactor peaked at around 1000 but I suspect this was because you could use the warez version on-line while for GTR2 you needed an onlime serial.

Gravit8
06-09-2015, 22:52
I remember the days of Live For Speed, loads of people always online and great races. I could always jump on and straight away get into a good server and have a fun race.

It seems with project cars and more current race sims have a much smaller fan base?

I have project cars on PC and PS4, it seems only a few thousand people online and most of the races are GT3. Since the leaderboard wipe the leaderboards seem empty.

I dunno if it's me, I seem to load up Project Cars, get bored and frustrated after an hour then turn it off.

Ideas, comments welcome.

No. But competition is. I think raising young kids on video games means they all expect to win, all the time. Can't win, don't play. Destroy someone else's fun.
Kids and or adults are playing sims offline I think. The world car culture is always gonna be a draw for solo play.
But I would agree competition is dying online. It's because no one can deal with not being the winner. An online racing lobby does a lot better job of telling you if your good at a game then say. Call of duty, where you can measure your success by a lot of different metrics.
Online racing success means being on podiums. If you can't. Most selfish natured people with short attention spans quit. (That's most young kids and young adults IMO)then they try another virtual avenue for success.
People are lazy when it comes to virtual entertainment. And if you ain't winning at one virtual enterprise, there's another game to try winning at on the store shelf. They will move on til they find something easy enough to "WIN" at that satisfies their need to dominate.

Racing games are the long play and require practice, prolonged concentration. And no mistakes. That's a little much for the average gamers attention span and limited focus skills. It just doesn't happen fast enough for them.

You need to be wired for patience, but the digital age has breed a lot of gratification now people.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
06-09-2015, 23:00
Today on the PC, iRacing dominates on-line racingIn some ways, but one has to keep a certain perspective: I racing has about 55 000 subscribers, or thereabouts, according to their own announcements. That's about a fifth of pCARS players on PC (according to Steamspy), and PC is the lowest selling platform. AC has been out for a couple of years and has a bit more PC owners than pCARS currently. RaceRoom Racing Experience seems to have around 2 million owners, and over 600 000 players (SteamSpy). And there's also rFactor 2, though I have no idea if anyone really plays it anymore.

Point being, that while iRacing players are probably the most active online players in any of the games, since that is almost literally all they offer and as a result tend to pull that sort of crowd, in the total scheme of sim racing and even online sim racing, they're pretty much peanuts where numbers are concerned.

hkraft300
07-09-2015, 01:05
Reckon the sim racing community will grow in future, but that will be in our hands. Can't just blame "kids these days" for their behaviour- they are a product of the foundation laid by their parents. There was a thread a few weeks ago of a gentleman introducing sim racing via pcars to his apprentice, and others who are getting their sons involved.
It's up to us, really, to show the next generation what sim racing is about, that it's not just instant-gratification gaming but that it requires practice, patience, study and analysis to get good and all the more satisfying.
Show the kids what motorsports is about - which, despite what others might think, most definitely includes sim-racing.

Ps I heard Jackie Ickx (yes, The Jackie Ickx) is a fan of pCars on PS4. Sim racers are live and kicking I'd say ;)

Gravit8
07-09-2015, 23:27
Reckon the sim racing community will grow in future, but that will be in our hands. Can't just blame "kids these days" for their behaviour- they are a product of the foundation laid by their parents. There was a thread a few weeks ago of a gentleman introducing sim racing via pcars to his apprentice, and others who are getting their sons involved.
It's up to us, really, to show the next generation what sim racing is about, that it's not just instant-gratification gaming but that it requires practice, patience, study and analysis to get good and all the more satisfying.
Show the kids what motorsports is about - which, despite what others might think, most definitely includes sim-racing.

Ps I heard Jackie Ickx (yes, The Jackie Ickx) is a fan of pCars on PS4. Sim racers are live and kicking I'd say ;)

In the spirit of above post. Ill race my son against any of yours any day. ;)

Where's that father/son league at?

stangnutlx
08-09-2015, 01:08
sim racer haven't been dying the lack of quality games has diminished. the era of lets make it flashy and arcadish has ruined it more sim seeking style racers. EA has been building this type of game for 15 years. Grid, Shift. etc. greedy developers who think lets pump out a game that we know is shit but we'll fix it with patches and patches and patches.

Iracing is a great example of that. lets charge an expensive monthly fee and charge for every car and track we sell. To be honest isn't much different graphically than NR2003 is.

julesdennis
08-09-2015, 07:19
sim racer haven't been dying the lack of quality games has diminished. the era of lets make it flashy and arcadish has ruined it more sim seeking style racers. EA has been building this type of game for 15 years. Grid, Shift. etc. greedy developers who think lets pump out a game that we know is shit but we'll fix it with patches and patches and patches.

Iracing is a great example of that. lets charge an expensive monthly fee and charge for every car and track we sell. To be honest isn't much different graphically than NR2003 is.

Are you talking in general?
But this is spot on mate "the lack of quality games has diminished."

stangnutlx
08-09-2015, 19:13
speaking in general

DECATUR PLAYA
08-09-2015, 19:32
My buddy told me that there were 23 rooms up on xbox Sunday. My room has been off the chain since the 3.0 patch. I regularly race with 13 guys sometimes after a race 7 may quit and before the next race starts we got a full 13 man room again. I have my room capped at 13. I'm new to sim racing but just looks to me like we just needed a proper sim. Like Kraft said up top here in this new world of everything easy a game like this that goes against the old arcade concepts of racing it's going to take time to build itself especially with its initial release issues. This games greatest long term assets are its short term liabilities. Its greatest gifts is its biggest curse. As gamers knowledge of the game grows the game grows. All I know is me and my buddies can't get enough.

Knightfall
08-09-2015, 20:08
My buddy told me that there were 23 rooms up on xbox Sunday. My room has been off the chain since the 3.0 patch. I regularly race with 13 guys sometimes after a race 7 may quit and before the next race starts we got a full 13 man room again. I have my room capped at 13. I'm new to sim racing but just looks to me like we just needed a proper sim. Like Kraft said up top here in this new world of everything easy a game like this that goes against the old arcade concepts of racing it's going to take time to build itself especially with its initial release issues. This games greatest long term assets are its short term liabilities. Its greatest gifts is its biggest curse. As gamers knowledge of the game grows the game grows. All I know is me and my buddies can't get enough.

Good to hear, because I feel the same way. I got a group of 4 buddies including myself who are absolutely loving the online racing. The realism of the game is not only what sets it apart from the arcade racers, but also what keeps bringing us back.

We also can't get enough...

bobbylion
08-09-2015, 20:32
Considering BBC spent some time with Max Verstapen which aired before Spa, in which among talk of his karting days it showed him playing on a racing game where he said he plays up to 3 hours a day , I'd say it's in rude health. Add to that places are springing up doing sim racing for pros and for corporate \ stag events etc there is every chance rich dads will not only get their kids into karting but also invest in home sim set ups.
My brothers both race and so we mix in racing circles and what used to be a bit of a joke about real racing and a "game" is now blurring, racers are getting training on pro sims... Is it dying? Not a chance.

LogRoad
08-09-2015, 21:31
Rich dads getting their kids into karting and sim rigs is great, but they must be a niche in a very niche market. Still need to get the numbers up, and that means the rich and everybody else too.

Sasquatch
08-09-2015, 22:48
sim racer haven't been dying the lack of quality games has diminished.

But this is spot on mate "the lack of quality games has diminished."

Step back for a bit. I don't think it has - in some cases.

Have you considered the utter complexity that has without a doubt skyrocketed when "games were quality?"

On a console. I mean, i'll say Gran Turismo 3 is seemingly considered the absolute most enjoyable, I also dare to say "the best" game in the franchise. But GT3 also has by-far less content than PS1 title GT2 and the late PS2 title GT4 for example?

Stangnut, while I fully agree with what you mean by greed companies. EA + Activision mainly, Codemasters has been inching that way for sometime. But complexity, is seemingly an excuse for over manning, meeting demands of the public, annual rehash release, multiplatform development, forcing DLC plan because time cannot be met, day 1 patchs, broken launches, luring with pre-ordering, etc. It is a product in the end, and if it doesn't sell there's no demand. But all this also strings into stores which are owned by people.

The market is kind of crappy. But it's exactly by data, what we demand shamefully. Or I just have no idea what i'm babbling aboot.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
08-09-2015, 23:16
"... the lack of quality games has diminished." <-- So there isn't a lack of quality games anymore, or the lack is smaller? A very roundabout way of saying "there are more quality games around"? I agree with that, there was a long stint, many many years long, where there were almost no good new sims, and we were forced to play really old games. Now we have plenty of new sims to pick and choose from. =)

stangnutlx
09-09-2015, 02:09
Most of the games now that come out are unfinished and lack a real attention to detail. make the core game work correctly I.E physics, sounds, FFB, controls, etc then make the game flashy.

I'm going to pick on Project cars for a bit

the steering on the GT3 cars is different from one car to the next and different every time you fire the game up. Tonight I was racing the RUF and the steering was just the way I like it. A little effort needed to turn the wheel and car. The game crashes and I need to restart the ruf steering is all over the place. Very very sensitive to the point I cant drive the car. Switch to the BMW Z4 nd the steering is heavy and comfortable. Change to the Audi and steering is the same as the RUF. inconsistent issues like that are frustrating and annoying when you're trying to enjoy this game.

Shouldn't need to recalibrate my wheel every time I start the game. G25

Don't take this the wrong way I do enjoy playing this game.

Cheesenium
09-09-2015, 03:06
Lack of quality games? I actually find that phrase hard to believe as I am constantly finding myself sitting on my PC wondering what to play each night. At least on PC, the days of having only a handful of quality games are pretty much long gone. Now, there are quite a good number of quality games that offer different types of motorsports and road cars with enough depth in simulation with a decent variety of content in each one.

RTS is the genre that having the issue of lack of quality games with small number of mostly lackluster releases each year for more than a decade. TBS used to be almost dead as a dodo, however, they bounced back from the dead to the point TBS are almost everywhere these days, partly due the explosive growth of mobile games where TBS is perfect for that platform. Genre popularity is pretty much a cyclic trend which I hope racing games will continue to thrive.

Racing/driving games on PC are thriving these days. Despite all of them has their own list of issues, they are great fun to play. If the genre is dying, then, why are there more and more developers investing in the genre? There are a lot more developers these days compared to 5 years or so back.

Jussi Viljami Karjalainen
09-09-2015, 10:14
Most of the games now that come out are unfinished and lack a real attention to detail. make the core game work correctly I.E physics, sounds, FFB, controls, etc then make the game flashy.

I'm going to pick on Project cars for a bit

the steering on the GT3 cars is different from one car to the next and different every time you fire the game up. Tonight I was racing the RUF and the steering was just the way I like it. A little effort needed to turn the wheel and car. The game crashes and I need to restart the ruf steering is all over the place. Very very sensitive to the point I cant drive the car. Switch to the BMW Z4 nd the steering is heavy and comfortable. Change to the Audi and steering is the same as the RUF. inconsistent issues like that are frustrating and annoying when you're trying to enjoy this game.

Shouldn't need to recalibrate my wheel every time I start the game. G25

Don't take this the wrong way I do enjoy playing this game.Huh, really? I have literally never ever had this happen on any car for me, so it can't be an all encompassing thing. I haven't recalibrated my wheel in the game since spring, and the feel has been consistent. =/

AlanK
09-09-2015, 14:14
Most of the games now that come out are unfinished and lack a real attention to detail. make the core game work correctly I.E physics, sounds, FFB, controls, etc then make the game flashy.

I'm going to pick on Project cars for a bit

the steering on the GT3 cars is different from one car to the next and different every time you fire the game up. Tonight I was racing the RUF and the steering was just the way I like it. A little effort needed to turn the wheel and car. The game crashes and I need to restart the ruf steering is all over the place. Very very sensitive to the point I cant drive the car. Switch to the BMW Z4 nd the steering is heavy and comfortable. Change to the Audi and steering is the same as the RUF. inconsistent issues like that are frustrating and annoying when you're trying to enjoy this game.

Shouldn't need to recalibrate my wheel every time I start the game. G25

Don't take this the wrong way I do enjoy playing this game.

Yup, I have to re-calibrate my G27 wheel every time too. I'd also agree that manufacturers should finish a retail game before they launch it - unless it's free I suppose ... in which case you get what you pay for!

hkraft300
09-09-2015, 14:34
Steering suddenly being sensitive after a game crash... Hmmm
Could it be that when the game crashed the Ruf setup was lost somehow so upon reload the Ruf became difficult? Did you go back to same track + conditions?
Reckon my PS4 has OS bugs that make the game crash occasionally.

AB_Attack
09-09-2015, 14:42
I don't think the number of simracers have gone down, can't see a reason why it would have, but rather that players are distributed between games and platforms. But what is "a lot of players" anyway? Sometimes people say Company of Heroes 2 is dying. It has been said for a long time. It had around 5000-6000 players online steadily (now it's more due to new expansion). And the people saying that compared with the peak popularity of that game. But compared with the most played games online on Steam, CoH was top 50 with that number as I remember it. So, is a top 50 game in the world a "dying" game? I think not. Are a few thousands online in PCars bad? Not really. More diverse classes and more players is always welcome though (so long they don't race others during quali and divebomb and wreck and miss braking points due to inexerience of slip stream, fuel load and brake temps and stuff...which they do...*sigh* ah well).