PDA

View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33

spacepadrille
08-03-2016, 22:19
I love your post tennenbaum ! When the scientific method make possible at the end to prefer some noise instead of the "pure" approach, knowing why. Humans are not completely rational animals, and they are even better when their irrationality comes from a solid rational method ;-) Artists and scientists are much close than we usually think ;-)

morpwr
08-03-2016, 22:28
At this point I'm done tweaking and am really happy with my settings. Guys one thing I can tell you and I'm just as guilty don't get tunnel vision when tweaking. Ive been lucky enough to have a few spacepadrille especially to bounce ideas off and try things. We didn't always agree but sometimes that's whats needed to make progress. FFb master was a perfect example of that. We talked about it and I was too low and he was too high. Both got better results because of it. I was turning low 1.08s and 1.07s last night pretty consistently and dropped 20 degrees off my normal tire temps. So just need to fix what I know I'm doing wrong at this point to get consistant 1.07s. The steering sensitivity really seems to help most of us and from what ive seen most are between 80-90. For some reason 100 is just too sensitive and you wind up steering too much. It seems weird to me that the extra 10 makes as big of a difference as it does but I tried it multiple times and was always faster and more consistent at 90. Maybe someone with really good slow hands could make 100 work. Now its time to get some practice in and catch up to you guys.:D

tennenbaum
08-03-2016, 22:47
I love your post tennenbaum ! When the scientific method make possible at the end to prefer some noise instead of the "pure" approach, knowing why. Humans are not completely rational animals, and they are even better when their irrationality comes from a solid rational method ;-) Artists and scientists are much close than we usually think ;-)

glad, you fully see the intention of my experimental setting!

tennenbaum
08-03-2016, 23:03
At this point I'm done tweaking and am really happy with my settings. Guys one thing I can tell you and I'm just as guilty don't get tunnel vision when tweaking. Ive been lucky enough to have a few spacepadrille especially to bounce ideas off and try things. We didn't always agree but sometimes that's whats needed to make progress. FFb master was a perfect example of that. We talked about it and I was too low and he was too high. Both got better results because of it. I was turning low 1.08s and 1.07s last night pretty consistently and dropped 20 degrees off my normal tire temps. So just need to fix what I know I'm doing wrong at this point to get consistant 1.07s. The steering sensitivity really seems to help most of us and from what ive seen most are between 80-90. For some reason 100 is just too sensitive and you wind up steering too much. It seems weird to me that the extra 10 makes as big of a difference as it does but I tried it multiple times and was always faster and more consistent at 90. Maybe someone with really good slow hands could make 100 work. Now its time to get some practice in and catch up to you guys.:D

it's fascinating to see how knowledge! (instead of false or right or better or worse opinions) grows and builds up when poeple get into an openminded exchange of thoughts, findings and ideas. i mentionend that before, that's a great quality of this thread. ...Grimey had/has great intuition (and attitude!) starting/helming the thread calling it "Let's talk..."

Haiden
08-03-2016, 23:35
Got a new mount for my tablet, and thought I'd share the link, because if you have rig, it's super easy to install, and very sturdy. I've been holding off on one of those Ignition Control button boxes, because I was looking for something a little cheaper than a RAM mount. This is perfect, way sturdier than I thought it would be. I'm going to order another one and pull the trigger on the button box. :)

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43350-Tablet-mount&p=1249212&viewfull=1#post1249212

poirqc
08-03-2016, 23:54
Slow down guys! I can't keep up! :D

morpwr
09-03-2016, 00:44
Got a new mount for my tablet, and thought I'd share the link, because if you have rig, it's super easy to install, and very sturdy. I've been holding off on one of those Ignition Control button boxes, because I was looking for something a little cheaper than a RAM mount. This is perfect, way sturdier than I thought it would be. I'm going to order another one and pull the trigger on the button box. :)

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43350-Tablet-mount&p=1249212&viewfull=1#post1249212

I had to get a ram mount for the ignition controls button box that hurt. They are nice but awful expensive for what they are.

morpwr
09-03-2016, 01:07
it's fascinating to see how knowledge! (instead of false or right or better or worse opinions) grows and builds up when poeple get into an openminded exchange of thoughts, findings and ideas. i mentionend that before, that's a great quality of this thread. ...Grimey had/has great intuition (and attitude!) starting/helming the thread calling it "Let's talk..."

I agree totally. Even those that don't use any of our settings I'm sure have benefited greatly if they have followed this forum at all. I know I have. It amazes me how far it has come from the first time I put the game in and went wtf? Its a shame those that gave up early didn't get to see how good this could be. I cant think of one other game that I have put this much effort into which says a lot about it and Im sure just about everybody in this forum would say the same also. Im sure most of us will keep tweaking maybe not as much now that most of us have settled on them but admit it guys you always want to know if theres more.

BigDad
09-03-2016, 01:27
https://youtu.be/dPUiPnm-GdE
Running around Sakitto in a Aston GTE.
Messy but check 25 seconds. Controlling the car is easy with good FFB.

Tuned car no assists. Best lap so far 143.8
Beating AI most times at 100% but sometimes p1 pulls out a blinding 140.xxx lol.

poirqc
09-03-2016, 02:23
I thought a draw something could show how input sensitivity works, since it's a hot topic.

229423

Keep in mind that i don't actually know precisely how numbers works. It's more of a general idea of how the sensitivity system works.

Cheers!

Haiden
09-03-2016, 03:12
I had to get a ram mount for the ignition controls button box that hurt. They are nice but awful expensive for what they are.

I know! I'm pretty sure this one will work. The arm is very strong, and if the brackets can't hold the box because of weight, then I can always drill through the plastic plate/back and secure it to the box like a RAM mount. Well, at least in theory. :)

PureMalt77
09-03-2016, 08:10
I thought a draw something could show how input sensitivity works, since it's a hot topic.

229423

Keep in mind that i don't actually know precisely how numbers works. It's more of a general idea of how the sensitivity system works.

Cheers!

Does it means that anything not 50 will give something non-linear, but what exactly?
1. Force (wheel gets lighter/heavier depending on angular position?)
2. Steering is non-linear? (eg. above 50 is sharper near center?)
3. A time-based ratio (like a bleed), where it also affects response time - delay!

I had the impression that sensitivity (steering and pedals) sort of affect response time. :confused: I cannot measure much on steering, but on pedals it feels as the input is sent right away, full power into the system, whilst with lower sensitivity, the input is gradually sent... We are talking split seconds here, but when you are at 100, you need "fine hands" and "fine feet" if you know what I mean. I know, I'm terrible trying to explain things... :concern:

tennenbaum
09-03-2016, 10:42
I thought a draw something could show how input sensitivity works, since it's a hot topic.

229423

Keep in mind that i don't actually know precisely how numbers works. It's more of a general idea of how the sensitivity system works.

Cheers!


PureMalt:
Does it means that anything not 50 will give something non-linear, but what exactly?
1. Force (wheel gets lighter/heavier depending on angular position?)
2. Steering is non-linear? (eg. above 50 is sharper near center?)
3. A time-based ratio (like a bleed), where it also affects response time - delay!

I had the impression that sensitivity (steering and pedals) sort of affect response time. I cannot measure much on steering, but on pedals it feels as the input is sent right away, full power into the system, whilst with lower sensitivity, the input is gradually sent... We are talking split seconds here, but when you are at 100, you need "fine hands" and "fine feet" if you know what I mean. I know, I'm terrible trying to explain things...

it's tricky. Your graph is correct, at the same time i do not know how that's practically done. With the gamepad it simply scales degree of deflection of steering-stick non-linear, which is a no-brainer because gamepad stick to wheel on screen do not correlate 1:1 anyway. But how does it work with physical wheel to on-screen wheel/DOR?. How to turn an axis non-linearly? It's not a swing bar! ;)

poirqc
09-03-2016, 11:13
Does it means that anything not 50 will give something non-linear, but what exactly?
1. Force (wheel gets lighter/heavier depending on angular position?)
2. Steering is non-linear? (eg. above 50 is sharper near center?)
3. A time-based ratio (like a bleed), where it also affects response time - delay!

I had the impression that sensitivity (steering and pedals) sort of affect response time. :confused: I cannot measure much on steering, but on pedals it feels as the input is sent right away, full power into the system, whilst with lower sensitivity, the input is gradually sent... We are talking split seconds here, but when you are at 100, you need "fine hands" and "fine feet" if you know what I mean. I know, I'm terrible trying to explain things... :concern:

You can explain well, don't worry :D

There's one mistake i did in my graph. The sensitivity doesn't affect the FFB directly. It's a byproduct of what's happening. I'll update it when i have time, must go to work now.

With lower steering sensitivity, you're gain precision around TDC. The wheel input gets faster as you get close to steering lock. For older wheels that have a smaller DoR, you get closer to 1:1 input around TDC, so added precision. As you get closer to steering lock, the wheel input gets twitchy, but it's a nice tradeoff since we rarely send the wheel there.

With higher sensitivity, the wheel respond faster around TDC to progressively slower near steering lock. It may be a way, for wheel with a high DoR, to simulate a Variable-ratio steering. A quick google searc explain it the other way, but i think it apply here.

Haiden
09-03-2016, 11:30
With higher sensitivity, the wheel respond faster around TDC to progressively slower near steering lock. It may be a way, for wheel with a high DoR, to simulate a Variable-ratio steering.

Pretty sure this is why I've found it a bit twitchy on modern open wheelers, and cars that I use my F1 style rim. I had to lower Sensitivity to 75, and raise the steering ratio a click on the FA to 11:4:1. Not sure if any other cars will require ratio increases, yet. The FA was only one I got to test last night. Still, the increased sensitivity has been an overall improvement for me. :)

Haiden
09-03-2016, 11:42
SMS Really Needs to explain whats going on with the GM FFB... Code de Azure with the KTM I can Spot at the wheel Clipping at the down Hill Horse shoe turn... Wheel gets a Knot Slams comletly to the Left then Frees.up after a few secs. SMH!!!

Reducing the on the wheel FFB is the only way to get Rid of it...Im Starting to Really Consider if The On the wheel FFB is really over riding the GM FFB.... But i must say it appears to be the Case....Im getting Tired of Guessing FFB because SMS aint Talking. SMH

Did you figure this out? I do think one of your in-car scales is too high. Under heavy braking, that car can pull really hard (terrible weight transfer). Coming down that hill is definitely one of the spots where it happens. What you described sounds like that pull I feel when I brake too hard or late in that spot--same pull, just in overdrive. Even when you balance the offending scale, you'll still feel that pull if you slam on the brakes coming down. You've got to ease into them, bleed off a little speed, and let the car's weight settle forward before you press them hard. The default suspension is just too soft for heavy braking, especially heavy downhill braking.

poirqc
09-03-2016, 15:38
Downhill breaking, in a bend, can stress the anti-clipping tools. I remember that the old Ford GT can do that on the fast bends of Doninigton National.

lancashirelad
09-03-2016, 18:31
"Have you guys by any chance enabled/changed the options that shows underneath the RPM/Gear display at Options > Controls ? The ones saying "Advanced & Controller Input Mode", they should be left untouched if you're using a wheel".

This just posted by a sms q&a. A few months late but at least it's a start on some instructions. :)

Ekay.jay
09-03-2016, 18:56
I believe some people are using it, and some are not. I myself turn advanced Off.

Krus Control
09-03-2016, 19:35
I have advanced on just so I can switch Soft Steering Dampening off. I honestly don't know what it does. Never felt a difference. I think that the less signal processing you can get away with, the better. But if the devs say to have it on (which is default) it might be somehow better that way. I'm Going to check it out when I get home.

poirqc
09-03-2016, 19:56
I have advanced on just so I can switch Soft Steering Dampening off. I honestly don't know what it does. Never felt a difference. I think that the less signal processing you can get away with, the better. But if the devs say to have it on (which is default) it might be somehow better that way. I'm Going to check it out when I get home.

You may have a point. I not trowing rocks, but it wouldn't be the first time the UI behave!

Haiden
09-03-2016, 20:32
"Have you guys by any chance enabled/changed the options that shows underneath the RPM/Gear display at Options > Controls ? The ones saying "Advanced & Controller Input Mode", they should be left untouched if you're using a wheel".

This just posted by a sms q&a. A few months late but at least it's a start on some instructions. :)

I've never touched it, so it's still on default. I remember some guys were changing the controller mode, because they said it felt different, and they liked it. SMS had said that, although it appears in the control options, it didn't have any effect if you were using a wheel. That's pretty much the extent of the attention I've ever paid that setting. :)

Bunga412
09-03-2016, 20:54
"Have you guys by any chance enabled/changed the options that shows underneath the RPM/Gear display at Options > Controls ? The ones saying "Advanced & Controller Input Mode", they should be left untouched if you're using a wheel".

This just posted by a sms q&a. A few months late but at least it's a start on some instructions. :)

I found a few months ago that if turned advance settings off, it felt like they would then turn on in the background. This would make my t300 feel a bit dull and lifeless. So I have had advanced settings on with everything turned off. I don't know it could have been a bit of a placebo at the time.

GrimeyDog
09-03-2016, 21:07
Did you figure this out? I do think one of your in-car scales is too high. Under heavy braking, that car can pull really hard (terrible weight transfer). Coming down that hill is definitely one of the spots where it happens. What you described sounds like that pull I feel when I brake too hard or late in that spot--same pull, just in overdrive. Even when you balance the offending scale, you'll still feel that pull if you slam on the brakes coming down. You've got to ease into them, bleed off a little speed, and let the car's weight settle forward before you press them hard. The default suspension is just too soft for heavy braking, especially heavy downhill braking.


Its at the wheel clipping Im 99% sure of it....with on Wheel FFB at 75 i tried turning down Fz,Mz & Sop lat to 50% and when i turn the wheel beyond a certain point it slam locks full to the direction I'm Turning--->Left in this case.

I turned the on the Wheel FFB to 65 and it goes away... this is what leads me to wonder and believe that the on the wheel FFB maybe over riding the GM FFB.


Edit: Seems that I'm wrong its Not at the wheel clipping its some thing with the arm angle or something with the KTX Bow... I dunno cant figure it out its the only car so far that just slams full lock when you have to turn it really hard to make that down hill horse shoe turn on Azure circuit... I can make that turn in the Porsche and fly:yes::yes::yes: I'm for sure supposed to make it in the KTX Bow...the arm angle is 0.00 ??? very strange i push it to both ends and still when turning beyond a certain point it slams full lock in the direction of turn:confused:

I'm done trying to figure it out:mad:

BigDad
09-03-2016, 21:40
"Have you guys by any chance enabled/changed the options that shows underneath the RPM/Gear display at Options > Controls ? The ones saying "Advanced & Controller Input Mode", they should be left untouched if you're using a wheel".

This just posted by a sms q&a. A few months late but at least it's a start on some instructions. :)
This reply by Bruno was in reply to a post I made about steering ratios not changing until you exit and restart.
So something in these settings is messing with this tuning tool up.

GrimeyDog
09-03-2016, 23:38
"Have you guys by any chance enabled/changed the options that shows underneath the RPM/Gear display at Options > Controls ? The ones saying "Advanced & Controller Input Mode", they should be left untouched if you're using a wheel".

This just posted by a sms q&a. A few months late but at least it's a start on some instructions. :)

The advanced settings tab makes a difference... By default that setting seems to have its own soft clipping settings built in.

On makes the wheel center more lively...can give good road feel but center of wheel can feel twitchy.

Off center of the wheel feels calmer... still good road feel depending on your global settings but calmer wheel center.

morpwr
10-03-2016, 01:10
I've never touched it, so it's still on default. I remember some guys were changing the controller mode, because they said it felt different, and they liked it. SMS had said that, although it appears in the control options, it didn't have any effect if you were using a wheel. That's pretty much the extent of the attention I've ever paid that setting. :)

Same here tried it and put it back to default.

lancashirelad
10-03-2016, 08:36
Same here tried it and put it back to default.

I'm using your settings morpwr with my T300RS
yours are best I've tried.
I do have a problem with the classic lotus cars though, they feel horrible and floaty
Any idea's?

morpwr
10-03-2016, 11:23
I'm using your settings morpwr with my T300RS
yours are best I've tried.
I do have a problem with the classic lotus cars though, they feel horrible and floaty
Any idea's?

I haven't used those lately but ill give them a try tonight. Which one are you using? You do have to remember too that if sms did model them correctly they will feel completely different from the new cars in the game. Race cars back then were a handful and tire technology was really pretty poor at that point. The old bias ply tires aren't very forgiving and are like rocks. I have used them in the past and don't remember anything weird with them but ill check.

delahosh
10-03-2016, 16:33
The advanced settings tab makes a difference... By default that setting seems to have its own soft clipping settings built in.

On makes the wheel center more lively...can give good road feel but center of wheel can feel twitchy.

Off center of the wheel feels calmer... still good road feel depending on your global settings but calmer wheel center.

Same here, advanced off feels like a damping.

lancashirelad
10-03-2016, 16:42
Lotus 49 just felt wrong ff wise. No real road feel and difficult to sense the back end going. Im aware they are a handful but they just didn't seem connected to the track, hard to explain. Also steering seems to snap back to centre.

Krus Control
10-03-2016, 17:39
Lotus 49 just felt wrong ff wise. No real road feel and difficult to sense the back end going. Im aware they are a handful but they just didn't seem connected to the track, hard to explain. Also steering seems to snap back to centre.

Turn Mz to 30 or lower. This car has an issue where Mz is way too powerful. Should feel fine after this change. Also I run arm angle at 900-1100. This should improve the feel as well.

morpwr
10-03-2016, 18:42
Lotus 49 just felt wrong ff wise. No real road feel and difficult to sense the back end going. Im aware they are a handful but they just didn't seem connected to the track, hard to explain. Also steering seems to snap back to centre.

Ill try it tonight when I get home. What track? I will say this about the tires though bias ply tires do act like that. You have it then you don't.

lancashirelad
10-03-2016, 19:50
Ill try it tonight when I get home. What track? I will say this about the tires though bias ply tires do act like that. You have it then you don't.
Cheers,
I was on Imola.

GrimeyDog
10-03-2016, 20:52
Any 1 have a usable Arm angle for the KTX Bow??? I grow weary of fiddling with it... Also im Cranky as $#!♧ i have the Flu:mad: so ever little thing making me miserable.

delahosh
10-03-2016, 20:53
My Settings for the T500 : http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-5/6

Hope You like it ;-)

Krus Control
10-03-2016, 21:04
Any 1 have a usable Arm angle for the KTX Bow??? I grow weary of fiddling with it... Also im Cranky as $#!♧ i have the Flu:mad: so ever little thing making me miserable.

I'm running 1300 and it feels great.

Haiden
10-03-2016, 21:08
Any 1 have a usable Arm angle for the KTX Bow??? I grow weary of fiddling with it... Also im Cranky as $#!♧ i have the Flu:mad: so ever little thing making me miserable.

Mines at 1000. I also had to crank the Master Scale up, before the FFB started feeling useful on that car. Otherwise, it was just too light.

morpwr
10-03-2016, 21:30
Any 1 have a usable Arm angle for the KTX Bow??? I grow weary of fiddling with it... Also im Cranky as $#!♧ i have the Flu:mad: so ever little thing making me miserable.

Just used the stock setting grimey. Take the day off its hard to make good decisions when you feel like crap.

morpwr
10-03-2016, 22:10
Lotus 49 just felt wrong ff wise. No real road feel and difficult to sense the back end going. Im aware they are a handful but they just didn't seem connected to the track, hard to explain. Also steering seems to snap back to centre.

Ok just tried it on imola and Watkins glen. First drop the air pressure quite a bit to start this will help with the back end feel a lot. I noticed right away with the default air pressures what you meant. The tires don't warm up with them anyways so lower is good. As for the feel part and maybe someone else can chime in here as I don't drive imola a lot. Its a smooth track. Try the lotus on Watkins glen you can feel every little bump with the same setup. The wheel felt pretty normal to me for an ancient race car with no power steering. Sort of on the heavy side which I expected. I tried this with the 67 and 68 tires so the worst of the options.

morpwr
10-03-2016, 22:13
Just used the stock setting grimey. Take the day off its hard to make good decisions when you feel like crap.Checked mine its 1000 also.

Titzon Toast
11-03-2016, 09:31
My Settings for the T500 : http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-5/6

Hope You like it ;-)

Are those not just the stock settings?!

delahosh
11-03-2016, 10:31
Are those not just the stock settings?!

No,

Changes:
FFB = 40
WPS: 0, 03
DRF: 0, 004
NO SCOOPS
Controller Modus 3 - Advanced ON

and Adjustments for JS-Classic: Fx Smooth : 10,0 / Mz Smooth : 0,0
Simple but useful ;-)

gotdirt410sprintcar
11-03-2016, 12:14
HAPPY FRIDAY

Titzon Toast
11-03-2016, 12:55
No,

Changes:
FFB = 40
WPS: 0, 03
DRF: 0, 004
NO SCOOPS
Controller Modus 3 - Advanced ON

and Adjustments for JS-Classic: Fx Smooth : 10,0 / Mz Smooth : 0,0
Simple but useful ;-)

My bad, I'll try your settings out next time I'm on.
Thank you.

PureMalt77
11-03-2016, 21:39
Hey puremalt, me again.
Would you mind trying just one more tune, I know it's is all about the racing now.

I have ended up going the way of more TF, I know I have been a huge advocate of 100 ffb, but it does lose detail. Its hard to find the best of both worlds. When I lose a car in a spin, I want lose it good. I couldn't find that with ffb at 75 in the past, but I had a couple of good spins tonight.
My new settings are in my signature. This is a take on morpwr's settings with a few math tweaks to suit taking 25% of the cars master scales. I know u have tried my settings in the past and I value your opinions, it's been handy. Hope you like this one. It feels a little more dynamic.

Hi Bunga,
I tested your settings today.
First I tried exactly as you documented it, globals + reducing masters by 25%. The usual Watkins + RUF GT3, I was lapping 1.0 - 1.5s slower. Did a good 15 laps to try and relearn, but only got better when I raised the masters back. Your settings are really good, the detail is definitely there, but for my personal taste I need it way stronger.
I'm not ready yet to trade them against mine! But thanks to the latest tips I did a bit of tweaking to reduce these "kicks" and get even more precision at cornering.

gotdirt410sprintcar
12-03-2016, 03:20
No,

Changes:
FFB = 40
WPS: 0, 03
DRF: 0, 004
NO SCOOPS
Controller Modus 3 - Advanced ON

and Adjustments for JS-Classic: Fx Smooth : 10,0 / Mz Smooth : 0,0
Simple but useful ;-)
It's pretty much stock lol I mean default other than your pwm and no scoops soft clipper. I have a t500 not nocking it something new to try anyway for someone looking. Me I just test different stuff to see how it feels i'm able to throw a global settings together any time.

Lately I been playing with bleed and in car settings I have it at 50 turned down mz seemed to help out on the sticky feel. I really like a high bleed it gives a hole different feel road feel ect.I think I was aligning sop lateral with bleed 50 bleed 50 sop lateral, I don't know something different to try everyday Shit I been doing it since day one lol.

Bunga412
12-03-2016, 05:01
Hi Bunga,
I tested your settings today.
First I tried exactly as you documented it, globals + reducing masters by 25%. The usual Watkins + RUF GT3, I was lapping 1.0 - 1.5s slower. Did a good 15 laps to try and relearn, but only got better when I raised the masters back. Your settings are really good, the detail is definitely there, but for my personal taste I need it way stronger.
I'm not ready yet to trade them against mine! But thanks to the latest tips I did a bit of tweaking to reduce these "kicks" and get even more precision at cornering.

Great man, thanks for trying them.
Good feedback, i'm glad to see that you are able to take something away from them. It's funny how personal taste does play a big part, 95% of us aren't race car drivers and we can only dream about driving some of these cars. I'm one of that 95%. I sold my rm125 thinking of buying a go kart. Instead I brought a ps4, t300 and 2 buttkickers in anticipation for project cars. Then they made me wait, (sad face).
Most of us don't really know how close the ffb feels to the real thing, this is why it pays to be a member of this forum. It never hurts to give someone else's idea a shot. That idea could be the one that makes this game feel real to you. I think it's time for me to give the fg falcon another spanking around the track, get some race miles.

Haiden
12-03-2016, 14:44
Most of us don't really know how close the ffb feels to the real thing, this is why it pays to be a member of this forum. It never hurts to give someone else's idea a shot. That idea could be the one that makes this game feel real to you. I think it's time for me to give the fg falcon another spanking around the track, get some race miles.

What he says between 18:30 and 20:30 is basically why I've climbed out of the FFB rabbit hole. I love my current global tune, and it's only gotten better since I stopped fiddling and allowed myself time to settle into it. :) I use Jack's classic in-car settings, and so far haven't had to adjust anything other than the master scales and removing all smoothing. PCars isn't SimCommander, but it's open global configuration probably makes it the closest thing you'll ever see to it on console. I'm actually glad SMS hasn't commented on anything regarding FFB or made any recommendations. Because, if they had, that would quickly become law, and a lot of people would never find their own personal sweet spot. :)


https://youtu.be/iHvV1WWaH8E?t=18m30s

Ekay.jay
12-03-2016, 15:35
What he says between 18:30 and 20:30 is basically why I've climbed out of the FFB rabbit hole. I love my current global tune, and it's only gotten better since I stopped fiddling and allowed myself time to settle into it. :) I use Jack's classic in-car settings, and so far haven't had to adjust anything other than the master scales and removing all smoothing. PCars isn't SimCommander, but it's open global configuration probably makes it the closest thing you'll ever see to it on console. I'm actually glad SMS hasn't commented on anything regarding FFB or made any recommendations. Because, if they had, that would quickly become law, and a lot of people would never find their own personal sweet spot. :)


https://youtu.be/iHvV1WWaH8E?t=18m30s

I would be curious as to what kind of ffb settings SMS uses though.

Haiden
12-03-2016, 15:47
I would be curious as to what kind of ffb settings SMS uses though.

I doubt they're all using the same settings. Probably just a personal and diverse as the community. It'd be funny if they were all running default setting, though. :)

PureMalt77
12-03-2016, 17:32
I doubt they're all using the same settings. Probably just a personal and diverse as the community. It'd be funny if they were all running default setting, though. :)

Do they play the game at all??? If they did, some basic bugs wouldn't be there anymore...

Bunga412
12-03-2016, 23:19
What he says between 18:30 and 20:30 is basically why I've climbed out of the FFB rabbit hole. I love my current global tune, and it's only gotten better since I stopped fiddling and allowed myself time to settle into it. :) I use Jack's classic in-car settings, and so far haven't had to adjust anything other than the master scales and removing all smoothing. PCars isn't SimCommander, but it's open global configuration probably makes it the closest thing you'll ever see to it on console. I'm actually glad SMS hasn't commented on anything regarding FFB or made any recommendations. Because, if they had, that would quickly become law, and a lot of people would never find their own personal sweet spot. :)


https://youtu.be/iHvV1WWaH8E?t=18m30s

I have watched this vid before. It is 100% how you perceive in which way the ffb should feel. I have climbed out of my rabbit hole now and am now just doing miner tweaks around my setup. I'm mainly getting race miles again.

I do think it would be kind of cool to have a page with some of the devs wheel and car settings. Or even the drivers who were involved. It would be very interesting to see how they indeed perceive the FFB and what wheels they race with. I wouldn't even mind seeing a photo of Ian Bell's racing rig, that I think would be cool.

lancashirelad
13-03-2016, 21:18
Firstly,thanks to all who helped with my lotus 49 setup was a big improvement.
I've been using mopwrs settings recently and they were the best I had tried. Had this game from release and spent far to long in the force feedback settings. I think I'm finished tweaking now. Done quite a bit of testing this week with a very slight tweak on mopwr settings.
The main difference is I can use default in car force feedback ( no need for jack spades) .This is what I have been aiming for.
As always some people will not like them but that's fine. I would welcome any feedback.
Settings in my signature.
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/personal-settings

SGETI
13-03-2016, 21:40
. I would welcome any feedback.
Settings in my signature.
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/personal-settings

Thank you for the settings, however the link brings you to a blank page. Also I do not see your name in the index. :confused:

lancashirelad
13-03-2016, 22:11
OK I'll have a look and see what the problem is.
Edit- clicked on link and it worked. What browser you using?
I'm using chrome.
My name is same as my psn Storm--Trooper-
I use T300rs.

spacepadrille
13-03-2016, 22:18
Tour link brings to your personal settings only if you are logged (but in this case I can se MY personal settings). Otherwise it's blank page. Get out of "your personal settings" and browse your name before copying the link.

Here is the good link
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/171

lancashirelad
13-03-2016, 22:30
OK updated thanks.

GrimeyDog
14-03-2016, 10:01
Off Topic but i played Assestto Corsa Last Night... How Refreshing it is just to jump in and drive with No FFB Fuss... Also Assetto Corsa the wheel seems to Convey the Same FFB detail but at a Much Lighter FFB strength and wheel weight....Assetto Corsa has a Nice Progressive Feel when your turning the wheel PCars doesn't have ....i think thats why the wheel can get away with being so light in the beginning of the turning range ....Hmmmm.. Cant figure out how to duplicate that feel on Pcars.

Bunga412
14-03-2016, 10:10
Off Topic but i played Assestto Corsa Last Night... How Refreshing it is just to jump in and drive with No FFB Fuss... Also Assetto Corsa the wheel seems to Convey the Same FFB detail but at a Much Lighter FFB strength and wheel weight....Assetto Corsa has a Nice Progressive Feel when your turning the wheel PCars doesn't have ....i think thats why the wheel can get away with being so light in the beginning of the turning range ....Hmmmm.. Cant figure out how to duplicate that feel on Pcars.
I can't wait to try it. Can't believe it's already been delayed on ps4.

RichE
14-03-2016, 14:17
If the ffb is good straight out of the box i can't see me playing pcars much. All the messing with the ffb has really taken away the fun for me.

GrimeyDog
14-03-2016, 14:26
If the ffb is good straight out of the box i can't see me playing pcars much. All the messing with the ffb has really taken away the fun for me.

Exactly... i think im going into Pcars FFB burn out again. SMH

Also after playing Assetto Corsa on PC i can Really See just how Much Stress the wheel is under playing PCars to get the same FFB Feel!!! To get the same level of FFB datail i Need the wheel 3x stronger with Pcars than i do with Asstto Corsa!!!

I think im going to Start all the FFB Tweek over Again.

Edit .. Secondary thought!!!: the Real Pisser is that even with a older Medium build PC and Graphics card... i think the AMD 6770... the Graphics on My PC and Assetto Corsa still blow the PS4 Pcars graphics to bits!!!

Haiden
14-03-2016, 16:33
If the ffb is good straight out of the box i can't see me playing pcars much. All the messing with the ffb has really taken away the fun for me.

IMO, AC is a good replacement for Forza, but it doesn't have enough cars or tracks to replace PCars. Especially the track list.

Titzon Toast
14-03-2016, 16:54
If the ffb is good straight out of the box i can't see me playing pcars much. All the messing with the ffb has really taken away the fun for me.

I got a new wheel recently and did a complete fresh install to go with it. If you ask me, since patch 9 the ffb feels superb. I lowered my global FFB down to 33 and dialed in Jack Spades FY Sop lat settings per car and that's it.
The graph looks great and there's no clipping.
I'm a happy camper.

morpwr
14-03-2016, 21:00
IMO, AC is a good replacement for Forza, but it doesn't have enough cars or tracks to replace PCars. Especially the track list.

I ordered it so I guess when it gets released we will find out. But the way the ffb is now its going to have to be really good to make me put down p cars. Its nice to have good racing options on console finally though. Don't get me wrong the gt series got me into this and I still really like it but more times than I can count ive bought racing games and never played them again because the physics were horrible.

tennenbaum
14-03-2016, 21:20
Exactly... i think im going into Pcars FFB burn out again. SMH

Also after playing Assetto Corsa on PC i can Really See just how Much Stress the wheel is under playing PCars to get the same FFB Feel!!! To get the same level of FFB datail i Need the wheel 3x stronger with Pcars than i do with Asstto Corsa!!!

I think im going to Start all the FFB Tweek over Again.

Edit .. Secondary thought!!!: the Real Pisser is that even with a older Medium build PC and Graphics card... i think the AMD 6770... the Graphics on My PC and Assetto Corsa still blow the PS4 Pcars graphics to bits!!!

l see us all moving over to pc. stable reliable mp servers.. great graphics... hhm, i never had a pc since i can remember, i run even vrhive and crew chief on a bootcamp-ed mac. but if psn can't improve...

there is just one thing i'm waiting for, or better said i don't understand why all the car racing game devs show so little talent with: race day atmosphere...!!! it needs so few ingredients to create atmoshere (if you know how to do it), it would be a huge game changer!

technically nowadays race games are stunning, but presentation-wise they are all in the stone age. i wonder if these nerds ever talked to "metteurs en scene", creatives, directors, dramaturgists, screenwriters, production designers... even the Forza or GranTurismo series with their money loaded budgets lack ridicously of "atmosphere", "textures", "touch", "style", "liveliness", "wit", "grandezza", "broadness", "density", real social / community dramatization, etc.

for me being a filmmaker it hurts me to see how much potential the games do not utilize...

racing is drama, fun, entertainement, crazyness, exitement, panic, emotions... a whole world, these games need a SOUL an artistic approach, a very thoroughly thought through attitude, ... a great script... (not like Need for Speed!!!)

don't the producers and game directors of the race games read the threads...? so much good vibes and dedication, when do they (the devs) finally realize do get out of their realm and meet guys who know how to make the great coding really look and feel bold, intriquing and truly envolving? i gave up hope on Forza... if Kaz f***s it up with GT7 too, i start my own dev studio... kidding!

Ekay.jay
14-03-2016, 21:58
We shouldn't have to move to pc in order to play this game. I'll move to another game before I'm required to build a pc to play pcars.

GrimeyDog
15-03-2016, 00:11
l see us all moving over to pc. stable reliable mp servers.. great graphics... hhm, i never had a pc since i can remember, i run even vrhive and crew chief on a bootcamp-ed mac. but if psn can't improve...

there is just one thing i'm waiting for, or better said i don't understand why all the car racing game devs show so little talent with: race day atmosphere...!!! it needs so few ingredients to create atmoshere (if you know how to do it), it would be a huge game changer!

technically nowadays race games are stunning, but presentation-wise they are all in the stone age. i wonder if these nerds ever talked to "metteurs en scene", creatives, directors, dramaturgists, screenwriters, production designers... even the Forza or GranTurismo series with their money loaded budgets lack ridicously of "atmosphere", "textures", "touch", "style", "liveliness", "wit", "grandezza", "broadness", "density", real social / community dramatization, etc.

for me being a filmmaker it hurts me to see how much potential the games do not utilize...

racing is drama, fun, entertainement, crazyness, exitement, panic, emotions... a whole world, these games need a SOUL an artistic approach, a very thoroughly thought through attitude, ... a great script... (not like Need for Speed!!!)

don't the producers and game directors of the race games read the threads...? so much good vibes and dedication, when do they (the devs) finally realize do get out of their realm and meet guys who know how to make the great coding really look and feel bold, intriquing and truly envolving? i gave up hope on Forza... if Kaz f***s it up with GT6 too, i start my own dev studio... kidding!

F1 2010/2011 was the last game i remember with a big production added into the racing experience.


We shouldn't have to move to pc in order to play this game. I'll move to another game before I'm required to build a pc to play pcars.

i don't think that moving to PC is required to play Pcars...i was just stating that at this point My mid level PC still blows PS4 and XB1 away as far as Graphics and game play when it comes to Sim racing games. Assetto corsa Really looks and plays well on PC with No FFB fuss or hassel...and MY PC has a Few Years on it!!!

Im just getting tiered of all the guess work when it comes to Pcars and the FFB!!! Now with the Fanatec wheels im pretty sure that it is as Haiden said the GM FFB has No impact!!! i used to use GM FFB 35 to balance My at the wheel power level...It doesn't work like that any more and SMS said Nothing as to what or why...Maybe its a bug that will be fixed or maybe they just set it like that so we have to control it through the FFB on the Fanatec wheels??? We don't know but in any event it would be Nice to know whats going on so we know how to tweek.... it was a simple fix i just lowered the RAC to 84 to cut the power and wheel weight with All cars feel balanced again but it gets frustrating Never knowing and always guessing.

Driving the Ruff the change in FFB weight is Noticeable but barely... The KTX Bow the change in Wheel weight is very Noticeable because there is not alot of bump and road feel to that car on Montecarlo so it made the car feel like dragging a bag of sand around.

morpwr
15-03-2016, 00:12
We shouldn't have to move to pc in order to play this game. I'll move to another game before I'm required to build a pc to play pcars.

I saw what happened to you guys sunday. That sucks. I agree we shouldn't have to move to pc to play. I like the convenience of a console. Why do the other games work? Not saying they are perfect but my girlfriend and her son play cod all the time with very few issues.

Ekay.jay
15-03-2016, 00:33
I have no clue what's wrong with it, everyone seems to drop like flies. I however have not had one disconnect with our league. It just sucks for the guys that can't race with us.

Any ways to get back on track, here are the wheel settings I am staying with for good

Wheel is thrustmaster t300, using Jack's classic(even the smoothing).

FFB-75
Tire force- 100
Pwm-0
Pwms-0
Wps-0.4
Drr-0.05
Drf-0.19 -- 0.1 Then 9 clicks right
Rag-1.15
Rab-.10
Rac-.98
SK-0.70
SR-0.25
Sc half-0
Sc full-0
Mss-0.25
Lssc-0.75
Less-1.0
SG-0.75

Haiden
15-03-2016, 04:02
I hate the fuss with PC gaming. I'm gonna have to get a lot more involved with sim racing, before I make that leap. For me console is just uber convenient right now. And the graphics aren't that bad. I used to be a PC gamer, and preferred it to console for the longest. But the new consoles have come a long way, and they'll last for 8-10 years. Doubt you'll get that out of a PC graphics cards, and a good one costs about as much as a console. If I ever do go back to PC, it won't be just for graphics. I'll get an Accuforce wheel, so I use SimCommander to really bring out the FFB, and would probably go triple screen. Unfortunately, I no longer have the gaming time to make that kind of investment worth while. :(

Asseto Corsa looks really good, but the car and track list are short compared to PCars. They have licenses that SMS doesn't, so it will be cool to race some of those cars, but that's about it. There isn't enough content to make it my one and only. Not that I'm looking to, though. I don't have any problems with PCars' FFB. It doesn't feel like Corsa, for the same reason Corsa and PCars don't feel like iRacing or Forza, or any other sim. They're just different. But, IMO, PCars has an amazing level of immersion, and I love the feel of the FFB now. Sure it took a while to get to this point, but it was worth it, and I've still got a massive track and car list to go through. There are cars I've actually never touched, and quite a few tracks that I haven't spent much time on. Talk about longevity. :)

Also, I think the reason most racing sims skimp on atmosphere is resource management. Atmosphere takes processing power, and they'd rather put it toward the track experience. F1 2015 can do it because the game only has one class of car, which simplifies a lot of things (AI, physics, etc... all based one class). It also uses a lot of canned effects. Don't get me wrong, I like F1 2015, because it captures the F1 feel. But I'd rather my sims focus on the track experience and put the processing power there.

tennenbaum
15-03-2016, 06:10
I saw what happened to you guys sunday. That sucks. I agree we shouldn't have to move to pc to play. I like the convenience of a console. Why do the other games work? Not saying they are perfect but my girlfriend and her son play cod all the time with very few issues.

that's true.

spacepadrille
15-03-2016, 06:38
I have no clue what's wrong with it, everyone seems to drop like flies. I however have not had one disconnect with our league. It just sucks for the guys that can't race with us.

Any ways to get back on track, here are the wheel settings I am staying with for good

Wheel is thrustmaster t300, using Jack's classic(even the smoothing).

FFB-75
Tire force- 100
Pwm-0
Pwms-0
Wps-0.4
Drr-0.5
Drf-0.19 -- 01. Then 9 clicks right
Rag-1.15
Rab-.10
Rac-.98
SK-0.70
SR-0.25
Sc half-0
Sc full-0
Mss-0.25
Lssc-0.75
Less-1.0
SG-0.75

Thanks for sharing. Nice & fast settings (tried them yesterday). I guess DRR is 0.05 instead of 0.5 ? (you have to correct it on oscarolim site)

spacepadrille
15-03-2016, 06:43
PCars has an amazing level of immersion, and I love the feel of the FFB now. Sure it took a while to get to this point, but it was worth it, and I've still got a massive track and car list to go through. There are cars I've actually never touched, and quite a few tracks that I haven't spent much time on. Talk about longevity. :)

Yes Haiden, you're right ! I think I can be occupied by PCars 1 for years ! I'm playing since July, every day, and I only know well 5 or 6 tracks and 6 or 7 cars ! When I saw AC was delayed to june, I thought it was a good news, letting me more time exclusively on PCars ;-)

tennenbaum
15-03-2016, 06:54
I hate the fuss with PC gaming. I'm gonna have to get a lot more involved with sim racing, before I make that leap. For me console is just uber convenient right now. And the graphics aren't that bad. I used to be a PC gamer, and preferred it to console for the longest. But the new consoles have come a long way, and they'll last for 8-10 years. Doubt you'll get that out of a PC graphics cards, and a good one costs about as much as a console. If I ever do go back to PC, it won't be just for graphics. I'll get an Accuforce wheel, so I use SimCommander to really bring out the FFB, and would probably go triple screen. Unfortunately, I no longer have the gaming time to make that kind of investment worth while. :(

Asseto Corsa looks really good, but the car and track list are short compared to PCars. They have licenses that SMS doesn't, so it will be cool to race some of those cars, but that's about it. There isn't enough content to make it my one and only. Not that I'm looking to, though. I don't have any problems with PCars' FFB. It doesn't feel like Corsa, for the same reason Corsa and PCars don't feel like iRacing or Forza, or any other sim. They're just different. But, IMO, PCars has an amazing level of immersion, and I love the feel of the FFB now. Sure it took a while to get to this point, but it was worth it, and I've still got a massive track and car list to go through. There are cars I've actually never touched, and quite a few tracks that I haven't spent much time on. Talk about longevity. :)

Also, I think the reason most racing sims skimp on atmosphere is resource management. Atmosphere takes processing power, and they'd rather put it toward the track experience. F1 2015 can do it because the game only has one class of car, which simplifies a lot of things (AI, physics, etc... all based one class). It also uses a lot of canned effects. Don't get me wrong, I like F1 2015, because it captures the F1 feel. But I'd rather my sims focus on the track experience and put the processing power there.

everything you say i agree with. i think i was rather looking into the future. kind of personal wishlist... i just find it personaly interesting if someone would go the other way round, less tracks and cars but all resources and focus on the multiplayer race event. i know there are hundreds of marketing reasons against it, but sometimes you get stuck into the "rules" of a genre, especially if you're a master of your craft. then a fresh and radical approach can be vitalizing. i'm curious to see if GT Sports brings a new perspective. unfortunately marketing tends to weight features and quantity over quality of fundamental things, which often hinders the devs to go deeper into what i call the soul of a game.

whatever. i'm really happy now with my very personal FFB settings, that i recently called "experimental". when i doubted them i gave JS settings another try. The JS settings are for sure great, i think he really got the maximum out of what's possible. though i prefere a different characteristic of the wheel. the best thing for me was to turn SK and SR off and to use no compression or limiting any more. And to increase steering sensitivity. with this simple pure setting i only have to adjust Mz and TF or Master spindle scale and sop scale (which is convenient since it can be done in the pit box) to "normalize" each car to my personal liking. since then i can hop from car to car and track to track getting the individual characteristic of the tracks and cars, instead of different feelings from the FFB.

That increased the fun i have with the game a lot. because this way it's fun to explore the variety of cars and tracks instead of the variety of the FFB...;-) Most important for me was that i can now jump onto a new track and my driving feels intuitive. i think Haiden or morpwr mentioned it before: a good FFB feels good also when you are not on your fastest hot lap line, but when you have to improvise (as e.g. in a race).

tennenbaum
15-03-2016, 07:11
I have no clue what's wrong with it, everyone seems to drop like flies. I however have not had one disconnect with our league. It just sucks for the guys that can't race with us.

Any ways to get back on track, here are the wheel settings I am staying with for good

Wheel is thrustmaster t300, using Jack's classic(even the smoothing).

FFB-75
Tire force- 100
Pwm-0
Pwms-0
Wps-0.4
Drr-0.5
Drf-0.19 -- 01. Then 9 clicks rightj
Rag-1.15
Rab-.10
Rac-.98
SK-0.70
SR-0.25
Sc half-0
Sc full-0
Mss-0.25
Lssc-0.75
Less-1.0
SG-0.75

yes, as funny as it sounds the smoothing actually helps to accentuate the FFB; it kind of "clarifies" the over all feel.

PureMalt77
15-03-2016, 07:34
Don't get fooled that PCars on PC is bug-free! 3 of my working colleagues are PC players and complain about the same issues: crashes here and there, FFB loss, land-mines...
Their network is indeed better, and you can run dedicated servers. But this game was very playable online from start until December-January I recall. Only now it got to an extreme situation, which I can only hope to be temporary.
Actually, there has been many games releases on PS4 since Xmas (Battlefront, Uncharted Multiplayer, now The Division...) I think Sony need to review their machine park IMO. I also don't know how much the studio pays Sony for machines, but like in any other Cloud-based system, you gotta buy resources to cope with the demand...
There is no guarantee that when AC comes out, Sony dedicates servers to it to keep the hype and selling high, and after six-months we get to the same situation.

Jack Spade
15-03-2016, 07:53
I have no clue what's wrong with it, everyone seems to drop like flies. I however have not had one disconnect with our league. It just sucks for the guys that can't race with us.

Any ways to get back on track, here are the wheel settings I am staying with for good

Wheel is thrustmaster t300, using Jack's classic(even the smoothing).

FFB-75
Tire force- 100
Pwm-0
Pwms-0
Wps-0.4
Drr-0.5
Drf-0.19 -- 01. Then 9 clicks right
Rag-1.15
Rab-.10
Rac-.98
SK-0.70
SR-0.25
Sc half-0
Sc full-0
Mss-0.25
Lssc-0.75
Less-1.0
SG-0.75

To clarify this....I use Fx and Mz Smoothing on all cars to avoid the spin-off force "grinding". Actually required only on several cars but I just didnīt feel like
taking a closer look on each and every one hence this setting as a precaution on all of them. On PC "Smoothing" is called "Low Pass" and thatīs what it really
is, a filter that cuts off high frequency noise in this case.

tennenbaum
15-03-2016, 08:53
Don't get fooled that PCars on PC is bug-free! 3 of my working colleagues are PC players and complain about the same issues: crashes here and there, FFB loss, land-mines...
Their network is indeed better, and you can run dedicated servers. But this game was very playable online from start until December-January I recall. Only now it got to an extreme situation, which I can only hope to be temporary.
Actually, there has been many games releases on PS4 since Xmas (Battlefront, Uncharted Multiplayer, now The Division...) I think Sony need to review their machine park IMO. I also don't know how much the studio pays Sony for machines, but like in any other Cloud-based system, you gotta buy resources to cope with the demand...
There is no guarantee that when AC comes out, Sony dedicates servers to it to keep the hype and selling high, and after six-months we get to the same situation.

...experience meets reality. what you say sounds reasonable. The only way to get a hint what could make disconnects more probable is to take a quick survey among the World Cars Championship players who uses which MTU values, Wifi or Ethernet, and which router and average ping and bandwidth. May be there is correlation to some of the parameters. Even better: SMS reacts and improves...

GrimeyDog
15-03-2016, 10:02
Don't get Me wrong... I still like Pcars its a Great Fame with Huge potential...Once you get it dialed in its Very Good...My Gripe was and is that when things Change that we Still have to play the Guessing game about what changed and whats still the same...Thats My only Gripe... its almost 1 year since release Enough is enough!!!

Funny thing is i always chose Consol over PC because of the Ease of plug and play...I dont always have time or the desire to Tweek and re tweek Setting after setting... I just want to Play and Relax... The Tweeking was Fun at first but i feel its time that we need to and Deserve to be better informed by SMS as to what is going on when changes are Made so that we can make the simple adjustments and race on...

Funnything is Now that im using the apps i see the Tires on the app screen Red Hot but the Game Screen tires are Green:confused: but you can feel liss of Grip because of Heat... which leads me to think that 9.0 is 6.0 tire Heat Model just without the Color changes!!! LOL...We all have our Love/Hate moments with Pcars.

Assetto Corsa is definitly going to Raise the bar a bit!!! just because of the Competition factor!!! Pcars will Have a Direct Challenger... Competition keeps every 1 on their "A" game....Thats a Good thing.....those that have played AC know it Looks and plays very well...if it Plays outa the Gate on Console as it does on PC it will be a Huge thorn in Pcars side!!! Stiff competition is going to really Heat things up i think the best s yet to come!!!

Both Games have Tracks i Love I sooo Wish i could take the PCars Gt3 Ruf Screaming around Mugello!!! or Motegi.

as Far as Driving physics i feel the same things in Pcars that i do in Assetto Corsa basically 100% the same... Biggest difference is Assetto Corsa has a progressive steering that gets stiffer the More you turn the wheel until Lock.... I can Not duplicate that feel with PCars... I wont get into a debate about Canned effects Vs Real Effects because basicly they are all just a Simulated version of Reality there is No Right/ Real or Wrong/ Canned effects... as long as they convey FFB information about track and car that simulate a resonable realistic driving experience its Good IMO...its Not going to be perfect just as close as it can be.

Ekay.jay
15-03-2016, 10:12
Thanks for sharing. Nice & fast settings (tried them yesterday). I guess DRR is 0.05 instead of 0.5 ? (you have to correct it on oscarolim site)


Yes it's .005, it's fixed now

Ekay.jay
15-03-2016, 10:18
Don't get fooled that PCars on PC is bug-free! 3 of my working colleagues are PC players and complain about the same issues: crashes here and there, FFB loss, land-mines...
Their network is indeed better, and you can run dedicated servers. But this game was very playable online from start until December-January I recall. Only now it got to an extreme situation, which I can only hope to be temporary.
Actually, there has been many games releases on PS4 since Xmas (Battlefront, Uncharted Multiplayer, now The Division...) I think Sony need to review their machine park IMO. I also don't know how much the studio pays Sony for machines, but like in any other Cloud-based system, you gotta buy resources to cope with the demand...
There is no guarantee that when AC comes out, Sony dedicates servers to it to keep the hype and selling high, and after six-months we get to the same situation.


I see a lot of people post that they run no smoothing. For me i tried turning all smoothing off, the wheel felt really notchy in certain parts. I like your settings exactly how they are.

morpwr
15-03-2016, 10:21
...experience meets reality. what you say sounds reasonable. The only way to get a hint what could make disconnects more probable is to take a quick survey among the World Cars Championship players who uses which MTU values, Wifi or Ethernet, and which router and average ping and bandwidth. May be there is correlation to some of the parameters. Even better: SMS reacts and improves...

I do know from the one time I played online with grimey lag in racing games is horrible. lol I'm using Ethernet trying to use wifi with the ps4 is a joke. If you want 12 hour downloads sure use wifi. Even if you have the fastest broadband available to you many of the companies limit you during peak times so that's something to think about. They aren't supposed to but they do. That was one of the reasons i switched from my last provider. Every time the kids were off from school the internet was ridiculously slow. One other thing to think about also if your house is older is if the cable in your house is actually the newer cable the old stuff. The old cable cant keep up but will work in some cases.

Haiden
15-03-2016, 10:29
I see a lot of people post that they run no smoothing. For me i tried turning all smoothing off, the wheel felt really notchy in certain parts. I like your settings exactly how they are.

I used Jack's in-car settings,too, but without the smoothing. I think it also depends on the wheel, and, like Jack said, the car. Eventually, I'm sure I'll come across a car that requires a click on Fx or Mz.

BigDad
15-03-2016, 10:33
everything you say i agree with. i think i was rather looking into the future. kind of personal wishlist... i just find it personaly interesting if someone would go the other way round, less tracks and cars but all resources and focus on the multiplayer race event. i know there are hundreds of marketing reasons against it, but sometimes you get stuck into the "rules" of a genre, especially if you're a master of your craft. then a fresh and radical approach can be vitalizing. i'm curious to see if GT Sports brings a new perspective. unfortunately marketing tends to weight features and quantity over quality of fundamental things, which often hinders the devs to go deeper into what i call the soul of a game.

whatever. i'm really happy now with my very personal FFB settings, that i recently called "experimental". when i doubted them i gave JS settings another try. The JS settings are for sure great, i think he really got the maximum out of what's possible. though i prefere a different characteristic of the wheel. the best thing for me was to turn SK and SR off and to use no compression or limiting any more. And to increase steering sensitivity. with this simple pure setting i only have to adjust Mz and TF or Master spindle scale and sop scale (which is convenient since it can be done in the pit box) to "normalize" each car to my personal liking. since then i can hop from car to car and track to track getting the individual characteristic of the tracks and cars, instead of different feelings from the FFB.

That increased the fun i have with the game a lot. because this way it's fun to explore the variety of cars and tracks instead of the variety of the FFB...;-) Most important for me was that i can now jump onto a new track and my driving feels intuitive. i think Haiden or morpwr mentioned it before: a good FFB feels good also when you are not on your fastest hot lap line, but when you have to improvise (as e.g. in a race).
Hi Mate , i haven't seen you "experimental" settings posted anywhere , is there a chance of posting them for me to try please ?

tennenbaum
15-03-2016, 13:19
Hi Mate , i haven't seen you "experimental" settings posted anywhere , is there a chance of posting them for me to try please ?

as said "experimental"... it feels quite different than most of the common/approved settings. (I guess the approach must feel pretty wrong to everybody who favors a heavy/strong FFB in general.)

Here my thoughts behind the values.../context:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1249132&viewfull=1#post1249132

I was looking for a setting that is competitive enough, but allows me intuitive "cruising" with different cars (except karts) on different tracks, without the need of fighting the wheel too much.

I also used this setting last Sunday on the WCC championship in Monaco and Sonoma. I'm by far not as fast as PureMalt, EkayJay, SGETI, Haiden, Mantu, morpwr, Grimey, sevensixty, and the other cracks, but that's not due to my FFB... :-)

globals
TF 100
wps 0.04
drr 0.06
drf 0.02
rag 135
rab 0.06
rac 200 (with RAC set to 200 i make sure i don't get any soft-limiting)
sk 0.0
sr 0.0
schi 0.0
scfo 0.0
mss 0.25
lssc 0.75
lsss 0.76
sg 1.00

steering sensitivity 83
FFB 42 (NB: that just my personal taste of a light wheel. i can correct sudden oversteer better with a lighter wheel. i guess you can go much higher with the same settings, however with higher in-game FFB the t300 hardware caused compression (specific convex shaped I/O graph-curve), that i do not "linearize" with SR, will come stronger into effect.)

in-car
ms 12
fx 100 / smoothing 10
fy 82 / smoothing 10
fz 86
mz 160* / smoothing 10

arm angle 1500

sop scale 12
sop lat 20
sop diff 60
sop damp (smoothing) 10

values not listed = default

* Mz 160 i use e.g. for the RUF 8 GT3. For the KTM Xbow i increased Mz to 200, cause the KTM is a sandbag, as Grimey put it...

Point is, i keep Fxyz the same for other cars, i only change Mz to get the kind of responsiveness from a car that i need, then i'm leveling/normalizing with Master Spindle Scale and SoP scale the maximum signal strength to 1.00 / 100 % in the HUD just before clipping. (MS and SoP scale same value both... not because this is a must, but to keep my "referencing" simple)

GrimeyDog
15-03-2016, 13:43
LOL...The KTM really did feel like a sand Bag!!! LOL... I think that's because there was Not alot going on with the RAB and Scoop settings to Bleed off weight and Create FFB weight transfer effects... Its a Very Stable and Planted car.

But also My RAC was set way too High (92)!!! because that car does Not Have alot of FFB Bleed Off My wheel felt way strong and the subtle Feel was getting Drowned out by the Stronger weight Driven FFB effects.... I set RAC to 84 changed scoops to 68/16 and all feels Normal again...Running Much better Laps with the KTM Now due to More Road Feel and less wheel weight... Happy:D

These changes were Necessary because i cant Change at the wheel FFB strength with the GM FFB anymore.... I had been ignoring that fact but Driving the KTM made it evident and Critical that Change was Much Needed.... I haven't really played with the FFB in a bit.

Haiden
15-03-2016, 14:10
LOL...The KTM really did feel like a sand Bag!!! LOL... I think thats because there was Not alot going on with the RAB and Scoop settings to Bleed off weight and Create FFB weight transfer effects... Its a Very Stable and Planted car.

Man...I'd say anything but stable. At high speed that car has terrible weight transfer. It's all over the place. I think the BAC Mono is much better car. You just have to be smooth on the throttle with that one. :)

GrimeyDog
15-03-2016, 15:07
Man...I'd say anything but stable. At high speed that car has terrible weight transfer. It's all over the place. I think the BAC Mono is much better car. You just have to be smooth on the throttle with that one. :)

I drove Stock suspension With No Assist.. I could Throttle Mash and Not Skid out also Slam Brakes and Very Little Skidding... For Me Car just Felt Heavy... But everything Stable when your Going Slow!!!;) LOL best lap was a 1:44.xxx Changed my settings Now i can get it to 1:43.xxx I shoulda done my home work with that car... i just wast really into it like i shoulda been... The Flu had Me Beat... I didnt even use my F1 rim which would have made turning Much Quicker and easier with that car...Shrugggs... Great Fun anyway:D

PureMalt77
15-03-2016, 15:39
Man...I'd say anything but stable. At high speed that car has terrible weight transfer. It's all over the place. I think the BAC Mono is much better car. You just have to be smooth on the throttle with that one. :)

For Sonoma I hardened the springs and sway bars a lot to fight the weight transfer (quite noticeable in the high-speed left-right swipes), using more camber to hold grip.
Actually this car is not perfect, but due to its limited tuning options, is a good car to "learn" one thing or two about mechanics. And by not being so fast or nervous, also quite good to rescue after losing the back. I found it to be a good experience.

Haiden
15-03-2016, 16:11
I drove Stock suspension With No Assist.. I could Throttle Mash and Not Skid out also Slam Brakes and Very Little Skidding... For Me Car just Felt Heavy... But everything Stable when your Going Slow!!!;) LOL best lap was a 1:44.xxx Changed my settings Now i can get it to 1:43.xxx I shoulda done my home work with that car... i just wast really into it like i shoulda been... The Flu had Me Beat... I didnt even use my F1 rim which would have made turning Much Quicker and easier with that car...Shrugggs... Great Fun anyway:D

I ended up using my Gt rim. I like to use what the car actually has in RL. It was that bad on Monaco, but it was a boat at Sonoma. :)


For Sonoma I hardened the springs and sway bars a lot to fight the weight transfer (quite noticeable in the high-speed left-right swipes), using more camber to hold grip.
Actually this car is not perfect, but due to its limited tuning options, is a good car to "learn" one thing or two about mechanics. And by not being so fast or nervous, also quite good to rescue after losing the back. I found it to be a good experience.

I did the same--tightened it up. Help the weight transfer, but resulted in more understeer. It's not a bad car, just not really something I like to race in. More like something my girlfriend would take for a joy ride down the Azure Coast. :) I think I just prefer the Mono, because it's got a little more power and a little better suspension.

GrimeyDog
16-03-2016, 01:33
just went through my Global settings and Re tweeked!!! set the RAC to 75, Re adjusted scoop settings to 72, 14 and Very Nice!!! GM FFB 50...
with RAC 75 and 75 on the wheel FFB the wheel weight and FFB feel is very Nice once again:D well at least until the next update:rolleyes:

SGETI
16-03-2016, 03:15
nothing to see hear. my mistake.

BigDad
16-03-2016, 07:07
nothing to see hear. my mistake.
I saw your post pre edit , naughty naughty , lol

morpwr
16-03-2016, 10:11
I ended up using my Gt rim. I like to use what the car actually has in RL. It was that bad on Monaco, but it was a boat at Sonoma. :)



I did the same--tightened it up. Help the weight transfer, but resulted in more understeer. It's not a bad car, just not really something I like to race in. More like something my girlfriend would take for a joy ride down the Azure Coast. :) I think I just prefer the Mono, because it's got a little more power and a little better suspension.

I tried the mono last night definitely agree there. Its a lot of fun right out of the box where the ktm was sort of a handful. Pretty much what ive been up too lately trying different cars and tracks. I haven't touched my settings and don't think I will be unless something changes. Just having fun trying new stuff. I have a question though maybe somebody here knows. On time trial if you already set a time as long as you set a faster time it should update correct? Tried the glen in road set 14th with very few adjustments and too low air pressure (240 degrees lol) and it didn't register. :confused:

PureMalt77
16-03-2016, 11:24
I tried the mono last night definitely agree there. Its a lot of fun right out of the box where the ktm was sort of a handful. Pretty much what ive been up too lately trying different cars and tracks. I haven't touched my settings and don't think I will be unless something changes. Just having fun trying new stuff. I have a question though maybe somebody here knows. On time trial if you already set a time as long as you set a faster time it should update correct? Tried the glen in road set 14th with very few adjustments and too low air pressure (240 degrees lol) and it didn't register. :confused:

Most of the time it just takes time to show up in the leaderboards, sometimes even many hours.

SGETI
16-03-2016, 12:56
I saw your post pre edit , naughty naughty , lol

I thought I got away clean, lol. Figured the main thread would be a better location for some possible answers to my late night ranting.

tennenbaum
16-03-2016, 13:44
I thought I got away clean, lol. Figured the main thread would be a better location for some possible answers to my late night ranting.

what am i missing?

Haiden
16-03-2016, 14:08
I tried the mono last night definitely agree there. Its a lot of fun right out of the box where the ktm was sort of a handful. Pretty much what ive been up too lately trying different cars and tracks. I haven't touched my settings and don't think I will be unless something changes. Just having fun trying new stuff. I have a question though maybe somebody here knows. On time trial if you already set a time as long as you set a faster time it should update correct? Tried the glen in road set 14th with very few adjustments and too low air pressure (240 degrees lol) and it didn't register. :confused:

I love how smooth the Mono feels. Great car! I'm done tuning as well. I tried something new yesterday, after reading/seeing something in a post. It was a slight change, and didn't really make much difference. In the end, I decided to stick with my settings. At this point, if there are gains to be made, they are so minuscule it just isn't worth the effort. I've settled into my current settings, and any change would just be disruptive. Plus, even the couple hours I spent last night testing that new change were just taxing. I'm tired of going in and out the menus, waiting for things to load, trying to remember how things felt.

On a different note--more tuning related...

A couple things occurred to me last night while I was testing--tuning tips that I haven't heard mentioned in this thread, at least not since I've been following it.

One, if you've narrowed things down to just a few options, and are having a hard time deciding, try muting the sound and running 5-10 laps with each. You'd be amazed how much more you're able to focus on the feel when your sense of sound is taken away. With the sound on, your brain is using both your ears and hands to negotiate the track. You can't stop yourself from reacting to the sound of your tires losing traction. It just happens, part of the natural response you've built from driving. If the FFB tune is good, then even without sound, you should be able to get within a 1.5 seconds of your best lap (I'd actually say within 1, if you run a full 10 laps). The biggest handicap with muted sound will be gearing. You just won't be shifting as well without being able to hear the engine revs. But you should be able to negotiate turns just fine, if your FFB is good.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, once you narrow it down to a two or three options, you have to start looking at more than just laps times. The better tune will sometimes result in slower laps times (at first), because you haven't settled into it, and it's allowing you to drive the car closer to the edge. Being on that edge is sometimes why it seems like cornering is more difficult. But it's not because the FFB is bad; it's because the FFB is allowing you to ride closer to the tire's maximum grip. It's far more difficult to drive on the edge of grip, than it is to drive below it, but the latter just leaves time on the table. It just takes time to settle into the tune, and, for various reasons, we often don't allow ourselves enough time to fully adapt. So instead, of just lap times, make sure you pay attention to things like what gear your in and the rev count when you're cornering. If a tune allows you to hit the apex in a higher gear or rev, that's a very good sign that you're getting more out of the car, carrying more speed through the corner. The fact that you're blowing the corner might not be the FFB, but instead the fact that you haven't settled in the tune, and need to make other adjustments, like a different throttle/brake modulation, to compensate for the lack of reserve grip. When you're not driving on the edge, it's easy to recover or prevent a slide, because you've got grip to spare. The downside of a good FFB tune is, you have less room for error, because when you're on the edge, there's no grip to spare. :) How well you recover from a slide, isn't really a good measure of FFB. Most professional drivers will tell you that it's extremely hard (some even say impossible) for them to recover from a slide, because recovery requires grip, and they usually just don't have any grip left to give. That's why you see more drivers sliding off track, than you do drivers recovering and staying on it. A good FFB tune doesn't make you a better driver, so much as it allows you to driver harder.

Edit: I haven't updated my settings in this thread--can't even remember which page they're on. I'll try to post an update this weekend.

poirqc
16-03-2016, 22:20
I love how smooth the Mono feels. Great car! I'm done tuning as well. I tried something new yesterday, after reading/seeing something in a post. It was a slight change, and didn't really make much difference. In the end, I decided to stick with my settings. At this point, if there are gains to be made, they are so minuscule it just isn't worth the effort. I've settled into my current settings, and any change would just be disruptive. Plus, even the couple hours I spent last night testing that new change were just taxing. I'm tired of going in and out the menus, waiting for things to load, trying to remember how things felt.

On a different note--more tuning related...

A couple things occurred to me last night while I was testing--tuning tips that I haven't heard mentioned in this thread, at least not since I've been following it.

One, if you've narrowed things down to just a few options, and are having a hard time deciding, try muting the sound and running 5-10 laps with each. You'd be amazed how much more you're able to focus on the feel when your sense of sound is taken away. With the sound on, your brain is using both your ears and hands to negotiate the track. You can't stop yourself from reacting to the sound of your tires losing traction. It just happens, part of the natural response you've built from driving. If the FFB tune is good, then even without sound, you should be able to get within a 1.5 seconds of your best lap (I'd actually say within 1, if you run a full 10 laps). The biggest handicap with muted sound will be gearing. You just won't be shifting as well without being able to hear the engine revs. But you should be able to negotiate turns just fine, if your FFB is good.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, once you narrow it down to a two or three options, you have to start looking at more than just laps times. The better tune will sometimes result in slower laps times (at first), because you haven't settled into it, and it's allowing you to drive the car closer to the edge. Being on that edge is sometimes why it seems like cornering is more difficult. But it's not because the FFB is bad; it's because the FFB is allowing you to ride closer to the tire's maximum grip. It's far more difficult to drive on the edge of grip, than it is to drive below it, but the latter just leaves time on the time. It just takes time to settle into the tune, and, for various reasons, we often don't allow ourselves enough time to fully adapt. So instead, of just lap times, make sure you pay attention to things like what gear your in and the rev count when you're cornering. If a tune allows you to hit the apex in a higher gear or rev, that's a very good sign that you're getting more out of the car, carrying more speed through the corner. The fact that you're blowing the corner might not be the FFB, but instead the fact that you haven't settled in the tune, and need to make other adjustments, like a different throttle/brake modulation, to compensate for the lack of reserve grip. When you're not driving on the edge, it's easy to recover or prevent a slide, because you've got grip to spare. The downside of a good FFB tune is, you have less room for error, because when you're on the edge, there's no grip to spare. :) How well you recover from a slide, isn't really a good measure of FFB. Most professional drivers will tell you that it's extremely hard (some even say impossible) for them to recover from a slide, because recovery requires grip, and they usually just don't have any grip left to give. That's why you see more drivers sliding off track, than you do drivers recovering and staying on it. A good FFB tune doesn't make you a better driver, so much as it allows you to driver harder.

Edit: I haven't updated my settings in this thread--can't even remember which page they're on. I'll try to post an update this weekend.

It's so much easier to link them in your signature, they'll be everywhere! :D

Haiden
17-03-2016, 12:12
It's so much easier to link them in your signature, they'll be everywhere! :D

I did, but I when I switched to Jack's settings, I removed the link, because I was using his as-is. But my final version is different enough to share as my own. :)

GrimeyDog
17-03-2016, 12:24
Its Really easy to get Good FFB Feel with Pcars Now... There has been sooo Much info shared that FFB Tweeking is Very easy Now... My only Gripe is that when SMS Changes things around within the FFB system that we have to go through the whole FFB system to figure out what was done... with No answers Rhyme or Reason as to why it was changed.... That Change with the GM FFB and Fanatec wheels was Major and it was Not mentioned at all why or that it was Changed... as it is Now i use the RAC to set the Power Level of FFB forces and the on the wheel FFB for Final Strength ajustment.

75 RAC keeps the FFB way Below the Clipping Zone with Full Dynamic Range and Very Powerful...I Havent Figued out if i like on wheel FFB 65 or 75 yet...both feel light Responsive but still powerful Forces can be felt without excessive wheel weight... also very interesting how using Lower Scoops and RAB can work to Tighten up wheel Center and Responsiveness.

All in All the FFB fets better and better with every update... Im just tiered of having to Guess whats been changed when SMS can simply State what has Changed and we can Make simple Changes to compensate... Its easy to lose your way and Feel constantly Guessing with all the changes that have been made.

Question Has anything Changed with the T300 or Logitec wheels and the GM FFB or is it just the Fanatec wheels??? I only tested PS4... I have Not turned on the XB1 Pcars in a long while.

Koza_Nostra
17-03-2016, 12:54
I agree, that to get a good FFB feel is relatively easy since Patch 9.0. Got myself and upgrade from standard TX pedals to T3PA and it feels a lot better now. There was nothing wrong with TX pedals, but with T3PA the brake pedal is heavier and I haven't even put on brake mod yet. Only thing on T3PA which I don't know if I like it yet, it's a really light Throttle pedal.. Something to get used to, maybe I will have to come up with some way to add some pressure.

I have my own Globals which I like, but last night I was experimenting with other peoples' globals, and I really liked the feel of PureMalt77.. It's just felt good. Tonight I will probably try someone else's global and like them as well. Also PureMalt77 uses different wheel to me, but his settings feel good on TX. And that's what I like that we can find many good FFB settings, if you get bored of one you can always try something different. Really enjoying the game now, and for once my RACING stats are going up instead of Tuning :)

Haiden
17-03-2016, 13:21
Its Really easy to get Good FFB Feel with Pcars Now... There has been sooo Much info shared that FFB Tweeking is Very easy Now... My only Gripe is that when SMS Changes things around within the FFB system that we have to go through the whole FFB system to figure out what was done... with No answers Rhyme or Reason as to why it was changed.... That Change with the GM FFB and Fanatec wheels was Major and it was Not mentioned at all why or that it was Changed... as it is Now i use the RAC to set the Power Level of FFB forces and the on the wheel FFB for Final Strength ajustment.

75 RAC keeps the FFB way Below the Clipping Zone with Full Dynamic Range and Very Powerful...I Havent Figued out if i like on wheel FFB 65 or 75 yet...both feel light Responsive but still powerful Forces can be felt without excessie wheel weight... also very interesting how using Lower Scoops and RAB can work to Tighten up wheel Center and Responsiveness.

All in All the FFB fets better and better with every update... Im just tiered of having to Guess whats been changed when SMS can simply State what has Changed and we can Make simple Changes to compensate... Its easy to lose your way and Feel constantly Guessing with all the changes that have been made.

Question Has anything Changed with the T300 or Logitec wheels and the GM FFB or is it just the Fanatec wheels??? I only tested PS4... I have Not turned on the XB1 Pcars in a long while.

Other than the wheel FF override (which has actually been in place since at least patch 6.0--that's when I got my CSW-v2 and noticed it while tuning), I'm not sure SMS has made any major FFB changes in a long while. I think what they've done is make some pretty big changes to the tire model, and the FFB is derived from that model, which is why it feels like it's changed.

GrimeyDog
17-03-2016, 15:54
Other than the wheel FF override (which has actually been in place since at least patch 6.0--that's when I got my CSW-v2 and noticed it while tuning), I'm not sure SMS has made any major FFB changes in a long while. I think what they've done is make some pretty big changes to the tire model, and the FFB is derived from that model, which is why it feels like it's changed.

Through out all the Tire Model changes GM FFB 35 has always been a Good balance between FFB and Wheel weight...For Me the FFB over ride was Major because its how i adjusted the the Wheel weight VS wheel FFB strength... i used 35 GM FFB since update 3.0 and that has always been a good balance of FFB and wheel weight for My tweek...but in any event i have it sorted Now and all is well... Not going to chase the unicorn again

PureMalt77
17-03-2016, 16:11
I agree, that to get a good FFB feel is relatively easy since Patch 9.0. Got myself and upgrade from standard TX pedals to T3PA and it feels a lot better now. There was nothing wrong with TX pedals, but with T3PA the brake pedal is heavier and I haven't even put on brake mod yet. Only thing on T3PA which I don't know if I like it yet, it's a really light Throttle pedal.. Something to get used to, maybe I will have to come up with some way to add some pressure.

I have my own Globals which I like, but last night I was experimenting with other peoples' globals, and I really liked the feel of PureMalt77.. It's just felt good. Tonight I will probably try someone else's global and like them as well. Also PureMalt77 uses different wheel to me, but his settings feel good on TX. And that's what I like that we can find many good FFB settings, if you get bored of one you can always try something different. Really enjoying the game now, and for once my RACING stats are going up instead of Tuning :)

Glad you like it! Interesting to know that they are still "valid" in the Xbox. I think GrimeyDog once said that on Xbox the FFB is stronger than on PC or PS4. My settings are the best I could get so far for a stronger feel not overblowing the limits.

gruzzlebeard
17-03-2016, 16:21
I love how smooth the Mono feels........


Edit: I haven't updated my settings in this thread--can't even remember which page they're on. I'll try to post an update this weekend.

I'm now using a slightly modified version Jack Spade's global settings, which I'm reposting here for convenience.

Fanatec CSW V2 Wheel base settings:

Wheel base tuning: Sens: AUT | FF: 100 | SHo: 100 | ABS: OFF | Lin: OFF | Dea: OFF | Dri: 3 | For: 100 | Spr: 50 | Dpr: 100 | Brf: 40

Driver settings: Driver/FW 231/142

------------------------------------------------------------

Note: The settings below are for pilots using CSW-v2 wheels. The red highlighted values are the scales that I recommended testing at lower values, if you're looking to adapt these settings to other wheels. I believe the Dri setting on the Fanatec wheel strongly influences the final feel, so that's something to keep in mind when trying to adapt these to other hardware.

In-game, Global FFB Settings:

Tire Force: 75
Force Feedback: 100

Per Wheel Movement: 0.02
Per Wheel Movement Squared: 0.00
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.04

Deadzone Removal Range: 0.02 (lower than Jack's recommended 0.05)
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.01 (lower than Jack's recommended 0.02)

Linkage Scale: 0.00
Linkage Stiffness: 1.00
Linkage Damping: 1.00

Relative Adjust Gain: 1.50
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.10
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.85

Scoop Knee: 0.86
Scoop Reduction: 0.28

Soft Clipping (half input): 0.00
Soft Clipping (full input): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.40
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 1.00

Steering gain: 1.45

In-game, Pedal Sensitivity and Deadzones:

Throttle Deadzone: 7
Throttle Sensitivity: 50
Brake Deadzone: 7
Brake Sensitivity: 35
Clutch Deadzone: 7
Clutch Sensitivity: 35

In-Car FFB Settings:

I'm also using Jack Spade's in-Car FFB Settings. PC pilots can download the latest tweaker files from his original posting (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&highlight=jack+spade). Console players can find an updated version of these settings at the PCars Online Database (http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/cars), which also has a downloadable version (http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/export) of the database.

The only adjustments I make to Jack's in-car tweaks are:

1) Increase the Master and SoP Scales. I have an F1 rim and a GT rim. Two to three increments is usually enough for cars I drive with the F1 rim, but GT rim w/the universal HUB is heavier, so I usually increase the Master scales 6-10 increments to compensate for the amount of force being absorbed by it's additional weight.

2) Remove all smoothing. This is definitely wheel specific and preference related. There may be some cars that need it, but I haven't come across any yet. I recommend trying them without smoothing first to preserve the fidelity, and only adding smoothing if/as needed.

Hi Haiden, above you can find your old post with your settings. I'd be glad if you would share the new ones with us. I'm using very similar settings like you or JS proposed. But I'm still undecided if I should stick to DRI 003 in-wheel (or PWM-PWMS) or if I should skip that at all - I think less is maybe more and enjoy it like it is in standard.

Haiden
17-03-2016, 16:35
Hi Haiden, above you can find your old thread with the setting. I'd be glad if you would share the new ones with us. I'm using very similar settings like you or JS proposed.

Cool! Thanks, man. I'll update them this week and post when it's done.

morpwr
17-03-2016, 17:52
Its Really easy to get Good FFB Feel with Pcars Now... There has been sooo Much info shared that FFB Tweeking is Very easy Now... My only Gripe is that when SMS Changes things around within the FFB system that we have to go through the whole FFB system to figure out what was done... with No answers Rhyme or Reason as to why it was changed.... That Change with the GM FFB and Fanatec wheels was Major and it was Not mentioned at all why or that it was Changed... as it is Now i use the RAC to set the Power Level of FFB forces and the on the wheel FFB for Final Strength ajustment.

75 RAC keeps the FFB way Below the Clipping Zone with Full Dynamic Range and Very Powerful...I Havent Figued out if i like on wheel FFB 65 or 75 yet...both feel light Responsive but still powerful Forces can be felt without excessive wheel weight... also very interesting how using Lower Scoops and RAB can work to Tighten up wheel Center and Responsiveness.

All in All the FFB fets better and better with every update... Im just tiered of having to Guess whats been changed when SMS can simply State what has Changed and we can Make simple Changes to compensate... Its easy to lose your way and Feel constantly Guessing with all the changes that have been made.

Question Has anything Changed with the T300 or Logitec wheels and the GM FFB or is it just the Fanatec wheels??? I only tested PS4... I have Not turned on the XB1 Pcars in a long while.

No changes with the t300. Since the last update its been pretty easy to finally get good ffb.

Haiden
17-03-2016, 18:34
Question Has anything Changed with the T300 or Logitec wheels and the GM FFB or is it just the Fanatec wheels??? I only tested PS4... I have Not turned on the XB1 Pcars in a long while.


No changes with the t300. Since the last update its been pretty easy to finally get good ffb.

IIRC, the GM FFB override is only a Fanatec/PS4 and PC issue. The wheel FF doesn't override the GM FFB with Fanatec/Xb1. The T300s and Logis don't have @wheel controls, so there's nothing to override the GM FFB, unless you're playing on PC and have a driver control panel.

morpwr
17-03-2016, 20:27
Haiden is your gain really at 1.45?

GrimeyDog
17-03-2016, 21:12
GrimeyDog 9.0 v# RAC 0.75Fanatec CSW v2 PS4

***Note i Drive in Car View with Camera Shake on at Default Setting...The Camera Shake and Wheel FFB Syncs Nicely...I suggest turning Camera Shake on so what you see is in Sync with what you feel in the wheel.***
On Wheel Settings Sen Auto, FFB 75 , Sho 100, ABS Off, Lin Off , Dea Off, Dri Off, FOR 100, Spr 100, Dpr 100, (CSP V3 pedals only BrF 30 or to your taste)

Set Pedal sen and Dead Zones to taste... I use

Sat 50%

Dead Zones 0%
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Speed Sensitivity 0
Controller filtering sensitivity 0
Damper saturation 0
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Game master FFB (CSW v2) PS4 * 100 * (take Note that GM FFB is subject to change and Need readjustment per Pcars update)
(With 9.0 GM FFB has No Effect... set GM FFB 100 and forget it until further Notice)
RPM Gear Display Yes
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Controller input 3
Advanced Off= Steering Feels more Linear, Center of Wheel Feels Calmer.
Advanced On= Wheel Center is Not Linear, More Road/Bump/Curb feel in Wheel Center, Wheel can Feel Twitchy.
Soft Steering Damping On
Visual Wheel Filtering On
Opposite Lock Help Off

*** Global FFB ***

Tire Force 100
Per Wheel Movement 0.00
per wheel Squared 0.00
Wheel position Smoothing 0.00
Dead zone removal range 0.00
Dead zone Removal fall Off Move full Left then *** 5 *** Clicks Right
----------------------------------------------------------------
Linkage Scale 0.00
Linkage Stiffness 1.00 ( i just leave it there the range is 0 so it has No Effect just leave it )
Linkage damping 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Relative Adjust Gain 1.00

Relative adjust Bleed 0.08

RAC 0.75
----------------------------------------------------------------
Scoop Knee 0.72

Scoop Reduction 0.14
----------------------------------------------------------------
Soft Clipping(Half input) 0.00
Soft Clipping(full output) 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Menu Spring 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation 1.00
Steering gain 1.00
----------------------------------------------------------------

Master Scale 100

FX 10.00 FWD cars 30.00

FY 30.00 Road Feel + or - FWD cars 50.00

FZ 60.00 Curb Feel + or - *to taste*

Mz 50.00 + or - Formula "A" 10.00 ... will vary for different Class Formula cars ...start at 50 Reduce until feel is right for you or 0% oscillation

Arm Angle 1500 or whatever it is Stock as per car

Sop Master Scale 100 ***Can also be set to 0.00 if you prefer No SoP feel*** FWD cars 0.00

SoP Lat 10.0 Lateral Weight Transfer + or -

SoP Diff 60.0 Vertical/ Lateral Weight Transfer + or -

SoP Damp 0.0 0

Haiden
17-03-2016, 23:15
Haiden is your gain really at 1.45?

I was running that when I first started using Jack's settings (that's what he's got it set to), but I've since lowered it to 1.20 or 1.25 (I can't remember right now). But Jack's settings are based on the CSW-v2, with @wheel controls, and the @wheel Spring is set to 50, instead the default 100. The SG=1.45 felt fine when I had set @wheel Dri=3. But after switching to the new method for drag removal that Jack posted, SG=1.45 was a little heavy for my tastes, so I reduced it. But I still run @wheel Spr=50. I've tried it at 100, but it's still too heavy for my liking.

IMO, lowering the Spr at the wheel is different than lower the in game FF, TF, SG, or Master Scale. The Spr isn't the same as the @wheel FF either. It reduces strength/weight in a different way. To me, it feels like a milder reduction in weight that's a little more focused on the higher, peak end of the scale, instead of attenuating the entire spectrum. @wheel FF should be functioning as a benign external attenuator, as well. But the FF override bug/glitch or whatever it is, doesn't allow it to be used as such. The general rule of thumb that I learned and follow is, whenever possible, tune the FFB in-game to the highest level you can while maintaining max fidelity, then when it comes to simple, pure strength reduction, do that externally (@wheel or driver control panel). Again, whenever possible. If you don't have external attenuation, then you have to tune fidelity and strength in-game, which means the game output may have good fidelity, but it may not be the highest level clean/clear signal that the game is capable of producing. Does that matter? I don't know. It just makes sense to me and has delivered good results, so I follow the rule. :) But I do know that reducing @wheel Spr is different from reducing game FF, TF, or SG.

GrimeyDog
18-03-2016, 00:31
https://youtu.be/BaVifpVDgyo
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVifpVDgyo)

9.0 Re Tweek ....Formula A 0% oscillation:yes:
Much lighter wheel weight, calmer less Harsh FFB Effects But same detailed road feel.

Sloppy Lap in the dark... Ran at night so the FFB Graph will show better... I didn't know the FA car Has No Head lights:D

tennenbaum
18-03-2016, 05:57
GrimeyDog 9.0 v# RAC 0.75Fanatec CSW v2 PS4

***Note i Drive in Car View with Camera Shake on at Default Setting...The Camera Shake and Wheel FFB Syncs Nicely...I suggest turning Camera Shake on so what you see is in Sync with what you feel in the wheel.*p**
On Wheel Settings Sen Auto, FFB 75 , Sho 100, ABS Off, Lin Off , Dea Off, Dri Off, FOR 100, Spr 100, Dpr 100, (CSP V3 pedals only BrF 30 or to your taste)

Set Pedal sen and Dead Zones to taste... I use

Sat 50%

Dead Zones 0%
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Speed Sensitivity 0
Controller filtering sensitivity 0
Damper saturation 0
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Game master FFB (CSW v2) PS4 * 100 * (take Note that GM FFB is subject to change and Need readjustment per Pcars update)
(With 9.0 GM FFB has No Effect... set GM FFB 100 and forget it until further Notice)
RPM Gear Display Yes
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Controller input 3
Advanced Off= Steering Feels more Linear, Center of Wheel Feels Calmer.
Advanced On= Wheel Center is Not Linear, More Road/Bump/Curb feel in Wheel Center, Wheel can Feel Twitchy.
Soft Steering Damping On
Visual Wheel Filtering On
Opposite Lock Help Off

*** Global FFB ***

Tire Force 100
Per Wheel Movement 0.00
per wheel Squared 0.00
Wheel position Smoothing 0.00
Dead zone removal range 0.00
Dead zone Removal fall Off Move full Left then *** 5 *** Clicks Right
----------------------------------------------------------------
Linkage Scale 0.00
Linkage Stiffness 1.00 ( i just leave it there the range is 0 so it has No Effect just leave it )
Linkage damping 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Relative Adjust Gain 1.00

Relative adjust Bleed 0.08

RAC 0.75
----------------------------------------------------------------
Scoop Knee 0.72

Scoop Reduction 0.14
----------------------------------------------------------------
Soft Clipping(Half input) 0.00
Soft Clipping(full output) 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Menu Spring 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation 1.00
Steering gain 1.00
----------------------------------------------------------------

Master Scale 100

FX 10.00 FWD cars 30.00

FY 30.00 Road Feel + or - FWD cars 50.00

FZ 60.00 Curb Feel + or - *to taste*

Mz 50.00 + or - Formula "A" 10.00 ... will vary for different Class Formula cars ...start at 50 Reduce until feel is right for you or 0% oscillation

Arm Angle 1500 or whatever it is Stock as per car

Sop Master Scale 100 ***Can also be set to 0.00 if you prefer No SoP feel*** FWD cars 0.00

SoP Lat 10.0 Lateral Weight Transfer + or -

SoP Diff 60.0 Vertical/ Lateral Weight Transfer + or -

SoP Damp 0.0 0

your latest settings look very promising. better balance of power and fidelity is a good description... i'd expect you can even polish your watkin glen ruf time a bit more with this setting. what's your steering sensitivity?

Koza_Nostra
18-03-2016, 08:31
Glad you like it! Interesting to know that they are still "valid" in the Xbox. I think GrimeyDog once said that on Xbox the FFB is stronger than on PC or PS4. My settings are the best I could get so far for a stronger feel not overblowing the limits.

Yes mate, the settings seem to transfer well to TX on Xbox. All I did was changed TF to 100 and GM FFB to 60. My lap times were actually a little bit slower to start with, but then I got used to it and it was about the same. I find with your settings I have more feel at the beginning of the turn, I can be more precise hitting the apex and also easier to catch the car if things go wrong.

GrimeyDog
18-03-2016, 09:35
your latest settings look very promising. better balance of power and fidelity is a good description... i'd expect you can even polish your watkin glen ruf time a bit more with this setting. what's your steering sensitivity?

Steering sensitivity is stock... I believe thats 50....i set the wheel to Auto so game set DOR.

Cant wait to Read your Review of these latest settings....All the same feel is there just Much Lighter wheel weight and Less Harsh Curb and FFB forces.... But i can still Feel the Paint on Watkins and Feel the Tires Scrubbing for Grip as i Push through the Bus stop and into the Right hand sweeper turn.

Tracks like Donnington Gp the Quick Left Right that leads to the Horse shoe turn before the finish im already .500 up on my times because of the lighter wheel:D Now Running 1:27.6xx with a stock
Gt3 Ruf... yeah i know... I just love that car!!!

Think im going to give the FFB 1 last Huraaah!!! to perfect it once 10.0 drops.... Im very curiose to see if anything Changes with how the GM FFB is working....Was it Negated on purpose or is it a Glitch??? It seems much easier to find a Good Balance of Power and Fidelity using just the RAC and on wheel FFB.

GrimeyDog
18-03-2016, 09:41
Yes mate, the settings seem to transfer well to TX on Xbox. All I did was changed TF to 100 and GM FFB to 60. My lap times were actually a little bit slower to start with, but then I got used to it and it was about the same. I find with your settings I have more feel at the beginning of the turn, I can be more precise hitting the apex and also easier to catch the car if things go wrong.

The XB1 FFB was Much Stronger than the PS4!!! i havent tried it with 9.0 yet.

morpwr
18-03-2016, 10:09
I was running that when I first started using Jack's settings (that's what he's got it set to), but I've since lowered it to 1.20 or 1.25 (I can't remember right now). But Jack's settings are based on the CSW-v2, with @wheel controls, and the @wheel Spring is set to 50, instead the default 100. The SG=1.45 felt fine when I had set @wheel Dri=3. But after switching to the new method for drag removal that Jack posted, SG=1.45 was a little heavy for my tastes, so I reduced it. But I still run @wheel Spr=50. I've tried it at 100, but it's still too heavy for my liking.

IMO, lowering the Spr at the wheel is different than lower the in game FF, TF, SG, or Master Scale. The Spr isn't the same as the @wheel FF either. It reduces strength/weight in a different way. To me, it feels like a milder reduction in weight that's a little more focused on the higher, peak end of the scale, instead of attenuating the entire spectrum. @wheel FF should be functioning as a benign external attenuator, as well. But the FF override bug/glitch or whatever it is, doesn't allow it to be used as such. The general rule of thumb that I learned and follow is, whenever possible, tune the FFB in-game to the highest level you can while maintaining max fidelity, then when it comes to simple, pure strength reduction, do that externally (@wheel or driver control panel). Again, whenever possible. If you don't have external attenuation, then you have to tune fidelity and strength in-game, which means the game output may have good fidelity, but it may not be the highest level clean/clear signal that the game is capable of producing. Does that matter? I don't know. It just makes sense to me and has delivered good results, so I follow the rule. :) But I do know that reducing @wheel Spr is different from reducing game FF, TF, or SG.

I only asked because your settings look really similar to mine and I know with gain at 1.22 it was clipping quite a bit still using jacks settings. Its not real obvious at first until you start turning the gain down and watch the waveforms in the hud. The game doesn't only show a flat line when clipping. The waveforms with the rough tops are clipped too just earlier in the chain I think. Tennebaum could probably clarify that one but I'm pretty sure that's the case. I know turning it down from 1.25 feels worse at first but it is clearer lower you just need to compensate with the ffb master. I was actually at 1.25 for quite a while before I caught it. Just a thought.

Haiden
18-03-2016, 13:37
I only asked because your settings look really similar to mine and I know with gain at 1.22 it was clipping quite a bit still using jacks settings. Its not real obvious at first until you start turning the gain down and watch the waveforms in the hud. The game doesn't only show a flat line when clipping. The waveforms with the rough tops are clipped too just earlier in the chain I think. Tennebaum could probably clarify that one but I'm pretty sure that's the case. I know turning it down from 1.25 feels worse at first but it is clearer lower you just need to compensate with the ffb master. I was actually at 1.25 for quite a while before I caught it. Just a thought.

It's not clipping. That's why I lowered it from Jack's settings. I couldn't be totally sure, but was feeling it a bit. That stopped when I got around 1.35, but I just like 1.25. The wave forms in my telemetry don't have any rough tops. They look pretty much the same as they do when I run SG=1.00, just not as high. We're using different wheels, though. And, like I mentioned, I've cut my Spring to 50. You're also looking at my old settings. :)

Edit: I'll test it again, though. I had SG=1.10 for a while. It was okay, but I was able to boost it after lowering FF and TF a bit. That added a little more weight to wheel, but the telemetry didn't change much. I admit, though... I know there's other clipping than flat line clipping and know the sign I look for--in telemetry and the wheel--but I never really know what other people mean when they use their terms. Like "waveforms with the rough tops..." I don't know what you mean by rough tops. My peaks are clean and don't reach the top of the box. The waves, what I consider snaking curve slopes are fairly smooth, unless the tires scrub.

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 07:47
I only asked because your settings look really similar to mine and I know with gain at 1.22 it was clipping quite a bit still using jacks settings. Its not real obvious at first until you start turning the gain down and watch the waveforms in the hud. The game doesn't only show a flat line when clipping. The waveforms with the rough tops are clipped too just earlier in the chain I think. Tennebaum could probably clarify that one but I'm pretty sure that's the case. I know turning it down from 1.25 feels worse at first but it is clearer lower you just need to compensate with the ffb master. I was actually at 1.25 for quite a while before I caught it. Just a thought.

Most settings (JS' values as well) lift the i/o curve quite a lot into the soft limiting area of RAC leading to what's called compression (over all to the signal) with stronger forces saturating (little to no differentiation), while lower forces scale higher. Speaking in general.

It's a reasonable method (similar to audio "loudness") to provide road feel and a certain basic weight to the wheel (comparable in wide sense to spring rate) that most players expect and wish. At the same time it comes with less differentiation - and often on top of it with a loss of dynamic range the lower RAC is set. The nature and interaction of clipping, saturation and compression and difficult to judge without looking at the entire signal chain.

Just because the signal is not clipping doesn't mean everything is "ok". A lot of settings have a strong saturation (high tire forces in the "invisible headroom" that get soft limited quite drastically with RAC and/or SC) which leads to a loss of differentiation. Often the saturation gets masked by the spikes giving the impression that the wheel is not saturated, while it actually is. Spikes give you road feel and vividness but not necessarily steering precision...

However, since most don't like a "loose", light, lifeless wheel on straights and at low steering angles lifting the entire signal is the only cure... though with the disadvantage of bending the stronger forces to an almost flat line (= wheel saturation).

Aiming for a linear I/O response with the help of scoop is not a bad thing, on the other hand it becomes a bit questionable when you bend the input forces that are in the range of 70 - 100 % (30) to a very narrow output corridor (5) with RAC, thus scaling forces with a ratio of approx. 6:1.

Gain 1.22 or 1.45 with JS's settings?
I think JS does a bit of a hardware-caused compression on the wheel side with gain at 1.45. Because with his RAC set at something around 0.82 - 0.92 multiplied with SG 1.45 results to a value higher than 1.00. While SG values around 1.2 pull the signal out of the clipping zone. Still - of course - you have spikes that go higher than 1.00. (Which doesn't seem to be a problem.)

I don't fully understand why JS is using SG to lift up to the signal. I would rather use the settings in the chain before the SG stage to level the signal to an 100%, while keeping SG at 1.00. I assume JS uses SG like a last volume knob because it looks more logical on first sight and makes it simpler for people to adjust the over all strength without altering his "perfect" balance.

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 11:01
The best (and only) way to see how much of signal is really in the clipping or saturation zone is to keep all values as provided (as e.g. from JS) but setting RAC to 2.00 and looking at the result in the telemetry HUD. If you also uses SCHI and SCFO on top of it, turn these off too, and check on the result in the HUD. You'll be surprised ho much strong compression (=saturation) RAC (and/or SC) usually does. Then (keeping RAC at 2.00 and SC turned off) lower the signal with the help of SG the signal until you see all slow signals ("snake") within the 0.0 - 1.0 range without clipping, or - also very interesting - even the spikes will be kept =< 1.00. The amount of how much you lowered SG to achieve so you can see how much was in the clipping/saturation zone before. The zone that you get little to no differentiation...

poirqc
19-03-2016, 12:54
The best (and only) way to see how much of signal is really in the clipping or saturation zone is to keep all values as provided (as e.g. from JS) but setting RAC to 2.00 and looking at the result in the telemetry HUD. If you also uses SCHI and SCFO on top of it, turn these off too, and check on the result in the HUD. You'll be surprised ho much strong compression (=saturation) RAC (and/or SC) usually does. Then (keeping RAC at 2.00 and SC turned off) lower the signal with the help of SG the signal until you see all slow signals ("snake") within the 0.0 - 1.0 range without clipping, or - also very interesting - even the spikes will be kept =< 1.00. The amount of how much you lowered SG to achieve so you can see how much was in the clipping/saturation zone before. The zone that you get little to no differentiation...

I recently started to play pCars again. I took a different approach to tuning this time. It's far from over.

Steps:

Took JS Classic #1 file. Set TF at 75 like suggested. I guess that his Car FFB balance was build around TF at 75.

The other night, i disabled everthing in globals and added tools one by one to fix driving(FFB) behaviors. I won't re-explain every tools. Most of you understand how they work.

The new thing i tried was focusing Scoops against the "Snake Force"™. I took a screenshot of the telemetry, while i was in a long bend, under load. I wanted to know how strong the FFB was when i was close to max lateral grip. I wanted, with the help of Scoops, to have the best differenciation, around that force. I saw that i was between 25 and 50% FFB. I then tuned Scoops accordinly. It worked well, to an extent.

Afterwards, i set the SoP Scale to 0 in every car(Thank god for notepad++). Since the combined Car FFB was a bit less(1 less source of input), i was able to use just a small dose of Steering Gain, to get back some overall forces.



For now, i can say the following: The steering rack simulation of pCars is amazing! You can see Jack Spade know his stuff! His FxyzMz balance is awesome. It's seems that i never really could set globals to be able to feel understeer to a level i want, when SoP is added to the mix.

Throwing that RuF yellowbird is really fun! :D

Cheers!

morpwr
19-03-2016, 13:18
Most settings (JS' values as well) lift the i/o curve quite a lot into the soft limiting area of RAC leading to what's called compression (over all to the signal) with stronger forces saturating (little to no differentiation), while lower forces scale higher. Speaking in general.

It's a reasonable method (similar to audio "loudness") to provide road feel and a certain basic weight to the wheel (comparable in wide sense to spring rate) that most players expect and wish. At the same time it comes with less differentiation - and often on top of it with a loss of dynamic range the lower RAC is set. The nature of clipping, saturation and compression is complex and hard to judge in a isolated view. You have to look at the entire signal chain.

Following this and other threads for a while by now, i had the feeling that sometimes it's not fully understood that just because the signal is not clipping doesn't mean everything is "ok". I see a lot of setting that have such a strong saturation (high tire forces in the "invisible headroom" that get soft limited drastically with RAC and/or SC) that there is not much differentiation any more. Often people are not aware of because they get mislead by the spikes giving them the impression that the wheel is not saturated, while it actually is. Spikes give you road feel and vividness but not necessarily steering precision...

However, since most people don't like a "loose", light, lifeless wheel on straights and at low steering angles, or while little tire forces are at work, lifting the entire signal is the only cure... It comes with the prize of bowing/bending the stronger forces almost to a flat line (saturation) but so what. It doesn't matter if it feels good for the user. Though, unfortunately it keeps most people away to even know how different the feeling can be when you keep the I/O curve more linear - and finally get used to it.

Funny enough that people are so concerned about a linear I/O response while at the same time they are bending the curve with RAC often pretty radically. Don't get me wrong, the approach to make the I/O as linear as possible before shaping I/O individually makes a lot of sense, I just wonder if most people are aware of what really happens within the entire chain of signals. Seeing how strongly most settings bend the input forces within the range of 70 - 100 % (30) to a very narrow output corridor (5), therefore a scaling of approx. 6:1 at an absolute output height defined and caused by RAC gives me reason to doubt it.

Gain 1.22 or 1.45 with JS's settings? In one of my older posts I guessed already that JS does a bit of hardware-caused compression on the wheel side with gain at 1.45 (with some wheels). Because with his RAC set at something around 0.82 - 0.92 (i don't remember) multiplied with SG 1.45 you definitely get a value higher than 1.00. While values around 1.2 lead the signal for sure more out of the clipping zone. Still - of course - you have spikes that go higher than 1.00. Though I believe spikes can be tolerated, since i had the feeling they get kind of shaved off by the wheel without creating to many artefacts anyway.

Personally I don't fully understand why JS is using SG to lift up to the signal anyway. Instead I would rather use the settings in the chain before to reach the top (set he sets with SG) while keeping SG to 1.00. I assume he does so, because the way he uses SG like a last volume knob looks more logical on first sight and makes it simpler for people to adjust the over all strength without altering his "perfect" balance that he created with his settings at an earlier stage. Given the assumption that there is no signal to noise issue and that the quantization is high enough the re-scaling (expanding) with SG shouldn't cause any flaws. I'd be really interested to know why JS does it this way. I think everything he does is done due to a good reason, he just realized how time consuming it is to explain it...

Generally speaking during the last couple of weeks i'm under the impression that there is a trend towards less saturation and more differentiation. I see more and more settings that give up the idea that only a heavy wheel is a good wheel.

Actually his reasoning for doing it that way was simple. He said somewhere raising tf above 75 caused clipping early in the signal chain. Its easy enough to test set tf to 100 and watch the hud. Youll start seeing those little hickups in the waveforms and weird tops on the waveforms. Switch tf back to 75 and they go away. I tried this when he came out with these and its pretty obvious if youre paying attention to why he did it. Cleaner signal cleaner ffb with better differentiation between the forces. That was what I thought too with some clipping on stronger forces that aren't really important but what I found was you get some of the signals you want into the clipping range with them. Not flat line obvious clipping but the at the top of the hud with rough tops on them. I'm assuming this becomes added unwanted wheel weight(saturation) instead of an actual usefull force. This is why I said its better to start low with gain and work up . Most of us have started high and worked lower which doesn't give you a chance to see or feel when things are going wrong.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 13:38
[QUOTE=poirqc;1253823]I recently started to play pCars again. I took a different approach to tuning this time. It's far from over.

Steps:

Took JS Classic #1 file. Set TF at 75 like suggested. I guess that his Car FFB balance was build around TF at 75.

The other night, i disabled everthing in globals and added tools one by one to fix driving(FFB) behaviors. I won't re-explain every tools. Most of you understand how they work.

The new thing i tried was focusing Scoops against the "Snake Force"™. I took a screenshot of the telemetry, while i was in a long bend, under load. I wanted to know how strong the FFB was when i was close to max lateral grip. I wanted, with the help of Scoops, to have the best differenciation, around that force. I saw that i was between 25 and 50% FFB. I then tuned Scoops accordinly. It worked well, to an extent.

Afterwards, i set the SoP Scale to 0 in every car(Thank god for notepad++). Since the combined Car FFB was a bit less(1 less source of input), i was able to use just a small dose of Steering Gain, to get back some overall forces.



For now, i can say the following: The steering rack simulation of pCars is amazing! You can see Jack Spade know his stuff! His FxyzMz balance is awesome. It's seems that i never really could set globals to be able to feel understeer to a level i want, when SoP is added to the mix.

Throwing that RuF yellowbird is really fun! :D

Cheers![/QUO

If you get the wheel settings right you can see why he went with the approach he did for his settings.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 14:04
I got the 599 wheel yesterday and its amazing how much of a difference 1 inch makes in the wheel diameter. I could do without the Ferrari logo but a really nice wheel overall. The thing that really surprised me was how much feel you get trough it even though supposedly its the exact same weight as the stock wheel. Maybe from the extra leverage? I wasn't sure with the price but id highly recommend it if youre looking for a wheel for your thrustmaster base.

poirqc
19-03-2016, 14:53
If you get the wheel settings right you can see why he went with the approach he did for his settings.

You mean, with SoP included?

They are good, indeed! The only thing i couldn't dial was the understeer feeling. Besides understeering, i don't have anything bad to say. Everything is great!

GrimeyDog
19-03-2016, 15:30
There are just sooo many ways to come up with settings that have same, similar Good feel.... It seems just to be a matter of how your brain is wired which part of the FFB system you choose to use to bring out FFB feel....i can never wrap my mind around settings where some settings are 100+ and other settings are very Low:confused: that just seems out of balance in my Head.... For Me i set No setting above 100...its all about balancing the different parts of the FFB system to work together.

Tennenbaum IMO i see No Loss of Dynamic Range when RAC is reduced....the power level of FFB forces are reduced but the content of the FFB signal is the same just at a lower volume... JMT

Haiden
19-03-2016, 15:46
I got the 599 wheel yesterday and its amazing how much of a difference 1 inch makes in the wheel diameter. I could do without the Ferrari logo but a really nice wheel overall. The thing that really surprised me was how much feel you get trough it even though supposedly its the exact same weight as the stock wheel. Maybe from the extra leverage? I wasn't sure with the price but id highly recommend it if youre looking for a wheel for your thrustmaster base.

I almost got the Fanatec BMW Rim, but I hated that logo. If I had got it, I was planning to pop the logo off and glue some other custom emblem there, even thought about going to one of those trinket engraving shops and have a circular plate made with the Fanatec logo. I ended up getting the universal hub and GT rim instead. I get the whole branding thing, but I wish they didn't do it. It'd be fine if I was driving a BMW simulator, but I'm driving other cars, too. :)

F1ngers
19-03-2016, 16:10
I got the 599 wheel yesterday and its amazing how much of a difference 1 inch makes in the wheel diameter. I could do without the Ferrari logo but a really nice wheel overall. The thing that really surprised me was how much feel you get trough it even though supposedly its the exact same weight as the stock wheel. Maybe from the extra leverage? I wasn't sure with the price but id highly recommend it if youre looking for a wheel for your thrustmaster base.

Hi morpwr, I also brought the wheel and like you said love the extra size and feel. In regards to the centre logo I just popped the PS one out from the original wheel and swapped them over, I also printed some labels for the buttons to match up with the PS4 ones. 230103
Hope this helps 😀

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 17:00
"Snake Force"™ by poirqc!

love it.

poirqc
19-03-2016, 17:07
"Snake Force"™ by poirqc!

love it.

It sounds like a cheap action movie from the 80s! :D

Before The Expandables hit the movie theaters, we joked and said they should make a movie with Arnold, Sylvester and Chuck. It would be called, The bet :D

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 17:09
I got the 599 wheel yesterday and its amazing how much of a difference 1 inch makes in the wheel diameter. I could do without the Ferrari logo but a really nice wheel overall. The thing that really surprised me was how much feel you get trough it even though supposedly its the exact same weight as the stock wheel. Maybe from the extra leverage? I wasn't sure with the price but id highly recommend it if youre looking for a wheel for your thrustmaster base.

I think thats exactly what i need: A wheel witch a larger diameter. Then I could lift up my FFB and so use the full potential / strength of my t300, instead of giving up a lot of dynamic range on the wheel side (due to the fact that i like a less strong FFB, therefore having GM FFB usually not higher than 45...) That makes so much sense!! It will give me so much more detail, without getting a heavier wheel. Sometimes it's the most simple things you overlook. Great proof of how valuable such a forum and particularly this thread is :D:D poirqc comes up with a trademark... ;-), morpwr with a great hint...:cool:

GrimeyDog
19-03-2016, 17:23
Sitting Here watching the 12 hours of Seabring Really Enjoying My Self:D

Since My Re Tweek i have learned a Few New Tricks... Very interesting because of the Lower RAC setting i had to Lower the RAB!!! High RAB was Not Needed due to the Decreased FFB Forces....this Led Me to Re work the Scoop Settings to better Bring out the FFB Road Feel Forces... Because of these Lower sertings i find that i can use Much Lower "Mz"(50) and still have the same Good Road Feel as "Mz" 100 without the Heavy Wheel!!! I am Very Pleased with the Re Tweek... I think this is My Best Feel in a Long Time... i seemed to have Lost My feel and way with all of the updates...My Tweek had become Very Over powered some where along the Update path but because the Road Feel was Still Very Good i had Not Noticed How Heavy the Wheel had actually become:mad:... I just compensated by Cranking out More arm Power to deal with the Heavier wheel... SMH:p seems im back on Track and very Happy with this latest tweek work:D

Testing cars Having a Blast Driving the Clio Cup!!!

Edit: Even with the Lower RAC setting Piwerful detailed forces can still be felt but Seems That the More subtle Forces can be felt even Clearer than before... also the Lower RAC settings keep me far below the Clipping Zone:yes:

Now all i have t do is get used to the Lighter more Responsive wheel again... But i can allready see improvement in lap times on tracks with Quick Chicane Turns.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 17:28
You mean, with SoP included?

They are good, indeed! The only thing i couldn't dial was the understeer feeling. Besides understeering, i don't have anything bad to say. Everything is great!

Yes with sop like in classic but I don't like any of them that use lat settings. The lat settings just always seem odd to me.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 17:40
I think thats exactly what i need: A wheel witch a larger diameter. Then I could lift up my FFB and so use the full potential / strength of my t300, instead of giving up a lot of dynamic range on the wheel side (due to the fact that i like a less strong FFB, therefore having GM FFB usually not higher than 45...) That makes so much sense!! It will give me so much more detail, without getting a heavier wheel. Sometimes it's the most simple things you overlook. Great proof of how valuable such a forum and particularly this thread is :D:D poirqc comes up with a trademark... ;-), morpwr with a great hint...:cool:

Youll really like it! I should have realized this right away from building real cars. Too small of a wheel makes it heavy and twitchy. You really notice the difference in the corners between the two wheels. Being smooth is much easier with it. Id love to try a full size wheel on a dd setup! Hopefully someday somebody will come out with a console version.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 17:49
I almost got the Fanatec BMW Rim, but I hated that logo. If I had got it, I was planning to pop the logo off and glue some other custom emblem there, even thought about going to one of those trinket engraving shops and have a circular plate made with the Fanatec logo. I ended up getting the universal hub and GT rim instead. I get the whole branding thing, but I wish they didn't do it. It'd be fine if I was driving a BMW simulator, but I'm driving other cars, too. :)

Yeah the more I look at it the more it bothers me. It just looks really cheap. I get they probably had to do it to be able to use the same material but it just looks to me like something youd see in a smart car not a Ferrari. Project for later.lol

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 17:53
There are just sooo many ways to come up with settings that have same, similar Good feel.... It seems just to be a matter of how your brain is wired which part of the FFB system you choose to use to bring out FFB feel....i can never wrap my mind around settings where some settings are 100+ and other settings are very Low:confused: that just seems out of balance in my Head.... For Me i set No setting above 100...its all about balancing the different parts of the FFB system to work together.

Tennenbaum IMO i see No Loss of Dynamic Range when RAC is reduced....the power level of FFB forces are reduced but the content of the FFB signal is the same just at a lower volume... JMT

This one is a tricky one! ;-) We circled around this topic before when i emphasized the difference between Snake Line (now Snake Force Ū ;-) being responsible IMO for steering precision and the spikes being responsible for vividness, roadfeel, curbs, etc...

It's not easy to test or even proof my statement practically. Because the only way to do is to lift up RAC again to 0.92 or similar (0.08 headroom for the spikes left) while lowering GM FFB until you have the feeling that you got the same wheel weight again (as you head before lifting RAC). So the wheel weight is the same again, but within the corridor of zero weight and full weight the differentiation should be more detailed. It won't make a huge difference, but doing the math (if we wanna do so ! ;-) we should gain about (0,92 - 0.75) / 0.92 = approx. 18% more details, since you get approx. 0.17 absolute amount of the signal "out" of the saturation zone caused by RAC.

In your case it's even more difficult to feel these 18% more differentiation, because your FFB mix contains quite a lot Fz and SoP diff forces which create a relatively high amount of spikes. Since you got a lot of spikes they actually sum up to some extra weight on top of the weight that comes from the Snake Force. Hhm, i think at this point it becomes obvious how thin the line becomes between theory and practice...

I remember the times long ago when i was sound engineer. Every time we came to end of a mixing session we reached a point when we simply couldn't judge any more if a certain tweak or change of a signal made it sound better or worse. The nuances got so fine that at the end we believed more in what we thought we should hear as what we actually heard...placebo...;) I'm bringing that up because we face the paradox that when we talk passionately about our FFB findings and approaches, we have to develop some ambitiousness to take a closer look, otherwise all the progression with all the know how here collected in this thread wouldn't have happened... At the same time we stand with one foot in the area of ufology...:D

GrimeyDog
19-03-2016, 18:01
I think thats exactly what i need: A wheel witch a larger diameter. Then I could lift up my FFB and so use the full potential / strength of my t300, instead of giving up a lot of dynamic range on the wheel side (due to the fact that i like a less strong FFB, therefore having GM FFB usually not higher than 45...) That makes so much sense!! It will give me so much more detail, without getting a heavier wheel. Sometimes it's the most simple things you overlook. Great proof of how valuable such a forum and particularly this thread is :D:D poirqc comes up with a trademark... ;-), morpwr with a great hint...:cool:

The Larger wheel Rim Size Makes a Huge Difference!!! My TX feels like a Toy compaured to the V2 or even the CSR Elite!!! That Small Rim was always something I Hated about the TX Wheel... If the Rim would have been Larger i may Not Have bought a V2... The FFB feels about the same but Different.. I think the Wheel FW plays a big part in FFB Feel also... TM may have a slight edge when it comes to FW... that Maybe because the TM wheel are Natively Suppoerted by Most systems.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 18:04
I don't know about you guys but there is nothing ive come across like this game. Had a race with the rocket bunny last night on a track I'm not that familiar with just for something different. Started near the rear and worked my way into the top 10 by about midway through the race. Ended up chasing the first place car with 3 laps left. Race came down to needing one more corner to catch first. I just didn't have enough but it was awesome coming in second! That's one of the things I really like about this game the ai aren't always predictable. Some cars you can get right by some cars will fight you and some will try to punt you just like real life. Took me 3 laps to get by the one car because he did punt me when I tried to make the pass and cost me 5 positions. But I returned the favor when I caught him again.lol I cant wait to see what pc2 brings!

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 18:08
Sitting Here watching the 12 hours of Seabring Really Enjoying My Self:D

Since My Re Tweek i have learned a Few New Tricks... Very interesting because of the Lower RAC setting i had to Lower the RAB!!! High RAB was Not Needed due to the Decreased FFB Forces....this Led Me to Re work the Scoop Settings to better Bring out the FFB Road Feel Forces... Because of these Lower sertings i find that i can use Much Lower "Mz"(50) and still have the same Good Road Feel as "Mz" 100 without the Heavy Wheel!!! I am Very Pleased with the Re Tweek... I think this is My Best Feel in a Long Time... i seemed to have Lost My feel and way with all of the updates...My Tweek had become Very Over powered some where along the Update path but because the Road Feel was Still Very Good i had Not Noticed How Heavy the Wheel had actually become:mad:... I just compensated by Cranking out More arm Power to deal with the Heavier wheel... SMH:p seems im back on Track and very Happy with this latest tweek work:D

Testing cars Having a Blast Driving the Clio Cup!!!

Edit: Even with the Lower RAC setting Piwerful detailed forces can still be felt but Seems That the More subtle Forces can be felt even Clearer than before... also the Lower RAC settings keep me far below the Clipping Zone:yes:

Now all i have t do is get used to the Lighter more Responsive wheel again... But i can allready see improvement in lap times on tracks with Quick Chicane Turns.

I like your testings and settings (!) a lot! That's why I'm sure you won't get it the wrong way, when i say that i was always stunned about your strong wheel. You know i always liked it and did good lap times with it and found it highly vivid, though i wondered how can Grimey do so many laps without his arms falling off :D (Now it's still strong, but more accentuated in my eyes.)

tennenbaum
19-03-2016, 18:11
I don't know about you guys but there is nothing ive come across like this game. Had a race with the rocket bunny last night on a track I'm not that familiar with just for something different. Started near the rear and worked my way into the top 10 by about midway through the race. Ended up chasing the first place car with 3 laps left. Race came down to needing one more corner to catch first. I just didn't have enough but it was awesome coming in second! That's one of the things I really like about this game the ai aren't always predictable. Some cars you can get right by some cars will fight you and some will try to punt you just like real life. Took me 3 laps to get by the one car because he did punt me when I tried to make the pass and cost me 5 positions. But I returned the favor when I caught him again.lol I cant wait to see what pc2 brings!

I also find the AI surprisingly good.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 18:29
I'm not familiar with the TM wheel line up. Is there a larger wheel that i can mount effortlessly?

I think the 599 is the biggest they go at 30cm. Going from 28cm to 30 cm doesn't sound like much but its night and day different. I didn't see any options that where any bigger on their site. Id love to see a full size option though not 8/10 scale. One other thing I noticed and I don't know if its a fluke but the paddles are much quieter. The one makes no noise at all which is really nice considering how many times we shift. I always found the clicking annoying.

konnos
19-03-2016, 20:00
I wonder why they re not making 1:1 wheels. 8:10 is so close to actual size, I don't see why they wont do it.

morpwr
19-03-2016, 20:42
I wonder why they re not making 1:1 wheels. 8:10 is so close to actual size, I don't see why they wont do it.

Yeah I don't get that fanatecs are 1:1 so why not thrustmaster? Seeing what going from 28-30mm did 32mm would be great.

GrimeyDog
19-03-2016, 21:06
9.0 FFB Re-tweek FFB graph

Renault megane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSNotQmmzAM

GT3 BMW M3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otB0AHpwC44

both cars same in car FFB settings but very different FFB Graph...

Edit: Note TF 100, RAG 100 with RAC is set to 75 but the FFB Graph will still use 100% of the box under heavy load but no clipping.

Whats your take on the FFB Graphs:confused:

GrimeyDog
19-03-2016, 21:32
I like your testings and settings (!) a lot! That's why I'm sure you won't get it the wrong way, when i say that i was always stunned about your strong wheel. You know i always liked it and did good lap times with it and found it highly vivid, though i wondered how can Grimey do so many laps without his arms falling off :D (Now it's still strong, but more accentuated in my eyes.)

I'm using on wheel FFB @ 75 and all feels well but at this point I'm torn!!! I can now use on wheel FFB @ 100% and still the wheel weight is very manageable and not over bearing:D The stronger wheel feels better for stability in corners... The added resistence keeps me from over turning only because im
Ive gotten used to heavier wheel weight... The Lighter wheel feels better for adjile manuvering through Chicanes....Think i just need to get used to a lighter wheel its not that much lighter... i think overal the lighter wheel even feels better.... I dunno... LOL

Even though RAC is 75 i feel No Loss of Vivid FFB Effects while having Noticeable reduced wheel weight.
as you said its like listening to music at a low volume VS at a high volume...even though the volume is low the full signal is still there its just not being amplified as much...Yes i too am a Audiophile;)

Theoretically i can see where it could hold true that there would be Dynamic FFB loss due to lower RAC but then Theoretically as long as i have not Reduced the primary source of the forces that all FFB forces should still be present just at a lesser amplified volume... Ex: My in car masters are still set to 100 so the same forces are present just not being boosted as much by a higher RAC setting.... I Now see and use the RAC as the Volume control for the FFB forces.... The Major benefit is the lower RAC keeps you well below the clipping zone.

with other wheels the Re-tweek should work very well also as long as the GM FFB is set accordingly to set the desired at the wheel FFB strength and Wheel weight:yes:

GrimeyDog
20-03-2016, 01:59
Wow!!! What a Race the 12 hours of Seabring was!!!

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 12:44
9.0 FFB Re-tweek FFB graph

Renault megane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSNotQmmzAM

GT3 BMW M3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otB0AHpwC44

both cars same in car FFB settings but very different FFB Graph...

Edit: Note TF 100, RAG 100 with RAC is set to 75 but the FFB Graph will still use 100% of the box under heavy load but no clipping.

Whats your take on the FFB Graphs:confused:

In the graphs you clearly see the RAC at 0.75 in effect. The overall dynamic - including the spikes - is perfect (no clipping at all), though i think you're giving away a bit detail in steering precision. I don't wanna sound like Dr. FFB ;) but i f had to argue it, I'd say: The Watkins uphill right hand corner (picture attached) is the spot on that track that i usually experience the strongest tire force. Which is kind of logic because it's a tight sharp corner with a relatively high speed, and due its uphill shape and character the car is literally pressed on the tarmac, so the tires provide max grip... When i adjust "my" FFB i use this spot to set my signal to 1.00 (max = 100%).

The catch is, as you can see in the telemetry, while you go though that corner most part of the FFB signal results from lateral (holding) forces (exactly as it should be), while road details, shakes, bumps, etc. (=spikes) contribute relatively little to the whole signal. The "main" line (Snake Force) stays pretty stable around 0.75 - 0.80 according to the constant max tire load you get throughout that corner. If you filter the curve you see in your mind by just erasing the spikes, what you see then is a line of the lateral forces actually saturating at 0.75 - 0.80.

Let me stress it bit to make my point clearer: There is an entire range of lateral forces between 0.75 and 1.00 that got compressed to that line of 0.75. In other words: All nuances of input forces that happen between 0.75 and 1.00 are really gone and stapled to one value, which is 0.75. The "deltas" between 0.75 - 1.00 get equalized to 0.75.

Of course if you level your lateral forces (which are imo responsible for steering precision because you wanna feel any detail before grip becomes less) up to 1.00 (by e.g. setting RAC to 0.98 or 1.00) your spikes get lifted into the clipping zone >1.00. And here comes my personal theory or approach into play: I think if the upper half of your spikes get cut of, so what, nothing happens, it won't even effect the vividness of your FFB feeling, because you still got your lower half of the spikes. These "lower" second half of the entire spikes are still remaining and "interrupting your "slower"/"steadier" Snake Line/Force that is now almost at 1.00. Since the Snake Line is still shattered by the fast Fz and SoP diff forces you still have a vivid wheel with road feel.

In this context it's interesting to have a look at your former settings with higher RAC and higher Tire Forces in general: The Snake Line was higher up, close to 1.00 but was heavily intercut/interrupted by the lower half part of the spikes which were stronger too, due the higher tire forces in general. So you actually utilized the effect i described above, by ignoring the upper half of the spikes that of course got cut off, thus lost. But it didn't matter, since your friends the lower half spikes delivered the vividness...

Thats's why IMO you had theoretically more details and dynamic with the relevant steering forces with your older settings. The reason why i think your new settings work better is because with your older setting you had the tireforces (ms = 100, Mz and Fz = 100, plus high TF scaler in the globals) so high that the upper 25 - 50% of your tire force signal (=input) were eaten up by RAC set at 0.98. Therefore you lost at least 25% (0.75 - 1.00) of the original tire forces due to saturation caused by RAC, just then at 1.00 output level. In so far your new setting with lower tire forces are much less bend into the RAC after-knee-saturation-range, thus more detailed and differentiated. That's why i think the new "transparency" make the new setting feel better, even if you're still giving away a bit available headroom of 20-25%.

If you set back RAC to let's say 0.95 but keep the tire forces the same as set in the new setting, and then lowering your GM FFB approx. 25% the weight of the wheel should feel more or less the same, while there should be a nuance of more diffrentaition of the lateral forces, while vividness shouldn't be compromised. (Though I cannot rule that clipped spikes cause digital chatter... Your CSW wheel can surely much better detect such artefacts than my t300.)

Of course: Everything said above is purely theoretical, it's very possible none of my conclusions proof relevant when translated into the practical world with different wheels and many more parameters being in play.

However, since we came a long way, i wouldn't mind at all if practical tests show different results. (And if i find some time, I'll capture the telemetry of that Watkins Glens sharp turn with my settings (which are not better but totally different!) so it get obvious what's the difference between a setting that utilizes saturation compared to a setting that works with no saturation (with the cost of much less vividness especially on straights.)

230141

Haiden
20-03-2016, 14:56
I also find the AI surprisingly good.

Really glad, too. Because it makes me less concerned about the state of MP. I like racing online, but PCars leaves a lot to be desired in that area. But, for me, the available options--cars, tracks, conditions, session options, and incremental AI difficuly--make the single player experience more than enough to keep me occupied until PCars2.


Yeah I don't get that fanatecs are 1:1 so why not thrustmaster? Seeing what going from 28-30mm did 32mm would be great.

Could be hardware. The heavier the rim, the more work it takes for the motor to turn it--starting, catching, and reversing the inertia. Bases like the CSW-v2 are made to work with standard RL rims. This is also one of the main reasons direct drivel wheels beat belt-driven wheels. They have stronger force and quicker change response.

Haiden
20-03-2016, 15:24
I only asked because your settings look really similar to mine and I know with gain at 1.22 it was clipping quite a bit still using jacks settings. Its not real obvious at first until you start turning the gain down and watch the waveforms in the hud. The game doesn't only show a flat line when clipping. The waveforms with the rough tops are clipped too just earlier in the chain I think. Tennebaum could probably clarify that one but I'm pretty sure that's the case. I know turning it down from 1.25 feels worse at first but it is clearer lower you just need to compensate with the ffb master. I was actually at 1.25 for quite a while before I caught it. Just a thought.

I checked it out last night. I'm actually running SG=1.20. But, like I said, I used to run it at 1.25, and remember it being fine, so I tested it out. I got up to SG=1.35, and didn't see any clipping in the telemetry. It's just too heavy for my tastes, and I can't feel the tire slip as well, which I think is due to the saturation. SG=1.20 is my sweet spot. IDK, our difference may be hardware. I'm also running FF/TF = 90/75. And, if I wasn't running @wheel Spring force at 50%, I'd probably lower SG=1.10. Not for clipping reasons, though, just my particular weight preference.

I'm updating my settings page now.

Haiden
20-03-2016, 15:43
Hi Haiden, above you can find your old post with your settings. I'd be glad if you would share the new ones with us. I'm using very similar settings like you or JS proposed. But I'm still undecided if I should stick to DRI 003 in-wheel (or PWM-PWMS) or if I should skip that at all - I think less is maybe more and enjoy it like it is in standard.

I updated the page. :encouragement:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1239906&viewfull=1#post1239906

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 19:10
EDIT: See below. I corrected the picture.

[QUOTE=tennenbaum;1254266]In the graphs you clearly see the RAC at 0.75 in effect. The overall dynamic - including the spikes - is perfect (no clipping at all), though i think you're giving away a bit detail in steering precision. I don't wanna sound like Dr. FFB ;) but i f had to argue it, I'd say: The Watkins uphill right hand corner (picture attached) is the spot on that track that i usually experience the strongest tire force. Which is kind of logic because it's a tight sharp corner with a relatively high speed, and due its uphill shape and character the car is literally pressed on the tarmac, so the tires provide max grip... When i adjust "my" FFB i use this spot to set my signal to 1.00 (max = 100%).

The catch is, as you can see in the telemetry, while you go though that corner most part of the FFB signal results from lateral (holding) forces (exactly as it should be), while road details, shakes, bumps, etc. (=spikes) contribute relatively little to the whole signal. The "main" line (Snake Force) stays pretty stable around 0.75 - 0.80 according to the constant max tire load you get throughout that corner. If you filter the curve you see in your mind by just erasing the spikes, what you see then is a line of the lateral forces actually saturating at 0.75 - 0.80.

Let me stress it bit to make my point clearer: There is an entire range of lateral forces between 0.75 and 1.00 that got compressed to that line of 0.75. In other words: All nuances of input forces that happen between 0.75 and 1.00 are really gone and stapled to one value, which is 0.75. The "deltas" between 0.75 - 1.00 get equalized to 0.75.

Of course if you level your lateral forces (which are imo responsible for steering precision because you wanna feel any detail before grip becomes less) up to 1.00 (by e.g. setting RAC to 0.98 or 1.00) your spikes get lifted into the clipping zone >1.00. And here comes my personal theory or approach into play: I think if the upper half of your spikes get cut of, so what, nothing happens, it won't even effect the vividness of your FFB feeling, because you still got your lower half of the spikes. These "lower" second half of the entire spikes are still remaining and "interrupting your "slower"/"steadier" Snake Line/Force that is now almost at 1.00. Since the Snake Line is still shattered by the fast Fz and SoP diff forces you still have a vivid wheel with road feel.

In this context it's interesting to have a look at your former settings with higher RAC and higher Tire Forces in general: The Snake Line was higher up, close to 1.00 but was heavily intercut/interrupted by the lower half part of the spikes which were stronger too, due the higher tire forces in general. So you actually utilized the effect i described above, by ignoring the upper half of the spikes that of course got cut off, thus lost. But it didn't matter, since your friends the lower half spikes delivered the vividness...

Thats's why IMO you had theoretically more details and dynamic with the relevant steering forces with your older settings. The reason why i think your new settings work better is because with your older setting you had the tireforces (ms = 100, Mz and Fz = 100, plus high TF scaler in the globals) so high that the upper 25 - 50% of your tire force signal (=input) were eaten up by RAC set at 0.98. Therefore you lost at least 25% (0.75 - 1.00) of the original tire forces due to saturation caused by RAC, just then at 1.00 output level. In so far your new setting with lower tire forces are much less bend into the RAC after-knee-saturation-range, thus more detailed and differentiated. That's why i think the new "transparency" make the new setting feel better, even if you're still giving away a bit available headroom of 20-25%.

If you set back RAC to let's say 0.95 but keep the tire forces the same as set in the new setting, and then lowering your GM FFB approx. 25% the weight of the wheel should feel more or less the same, while there should be a nuance of more diffrentaition of the lateral forces, while vividness shouldn't be compromised. (Though I cannot rule that clipped spikes cause digital chatter... Your CSW wheel can surely much better detect such artefacts than my t300.)

Of course: Everything said above is purely theoretical, it's very possible none of my conclusions proof relevant when translated into the practical world with different wheels and many more parameters being in play.

However, since we came a long way, i wouldn't mind at all if practical tests show different results. (And if i find some time, I'll capture the telemetry of that Watkins Glens sharp turn with my settings (which are not better but totally different!) so it get obvious what's the difference between a setting that utilizes saturation compared to a setting that works with no saturation (with the cost of much less vividness especially on straights.)

230166
230167

EDIT: my previous post had a big mistake: The Zero Line in the telemetry was of course totally wrong. Here the correct picture. (My entire post was misleading with the wrong picture...)

GrimeyDog
20-03-2016, 19:37
In the graphs you clearly see the RAC at 0.75 in effect. The overall dynamic - including the spikes - is perfect (no clipping at all), though i think you're giving away a bit detail in steering precision. I don't wanna sound like Dr. FFB ;) but i f had to argue it, I'd say: The Watkins uphill right hand corner (picture attached) is the spot on that track that i usually experience the strongest tire force. Which is kind of logic because it's a tight sharp corner with a relatively high speed, and due its uphill shape and character the car is literally pressed on the tarmac, so the tires provide max grip... When i adjust "my" FFB i use this spot to set my signal to 1.00 (max = 100%).

The catch is, as you can see in the telemetry, while you go though that corner most part of the FFB signal results from lateral (holding) forces (exactly as it should be), while road details, shakes, bumps, etc. (=spikes) contribute relatively little to the whole signal. The "main" line (Snake Force) stays pretty stable around 0.75 - 0.80 according to the constant max tire load you get throughout that corner. If you filter the curve you see in your mind by just erasing the spikes, what you see then is a line of the lateral forces actually saturating at 0.75 - 0.80.

Let me stress it bit to make my point clearer: There is an entire range of lateral forces between 0.75 and 1.00 that got compressed to that line of 0.75. In other words: All nuances of input forces that happen between 0.75 and 1.00 are really gone and stapled to one value, which is 0.75. The "deltas" between 0.75 - 1.00 get equalized to 0.75.

Of course if you level your lateral forces (which are imo responsible for steering precision because you wanna feel any detail before grip becomes less) up to 1.00 (by e.g. setting RAC to 0.98 or 1.00) your spikes get lifted into the clipping zone >1.00. And here comes my personal theory or approach into play: I think if the upper half of your spikes get cut of, so what, nothing happens, it won't even effect the vividness of your FFB feeling, because you still got your lower half of the spikes. These "lower" second half of the entire spikes are still remaining and "interrupting your "slower"/"steadier" Snake Line/Force that is now almost at 1.00. Since the Snake Line is still shattered by the fast Fz and SoP diff forces you still have a vivid wheel with road feel.

In this context it's interesting to have a look at your former settings with higher RAC and higher Tire Forces in general: The Snake Line was higher up, close to 1.00 but was heavily intercut/interrupted by the lower half part of the spikes which were stronger too, due the higher tire forces in general. So you actually utilized the effect i described above, by ignoring the upper half of the spikes that of course got cut off, thus lost. But it didn't matter, since your friends the lower half spikes delivered the vividness...

Thats's why IMO you had theoretically more details and dynamic with the relevant steering forces with your older settings. The reason why i think your new settings work better is because with your older setting you had the tireforces (ms = 100, Mz and Fz = 100, plus high TF scaler in the globals) so high that the upper 25 - 50% of your tire force signal (=input) were eaten up by RAC set at 0.98. Therefore you lost at least 25% (0.75 - 1.00) of the original tire forces due to saturation caused by RAC, just then at 1.00 output level. In so far your new setting with lower tire forces are much less bend into the RAC after-knee-saturation-range, thus more detailed and differentiated. That's why i think the new "transparency" make the new setting feel better, even if you're still giving away a bit available headroom of 20-25%.

If you set back RAC to let's say 0.95 but keep the tire forces the same as set in the new setting, and then lowering your GM FFB approx. 25% the weight of the wheel should feel more or less the same, while there should be a nuance of more diffrentaition of the lateral forces, while vividness shouldn't be compromised. (Though I cannot rule that clipped spikes cause digital chatter... Your CSW wheel can surely much better detect such artefacts than my t300.)

Of course: Everything said above is purely theoretical, it's very possible none of my conclusions proof relevant when translated into the practical world with different wheels and many more parameters being in play.

However, since we came a long way, i wouldn't mind at all if practical tests show different results. (And if i find some time, I'll capture the telemetry of that Watkins Glens sharp turn with my settings (which are not better but totally different!) so it get obvious what's the difference between a setting that utilizes saturation compared to a setting that works with no saturation (with the cost of much less vividness especially on straights.)

230141


Spot On assessment Dr. FFB:eagerness:!!! your right:yes: That up hill section is the part where i Miss the extra wheel weight the Most...Especially when i get to the Top of the hill at full throttle and the front wheel try to leave the ground under weight transfer and full throttle... All the forces are there just at a lighter Volume and wheel weight and its making that corner tricky!!! This is why I'm torn!!! I'm using 75 on wheel FFB but i can Now use 100 on wheel FFB and i get my same old feel back with better more manageable wheel weight!!! and yes with on wheel FFB 100 the road feel is the same as the old Tweek even though Mz is 50:yes: The Lower RAB and scoop settings seem to tighten up the wheel center so higher Mz 100 is not needed...Very interesting:cool-new:

Now here is the New paradox!!! Trying to add in just the right amount of Road feel without increasing the wheel weight too much... This is where GM FFB 35 came into play... That's how i used to balance and fine tune the final at the wheel FFB power VS wheel weight.

as it is Now i am Very happy with the 75 on wheel FFB but i still get torn and crank the wheel too 100... i think its just because im sooo used to the heavy wheel and FFB forces... but the more i settle into the lighter wheel the better it Feels...I sat yesterday and tested cars for at least 10 hours while watching the 12 hours of Seabring ... I must have tested 80% of the cars in 1 testing session while watching the race...using the same in car settings every car but every car tested has its own Road feel and wheel weight.... as i look back at My old Mz 100 tweek that might have been a flaw...some cars Ex: GT3 the wheel weight was spot on While other cars Ex: KTM Bow it was too much... Driving the KTM really showed that a Re-tweek was needed!!! turning the car really felt like dragging a sand bag around! because the wheel was too heavy.

Hmmmm I think im onto something... I have reduced the Mz to 30.00 to Reduce the "Mz" induced snap back to center effect... that's adding wheel weight and more Road feel back in that up hill section while keeping wheel FFB at 75:yes:.... Seems that Fx and Mz being set to same value has a good effect... they both deal with lateral FFB Forces just from opposite ends...Hmmmm:confused:

GrimeyDog
20-03-2016, 19:51
[QUOTE=tennenbaum;1254266]In the graphs you clearly see the RAC at 0.75 in effect. The overall dynamic - including the spikes - is perfect (no clipping at all), though i think you're giving away a bit detail in steering precision. I don't wanna sound like Dr. FFB ;) but i f had to argue it, I'd say: The Watkins uphill right hand corner (picture attached) is the spot on that track that i usually experience the strongest tire force. Which is kind of logic because it's a tight sharp corner with a relatively high speed, and due its uphill shape and character the car is literally pressed on the tarmac, so the tires provide max grip... When i adjust "my" FFB i use this spot to set my signal to 1.00 (max = 100%).

The catch is, as you can see in the telemetry, while you go though that corner most part of the FFB signal results from lateral (holding) forces (exactly as it should be), while road details, shakes, bumps, etc. (=spikes) contribute relatively little to the whole signal. The "main" line (Snake Force) stays pretty stable around 0.75 - 0.80 according to the constant max tire load you get throughout that corner. If you filter the curve you see in your mind by just erasing the spikes, what you see then is a line of the lateral forces actually saturating at 0.75 - 0.80.

Let me stress it bit to make my point clearer: There is an entire range of lateral forces between 0.75 and 1.00 that got compressed to that line of 0.75. In other words: All nuances of input forces that happen between 0.75 and 1.00 are really gone and stapled to one value, which is 0.75. The "deltas" between 0.75 - 1.00 get equalized to 0.75.

Of course if you level your lateral forces (which are imo responsible for steering precision because you wanna feel any detail before grip becomes less) up to 1.00 (by e.g. setting RAC to 0.98 or 1.00) your spikes get lifted into the clipping zone >1.00. And here comes my personal theory or approach into play: I think if the upper half of your spikes get cut of, so what, nothing happens, it won't even effect the vividness of your FFB feeling, because you still got your lower half of the spikes. These "lower" second half of the entire spikes are still remaining and "interrupting your "slower"/"steadier" Snake Line/Force that is now almost at 1.00. Since the Snake Line is still shattered by the fast Fz and SoP diff forces you still have a vivid wheel with road feel.

In this context it's interesting to have a look at your former settings with higher RAC and higher Tire Forces in general: The Snake Line was higher up, close to 1.00 but was heavily intercut/interrupted by the lower half part of the spikes which were stronger too, due the higher tire forces in general. So you actually utilized the effect i described above, by ignoring the upper half of the spikes that of course got cut off, thus lost. But it didn't matter, since your friends the lower half spikes delivered the vividness...

Thats's why IMO you had theoretically more details and dynamic with the relevant steering forces with your older settings. The reason why i think your new settings work better is because with your older setting you had the tireforces (ms = 100, Mz and Fz = 100, plus high TF scaler in the globals) so high that the upper 25 - 50% of your tire force signal (=input) were eaten up by RAC set at 0.98. Therefore you lost at least 25% (0.75 - 1.00) of the original tire forces due to saturation caused by RAC, just then at 1.00 output level. In so far your new setting with lower tire forces are much less bend into the RAC after-knee-saturation-range, thus more detailed and differentiated. That's why i think the new "transparency" make the new setting feel better, even if you're still giving away a bit available headroom of 20-25%.

If you set back RAC to let's say 0.95 but keep the tire forces the same as set in the new setting, and then lowering your GM FFB approx. 25% the weight of the wheel should feel more or less the same, while there should be a nuance of more diffrentaition of the lateral forces, while vividness shouldn't be compromised. (Though I cannot rule that clipped spikes cause digital chatter... Your CSW wheel can surely much better detect such artefacts than my t300.)

Of course: Everything said above is purely theoretical, it's very possible none of my conclusions proof relevant when translated into the practical world with different wheels and many more parameters being in play.

However, since we came a long way, i wouldn't mind at all if practical tests show different results. (And if i find some time, I'll capture the telemetry of that Watkins Glens sharp turn with my settings (which are not better but totally different!) so it get obvious what's the difference between a setting that utilizes saturation compared to a setting that works with no saturation (with the cost of much less vividness especially on straights.)

230166
230167

EDIT: my previous post had a big mistake: The Zero Line in the telemetry was of course totally wrong. Here the correct picture. (My entire post was misleading with the wrong picture...)



LOL Pics Look almost Identical to me>>>> LOL Im sure most got the idea first pic... we know the FFB Box is not perfectly Halved.


Tennenbaum you have to test AGAIN the FFB Settings!!! This Time set the Mz to 30 the same value as Fy... This is a good result and may lead to more info on how these 2 settings interact.... set to same value they seem to really balance one another to create a stable but very informative wheel center feel....HMmmmm???

Its really balancing out to be a perfect Push pull Mix:afro: LOL!!!

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 19:57
Actually his reasoning for doing it that way was simple. He said somewhere raising tf above 75 caused clipping early in the signal chain. Its easy enough to test set tf to 100 and watch the hud. Youll start seeing those little hickups in the waveforms and weird tops on the waveforms. Switch tf back to 75 and they go away. I tried this when he came out with these and its pretty obvious if youre paying attention to why he did it. Cleaner signal cleaner ffb with better differentiation between the forces. That was what I thought too with some clipping on stronger forces that aren't really important but what I found was you get some of the signals you want into the clipping range with them. Not flat line obvious clipping but the at the top of the hud with rough tops on them. I'm assuming this becomes added unwanted wheel weight(saturation) instead of an actual usefull force. This is why I said its better to start low with gain and work up . Most of us have started high and worked lower which doesn't give you a chance to see or feel when things are going wrong.

This is very interesting in so far that it seems that JS doesn't believe (or doesn't take into account) that there is a "invisible" headroom for the tire forces before entering the RAG/RAB/RAC module. I may say it got proven by skoader (and my own findings) in another thread that such headroom exists. Thus no clipping happens before the signal reaches the "normalized" zone 0.00 - 1.00 leveled by RAG/RAB/RAC and/or SCHI/SCFO. What you described, "the hick ups" result from the fact that JS "overdrives" the normalized corridor with his in-car settings a bit anyway.

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 20:13
[QUOTE=tennenbaum;1254371]



LOL Pics Look almost Identical to me>>>> LOL Im sure most got the idea first pic... we know the FFB Box is not perfectly Halved.


Tennenbaum you have to test AGAIN the FFB Settings!!! This Time set the Mz to 30 the same value as Fy... This is a good result and may lead to more info on how these 2 settings interact.... set to same value they seem to really balance one another to create a stable but very informative wheel center feel....HMmmmm???

Its really balancing out to be a perfect Push pull Mix:afro: LOL!!!

lol! you know I'm German, - worse - I'm Swabian, from the area where Porsche and Mercedes come from, we are terribly accurate, and can't loosen up :rolleyes:

I'll try your suggestion... setting Mz and Fy to the same value actually refers to SMS raw 1:1 default, just scaled lower. Though just be aware that my Fy is 86, so i have to lower my Mz from 160 (RUF 8 GT3) to 86. It will mess up my balance totally , but why not give it a try ;)

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 20:24
Spot On assessment Dr. FFB:eagerness:!!! your right:yes: That up hill section is the part where i Miss the extra wheel weight the Most...Especially when i get to the Top of the hill at full throttle and the front wheel try to leave the ground under weight transfer and full throttle... All the forces are there just at a lighter Volume and wheel weight and its making that corner tricky!!! This is why I'm torn!!! I'm using 75 on wheel FFB but i can Now use 100 on wheel FFB and i get my same old feel back with better more manageable wheel weight!!! and yes with on wheel FFB 100 the road feel is the same as the old Tweek even though Mz is 50:yes: The Lower RAB and scoop settings seem to tighten up the wheel center so higher Mz 100 is not needed...Very interesting:cool-new:

Now here is the New paradox!!! Trying to add in just the right amount of Road feel without increasing the wheel weight too much... This is where GM FFB 35 came into play... That's how i used to balance and fine tune the final at the wheel FFB power VS wheel weight.

as it is Now i am Very happy with the 75 on wheel FFB but i still get torn and crank the wheel too 100... i think its just because im sooo used to the heavy wheel and FFB forces... but the more i settle into the lighter wheel the better it Feels...I sat yesterday and tested cars for at least 10 hours while watching the 12 hours of Seabring ... I must have tested 80% of the cars in 1 testing session while watching the race...using the same in car settings every car but every car tested has its own Road feel and wheel weight.... as i look back at My old Mz 100 tweek that might have been a flaw...some cars Ex: GT3 the wheel weight was spot on While other cars Ex: KTM Bow it was too much... Driving the KTM really showed that a Re-tweek was needed!!! turning the car really felt like dragging a sand bag around! because the wheel was too heavy.

Hmmmm I think im onto something... I have reduced the Mz to 30.00 to Reduce the "Mz" induced snap back to center effect... that's adding wheel weight and more Road feel back in that up hill section while keeping wheel FFB at 75:yes:.... Seems that Fx and Mz being set to same value has a good effect... they both deal with lateral FFB Forces just from opposite ends...Hmmmm:confused:

Did you mean Fx or Fy setting the same as Mz? Hhm, Fy doesn't work "opposite" in term of "inverse" to Mz. (Fz counteracts Mz and Fy.) Puuuh, sometimes FFB shows its true nature: it's a beast!

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 20:47
Here the telemetry of the RUF 8 GT3 Watkins Short with my settings without RAC and/or SC compression. be aware i run Fx, Fy, Mz with smoothing 10 and relatively low Fz and SoP diff, so much less spikes than Grimey's and most other settings.

https://youtu.be/wGpujKPQ8_k

even more interesting than the uphill right hand corner is the long sweeper after the bus stop: Here you can see how much differentiation FFB delivers while i keep the signal away from any saturation.

here a still picture comparison at the almost same spot on track between Grimey's setting and mine "experimental" ! ;-) (Grimey with the BMW GT3, me with the Ruf).

Besides the different cars and Grimey being faster, you can see the different characteristic of the different FFB settings...

230176
230177

GrimeyDog
20-03-2016, 21:01
Did you mean Fx or Fy setting the same as Mz? Hhm, Fy doesn't work "opposite" in term of "inverse" to Mz. (Fz counteracts Mz and Fy.) Puuuh, sometimes FFB shows its true nature: it's a beast!

Fy setting the same as Mz... Yes!!! but you have to try my whole settings including the Global!!! you will just need to adjust your GM FFB according to your wheel.

tennenbaum
20-03-2016, 21:05
Fy setting the same as Mz... Yes!!! but you have to try my whole settings including the Global!!! you will just need to adjust your GM FFB according to your wheel.

Got it! Will try asap :D

skoader
20-03-2016, 21:42
This is very interesting in so far that it seems that JS doesn't believe (or doesn't take into account) that there is a "invisible" headroom for the tire forces before entering the RAG/RAB/RAC module. I may say it got proven by skoader (and my own findings) in another thread that such headroom exists. Thus no clipping happens before the signal reaches the "normalized" zone 0.00 - 1.00 leveled by RAG/RAB/RAC and/or SCHI/SCFO. What you described, "the hick ups" result from the fact that JS "overdrives" the normalized corridor with his in-car settings a bit anyway.

Indeed. The only place the signal is truly hard clipped is if it falls outside the 0-1 range after the compression routines. You can strangle very strong signals with Relative Adjust and I think this is what Jack is referring to, but clipping before the compression routines or later 'at the wheel' just doesn't happen.

GrimeyDog
20-03-2016, 22:04
The Notorious B.I.G. - "Big Poppa" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phaJXp_zMYM)
Tweeker Break!!! Smokin L's in the Jaquzzi sippin Paul Masson while she do Me:cool:

GrimeyDog
21-03-2016, 22:52
Re tweekeked settings Better balance between power and fidelity Smoother turning... Lower Mz value


GrimeyDog 9.0 v# RAC 0.75 Fanatec CSW v2 PS4

***Note i Drive in Car View with Camera Shake on at Default Setting...The Camera Shake and Wheel FFB Syncs Nicely...I suggest turning Camera Shake on so what you see is in Sync with what you feel in the wheel.***
CSW v2 On Wheel Settings Sen Auto, FFB 75:yes:, Sho 100, ABS Off, Lin Off , Dea Off, Dri Off, FOR 100, Spr 100, Dpr 100, (CSP V3 pedals only BrF 30 or to your taste)

Set Pedal sen and Dead Zones to taste... I use

Sat 50%

Dead Zones 0%
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Speed Sensitivity 0
Controller filtering sensitivity 0
Damper saturation 0
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Game master FFB (CSW v2) PS4 * 100 * (take Note that GM FFB is subject to change and Need readjustment per Pcars update)
(With 9.0 GM FFB has No Effect... set GM FFB 100 and forget it until further Notice)
RPM Gear Display Yes
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Controller input 3
Advanced Off= Steering Feels more Linear, Center of Wheel Feels Calmer.
Advanced On= Wheel Center is Not Linear, More Road/Bump/Curb feel in Wheel Center, Wheel can Feel Twitchy.
Soft Steering Damping On
Visual Wheel Filtering On
Opposite Lock Help Off

*** Global FFB ***

Tire Force 100
Per Wheel Movement 0.00
per wheel Squared 0.00
Wheel position Smoothing 0.00
Dead zone removal range 0.00
Dead zone Removal fall Off Move full Left then *** 5 *** Clicks Right
----------------------------------------------------------------
Linkage Scale 0.00
Linkage Stiffness 1.00 ( i just leave it there the range is 0 so it has No Effect just leave it )
Linkage damping 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Relative Adjust Gain 1.00

Relative adjust Bleed 0.08

RAC 0.75 (testing 85 and 88 New:yes:)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Scoop Knee 0.72

Scoop Reduction 0.14
----------------------------------------------------------------
Soft Clipping(Half input) 0.00
Soft Clipping(full output) 0.00
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Menu Spring 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation 1.00
Steering gain 1.00
----------------------------------------------------------------

Master Scale 100

FX 10.00 FWD cars 30.00

FY 30.00 Road Feel FWD cars 50.00

FZ 60.00 Curb Feel + or - *to taste*

Mz 30.00 New:yes: Formula "A" 10.00 ... will vary for different Class Formula cars ...start at 50 Reduce until feel is right for you or 0% oscillation

Fy and Mz being set to same value with this tweek seems to set the right balance between push and pull within the FFB forces at the wheel.

[INDENT]
Arm Angle 1500 or whatever it is Stock as per car

Sop Master Scale 100 ***Can also be set to 0.00 if you prefer No SoP feel*** FWD cars 0.00

SoP Lat 10.0 Lateral Weight Transfer + or - *to taste*

SoP Diff 60.0 Vertical/ Lateral Weight Transfer + or - *to taste*

SoP Damp 0.0 0


RAC Now 85 in Video... Because of the lower Mz setting i can run RAC up to 90 without the wheel being Too Heavy and weighted or the FFB effects becoming too strong and overbearing ... i chose 85 for now... Testing between RAC75, 85 and 88 my goal is to stay just a tad below the clipping point while under Max load... Wheel forces are clearly felt and very detailed... also the Fy and Mz being set to same value with the new global settings seem to create the right balance between push and pull at the wheel even under heavy FFB and weight transfer.


KTM Bow at watkins short... I chose this car because last i drove it it felt heavy like i was dragging a bag of sand around the corners...feels really Nice Nice now:yes:... It was driving this car that really let me know a FFB re tweek was much needed.

https://youtu.be/sAXcUWdNk9M


Hopefully Nothing Changes with 10.0!!! These settings feel spot on for me.:D Im very happy with them... much better than my mz 100 tweek:yes:


Edit: it seems that RAC 75 is giving the best subtle Road Feel.... RAC 85 and 88 Give good feel but the subtle feel seems to be less:confused: Tennenbaum Explain please.

GrimeyDog
23-03-2016, 12:13
I have to admit i am Currently Loving My New Settings:D
Im finally done Chasing the Unicorn again:victorious:
Ive been Testing the New settings since Saturday while watching the 12 hours of Seabring... More than 20+ hours of testing...pretty much tested all the cars and the Feel is Right for Me...When i Reduced the Mz it all fell into place!!!! When 10.0 drops i will Finally Start the Career Races!!! I have Not completed any Career Events to date... SMH

Feeling Very inspired:cool:

SGETI
23-03-2016, 21:30
my mistake

GrimeyDog
23-03-2016, 23:57
Very interesting!!! with my New settings i can Run in Car Masters at 200!!! with No Clipping and Still well below the Clipping Range!!! The Road feel is tremendous!!! but not overbearing without the Heavy wheel weight!!! Look at the FFB line when i cross the start finish paint!!!

This opens up more question though??? what is in car masters 100 truly = to??? 50% or 100%
200 felt really good very vibrant and No Heavy Wheel just strong Road feel forces....100 feels great also but its less road feel forces.

I'm settling with 110 for Now... Its bed time for Me... this was a random last minute test to see what happens and the results are Great!!! Driving the Renault Megane settings shown at end of video...

https://youtu.be/u5NjaKosL1s

I Have caught My Unicorn!!! This is the feel i have been Looking for since Pcars launch:applause:

Tennenbaum where are you??? I need you to test this and Explain with on of your Brilliant summations!!!

Krus Control
24-03-2016, 00:21
Very interesting!!! with my New settings i can Run in Car Masters at 200!!! with No Clipping and Still well below the Clipping Range!!! The Road feel is tremendous!!! but not overbearing without the Heavy wheel weight!!! Look at the FFB line when i cross the start finish paint!!!

This opens up more question though??? what is in car masters 100 truly = to??? 50% or 100%
200 felt really good very vibrant and No Heavy Wheel just strong Road feel forces....100 feels great also but its less road feel forces.
110 for Now... Its bed time for Me... this was a random last minute test to see what happens and the results are Great!!! Driving the Renault Megane settings shown at end of video...

https://youtu.be/u5NjaKosL1s

I Have caught My Unicorn!!! This is the feel i have been Looking for since Pcars launch:applause:

Tennenbaum where are you??? I need you to test this and Explain with on of your Brilliant summations!!!

These look an awful lot like my settings. The telemetry especially. You're probably opening some headroom somewhere. This happened with my settings and I was able to raise tire force significantly. Was the last step in fine tuning mine.

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 00:31
Have a look at the settings they are posted at top of this page.... Very different settings than yours... since the GM FFB No longer works im using the RAC for FFB power control and its working out Great:D

These settings feel great you should try them... then post.

Im Not using in car masters 200 its Not needed... was just testing to see if i can without clipping:yes:

Edit: I can see Now where it might be useful to set the masters higher in some cars than in others.

Krus Control
24-03-2016, 01:19
They have to be different because I change things in the Thrustmaster control panel. It looks like your settings work in the same way my changes do without access to the control panel. I'm done with the FFB quest. Just from your telemetry at 200 master I would say these are the closest to mine that I've seen.

gotdirt410sprintcar
24-03-2016, 03:59
Not too bad grimey do some more testing with it i might just start racing again. I always wondered if any off the global and FFB calibration could be used or set like you can on a pc. Like what parts of the system could be considered those you adjust on the controle panel. probably wrong but when i got my new T500 it was set at 48 FFB in game stock and it new it was a T500 it be nice if they had the controle panel in game already special for console's

ALL THESE STUPID RULES EASY ON A PC

Edit this where I will be Friday night 30 minutes from my house and my home track is five minutes away

https://youtu.be/ZZ0DlkA5T1c

https://youtu.be/fGw_LUTpDcs my home track 14 year old kid made this video must see js

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 09:25
Have a look at the settings they are posted at top of this page.... Very different settings than yours... since the GM FFB No longer works im using the RAC for FFB power control and its working out Great:D

These settings feel great you should try them... then post.

Im Not using in car masters 200 its Not needed... was just testing to see if i can without clipping:yes:

Edit: I can see Now where it might be useful to set the masters higher in some cars than in others.

i wished i could test your settings, but i'm too absorbed with work ar the moment. so without practical test i can only guess... however, why do you use RAC like 'volume knob' instead of SG? i know not much about the CSW but it seem to me it's a specific issue with this wheel that it puts the game's in-game FFB in the globals out of order, right? so it seems inconvenient to control the over all strength of the wheel at the wheel itself, therefore you use RAC? again why not SG? i know using SG as volume knob you compromis the Hud FFB box as "peakmeter", but using RAC so set the weight of the wheel while still keeping the full 0-1 dynanic range by the help of the spikes is not wrong but kind if unusual... to be honest it puzzles me because by playing around with RAC you seem to change the character of your FFF fundamentally, because of RAC's compression function, that alters the entire i/o behaviour massively - and unpredictably due to its non linear character. that's why in this case just by reading the numbers of your settings 'my math' doesn't work :D so i have to test it practically just by looking at the numbers and looking at your video i'm surprised, because the hud ffb line looks different that i'd expect. it's possible that since you lowered RAC so much you / we can see all of sudden something that didn't come to my mind before: the spikes can contribute (with this specific setting) more to the steering itself than i thought... by setting RAC this low you made them visible. with higher rac they were masked by RAG. remember i once wrote a post about RAG signal and original i/o curve and RAB being the "switcher" between them...

however, as said, without practicall test, no chance to really understand what your new setting really does... but look a bit like as if there is still a lot to explore. with your unorthodox use of RAC (using it like volume knob for the wheel weight) you may have opened a whole new door... what makes me frown is that because you reduced Fy and Mz so much you're reducing these two forces that i considered to be the most important for a relevant steering feedback. instead you're 'building' your FFB signal now primarily with SoP diff and Fz - both forces that i always found dubious in terms of being a "black box" to me. but it seems it can be done... you see me rubbing my eyes...:D

written on iphone on the go, i excuse for sloppy grammar and misspellings...

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 10:08
i wished i could test your settings, but i'm too absorbed with work ar the moment. so without practical test i can only guess... however, why do you use RAC like 'volume knob' instead of SG? i no nothing about the CSW but it seem to me it's a specific issue with this wheel that it puts the game's in-game FFB in the globals out of order, right? so it seems inconvenient to control the over all strength of the wheel at the wheel itself, therefore you use RAC? again why not SG? i know using SG as volume knob you comromise the Hud FFB box as "peakmeter", but using RAC so set the weight of the wheel while still keeping the full 0-1 dynanic range by the help of the spikes is not wrong but kind if unusual... to be honest it puzzles me because by playing around with RAC you seem to change the character of your FFF fundamentally, because of RAC's compression function, that alters the entire i/o behaviour massively - and unpredictably due to its non linear character. that's why in this case just by reading the numbers of your settings 'my math' doesn't work �� so i have to test it practically just by looking at the numbers and looking at your video i'm surprised, because the hud ffb line looks different that i'd expect. it's possible that since you lowered RAC so much you / we can see all of sudden something that didn't come to my mind before: the spikes contribute more to the steering itself than i thought... by setting RAC this low you made them visible. with higher rac they were masked by RAG. remember i once wrote a post about RAB and original i/o curve and RAB being the "switcher" between them...

however, as said, without practicall test, no chance to really understand what your new swtting really does... but look a bit like as if there is still a lot to explore.

written on iphone on the go, i excuse for sloppy grammar and misspellings...

Heres My Theory from Testing

RAG sets Max power of FFB Relative system... any FFB spikes that rise above the pre set RAG value will be Cut/Clipped

RAC sets the Basic/Starting constant power Level of Relative system... under Load Weight Transfer,Curbs,Bumps Forces will rise to undetermind point until power dissipates.

RAB Bleeds off forces to create changes in wheel weight to create FFB Effects.

I dont use steering gain to adjust power levels because you Lose Dynamic Range... It cuts the Power of the Entire FFB system before it gets to the wheel.. So its just
a Placeebo to cover up that things within the system are out of Balance... Balance is the Key Factor.

RAC Controles the FFB Effects Strength Curbs, Bumps ETC.

For Fanatec wheels the GM FFB has been Negated and is Now set with the Fanatec on wheel FFB settings.... it was Haiden who first alerted Me of this Fact 2 or 3 weeks ago... i was so set with My prior tweek w/GM FFB 35 i had Not checked or Noticed GM FFB No longer had any + or -effect.Thanks Haiden you were Right:yes:

Its all about Head Room by setting RAC lower when FFB power level spikes i suffer No Clipping and lose No Dynamic Range...i am sure of because RAC 85 and higher the wheel Feels Heavier but the subtle FFB feel is Decreased!!!

RAC 75 allows Me enough Head room to Crank the in Car Masters up to the Maximum if i feel i want more Road Feel From the car without Making the wheel Heavy and overbearing.

With My New Tweek The Fx,Fy, Sop etc settings Need Not be changed once you have found the Balance and Feel that is right for you with those settings... Its all about adjusting the In Car Masters to set the Level of Road Feel that you want to feel in a certain car...EX the Gt3 Porsche is a Light Bumpy Harsh car so Car Master 100 will work but the bently being Heavier with a Smoother Foaty feel than the Porsche you may need to set in car Masters to 150 to bring out More Road Feel.

RAC 75 eliminates the same Tweek feeling Perfect with some cars but Much to Heavy or Light with other Cars because the Masters can Now be set to per Car to increase/Decrease Road Feel while Keeping the Fx,Fy,Sop balance that you like and are familiar with intact.. This was the Case with My Prior settings during the Race with the KTM Bow.. My Wheel was Much Too Heavy but felt Perfect in the Gt class cars.

This Method should work well with all wheels as long as the GM FFB is set to the wheel being used..

I have Caught the Unicorn!!! This is My Best Tweek work to Date:yes:

Now the only Question is.... what is in Car Master 100 truely = to??? Seems Now that the in car Masters are just Volume Controls with Really Fine power adjustment (1 to 200) for adjusting Road Feel per Car... Hmmm....

Edit: you Need to test this ASAP:D

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 10:23
These look an awful lot like my settings. The telemetry especially. You're probably opening some headroom somewhere. This happened with my settings and I was able to raise tire force significantly. Was the last step in fine tuning mine.

what are your actual settings? where can they be seen?

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 10:35
Heres My Theory from Testing

RAG sets Max power of FFB Relative system... any FFB spikes that rise above the pre set RAG value will be Cut/Clipped

RAC sets the Basic/Starting constant power Level of Relative system... under Load Forces will rise to undetermind point until power dissipates.



RAB Bleeds off forces to create changes in wheel weight to create FFB Effects.

I dont use steering gain to adjust power levels because you Lose Dynamic Range... It cuts the Power of the Entire FFB system before it gets to the wheel.. So its just
a Placeebo to cover up that things within the system are out of Balance... Balance is the Key Factor.

RAC Controles the FFB Effects Strength Curbs, Bumps ETC.

For Fanatec wheels the GM FFB has been Negated and is Now set with the Fanatec on wheel FFB settings.... it was Haiden who first alerted Me of this Fact 2 or 3 weeks ago... i was so set with My prior tweek w/GM FFB 35 i had Not checked or Noticed GM FFB No longer had any + or -effect.Thanks Haiden you were Right:yes:

Its all about Head Room by setting RAC lower when FFB power level spikes i suffer No Clipping and lose No Dynamic Range...i am sure of because RAC 85 and higher the wheel Feels Heavier but the subtle FFB feel is Decreased!!!

RAC 75 allows Me enough Head room to Crank the in Car Masters up to the Maximum if i feel i want more Road Feel From the car without Making the wheel Heavy and overbearing.

With My New Tweek The Fx,Fy, Sop etc settings Need Not be changed once you have found the Balance and Feel that is right for you with those settings... Its all about adjusting the In Car Masters to set the Level of Road Feel that you want to feel in a certain car...EX the Gt3 Porsche is a Light Bumpy Harsh car so Car Master 100 will work but the bently being Heavier with a Smoother Foaty feel than the Porsche you may need to set in car Masters to 150 to bring out More Road Feel.

RAC 75 eliminates the same Tweek feeling Perfect with some cars but Much to Heavy or Light with other Cars because the Masters can Now be set to per Car to increase/Decrease Road Feel while Keeping the Fx,Fy,Sop balance that you like and are familiar with intact.. This was the Case with My Prior settings during the Race with the KTM Bow.. My Wheel was Much Too Heavy but felt Perfect in the Gt class cars.

This Method should work well with all wheels as long as the GM FFB is set to the wheel being used..

I have Caught the Unicorn!!! This is My Best Tweek work to Date:yes:

i added and corrected some points in my post (while you responded already), also about my surprise that you have so little Fy and Mz in the mix...

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 11:42
Heres My Theory from Testing

RAG sets Max power of FFB Relative system... any FFB spikes that rise above the pre set RAG value will be Cut/Clipped

RAC sets the Basic/Starting constant power Level of Relative system... under Load Forces will rise to undetermind point until power dissipates.

RAB Bleeds off forces to create changes in wheel weight to create FFB Effects.

I dont use steering gain to adjust power levels because you Lose Dynamic Range... It cuts the Power of the Entire FFB system before it gets to the wheel.. So its just
a Placeebo to cover up that things within the system are out of Balance... Balance is the Key Factor.

RAC Controles the FFB Effects Strength Curbs, Bumps ETC.

For Fanatec wheels the GM FFB has been Negated and is Now set with the Fanatec on wheel FFB settings.... it was Haiden who first alerted Me of this Fact 2 or 3 weeks ago... i was so set with My prior tweek w/GM FFB 35 i had Not checked or Noticed GM FFB No longer had any + or -effect.Thanks Haiden you were Right:yes:

Its all about Head Room by setting RAC lower when FFB power level spikes i suffer No Clipping and lose No Dynamic Range...i am sure of because RAC 85 and higher the wheel Feels Heavier but the subtle FFB feel is Decreased!!!

RAC 75 allows Me enough Head room to Crank the in Car Masters up to the Maximum if i feel i want more Road Feel From the car without Making the wheel Heavy and overbearing.

With My New Tweek The Fx,Fy, Sop etc settings Need Not be changed once you have found the Balance and Feel that is right for you with those settings... Its all about adjusting the In Car Masters to set the Level of Road Feel that you want to feel in a certain car...EX the Gt3 Porsche is a Light Bumpy Harsh car so Car Master 100 will work but the bently being Heavier with a Smoother Foaty feel than the Porsche you may need to set in car Masters to 150 to bring out More Road Feel.

RAC 75 eliminates the same Tweek feeling Perfect with some cars but Much to Heavy or Light with other Cars because the Masters can Now be set to per Car to increase/Decrease Road Feel while Keeping the Fx,Fy,Sop balance that you like and are familiar with intact.. This was the Case with My Prior settings during the Race with the KTM Bow.. My Wheel was Much Too Heavy but felt Perfect in the Gt class cars.

This Method should work well with all wheels as long as the GM FFB is set to the wheel being used..

I have Caught the Unicorn!!! This is My Best Tweek work to Date:yes:

Now the only Question is.... what is in Car Master 100 truely = to??? Seems Now that the in car Masters are just Volume Controls with Really Fine power adjustment (1 to 200) for adjusting Road Feel per Car... Hmmm....

Edit: you Need to test this ASAP:D

"Seems Now that the in car Masters are just Volume Controls with Really Fine power adjustment (1 to 200) for adjusting Road Feel per Car... Hmmm...."

the higher you set the tire forces (by the in-car masters) the more you press them in the saturation-zone set around 0.75 with your RAC setting. Thus a tire force of e.g. 1.3 (NB: wrangled by RAG differential equation) will be leveled to the same "around 0.75" saturation/soft limit output as a tire force of e.g. 1.6, or 2, or more.

What RAG, RAB and RAC in combination with the original unaltered signal (mixed by RAB) really does is hard to explain without bringing up all the math again in combination with the invisible headroom and the RAG "attack times" instead of setting absolute power, etc., etc.... so your conclusion above is right - but only from a certain perspective and with your specific settings. Switch RAG/RAB/RAC module off and your conclusion becomes misleading, because than every single parameter is going back to show its origin nature: to be a simple linear scaler, which they all actually are - with or without RAC being a "de-linearizing" soft-limiter.

It's a pity that the forum's search function is such a mess, otherwise it'd be easier to collect and summarize the proven facts and the findings that are still in discussion. A lot of the posts (also my posts) are hard to understand without knowing to which prior statements and findings they relate to. E.g. understanding the invisible headroom and its consequences to further effects caused by the Relative Adjust operator is only possible to its full extend when you know how the math works before the signal gets wrangled by RAGBC.

Example Fz = 60, MS = 100, TF = 130. 0.6 x 1.0 x 1.3 = 0.78. But that amount 0.78 is not what will be ingested by RAGBC. Instead when you use a virtual multiplier of 5 (there is nowhere a proof to that exact number, but tests and the fact that you can set up SCFO up to 20 give reason that the number "5" kind of reflects what's happening internally in the signal chain) you get the "real" number that RAC is "flattening" to its set value that can be within the normalized 0.0 - 1.0 zone or higher up to 2.0.

So here the full math: 0.78 x 5 = 3.9

E.g. your setting with SoP diff = 60 results in 0.6 x 1.0 (SoP Scale) x 100 (TF) x 5 = 3.0. So you use RAC to scale the SoP diff force from its "true" value of 3.0 (when SoP reaches maximum during driving) to the RAC soft-limiting zone of 0.75. That is a scaling ratio of 4:1.

What happens if you set MS = 200? 0.6 x 2.0 x 1.0 x 5 = 6 but your output (due to RAC) is still 0.75. So RAC's scaling ratio is now 6.0 : 0.75 = 8.

Extreme example: Fz 200, MS 200, TF 100. 2.0 x 2.0 x 1.0 x 5 = 20. RAC will level 20 to 0.75, thus scaling ratio is 26.

As a matter of fact the true scaling rations are even much higher, because RAC doesn't scale linear, but has a knee ("treshold"), meaning it scales more or less 1:1 up to a certain value, and with values higher than that (the knee) the non-linear scaling starts.

BTW, instead of RAC you could also use SCFO set at 20 to scale such high tire force "coming from the invisible headroom" to the normalized 1.0 - 1.0 dynamic range. So instead of cutting off everything from 1.0 - 20.0 (clipping) the entire 0.0 - 20.00 signal gets pressed into a zone of 0.0 - 1.0. It's just an strong non linear down-scaling.

That explains why it doesn't make a big difference if you set your MS to 100 or to 200, even while the numbers look so different. Instead of doubling of what you feel at the wheel is actually dimmed down by RAC to an increase of only a few percent. Here in this case doing the math may help for better understanding how the mix and absolute settings of forces lead to certain effects in the end. Other times it's just a burden... :D

And - as always - this is just an analysis of the numbers, it says nothing about the practical feel at the wheel. Because, yes, with your setting you can alter the master spindle scale value into a fine-tuning instrument, even if this was probably not necessarily especially intended by the devs in the first place. As well as you can use the spikes not only to add vivid road feel and sensations, but to give your wheel more extra weight coming from spikes than with the more normal settings. Still, i don't have an explanation why Fz and SoP diff can jump into the roles of the "purer" steering forces Fy and Mz, doing a good job too.

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 11:53
i added and corrected some points in my post (while you responded already), also about my surprise that you have so little Fy and Mz in the mix...

LOL... Quick answers because im Bright and sharp this Morning!!! The New Tweek process has Me Motivated and Full of Vigor!!!! I have finally Captured the Feel/ Unicorn i have been Chasing since Pcars Launch:applause: Very Excited about this.

I can use Low Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz settings because i use High Masters... If i were to Run Lower Masters i would have to Double the amount of My Fx,Fy,Mz etc settings... I choose to use the Higher Master because its the actual output power control for those settings... in leu of Trying to adjust the power output from Raising the settings themselves and pushing them through Low Masters.... Adjustin the Masters is the easiest way and is Universal to every car once you find the Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz, and SoP settings you like... You just Raise or Lower the Masters to set the FFB Road Feel to the particular Car being used.

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 12:14
"Seems Now that the in car Masters are just Volume Controls with Really Fine power adjustment (1 to 200) for adjusting Road Feel per Car... Hmmm...."

the higher you set the tire forces (by the in-car masters) the more you press them in the saturation-zone set around 0.75 with your RAC setting. Thus a tire force of e.g. 1.3 (NB: wrangled by RAG differential equation) will be leveled to the same "around 0.75" saturation/soft limit output as a tire force of e.g. 1.6, or 2, or more. What RAG, RAB and RAC in combination with the original signal (mixed by RAB) really does is hard to explain without bringing up all the math again in combination with the invisible headroom and the RAG "attack times" instead of "scaling" etc, etc... so your conclusion above is right - but only from a certain perspective and with your specific settings. Switch RAG/RAB/RAC module off and your conclusion becomes misleading, because than every single parameter is going back to show its origin nature: to be a simple linear scaler, which they all actually are - with or without the RAC "soft-limiter / de-linearizer".

it's a pity that the forum's search function is such a mess, otherwise it'd be easier to collect and summarize the proven facts and the findings that are still in discussion. A lot of the posts (also my posts) are hard to understand without knowing to which prior statements and findings they relate to. E.g. understanding the invisible headroom and its consequences to further effects caused by the Relative Adjust operator is only possible to its full extend when you know how the math works before the result of the computation reaches RAGBC. Example Fz = 60, MS = 100, TF = 130. 0.6 x 1.0 x 1.3 = 0.78. But that amount 0.78 is not what will be ingested by RAGBC. Instead when you use a virtual multiplier of 5 (there is nowhere a proof to that exact number, but tests and the fact that you can set up SCFO up to 20 give reason that the number "5" kind of reflects what's happening internally in the signal chain) you get the "real" number that RAC is "flattening" to its set value that can be within the normalized 0.0 - 1.0 zone or higher up to 2.0. So here the full math: 0.78 x 5 = 3.9! E.g. your setting with SoP diff = 60 results in 0.6 x 1.0 (SoP Scale) x 100 (TF) x 5 = 3.0. So you use RAC to scale the SoP diff force from its "true" value of 3.0 (when SoP reaches maximum during driving) to the RAC soft-limiting zone of 0.75. That is a scaling ratio of 4:1. What happens if you set MS = 200? 0.6 x 2.0 x 1.0 x 5 = 6 but your output (due to RAC) is still 0.75. So RAC's scaling ratio is now 6.0 : 0.75 = 8. Extreme example: Fz 200, MS 200, TF 100. 2.0 x 2.0 x 1.0 x 5 = 20. RAC will level 20 to 0.75. So RAC kind of equalizes everything that goes over RAC's "Threshold". But instead of RAC you could also use SCFO set at 20 to scale such high tire force "coming from the invisible headroom" to the normalized 1.0 - 1.0 dynamic range. So instead of cutting off everything from 1.0 - 20.0 (clipping) the entire 0.0 - 20.00 signal gets pressed into a zone of 0.0 - 1.0. It's just an strong non linear down-scaling. That explains why it doesn't make a big difference if you set your MS to 100 or even to 200, even while the numbers look so different. Here in this case doing the math may help for better understanding how the mix and absolute settings of forces lead to certain effects in the end. Other times it's just a burden... :D

Yes... SMS put all the Different FFB Tools in there to see how people will use them... IMO they are Looking for will be the best or Most popular Feel and Result... This will determin their future actions in future FFB system updates and when creating Pcars2 FFB system.

Note all of the FFB tools can Not be used at the same time IMO...the Tools are Redundent ... One FFB System/Tool can Negate the other.... They all do the same thing just in different ways.

I expect PCars 2 FFB system to be Much more Streamlined than Pcars 1.

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 12:48
Yes... SMS put all the Different FFB Tools in there to see how people will use them... IMO they are Looking for will be the best or Most popular Feel and Result... This will determin their future actions in future FFB system updates and when creating Pcars2 FFB system.

Note all of the FFB tools can Not be used at the same time IMO...the Tools are Redundent ... One FFB System/Tool can Negate the other.... They all do the same thing just in different ways.

I expect PCars 2 FFB system to be Much more Streamlined than Pcars 1.

Edit: i use the Relative system to tweek... I am aware that i can use the SCFO to achieve same or similar results. i dont think i will be tweeking to use the SCFO system... Maybe if i get board i dunno.... but as it is when i post My post and tweeks are Only Relative system based... are there any Good SCFO tweeks that are Developed and Good that i can Try and Test against My Relative based tweek??? ... I Need to try a SCFO tweek to see if i want to try to tweek that route also..... IMO SCFO and Relative are a Head ache to combine because you have Two FFB systems trying to do the same thing... So to Me its use 1 or the other.

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 12:58
Edit: i use the Relative system to tweek... I am aware that i can use the SCFO to achieve same or similar results. i dont think i will be tweeking to use the SCFO system... Maybe if i get board i dunno.... but as it is when i post My post and tweeks are Only Relative system based... are there any Good SCFO tweeks that are Developed and Good that i can Try and Test against My Relative based tweek??? ... I Need to try a SCFO tweek to see if i want to try to tweek that route also..... IMO SCFO and Relative are a Head ache to combine because you have Two FFB systems trying to do the same thing... So to Me its use 1 or the other.

yes...i also gave up on tweaking SCHI/SCFO, even while i know a bit what it does in theory it's too fiddly for me to find a good setting with it. and yes, together with RAC it's even more difficult. But bmanic became a specialist for the Softclipper... :D

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 13:02
tennenbaum I dont use the RAC to set the wheel weight... I use the on the Wheel FFB and TF for that... The RAC sets the FFB Effects Strength...it adds some wheel weight but only proportioned to the FFB Effects Strength of the RAC Value that is set.

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 13:05
Not too bad grimey do some more testing with it i might just start racing again. I always wondered if any off the global and FFB calibration could be used or set like you can on a pc. Like what parts of the system could be considered those you adjust on the controle panel. probably wrong but when i got my new T500 it was set at 48 FFB in game stock and it new it was a T500 it be nice if they had the controle panel in game already special for console's

ALL THESE STUPID RULES EASY ON A PC

Edit this where I will be Friday night 30 minutes from my house and my how track is five minutes away

https://youtu.be/ZZ0DlkA5T1c

https://youtu.be/fGw_LUTpDcs my home track 14 year old kid made this video must see js

lol. what's that big thing these dirt track karts have on their roof...? first time i see such vehicles. not such thing here in Germany. looks like fun... now i know from where your forum name comes from...:D

gotdirt410sprintcar
24-03-2016, 13:24
Its called a top wing that plants the car too the track . And they have about 900hp and weight is 1350 its like a top fuel drag car at take off for thirty laps. Back in the 90's they where getting crazy with weight they where only about 1200 too 1250 but people where getting hurt so over the years they added more weight. I used too help a team out back then we drill 3 inch holes in the seat to take weight out you could take thirty pounds out by doing thatlol crazy

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 13:37
tennenbaum I dont use the RAC to set the wheel weight... I use the on the Wheel FFB and TF for that... The RAC sets the FFB Effects Strength...it adds some wheel weight but only proprtioned to the FFB Effects Strength.

yes and no, and both together :D i know. Though, leave your Wheel FFB at any given value and lower RAC to 0.2 your wheel (weight) will get lighter... Additionally set RAB to a higher value and the wheel will get definitely lighter (when RAC is low). Set RAC higher the opposite happens.

We mean the same thing with different words...

The way i look at the entire FFB system i don't make a difference between "FFB effects" and FFB in general. Though nobody defined yet what's the difference between FFB strength and wheel weight. But of course, if you define the derived "relative" FFB signals that RAG adds to to original signal as an "FFB effect" then you're right: yes, then RAC sets the "FFB Effects Strength" of RAG. Nevertheless it still also holds true that this "FFB effect" strength adds or reduces weight to what we call wheel weight. Insofar imo with RAC you also influence the entire weight of the wheel - not only the amount of "effects" within the general weight of the wheel (set by FFB and TF). Not to forget that with GM FFB you do not only scale the general weight of the wheel, but you also scale the FFB "effects" as well.

And it looks like as if the TF slider works linear. It does, but only if RAGBC is switched off. When RAGBC is turned on, TF doesn't work linear any more... I know you know, but when i think of all the people coming to this forum not having followed it from the beginning i try to weave in such stuff to give new readers hints where pCars FFB can be beasty...

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 13:40
Its called a top wing that plants the car too the track . And they have about 900hp and weight is 1350 its like a top fuel drag car at take off for thirty laps. Back in the 90's they where getting crazy with weight they where only about 1200 too 1250 but people where getting hurt so over the years they added more weight. I used too help a team out back then we drill 3 inch holes in the seat to take weight out you could take thirty pounds out by doing thatlol crazy

That Looks like Big Fun!!! I saw on In side sim Racing they were asking for Community Funding like Pcars did to Make a Racing Game with those cars!!! I would buy it!!!

GrimeyDog
24-03-2016, 13:45
yes and no, and both together :D i know. Though, leave your Wheel FFB at any given value and lower RAC to 0.2 your wheel weight will get lighter... Additionally set RAB to a higher value and the wheel will get definitely lighter (when RAC is low).

The way i look at the entire FFB system i don't make a difference between "FFB effects" and FFB in general. Though nobody defined yet what's the difference between FFB strength and wheel weight. But of course, if you define the derived FFB signals that RAG adds to to original signal as an "FFB effect" you're right: yes, then RAC sets the FFB Effects Strength. But then it still also holds true that this "FFB effect" strength adds or reduces weight to what we call wheel weight. Insofar imo with RAC you also change the entire weight of the wheel - not only the amount of "effects" within the general weight of the wheel (set by FFB and TF). Not to forget that with GM FFB you do not only scale the general weight of the wheel, but you also scale the FFB "effects" as well.

And there is this unfortunate position of TF in the globals menu. It looks like as if that TF slider works linear. It does , but only if RAGBC is switched off. When RAGBC is turned on, TF doesn't work linear any more... I know you know, but when i think of all the people coming to this forum not having followed it from the beginning i try to weave in such stuff to give new readers hints where pCars FFB can be beasty...


tennenbaum I dont use the RAC to set the wheel weight... I use the on the Wheel FFB and TF for that... The RAC sets the FFB Effects Strength...it adds some wheel weight but only proportioned to the FFB Effects Strength of the RAC Value that is set.

Exactly... Were thinking the same thing:yes:

tennenbaum
24-03-2016, 13:58
Its called a top wing that plants the car too the track . And they have about 900hp and weight is 1350 its like a top fuel drag car at take off for thirty laps. Back in the 90's they where getting crazy with weight they where only about 1200 too 1250 but people where getting hurt so over the years they added more weight. I used too help a team out back then we drill 3 inch holes in the seat to take weight out you could take thirty pounds out by doing thatlol crazy

this much horse powers...?!!! and so heavy. they must be fast and dangerous... in the video they looked like relatively small karts.

morpwr
24-03-2016, 14:24
this much horse powers...?!!! and so heavy. they must be fast and dangerous... in the video they looked like relatively small karts.

That's about right. A go kart on steroids! Its crazy they get that much power down on dirt in something that light. Really fun to watch!

BigDad
25-03-2016, 00:42
this much horse powers...?!!! and so heavy. they must be fast and dangerous... in the video they looked like relatively small karts.
1300 pounds 620 kg , 900 to 1100 hp 800 kw
Small , light and powerful
Just as light as F1 but v12 era power =)

gotdirt410sprintcar
25-03-2016, 01:13
this much horse powers...?!!! and so heavy. they must be fast and dangerous... in the video they looked like relatively small karts.
yeah they are very dangerous here is a video where the throttle got stuck open by mud same track im going to on Friday

https://youtu.be/t95EmUL5Kfg

GrimeyDog
25-03-2016, 01:19
GrimeyDog Engineering!!! I finally got of my Lazy Ars or Left the tweeking alone to make a Pedal Rake set up for My Pedals:D
It came out Pretty good... I ordered the angle brakets from the Heusinkveld engineering pedal set but i had to cut and drill the steel bars to mount the Angle pedal brackets to... I couldnt bring my self to cut or scar that beautiful flat aluminum plate the brackets came with!!! the pedals would not have fit that plate... I think im going to use that plate as a wheel mount:confused:... Drill hole into it for the fanatec wheel and mount it to my set up to bring the wheel out further....Hmmmm...i dunno but that aluminum plate is Hella cool:cool: very thick also!!! gonna use it for sumthin...Hmmmm.

Heusinkveld engineering pedals i wish those pedals worked on console with the v2 wheel!!! i would for sure have a set!!!

Edit: Those steel bars i cut were thick and sturdy...The benefit is those bars were Perfectly straight and level!!! when i loosened the screws on the Pedals before i mounted them to the bottom so that they would make sure the pedals are straight and level and once i locked the bars down i Re-tightened the pedals so now they are perfect level and straight also... Fanatec pedal owners know how frustrating it is to get your v1/v2/v3 pedals straight again if you take them apart!!! if the pedals are not straight you end up with false pedal readings, Mostly in the brake pedal.

morpwr
26-03-2016, 12:20
I checked it out last night. I'm actually running SG=1.20. But, like I said, I used to run it at 1.25, and remember it being fine, so I tested it out. I got up to SG=1.35, and didn't see any clipping in the telemetry. It's just too heavy for my tastes, and I can't feel the tire slip as well, which I think is due to the saturation. SG=1.20 is my sweet spot. IDK, our difference may be hardware. I'm also running FF/TF = 90/75. And, if I wasn't running @wheel Spring force at 50%, I'd probably lower SG=1.10. Not for clipping reasons, though, just my particular weight preference.

I'm updating my settings page now.

Well I got back to trying the gain setting. That was actually why I asked when I saw your settings were so close to mine. How is he doing it and I cant. I have no idea why it was clipping before at 1.20 the only thing I can think of is pcars bug where it didn't accept something properly from all the tweaking. I tried it again and I'm right back where I was at before 1.22. Like you said I settled there because it seems to be a good balance between forces and just adding wheel weight. I haven't changed anything except that and don't plan on it at this point. Beside lowering the ffb master because of the gain increase obviously. I actually spent the other night just trying every track (the longest version) with a different car on everyone. I had an absolute blast!!!! Tried to pick some of the older cars for the older tracks stuff I wouldn't normally pick old open wheel, some of the old fords. The old cars are frustrating sometimes with the lack of handling,tires,brakes compared to newer cars but when you start getting them around the track its really rewarding. There are so many really good cars and tracks in this game all with their own unique challenges when driving them.

GrimeyDog
26-03-2016, 13:12
So far 10.0 all feels well with New settings... any 1 notice anything that changed???

morpwr
26-03-2016, 13:22
So far 10.0 all feels well with New settings... any 1 notice anything that changed???

Nice job on the mount grimey. No I didn't notice any changes with the ffb.

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-03-2016, 13:41
yeah you have to watch close some will not click then your stuck in between numbers.

And I been testing that 75 clamp its funny to me how a low clamp and high clamp feel alike other than wheel weight witch is not much to you go lower. I wish the FFB BOOK will come out soon lol but I just wonder if a high clamp is the way to go like 1.75 to start with then set the gain and bleed. I don't think a high steering sensitivity really is needed to twitchy and when your twitchy your just losing speed 50 too 60 is good I use 54

Haiden
26-03-2016, 14:58
Well I got back to trying the gain setting. That was actually why I asked when I saw your settings were so close to mine. How is he doing it and I cant. I have no idea why it was clipping before at 1.20 the only thing I can think of is pcars bug where it didn't accept something properly from all the tweaking. I tried it again and I'm right back where I was at before 1.22. Like you said I settled there because it seems to be a good balance between forces and just adding wheel weight. I haven't changed anything except that and don't plan on it at this point. Beside lowering the ffb master because of the gain increase obviously. I actually spent the other night just trying every track (the longest version) with a different car on everyone. I had an absolute blast!!!! Tried to pick some of the older cars for the older tracks stuff I wouldn't normally pick old open wheel, some of the old fords. The old cars are frustrating sometimes with the lack of handling,tires,brakes compared to newer cars but when you start getting them around the track its really rewarding. There are so many really good cars and tracks in this game all with their own unique challenges when driving them.

The game has intermittent loading glitches that affect sound and FFB. Sometimes your FFB will just load wrong. It doesn't happen often, so when it does I usually don't think about it. I get on track, feel something strange, wonder WTF?, and then make a few changes in-car, thinking the scales are out of balance. After a couple of pit changes, I finally remember the loading glitch, restart the session, and bam...the FFB is back to normal.

Ha! That's funny, because after your comment, I tested SG at 1.00, 1.10, 1.20, 1.25, and 1.35. The lower values were just too light, which seemed to confirm that 1.20 was the sweet spot for me. But then it occurred to me that I had @wheel Spring set to 50, so I decided to try those SG values with Spring=100. It turns out, I was wrong about the Spring value. @wheel Spring=50 works good with Jack's original settings, probably because he's running SG=1.45, but with the lower SG values, some of the more subtle forces weren't rising above the attenuation. The telemetry looked good, because it was. The full dynamic range was there in-game and being sent to the wheel, but the @wheel setting was decreasing the signal.

However... :) Despite the ability to feel more of the range, the lower SG values left me with the problem of the wheel being too light. I gave it some time, and did start to feel more comfortable with SG=1.10, but I was still missing the extra weight, and it was affecting my cornering. I tried raising the in-car Masters. A few clicks did bring some weight back, but it also increased all of the tire forces, and I didn't like the feel--a bit too saturated. Then I remembered something I'd read about Caster! :victorious: Increasing Caster a few clicks--or even to the max for some cars--brings weight to the wheel without increasing any of the tire forces. It's a pretty benign setting, too, and doesn't really affect/change the handling of your mechanical setup--other than possible marginal improvements in straight line stability and corner exit, which is where the weight comes from. IMO, it can also sometimes enhance the subtle details in the wheel with some cars. I'm still testing various cars with the setting (SG=1.10 with higher Caster), and won't know the end result until I go back to my old SG=1.20 with default Caster for comparison. But so far, every car I've tested feels great. I don't think the Marek LMP1 has ever felt that good, but... tbh... when I went to the Marek, the in-car settings weren't the Jack's, so I don't what I running when I last drove it.

I agree about the PCars garage. I was having a blast testing various cars. And since I'm not going back and forth/in and out of the Globals setting, trying to remember how something felt between loads, I can actually enjoy the game while I nail this last tweak. I pick a car, drive some laps with default Caster, then pit, raise Caster, and head back out. It's basically a normal tuning session, just focused on one aspect. :) Sometime today or tomorrow, I'll switch back to SG=1.20 with the default Caster and do a comparison with a few of my favorite car/track combos. This past month, I've really been just enjoying this game. I'm glad to be out of the rabbit hole. :victorious: Gonna start a new season with full damage, no restarts, and fixed AI difficulty. Someone mentioned they were doing that in another thread, and I like the idea. It will make the static seasons far more random, in terms of outcome. Now, I just need to decide which car to start with. :confused:

Give reduced SG with increased Caster a shot, and then let me know what you think?

Also, the other thing I dialed in this week was FOV and Look to Apex. I'm planning to get a monitor mount and dedicated screen for rig, but for now, my screen is about 20 inches further away than I'd like, which calls for a lower FOV. The recommended FOV is just too low--the sense of speed and scale was fine, but I couldn't see the apex in slow and tight corners--so I was bumping it up 10-15. But Look to Apex was set to 35.. I don't remember changing it, and can't remember the default, but that seemed low. I increased it to 65 and now I can run FOV closer to the recommended setting for current setup. It also makes cornering way easier, because you're turning from a slightly different visual perspective that allows you to track the line better. :)

GrimeyDog
26-03-2016, 15:56
yeah you have to watch close some will not click then your stuck in between numbers.

And I been testing that 75 clamp its funny to me how a low clamp and high clamp feel alike other than wheel weight witch is not much to you go lower. I wish the FFB BOOK will come out soon lol but I just wonder if a high clamp is the way to go like 1.75 to start with then set the gain and bleed. I don't think a high steering sensitivity really is needed to twitchy and when your twitchy your just losing speed 50 too 60 is good I use 54

Simple Fix!!! I Now Raise the in Car Masters to Match the Car!!! Take a Car you Know well and Start with Masters 100 then just Raise/Lower the Masters until the Feels is Right:yes:
Ex: GT3 Ruff i use in car Masters 110
The Renault Megane i use Nasters 100
The Masters can be set to Car without Fear of Clipping:yes:


Edit you can Re.adjust the FX,Fy,SoP settings if Needed nut take Note that May Require you to Readjust your Car Masters + or -.

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-03-2016, 16:23
Check this video out they call this kid a alien on I racing because he is so fast so they put him in a race car to see how they compare and he has never driven a real car.https://youtu.be/0p_sCrM1CcI

Haiden
26-03-2016, 16:47
yeah you have to watch close some will not click then your stuck in between numbers.

And I been testing that 75 clamp its funny to me how a low clamp and high clamp feel alike other than wheel weight witch is not much to you go lower. I wish the FFB BOOK will come out soon lol but I just wonder if a high clamp is the way to go like 1.75 to start with then set the gain and bleed. I don't think a high steering sensitivity really is needed to twitchy and when your twitchy your just losing speed 50 too 60 is good I use 54

I agree. I'm at 60. I found anything above that made the open wheelers way to twitchy, especially using and F1 style rim.

Haiden
26-03-2016, 17:04
Check this video out they call this kid a alien on I racing because he is so fast so they put him in a race car to see how they compare and he has never driven a real car.https://youtu.be/0p_sCrM1CcI

Amazing. He'll be even faster once he's able to hold down his lunch. :)

morpwr
26-03-2016, 17:04
The game has intermittent loading glitches that affect sound and FFB. Sometimes your FFB will just load wrong. It doesn't happen often, so when it does I usually don't think about it. I get on track, feel something strange, wonder WTF?, and then make a few changes in-car, thinking the scales are out of balance. After a couple of pit changes, I finally remember the loading glitch, restart the session, and bam...the FFB is back to normal.

Ha! That's funny, because after your comment, I tested SG at 1.00, 1.10, 1.20, 1.25, and 1.35. The lower values were just too light, which seemed to confirm that 1.20 was the sweet spot for me. But then it occurred to me that I had @wheel Spring set to 50, so I decided to try those SG values with Spring=100. It turns out, I was wrong about the Spring value. @wheel Spring=50 works good with Jack's original settings, probably because he's running SG=1.45, but with the lower SG values, some of the more subtle forces weren't rising above the attenuation. The telemetry looked good, because it was. The full dynamic range was there in-game and being sent to the wheel, but the @wheel setting was decreasing the signal.

However... :) Despite the ability to feel more of the range, the lower SG values left me with the problem of the wheel being too light. I gave it some time, and did start to feel more comfortable with SG=1.10, but I was still missing the extra weight, and it was affecting my cornering. I tried raising the in-car Masters. A few clicks did bring some weight back, but it also increased all of the tire forces, and I didn't like the feel--a bit too saturated. Then I remembered something I'd read about Caster! :victorious: Increasing Caster a few clicks--or even to the max for some cars--brings weight to the wheel without increasing any of the tire forces. It's a pretty benign setting, too, and doesn't really affect/change the handling of your mechanical setup--other than possible marginal improvements in straight line stability and corner exit, which is where the weight comes from. IMO, it can also sometimes enhance the subtle details in the wheel with some cars. I'm still testing various cars with the setting (SG=1.10 with higher Caster), and won't know the end result until I go back to my old SG=1.20 with default Caster for comparison. But so far, every car I've tested feels great. I don't think the Marek LMP1 has ever felt that good, but... tbh... when I went to the Marek, the in-car settings weren't the Jack's, so I don't what I running when I last drove it.

I agree about the PCars garage. I was having a blast testing various cars. And since I'm not going back and forth/in and out of the Globals setting, trying to remember how something felt between loads, I can actually enjoy the game while I nail this last tweak. I pick a car, drive some laps with default Caster, then pit, raise Caster, and head back out. It's basically a normal tuning session, just focused on one aspect. :) Sometime today or tomorrow, I'll switch back to SG=1.20 with the default Caster and do a comparison with a few of my favorite car/track combos. This past month, I've really been just enjoying this game. I'm glad to be out of the rabbit hole. :victorious: Gonna start a new season with full damage, no restarts, and fixed AI difficulty. Someone mentioned they were doing that in another thread, and I like the idea. It will make the static seasons far more random, in terms of outcome. Now, I just need to decide which car to start with. :confused:

Give reduced SG with increased Caster a shot, and then let me know what you think?

Also, the other thing I dialed in this week was FOV and Look to Apex. I'm planning to get a monitor mount and dedicated screen for rig, but for now, my screen is about 20 inches further away than I'd like, which calls for a lower FOV. The recommended FOV is just too low--the sense of speed and scale was fine, but I couldn't see the apex in slow and tight corners--so I was bumping it up 10-15. But Look to Apex was set to 35.. I don't remember changing it, and can't remember the default, but that seemed low. I increased it to 65 and now I can run FOV closer to the recommended setting for current setup. It also makes cornering way easier, because you're turning from a slightly different visual perspective that allows you to track the line better. :)

Yeah I don't know what happened at this point with the gain. That's the only thing I can think of is was a glitch the night I was playing with it and like you said with the going back and forth sometimes its hard to remember exactly what you felt. I have been trying to avoid using caster for a ffb adjustment. I know a lot do but if the car ffb works correctly it should effect camber gain when you change it. Agreed raising it will give you more weight as it would in real life I'm just not sure about using it for anything other than actual chassis tuning. Ive been using full damage for a while now keeps things interesting. I find it really cool you can flat spot a tire or knock the toe out. Not that I ever hit things.lol Ill have to check out the look to apex setting.

morpwr
26-03-2016, 17:05
Hope all you guys have a safe and happy Easter!!!!

Haiden
26-03-2016, 18:35
Yeah I don't know what happened at this point with the gain. That's the only thing I can think of is was a glitch the night I was playing with it and like you said with the going back and forth sometimes its hard to remember exactly what you felt. I have been trying to avoid using caster for a ffb adjustment. I know a lot do but if the car ffb works correctly it should effect camber gain when you change it. Agreed raising it will give you more weight as it would in real life I'm just not sure about using it for anything other than actual chassis tuning. Ive been using full damage for a while now keeps things interesting. I find it really cool you can flat spot a tire or knock the toe out. Not that I ever hit things.lol Ill have to check out the look to apex setting.

That's why I'm still comparing them. I'm torn between SG=1.10+increased Caster and SG=1.20.

morpwr
26-03-2016, 19:19
That's why I'm still comparing them. I'm torn between SG=1.10+increased Caster and SG=1.20.

That was my last ffb change unless something changes. I'm really happy with where I'm at right now. I'm getting pretty consistent 1.07s-low 1.08s at the glen with the untuned ruf gt3 with a best of a 1.07.5 so far. Now I just need to get my feet working better so I'm more consistent running that fast. Those last few tenths your footwork becomes so important.

Haiden
26-03-2016, 20:39
That was my last ffb change unless something changes. I'm really happy with where I'm at right now. I'm getting pretty consistent 1.07s-low 1.08s at the glen with the untuned ruf gt3 with a best of a 1.07.5 so far. Now I just need to get my feet working better so I'm more consistent running that fast. Those last few tenths your footwork becomes so important.

Yep. That's where I am. This was the last thing I'm messing with. I'm still not sure which one was the better, but you made a good point about not using the mechanical for FFB purposes. I decided to just go with SG=1.15, a little more wheel weight than 1.10, and just a little less saturation than 1.20.

Tomorrow, I'm starting a new season. Still not sure which class yet, though. Unless SMS changes something, I'm done with the FFB. I'm not gonna get any more out this. Time to focus on driving. :)

SGETI
26-03-2016, 20:41
That was my last ffb change unless something changes.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard that statement , I would have enough money to buy an actual race car. :victorious:

GrimeyDog
26-03-2016, 23:08
Nice job on the mount grimey. No I didn't notice any changes with the ffb.

Thanks:D The Pedals feel really good... positioning the pedals right is the hardest part for Me... Ive been driving flat footed sooo long that i have to get used to the new pedal angle... Lap times are dropping I have alot more throttle control because i can now roll my foot from Gas to brake and feather the Gas much easier!!!

Im going to make another 1 Monday as the next piece arrives but the next 1 will have adjustable Pedal Rake angle... It just so happened that after i ordered the first angle brackets i saw a better solution 1 day later and it was too late to Cancel the original order.

morpwr
27-03-2016, 02:17
If I had a dollar for every time I heard that statement , I would have enough money to buy an actual race car. :victorious:

I'm with Haiden at this point its time to get practicing and racing. I think all of us have got as much as we are going to out of the ffb.

morpwr
27-03-2016, 02:29
Thanks:D The Pedals feel really good... positioning the pedals right is the hardest part for Me... Ive been driving flat footed sooo long that i have to get used to the new pedal angle... Lap times are dropping I have alot more throttle control because i can now roll my foot from Gas to brake and feather the Gas much easier!!!

Im going to make another 1 Monday as the next piece arrives but the next 1 will have adjustable Pedal Rake angle... It just so happened that after i ordered the first angle brackets i saw a better solution 1 day later and it was too late to Cancel the original order.

You don't realize how those little things effect you until you change them. I just did the same a few weeks ago with my rig. Takes a little time to adjust but even if its just to be more comfortable it makes a difference especially if your doing longer races.

PureMalt77
27-03-2016, 11:51
I'm with Haiden at this point its time to get practicing and racing. I think all of us have got as much as we are going to out of the ffb.
More than truth! But for this weekend's race I'm using your settings entirely for a little "experiment". Reports about hows and whys later :D

morpwr
27-03-2016, 12:12
Good luck with the experiment. You can run the gain at 1.0 or 1.20 its not a huge difference but still different just adjust the ffb master accordingly.

tennenbaum
27-03-2016, 14:04
Good luck with the experiment. You can run the gain at 1.0 or 1.20 its not a huge difference but still different just adjust the ffb master accordingly.

do you mean: "...but still different than just adjusting the ffb master accordingly."

i think i need some help here... following your conversation it seems to me that you're saying changing SG (like a master "volume knob") leads to a different result than using GM FFB to make the FFB signal simply stronger or weaker. (to put it profanely). I know with Fanatec wheels it's a different issue, so let's leave them aside here.

So e.g. SG 1.20 x GM FFB 60 (0.6) = 0.72 ≠ SG 0.90 x GM FFB 80 (0.8) ? You know i know that SG is before HUD and GM FFB after HUD. Also that you can lift the signal with SG into the clipping zone (shows in HUD), while lifting GM FFB doesn't have to lead to clipping at wheel side necessarily. But beside that, both scalers work both linear, aren't they? (Of course as long as you don't use SG to lift the signal into clip.)

Or are you tweaking SG minimally around plus/minus 1.00 as a kind of "fine-tuning", actually in terms of nudging the signal very slightly into the clipping zone or out of it? Meaning you position the signal's peaks with the help of SG into this narrow area where the visual HUD control simply is too vague to give a valid info about clipping? So you keep all your settings with their inherit balances the same and just kind of push the signal in little increments until you can feel "it was too much now"?

Or, do you actually think by increasing SG you can kind of "widen" the dynamic range", or some other non-linear behavior?

P.S.: And good luck with racing tonight. ...let us happy easter campers out of home know about the outcome of the races...

GrimeyDog
27-03-2016, 14:13
I'm with Haiden at this point its time to get practicing and racing. I think all of us have got as much as we are going to out of the ffb.

Im Done with the Tweeking again... Nothing seemed to change with 10.0 so New Tweek works as it should...With the New Tweek i only Need to set the in Car Masters + or - for the Car to bring out the Road Feel and Wheel Tension that feels right for the Car... The wheel Tension/weight goes up in proportion to the FFB strenght... I can Use Car Masters at 200 with any Car if Needed and stay well Below the Clipping Zone:yes: So Far i have Not found any Car that Needs 200 Masters Most of the Cars use Masters 100 --> 150.... I have No Science about what cars Need Higher Masters and which Cars Don't Ive just been Testing and adjusting the Masters by Feel...as i Set more cars i will figure out the pattern...but I am Very pleased with the latest Tweek Results...No Changes Need to be Made to the Car just set the in Car FFB and Drive...Then Tweek the Car Suspension if you like.

IMO FFB and Car Suspension tuning are Different and Totally Seperate.

as long as Nothing with the FFB Changes in future updates im Done tweeking again for a while.

GrimeyDog
27-03-2016, 14:24
do you mean: "...but still different than just adjusting the ffb master accordingly."

i think i need some help here... following your conversation it seems to me that you're saying changing SG (like a master "volume knob") leads to a different result than using GM FFB to make the FFB signal simply stronger or weaker. (to put it profanely). I know with Fanatec wheels it's a different issue, so let's leave them aside here.

So e.g. SG 1.20 x GM FFB 60 (0.6) = 0.72 ≠ SG 0.90 x GM FFB 80 (0.8) ? You know i know that SG is before HUD and GM FFB after HUD. Also that you can lift the signal with SG into the clipping zone (shows in HUD), while lifting GM FFB doesn't have to lead to clipping at wheel side necessarily. But beside that, both scalers work both linear, aren't they? (Of course as long as you don't use SG to lift the signal into clip.)

Or are you tweaking SG minimally around plus/minus 1.00 as a kind of "fine-tuning", actually in terms of nudging the signal very slightly into the clipping zone or out of it? Meaning you position the signal's peaks with the help of SG into this narrow area where the visual HUD control simply is too vague to give a valid info about clipping? So you keep all your settings with their inherit balances the same and just kind of push the signal in little increments until you can feel "it was too much now"?

Or, do you actually think by increasing SG you can kind of "widen" the dynamic range", or some other non-linear behavior?

P.S.: And good luck with racing tonight. ...let us happy easter campers out of home know about the outcome of the races...

What i found with the Latest Tweek settings is that if i Reduce RAC to stay below the Clipping Zone... I start at In car Masters 100 and i can Raise the In Car Masters per car and Get Much Better Road Feel without getting a Heavy Wheel!!! and without the Fear of Clipping.

The Stronger FFB will be Felt any way but some of the Finer Finer Forces get Lost in the Clipping Zone when the FFB spike Tips get cut off.. IMO Lower RAC is the New way to go.

morpwr
27-03-2016, 15:52
do you mean: "...but still different than just adjusting the ffb master accordingly."

i think i need some help here... following your conversation it seems to me that you're saying changing SG (like a master "volume knob") leads to a different result than using GM FFB to make the FFB signal simply stronger or weaker. (to put it profanely). I know with Fanatec wheels it's a different issue, so let's leave them aside here.

So e.g. SG 1.20 x GM FFB 60 (0.6) = 0.72 ≠ SG 0.90 x GM FFB 80 (0.8) ? You know i know that SG is before HUD and GM FFB after HUD. Also that you can lift the signal with SG into the clipping zone (shows in HUD), while lifting GM FFB doesn't have to lead to clipping at wheel side necessarily. But beside that, both scalers work both linear, aren't they? (Of course as long as you don't use SG to lift the signal into clip.)

Or are you tweaking SG minimally around plus/minus 1.00 as a kind of "fine-tuning", actually in terms of nudging the signal very slightly into the clipping zone or out of it? Meaning you position the signal's peaks with the help of SG into this narrow area where the visual HUD control simply is too vague to give a valid info about clipping? So you keep all your settings with their inherit balances the same and just kind of push the signal in little increments until you can feel "it was too much now"?

Or, do you actually think by increasing SG you can kind of "widen" the dynamic range", or some other non-linear behavior?

P.S.: And good luck with racing tonight. ...let us happy easter campers out of home know about the outcome of the races...

Well after 2 days of trying it both ways I'm leaving it at 1.00. But yes it does lead to a different result. Sg seems to add a lot weight to the wheel which doesn't help you to a point. It seems to me at least with the t300 you loose a lot of important detail above sg 1.0. The balance between feeling tire grip and the other forces seems to get thrown way off. Obviously if you raise sg your going to have to lower the master which we know but reversing these two settings doesn't have the same effect. I don't know if at 1.20 the wheel is getting saturated ? I know its been said who cares if the forces we really don't care about clip so you can raise the forces you want to feel but I'm not sure it actually works that way at this point. At 1.0 you will have a small amount of room left in the hud with an occasional force hitting the top with it at 1.20 alot hit the top but don't show clipping. No actual flat lines. Even raising it to sg1.02 it starts to feel strangely heavy. From what I can tell at this point you are better off leaving some room for the forces you want to feel and raise the master. Now maybe with the v2 they can get away with it. I was really happy with it at sg 1.0 I only asked when Haiden posted his and being so close had to ask how come? Youll have to try it with sg set to 1.0 and 1.20 youll see what I mean.

morpwr
27-03-2016, 15:55
What i found with the Latest Tweek settings is that if i Reduce RAC to stay below the Clipping Zone... I start at In car Masters 100 and i can Raise the In Car Masters per car and Get Much Better Road Feel without getting a Heavy Wheel!!! and without the Fear of Clipping.

The Stronger FFB will be Felt any way but some of the Finer Finer Forces get Lost in the Clipping Zone when the FFB spike Tips get cut off.. IMO Lower RAC is the New way to go.

I'm really starting to think that is 100 percent correct. Any clipping is forces lost even if part of the waveform is still there or it just gets reproduced into something that isn't useful to us.

GrimeyDog
27-03-2016, 18:07
I'm really starting to think that is 100 percent correct. Any clipping is forces lost even if part of the waveform is still there or it just gets reproduced into something that isn't useful to us.


Have you tried My latest settings yet??? The 100 car masters work great with any car then you just raise it until the Car feels right to you... it can also be lowered according to your wheel or if you just want Less FFB:yes:

But Remember if your Not using a V2 you still have to set your GM FFB according to your wheel for at the wheel Strength and weight that feels good... i suggest doing it with your favorite that you know well to get the wheel weight and FFB power you like then just + or - the in car Masters to set every other car.

Edit: Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SoP are set the way i Like them to Feel you CAN adjust these settings to your Own personal liking and adjust the Masters to Bring out the Feel thats best for you:yes:

As Long as Nothing Changes with the FFB system this Tweek may be the End of the FFB Tweeker road for Me:victorious: I can Now Start Car Suspension Tweeking:yes:

Haiden
27-03-2016, 23:40
Well after 2 days of trying it both ways I'm leaving it at 1.00. But yes it does lead to a different result. Sg seems to add a lot weight to the wheel which doesn't help you to a point. It seems to me at least with the t300 you loose a lot of important detail above sg 1.0. The balance between feeling tire grip and the other forces seems to get thrown way off. Obviously if you raise sg your going to have to lower the master which we know but reversing these two settings doesn't have the same effect. I don't know if at 1.20 the wheel is getting saturated ? I know its been said who cares if the forces we really don't care about clip so you can raise the forces you want to feel but I'm not sure it actually works that way at this point. At 1.0 you will have a small amount of room left in the hud with an occasional force hitting the top with it at 1.20 alot hit the top but don't show clipping. No actual flat lines. Even raising it to sg1.02 it starts to feel strangely heavy. From what I can tell at this point you are better off leaving some room for the forces you want to feel and raise the master. Now maybe with the v2 they can get away with it. I was really happy with it at sg 1.0 I only asked when Haiden posted his and being so close had to ask how come? Youll have to try it with sg set to 1.0 and 1.20 youll see what I mean.

Nope... Higher SG definitely affects the v2s the same way. This morning, after coming to the game fresh, I felt the different and dropped SG from 1.15 to 1.10 for that reason. It's the subtle feeling of tire slip that gets lost with the higher SG values. My guess is, it's different for v2 users on PC, where the FFB is more detailed than it is on consoles. Otherwise, I'm sure Jack would be able to feel the difference (his settings have it at 1.45). On console (with similar globals), there's no way you can run SG above 1.20 without sacrificing a lot of slip feel. Not sure if I can go down to 1.00. For right now, that's a little too light for me.

poirqc
28-03-2016, 01:21
Nope... Higher SG definitely affects the v2s the same way. This morning, after coming to the game fresh, I felt the different and dropped SG from 1.15 to 1.10 for that reason. It's the subtle feeling of tire slip that gets lost with the higher SG values. My guess is, it's different for v2 users on PC, where the FFB is more detailed than it is on consoles. Otherwise, I'm sure Jack would be able to feel the difference (his settings have it at 1.45). On console (with similar globals), there's no way you can run SG above 1.20 without sacrificing a lot of slip feel. Not sure if I can go down to 1.00. For right now, that's a little too light for me.

It's also true with TF. With default Car FFB + mostly default globals, understeering is hard to distingish. Lowering TF to 80, you get a wheel that is almost the same "weight" but understeer can express itself more "visibly".

gotdirt410sprintcar
28-03-2016, 04:18
Its funny we all say, i'm done with my globals but we all keep tweeking something then most likely put it all back where it was before lmao.

The new FFB guide is Here. click on it tell if it works lol

Jack Spade
28-03-2016, 06:58
Nope... Higher SG definitely affects the v2s the same way. This morning, after coming to the game fresh, I felt the different and dropped SG from 1.15 to 1.10 for that reason. It's the subtle feeling of tire slip that gets lost with the higher SG values. My guess is, it's different for v2 users on PC, where the FFB is more detailed than it is on consoles. Otherwise, I'm sure Jack would be able to feel the difference (his settings have it at 1.45). On console (with similar globals), there's no way you can run SG above 1.20 without sacrificing a lot of slip feel. Not sure if I can go down to 1.00. For right now, that's a little too light for me.

SG at 145 in order to compensate the combo of Car Scales * TF 75 and Scoops 86/28. Actually Iīm on the alternative CSW v2 - Dri=off, PWM/PWMS, No Scoops setting that
requires a much lower SG level of just 105. Although itīs a much different setting the impression isnīt too far apart from each other. Amplifying FFB with SG or FOR on the
CSW v2 causes a non linear response as stronger forces get more stronger than lower ones, Skoader wrote about it some time ago, so from this perspective the feel
will always be somewhat different with different SG levels besides the change of level as such.

BigDad
28-03-2016, 07:11
Its funny we all say, i'm done with my globals but we all keep tweeking something then most likely put it all back where it was before lmao.

The new FFB guide is Here. click on it tell if it works lol
Nothing Mate ?

GrimeyDog
28-03-2016, 10:27
I'm really starting to think that is 100 percent correct. Any clipping is forces lost even if part of the waveform is still there or it just gets reproduced into something that isn't useful to us.

FFB Tweeking is Very Car and Track dependent...Driving the Gt3 Ruf on Watkings i can get Sooo Much FFB and Road feel it can feel like a Earth Quake!!! Then Drive Ford Falcon V8 Super Car and Nothing i tweek can get the Same or Similar Road Feel... The Car Has Road Feel but Feels Very Floaty with Very Subtle Road/Bump Feel.

Nubergring GP/ Spa with the Gt3 Ruf and Same FFB the Car Has Good Weight Transfer but the Tracks are just too Smooth to give the same Road Feel as Watkins... Even the Curbs on those tracks give very Light Feel... Driving those tracks seem more like driving from instict and just Knowing the Track Line than driving by Car Feel.

Different Car Track Combos will Make you think the FFB is Not set right but its Not.

PureMalt77
28-03-2016, 10:47
FFB Tweeking is Very Car and Track dependent...Driving the Gt3 Ruf on Watkings i can get Sooo Much FFB and Road feel it can feel like a Earth Quake!!! Then Drive Ford Falcon V8 Super Car and Nothing i tweek can get the Same or Similar Road Feel... The Car Has Road Feel but Feels Very Floaty with Very Subtle Road/Bump Feel.

Nubergring GP/ Spa with the Gt3 Ruf and Same FFB the Car Has Good Weight Transfer but the Tracks are just too Smooth to give the same Road Feel as Watkins... Even the Curbs on those tracks give very Light Feel... Driving those tracks seem more like driving from instict and just Knowing the Track Line than driving by Car Feel.

Different Car Track Combos will Make you think the FFB is Not set right but its Not.

But don't forget each car is different! The V8 is heavier, less braking power, overall a racing car with "less technology" than the GT3, and will again feel different than road cars or open wheelers. I think you are trying to "feel" the road the same way in every car you drive, and this concept is not really right.

PureMalt77
28-03-2016, 10:54
Good luck with the experiment. You can run the gain at 1.0 or 1.20 its not a huge difference but still different just adjust the ffb master accordingly.
So my friend, I had 2 marvelous races yesterday using your settings 1:1.

In comparison to mine: they are way lighter, I tried to adapt to it, and after 2x 1h race was not bad at all. I could raise the GM FFB a bit probably to max 75, but feels great the way it is. I need to see if raising only the GM FFB will disrupt anything else.

The main difference now comes to how I feel tire wear comparing to my settings. In mine, it almost feels I have better grip in the cold lap out of the pits than later, or feels the same for the next laps, until tires degrade.
With your settings, I have the perfect sense of cold, warm, used tires, and for yesterday's race that was totally crucial.

Also, your settings are more "generic" to every car IMO. Mine were working good on certain cars, but I saw myself having to tweak many cars to bring it to function. Being lazy as I am, I just wanna feed JS classic settings an hit "Drive"...

Will keep using them for a while in real races. Running a 10 lap trial on a single track/car is no way to measure...

GrimeyDog
28-03-2016, 11:03
But don't forget each car is different! The V8 is heavier, less braking power, overall a racing car with "less technology" than the GT3, and will again feel different than road cars or open wheelers. I think you are trying to "feel" the road the same way in every car you drive, and this concept is not really right.

Yes Very True... Not trying to get feel the same feel from every car im just Noting that some cars have Much lighter FFB feel than others.. That can set you back on the Tweeking path... i know its Not the FFB Tweek when FFB feel is light is just different car track combos that change the FFB feel. Some Tracks/Cars have much More feel than others.

morpwr
28-03-2016, 11:32
Nope... Higher SG definitely affects the v2s the same way. This morning, after coming to the game fresh, I felt the different and dropped SG from 1.15 to 1.10 for that reason. It's the subtle feeling of tire slip that gets lost with the higher SG values. My guess is, it's different for v2 users on PC, where the FFB is more detailed than it is on consoles. Otherwise, I'm sure Jack would be able to feel the difference (his settings have it at 1.45). On console (with similar globals), there's no way you can run SG above 1.20 without sacrificing a lot of slip feel. Not sure if I can go down to 1.00. For right now, that's a little too light for me.

Ok i was starting to think I was the only one that could feel it. I found the ffb master helps a lot with getting the weight back but its a small window that feels right. Just a couple clicks too high or low and you loose the cornering weight or it gets too heavy all the time. The other thing that happens is tire scrub gets lost and the brake feel isn't as good with the gain turned up. I

Haiden
28-03-2016, 11:32
Its funny we all say, i'm done with my globals but we all keep tweeking something then most likely put it all back where it was before lmao.

The new FFB guide is Here. click on it tell if it works lol

No, I'm done. I'm just trying to decide between 3 values for one scale. I just don't go back and forth in the globals, which is why is taking a while. I'm just racing now. I'll settle on a value for that one scale, eventually. I narrowed it down to a 5 increment range. :) To me, that's a far cry from being in the rabbit hole. :)


FFB Tweeking is Very Car and Track dependent...Driving the Gt3 Ruf on Watkings i can get Sooo Much FFB and Road feel it can feel like a Earth Quake!!! Then Drive Ford Falcon V8 Super Car and Nothing i tweek can get the Same or Similar Road Feel... The Car Has Road Feel but Feels Very Floaty with Very Subtle Road/Bump Feel.

Nubergring GP/ Spa with the Gt3 Ruf and Same FFB the Car Has Good Weight Transfer but the Tracks are just too Smooth to give the same Road Feel as Watkins... Even the Curbs on those tracks give very Light Feel... Driving those tracks seem more like driving from instict and just Knowing the Track Line than driving by Car Feel.

Different Car Track Combos will Make you think the FFB is Not set right but its Not.

I wouldn't say FFB tuning is car/track specific. You just need to tune on multiple tracks. I still have great FFB on smooth tracks. I don't feel as much grit and texture from the surface, but grip and slip come through just the same. That's why I prefer tuning on smoother tracks, because if you can get the feel there, you know it'll be there on the rougher tracks. But if you tune on the rough tracks first, you don't bring out the subtleties to the same degree, because they're easier to feel on a rough track.

The Ford Falcon feels like a boat, until you tighten the suspension. The default springs and AR are too soft for that car.

Haiden
28-03-2016, 11:37
SG at 145 in order to compensate the combo of Car Scales * TF 75 and Scoops 86/28. Actually Iīm on the alternative CSW v2 - Dri=off, PWM/PWMS, No Scoops setting that
requires a much lower SG level of just 105. Although itīs a much different setting the impression isnīt too far apart from each other. Amplifying FFB with SG or FOR on the
CSW v2 causes a non linear response as stronger forces get more stronger than lower ones, Skoader wrote about it some time ago, so from this perspective the feel
will always be somewhat different with different SG levels besides the change of level as such.

Oh, I understood that logic. But I think there's a difference in FFB between PC and console (PS4), because SG=1.45 just doesn't feel as good as SG values 1.00-1.10. Sucks, but PC seems to have more detail in the FFB range.

Edit: I tried the no Scoop version, but it felt like I was loosing some tire slip feeling. I kept the PWM/PWMS settings in lieu of Dri, and went back to the 86/28 Scoop. I've been dialing in SG with those global settings, narrowing the gap between 1.00 and 1.20. I'm at 1.08 now, and I think that's the sweet spot for me.

morpwr
28-03-2016, 11:37
So my friend, I had 2 marvelous races yesterday using your settings 1:1.

In comparison to mine: they are way lighter, I tried to adapt to it, and after 2x 1h race was not bad at all. I could raise the GM FFB a bit probably to max 75, but feels great the way it is. I need to see if raising only the GM FFB will disrupt anything else.

The main difference now comes to how I feel tire wear comparing to my settings. In mine, it almost feels I have better grip in the cold lap out of the pits than later, or feels the same for the next laps, until tires degrade.
With your settings, I have the perfect sense of cold, warm, used tires, and for yesterday's race that was totally crucial.

Also, your settings are more "generic" to every car IMO. Mine were working good on certain cars, but I saw myself having to tweak many cars to bring it to function. Being lazy as I am, I just wanna feed JS classic settings an hit "Drive"...

Will keep using them for a while in real races. Running a 10 lap trial on a single track/car is no way to measure...

That's what I was after something that work well for all the cars and felt realistic at least to me. You should be able too turn up the master without any problems I think. Glad you like them.

GrimeyDog
28-03-2016, 13:10
Oh, I understood that logic. But I think there's a difference in FFB between PC and console (PS4), because SG=1.45 just doesn't feel as good as SG values 1.00-1.10. Sucks, but PC seems to have more detail in the FFB range.

Thats because PC has that Extra FFB Control setting... The Full SG 145 is Not Getting through... if it were it would Clip and feel would get lost.

Haiden
28-03-2016, 14:36
Thats because PC has that Extra FFB Control setting... The Full SG 145 is Not Getting through... if it were it would Clip and feel would get lost.

I don't think that's the case. I asked Jack about his control panel settings when I first started tuning from his original global base. He said both his control panel and @wheel FF were set to 100. The only thing he lowered @wheel was Spr, which was set to 50. When I ran SG@1.45 with his original globals, there was no clipping in the telemetry, but I felt like I was feeling some in the wheel, so I lowered it. If there was clipping, it was extremely minute; I was never 100% sure. Since PC FFB is different, there probably isn't any with the PC/CSW-v2 combo. His original settings were also using DRI, though. But again, I wasn't see any clipping in the telemetry.

GrimeyDog
28-03-2016, 14:59
Steering Gain is the last in the chain so it may Not Clip in telemetry but IMO will clip at the wheel...

IMO its Too Strong thats why you Need to Reduce the SPR and use DRI to help to turn the wheel... Ive tried it and Didn't Like it just feels better to Me to leave wheel at Default Values and Balance the Game Settings...Every 1 is different so if it feels good to you then it is good:yes:

I find RAC 75 and adjusting in Car Masters Per Car much easier to deal with the wheel weight Variations between Cars.... a few Clicks + or - and wheel weight with Balanced FFB forces can be set for any car :cool:

Edit: There is No Right there is No Wrong FFB Tweek...There is only what feels Good per individual user... Thats what Matters Most:yes:

Krus Control
28-03-2016, 17:21
I don't think that's the case. I asked Jack about his control panel settings when I first started tuning from his original global base. He said both his control panel and @wheel FF were set to 100. The only thing he lowered @wheel was Spr, which was set to 50. When I ran SG@1.45 with his original globals, there was no clipping in the telemetry, but I felt like I was feeling some in the wheel, so I lowered it. If there was clipping, it was extremely minute; I was never 100% sure. Since PC FFB is different, there probably isn't any with the PC/CSW-v2 combo. His original settings were also using DRI, though. But again, I wasn't see any clipping in the telemetry.

At least for Thrustmaster wheels the control panel in Windows adds some flexibility. I don't know about if more detail is possible, but definitely more options. I, for instance, have spring and damping gain at 0% in my control panel and only use the constant force. This makes a big difference in the nature of the ffb and it feels more fluent to me than when the forces mix on top of each other. But I'm sure you can get it to feel basically the same with just the settings in PCARS. From the last telemetry video I saw Grimey post I would say that he has.

Haiden
28-03-2016, 17:37
Steering Gain is the last in the chain so it may Not Clip in telemetry but IMO will clip at the wheel...

IMO its Too Strong thats why you Need to Reduce the SPR and use DRI to help to turn the wheel... Ive tried it and Didn't Like it just feels better to Me to leave wheel at Default Values and Balance the Game Settings...Every 1 is different so if it feels good to you then it is good:yes:

I find RAC 75 and adjusting in Car Masters Per Car much easier to deal with the wheel weight Variations between Cars.... a few Clicks + or - and wheel weight with Balanced FFB forces can be set for any car :cool:

Edit: There is No Right there is No Wrong FFB Tweek...There is only what feels Good per individual user... Thats what Matters Most:yes:

Yeah... it was too heavy for me, too. I'm using Jack's in-car settings, and with my current globals, I don't even have to make any adjustments to his scales, even the Masters are fine. I first tried his in-car settings back when the game released, and I was using a TM wheel. They felt okay, but not great. Not sure why I stopped using them. I think it was more because I was looking for a one-size-fits-all tune. My globals were also much different back then, so that was probably a factor, as well. But now, his in-car settings feel fantastic. I'm sure SMS' tire model changes are also a contributing factor. I hope they're done making changes in that area, because this model feels spot on.

Haiden
28-03-2016, 22:04
At least for Thrustmaster wheels the control panel in Windows adds some flexibility. I don't know about if more detail is possible, but definitely more options. I, for instance, have spring and damping gain at 0% in my control panel and only use the constant force. This makes a big difference in the nature of the ffb and it feels more fluent to me than when the forces mix on top of each other. But I'm sure you can get it to feel basically the same with just the settings in PCARS. From the last telemetry video I saw Grimey post I would say that he has.

I agree. The external control panels offer more options and sometimes different ways to achieve the same result. I also think external controls can sometimes be cleaner/more efficient regarding how they handle the signal, just my IMO, though. If I had an Accuforce wheel, I'd love to be able to use SimCommander to dial the FFB to perfection. They say it offers an amazing level of control to enhance the game's output.

morpwr
28-03-2016, 23:28
But don't forget each car is different! The V8 is heavier, less braking power, overall a racing car with "less technology" than the GT3, and will again feel different than road cars or open wheelers. I think you are trying to "feel" the road the same way in every car you drive, and this concept is not really right.

Exactly and some tracks are just smooth so depending on the car it just wont have a lot of road feel.

morpwr
28-03-2016, 23:35
No I'm done. Just mine and haidens settings where so close I had to ask and recheck my findings. Luckily we both came to the same conclusion. No more rabbit hole for me.

morpwr
28-03-2016, 23:37
Nothing Mate ?

Its all here you just have to look through 249 pages.:rolleyes:

morpwr
29-03-2016, 00:03
I have a question. What are we going to do now that we have our settings? Well besides getting some laps in.

Krus Control
29-03-2016, 01:31
I have a question. What are we going to do now that we have our settings? Well besides getting some laps in.

Start a laptime competition?

Haiden
29-03-2016, 01:38
I have a question. What are we going to do now that we have our settings? Well besides getting some laps in.

Race! Hopefully, they get the disconnect issue resolved, so we can start taking points seriously.

We could also start a tuning and race craft thread, similar to this one, and share tips.

gotdirt410sprintcar
29-03-2016, 02:43
Nothing Mate ?
Seriously man it wasn't there lol. I was just thinking about vettel saying seriously you think you should slow down to nico at the 2015 Australian post race lol funny stuff

PureMalt77
29-03-2016, 10:23
Race! Hopefully, they get the disconnect issue resolved, so we can start taking points seriously.

We could also start a tuning and race craft thread, similar to this one, and share tips.

That would be an excellent idea!
Some settings are pretty much clear, especially if you are using some telemetry app.
For suspension there is the whole calculator thingy.
But others, is pretty much trial and error for me...

GrimeyDog
29-03-2016, 11:00
To date i have Not tuned any Cars!!!... The Car tuning will be a Bigger Head ache than the FFB!!!

Also as the FFB mystery unravels more questions arise??? I always looked at car Masters as 100 being 100% power output and anything over 100 as overdrive...Im Not too sure about that Now...its starting to seem that its just a Volume control with really fine adjustments and 200 = 100% power output:confused: Hmmm

The only thing im reasonably sure about ATM is that for Me Lower RAC (75) seems to be the way to go because even at 200 car Masters i get No Clipping with the Fine or Strong Forces... I dont have any car using 200 masters its Not Needed... But i Now use the Masters per Car to + or - the FFB per car until it feels right without the side effect of the wheel getting Heavy and over powered:yes:

It serves to Reason that if all these settings were pre set and Not available for us to tweek that Not all Cars would have the same Masters... some would be set Higher/ Lower than others to give the cars Heavy or lighter feel:yes:

I got board so i went back in My Global settings and put back My Prior Global settings and was able to get better Subtle Road feel than i had before because due to the RAC 75 im well below the Clipping Range.... Seems that when the top of the FFB spikes get Cut off you lose the Crisp Sharpness of the FFB Feel... Yes you still feel the effects when the FFB tips get cut but your losing the Crisp FFB detail that is in the Tip... Just Fine tuning the Latest Tweek going through all the settings trying to settle on a Final Version:very_drunk:

But im Very Happy with this latest Tweeker Path the Results are very Inspiring... This is whats causing Me to keep digging to get it perfected:p

Random thoughts...Random Tweeking before bed time... thats when i usually come up with Random Tweeker Ideas that keep Me up Later than i Need to be... :D

Hmmm... I wonder when Assetto corsa comes out will we still Tweek and Play Pcars???

Haiden
29-03-2016, 11:43
That would be an excellent idea!
Some settings are pretty much clear, especially if you are using some telemetry app.
For suspension there is the whole calculator thingy.
But others, is pretty much trial and error for me...

I haven't tried any of the calculators. But as far as suspension goes, I mainly stick to the basics--springs, roll bars, and ride height, camber, etc. Occasionally, I'll make small adjustments to the Fast Rebound for bumpy tracks, where the need (and effect) are obvious, but pretty much everything else on that page is a mystery to me.


Tobdate i have Not tuned any Cars!!!... The Car tuning will be a Bigger Head ache than the FFB!!!

You think? At least with tuning, there's no mystery as to what things do, and your changes are easier to assess and pretty immediate. They either improve your lap times or they don't. Not to mention the fact, that you don't have to leave the session to make the changes (except for steering ration). Some changes you can even make while you're on track if you map the buttons. :) FFB tuning was just nebulous, and I often found it hard to assess the results of the changes.

Car tuning is fun, because you're building your garage. It's great having a car dialed in and ready race or practice on a specific track. :)

tennenbaum
29-03-2016, 15:17
To date i have Not tuned any Cars!!!... The Car tuning will be a Bigger Head ache than the FFB!!!

Also as the FFB mystery unravels more questions arise??? I always looked at car Masters as 100 being 100% power output and anything over 100 as overdrive...Im Not too sure about that Now...its starting to seem that its just a Volume control with really fine adjustments and 200 = 100% power output:confused: Hmmm

The only thing im reasonably sure about ATM is that for Me Lower RAC (75) seems to be the way to go because even at 200 car Masters i get No Clipping with the Fine or Strong Forces... I dont have any car using 200 masters its Not Needed... But i Now use the Masters per Car to + or - the FFB per car until it feels right without the side effect of the wheel getting Heavy and over powered:yes:

It serves to Reason that if all these settings were pre set and Not available for us to tweek that Not all Cars would have the same Masters... some would be set Higher/ Lower than others to give the cars Heavy or lighter feel:yes:

I got board so i went back in My Global settings and put back My Prior Global settings and was able to get better Subtle Road feel than i had before because due to the RAC 75 im well below the Clipping Range.... Seems that when the top of the FFB spikes get Cut off you lose the Crisp Sharpness of the FFB Feel... Yes you still feel the effects when the FFB tips get cut but your losing the Crisp FFB detail that is in the Tip... Just Fine tuning the Latest Tweek going through all the settings trying to settle on a Final Version:very_drunk:

But im Very Happy with this latest Tweeker Path the Results are very Inspiring... This is whats causing Me to keep digging to get it perfected:p

Random thoughts...Random Tweeking before bed time... thats when i usually come up with Random Tweeker Ideas that keep Me up Later than i Need to be... :D

Hmmm... I wonder when Assetto corsa comes out will we still Tweek and Play Pcars???

FxyzMz, SoP diff and lat, TF and in-car masters are simple multipliers, in so far it doesn't matter if you raise such scalers >100, up to 200. It's the result of the multiplication that matters. In many of my posts i lied out how it works. It can be easily proven (by turning off RAGBC and SC). Though, - i know - this simple math never got really popular ;)

BTW: In the meantime I tested your RAC 75 setting. I like that the wheel got a bit lighter. Still, the setting carries your typical "GrimeyDog-Signature" :D A lot of saturation, which gives a pretty constant wheel weight during cornering, plus a lot of road feel sensations. (For those who doubt my fresh verdict about the saturation: Turn the clamp of the RAGBC module off, then lower the masters until the signal get out of the clipping zone, by the amount of reduction of the master(s) you see how much the signal got strongly compressed, which leads to saturation, here at an output value of around 0.75, see telemetry...)

Besides: I guess the FFB discussion didn't come to an end yet... ... i was glad with my pure analytic "no compression" setting, but due to its lack of any saturation i didn't have a at least a bit of realistic wheel weight during cornering... So i recalled everything i learned about the FFB (especially Fz counteracting Fy, SoP and Mz) --- and turned everything else off, except Fy, keeping RAG at 135, and RAB 0.06, RAC 2.00, i leveled Fy to max 1.00, set my GM FFB to 80 (for my T300) --- and voilā: great pure steering feeling, great drifting, great steering balance e.g. for the long sweeper after Bus Stop at Watkins Glen Short... And my fastest lap-time so far on my Watkins Short reference track. Of course: No feel of finishing line white paint..., but when you get used to the experiment (!) you will wonder how much road feel and details are communicated by Fy only! You will also see how correct and logical the mechanical set up (caster, camber, toe) is simulated... It's a bit like having a sip of water, before sipping different wine tastes again. If you wanna try just make sure you set RAC to 2.00, turn SC off and avoid any clipping. Otherwise it won't work...

konnos
29-03-2016, 15:46
What is the benefit of using RAC to contain the forces if you are going to use high car master scales? I m asking because i read one of your posts tennenbaum about putting RAC to 2.00 just to see what the "pure" force actually is. And I left it at that and only put SG to 1.00 and no clipping for me. Do i gain something by having a pure force or would i benefit from a higher TF or car scale and lowering RAC?

Haiden
29-03-2016, 16:21
BTW: In the meantime I tested your RAC 75 setting. I like that the wheel got a bit lighter. Still, the setting carries your typical "GrimeyDog-Signature" :D A lot of saturation, which gives a pretty constant wheel weight during cornering, plus a lot of road feel sensations. (For those who doubt my fresh verdict about the saturation: Turn the clamp of the RAGBC module off, then lower the masters until the signal get out of the clipping zone, by the amount of reduction of the master(s) you see how much the signal got strongly compressed, which leads to saturation, here at an output value of around 0.75, see telemetry...)

I tried the RAC=0.75, but didn't use your testing method. I just simply changed the RAC and kept my other settings the same. I ran a few laps on Silverstone, which is a fairly smooth track. First lap, by the end of sector one, I realized I had lost a lot of subtle tire slip feeling. Based on some of your previous posts, I assumed it was due to the clamp compression. I normally run RAC=0.85; lowering it those 10 increments increased the compression saturation enough to drown out the tire slip.

Edit: It always comes down to preference. But, for me, if I can't feel the subtle slip, I tend to overdrive the car and after a few laps, my tires are on fire. It's actually not a bad thing for hot lapping, and I admit I'm often faster when I can't feel the subtleties, but for racing, it's not a sustainable pace. IMO, being able to feel that subtle slip is critical for tire management.

tennenbaum
29-03-2016, 17:26
What is the benefit of using RAC to contain the forces if you are going to use high car master scales? I m asking because i read one of your posts tennenbaum about putting RAC to 2.00 just to see what the "pure" force actually is. And I left it at that and only put SG to 1.00 and no clipping for me. Do i gain something by having a pure force or would i benefit from a higher TF or car scale and lowering RAC?


You're benefitting from RAC when you use high car master scales in so far that you actually need RAC necessarily to normalize the high signal due to high masters into the "normal" operation range in which the FFB signal chain works before outputting the signal to the steering wheel. That process/procedure means the signal gets "compressed" (Non-linear I/= curve, that flattens on top, not to be mistaken with clipping). Since most set their tire forces quite high, without RAC the signal would clip... see a more elaborate explanation following here:

By setting RAC to 2.00 / or alternatively turning the entire RAG/RAB/RAC module off (and Softclipper off!) you can see in the HUD how strong your signal really is (as a result of FxyzMz x spindle master scale x TF). With some settings around here by switching these "signal-compressors" off, you will very likely see the signal clip. So by the amount of reducing the signal with your masters and/or FxyzMz and therefore getting the signal out of the clipping you see how much the signal got compressed before. Be aware setting RAC to 2.00 doesn't switch its compressor function off, it just sets its soft limiting to the output value 2.0,so it can still clipp if you don't make sure that the signal that gets fed to RAG/RAB/RAC module is not higher than 1.00.

Though, be aware these brief comments from me here are difficult to "read" without having the signal chain in connection with the input/output (I/O) curve/functionality in front of your mental eye...

The reason why i called my "Let's talk about FFB..." experimental was, that i was under the impression that most people take the RAC compression so much for a (default) given, that they never experienced the "true" signal as delivered "raw" from pCars physic system and pCars FFB system. Once you experience this raw signal, and then checking out Fx Fy Fz Mz and SoP lat and SoP diff separately (by isolating them by setting the other sliders to zero) you will get a much better idea what's really going on with your FFB, and your FFB mix adding forces step by step. Since everybody uses RAC (which is the main reason that you get some constant weight wheel during cornering, which most people wish and expect) they're all used to the compression effect that comes with RAC automatically. (Except you set RAC >1 and making sure you don't get signals >1 before they reach the RAGBC module). When you try to reproduce what i'm speaking here about, I'd recommend you set SG to 1.00, since it's not fully known yet if SG works linear or not. You may also have difficulties to experiment with the "pure" signal, when you are not aware that FxyzMz, TF, spindle master scale, and accordingly SoP forces, are just linear multipliers... (see former posts from me.)

Have fun with fiddling around, but forget everything here I said here when you get the feeling you run into a dead end. It's not worth a headache... I started my "thinking out of the box" FFB experiments quite a while ago and spread over many and lengthy posts - just for the fun of it, rather not for being good references for the common criteria of maximum vividness, realism, road feel, etc...

Generally speaking: I never wanted to come up with an FFB cook book with instant ready made recipies. Instead i wanted to have a more fundamental / theoretical look at the different elements of the FFB so everybody can draw his own conclusions and optimizing his own settings. E.g. Jack Spade delivers ready-made setting-recommendations based on his deep knowledge about the FFB (without much talking about how he comes to these findings. Which is fully ok, btw.). In contrary Poirqc for example didn't recommend any settings but did a hell of a work by making the different FFB components comprehensive...