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Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 08:59
So I was doing a bit of Career racing yesterday in LMP2 Championship at SPA. I was in Alpine A450, and I found really difficult to take the last S chicane without spinning.. It is so tricky there, you have to be so gentle on the throttle and steering as if you go a bit aggressive it just spins you out. GT3 and most other cars are fine there, but in LMP2 I was really struggling lol. Still came 1st and finished the season 1st by 3 points, but everytime I was coming to that chicane my heart was nearly popping out :D

Anyone else find that chicane tricky in some cars?

morpwr
14-06-2016, 11:07
I turned the scoops off too but I did not like it but I didn't give it much time. And I might go back too using soft clipper again. I always liked it anyway force's are not so high and details are better if you get it right.

Our wheels aren't very linear like the way Haiden has his set up. So we are kind of stuck using something to make them more linear.

Haiden
14-06-2016, 11:30
So I was doing a bit of Career racing yesterday in LMP2 Championship at SPA. I was in Alpine A450, and I found really difficult to take the last S chicane without spinning.. It is so tricky there, you have to be so gentle on the throttle and steering as if you go a bit aggressive it just spins you out. GT3 and most other cars are fine there, but in LMP2 I was really struggling lol. Still came 1st and finished the season 1st by 3 points, but everytime I was coming to that chicane my heart was nearly popping out :D

Anyone else find that chicane tricky in some cars?

I've driven quite a few cars at Spa, but not the LMP2. That's chicane is always a spin hazard, but easier to avoid in some cars more than others. Check your downshifting. If you downshift too quickly, or in the chicane when the car's weight is shifting, that can also cause you to spin.

Haiden
14-06-2016, 11:39
Our wheels aren't very linear like the way Haiden has his set up. So we are kind of stuck using something to make them more linear.

That's the thing. The recommended Scoop settings do make my wheel more linear (screen #1), but the default curve isn't that far off to begin with (screen #2). If the default regression was higher or the curve not as subtle/smooth, I'd have to use the Scoops.

Recommended Scoop Settings
234380


DRR Only, No Scoops
234379


The FFB actually feels a lot better with the Scoops disabled. All of the forces are stronger and communicated more clearly. I don't know why, but I feel a higher degree of fidelity without the Scoops.

oege
14-06-2016, 11:50
The FFB actually feels a lot better with the Scoops disabled. All of the forces are stronger and communicated more clearly. I don't know why, but I feel a higher degree of fidelity without the Scoops.
... and soft clip 1.0 (Full) like in your Screen? or 0 ?

morpwr
14-06-2016, 11:55
... and soft clip 1.0 (Full) like in your Screen? or 0 ?

That's actually not doing anything set like that. That's just the way the fcm sets it.

morpwr
14-06-2016, 12:16
That's the thing. The recommended Scoop settings do make my wheel more linear (screen #1), but the default curve isn't that far off to begin with (screen #2). If the default regression was higher or not as subtle/smooth, I'd have to use the Scoops.

Recommended Scoop Settings
234380[/ATTA
DRR Only, No Scoops
[ATTACH=CONFIG]234379


The FFB actually feels a lot better with the Scoops disabled. All of the forces are stronger and communicated more clearly. I don't know why, but I feel a higher degree of fidelity without the Scoops.

The t300 isn't any wheres near that linear without scoops.lol Even with scoops it doesn't get that close.

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 12:27
I've driven quite a few cars at Spa, but not the LMP2. That's chicane is always a spin hazard, but easier to avoid in some cars more than others. Check your downshifting. If you downshift too quickly, or in the chicane when the car's weight is shifting, that can also cause you to spin.

Yes, just sometimes it feels a bit unrealistic, like you're suddenly on ice :) I downshift at normal speed, even a bit earlier before that chicane just so I'm ready to take it at the steady speed :) I love SPA, but that chicane in LMP2 can be a bit annoying..

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 12:28
That's the thing. The recommended Scoop settings do make my wheel more linear (screen #1), but the default curve isn't that far off to begin with (screen #2). If the default regression was higher or not as subtle/smooth, I'd have to use the Scoops.

Recommended Scoop Settings
234380


DRR Only, No Scoops
234379


The FFB actually feels a lot better with the Scoops disabled. All of the forces are stronger and communicated more clearly. I don't know why, but I feel a higher degree of fidelity without the Scoops.

WOW! Your wheels is very linear, even to start with it's more linear than mine after adding Scoops :)

Haiden
14-06-2016, 12:42
... and soft clip 1.0 (Full) like in your Screen? or 0 ?


That's actually not doing anything set like that. That's just the way the fcm sets it.

Exactly. That's just the default that FCM tool shows, but it's basically equates to disabled. In the game, I have both Scoop scales set to zero, though.

GrimeyDog
14-06-2016, 12:42
That's the thing. The recommended Scoop settings do make my wheel more linear (screen #1), but the default curve isn't that far off to begin with (screen #2). If the default regression was higher or not as subtle/smooth, I'd have to use the Scoops.

Recommended Scoop Settings
234380


DRR Only, No Scoops
234379


The FFB actually feels a lot better with the Scoops disabled. All of the forces are stronger and communicated more clearly. I don't know why, but I feel a higher degree of fidelity without the Scoops.

Graph 1 is Very Close to My Hand Tweeked Value of 68/24.... Very interesting.... I tried the calculators over the weekend and got very similar Results... I went back to My #'s though because they fit Me well.

Haiden
14-06-2016, 12:44
Yes, just sometimes it feels a bit unrealistic, like you're suddenly on ice :) I downshift at normal speed, even a bit earlier before that chicane just so I'm ready to take it at the steady speed :) I love SPA, but that chicane in LMP2 can be a bit annoying..

I agree. It's a tricky corner, and when you're sliding, it's harder to detect than it is at other times. It's a very slow corner, though. Check your rear AR bars, too. a click or two softer might help.

Haiden
14-06-2016, 12:46
WOW! Your wheels is very linear, even to start with it's more linear than mine after adding Scoops :)

Yeah... I was surprised, as well. It's really not much to worry about, at least IMO. Its not an abrupt change or deep bow in the curve, so I'm going to just let it be.

morpwr
14-06-2016, 13:29
Yes, just sometimes it feels a bit unrealistic, like you're suddenly on ice :) I downshift at normal speed, even a bit earlier before that chicane just so I'm ready to take it at the steady speed :) I love SPA, but that chicane in LMP2 can be a bit annoying..

Scoops will do that. If they are set too or too low the grip feel will be off. Try the mustang gt at Sonoma short and see how it feels. If it feels like snap oversteer very easily then id look there. Same goes for the focus or clio cup. If the rear feels like it want to come around all the time its scoops.

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 13:55
Scoops will do that. If they are set too or too low the grip feel will be off. Try the mustang gt at Sonoma short and see how it feels. If it feels like snap oversteer very easily then id look there. Same goes for the focus or clio cup. If the rear feels like it want to come around all the time its scoops.

Ok I will try your both recommendations. All other corners are fine, even in other games like F1 2015 if I run a session with no TC I find that corner very tricky. I think what it is, is that in reality it is a slow corner, but when you are in the game it feels like you're going to slow because you have no G forces going through your body and your mind is telling you, yeah you can take this quicker, so I think it's just me to eager to get a quicker lap time.

But I will try your suggesstion and see how it feels. If anything I'm quite happy with my scoops at the moment - I'm running SK 0.77 & SR 0.55 - recommended by FCM tool and few adjustments by feel.

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 13:56
I agree. It's a tricky corner, and when you're sliding, it's harder to detect than it is at other times. It's a very slow corner, though. Check your rear AR bars, too. a click or two softer might help.

Yeah I will look at softening the rear a bit, as I was running default setup. Haven't been playing with car setups too much yet, as most of the time was spent searching for FFB unicorn :)

morpwr
14-06-2016, 14:04
Ok I will try your both recommendations. All other corners are fine, even in other games like F1 2015 if I run a session with no TC I find that corner very tricky. I think what it is, is that in reality it is a slow corner, but when you are in the game it feels like you're going to slow because you have no G forces going through your body and your mind is telling you, yeah you can take this quicker, so I think it's just me to eager to get a quicker lap time.

But I will try your suggesstion and see how it feels. If anything I'm quite happy with my scoops at the moment - I'm running SK 0.77 & SR 0.55 - recommended by FCM tool and few adjustments by feel.

That's possible. Just over driving the corner. But those cars I mentioned will definitely show issues with scoops. Same goes for cold tires if they feel overly slippery that's a good indication something is a little off with the scoops.

poirqc
14-06-2016, 14:07
Graph 1 is Very Close to My Hand Tweeked Value of 68/24.... Very interesting.... I tried the calculators over the weekend and got very similar Results... I went back to My #'s though because they fit Me well.

Admit it, you got your numbers from the tool without ever telling us! :p

The loop is complete! :D

GrimeyDog
14-06-2016, 14:23
Admit it, you got your numbers from the tool without ever telling us! :p

The loop is complete! :D

I wish!!! Infact it may have saved Me alot of time!!!
When i look at My older settings the # Diff is almost Exact!!! when i used RAB 12 or 14.... I used 68/8 and 12!!! that was PDF 7 or 8 i think... The Linear Feel can clearly be felt.... When i Lowerd RAB to 8 it made the wheel center feel Tighter so i Raised the SR to 24 to Loosen up the wheel center a bit... after Reading your thread on Scoops is when i Really Started to set out to fine tune them to get better scoop settings.... Look back at your thread i posted about that in there how your thread Helped Me with Scoops:yes: Maybe 3 or so months ago.


Edit: This is actually a Great thing and Confirms the Tools Can Get you Very Close to a Good Scoop Feel that you can Fine tune by Hand to your personal taste:yes:

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 14:37
That's possible. Just over driving the corner. But those cars I mentioned will definitely show issues with scoops. Same goes for cold tires if they feel overly slippery that's a good indication something is a little off with the scoops.

Ok, I will take that into consideration. Maybe I need to lower my SR a little bit to give me some more low speed feel, as high speed feel is great, even if the rear steps out I'm 95% able to catch it. I will do some more testing..

Should be getting a new 599XX EVO 30 Wheel Add-On Alcantara Edition upgrade this week :)

oege
14-06-2016, 14:37
Here my results with/without scoops (T500 RS)

Calculate Settings
234391

without Scoops
234392

Haiden
14-06-2016, 15:05
Ok I will try your both recommendations. All other corners are fine, even in other games like F1 2015 if I run a session with no TC I find that corner very tricky. I think what it is, is that in reality it is a slow corner, but when you are in the game it feels like you're going to slow because you have no G forces going through your body and your mind is telling you, yeah you can take this quicker, so I think it's just me to eager to get a quicker lap time.

But I will try your suggesstion and see how it feels. If anything I'm quite happy with my scoops at the moment - I'm running SK 0.77 & SR 0.55 - recommended by FCM tool and few adjustments by feel.

I think you're right. The sense of speed is a huge part of it. I used to slide on that corner, too. I started watching my actual speed, and it made sense. The change of direction in that chicane, is pretty quick. You're turning hard right, and then hard left in quick succession. It's possible to start turning left too soon, while the weight of the car is still moving/pressing to the left side from the first right hand turn. If you start turning the wheel left at that point, you're just asking too much from the rear tires.

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 15:16
I think you're right. The sense of speed is a huge part of it. I used to slide on that corner, too. I started watching my actual speed, and it made sense. The change of direction in that chicane, is pretty quick. You're turning hard right, and then hard left in quick succession. It's possible to start turning left too soon, while the weight of the car is still moving/pressing to the left side from the first right hand turn. If you start turning the wheel left at that point, you're just asking too much from the rear tires.

Totally Agree there with you mate. The more I took that corner, the more I realized you have to be smooth, no tail breaking into the corner, and change direction to the left just at the right time and very little throttle. It's a tricky corner, you can either gain a second there or spin out loosing 5 seconds, or just compromise for smoothness. I'm sure more can be gained through car suspension settings, I may have to try, as SPA in LMP2 is fun to drive, actually any car in SPA is fun :D

Haiden
14-06-2016, 16:21
Totally Agree there with you mate. The more I took that corner, the more I realized you have to be smooth, no tail breaking into the corner, and change direction to the left just at the right time and very little throttle. It's a tricky corner, you can either gain a second there or spin out loosing 5 seconds, or just compromise for smoothness. I'm sure more can be gained through car suspension settings, I may have to try, as SPA in LMP2 is fun to drive, actually any car in SPA is fun :D

Spa is a definitely a favorite! Great for public sessions, because a lot of people know it well enough to have a decent race in just about any car. Lots of passing opportunities, too. That last chicane is certainly a corner where you can chew into someone's gap if they aren't taking it well. It's also much harder to take when you've got someone on your tail coming down that straight, because you never know if they're gonna blow the braking zone and run up your arse. But if you pay them too much attention coming down that straight, you'll miss your braking point and over shoot the turn yourself. :)

RobboCod
14-06-2016, 17:31
Yes I'm still at 68. I tried raising it and some of the cars just felt way to heavy to me especially with the new scoop values. I'm at 60 also for sensitivity and drr at .10. Ive been trying some very different cars to see what they feel like. So far so good. Even the focus and clio felt good. The rear grip was fine with default values and just dropped air pressures a little. Usually you hear a lot of complaints about those two cars. Obviously I tried the usual fa,ruf ,mustang gt and my new favorite 49c. Ran a bunch of races at Sonoma last night because its a very good track for checking the car getting light and heavy like in the 2nd and 3rd turn plus you have a lot of uneven road sections you should be able to feel. The scoops have a huge effect on what you think youre feeling. From rear grip, weight transfer,braking feel and everything else the game can produce.

Morpwr, is the 60 sensitivity you're referring to the steering one, which helps with the initial turn in? Not one of the other sensitivity settings. Thanks.

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 19:00
Spa is a definitely a favorite! Great for public sessions, because a lot of people know it well enough to have a decent race in just about any car. Lots of passing opportunities, too. That last chicane is certainly a corner where you can chew into someone's gap if they aren't taking it well. It's also much harder to take when you've got someone on your tail coming down that straight, because you never know if they're gonna blow the braking zone and run up your arse. But if you pay them too much attention coming down that straight, you'll miss your braking point and over shoot the turn yourself. :)

Exactly! Also in Pcars there is no proper braking point markings before the last chicane and few other corners actually, if you compare to RL, tho it makes it even harder to find your braking points :) So it can be a bit tricky if you don't pay attention or as you say got someone right behind you it can make things tricky :) but it's part of the fun :) Making me want to go back to SPA, but I have no time tonight :/

morpwr
14-06-2016, 19:14
Morpwr, is the 60 sensitivity you're referring to the steering one, which helps with the initial turn in? Not one of the other sensitivity settings. Thanks.

Yes the steering one.

morpwr
14-06-2016, 19:15
Ok I will try your both recommendations. All other corners are fine, even in other games like F1 2015 if I run a session with no TC I find that corner very tricky. I think what it is, is that in reality it is a slow corner, but when you are in the game it feels like you're going to slow because you have no G forces going through your body and your mind is telling you, yeah you can take this quicker, so I think it's just me to eager to get a quicker lap time.

But I will try your suggesstion and see how it feels. If anything I'm quite happy with my scoops at the moment - I'm running SK 0.77 & SR 0.55 - recommended by FCM tool and few adjustments by feel.

I thought of something earlier. Are those with the old fcm or the new one?

Koza_Nostra
14-06-2016, 20:10
I thought of something earlier. Are those with the old fcm or the new one?

I believe the new one - FCM 1.2 right?

gotdirt410sprintcar
14-06-2016, 20:26
Here my results with/without scoops (T500 RS)

Calculate Settings
234391

without Scoops
234392

How old is your t500 just checking thanks

morpwr
14-06-2016, 21:26
I believe the new one - FCM 1.2 right?

Yes 1.2. Just asking because the sk looks like how it used to calculate it but the sr is really high. Did you leave periodic on when you tested? Just asking because our wheel base should be the same except for the software according to thrustmaster so I would expect the numbers to be closer.

oege
15-06-2016, 05:09
How old is your t500 just checking thanks
4-5 years old.


Did you leave periodic on when you tested? Just asking because our wheel base should be the same except for the software according to thrustmaster so I would expect the numbers to be closer. in the thrustmaster driver settings ? These are my settings and then i start the FCM 1.2 ? is it wrong ?

234410

Can you give me your settings ?

gotdirt410sprintcar
15-06-2016, 05:51
I think it goes like this from top to bottom. 75 100 0 0 0 12% that's how l have done it.

oege
15-06-2016, 05:58
I think it goes like this from top to bottom. 75 100 0 0 0 12% that's how l have done it.
Is this the reason why I have these values at the FCM?

konnos
15-06-2016, 07:36
Re-run the test and see for yourself ;)

I m going to assume it will change your FCM results. More importantly, PCars does not use all those effects for the thrustmaster wheels (I personally only use Constant slider at 100%) so you would want FCM to claculate only those forces.

spacepadrille
15-06-2016, 08:42
Yes 1.2. Just asking because the sk looks like how it used to calculate it but the sr is really high. Did you leave periodic on when you tested? Just asking because our wheel base should be the same except for the software according to thrustmaster so I would expect the numbers to be closer.

And also the number of samples in the test is very important. If you take only one sample, you can have big differences between 2 tests. With 2 to 4 samples, I'm always around the same values (SK 0.82-0.84 ; SR 0.46 - 0.48 ; DRR : 0.10 - 0.11)

Yesterday I did a test with only one sample, and the result was SK 0.85 ; SR 0.53 !

I use FF 75, constant 100%, periodic 100%, others 0

Koza_Nostra
15-06-2016, 08:52
Yes 1.2. Just asking because the sk looks like how it used to calculate it but the sr is really high. Did you leave periodic on when you tested? Just asking because our wheel base should be the same except for the software according to thrustmaster so I would expect the numbers to be closer.

Periodic at 0, only Constant at 100. That's strange then. I remember using FCM 1 and it gave me lower values. With FCM 1.2 it always gives me quite high value for SR.. Even if I change FFB on Thrustmaster control panel I still get high SR value.

What SR value do you get mate?

I will do few more tests maybe this weekends just to see what I get again..

oege
15-06-2016, 09:08
Re-run the test and see for yourself ;) Ok, i will post the results. Should i change the FFB to 60 (like PS4 ingame) ? I play with my T500 + Fanatec V2 on PS4 !

RobboCod
15-06-2016, 09:23
Yes the steering one.

Cheers.

konnos
15-06-2016, 10:25
Yes you will need to change the strength if you want the FCM results to be valid for your current settings.

Koza_Nostra
15-06-2016, 10:44
Yes you will need to change the strength if you want the FCM results to be valid for your current settings.

But, do we know if Thrustmaster Control Panel FFB strength matches the PS4 or Xbox1 in game FFB strenght? I don't think we do :confused:

GrimeyDog
15-06-2016, 10:59
We should Hook up and Run a 24hr Kemans this weekend.... I will be Locked in the Man Kave watching it as i Run the Track!!! Going to Run it with Random weather etc.

I will be a Circuit de Lesarthe Master By the Time the weekend is over:p

Im Rooting for Porsche again but i Really want Toyota to step it up secretly Hoping they win a little bit... The Audi, Porsche Battle will be a Clash of Titans... If Toyota Puts them Both under Pressure this years Lemans will Be Epic!!!

The LMP1 Audi Juggernat Must Be Crushed!!! Who are you Rooting for???

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:00
4-5 years old.

in the thrustmaster driver settings ? These are my settings and then i start the FCM 1.2 ? is it wrong ?

234410

Can you give me your settings ?

That is correct. Which settings?

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:02
And also the number of samples in the test is very important. If you take only one sample, you can have big differences between 2 tests. With 2 to 4 samples, I'm always around the same values (SK 0.82-0.84 ; SR 0.46 - 0.48 ; DRR : 0.10 - 0.11)

Yesterday I did a test with only one sample, and the result was SK 0.85 ; SR 0.53 !

I use FF 75, constant 100%, periodic 100%, others 0

Same here I always do 4 samples.

oege
15-06-2016, 11:09
That is correct. Which settings?
Your Ingame settings - DRR - SK - SR etc.

Haiden
15-06-2016, 11:14
Is this the reason why I have these values at the FCM?

Aren't you supposed to run the test with Overall Strength equal to your GM FF setting?

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:14
Periodic at 0, only Constant at 100. That's strange then. I remember using FCM 1 and it gave me lower values. With FCM 1.2 it always gives me quite high value for SR.. Even if I change FFB on Thrustmaster control panel I still get high SR value.

What SR value do you get mate?

I will do few more tests maybe this weekends just to see what I get again..

Yes leave constant and periodic on and see what happens. Iv found using the default ffb value for the wheel like the t300 is 75 gives the best results. The numbers don't change drastically when changing the ffb master so its easy enough to tweak from there.I ran tests from 68-77 and the numbers weren't that different. I got between 46-48 on every test and settled on 47 as a good balance between grip and weight shift. Spacepadrille liked 46 better but its just personal preference at that point. It will be interesting to see what you get for numbers.

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:16
But, do we know if Thrustmaster Control Panel FFB strength matches the PS4 or Xbox1 in game FFB strenght? I don't think we do :confused:

I don't think it does myself and I'm pretty sure somebody found the xbox didn't. I honestly wouldn't worry about it at this point.

oege
15-06-2016, 11:21
Aren't you supposed to run the test with Overall Strength equal to your GM FF setting?
My ingame FFB 50 (PS4) and i use Grimeys FFB settings, the thrustermaster driver setting was on 60 at the test with the FCM and only 2 samples

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:23
Aren't you supposed to run the test with Overall Strength equal to your GM FF setting?

Youre supposed to but it seems to work better just going by the default ffb setting for the wheel. The numbers don't change much anyways and really the biggest change is in sr so its easy enough to tweak that by feel. If I remember correctly from testing sk had a range of 80-82 from ffb 68-77 and sr was 41-48. Getting the knee right seems to have the biggest effect on the t300 while sr gives a little more room to play.

morpwr
15-06-2016, 11:25
Your Ingame settings - DRR - SK - SR etc.

The new settings are on the oscarolim site. I left my old ones posted too just in case somebody liked those better.

oege
15-06-2016, 11:32
The new settings are on the oscarolim site. I left my old ones posted too just in case somebody liked those better.
Thank you. I will test it :)

GrimeyDog
15-06-2016, 13:24
My ingame FFB 50 (PS4) and i use Grimeys FFB settings, the thrustermaster driver setting was on 60 at the test with the FCM and only 2 samples

With My settings i suggest starting with the Recommended GM FFB for your particular wheel, Drive your Favorite Car on a Track you know best(I use the GT3 Ruf... Gt3 seems to have the Most wheel weight/Grip Feel) use in Car Masters 100... Then Adjust GM FFB until the Wheel Weight feels Right for you... Then Try another Car Class and Start with in Car Masters 100 and adjust Masters + or - per car until the Car Feels how you like it.

I Find once i set the wheel weight in GT3 that all the Cars can easily be adjusted if Needed to taste simply by + or - with the car Masters:yes:

For Me 100 Car Masters feels Good in Every Car... I dont Mind that some Cars the wheel feels Lighter than it feels in GT3...I used GT3 to Set Maximum Wheel weight...But if you want to Normalize so with every car the wheel weight is the same just + or - the in Car Masters until Wheel weight/Feel is Right.

Koza_Nostra
15-06-2016, 13:35
Yes leave constant and periodic on and see what happens. Iv found using the default ffb value for the wheel like the t300 is 75 gives the best results. The numbers don't change drastically when changing the ffb master so its easy enough to tweak from there.I ran tests from 68-77 and the numbers weren't that different. I got between 46-48 on every test and settled on 47 as a good balance between grip and weight shift. Spacepadrille liked 46 better but its just personal preference at that point. It will be interesting to see what you get for numbers.

Ok, I will do that and let you know. It may take a few days till I get the test done as I won't have a chance for a few days now.. But I will eventually.

MarkyboyUK
15-06-2016, 13:37
Can't see how you paste a screenshot in a post but with my T300, Control Panel setting at 75% FFB strength - FCM 1.2 suggests:
Scoop Knee: 0.78
Scoop Reduction 0.54
Deadzone Removal 0.13
Soft Clip (Full) states 1.00 (should I be setting this value to 1.00 in the game?)

These seem quite different to you other T300 owners - Tried several times too.

Roger Prynne
15-06-2016, 13:54
Can't see how you paste a screenshot in a post but with my T300, Control Panel setting at 75% FFB strength - FCM 1.2 suggests:
Scoop Knee: 0.78
Scoop Reduction 0.54
Deadzone Removal 0.13
Soft Clip (Full) states 1.00 (should I be setting this value to 1.00 in the game?)

These seem quite different to you other T300 owners - Tried several times too.

You need at least 5 post before you can attach anything.

oege
15-06-2016, 13:58
With My settings i suggest starting with theRecommended GM FFB for your particular wheel, Drive your Favorite Car on a Track you know best(I use the GT3 Ruf... Gt3 seems to have the Most wheel weight/Grip Feel) use in Car Masters 100... Then Adjust GM FFB until the Wheel Weight feels Right for you... Then Try another Car Class and Start with in Car Masters 100 and adjust Masters + or - per car until the Car Feels how you like it.


Grimey, i did this :) That's why i use GM FFB 50 and not default settings (T500RS - GM FFB 48 for PS4) . I also test it with GM FFB 55, but that was not good for me.

morpwr
15-06-2016, 15:13
Can't see how you paste a screenshot in a post but with my T300, Control Panel setting at 75% FFB strength - FCM 1.2 suggests:
Scoop Knee: 0.78
Scoop Reduction 0.54
Deadzone Removal 0.13
Soft Clip (Full) states 1.00 (should I be setting this value to 1.00 in the game?)

These seem quite different to you other T300 owners - Tried several times too.

Do you have periodic and constant set to 100?

morpwr
15-06-2016, 15:14
Do you have periodic and constant set to 100? No the sc setting is just default for the fcm. Its not doing anything set like that in the fcm.

oege
15-06-2016, 15:20
New test :

#1 - FFB 60 - 4 Samples
234434

#2 - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234435

#3 again - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234436

#4 - FFB 50 - Test with - import to FCM
234433

and now ? Which is wrong/right ? #1 , #2 ,#3 or #4 ? :D

morpwr
15-06-2016, 15:39
New test :

#1 - FFB 60 - 4 Samples
234429

#2 - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234430

#3 again - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234431

#4 - FFB 50 - Test with - import to FCM
234433

and now ? Which is wrong/right ? #1 , #2 ,#3 or #4 ? :D

The first 3 don't open but I would just use the fcm. The numbers from that seem pretty accurate. But I have had it calculate stuff that doesn't make sense similar to what youre seeing. Just out of curiosity is the room you play in air conditioned? I had that do weird stuff when running mine.

poirqc
15-06-2016, 15:39
New test :

#1 - FFB 60 - 4 Samples
234429

#2 - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234430

#3 again - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234431

#4 - FFB 50 - Test with - import to FCM
234433

and now ? Which is wrong/right ? #1 , #2 ,#3 or #4 ? :D

Can't see attachement 1,2 and 3.

MarkyboyUK
15-06-2016, 16:24
Do you have periodic and constant set to 100?

Yes I do and Spring & Damper set to 0

gotdirt410sprintcar
15-06-2016, 16:27
We should Hook up and Run a 24hr Kemans this weekend.... I will be Locked in the Man Kave watching it as i Run the Track!!! Going to Run it with Random weather etc.

I will be a Circuit de Lesarthe Master By the Time the weekend is over:p

Im Rooting for Porsche again but i Really want Toyota to step it up secretly Hoping they win a little bit... The Audi, Porsche Battle will be a Clash of Titans... If Toyota Puts them Both under Pressure this years Lemans will Be Epic!!!

The LMP1 Audi Juggernat Must Be Crushed!!! Who are you Rooting for???

I don't really care who wins let's go racing and the hell with it

Roger Prynne
15-06-2016, 16:57
The first 3 don't open but I would just use the fcm. The numbers from that seem pretty accurate. But I have had it calculate stuff that doesn't make sense similar to what youre seeing. Just out of curiosity is the room you play in air conditioned? I had that do weird stuff when running mine.


Can't see attachement 1,2 and 3.

They work for me.

poirqc
15-06-2016, 17:15
They work for me.

I get the following message:

WMD Message
Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

Reloading the page give the same results.

morpwr
15-06-2016, 17:17
I get the following message:


Reloading the page give the same results.

me too

oege
15-06-2016, 17:31
now ?

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1288019&viewfull=1#post1288019

morpwr
15-06-2016, 18:30
New test :

#1 - FFB 60 - 4 Samples
234434

#2 - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234435

#3 again - FFB 50 - 4 Samples
234436

#4 - FFB 50 - Test with - import to FCM
234433

and now ? Which is wrong/right ? #1 , #2 ,#3 or #4 ? :D

Only way to find out is try it both ways. But the fcm by itself seems pretty accurate especially since the 1.2 version.

GrimeyDog
15-06-2016, 20:18
Watching the 24hr of Lemans Qualifying... Porsche is Looking Strong!!!

BigDad
15-06-2016, 23:01
Ok, i will post the results. Should i change the FFB to 60 (like PS4 ingame) ? I play with my T500 + Fanatec V2 on PS4 !

How are you using Thrustmaster and Fanatec together? CPX adapter?
I'm trying this to No avail.

Haiden
15-06-2016, 23:26
How are you using Thrustmaster and Fanatec together? CPX adapter?
I'm trying this to No avail.

You can't get the CPX to work? Are you plugging the pedals into the base? I ordered an adapter to have as a backup, in case anything ever happened to my V2 base, and I was without for a while. I've got a T300, and assumed the two would work, but I never actually tried hooking it up.

GrimeyDog
15-06-2016, 23:42
Nubergring GP smooth Track FFB Test TF/RAC 75, GT3 Ruf

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jc7L56RxH5M/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=ri4ZLz0f98R-Yxd39NRtQPRXQCw
3:21 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc7L56RxH5M)


Nubergring GP, Smooth track FFB test LMP1 Marek

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OnzZaEDg57g/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=kAWUBB1-G0Sw0VErRQVHtjtPUTM
2:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnzZaEDg57g)

The smooth track FFB feel is GREAT!!! you can feel every bit of Grip and tire slip!!! The FFB line is relatively calm as compared to watkins glen but all the feel is still there... Pay attention to the tire friction Rings... you can feel every bit of that in the wheel:yes:
Both cars as usual (LOL) are using the same FFB settings...Laps were not really about getting good times but more about Honing in on how the FFB feels on smoother tracks.... I must say I am very happy and satisfied with the FFB feel:applouse:

oege
16-06-2016, 05:51
Only way to find out is try it both ways. But the fcm by itself seems pretty accurate especially since the 1.2 version. I tested all settings, also yours and i chose your settings. Great, thank u !



How are you using Thrustmaster and Fanatec together? CPX adapter?
I'm trying this to No avail.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44023-(ps4)-All-Thrustmaster-wheel-help-and-settings&p=1287888&viewfull=1#post1287888
I wrote this also :)

The CPX Adapter works perfect. You have a T150 or ? It works with T300,T500 and TX !


I've got a T300, and assumed the two would work, but I never actually tried hooking it up. Don't worry, it works :)

234452

BigDad
16-06-2016, 06:31
You can't get the CPX to work? Are you plugging the pedals into the base? I ordered an adapter to have as a backup, in case anything ever happened to my V2 base, and I was without for a while. I've got a T300, and assumed the two would work, but I never actually tried hooking it up.
ooops sorry , i said that wrong .
im just trying to get the T150 and CSR Elite pedals together , but with plug and play cables . no adapter .
i just assumed it would work . silly me .
i cant pay $170 delivered for a cpx , might as well just buy T500 pedals .
but for GTS these crappy stock Thrustmaster pedals will do , with a brake mod .

BigDad
16-06-2016, 06:39
thanks for your input guys .
did the FCM on the T150 , its pretty linear with a bit of scoops .0.9983

wheelcheck . 0.9983 linear
SK 0.45
SR 0.83
Dz 0.22 wow


FCM 0.9979 linear
SK 0.44
SR 0.71
Dz 0.18
Thrustmaster control panel
force 75
all others 100
cheers

oege
16-06-2016, 06:57
i cant pay $170 delivered for a cpx

170$ ? US = 59$ - All others = 70$ . To Germany also 70$ = 62€

morpwr
16-06-2016, 11:04
thanks for your input guys .
did the FCM on the T150 , its pretty linear with a bit of scoops .0.9983

wheelcheck . 0.9983 linear
SK 0.45
SR 0.83
Dz 0.22 wow


FCM 0.9979 linear
SK 0.44
SR 0.71
Dz 0.18
Thrustmaster control panel
force 75
all others 100
cheers


You only want constant and periodic set at 100. Turn the other two off for thrustmaster wheels when using the fcm.

Haiden
16-06-2016, 11:14
i cant pay $170 delivered for a cpx , might as well just buy T500 pedals .


170$ ? US = 59$ - All others = 70$ . To Germany also 70$ = 62€

Was just about to post the same. I bought mine about five or six months ago. It was $59.

Haiden
16-06-2016, 11:16
Don't worry, it works :)

234452

Thanks! Also...like the casters. Having the rig on wheels is really convenient. :)

baza4173
16-06-2016, 11:18
I have to agree with your theory on this ffb set up grimey dog i have tried lots of others over months of playing around and although they also felt good what changed my mind was when i went into a community avent which forces default settings my ffb felt wrong so this all for one setting proved to me was right cheers grimey dog i can just race now without no more ffb messing around FINALLY ! lol this was on t300 just for interest

BigDad
16-06-2016, 12:01
170$ ? US = 59$ - All others = 70$ . To Germany also 70$ = 62€
$ 70 us = $97aud plus delivery $70 another $97aud so actually more than $170 , $194 wtf . Unless i got the site details incorrect .
I think if the $70 for delivery is correct Basher can go jump . Wouldnt surprise me though as we always get screwed for price here in Australia .

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-06-2016, 12:05
All for one works for some but don't limit yourself special when you start to tune the suspension, then you might start to lose lateral feel etc so all for one no chance don't believe it and never will. Sorry grimey lol

I give you credit grimey ;)

BigDad
16-06-2016, 12:14
You only want constant and periodic set at 100. Turn the other two off for thrustmaster wheels when using the fcm.
Done , does that save in the memory of the wheel .? Or is it purely for pc drivers .
Center , by wheel or by game ?

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-06-2016, 12:16
@Bigdad your ever go to any sprintcar races over there in the AU, you guys got some fast sticky flat tracks those guys set them cars up soft over there. Wheel hoping bucking bull over there for 30 laps lol

morpwr
16-06-2016, 12:17
All for one works for some but don't limit yourself special when you start to tune the suspension, then you might start to lose lateral feel etc so all for one no chance don't believe it and never will. Sorry grimey lol

It might not be our way but you have to give grimey a lot of credit. He could have been its my why or no way with this forum but instead let it develop into probably the best pcars forum anywhere when it comes to help with settings.

morpwr
16-06-2016, 12:18
Done , does that save in the memory of the wheel .? Or is it purely for pc drivers .
Center , by wheel or by game ?

Just for pc. You can leave that like it is default.

oege
16-06-2016, 12:19
I think if the $70 for delivery is correct Basher can go jump . Wouldnt surprise me though as we always get screwed for price here in Australia .

You have this misunderstood. 55$ (CPX) + 15$ (shipping and handling) = 70 USD = 62 €. I have paid 62€ for the adapter and delivery !!!

234464

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 13:27
All for one works for some but don't limit yourself special when you start to tune the suspension, then you might start to lose lateral feel etc so all for one no chance don't believe it and never will. Sorry grimey lol

I give you credit grimey ;)


It might not be our way but you have to give grimey a lot of credit. He could have been its my why or no way with this forum but instead let it develop into probably the best pcars forum anywhere when it comes to help with settings.

There are Many ways to Tune the FFB and Every 1 feels things different ways...What 1 likes the other Does Not.
I can Be Fast Driving Stock No tune suspension while others Need to tune... Its all about personal Taste.

I have also Learned Much from you guys!!! Its was the Best Choice to Have open discussion... We Have explored each others tuning Methods and all Have taken bits and pieces here and there to Create the Feel that best matches our individual FFB Needs and Taste.

Kudos to all who have Contributed to the Growth in Knowledge of Pcars FFB system.

Kudos for those that just Read and support the Forum thread Too... We Tweek for you!!! Enjoy... Stop in Say Hello.... Your support Goes along way!!! Were Not getting paid for tweeking. LOL

morpwr
16-06-2016, 13:37
There are Many ways to Tune the FFB and Every 1 feels things different ways...What 1 likes the other Does Not.
I can Be Fast Driving Stock No tune suspension while others Need to tune... Its all about personal Taste.

I have also Learned Much from you guys!!! Its was the Best Choice to Have open discussion... We Have explored each others tuning Methods and all Have taken bits and pieces here and there to Create the Feel that best matches our individual FFB Needs and Taste.

Kudos to all who have Contributed to the Growth in Knowledge of Pcars FFB system.

Kudos for those that just Read and support the Forum thread Too... We Tweek for you!!! Enjoy... Stop in Say Hello.... Your support Goes along way!!! Were Not getting paid for tweeking. LOL

Really ? I was waiting for my check.lol

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 14:30
All for one works for some but don't limit yourself special when you start to tune the suspension, then you might start to lose lateral feel etc so all for one no chance don't believe it and never will. Sorry grimey lol

I give you credit grimey ;)

The Car Has to Be Tweeked to the FFB... The FFB just Conveys How you Feel Bumps, Curbs and Weight transfer... IMO Only Once you Have your FFB set can you Propperly tune the Suspension... Not the other way around therfore a Suspension Tune that you may be using may Not Feel or work the same when you start Changing FFB settings.

For Me I am Only Now Beginning to Explore Suspension tuning Now that i Have the FFB set... Sooo Far Sooo Good but i dont think i will make a Big deal out of suspension tuning as I find that Im Not Gaining Huge amounts of time gains per Lap....I can Easily Get Top 50 or below on the TT boards stock tune once i Know the Track... I dont Have ambition to be #1....I just want to be Consistent and Competitive when Racing.... No Matter what Tune or Tweek some people just Have More time to Practice or Know and understand some Tracks and Cars Better than I.... Being #1 is just Too Much Work.

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 14:44
Really ? I was waiting for my check.lol

I was waiting on SMS to Donate a High end PC so i can Tweek Pcars on PC also... That would Be Great!!! Keep Hope alive!!!... LOL

Haiden
16-06-2016, 14:46
Wanted to see if Fanatec had any new rims in the works before buying the Porsche rim. Didn't want to spend the cash, and then see them release a similar Fanatec branded rim a few months later...LOL

They confirmed that they do not have any new rims in development at this time. :( I really wish the Porsche rim was black leather and Fanatec branded. I'm not really a fan of manufacturer branded rims, but it looks like I don't have choice this time.

Edit: Also interesting was the fact that they responded "No" to the rim question. But when I then asked if they had any DD wheels in development, the response was "Sorry we're not allowed to comment on development questions." I'll take that as a yes, since they were able to say no about the rims. :)

Fight-Test
16-06-2016, 15:25
The Car Has to Be Tweeked to the FFB... The FFB just Conveys How you Feel Bumps, Curbs and Weight transfer... IMO Only Once you Have your FFB set can you Propperly tune the Suspension... Not the other way around therfore a Suspension Tune that you may be using may Not Feel or work the same when you start Changing FFB settings.

For Me I am Only Now Beginning to Explore Suspension tuning Now that i Have the FFB set... Sooo Far Sooo Good but i dont think i will make a Big deal out of suspension tuning as I find that Im Not Gaining Huge amounts of time gains per Lap....I can Easily Get Top 50 or below on the TT boards stock tune once i Know the Track... I dont Have ambition to be #1....I just want to be Consistent and Competitive when Racing.... No Matter what Tune or Tweek some people just Have More time to Practice or Know and understand some Tracks and Cars Better than I.... Being #1 is just Too Much Work.

Not sure why u connect the suspension and the ffb so much but your suspension will provide your tire wear solutions above anything else. Example of this is the audi gt3 as suspension changes away from the horrible factory defaults give this car much longer and competition runs compared to defult by a mile. Suspension for road surface (smooth, rough) are extremely important t and has nothing to do with your ffb settings. Granted you need good ffb to feel the bumps and curbs but you wouldnt tune your suspension for that so confused about this strong link between the 2 that you always talk about. You tune the suspension to handle the bumps no matter what the ffb feels like. You just need ffb to feel the bumps to begin with. Can you elaborate?

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 16:09
Not sure why u connect the suspension and the ffb so much but your suspension will provide your tire wear solutions above anything else. Example of this is the audi gt3 as suspension changes away from the horrible factory defaults give this car much longer and competition runs compared to defult by a mile. Suspension for road surface (smooth, rough) are extremely important t and has nothing to do with your ffb settings. Granted you need good ffb to feel the bumps and curbs but you wouldnt tune your suspension for that so confused about this strong link between the 2 that you always talk about. You tune the suspension to handle the bumps no matter what the ffb feels like. You just need ffb to feel the bumps to begin with. Can you elaborate?

You Have to Read My post again... Infact we are saying the same thing... FFB Only Conveys the way you Feel Bumps, Curbs, Weight Transfer...its what i have always said... Thats why i say 2 FFB tweek to Rule them All... I see FFB as the Road Bump, Curb ,Weight Transfer Feel only Non Changing Per Car!!! A Bumpy Road will Not Change because your in a Porcshe or Bently what Changes is How the cars Suspension Handles the Bump Road, Curves... Porsche and Bently are Very Different Porsche Rear engine Bently Front engine and they are different weight Bias... They Handle Bumps and Curbs Differently because of this and it Has Nothing to do withnFFB Tweeking... The FFB just lets you feel how the Car suspension is handling Different Road Surfaces...IMO when you Change the FFB per Car What you are doing is Creating a Generic Feel per Car to Compensate/ Normalize the difference between Cars so they all Feel the same which is Not true to Real Life.

Even on the Front Page i state FFB Tweeking and Suspension Tweeking are 2 totally Different and Seperate things.

Using a Wheel I find the Stock Suspension is Very Good... It fits My Driving Style well and i get Great Tire Life with Good Lap Times... When i used a Game Pad i Needed to Tweek suspension to Compensate for My Lack of Smoothness with a Game Pad.

We are saying the same thing if i read and understand your Comment/Question Correctly.

IMO the FFB must be properly set First then and only then can you Create a Propper Suspension tweek because You will Now be abke to feel the Road Better to Maximze your suspension tuninig.

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 16:14
Flight test im Running in a League that i think you will enjoy!!! We are Running the Gt4 Ginetta... Let Me Know if your interested.

Any 1 esles who may be interested let Me Know.. We have a Few open spots.

morpwr
16-06-2016, 16:23
You Have to Read My post again... Infact we are saying the same thing... FFB Only Conveys the way you Feel Bumps, Curbs, Weight Transfer...its what i have always said... Thats why i say 2 FFB tweek to Rule them All... I see FFB as the Road Bump, Curb ,Weight Transfer Feel only Non Changing Per Car!!! A Bumpy Road will Not Change because your in a Porcshe or Bently what Changes is How the cars Suspension Handles the Bump Road, Curves... Porsche and Bently are Very Different Porsche Rear engine Bently Front engine and they are different weight Bias... They Handle Bumps and Curbs Differently because of this and it Has Nothing to do withnFFB Tweeking... The FFB just lets you feel how the Car suspension is handling Different Road Surfaces...IMO when you Change the FFB per Car What you are doing is Creating a Generic Feel per Car to Compensate/ Normalize the difference between Cars so they all Feel the same which is Not true to Real Life.

Even on the Front Page i state FFB Tweeking and Suspension Tweeking are 2 totally Different and Seperate things.

Using a Wheel I find the Stock Suspension is Very Good... It fits My Driving Style well and i get Great Tire Life with Good Lap Times... When i used a Game Pad i Needed to Tweek suspension to Compensate for My Lack of Smoothness with a Game Pad.

We are saying the same thing if i read and understand your Comment/Question Correctly.

IMO the FFB must be properly set First then and only then can you Create a Propper Suspension tweek because You will Now be abke to feel the Road Better to Maximze your suspension tuninig.

Just so you know the cars don't feel anything alike with jacks settings either. Nothing generic about them.

Haiden
16-06-2016, 16:50
Not sure why u connect the suspension and the ffb so much but your suspension will provide your tire wear solutions above anything else. Example of this is the audi gt3 as suspension changes away from the horrible factory defaults give this car much longer and competition runs compared to defult by a mile. Suspension for road surface (smooth, rough) are extremely important t and has nothing to do with your ffb settings. Granted you need good ffb to feel the bumps and curbs but you wouldnt tune your suspension for that so confused about this strong link between the 2 that you always talk about. You tune the suspension to handle the bumps no matter what the ffb feels like. You just need ffb to feel the bumps to begin with. Can you elaborate?

Same here, don't see the strong connection. A lot of the cars have terrible default settings. The suspension in many GT cars is too soft and allow for too much weight transfer and body roll. And why run the Nordschleife without adjusting for the rough surface, especially if the default springs are too hard? FFB may change the way you feel the bumps and how those bumps affect the wheel (pulling you offline and such), but a few slight adjustments to the suspension can really help, some tracks more than others, but most usually in some way. The BMW GT3 is a perfect example. Stiffening the AR bars a click or two, reduces body roll and makes the car handle a lot differently, regardless of your FFB tune.


Just so you know the cars don't feel anything alike with jacks settings either. Nothing generic about them.

Exactly; they don't. They all still feel very different. Per car settings aren't meant to normalize the feel of the cars. The goal isn't to make the bumps or wheel weight feel the same in all cars. As Jack and others have already explained, numerous times, the cars are not modeled the same (see below).


I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight

Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg

.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg


The above means/shows that the goal of individual in-car settings is to normalize the models, not the feel of the FFB. If you use the same settings for all cars, the differences you feel aren't always realistic or based on the real world mechanical differences. In the example above, if those three cars were using the same in-car settings, they would feel different (C drastically different). And that difference wouldn't have anything to do with the mechanical differences of the cars. This is why cars using Jack's individual in-car settings still maintain a unique feel and their own individual characteristic. Because, once the model variances have been accounted for (normalized), then you can feel the actual mechanical differences. IMO, the reasoning/logic behind individual in-car FFB settings is one of the most misunderstood things in PCars.


Edit: I'm not knocking a one-fits-all approach. If you like the convenience, that's fine--nothing wrong with it. I'm just explaining/clarifying the reasoning behind individual in-car settings, as its purpose is often misstated as changing the real-world physics, which isn't the case.

Haiden
16-06-2016, 18:26
GT Sport is looking good. :) No dynamic weather or time transitions, though. :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrSXXTyYpLo

morpwr
16-06-2016, 18:55
Same here, don't see the strong connection. A lot of the cars have terrible default settings. The suspension in many GT cars is too soft and allow for too much weight transfer and body roll. And why run the Nordschleife without adjusting for the rough surface, especially if the default springs are too hard? FFB may change the way you feel the bumps and how those bumps affect the wheel (pulling you offline and such), but a few slight adjustments to the suspension can really help, some tracks more than others, but most usually in some way. The BMW GT3 is a perfect example. Stiffening the AR bars a click or two, reduces body roll and makes the car handle a lot differently, regardless of your FFB tune.



Exactly; they don't. They all still feel very different. Per car settings aren't meant to normalize the feel of the cars. The goal isn't to make the bumps or wheel weight feel the same in all cars. As Jack and others have already explained, numerous times, the cars are not modeled the same (see below).



The above means/shows that the goal of individual in-car settings is to normalize the models, not the feel of the FFB. If you use the same settings for all cars, the differences you feel aren't always realistic or based on the real world mechanical differences. In the example above, if those three cars were using the same in-car settings, they would feel different (C drastically different). And that difference wouldn't have anything to do with the mechanical differences of the cars. This is why cars using Jack's individual in-car settings still maintain a unique feel and their own individual characteristic. Because, once the model variances have been accounted for (normalized), then you can feel the actual mechanical differences. IMO, the reasoning/logic behind individual in-car FFB settings is one of the most misunderstood things in PCars.


Edit: I'm not knocking a one-fits-all approach. If you like the convenience, that's fine--nothing wrong with it. I'm just explaining/clarifying the reasoning behind individual in-car settings, as its purpose is often misstated as changing the real-world physics, which isn't the case.

Exactly the 3 mustangs feel nothing even close to alike. The same goes for the focus and the clio both front wheel drive but completely different cars. I will say sms did a great job modeling them though. The focus feels exactly like driving a fast(I use that term loosely here) front wheel drive should. It even feels right when the front tires skate across the track from a dead stop spinning the tires. That actually got a smile out of me at the start of the race.

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 19:48
Just so you know the cars don't feel anything alike with jacks settings either. Nothing generic about them.


Exactly the 3 mustangs feel nothing even close to alike. The same goes for the focus and the clio both front wheel drive but completely different cars. I will say sms did a great job modeling them though. The focus feels exactly like driving a fast(I use that term loosely here) front wheel drive should. It even feels right when the front tires skate across the track from a dead stop spinning the tires. That actually got a smile out of me at the start of the race.

I can not comment on JS settings and how they feel... its been a long time since i have tried them and he has made several changes to his tweek work...all i can say is that when i did try them that they were not the settings that gave Me the FFB feel i like.

For me stock suspension tune and one FFB to rule them all works very well:yes: and i am more happy with the FFB feel now than ever!!!
I've been tweeking with the car suspension but as i said I'm not making huge time gains so i don't think i will make a big deal suspension tuning at the moment... I will still tweek the suspension but its not going to be My main focus... Now that i have the FFB is straight I'm finally able to spend time Racing enjoying Pcars... I had spent sooo much time tuning for feel My Racing performance and Lap times really suffered badly:no: it was sooo bad that i couldn't run good laps without the telemetry up:no: LOL!!!

****"http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jack Spade http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?p=1283661#post1283661)

I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight

Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg

.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg"***


As far as the above quote is concerned all i can say is all cars feel fine to me with my settings:yes: I find no need to normalize the car FFB settings...maybe its because i use settings with higher in car masters...I dunno:confused:... different settings will have similar but not exact same feel...My settings and JS settings are totally different... yes the wheel and FFB maybe a tad lighter in some cars than it is with others but i find that Normal... I do Not expect low Grip Street tires,Heavy car VS Light weight car to have the same wheel weight as a car with higher levels of Grip Racing slicks, High down force ETC.... Ex: as you said all 3 Mustangs have a very different driving feel... with my settings the wheel weight varies per car and i find for me this feels Normal... How ever if some one using my settings wishes to have all the cars with a normalized wheel weight they would simply + or - the in car masters until the car/Wheel feels how they like it.... Simple and Very easy to customize to personal taste:yes:

I would also agree that SMS did a great Job with the car models.

at the end of the day as long as every 1 is happy with their FFB that's what matters most... Its all about personal FFB preference and choice of how you choose to tweek to bring out the FFB feel that you like best:yes:

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 20:04
Watching Round 3 of the 24hrs of Lemans Qualifying!!! Porsche is looking strong so far... a wet start has been declared so every 1 on Wet tires to start.

morpwr
16-06-2016, 21:27
I can not comment on JS settings and how they feel... its been a long time since i have tried them and he has made several changes to his tweek work...all i can say is that when i did try them that they were not the settings that gave Me the FFB feel i like.

For me stock suspension tune and one FFB to rule them all works very well:yes: and i am more happy with the FFB feel now than ever!!!
I've been tweeking with the car suspension but as i said I'm not making huge time gains so i don't think i will make a big deal suspension tuning at the moment... I will still tweek the suspension but its not going to be My main focus... Now that i have the FFB is straight I'm finally able to spend time Racing enjoying Pcars... I had spent sooo much time tuning for feel My Racing performance and Lap times really suffered badly:no: it was sooo bad that i couldn't run good laps without the telemetry up:no: LOL!!!

****"http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jack Spade http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?p=1283661#post1283661)

I have reported about it numerous times..... the real levels of forces the physics spits out per car could vary very much, here a simple example force = weight

Car A - 1.0 Mz = 1.0 kg
Car B - 1.0 Mz = 1.3 kg
Car C - 1.0 Mz = 0.4 kg

.....and it goes on like that with Fy, Sop etc.... the reason a per car tuning is required to compensate these differences.
I have learned from the devs due to car construction some of it sometimes could be strange like on the SL 300 for instance where perhaps 1.0 Fy = 0.002 kg"***


As far as the above quote is concerned all i can say is all cars feel fine to me with my settings:yes: I find no need to normalize the car FFB settings...maybe its because i use settings with higher in car masters...I dunno:confused:... different settings will have similar but not exact same feel...My settings and JS settings are totally different... yes the wheel and FFB maybe a tad lighter in some cars than it is with others but i find that Normal... I do Not expect low Grip Street tires,Heavy car VS Light weight car to have the same wheel weight as a car with higher levels of Grip Racing slicks, High down force ETC.... Ex: as you said all 3 Mustangs have a very different driving feel... with my settings the wheel weight varies per car and i find for me this feels Normal... How ever if some one using my settings wishes to have all the cars with a normalized wheel weight they would simply + or - the in car masters until the car/Wheel feels how they like it.... Simple and Very easy to customize to personal taste:yes:

I would also agree that SMS did a great Job with the car models.

at the end of the day as long as every 1 is happy with their FFB that's what matters most... Its all about personal FFB preference and choice of how you choose to tweek to bring out the FFB feel that you like best:yes:

If the wheel weight didn't change I would think something is wrong. I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with your way. I only commented because it seems like you think jacks settings make the cars feel the same and nothing could be farther from the truth. They all feel very different and still have a unique personality just like real cars do.

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 21:57
If the wheel weight didn't change I would think something is wrong. I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with your way. I only commented because it seems like you think jacks settings make the cars feel the same and nothing could be farther from the truth. They all feel very different and still have a unique personality just like real cars do.

I cant Comment on JS settings and How they Feel... Its been a Long time and He has made Many Changes to them... All I can Say is that when i tried them they were Not for Me ...i could Not find a open line of communication to help get them sorted to My taste... That is what led Me to Create My own settings and this thread which actually was the Best thing:yes:

Just think of I were using JS settings this thread May Not Exist:no:

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 22:09
Yeeeah!!! Porsche on Pole 1 & 2nd!!! Toyota 3 & 4, Audi 5 & 6!!!

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 22:16
Update for Dirt Rally out and Game Feels Good!!! No More Rall X FFB issues!!!... Nope... Soo Far i cant Create 1 FFB to Rule them all for Dirt Rally...Its Not the Cars why i Cant its the Different Race Environments Ice, Snow, Tarmac, Gravel Dirt.... What Feels Good on Ice/Snow is Too Strong for Dirt, Gravel Tarmac abd Vice Versa .. 1 FFB to Rule all is a No Go:no:... LOL

poirqc
16-06-2016, 22:55
I cant Comment on JS settings and How they Feel... Its been a Long time and He has made Many Changes to them... All I can Say is that when i tried them they were Not for Me ...i could Not find a open line of communication to help get them sorted to My taste... That is what led Me to Create My own settings and this thread which actually was the Best thing:yes:

Just think of I were using JS settings this thread May Not Exist:no:

I think that the difference between your 2 recipes is that Jack Spades normalise per class and you normalised the car FFB for all cars. Frankly, if i was on console and i had to enter numbers for all cars, i would do the same.

By itself, the game come normalised to "straigh steering rack" by default, but all cars feels different.


On a side note, i agree with you about keeping things going. Let's say you filled the fire with logs a couple times. ;)

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 23:02
GT Sport is looking good. :) No dynamic weather or time transitions, though. :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrSXXTyYpLo


Looks like its going to be a really pretty Looking Arcade racing game... better than Forza but For sure Not a Sim Like Pcars... even when i watched the reveal No one needed to slow down to get through a corner... It looked Really Arcade like racing... This video does nothing to give it a more sim like Look actually makes GT sport look even more Arcade like...Shrugggs... I will get it more than likely but i will wait until they release the new PS4.5 and Gt sport Bundle.... hopefully Fanatec has a PS4 compatible Rim out by then but if not i will buy a T150 or T300 because i already have T500 pedals to use with it, That will be My Guest PS4 set up in the man kave when i have company over.

GrimeyDog
16-06-2016, 23:17
I think that the difference between your 2 recipes is that Jack Spades normalise per class and you normalised the car FFB for all cars. Frankly, if i was on console and i had to enter numbers for all cars, i would do the same.

By itself, the game come normalised to "straigh steering rack" by default, but all cars feels different.


On a side note, i agree with you about keeping things going. Let's say you filled the fire with logs a couple times. ;)


LOL!!!Yes I agree...funny thing i thought about that tooo!!! I guess every Dog has his day,dayz,weeks,Months...sigh:beaten:

morpwr
17-06-2016, 00:14
I think that the difference between your 2 recipes is that Jack Spades normalise per class and you normalised the car FFB for all cars. Frankly, if i was on console and i had to enter numbers for all cars, i would do the same.

By itself, the game come normalised to "straigh steering rack" by default, but all cars feels different.


On a side note, i agree with you about keeping things going. Let's say you filled the fire with logs a couple times. ;)

I think ive entered all the number 4 times now. It sucks!!! Actually grimey had to make adjustments for different classes of cars too it isn't actually a clear one size fits all. But in fairness he doesn't have to change them for every single car.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 00:46
I think ive entered all the number 4 times now. It sucks!!! Actually grimey had to make adjustments for different classes of cars too it isn't actually a clear one size fits all. But in fairness he doesn't have to change them for every single car.

Nope Not any More... 1 size fits all...Especially after Going to TF/RAC 75... Pick any 2 Cars that are Total oposite.

Haiden
17-06-2016, 01:41
I think ive entered all the number 4 times now. It sucks!!! Actually grimey had to make adjustments for different classes of cars too it isn't actually a clear one size fits all. But in fairness he doesn't have to change them for every single car.

I only enter the numbers once per car, save that as a base setting to all tracks, and tune individually from there. I'd have to do the same thing if I was using the same FFB for all cars. Unless you're running SMS defaults, you always have to enter the settings at least once per car. I don't bother setting the FFB for all cars. Only the ones I drive often. The others, I just wait until I'm going to use the car.

BigDad
17-06-2016, 01:46
I only enter the numbers once per car, save that as a base setting to all tracks, and tune individually from there. I'd have to do the same thing if I was using the same FFB for all cars. Unless you're running SMS defaults, you always have to enter the settings at least once per car. I don't bother setting the FFB for all cars. Only the ones I drive often. The others, I just wait until I'm going to use the car.

Exactly, this.
Even G Dog has to enter his numbers at least once per car. Because they are different than the default.
I just prefer to enter numbers that where calculated to the system than a number that feels alright for some cars and pretty ordinary for the rest.

BigDad
17-06-2016, 01:52
Update for Dirt Rally out and Game Feels Good!!! No More Rall X FFB issues!!!... Nope... Soo Far i cant Create 1 FFB to Rule them all for Dirt Rally...Its Not the Cars why i Cant its the Different Race Environments Ice, Snow, Tarmac, Gravel Dirt.... What Feels Good on Ice/Snow is Too Strong for Dirt, Gravel Tarmac abd Vice Versa .. 1 FFB to Rule all is a No Go:no:... LOL

Dirt ffb is perfect now.
Just set ffb on a per class setting.
4WD tarmac / gravel,snow
RWD tarmac / gravel, snow
FWD tarmac / gravel, snow
Gravel and snow can have the same settings as it's more about the loose surface.
I found this works well.
I guess that's why there are 10 presets.
Give it a go.

Fight-Test
17-06-2016, 02:08
Nope Not any More... 1 size fits all...Especially after Going to TF/RAC 75... Pick any 2 Cars that are Total oposite.

I think I'm just totally confused about your way of doing it. As soon as I think I understand I'm completely lost again. I haven't tried them in a few months and I think you made alot of changes since then.

gotdirt410sprintcar
17-06-2016, 03:03
Update for Dirt Rally out and Game Feels Good!!! No More Rall X FFB issues!!!... Nope... Soo Far i cant Create 1 FFB to Rule them all for Dirt Rally...Its Not the Cars why i Cant its the Different Race Environments Ice, Snow, Tarmac, Gravel Dirt.... What Feels Good on Ice/Snow is Too Strong for Dirt, Gravel Tarmac abd Vice Versa .. 1 FFB to Rule all is a No Go:no:... LOL

Yeah there is no way to do that on dirt, what I use is thrustmaster settings, move soft lock up to 150 and center force to around 25 too 50. I know it says when returning to track is how hard it will be but it seems to me I feel it driving drop it down low and see if it feels different to you next time you play.

self aligning torque is set at 95 from trustmaster this is your main setting, and I have been adding some wheel weight about 5% or so not to overwhelming I have a new car settings Old car settings rally x settings

skoader
17-06-2016, 03:09
Nope Not any More... 1 size fits all...Especially after Going to TF/RAC 75... Pick any 2 Cars that are Total oposite.

Rather than normalizing forces via the individual car master scales, the Grimey method effectively uses Relative Adjust to limit maximum force levels across the board. Cars that don't produce as much feedback in terms of overall strength will have more room to breath in that range before reaching the clamp while more powerful, high downforce cars will feel relatively heavier on turn in but then they're being limited by the same clamp. They'll also produce more aggressive spikes as Relative Adjust does its thing with those higher forces.

This isn't an approach I'd personally go for, specific types of feedback such as slip angle info are going to be a bit hit and miss depending on the strength of the underlying feedback from the car but I understand why some might like it. And if it suits you, then rock on! :)

Haiden
17-06-2016, 03:25
The other thing I get confused about is the idea that tuning is work. I get it, if you're trying to be a professional sim racer. In that case, I'm sure tuning can be an extensive process. Which, if you have professional aspirations, I'm sure you enjoy anyway, so it's a wash. :) But, as a casual racer, I don't need to go that far. On a track I'm familiar with, I only need about 5-7 laps to get a feel for what basic tuning changes I want to make--brake pressure and ducts, tire pressure, gearing. Another 5-7, and I'd tighten or soften the springs and AR bars and adjust the diff, if needed. Ride heights a no brainer. So basically 15 laps, is all it takes to significantly improve the car's handling, IMO. You could get all alien-like in-depth with it, if you wanted to, and make some big gains. But for my gaming and driving style, 15 laps is enough. Over time, I might make small adjustments here and there that further improve the handling, but that's my gaming style. I don't care if I improve the car slowly. Online sessions are good for that too, if there's a practice or qualifying session on a track I know well, I run my hot laps until I get close to my personal best, and then spend the rest of the time thinking about how the car handled and if there's any new settings I want try before or during the race. After a while, the car just starts to get more and more dialed in. To me, that seems natural. I don't see the point in running stock tunes in a sim I've been playing for a year. And the better I know a car, the easier/quicker I can dial it in from default, because I often find myself adjusting the same scales. The values might differ, but I know exactly what needs adjusting. It really doesn't take much time. In fact, the time for it almost seems built into the game play. :)

konnos
17-06-2016, 07:19
Wanted to see if Fanatec had any new rims in the works before buying the Porsche rim. Didn't want to spend the cash, and then see them release a similar Fanatec branded rim a few months later...LOL

They confirmed that they do not have any new rims in development at this time. :( I really wish the Porsche rim was black leather and Fanatec branded. I'm not really a fan of manufacturer branded rims, but it looks like I don't have choice this time.

Edit: Also interesting was the fact that they responded "No" to the rim question. But when I then asked if they had any DD wheels in development, the response was "Sorry we're not allowed to comment on development questions." I'll take that as a yes, since they were able to say no about the rims. :)

Poor you...looks like you ll need to settle for the Porsce rim... /grumble

Haiden
17-06-2016, 09:16
Poor you...looks like you ll need to settle for the Porsce rim... /grumble

I'm not complaining, or implying I'm settling. Just thinking about to the fact that licensing usually makes a product cost more. A similar rim without the Porsche label, would be a lot cheaper. I'm paying extra for a logo I didn't want in the first place. :) I'm assuming Fanatec's next full rim design will incorporate the lighter material they used for the Porsche rim, and be lighter than the current universal hub rim combos, regardless of its end look.

konnos
17-06-2016, 10:18
Well while that sounds reasonable, the Ferrari t300 and the "plain" T300 RS and GTE have similar prices and as far as I know are the same wheel pretty much, with different buttons of course. Enjoy your Porsche rim -_-

morpwr
17-06-2016, 10:41
Dirt ffb is perfect now.
Just set ffb on a per class setting.
4WD tarmac / gravel,snow
RWD tarmac / gravel, snow
FWD tarmac / gravel, snow
Gravel and snow can have the same settings as it's more about the loose surface.
I found this works well.
I guess that's why there are 10 presets.
Give it a go.

I may have to do that now.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 10:45
I think I'm just totally confused about your way of doing it. As soon as I think I understand I'm completely lost again. I haven't tried them in a few months and I think you made alot of changes since then.

I suggest at least trying them... They are Very well Balanced and are easy to adjust per car if you choose.
Nothing Complicated at all...im Not sure What is confusing you???

as Skoader pointed out i used the RAC to Normalize the FFB for all Cars and Balanced the TF to the RAC... Every Car Can Be Driven with the Same in Car Settings.

Note that Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SoP can be set to your Particular Taste if Needed.

GT3 Class seems to Have the Most Wheel weight/Grip Feel so i adjusted RAC and TF using GT3 to set and balance the Maximum amount of forces that will be felt...the wheel weight will Vary between Cars/Car Classes but can be easily adjusted by + or - with the in Car Masters until the Wheel and Car feels Right for you.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 11:28
Rather than normalizing forces via the individual car master scales, the Grimey method effectively uses Relative Adjust to limit maximum force levels across the board. Cars that don't produce as much feedback in terms of overall strength will have more room to breath in that range before reaching the clamp while more powerful, high downforce cars will feel relatively heavier on turn in but then they're being limited by the same clamp. They'll also produce more aggressive spikes as Relative Adjust does its thing with those higher forces.

This isn't an approach I'd personally go for, specific types of feedback such as slip angle info are going to be a bit hit and miss depending on the strength of the underlying feedback from the car but I understand why some might like it. And if it suits you, then rock on! :)

Exactly... But Basicly No one Can use or uses RAC 1.00 any way without having Clipping problems.

im at RAC 75 with Car Masters 100 that Can be adjusted +99 or -99 per Car.

IMO this way leaves the Most Room for Personal adjustment per Car/Car Class because Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz and SoP settings can be adjusted to individual preference and Car Masters can be +99 or -99 to adjust FFB Strength Level until the Wheel FFB strength Feels Right per Car if Needed...Once you find your Right Fx,Fy,SoP balance you will be able to use the same settings in every Car/Car Class or even adjust them per Car/Car Class if that works better for you... Different people Feel things Different ways...so it all depends on the individual user.
I have a Very Keen sense of touch so for Me using the Same FFB with every Car works and Feels Great!!!

some use RAC 85 to 92 ...Note 75 --> 92 its Not a Huge Difference the Big diff is the in Car Masters... I choose 100 masters to let Maximum FFB Forces Flow to the Relative system which IMO gives the Best FFB detail and Feel...Using Low car Masters with High RAG to Boost the FFB power Back up i dont understand especially with No Gains in FFB performance (Yes i have tested both ways and Notice No Gains in Subtle or Harsher FFB performance)...Shrugggs this way works for some but it seems to Me that they are just Cutting power 1 place just to add it back from another place... I dont understand this but if it works for those that use the system this way as you said Let them Rock on:yes:

What works for Me I use it... What Will Not work for Me i Leave it alone and Find No Need to Debate it because to each their own:yes:

poirqc
17-06-2016, 12:12
Exactly... But Basicly No one Can use or uses RAC 1.00 any way without having Clipping problems.

im at RAC 75 with Car Masters 100 that Can be adjusted +99 or -99 per Car.

IMO this way leaves the Most Room for Personal adjustment per Car/Car Class because Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz and SoP settings can be adjusted to individual preference and Car Masters can be +99 or -99 to adjust FFB Strength Level until the Wheel FFB strength Feels Right per Car if Needed...Once you find your Right Fx,Fy,SoP balance you will be able to use the same settings in every Car/Car Class or even adjust them per Car/Car Class if that works better for you... Different people Feel things Different ways...so it all depends on the individual user.
I have a Very Keen sense of touch so for Me using the Same FFB with every Car works and Feels Great!!!

some use RAC 85 to 92 ...Note 75 --> 92 its Not a Huge Difference the Big diff is the in Car Masters... I choose 100 masters to let Maximum FFB Forces Flow to the Relative system which IMO gives the Best FFB detail and Feel...Using Low car Masters with High RAG to Boost the FFB power Back up i dont understand especially with No Gains in FFB performance (Yes i have tested both ways and Notice No Gains in Subtle or Harsher FFB performance)...Shrugggs this way works for some but it seems to Me that they are just Cutting power 1 place just to add it back from another place... I dont understand this but if it works for those that use the system this way as you said Let them Rock on:yes:

What works for Me I use it... What Will Not work for Me i Leave it alone and Find No Need to Debate it because to each their own:yes:

bManic was able to do it when pairing RAs with Soft cliping. You can also use the "spicing" part of RAs when paired with a TF low enough that the compression element of RAs isn't needed.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 13:27
bManic was able to do it when pairing RAs with Soft cliping. You can also use the "spicing" part of RAs when paired with a TF low enough that the compression element of RAs isn't needed.

Thats Right!!! yes BMac Has sucessfully done that, Skoader can probably figure out a way to do it also:yes: But the Question is would there be any signifigant Benefit or Improvement to FFB feel??? and How would it fair across all Cars/Car Classes???

Doe's BMac use this as His Normal FFB or was this done as a Test to Validate that it can be done.

I will eventually get to testing the soft Clip system again to see if My FFB Method can be improved by using it... I dunno... What are your thoughts on this??? Do you think that My FFB settings can be improved using soft Clip settings???

Im on a Tweeker Break... LOL.... with all the Tweeking My Racing Lines and performance was Suffering Badly...My Racing kraft is Finally Back on Track:yes:.. as it is Now the FFB is Really at the point where i Really just can Enjoy and Love Racing Again!!!:yes: its the Best FFB to date that i have Ever Felt in Any Game PC or Console:yes:

Im Ready to Run any 1 want to Race??? Im Going to Be Running 24hr Lemans Track all weekend as i watch the Race!!! Im even doing Variable weather and time progression, 30 min Races with time ×2 so its Sun up to Sun up in 20 min:yes: any 1 want in??? I will probably run some fixed weather Races too.

Think i have a New Fave Car and Track too....I got the Gt4 Ginnetta to 1.05:7xx with Stock suspension on Hockenheim Short... its the Fastest GT4 on the Board right Now:victorious:

Just taking My time with all the Tracks and Cars enjoying them Right Now... I think im doing the Regular Caterham Next... That car is a Blast to Drive W/No assist!!!

Fight-Test
17-06-2016, 13:35
Grimey, I will give them another try. The last time I tried they felt good but was way to much road chatter, meaning the vibration motor was gonna nuts in the t300 and was masking the actual driving feel. It was like having a incredibly tight suspension or more lIke a kart. I'm pretty sure I remember someone else with t300 having same prob and you guys worked that out. I've been pretty happy with ffb since last summer. Been dialed in using haidens, then Mopwr and now spaces's version or mopwrs but I like trying them all and need to give yours a run again. I think the theory behind the one size is escaping my mind but need to drive a few cars to see what difference in feel is between them with same in car settings.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 14:39
Grimey, I will give them another try. The last time I tried they felt good but was way to much road chatter, meaning the vibration motor was gonna nuts in the t300 and was masking the actual driving feel. It was like having a incredibly tight suspension or more lIke a kart. I'm pretty sure I remember someone else with t300 having same prob and you guys worked that out. I've been pretty happy with ffb since last summer. Been dialed in using haidens, then Mopwr and now spaces's version or mopwrs but I like trying them all and need to give yours a run again. I think the theory behind the one size is escaping my mind but need to drive a few cars to see what difference in feel is between them with same in car settings.

Remember your Not Locked into using Masters 100 they can be adjusted to the FFB level that Fits you/Your wheel Best... you can Even adjust Fx,Fy,SoP to what you like to feel Most then Readjust the Masters to set the Final FFB strength... They are Very Flexable... Truth is they can be adjusted the same way you would adjust any other Tweek settings... The Big diff is the In Car Masters set at 100 and Can be + or - to get the feel that works best for you...You can use My Fx,Fy,SoP etc settings or you can set your Fx, Fy, SoP etc to taste... try the same setting in a Few Different cars and see how it feels... Those settings only determin How you feel Bumps, Curbs, Weight tranfer and if Needed you can custom set them per Car:yes: For Me 1 fits all works Great!!!

The Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz, SoP settings Have Nothing to do with the way the car Handles... They just Give info about how the Suspension tune is working.


PDF is on Front page.

poirqc
17-06-2016, 14:42
Thats Right!!! yes BMac Has sucessfully done that, Skoader can probably figure out a way to do it also:yes: But the Question is would there be any signifigant Benefit or Improvement to FFB feel??? and How would it fair across all Cars/Car Classes???

Doe's BMac use this as His Normal FFB or was this done as a Test to Validate that it can be done.

I will eventually get to testing the soft Clip system again to see if My FFB Method can be improved by using it... I dunno... What are your thoughts on this??? Do you think that My FFB settings can be improved using soft Clip settings???

Im on a Tweeker Break... LOL.... with all the Tweeking My Racing Lines and performance was Suffering Badly...My Racing kraft is Finally Back on Track:yes:.. as it is Now the FFB is Really at the point where i Really just can Enjoy and Love Racing Again!!!:yes: its the Best FFB to date that i have Ever Felt in Any Game PC or Console:yes:

Im Ready to Run any 1 want to Race??? Im Going to Be Running 24hr Lemans Track all weekend as i watch the Race!!! Im even doing Variable weather and time progression, 30 min Races with time ×2 so its Sun up to Sun up in 20 min:yes: any 1 want in??? I will probably run some fixed weather Races too.

Think i have a New Fave Car and Track too....I got the Gt4 Ginnetta to 1.05:7xx with Stock suspension on Hockenheim Short... its the Fastest GT4 on the Board right Now:victorious:

Just taking My time with all the Tracks and Cars enjoying them Right Now... I think im doing the Regular Caterham Next... That car is a Blast to Drive W/No assist!!!

It would seems it's how he run things (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?25046-bManic-s-latest-FFB-experiments-possibly-working-universally-for-all-wheels&highlight=bmanic), driving wise.

As for mixing Soft Clipping with RAs to replace RAC, it was more about a general statement that it can be done. Not that it's better.

From my point of view, RAC is only there to do compression to the signal. Most of the time, Soft Clipping both expand and compress the signal.

Haiden
17-06-2016, 15:56
Well while that sounds reasonable, the Ferrari t300 and the "plain" T300 RS and GTE have similar prices and as far as I know are the same wheel pretty much, with different buttons of course. Enjoy your Porsche rim -_-

I did say usually, not always. ;) But maybe sometimes is more accurate.

I will, thanks. Can't wait. :D

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 16:19
I did say usually, not always. ;) But maybe sometimes is more accurate.

I will, thanks. Can't wait. :D

For what its worth as a Porsche Rim Owner the Rim is Great Build quality!!! It is By Far the Best Rim Fanatec Made to date!!! Even after 1.5 yrs of use the Leather is still in Pristine Condition with No Signs of Visable wear and i dont wear Gloves while using it... I have Had No problems with the Buttons and it conveys the FFB effects Much Much Clearer than the Hub Rim Combo... Its a Great Purchase and i think you will be Very Happy with it.

GrimeyDog
17-06-2016, 19:36
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zp713Evu5m4/hqdefault.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp713Evu5m4)


I'm just going to set this right here for your Consideration:yes:
I'm very excited about this!!!

RobboCod
17-06-2016, 20:43
Grimey,
Do you have any smoothing on for any of the in car scales, fx mz etc? Or do you leave them at zero? I wanted to try your settings out for a comparison. I'm looking at your pdf but not seen them mentioned.
Cheers.

morpwr
17-06-2016, 20:55
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zp713Evu5m4/hqdefault.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp713Evu5m4)


I'm just going to set this right here for your Consideration:yes:
I'm very excited about this!!!

Cant wait to try it. I just hope all the rest of the games coming aren't let downs. Gt was like that in the beginning. I just couldn't play anything else after it .Now pcars is the same way. Everything else feels to much like a gamey.

skoader
17-06-2016, 23:48
Thats Right!!! yes BMac Has sucessfully done that, Skoader can probably figure out a way to do it also:yes: But the Question is would there be any signifigant Benefit or Improvement to FFB feel???
IIRC tennenbaum was running with RA disabled. This was an approach I also took for some time. I'm barely hitting the clamp now and could probably turn it off without any significant impact. It only requires that you have the car scales setup so that the entire range of forces reside in the appropriate 'force to wheel' window (0.0 - 1.0). The real benefit is that you're getting an accurate representation of the entire range of forces that the car is producing. This isn't possible if forces are being aggressively clamped/limited.


I will eventually get to testing the soft Clip system again to see if My FFB Method can be improved by using it... I dunno... What are your thoughts on this??? Do you think that My FFB settings can be improved using soft Clip settings???
If I was using a CSW v2 I'd probably run with no RA, SC or Scoop. The wheel has a reasonably linear response and I believe it's powerful enough to render low level forces well, so I'd want to be feeding raw forces straight in there as cleanly as possible.
I was planning to pick one up, but I'm going to wait and see what the new Thrustmaster offering will bring to the table now before committing either way. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-06-2016, 15:50
Boy those stick and ball sports eff up my racing everytime, I didn't want to record GOLFFFF FS1

GrimeyDog
18-06-2016, 16:03
Boy those stick and ball sports eff up my racing everytime, I didn't want to record GOLFFFF FS1

You can watch it on TV...its on the Speed Channel... ot Fox Sports Channels.... Im watching it

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-06-2016, 16:12
Don't have speed channel that's what fs1 took over boy was I pissed. I been watching it I was re recording it too but I got golf lol

Its funny they keep saying how stong so and so is but they only have 400 miles under race conditions lol

GrimeyDog
19-06-2016, 00:32
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/V214bZsftpQ/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=320&h=180&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=JdhWbn1Fq88VBxSFBZjKPa2vijk

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V214bZsftpQ)Road C1class BMW 1 series M coupe...Video shows Pit exit as i run 3 Laps at Nubergring GP showing tire performance as they heat up.
I can Clearly feel the difference between Cold, Warm and hot tires!!!
Nubergring GP is a pretty smooth track but even when the FFB Graph line is relatively flat in the corners pay attention to the friction rings around the tires... I can clearly feel all of the in the wheel:yes:

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-06-2016, 01:53
I think i'm staying in the 60ish knee 27 reduction feels best to me that's what wheel check gave me the first time high 80s knee high reduction feels to different but maybe my deadzones are not right with morpwr settings

GrimeyDog
19-06-2016, 03:15
I think i'm staying in the 60ish knee 27 reduction feels best to me that's what wheel check gave me the first time high 80s knee high reduction feels to different but maybe my deadzones are not right with morpwr settings

Your Number Seem about Right... Im using 68/24 Wheel Check seems to Give High High #'s that put you in Range but you still have to Fine tune by Feel.

vahagn_hayk
19-06-2016, 04:26
Haiden/ Grimey - made switch to PC yet?

GrimeyDog
19-06-2016, 04:34
Haiden/ Grimey - made switch to PC yet?


Not yet... I do Play PC racing Asetto Corsa, RFactor2, Race pro... But i need a more powerful PC to Run Pcars:mad:
Im waiting for SMS to Donate a High End P.C for all the tweek work:o then i would tweek for PC also:yes: I cant justify spending $1,500 to 2,000 just to play Pcars on PC:no: + $40 because id have to buy Pcars for PC also:(

Haiden
19-06-2016, 05:45
Haiden/ Grimey - made switch to PC yet?

I'm waiting for Assetto Corsa to come out on consoles before I decided, but even if I do, it won't be until next year. My niece is staying with me next school year for her last year at a local university. Saves her a crap load in dorm fees, but ties up my second room, where the rig will be going. :(

konnos
19-06-2016, 15:19
Move her to the basement, simples

morpwr
19-06-2016, 15:40
I think i'm staying in the 60ish knee 27 reduction feels best to me that's what wheel check gave me the first time high 80s knee high reduction feels to different but maybe my deadzones are not right with morpwr settings

Its very possible they are off some. You have a t500 right?

morpwr
19-06-2016, 15:50
Haiden/ Grimey - made switch to PC yet?

Not sure its even worth it with the new consoles coming out now. Especially with ms releasing the specs for theirs now sony has to counter with something better it looks like. With the performance they are talking I'm not sure I could justify dropping 2000 dollars on a pc when youre going to be able to pick up a console for 600 or less. I guess if you want to run all the toys that's one thing but it looks like even that stuff is being looked at for consoles now. dd wheels are coming now and ill bet it wont be long before motion rigs are here for them too.

Haiden
19-06-2016, 19:00
Not sure its even worth it with the new consoles coming out now. Especially with ms releasing the specs for theirs now sony has to counter with something better it looks like. With the performance they are talking I'm not sure I could justify dropping 2000 dollars on a pc when youre going to be able to pick up a console for 600 or less. I guess if you want to run all the toys that's one thing but it looks like even that stuff is being looked at for consoles now. dd wheels are coming now and ill bet it wont be long before motion rigs are here for them too.

I agree. Right now, to me, the real draws for PC are the mods and league options. Graphics and processor wise, I'm fine with current consoles, and they're only going to get better. I'm not really interested in iRacing's pay-to-play model, so if AC on console is as decent as the PC version, I've got less incentive to switch.

Fight-Test
19-06-2016, 20:28
I agree. Right now, to me, the real draws for PC are the mods and league options. Graphics and processor wise, I'm fine with current consoles, and they're only going to get better. I'm not really interested in iRacing's pay-to-play model, so if AC on console is as decent as the PC version, I've got less incentive to switch.

I hope ac is good but I don't think it will make many waves on console. It's nice that it's on $50 bucks but what, only 14 tracks and we have 10 of them in pcars(not counting the test track etc.) The pc version has so many mods that seem to be the big draw to it on pc. I hope I'm wrong but I would rather 1 car and ton of tracks than a bunch of cars and few tracks. Not that it has more cars even. No dynamic lighting or weather, hopefully they got ai pitting and taking fuel by then or no offline endurance racing. Seems like a basic first iteration console version to get kinks worked out and make some money so they can liscense more and make the second version alot more robust. Alot of good reviews for ac but they always incude the mods.

Haiden
19-06-2016, 21:05
I hope ac is good but I don't think it will make many waves on console. It's nice that it's on $50 bucks but what, only 14 tracks and we have 10 of them in pcars(not counting the test track etc.) The pc version has so many mods that seem to be the big draw to it on pc. I hope I'm wrong but I would rather 1 car and ton of tracks than a bunch of cars and few tracks. Not that it has more cars even. No dynamic lighting or weather, hopefully they got ai pitting and taking fuel by then or no offline endurance racing. Seems like a basic first iteration console version to get kinks worked out and make some money so they can liscense more and make the second version alot more robust. Alot of good reviews for ac but they always incude the mods.

I kind of just want it for some of the cars that aren't in PCars. Forza feels way to strange to play, but I miss driving the Ferrari. AC might be better for league play, too. I'm sure it'll have it's bugs in the beginning. But if the multiplayer is stable, you could put those fourteen tracks to good use. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-06-2016, 01:34
Its very possible they are off some. You have a t500 right?

Yeah I got a T500

GrimeyDog
20-06-2016, 09:04
Not sure its even worth it with the new consoles coming out now. Especially with ms releasing the specs for theirs now sony has to counter with something better it looks like. With the performance they are talking I'm not sure I could justify dropping 2000 dollars on a pc when youre going to be able to pick up a console for 600 or less. I guess if you want to run all the toys that's one thing but it looks like even that stuff is being looked at for consoles now. dd wheels are coming now and ill bet it wont be long before motion rigs are here for them too.

They are Already Testing Sim Vibe For Console... and It works!!! It works off the UDP just like the Apps!!! There is a Video of it being used on ISR.

morpwr
20-06-2016, 11:03
They are Already Testing Sim Vibe For Console... and It works!!! It works off the UDP just like the Apps!!! There is a Video of it being used on ISR.

Looks like there could be a lot of good things coming for console players in the near future.

morpwr
20-06-2016, 11:07
Yeah I got a T500

I would expect the scoops and deadzones to be different with your wheel. Id just go by what the fcm gave you and tweak from there.

Haiden
20-06-2016, 12:00
Looks like there could be a lot of good things coming for console players in the near future.

Definitely some good stuff in the works. I wish they were truly stand alone console app, though. That SimVibe software I saw, still needs to be run on a PC. Granted, you wouldn't need a gaming level PC to run it. But I think I'd just go full PC, before I built a console/PC hybrid rig.

gazza1101
20-06-2016, 19:48
They are Already Testing Sim Vibe For Console... and It works!!! It works off the UDP just like the Apps!!! There is a Video of it being used on ISR.
Any chance of a link to the video?

GrimeyDog
20-06-2016, 21:58
Any chance of a link to the video?

I saw it on the "Inside Sim Racing" web sit... I think i linked the Video in here but cant remember for sure if i did or what page it would be on... Maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.

oege
21-06-2016, 06:25
Any chance of a link to the video?

Watch the video from 40mins.

https://youtu.be/iYoXH4BNo9M

GrimeyDog
21-06-2016, 11:10
Very Quiet in Here... Does that mean every 1 has found their FFB Sweet spot???

Haiden
21-06-2016, 11:14
Watch the video from 40mins.

https://youtu.be/iYoXH4BNo9M

This is the one I saw, too. This one makes even less sense. If you spend the money on a motion setup, why skimp on the PC and run it on console? Especially when you need a PC to run the software anyway. It's great that they are able to do this via UDP, but I don't see the practical sense in the hybrid PC/console motion setup. Using UDP to run SimVibe is far less impractical, but for a motion rig? I don't see the sense in that at all.

gazza1101
21-06-2016, 12:33
Watch the video from 40mins.

https://youtu.be/iYoXH4BNo9M
Thanks

gazza1101
21-06-2016, 12:54
This is the one I saw, too. This one makes even less sense. If you spend the money on a motion setup, why skimp on the PC and run it on console? Especially when you need a PC to run the software anyway. It's great that they are able to do this via UDP, but I don't see the practical sense in the hybrid PC/console motion setup. Using UDP to run SimVibe is far less impractical, but for a motion rig? I don't see the sense in that at all.
I have PC cars on console and pc, I think a lot of people want this type of thing on a console, they like me may have a PC that does not have the grunt to play a game at any nice detail level but already have a console, it does sound like a pain having to have a PC run Simvibe as well as a console but it would be a compromise that I would be happy to make, there is also software from xsimulator coming out in the near future that will do the same thing��

GrimeyDog
21-06-2016, 13:09
I have of cars on console and pc, I think a lot of people want this type of thing on a console, they like me may have a PCs that does not have the grunt to play a game at any nice detail level but already have a console, it does sound like a pain having to have a PCs run Simvibe as well as a console but it would be a compromise that I would be happy to make, there is also software from xsimulator coming out in the near future that will do the same thing��

Agree 100% it makes total sense...its the Best of Both worlds and its Not like you have to buy extra equipment to make it work.

Fight-Test
21-06-2016, 13:15
I kind of just want it for some of the cars that aren't in PCars. Forza feels way to strange to play, but I miss driving the Ferrari. AC might be better for league play, too. I'm sure it'll have it's bugs in the beginning. But if the multiplayer is stable, you could put those fourteen tracks to good use. :)

You have stability issues? Game runs smooth as butter for me online since last year. I still get a invisible wall online maybe once every few weeks but only when I forget to restart game after messing with ffb. I do have guy I run with that gets random drops. But he only has the option of using the wifi on ps4. 3hr league never has drops or probs and all 16 seem to finish every time. I guess it's been since last sumer they got the online squared away.

Haiden
21-06-2016, 14:37
I have of cars on console and pc, I think a lot of people want this type of thing on a console, they like me may have a PCs that does not have the grunt to play a game at any nice detail level but already have a console, it does sound like a pain having to have a PCs run Simvibe as well as a console but it would be a compromise that I would be happy to make, there is also software from xsimulator coming out in the near future that will do the same thing��

Like I said, using it for SimVibe isn't as odd. But for a motion rig? If you have the budget for a motion rig, then I'd venture to guess you've got the money to buy a decent PC. :) Sorry. But slaving a PC to run a motion rig via UDP, so you can play the sim on console doesn't make any sense to me. Doing it for SimVibe is definitely an option, though. If the console could control the motion rig directly, then I think that would be cool. But if I'm dropping a few grand on a motion rig, I'm not hooking it up to a $500 console. Maybe that's just me, though. Whatever works for you. :)

Haiden
21-06-2016, 14:45
You have stability issues? Game runs smooth as butter for me online since last year. I still get a invisible wall online maybe once every few weeks but only when I forget to restart game after messing with ffb. I do have guy I run with that gets random drops. But he only has the option of using the wifi on ps4. 3hr league never has drops or probs and all 16 seem to finish every time. I guess it's been since last sumer they got the online squared away.

By stability I mean things like the game stuttering when someone joins the session. I don't know anyone that doesn't experience this. If you don't, you're extremely lucky. I've had more quali hot laps blown because of this than I can even count. Nothing like entering the braking zone and preparing to turn in, just as the game stutters. In a session with a short quali time, or if you come into the quali late, that's ruins the lap. I also experience the FFB glitch where it's fine during quali, but when the race session loads, it's a little corrupted and doesn't feel exactly right with grinding in the corners. That doesn't happen too often, but when it does, it's the kind of crap that ruins the race. PCars also needs better match making. Not a stability issue, but not being able to see session details from the browser is kind of lame and wastes time.

Fight-Test
21-06-2016, 17:27
By stability I mean things like the game stuttering when someone joins the session. I don't know anyone that doesn't experience this. If you don't, you're extremely lucky. I've had more quali hot laps blown because of this than I can even count. Nothing like entering the braking zone and preparing to turn in, just as the game stutters. In a session with a short quali time, or if you come into the quali late, that's ruins the lap. I also experience the FFB glitch where it's fine during quali, but when the race session loads, it's a little corrupted and doesn't feel exactly right with grinding in the corners. That doesn't happen too often, but when it does, it's the kind of crap that ruins the race. PCars also needs better match making. Not a stability issue, but not being able to see session details from the browser is kind of lame and wastes time.

Yea I get that grind issue every so often also. The little hiccup when someone joins rarely effects me on track but I know you run a lot of faster open wheels so I can see that being a issue for you. Truthfully if I'm in a public lobby I rarely put a time down because I don't wanna be in front at the start, plus it's more fun to run everyone down(everyone who didn't quit after the first corner disaster). Seems that most guys are 2 to 3 seconds off pace so hitting a good laps rarely matters as maybe I'm lucky to have 1 fast guy to race against in open lobbies. In league play we don't let anyone in once qualification starts to eliminate that.

Haiden
21-06-2016, 17:52
Yea I get that grind issue every so often also. The little hiccup when someone joins rarely effects me on track but I know you run a lot of faster open wheels so I can see that being a issue for you. Truthfully if I'm in a public lobby I rarely put a time down because I don't wanna be in front at the start, plus it's more fun to run everyone down(everyone who didn't quit after the first corner disaster). Seems that most guys are 2 to 3 seconds off pace so hitting a good laps rarely matters as maybe I'm lucky to have 1 fast guy to race against in open lobbies. In league play we don't let anyone in once qualification starts to eliminate that.

Yeah, you're right. In GT3s the stutter isn't really a problem. But in the FA it can throw you off your line almost every time. The FFB grind is terrible when it happens, because it just makes cornering feel god awful.

With the FA races, I usually try to put down a good quali time, especially if damage is on, because I find a lot of people can't come off the start line well in that car, and they spin out. If you're in the back, you have to negotiate that mess. But if you're up front (1-4), you usually get to pull away, and then don't have to worry about the bumper car crowd. Of course, it depends on the track. If you don't get enough gap before the first tight corner, they might run up your arse. :)

I ran a few GT3 races on the Nurburgring Combine over the weekend. I only bothered with a hot lap one time, and even then I didn't really push. Most people in public sessions don't know the Nordschleife well enough to be competitive, so they're easy to catch and pass. Although, sometimes you run up behind a pad user that's twerking all over the place and you just can't get around him, until you get to a wider area. Lose too much time messing with those guys, and the leaders will get a gap you can't catch.

That's a good rule for league play. I still hope SMS figures out what the deal is with the stutter and fixes it for PCars2.

Fight-Test
21-06-2016, 19:17
Yeah, you're right. In GT3s the stutter isn't really a problem. But in the FA it can throw you off your line almost every time. The FFB grind is terrible when it happens, because it just makes cornering feel god awful.

With the FA races, I usually try to put down a good quali time, especially if damage is on, because I find a lot of people can't come off the start line well in that car, and they spin out. If you're in the back, you have to negotiate that mess. But if you're up front (1-4), you usually get to pull away, and then don't have to worry about the bumper car crowd. Of course, it depends on the track. If you don't get enough gap before the first tight corner, they might run up your arse. :)

I ran a few GT3 races on the Nurburgring Combine over the weekend. I only bothered with a hot lap one time, and even then I didn't really push. Most people in public sessions don't know the Nordschleife well enough to be competitive, so they're easy to catch and pass. Although, sometimes you run up behind a pad user that's twerking all over the place and you just can't get around him, until you get to a wider area. Lose too much time messing with those guys, and the leaders will get a gap you can't catch.

That's a good rule for league play. I still hope SMS figures out what the deal is with the stutter and fixes it for PCars2.

I immediately return to pit when I feel the grind. I'm scared with it will cause a issue if I continue. Really bad on t300.

Fight-Test
21-06-2016, 19:32
Sorry double post

Shogun613
21-06-2016, 20:41
I've been doing some tinkering of my own to accentuate road feel, curbs, and weight transfer. Here are two tests with telemetry, please let me know how they could improve, if you have the time. I posted the settings in the video descriptions...

https://youtu.be/MvT7u_yvQQk


https://youtu.be/JMnr11rVf54

Haiden
21-06-2016, 20:51
Tried a Race Weekend set up with the Lotus 78 Cosworth on the Nurburgring Combine. Oh, man is that a great car/track combo. :encouragement: Saw the AI making a lot of mistakes in that car, too. Way more than usual.

driveclub007
21-06-2016, 22:00
What type of wheel are you using and what dead zones with those settings

Shogun613
21-06-2016, 22:08
What type of wheel are you using and what dead zones with those settings

I'm using a G29, deadzone at 0, DRR .20, DRF .02

driveclub007
21-06-2016, 22:15
Ok thanks I have a T300 might give them a go tonight most wheels feel better with no scoops

Shogun613
21-06-2016, 22:19
Ok thanks I have a T300 might give them a go tonight most wheels feel better with no scoops

Sounds good... any feedback or opinions would be much appreciated!

Haiden
21-06-2016, 23:17
Ok thanks I have a T300 might give them a go tonight most wheels feel better with no scoops

I agree. I like the feel of no scoops much better.

konnos
22-06-2016, 08:26
Actually, no scoops is perfectly fine when turning, I liked it. The only thing I didn't like was my wheel getting warmer than usual, ok that's just me being a cheapskate, and there was almost no gradual rise in forces from straight to turned. Not that's it's a lot better with scoops, but it was more obvious without. As soon as i install AC in my room I'm going to start using no scoops again... we have a heatwave here and it's not pretty without AC, 38-42C

driveclub007
22-06-2016, 09:27
https://youtu.be/t7X-pCyMd3k This is a new direct drive wheel in action

GrimeyDog
22-06-2016, 11:07
https://youtu.be/t7X-pCyMd3k This is a new direct drive wheel in action

Good Video!!! The FFB explanation was pretty Good and informative... I wonder if he was getting clipping why he felt less when he turned the FFB settings up??? Hmmm i wonder... The way his wheel was reacting when onntrack looks very much the same as My V2 handles when inndriving.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 11:17
I agree. I like the feel of no scoops much better.

Yes but your wheel is very close to linear to begin with where the t300 isn't.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 12:09
Actually, no scoops is perfectly fine when turning, I liked it. The only thing I didn't like was my wheel getting warmer than usual, ok that's just me being a cheapskate, and there was almost no gradual rise in forces from straight to turned. Not that's it's a lot better with scoops, but it was more obvious without. As soon as i install AC in my room I'm going to start using no scoops again... we have a heatwave here and it's not pretty without AC, 38-42C


Yes but your wheel is very close to linear to begin with where the t300 isn't.

Yep. I wouldn't try it unless your wheel has a smooth, near-linear curve. The T300 curves I've seen have to many peaks and dips. You need Scoops to straighten that rise out. But the CSW-v2 is so close to linear that Scoops aren't worth it, IMO.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 12:33
Yep. I wouldn't try it unless your wheel has a smooth, near-linear curve. The T300 curves I've seen have to many peaks and dips. You need Scoops to straighten that rise out. But the CSW-v2 is so close to linear that Scoops aren't worth it, IMO.

Exactly.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 13:20
Exactly.

I tried turning off the RAs, too. I had been running the Nurburgring Combine, so I just kept the session settings the same and drove it there. It felt good and, at first, I thought I was going to have to do some comparative testing. But when I tried it at Silverstone, it only took a half a lap to tell something was off. When I ran through the Maggots, Becketts and Chapel combo, I realized what it was. The feeling of weight transfer was greatly reduced with RAs off.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 13:54
I tried that too a while back and had the same results. It will be interesting to see what we need to use when dd wheels start coming to consoles.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 14:27
I tried that too a while back and had the same results. It will be interesting to see what we need to use when dd wheels start coming to consoles.

I would hope the DD wheels have a more/enough fidelity to pull it off. The weight transfer feel wasn't missing, it just wasn't as strong. So a DD might be able to pull it off.

GrimeyDog
22-06-2016, 15:02
I tried that too a while back and had the same results. It will be interesting to see what we need to use when dd wheels start coming to consoles.

I think the DD wheels are going to feel the same... just Maybe a little stronger and thats a Maybe... The V2 is very strong the T300 & TX also... Depending on Game setting you cant use either 1 at 100% power its just too Much.

I think DD will feel the same because the principals of FFB will still be the same... which Means FFB will be deliverd the same way just to a different wheel type/Brand... The wheel FW will also play a part in How FFB signals are teanslated into FFB feel... That Maybe the only True Difference... But even still i dont think it will Vary much between wheels DD or Belt Driven.... Gear based Non servi Motor wheels are a different story.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 16:24
I think the DD wheels are going to feel the same... just Maybe a little stronger and thats a Maybe... The V2 is very strong the T300 & TX also... Depending on Game setting you cant use either 1 at 100% power its just too Much.

I think DD will feel the same because the principals of FFB will still be the same... which Means FFB will be deliverd the same way just to a different wheel type/Brand... The wheel FW will also play a part in How FFB signals are teanslated into FFB feel... That Maybe the only True Difference... But even still i dont think it will Vary much between wheels DD or Belt Driven.... Gear based Non servi Motor wheels are a different story.

I think the TM DD wheel will basically feel closer to the current CSW-v2. But if Fanatec releases a DD wheel. I think it will be a little stronger than the current CSW-v2, but the main improvement will be even better fidelity and response. Otherwise, what's the point? You'd just have a more expensive CSW-v2.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 16:26
I think the DD wheels are going to feel the same... just Maybe a little stronger and thats a Maybe... The V2 is very strong the T300 & TX also... Depending on Game setting you cant use either 1 at 100% power its just too Much.

I think DD will feel the same because the principals of FFB will still be the same... which Means FFB will be deliverd the same way just to a different wheel type/Brand... The wheel FW will also play a part in How FFB signals are teanslated into FFB feel... That Maybe the only True Difference... But even still i dont think it will Vary much between wheels DD or Belt Driven.... Gear based Non servi Motor wheels are a different story.

I think youre missing the mechanical differences and why dd wheels are so good. The motor and no drivetrain should make a huge difference because you wont have mechanical loses. Even your csw loses some of the ffb because of the belt and pulleys. Even the pulley ratio makes a difference.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 16:58
I think youre missing the mechanical differences and why dd wheels are so good. The motor and no drivetrain should make a huge difference because you wont have mechanical loses. Even your csw loses some of the ffb because of the belt and pulleys. Even the pulley ratio makes a difference.

Exactly. We already know DD wheels are better than both gear and belt, because they're already on the market. :) TM and Fanatec probably won't use as powerful of a motor as some of the high-end models currently on the market (although I suspect Fanatec's will have more power than TM's), but having the motor driving the wheel without any intermediate parts is obviously going to give you better fidelity. And even if they were able to use the same motor as the current belt driven models, it would still feel a lot stronger, because a lot of the current motor's power is lost to the pulleys and gears. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if TM's new wheel matched the CSW-v2's strength, but exceeded it in fidelity.

driveclub007
22-06-2016, 19:41
I think the proof is in lap times with scoops or not I can shave a full second off most of my times with no scoops

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-06-2016, 20:14
I think the TM DD wheel will basically feel closer to the current CSW-v2. But if Fanatec releases a DD wheel. I think it will be a little stronger than the current CSW-v2, but the main improvement will be even better fidelity and response. Otherwise, what's the point? You'd just have a more expensive CSW-v2.

I think your going to be surprised haven't you guys watched any videos on dd wheel very strong.

GrimeyDog
22-06-2016, 20:28
I think youre missing the mechanical differences and why dd wheels are so good. The motor and no drivetrain should make a huge difference because you wont have mechanical loses. Even your csw loses some of the ffb because of the belt and pulleys. Even the pulley ratio makes a difference.


I agree with what your saying 100% were on the same page... what i was saying is i don't think it will be a night and day difference in the FFB feel.
yes i agree that the DD wheel because its direct driven from the motor will suffer less FFB detail Loss but IMO the overall Level of FFB detail increase will not be of monumental proportions.

While trying to gather info on the TM DD wheel I've been doing a tad bit of research investigating what would be the gains of purchasing a DD wheel or the TM wheel it when it comes out... Sooo far i haven't been convinced that the gains would be enough to upgrade from the V2...but in any event i want to know as much as possible about the diff between CSW v2 and DD wheel feel so when TM releases their wheel i can Pre order on day 1 if i choose and know that the purchase will be a Notable step forward in FFB feel...if the diff is just slightly better feel i don't think i will buy it... I will wait it out to see what Fanatec comes up with first or just maybe invest in the new PS4 or gaming PC...too many choices and None of them are cheap...LOL... sheeeish since Jan 2016 alone between the RS1, CSP v3 pedals, CSS SQ shifter and Hand brake I'm already past $1,500 just blown on sim Gear and that's not even counting all the other little odds and ends...This stuff adds up quick!!!

GrimeyDog
22-06-2016, 20:35
I think your going to be surprised haven't you guys watched any videos on dd wheel very strong.

Yes the power will be there but you cant ever use it all...and this is very dependent upon the FFB motor used in the wheel...to keep it cost effective i hope that a cheap motor is not used because the Motor is the heart of the wheel... i cant even use the V2 with on wheel FFB at 100%:no: that's just too strong to race with... only thing that will make it a worth while investment is if there is a Notable increase in FFB fidelity:yes:


https://youtu.be/0YzmcRHg-c4

Check this video on DD Motors...very good info when he is talking about the power diff between the motors.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 20:53
I think the proof is in lap times with scoops or not I can shave a full second off most of my times with no scoops
Same here. I've set my fastest lap times across various circuits with no scoops and extra road feel with higher fz and SOP diff values.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 21:15
[QUOTE=GrimeyDog;1290147]Yes the power will be there but you cant ever use it all...and this is very dependent upon the FFB motor used in the wheel...to keep it cost effective i hope that a cheap motor is not used because the Motor is the heart of the wheel... i cant even use the V2 with on wheel FFB at 100%:no: that's just too strong to race with... only thing that will make it a worth while investment is if there is a Notable increase in FFB fidelity:yes:

I'm sure it wont be as strong as the high end only because of the safety issue. But like you said I don't think it really needs to be that strong either. Even at my 68 ffb it has a realistic weight to it as compared to the real cars ive driven and even on the high end wheels you don't see anyone wrestling them. The strength just allows for more fidelity. Pcars has an amazing range of ffb effects its just we can feel them all at one time. Unfortunately with the wheels we have now its a compromise.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 21:28
Same here. I've set my fastest lap times across various circuits with no scoops and extra road feel with higher fz and SOP diff values.

Whose car settings are you using just out of curiousity? Because no scoops with a t300 seems like something else is off somewhere if your faster without them. Without them the wheel will become very non linear and will exaggerate some forces and weaken others. So youll lose the progressive wheel weight with grip and cornering normally.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 22:05
Whose car settings are you using just out of curiousity? Because no scoops with a t300 seems like something else is off somewhere if your faster without them. Without them the wheel will become very non linear and will exaggerate some forces and weaken others. So youll lose the progressive wheel weight with grip and cornering normally.
I'm using a G29... The scoops feel like they keep the smaller details subdued, at least in my opinion. I posted two vids a few pages back with telemetry. I can feel the rear digging in, the point of grip loss, and the gear changes under heavy braking, along with the dips, ruts, and curbs.

Haiden
22-06-2016, 22:10
I think the proof is in lap times with scoops or not I can shave a full second off most of my times with no scoops


Same here. I've set my fastest lap times across various circuits with no scoops and extra road feel with higher fz and SOP diff values.

Since I disabled the Scoops, I've been matching my best lap times without the use of KERS or DRS (gains of anywhere from 0.500 to 1.0 seconds). I also feel like I have better control of the car, in terms of pushing it closer to the grip limits with more confidence in my ability to not only sense when it's right on the edge, but to also pull it back if I go too far.

Also, the fact that the CSW-v2's default curve wasn't that far from the linear line to begin with makes me wonder if the Scoop processing is doing more than just reduction, because the FCM's recommended Scoop settings for my wheel was 0.68/0.09. That Knee is very close to the middle, and the reduction is pretty low. So I'm really surprised by how much of a difference it makes (loss of detail) when I apply that small Scoop adjustment.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 22:15
Since I disabled the Scoops, I've been matching my best lap times without the use of KERS or DRS (gains of anywhere from 0.500 to 1.0 seconds). I also feel like I have better control of the car, in terms of pushing it closer to the grip limits with more confidence in my ability to not only sense when it's right on the edge, but to also pull it back if I go too far.

Also, the fact that the CSW-v2's default curve wasn't that far from the linear line to begin with makes me wonder if the Scoop processing is doing more than just reduction, because the FCM's recommended Scoop settings for my wheel was 0.68/0.09. That Knee is very close to the middle, and the reduction is pretty low. So I'm really surprised by how much of a difference it makes (loss of detail) when I apply that small Scoop adjustment.

That's exactly my issue with scoops, it's the detail lost that could make a difference.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 23:04
That's exactly my issue with scoops, it's the detail lost that could make a difference.

Are you still using wps at default? That will definitely hurt the smaller details.

morpwr
22-06-2016, 23:07
I'm using a G29... The scoops feel like they keep the smaller details subdued, at least in my opinion. I posted two vids a few pages back with telemetry. I can feel the rear digging in, the point of grip loss, and the gear changes under heavy braking, along with the dips, ruts, and curbs.

Not having any idea what the scoops are supposed to be for that wheel I cant suggest anything. But if they are off it will definitely cause issues.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 23:07
Are you still using wps at default? That will definitely hurt the smaller details.
My wheel position smoothing is at 0. What value do you suggest?

morpwr
22-06-2016, 23:14
My wheel position smoothing is at 0. What value do you suggest?

Zero otherwise you lose too much small detail. Have you ran the fcm on your wheel?

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 23:21
Not having any idea what the scoops are supposed to be for that wheel I cant suggest anything. But if they are off it will definitely cause issues.

The scoops are for ramping up the stronger forces at a certain value, I.e. the knee. Below the knee, smaller details are kept below a certain level.
Without scoops, I keep the massive spikes under control by setting a RAG just below the ceiling, a value of .95 or .98. The RAC is the point where high torque forces will come in, so I set that at .75, with a tire force of 80. If your bleed value is too low, absolute torque will spike the forces in too fast and shoot them to the RAG instantly. I have a bleed value of 1.00, so it slows down those spikes and keeps the majority of the forces spread out nicely between the clamp (.75), and the gain (.98). Ive been playing with the values for a long time, and that's the understanding I've come up with... I could be waaay off, but at least I've found something that feels good to me.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 23:23
Zero otherwise you lose too much small detail. Have you ran the fcm on your wheel?

I haven't run FCM as I'm not really concerned about keeping it linear or not, I just want the ffb to feed me the details I want to feel. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin with that anyway, lol...

Haiden
22-06-2016, 23:38
I haven't run FCM as I'm not really concerned about keeping it linear or not, I just want the ffb to feed me the details I want to feel. I honestly wouldn't know where to begin with that anyway, lol...

It's actually way easier than you think. I though like you, until a couple months ago. Turns out, if you can read the instructions in the download post and operate a mouse, you can consider yourself overqualified to use that tool. :) Doesn't even take ten minutes.

Shogun613
22-06-2016, 23:46
It's actually way easier than you think. I though like you, until a couple months ago. Turns out, if you can read the instructions in the download post and operate a mouse, you can consider yourself overqualified to use that tool. :) Doesn't even take ten minutes.

Sounds good, I'll give it a go later on...

morpwr
23-06-2016, 00:08
The scoops are for ramping up the stronger forces at a certain value, I.e. the knee. Below the knee, smaller details are kept below a certain level.
Without scoops, I keep the massive spikes under control by setting a RAG just below the ceiling, a value of .95 or .98. The RAC is the point where high torque forces will come in, so I set that at .75, with a tire force of 80. If your bleed value is too low, absolute torque will spike the forces in too fast and shoot them to the RAG instantly. I have a bleed value of 1.00, so it slows down those spikes and keeps the majority of the forces spread out nicely between the clamp (.75), and the gain (.98). Ive been playing with the values for a long time, and that's the understanding I've come up with... I could be waaay off, but at least I've found something that feels good to me.

Bleed is sort of weird because its an actual time in seconds or part of actually. On the t300 if the bleed is higher than .03 the forces start to hang. Like braking or the rear stepping out. Most here have found lower values work better.Id really try the fcm with out otherwise its a crap shoot and you could spend months trying combinations and never hit the right one. Don't be afraid to turn the bleed down because it will do strange things if set high that youll have to compensate for somewhere else. Are you using jacks car settings for the cars? The scoops will depend on what your wheel does as far as being linear. All youre trying to do is balance the forces coming from the wheel. That way they can ramp up as evenly as possible. So lets say you wheel is already stronger at the lower forces and weaker at the upper ones. Using scoops you can balance that so youll feel them more. Yes the lower forces may feel a little weaker but that isn't necessarily bad as most of of us have found because the difference between the forces will become bigger and more obvious.

skoader
23-06-2016, 00:42
Scoop doesn't inherently cost you detail. If your wheels natural response curve sets off very steeply and you're using scoop to level it out then yes, below the knee you'll lose some definition in that range by comparison, but then you're gaining definition above the knee. The whole point of a linear response (and the reason scoop was developed) is to create nice even definition across the entire force range which most low-mid end wheels lack, particularly at higher force levels.

I do have a G29, but don't really use it anymore. It has an odd response curve in that it has a large deadzone then sets off quite steeply, hits a hard knee and flattens out before ramping up again near max force. IMO it's at its best with a mix of Scoop and Soft Clip. I'll see if I can find my old settings.

Edit: Couldn't find my numbers, but this is pretty close to the setup I was using.

DRR 0.15
DRF 0.02

Scoop Knee 0.70
Scoop Reduction 0.64

Soft Clip Half 0.60
Soft Clip Full 1.00

Steering Gain 1.0

Force Feedback 100

Also be sure tire forces are well dialled in and you aren't overpowering Relative Adjust.

With that said, different strokes for different folks and if you're happy with where you're at then you should run with it. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-06-2016, 01:37
The gt3 is like that too maybe not a big deadzone etc. But I never ran wheel check, I was using soft clipper the hole time I had the wheel.

GrimeyDog
23-06-2016, 02:38
Scoop doesn't inherently cost you detail. If your wheels natural response curve sets off very steeply and you're using scoop to level it out then yes, below the knee you'll lose some definition in that range by comparison, but then you're gaining definition above the knee. The whole point of a linear response (and the reason scoop was developed) is to create nice even definition across the entire force range which most low-mid end wheels lack, particularly at higher force levels.

I do have a G29, but don't really use it anymore. It has an odd response curve in that it has a large deadzone then sets off quite steeply, hits a hard knee and flattens out before ramping up again near max force. IMO it's at its best with a mix of Scoop and Soft Clip. I'll see if I can find my old settings.

I tried My settings with Scoop off... I ended up Reducing on the wheel FFB to 65 and increasing RAB to 12... once i did that the Scoop VS No Scoop feel was almost identical excep that with Scoops on there is More wheel weight fluctuation throughout the the wheels turning Range... Both Feel Good but im staying with Scoops On the added wheel weight fluctuations seem to provide useful information about weight transfer and Loss of Grip.... Just My thought.


Side Note... Has Any 1 Noticed a Diff in how thr wheel feels since the Last PS4 update??? I think it was Monday...The wheel center was feeling Spongy and Loose...I Reset the Global settings and all went back to the Norm:yes:...This could have just been 1 of those Random Pcars Glitches and may have Nothing to do with the update... Shrugggs.... Random Question to see if any 1 else noticed anything different or strange

There was No info given about the update other than it improves overal system performance...

skoader
23-06-2016, 04:30
I tried My settings with Scoop off... I ended up Reducing on the wheel FFB to 65 and increasing RAB to 12... once i did that the Scoop VS No Scoop feel was almost identical excep that with Scoops on there is More wheel weight fluctuation throughout the the wheels turning Range... Both Feel Good but im staying with Scoops On the added wheel weight fluctuations seem to provide useful information about weight transfer and Loss of Grip.... Just My thought.

That's what I'd expect with your settings Grimey. Forces are spending a lot of time around the RA clamp at 0.75. With the scoop knee at 0.68 small fluctuations around that clamp are magnified because scoop is making the force slope steeper there.

I updated my previous post with settings.

morpwr
23-06-2016, 11:05
I tried My settings with Scoop off... I ended up Reducing on the wheel FFB to 65 and increasing RAB to 12... once i did that the Scoop VS No Scoop feel was almost identical excep that with Scoops on there is More wheel weight fluctuation throughout the the wheels turning Range... Both Feel Good but im staying with Scoops On the added wheel weight fluctuations seem to provide useful information about weight transfer and Loss of Grip.... Just My thought.


Side Note... Has Any 1 Noticed a Diff in how thr wheel feels since the Last PS4 update??? I think it was Monday...The wheel center was feeling Spongy and Loose...I Reset the Global settings and all went back to the Norm:yes:...This could have just been 1 of those Random Pcars Glitches and may have Nothing to do with the update... Shrugggs.... Random Question to see if any 1 else noticed anything different or strange

There was No info given about the update other than it improves overal system performance...

I haven't noticed any change since the update.

RobboCod
23-06-2016, 12:21
Guys,
Does anyone have any recommendations for using a bit of the BODY settings? Will it interfere with ffb settings negatively is my biggest concern. I've heard you can get a bit extra weight ahift feel and sliding feel out of it.

GrimeyDog
23-06-2016, 13:05
Guys,
Does anyone have any recommendations for using a bit of the BODY settings? Will it interfere with ffb settings negatively is my biggest concern. I've heard you can get a bit extra weight ahift feel and sliding feel out of it.

Body Scale is Not Working... The Bit that i played with that setting you can tell it would Give Good info about weight trasnfer but it just Locks the wheel up on what ever side activates it.... Its Broken.

Jack Spade
23-06-2016, 13:08
Guys,
Does anyone have any recommendations for using a bit of the BODY settings? Will it interfere with ffb settings negatively is my biggest concern. I've heard you can get a bit extra weight ahift feel and sliding feel out of it.

Body basically is side load force similar like Fy and SopLateral but only derived from a different source IMO not needed at all as it covers up
what´s directly derived from car physics.

Also, it´s not part of the common Tire Force/Scales multiplier chain and post Relative Gain which makes balancing more complicated.

GrimeyDog
23-06-2016, 13:44
Body basically is side load force similar like Fy and SopLateral but only derived from a different source IMO not needed at all as it covers up
what´s directly derived from car physics.

Also, it´s not part of the common Tire Force/Scales multiplier chain and post Relative Gain which makes balancing more complicated.

So your sating Body Scale works and its just Not being adjusted correctly??? or is it Broken and unusable???

RobboCod
23-06-2016, 13:50
Thanks Grimey and Jack. I'll leave well enough alone. I'm liking the feel of Jacks classic settings but don't always feel I can tell when the rear gets loose. I'm running slightly adapted morpwr settings as per what the FCM gave me. What would I need to adjust to try get more rear feel?

Haiden
23-06-2016, 14:28
Bleed is sort of weird because its an actual time in seconds or part of actually. On the t300 if the bleed is higher than .03 the forces start to hang. Like braking or the rear stepping out. Most here have found lower values work better.Id really try the fcm with out otherwise its a crap shoot and you could spend months trying combinations and never hit the right one. Don't be afraid to turn the bleed down because it will do strange things if set high that youll have to compensate for somewhere else. Are you using jacks car settings for the cars? The scoops will depend on what your wheel does as far as being linear. All youre trying to do is balance the forces coming from the wheel. That way they can ramp up as evenly as possible. So lets say you wheel is already stronger at the lower forces and weaker at the upper ones. Using scoops you can balance that so youll feel them more. Yes the lower forces may feel a little weaker but that isn't necessarily bad as most of of us have found because the difference between the forces will become bigger and more obvious.

I wonder if this has to do with the wheel's native response time. I used to run RAB=0.10 (once had it as high as 0.12). I lowered it to 0.04 a while back, but tried it at 0.08 this morning and the very next lap seemed to feel noticeably better. I didn't have time to full explore it, but I plan to tonight.

Jack Spade
23-06-2016, 14:41
Thanks Grimey and Jack. I'll leave well enough alone. I'm liking the feel of Jacks classic settings but don't always feel I can tell when the rear gets loose. I'm running slightly adapted morpwr settings as per what the FCM gave me. What would I need to adjust to try get more rear feel?

Try any of my SopLateral settings as this force is directly derived from the rear tires, there´s no wrong or right with those just a matter of taste.

GrimeyDog
23-06-2016, 14:41
I wonder if this has to do with the wheel's native response time. I used to run RAB=0.10 (once had it as high as 0.12). I lowered it to 0.04 a while back, but tried it at 0.08 this morning and the very next lap seemed to feel noticeably better. I didn't have time to full explore it, but I plan to tonight.

I been using RAB 0.08 for a bit Now... Feels Very Good i had it set to 12 with updates 6,7,8 but when i lowered the RAC 12 bleed off was too Much and made the FFB Harsher than Needed....0.08 also give the wheel center a tighter more direct Feel with Less Harsh but Clearly Felt FFB effects feel.

Koza_Nostra
23-06-2016, 14:53
morpwr - your Deadzone Removal Falloff is 0.02

Does that mean all the way to the left and then 2 clicks to the right or...?

Thanks

Jack Spade
23-06-2016, 15:03
So your sating Body Scale works and its just Not being adjusted correctly??? or is it Broken and unusable???

The body stuff works as SMS indented, my point was there´s no reason to use it as there are 2 types of side load forces already adjustable within
the common multiplier chain, a third version of side load is overkill, again in this case less is more.

RobboCod
23-06-2016, 21:33
Try any of my SopLateral settings as this force is directly derived from the rear tires, there´s no wrong or right with those just a matter of taste.

I used to use them to be honest but switched to classic and I like the overall feel but can't always tell I'm losing rear traction. How doable is adding in some SoP lateral to the classic settings? Would this cause big issues regarding rest of ffb feel?

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-06-2016, 22:11
I have added 0.10 sop lateral feels fine to me wheel weight changes some

Shogun613
23-06-2016, 22:16
I used to use them to be honest but switched to classic and I like the overall feel but can't always tell I'm losing rear traction. How doable is adding in some SoP lateral to the classic settings? Would this cause big issues regarding rest of ffb feel?
In my experience, you have to set the Master and SOP lateral values at a number where the mix doesn't cause clipping while cornering. Otherwise, it dosent take away too much from the other forces .

morpwr
23-06-2016, 22:40
morpwr - your Deadzone Removal Falloff is 0.02

Does that mean all the way to the left and then 2 clicks to the right or...?

Thanks

I think that's from my old settings. But it was .02 not 2 clicks. The new drf is.016.

morpwr
23-06-2016, 22:46
Thanks Grimey and Jack. I'll leave well enough alone. I'm liking the feel of Jacks classic settings but don't always feel I can tell when the rear gets loose. I'm running slightly adapted morpwr settings as per what the FCM gave me. What would I need to adjust to try get more rear feel?

If you are using your own scoop values id try starting with the sk and move it up or down one and see how it feels. Then do the same with sr. It does have a very noticeable effect on grip feel you may have just missed your sweet spot a little. One other thing is are the tires staying warmed up ? If they don't stay close to optimum temps they will feel snappy loose same goes for cooking them.

morpwr
23-06-2016, 22:52
I wonder if this has to do with the wheel's native response time. I used to run RAB=0.10 (once had it as high as 0.12). I lowered it to 0.04 a while back, but tried it at 0.08 this morning and the very next lap seemed to feel noticeably better. I didn't have time to full explore it, but I plan to tonight.

I honestly don't know. I just know what happens with the t300.lol I know with different rag and rac values the rab still seems to work the same. Higher rab values and the forces start to hang. Thats very possible though and possibly why you guys with v2 wheels can get away with more than I can.

Shogun613
23-06-2016, 22:53
If you are using your own scoop values id try starting with the sk and move it up or down one and see how it feels. Then do the same with sr. It does have a very noticeable effect on grip feel you may have just missed your sweet spot a little. One other thing is are the tires staying warmed up ? If they don't stay close to optimum temps they will feel snappy loose same goes for cooking them.
I finally ran my wheel through FCM, and have been playing with scoop values of SK .40 and SR .10. It feels similar to what I had with no scoops, just a bit more subdued road feel. The less reduction there is, the more road feel there is. I like road feel, so I'm going to jump back and forth to see what I can settle on.

morpwr
23-06-2016, 23:12
I finally ran my wheel through FCM, and have been playing with scoop values of SK .40 and SR .10. It feels similar to what I had with no scoops, just a bit more subdued road feel. The less reduction there is, the more road feel there is. I like road feel, so I'm going to jump back and forth to see what I can settle on.

Don't confuse exaggerated road feel to better overall feel. Many of us did this in the beginning. Most of us made the painted start finish line at the glen feel like a speed bump. But in the process you lose some finer detail without realizing it. It took most of us a night or two to adjust. I know i tried it multiple times and kept saying what you are until I actually gave it a chance. I know once I started closing in on a more balanced linear setting it was really amazing how much you can feel. I know for myself the road detail got slightly weaker but the tire scrub and grip feel got better. The other thing is you may need to bump your ffb master up one or two to compensate.

RobboCod
23-06-2016, 23:18
If you are using your own scoop values id try starting with the sk and move it up or down one and see how it feels. Then do the same with sr. It does have a very noticeable effect on grip feel you may have just missed your sweet spot a little. One other thing is are the tires staying warmed up ? If they don't stay close to optimum temps they will feel snappy loose same goes for cooking them.

Many thanks, I'll try your suggestions out. The fcm gave me SK 0.81 and a 0.83 after some good use, SR 0.40 and also a 0.42. DRR 0.10 and a 0.11. They aren't so far from yours but if one click gives alot of difference then perhaps that sweet spot has eluded me as you say. I've only really looked at the tires in terms of the colours, and they are always green no going cold or overheating. Been testing in the formula c.

morpwr
23-06-2016, 23:39
They can be green even if they are cold. Try and see what they start at in a race or time trial that's where you want them. Generally 180-200 degrees will work. If your in the 160-170s they are cold. One click isn't night and day but its definitely noticeable between road feel,braking and grip. I thought you got a better range of forces with the sk higher. sr id look for what gives you the most comfortable balance between grip and brake feel. You can exaggerate the forces too much and weird things start to happen. Like hitting rumble strips and it spinning the car right out or just touching the dirt/grass. Granted some tracks you just don't want to touch the rumble strips but it shouldn't be the case everywhere.lol You can make rear grip weird with the settings too it will get hard to catch if they are way off.

Haiden
24-06-2016, 00:54
I used to use them to be honest but switched to classic and I like the overall feel but can't always tell I'm losing rear traction. How doable is adding in some SoP lateral to the classic settings? Would this cause big issues regarding rest of ffb feel?


In my experience, you have to set the Master and SOP lateral values at a number where the mix doesn't cause clipping while cornering. Otherwise, it dosent take away too much from the other forces .

It's actually the Master Scale and SoP Scale that you want to keep the same. If you add a little SoP Lat, you'll need to take a little off the Fy scale to compensate. They both work in the same spectrum and Fy forces are one of the strongest. If you just add SoP Lat, without balancing the Fy, it probably won't feel right. Take a look at Jack's settings, compare the classic settings to the Sop Lateral settings. You'll quickly see that the primary difference is how he's balancing Fy and Sop Lat.


I honestly don't know. I just know what happens with the t300.lol I know with different rag and rac values the rab still seems to work the same. Higher rab values and the forces start to hang. Thats very possible though and possibly why you guys with v2 wheels can get away with more than I can.

That makes sense--what you said about higher RABs. Different wheels probably have different tolerances, and then add personal taste/tactile sense to it. Anything over 0.10 feel way too mushy to me. I think that's the hanging feel you're talking about. The force changes are just slow and laggy.

Haiden
24-06-2016, 01:06
Porsche rim came today! It's gonna be a late night. :)

I can't believe how much lighter it is, compared to the GT rim with the universal hub. It's almost the same weight as my smaller F1 rim.

skoader
24-06-2016, 01:12
I wonder if this has to do with the wheel's native response time. I used to run RAB=0.10 (once had it as high as 0.12). I lowered it to 0.04 a while back, but tried it at 0.08 this morning and the very next lap seemed to feel noticeably better. I didn't have time to full explore it, but I plan to tonight.

Indeed, there could be something to this. IIRC TM wheels have the slowest update rates. I could see this in FCM and could probably add dedicated tests to spit these numbers out - Update rates/force resolution etc.

morpwr
24-06-2016, 01:20
Indeed, there could be something to this. IIRC TM wheels have the slowest update rates. I could see this in FCM and could probably add dedicated tests to spit these numbers out - Update rates/force resolution etc.

That would be very interesting to be able to compare between wheels. That might make a lot of sense if tm response rates are really slow and why i notice that hanging effect so much. To me its really noticable and feels completely wrong compared to a real car.

Haiden
24-06-2016, 01:29
Indeed, there could be something to this. IIRC TM wheels have the slowest update rates. I could see this in FCM and could probably add dedicated tests to spit these numbers out - Update rates/force resolution etc.

Yeah... that's exactly what I mean. Because I can't seem to replicate the feeling that Morpwr's described, unless I raise RAB above 0.10. That's when it's starts to feel like what he's getting with RAB values above 0.02. I could totally see the wheel's update rates affecting RAB. Interesting.

Jack Spade
24-06-2016, 05:25
I used to use them to be honest but switched to classic and I like the overall feel but can't always tell I'm losing rear traction. How doable is adding in some SoP lateral to the classic settings? Would this cause big issues regarding rest of ffb feel?

The sum of side load force is identical in all tweaker versions their mix balance is different - the Sop versions are 33% and 66% amount of SopLateral.
Just adding SopLateral to the Classic version will increase side load forces unnecessarily which causes saturation by turning the wheel.

RobboCod
24-06-2016, 08:14
They can be green even if they are cold. Try and see what they start at in a race or time trial that's where you want them. Generally 180-200 degrees will work. If your in the 160-170s they are cold. One click isn't night and day but its definitely noticeable between road feel,braking and grip. I thought you got a better range of forces with the sk higher. sr id look for what gives you the most comfortable balance between grip and brake feel. You can exaggerate the forces too much and weird things start to happen. Like hitting rumble strips and it spinning the car right out or just touching the dirt/grass. Granted some tracks you just don't want to touch the rumble strips but it shouldn't be the case everywhere.lol You can make rear grip weird with the settings too it will get hard to catch if they are way off.


I'll keep a close eye on the temps then and maybe just have to adjust pressures a bit. Thanks for the advice. I have had some very snappy spin outs but I'm driving at Imola and the curbs are high. Perhaps it is also an opportunity for me to get better at how I navigate the track.

RobboCod
24-06-2016, 08:23
It's actually the Master Scale and SoP Scale that you want to keep the same. If you add a little SoP Lat, you'll need to take a little off the Fy scale to compensate. They both work in the same spectrum and Fy forces are one of the strongest. If you just add SoP Lat, without balancing the Fy, it probably won't feel right. Take a look at Jack's settings, compare the classic settings to the Sop Lateral settings. You'll quickly see that the primary difference is how he's balancing Fy and Sop Lat.



That makes sense--what you said about higher RABs. Different wheels probably have different tolerances, and then add personal taste/tactile sense to it. Anything over 0.10 feel way too mushy to me. I think that's the hanging feel you're talking about. The force changes are just slow and laggy.

Yes, I noticed the reduction in the classic fy settings to allow for SoP lateral. I was trying to see if there was a way to leave fy as it was and still increase the rear feel. It is quickly becoming apparent that my scoops are the culprit.

GrimeyDog
24-06-2016, 10:28
Yes, I noticed the reduction in the classic fy settings to allow for SoP lateral. I was trying to see if there was a way to leave fy as it was and still increase the rear feel. It is quickly becoming apparent that my scoops are the culprit.

For Me when i add too Much Fy it takes away more feel than it gives... It will Lighten the wheel up during turn in but kills Road feel.

morpwr
24-06-2016, 11:20
Yes, I noticed the reduction in the classic fy settings to allow for SoP lateral. I was trying to see if there was a way to leave fy as it was and still increase the rear feel. It is quickly becoming apparent that my scoops are the culprit.

Scoops are tough because they can make the ffb do strange things and its difficult to tell whats right and wrong sometimes. The effects get changed or reproduced at our wheel differently just by changing them a little bit. It helped me trying cars on cold tires to see how they felt. If you have a really hard time on cold tires they are probably off some. You should clearly be able to feel the grip it just wont be as good until the tires heat up. The clio and focus are good for testing because the rears don't heat up being fwd. These should be very drivable with the default setups except for dropping the air pressure some.

Haiden
24-06-2016, 11:20
I honestly don't know. I just know what happens with the t300.lol I know with different rag and rac values the rab still seems to work the same. Higher rab values and the forces start to hang. Thats very possible though and possibly why you guys with v2 wheels can get away with more than I can.

I think I'm going with RAB=0.08, at least for the time being ;) . Lower values also feel really good, but at 0.08, I feel I have more fine steering control. It seems easier to set the car on the line I want, and I also think I'm getting better progression in weight when cornering.

Also, I toyed with WPS, after seeing you mention it in another post. Set to 0.00, I was getting some really nasty, gritty jolts in the wheel. I tried 0.02 and it was better. I also immediately noticed how much clearer the FFB felt. It turns out, 0.03 is the sweet spot for me (0.02 felt a little too rattly). It's crazy, but there's a big difference in feel from the default 0.04 and a single click down to 0.03. Everything feels sharper/crisper by a few degrees. To me the difference in feel is as noticeable as the visual change of going from helmet view to regular cockpit view. The FFB just feels more vibrant.

Now, it might be a CSW-v2 thing, or it might also be because I'm using PWM for drag reduction. But regardless of whether or not either of those things are related, I'd say it's worth a shot turning WPS down a click or two and feeling the difference. :)

Of course, that was last night. I'll probably boot it up today and think it feels like crap...LOL

morpwr
24-06-2016, 11:30
I think I'm going with RAB=0.08, at least for the time being ;) . Lower values also feel really good, but at 0.08, I feel I have more fine steering control. It seems easier to set the car on the line I want, and I also think I'm getting better progression in weight when cornering.

Also, I toyed with WPS, after seeing you mention it in another post. Set to 0.00, I was getting some really nasty, gritty jolts in the wheel. I tried 0.02 and it was better. I also immediately noticed how much clearer the FFB felt. It turns out, 0.03 is the sweet spot for me (0.02 felt a little too rattly). It's crazy, but there's a big difference in feel from the default 0.04 and a single click down to 0.03. Everything feels sharper/crisper by a few degrees. To me the difference in feel is as noticeable as the visual change of going from helmet view to regular cockpit view. The FFB just feels more vibrant.

Now, it might be a CSW-v2 thing, or it might also be because I'm using PWM for drag reduction. But regardless of whether or not either of those things are related, I'd say it's worth a shot turning WPS down a click or two and feeling the difference. :)

Of course, that was last night. I'll probably boot it up today and think it feels like crap...LOL

That's what I felt with wps. Again I think part of the reason you cant go as low is the our wheels. I'm guessing the v2 is a lot faster. With mine I can just not use it and all the weaker forces get noticeably better without rattling.

RobboCod
24-06-2016, 12:23
Scoops are tough because they can make the ffb do strange things and its difficult to tell whats right and wrong sometimes. The effects get changed or reproduced at our wheel differently just by changing them a little bit. It helped me trying cars on cold tires to see how they felt. If you have a really hard time on cold tires they are probably off some. You should clearly be able to feel the grip it just wont be as good until the tires heat up. The clio and focus are good for testing because the rears don't heat up being fwd. These should be very drivable with the default setups except for dropping the air pressure some.

Nice one, thanks. I'm loading the game up shortly to start testing so will try one of those cars and see how I get on.

GrimeyDog
24-06-2016, 13:02
Nice one, thanks. I'm loading the game up shortly to start testing so will try one of those cars and see how I get on.

you can try the Gt4 Ginetta... it starts with cold tires but has a race car suspension...you will really notice a perfomance increase as the tires heat up.... Stock tune feels good to Me... But then again i drive everything with stock tune... LOL!!!

RobboCod
24-06-2016, 13:08
[QUOTE=morpwr;1290490]Scoops are tough because they can make the ffb do strange things and its difficult to tell whats right and wrong sometimes. The effects get changed or reproduced at our wheel differently just by changing them a little bit. It helped me trying cars on cold tires to see how they felt. If you have a really hard time on cold tires they are probably off some. You should clearly be able to feel the grip it just wont be as good until the tires heat up. The clio and focus are good for testing because the rears don't heat up being fwd. These should be very drivable with the default setups except for dropping the air pressure some.[/QUOTE

I noticed in the settings I had linkage stiffness and linkage damping set to 1.0 each. I turned these all off and did some laps, I am unsure what they may have been affecting or not? With these left off I left SR at 0.41 and put SK to 0.82 then 0.83. I'm definitely finding that rear grip loss somewhat I believe. As the back end comes round and I counter steer the wheel stiffens up, am I along the right lines here?

RobboCod
24-06-2016, 13:16
you can try the Gt4 Ginetta... it starts with cold tires but has a race car suspension...you will really notice a perfomance increase as the tires heat up.... Stock tune feels good to Me... But then again i drive everything with stock tune... LOL!!!

Ah, nice one, thanks Grimey! I'm in GT4 for my career at the moment as it happens but using the Vantage. I too leave the tuning as is for the most part.