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poirqc
19-10-2015, 16:38
RA Only adjust How Much Torque is applyed or Bled Off When Hitting Curbs Bumps or Road Surface Changes.... It Bleeds off or adds Torque to change the Wheel weight and create Road Feel, Weight Transfer etc.

Scoop sets the Slope(Shallow/Dull or Steep/Harsh) of the FFB Forces... top # Sets the Curve/Slope of the Stronger Forces bottom sets the Curve/Slop of lower Forces.... Just My Theory...

Spot on

b_akerlite
19-10-2015, 18:08
Going by that description is there a case for keeping ffb and tire force at 100 as well as 1.0 multipliers in the individual car ffb setups and then starting from say 40 on the RA Gain and working your way up till you have the wheel weight you desire??? Or is this a bad way of doing it??

gruzzlebeard
19-10-2015, 18:54
I tested it going from RA 20 upwards. I haven't got good results before 90. But we have different wheels and we are on PS4. You cannot compare the hardware.

tpw has a description in his post how he found the sweat spot with his G27. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34527-FFB-Experiments-with-Relative-Adjust-parameters&p=1038876&viewfull=1#post1038876 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34527-FFB-Experiments-with-Relative-Adjust-parameters&p=1038876&viewfull=1#post1038876)

GrimeyDog
19-10-2015, 19:56
Going by that description is there a case for keeping ffb and tire force at 100 as well as 1.0 multipliers in the individual car ffb setups and then starting from say 40 on the RA Gain and working your way up till you have the wheel weight you desire??? Or is this a bad way of doing it??

IMO its a Badway of Doing it because you Get at the wheel Clipping... at the wheel clipping can Not be seen in the Graph but can Clearly be felt at the wheel...Even on PC when they set in Game to 100% FFB its still Not 100% the FFB level is set by what ever they have set in the Controler Profile.

IMO Set every thing the way you like it then Move the Master FFB up until you start Losing FFB Effects (= Clipping at the wheel) then back it of until FFB feels Normal again. just my way of Doing it because with 100% in game FFB and at the possibility of at the wheel Clipping you Never Know whats Screwed your settings or the wheel is Clipping.

gruzzlebeard
22-10-2015, 09:11
Here is a video with my latest settings based on FFB 50, TF100, changed Relative Adjust, higher Scoop Reduction and CSW V2 wheel-tuning DRI "003" applied and doubled Master and SoP Scale values.

Works nicely together and creates an nice subtle feedback. Wheel feels more accurate, direct and lighter. Need to check if some minor tweaks and tests with TF, SG and car FFB are making further improvements. But for the moment I'm happy with it.

Car FFB settings for RUF GT3:
Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10

SoP Sc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huBcoUSRz5A

Telemetry data & oscillations "New setup":
220665

Telemetry data & oscillations "Old setup":
220670

CSW V2 in-wheel settings: FF "100", DRI "003" FOR/Spr/Dpr = 100
Global in-game settings: FFB 50, TF 100, RA 0.98/0.12/0.92, Skoop 0.86/0.28, PWM +0.02/PWMS -0.02/PMS 0.04, DRR 0.03/DRF 0.001, Advanced "OFF"

Car FFB settings for RUF GT3:
Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10

SoP Sc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100

gruzzlebeard
22-10-2015, 17:33
RA Only adjust How Much Torque is applyed or Bled Off When Hitting Curbs Bumps or Road Surface Changes.... It Bleeds off or adds Torque to change the Wheel weight and create Road Feel, Weight Transfer etc.

Scoop sets the Slope(Shallow/Dull or Steep/Harsh) of the FFB Forces... top # Sets the Curve/Slope of the Stronger Forces bottom sets the Curve/Slop of lower Forces.... Just My Theory.

Edit: IMO the Scoop impacts Wheel Linearity...
Have you Tried those Sop with My in car Settings and the Advanced Setiings Tab Off and On to Compair the Difference between the two feelings?
Also Fx,Fy,Fz is a 3D image of the Car with Fx Representing the Front Bumper IMO that setting Provides very Little Feeling about whats going on with the Car and Should be set Low and the Fy= Left and Right Should be set Higher to Give More Weught transfer Feel...Fx= Vertical/Bump, Curb Feel Should be set according to how Strong you want to feel Those effects.

Edit: I dont use any Dri Settings and my Spr and Dpr are 100...and with the V2 having such Precise steering input all of my PWM settings are 0 so i can Have 1 to 1 wheel Movement Sync with the Game.... IMO other wheels may need the PWM but the V2, T300 and TX do Not.... Not sure about the T500.

I reset the wheel and tested your new settings (all global and car FFB) I find them very good. Especially the road feel is better as in my version. This might come from the different Car FFB settings. The only thing is that I'm getting sometimes more or less heavy jerks on my wheel when cornering and this feels a bit notchy. You can see this also in the telemetry data.

Could you post a new video with your latest telemetry data? I have the suspicion that my game profile didn't saved your data correctly. I did a wheel reset before I entered your settings.

Here is the video of my telemetry data with your settings for a comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I65_M6OYQDI

I know your former setup was very strong with high amplitudes. Now the wheel feels smother and with less wheel weight as in earlier version. The telemetry data are still higher then mine but much lower then in your last version. Is this correct?

GrimeyDog
23-10-2015, 01:14
https://youtu.be/gU4ymkXMmR0


Its All about Good Global Settings to Get Good FFB feel... Car 100% un Tuned, No Aero, No Tire PSI adjustment.... I Can Get a 1.43.xxx because i Get Sooo Much Road, Weight Transfer, Bump Feel I Can Really Push the Car Harder than Ever.... This is My best Tweek yet.

inthebagbud
23-10-2015, 05:23
Grime

Been a fly on the wall to this thread and wondered whether you had messed with the tx settings for the xbox anymore , been messing with lower game ffb and more in car for a while now and still can't get the level of definition you can with the csw

In your last video what was car & track so I can see how mine compares

Thanks

gruzzlebeard
23-10-2015, 08:51
https://youtu.be/gU4ymkXMmR0


Its All about Good Global Settings to Get Good FFB feel... Car 100% un Tuned, No Aero, No Tire PSI adjustment.... I Can Get a 1.43.xxx because i Get Sooo Much Road, Weight Transfer, Bump Feel I Can Really Push the Car Harder than Ever.... This is My best Tweek yet.

I tested your latest settings and compared the videos. The results are 100 % identical in terms of telemetry data. So I have obviously no issue with my game save. I think you smoothened and tamed a bit your high force amplitudes and you have got a bit more details in comparison to earlier versions.

Thanks for sharing all your information over the last months.

Indeed the transfer of road feel and grip with your settings is excellent. I still suffer a bit with the wheel behavior but this are really small nuances in comparison to my current setup. I'm very happy with that too even if we are using a slightly different approach for global settings and especially for car FFB setups.

I will still stick for a while to your setup in order to get more time for testing. Maybe I will try to tweak from there some settings to get the wheel more to my taste. But in general I have now the direction and have settled my FFB to maybe a 90 % solution.

Fre.Mo
23-10-2015, 09:25
Here is a video with my latest settings based on FFB 50, TF100, changed Relative Adjust, higher Scoop Reduction and CSW V2 wheel-tuning DRI "003" applied and doubled Master and SoP Scale values.

Works nicely together and creates an nice subtle feedback. Wheel feels more accurate, direct and lighter. Need to check if some minor tweaks and tests with TF, SG and car FFB are making further improvements. But for the moment I'm happy with it.

Car FFB settings for RUF GT3:
Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10

SoP Sc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huBcoUSRz5A

Telemetry data & oscillations "New setup":
220665

Telemetry data & oscillations "Old setup":
220670

CSW V2 in-wheel settings: FF "100", DRI "003" FOR/Spr/Dpr = 100
Global in-game settings: FFB 50, TF 100, RA 0.98/0.12/0.92, Skoop 0.86/0.28, PWM +0.02/PWMS -0.02/PMS 0.04, DRR 0.03/DRF 0.001, Advanced "OFF"

Car FFB settings for RUF GT3:
Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10

SoP Sc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100


Could you please recall the differences between old and new settings?

gruzzlebeard
23-10-2015, 09:29
Could you please recall the differences between old and new settings?

This are the new settings like in my signature: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31999-fanatec-csw-v2-settings-on-ps4&p=1153387&viewfull=1#post1153387
Old settings:http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?31999-fanatec-csw-v2-settings-on-ps4&p=1002174&viewfull=1#post1002174

GrimeyDog
23-10-2015, 10:40
I tested your latest settings and compared the videos. The results are 100 % identical in terms of telemetry data. So I have obviously no issue with my game save. I think you smoothened and tamed a bit your high force amplitudes and you have got a bit more details in comparison to earlier versions.

Thanks for sharing all your information over the last months.

Indeed the transfer of road feel and grip with your settings is excellent. I still suffer a bit with the wheel behavior but this are really small nuances in comparison to my current setup. I'm very happy with that too even if we are using a slightly different approach for global settings and especially for car FFB setups.

I will still stick for a while to your setup in order to get more time for testing. Maybe I will try to tweak from there some settings to get the wheel more to my taste. But in general I have now the direction and have settled my FFB to maybe a 90 % solution.

There is alot of Room to Play with the in Car FFB settings.
I have also went Back to 25% in Game Master FFB and 80% on wheel FFB... 50% in Game FFB i seem to lose some small Datail with finer Forces... 35% in game FFB for me is the Max that i have Not notice loss of finer detail... Try Lowering the in Game to 35% or below that Should get rid of the at the wheel FFB Spikes.

GrimeyDog
23-10-2015, 11:50
Grime

Been a fly on the wall to this thread and wondered whether you had messed with the tx settings for the xbox anymore , been messing with lower game ffb and more in car for a while now and still can't get the level of definition you can with the csw

In your last video what was car & track so I can see how mine compares

Thanks

Track Watkins Glen GP , Ruff RGT8 GT3
I will Make New adjustments to the TX and post the update for you.

The FFB detail is there with the TX only difference is its Not as powerful as the V2 but can feel just as good... The Power diff is No Big Deal because i dont use 100% FFB on the v2... it will be too strong to Race with if i do...So with that the TX and V2 are almost even.

inthebagbud
23-10-2015, 12:03
Track Watkins Glen GP , Ruff RGT8 GT3
I will Make New adjustments to the TX and post the update for you.

The FFB detail is there with the TX only difference is its Not as powerful as the V2 but can feel just as good... The Power diff is No Big Deal because i dont use 100% FFB on the v2... it will be too strong to Race with if i do...So with that the TX and V2 are almost even.

That would be great and the car is fine as that is what I test with so will be good to compare the FFB settings

GrimeyDog
23-10-2015, 13:42
That would be great and the car is fine as that is what I test with so will be good to compare the FFB settings

https://youtu.be/LTHacN4MdvI

Here is a Video of My TX FFB test.... its pretty Much the same as my V2 Tweek the Changes are Noted in the Video... I will Post any New Changes tonight when i do more Testing.

GrimeyDog
24-10-2015, 22:37
Gruzzlebeard at this point im 99.% Sure that 35% In Game FFB is the Sweet Spot for My Tweek..
You can use Either

Advanced Settings On = Wheel Less Linear

Advanced Settings Off = Wheel More Linear (Tighter Wheel Center)

Both Settings Feel Good its just Trial and Error to see what Feel you like the Most.

Bandit vw
27-10-2015, 15:44
What is your suggestion for 4wd mz setting ie, Fwd - mz30 - rwd mz 60. Cheers

gruzzlebeard
27-10-2015, 16:23
Gruzzlebeard at this point im 99.% Sure that 35% In Game FFB is the Sweet Spot for My Tweek..
You can use Either

Advanced Settings On = Wheel Less Linear

Advanced Settings Off = Wheel More Linear (Tighter Wheel Center)

Both Settings Feel Good its just Trial and Error to see what Feel you like the Most.

Thanks. will give it a try. Usually I like Advanced off more. But will try it with this combo too.

GrimeyDog
27-10-2015, 18:16
What is your suggestion for 4wd mz setting ie, Fwd - mz30 - rwd mz 60. Cheers

MZ = Wheel Centering Force. at 100 the wheel will fight to Return to center position... This is Very Car or Personal FFB taste dependent there is No Right or wrong MZ it Really depends on how hard/quickly you like your wheel to Snap back to center position.

I will say that LMP1 to GT3 feel Natural to me with 100 MZ Because the Steerining is Very Sharp and Repsonsive but a Street Car with Less Respinsive steering I set the MZ Lower until the wheel feels Natural with the Car.

Bandit vw
27-10-2015, 20:35
Thank you, I must say that your settings have changed the feeling of the game immensely for me,the feedback is something else now !!! I use a G29 and love it...great work :-)

Islandlad77
27-10-2015, 20:49
I'm using grimey's settings on my gt3 wheel. I've just lowered master and sop scale abit. Must say the feedback feels awesome now. Never before have I been able to feel the car balance or road feel like this. Thanks a million for all your effort.

GrimeyDog
27-10-2015, 21:59
Thank you, I must say that your settings have changed the feeling of the game immensely for me,the feedback is something else now !!! I use a G29 and love it...great work :-)

Thanx...I do it Because I Love Racing... Spread the word Tell a Few Friends and point them to this Thread let them Know their are New ways to Tweek Dont Be Scared to try a new way...People were losing Hope in PCars but it can Still be a Great Game.

GrimeyDog
27-10-2015, 22:23
I'm using grimey's settings on my gt3 wheel. I've just lowered master and sop scale abit. Must say the feedback feels awesome now. Never before have I been able to feel the car balance or road feel like this. Thanks a million for all your effort.

Thanx... Post your Adjusted settings in Here for other GT3 users... We Can All Learn From Each other.

2stains
28-10-2015, 10:37
Please post your settings for your gt3 wheel as it might translate to my gt2 wheel that feel lacking in feeling since the last patch, all help will be appreciated .

Islandlad77
28-10-2015, 15:56
Please post your settings for your gt3 wheel as it might translate to my gt2 wheel that feel lacking in feeling since the last patch, all help will be appreciated .

Reset your wheel then try the following settings

Tire Force 98

Relative
98
12
92

Scoop
68
18

Controller options

FFB 25
All deadzones 0

All pedal sensitivity 50

Controller mode 2 with advanced settings set to OFF

Try the Ruf GT3 with jack spades settings @ Oulton park GP (bumpy track).

Wheel FFB 100% Sho set to 0, spring set to 0,
Adjust master and sop scales to your liking.

LordDRIFT
28-10-2015, 16:22
Thanx...I do it Because I Love Racing... Spread the word Tell a Few Friends and point them to this Thread let them Know their are New ways to Tweek Dont Be Scared to try a new way...People were losing Hope in PCars but it can Still be a Great Game.

Sadly I'm at the point of no return. I once had perfect settings, but every time there is an update I have to reinvent the wheel. I've played the game twice since 3.0. and haven't even seen 5.0. FFB just felt odd the one time when I played 4.0. At least in all the previous iterations I could tell exactly what was wrong. Now I cant put my finger on it but something was just not quite right. It may not have been the ffb, it could have been the way the cars handle all together changed. But the sum of all the game's issues has left a bad taste in my mouth. The game leaves me feeling like I've just wasted my time every time I play - especially now that i'm at the longer endurance races. A bug ruining your race 2 hrs in is very demoralizing. If anyone wants to buy t300 pm me.

GrimeyDog
28-10-2015, 18:04
Sadly I'm at the point of no return. I once had perfect settings, but every time there is an update I have to reinvent the wheel. I've played the game twice since 3.0. and haven't even seen 5.0. FFB just felt odd the one time when I played 4.0. At least in all the previous iterations I could tell exactly what was wrong. Now I cant put my finger on it but something was just not quite right. It may not have been the ffb, it could have been the way the cars handle all together changed. But the sum of all the game's issues has left a bad taste in my mouth. The game leaves me feeling like I've just wasted my time every time I play - especially now that i'm at the longer endurance races. A bug ruining your race 2 hrs in is very demoralizing. If anyone wants to buy t300 pm me.

Unfortunatly when they do the updates especially when they make Changes to the Tracks or Tire Grip...its best to Delete your Whole Game profile... The Hard Drive Game save and the Cloud Game save and Re-install the Game with a Fresh patch download....Only then will your FFB Return to the Norm...I havent even Started a Career since the 4.0 update....Hang in there if you start fresh in sure you will once again enjoy PCars.

LordDRIFT
28-10-2015, 19:16
Unfortunatly when they do the updates especially when they make Changes to the Tracks or Tire Grip...its best to Delete your Whole Game profile... The Hard Drive Game save and the Cloud Game save and Re-install the Game with a Fresh patch download....Only then will your FFB Return to the Norm...I havent even Started a Career since the 4.0 update....Hang in there if you start fresh in sure you will once again enjoy PCars.

Wait wut? I have to restart my career to get the game to act right. Waste of time.

GrimeyDog
28-10-2015, 22:00
Wait wut? I have to restart my career to get the game to act right. Waste of time.

Yup...or you can try Resetting the Car to default then put back in your settings for the Track...I just deleted the career i forgot what tracks i saved set ups for so i just started fresh... PCars Feels Really good Now with the Right global settings.

Question did you reset the Global settings after the update... you do know thats how you lock the new changes in right???

LordDRIFT
28-10-2015, 23:55
Yup...or you can try Resetting the Car to default then put back in your settings for the Track...I just deleted the career i forgot what tracks i saved set ups for so i just started fresh... PCars Feels Really good Now with the Right global settings.

Question did you reset the Global settings after the update... you do know thats how you lock the new changes in right???

Haven't done a reset in while , and no I didn't know that had to be done to lock in changes. I wish the reset didnt wipe out my button assignments as well.. another bonehead oversight.

GrimeyDog
29-10-2015, 01:12
Haven't done a reset in while , and no I didn't know that had to be done to lock in changes. I wish the reset didnt wipe out my button assignments as well.. another bonehead oversight.

Try Resetting your Global Settings First then put back what ever settings you like... If FFB doesn't Return to the Norm then a Total Reset is Needed...I just do the Total Reset to be sure.

Islandlad77
29-10-2015, 08:14
Yup...or you can try Resetting the Car to default then put back in your settings for the Track...I just deleted the career i forgot what tracks i saved set ups for so i just started fresh... PCars Feels Really good Now with the Right global settings.

Question did you reset the Global settings after the update... you do know thats how you lock the new changes in right???

I'm doing a full reinstall as I speak. Can you explain what you mean above. ( global reset)
Thanks mate.

GrimeyDog
29-10-2015, 09:30
Thats when your at the Controler/Wheel Menue and you Push Green Triangle to Reset all your Global/Button Mapping Etc.

Islandlad77
29-10-2015, 09:34
Thats when your at the Controler/Wheel Menue and you Push Green Triangle to Reset all your Global/Button Mapping Etc.

As I thought. Thanks.

Islandlad77
29-10-2015, 10:10
Well after a full reinstall I can confirm that force feedback feels spot on now. I'm using jack spades 66% settings optimised for the fanatec gt3rs v2. Just did a 1.34 in the Ruf Gt3 at Oulton park. Hopefully I can stop messing about with settings and do alitmore racing now.

chickano
29-10-2015, 10:29
Oh god the thoughts of starting career all over again. I'm on the T300RS. Driving the Alpine last night and the FB was 'dead'.
There are so many perspectives on FFB now that I don't even know what to try and I've read ALOT about it including in this thread.

Currently running Spades Classic settings with minimal tweaks to default FFb settings., FB 75 TF 100 currently... Any advice on the T300RS welcome, and whether or not I should should delete my saved data and start again. Really don't want to do that as am in season 4 of career now having started in karts.

Islandlad77
29-10-2015, 10:34
Oh god the thoughts of starting career all over again. I'm on the T300RS. Driving the Alpine last night and the FB was 'dead'.
There are so many perspectives on FFB now that I don't even know what to try and I've read ALOT about it including in this thread.

Currently running Spades Classic settings with minimal tweaks to default FFb settings., FB 75 TF 100 currently... Any advice on the T300RS welcome, and whether or not I should should delete my saved data and start again. Really don't want to do that as am in season 4 of career now having started in karts.

If you mainly do career then yeah it sucks but a reinstall is highly recommended, certainly for fanatec hardware anyway. But delete all data on the console. When you re calibrate everything try setting force feedback to 35, tire force to 98 and go from there. All the updates took about 45 mins on my bband connection.

LordDRIFT
29-10-2015, 10:59
Mainly? Shit I ONLY play career. I already did a reinstall for 2.0. The thought of having to drive those godawful karts again on top of losing all my progress is sickening. :( I guess since Ive given up on the game I have nothing to lose. But what about all the other bugs and stuff the reset wont cure those.

GrimeyDog
29-10-2015, 11:36
If you mainly do career then yeah it sucks but a reinstall is highly recommended, certainly for fanatec hardware anyway. But delete all data on the console. When you re calibrate everything try setting force feedback to 35, tire force to 98 and go from there. All the updates took about 45 mins on my bband connection.

after reset try my settings on the T300...I use them on my TX and it feels like the V2 just less powerfull.

in game FFB 65.... + or - to Taste for How Strong you want your wheel... 100% Is NOT Needed Nor do i Recomend it.

Tire Force 98

Relative settings
98
12
92

Scoop
68
18

all the other settings are in the PDF on First page... All Dead Zone and Smoothing are wheel Dependent settings and you will have to set them acording to your wheel or taste.

Try the in Car settings too but you can adjust them to taste... The Relative and the scoop are Most important for Good Global/ All Around FFB Feel... The in Car settings you Have alotta room to play with them with No Clipping....

redruMKO
29-10-2015, 21:18
Grimey, I like what you've been saying about the FFB overall percentage....

How do I 'feel' what value is high enough? I tried putting it down to 4O%, and that felt, roughly, 4O% as strong as it had been on 1OO. I went up in increments of 1O, and each time it felt a little stronger. Is there some way I can skew my FFB, temporarily, that will help me 'feel' if it clips in the invisible-clip-zone?


I really see what you mean about the FFBscale part not being included in the telemetry... In fact i really wonder what that yellow line means, as the forces i feel seem to differ hugely from that line.

[I'm on a G29 btw.]

GrimeyDog
30-10-2015, 00:33
Grimey, I like what you've been saying about the FFB overall percentage....

How do I 'feel' what value is high enough? I tried putting it down to 4O%, and that felt, roughly, 4O% as strong as it had been on 1OO. I went up in increments of 1O, and each time it felt a little stronger. Is there some way I can skew my FFB, temporarily, that will help me 'feel' if it clips in the invisible-clip-zone?


I really see what you mean about the FFBscale part not being included in the telemetry... In fact i really wonder what that yellow line means, as the forces i feel seem to differ hugely from that line.

[I'm on a G29 btw.]

I test FFB on Watkins Glen GP using the Gt3 Ruff its the Bumpyest Car in GT3 and Watkins Glen GP Has a Nice Bit of Fast Bumpy Sections plus Some Really Harsh Curbs to Hit to Test the FFB.... Basicly Set the FFB to a Moderate Level Test it making Sure your hitting Bumps and Curbs... Turn FFB up 10 at a Time until you start Losing the Subtle Road Feel... When you Notice subtle Road feel Loss thats the Beginning of Too Much FFB input to the wheel... at the Wheel Clipping will Not always be the wheel going Dead or Unresponsive... its also the point at which you start Losing Subtle Feel in the FFB... Kind of like Bass with No Mids or Highs its just Noise with No Clarity... You Beed the Mids and Highs to Clarify the Bass.... Same For FFB you Need that Subtle FFB to Bring out and Clarify the Stronger FFB also.... Its all about Balance.

-Brick_Top-
30-10-2015, 23:01
What grimey says goes! This man knows his ffb

GrimeyDog
01-11-2015, 01:33
Ive updated the PDF on the first page with the updated Global settings also.


When using this tweek take Note that the MZ 100 feels best on Race cars because it keeps the steering sharp and responsive... When using street cars i reduce the MZ to 60 because street car steering is not as sharp as a race car... If the steering is too snappy and sharp then reduce MZ until the feel is to your liking

McKiernan
01-11-2015, 14:56
Ive updated the PDF on the first page with the updated Global settings also.

Thank you for this

JesterD44y
01-11-2015, 19:58
After reading most of this thread I felt I had to do some testing myself. What I came down to is that the Master Scale defines the amount of detail in the FFB and that is just that, a master scale. Put the Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz in to half and double the Master seems to give the same result. No recording just laps and trying to remember the general feeling and graph. The global FFB from my understanding determines where on an Y axis the forces are taking place when it comes to the wheels output.

So how about starting with finding out what detail you want and then set the global to where to most heavy forces during driving (high speed crashing not counted) are at the maximum strength you want your wheel to feed you?

Disclaimer, not half as experienced as most here so might have gotten it all wrong...

GrimeyDog
01-11-2015, 21:43
Xbox1 TX 458 Should also work on T300 PS4


When using this tweek take Note that the MZ 100 feels best on Race cars because it keeps the steering sharp and responsive... When using street cars i reduce the MZ to 60 because street car steering is not as sharp as a race car... If the steering is too snappy and sharp then reduce MZ until the feel is to your liking

vahagn_hayk
02-11-2015, 17:02
just wanted to share experience and what i have seen so far, reading tons and tons of material on various pages, forums and with fellow racers.

1) Thank you GrimeyDog, for the settings you have come up with, time you put in, efforts and nerve wrecking tweaking, wheel works and feels great for me! thank you!
2) i do think JS is not 100% applicable to PS4, the GrimeyDog per vehicle FFB settings feel a lot more realistic and natural than the JS settings. (comparing RL feel vehicle, driving of Audi R8 V10 on track and in game! GrimeyDog's setup feels closest to the RL feeling!)
3) have been tweaking myself since the release of this game, and have never gotten the wheel and pedals to feel as good as with GrimeyDog's setup.

thank you again @GrimeyDog!

Kummeli
02-11-2015, 20:52
The car spindle and sop master scales go to 200. Should we put them in 100 or 200 (100% as stated by you on the PDF) ?
Thanks for the time and effort GrimeyDog!

GrimeyDog
05-11-2015, 00:55
The car spindle and sop master scales go to 200. Should we put them in 100 or 200 (100% as stated by you on the PDF) ?
Thanks for the time and effort GrimeyDog!

100% only. If your using the T300 set your FFB 65 and test then try 75 then test again... 100% in game FFB is Not Needed.

GrimeyDog
05-11-2015, 01:00
https://youtu.be/rtjGomKTwZI

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjGomKTwZI)

The Video sez it all... Treat the in Game Master FFB like a volume control...it Has Nothing to do with Loss or gain of Dynamic FFB...How ever as shown in the other video Reducing Steering Gain will reduce the Dynamic range of the FFB... The Myth Has Now been Dispelled.




(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjGomKTwZI)

GrimeyDog
05-11-2015, 01:02
https://youtu.be/s_hnGt3M34g

The Video sez it all....Reducing Steering Gain will reduce the Dynamic range of the FFB.
You do Not Lose dynamic FFB Range if you run less than 100% in game FFB...The Myth Has Now been Dispelled.

2stains
05-11-2015, 02:09
Hey Grimey i think you've done alot of good work here for all on ffb but you should practice your racing skills now . ffb is sorted for now . I raced you the other day and it's clear you haven't done enough racing . Start having fun with the game and forget about ffb for a while . You can only get it to feel so good ,it's never going to feel perfectly like a proper race car but you've got it feeling good . Thanks for your help.

poirqc
05-11-2015, 05:46
Hey Grimey i think you've done alot of good work here for all on ffb but you should practice your racing skills now . ffb is sorted for now . I raced you the other day and it's clear you haven't done enough racing . Start having fun with the game and forget about ffb for a while . You can only get it to feel so good ,it's never going to feel perfectly like a proper race car but you've got it feeling good . Thanks for your help.

2stains do have a point.

I was getting fed up at some point with the sheet / FCM tests.

It's refreshing to put the tests aside when you did lots of them. You get to know combo's that are really fun. It'll even help you to do further test down the road because you'll know the tracks better!

Cheers.

GrimeyDog
05-11-2015, 08:18
Hey Grimey i think you've done alot of good work here for all on ffb but you should practice your racing skills now . ffb is sorted for now . I raced you the other day and it's clear you haven't done enough racing . Start having fun with the game and forget about ffb for a while . You can only get it to feel so good ,it's never going to feel perfectly like a proper race car but you've got it feeling good . Thanks for your help.



LOL... What Car and Track??? I remember Gettin bashed around in a race and just gave up... like forget it...i. Not tbe Quickest but im Pretty Quick... Send me a friend invite... what tag were you under???

2stains
05-11-2015, 09:50
BigDaddy777015 at the Glen short you were in the Ruf GT3 and L Seca yeah you took me out passing me twice . I try to pass poeple not push them , if i cant pass i dont pass .

GrimeyDog
05-11-2015, 10:30
BigDaddy777015 at the Glen short you were in the Ruf GT3 and L Seca yeah you took me out passing me twice . I try to pass poeple not push them , if i cant pass i dont pass .

Im not a Take out Dude... I Hate getting Smashed around....Was that you Driving the BMW??? i Dunno some Body in a Red BMW pushed me inbthe Grass 2 times...then was Blocking Me From Passing... Uuugh I dont Block People when their Faster i let them go if they can Pass...i Dunno but if its the Races im Talking about i got Podium in both... I think 1st on Watkins Short.... I dont Remember....i think i took you on the inside line on Watkins Glen Clean But i got put in the wall from Behind..... Send me a Friend invite... I willnGive you the Bizzness... LOL

2stains
05-11-2015, 10:54
Im Mclaren in gt3

GrimeyDog
13-11-2015, 10:36
Ok Im Back... LOL

Went from 40in Flat to 48 in Curved... Nice!!!

vahagn_hayk
13-11-2015, 18:34
how is the curved one? let us know :) more details please. brand and etc/ details!

GrimeyDog
14-11-2015, 17:27
how is the curved one? let us know :) more details please. brand and etc/ details!

its a 48in Samsung UHD TV.... i was using a 40in Samsung HD 1080p which was Great but i've been looking at the Curved UHD Tv's for a While and with the whole month being Black Friday sales its a Freat time to buy!!!

The Curve is Great it provides extra immersion....the Curve allows me to use a Bigger TV and Not have to Change my Seating Distance or Look Left & Right to see Edge to Edge of the TV Screen... Driving actually feels Easier... My Lap Times are Dropping!!! its a Great upgrade... I had bought a 40in curved Samsung Tv it just seemed too Small because of the Curve its 1/2 in Shorter from L to R than the Regular 40in but seems Much Smaller than that... i Took it back the Next day for the Larger 48in and its Perfect.

Mr.60trim
15-11-2015, 02:07
https://youtu.be/s_hnGt3M34g

The Video sez it all....Reducing Steering Gain will reduce the Dynamic range of the FFB.
You do Not Lose dynamic FFB Range if you run less than 100% in game FFB...The Myth Has Now been Dispelled.
Grimey, thanks for exploring this. You really cleared things up for the rest of us console guys. Much appreciated man!

GrimeyDog
16-11-2015, 16:09
I been Taking a FFB Tweeker Break and will be back to posting in a day or so...Been Upgrading the Man Kave.

GrimeyDog
16-11-2015, 16:17
https://youtu.be/SuMUH7oBwcA


Been just Reading Random FFB threads including the JS thread... imo the Main Source of all the FFB confusion...its Not that Complicated as its being made out to be... that guy just has No Clue of what he is doing.... SMH... But Mean while in My Man Kave Beautiful Detailed FFB and Check the Wheel to Car Movements 1 to 1 ratio and the Car is stock/untuned Suspension... But anyway back to Racing.

Sankyo
17-11-2015, 09:58
Been just Reading Random FFB threads including the JS thread... imo the Main Source of all the FFB confusion...its Not that Complicated as its being made out to be... that guy just has No Clue of what he is doing....
Please stop the personal fights and insults, OK? If you have a problem with someone, sort it through PM.

FFB is highly personal. Share your FFB settings, and if they work for people then great but for others they won't work. Same for other people who share FFB set-ups, no sense in arguing.

C6ckneyGeezer
18-11-2015, 17:14
https://youtu.be/s_hnGt3M34g

The Video sez it all....Reducing Steering Gain will reduce the Dynamic range of the FFB.
You do Not Lose dynamic FFB Range if you run less than 100% in game FFB...The Myth Has Now been Dispelled.

This explains alot. Good video man!

Quick question though, does this apply on PC also?

GrimeyDog
18-11-2015, 22:51
This explains alot. Good video man!

Quick question though, does this apply on PC also?

For PC i'm Not 100% sure... don't Quote me but IMO it should work the same.
I will be back on posting and making new videos to explain some other stuff by this weekend... i'm upgrading the man kave ATM... 48in Curved Samsung TV, Surrond Sound Etc.... i will be able to answer the PC Question shortly i'm ordering a New PC aslo!!! WooooHoooo...LOL

Mr.60trim
19-11-2015, 08:31
So after hours of testing GrimeyDog's FFB settings on a Ruf GT3, (Thrustmaster T300 / PS4), I'm extremely pleased with the results. I believe the logic behind his theory makes complete sense, and the results show. I spent damn near 4-4.5hrs straight getting a true feel for this car with this setup on multiple tracks, my fan came on only 3 times. Overheating clearly wasn't an issue. Everything on the road that I expected to feel felt realistic. FFB telemetry readout showed full range while only running 45 in-game FFB. I seriously think that either there are major discrepancies between PC, PS4, and Xbox1 in terms of actual FFB output, or people are just not comprehending the logic here, thus leading towards a lot of confusion on this subject matter.

Props to GrimeyDog! Despite all the ongoing noise of whose tweaks are better etc etc ...I think I found a solid match for me. Grimey, keep doing what you're doing man! Good work!

lancashirelad
19-11-2015, 12:13
Can you give link to those settings please I can't find them.

GrimeyDog
19-11-2015, 14:24
Can you give link to those settings please I can't find them.

First Page 1st post PDF is attatched.... what wheel are you using?

lancashirelad
19-11-2015, 23:40
First Page 1st post PDF is attatched.... what wheel are you using?

I'm using T300 rs on PS4

Fre.Mo
20-11-2015, 08:29
For PC i'm Not 100% sure... don't Quote me but IMO it should work the same.
I will be back on posting and making new videos to explain some other stuff by this weekend... i'm upgrading the man kave ATM... 48in Curved Samsung TV, Surrond Sound Etc.... i will be able to answer the PC Question shortly i'm ordering a New PC aslo!!! WooooHoooo...LOL

you're leaving us to join Jack Spade's side :p

GrimeyDog
20-11-2015, 10:11
I'm using T300 rs on PS4

Use the V2 Tweek and Set your in Game Master FFB according to How Strong you want your wheel to be... Try 65 to start with.

The In Car Masters can be + or - axcording to how strong you want the FFB to Feel

GrimeyDog
20-11-2015, 10:13
you're leaving us to join Jack Spade's side :p

Never will I Leave Console and go to the Dark Side...Never!!!

GrimeyDog
20-11-2015, 11:24
I've been doing More Test and im Pretty Sure that the in Car Master FFB Sliders are Passive :yes: and are NOT Multipliers for the Settings within them as some seem to think :no:

All the Multiplication and Reduction of Forces is Done with the Global Settings. TF, Relative, Scoop and Last in Chain Steering Gain to get the Final Power output of FFB Forces.

The Per wheel Movement and Dead Zone Removal/Fall off settings are Wheel/ Personal Taste Dependent settings. IMO CSW V2, T300,TX458 Need No Adjustment in this area because the wheels are Very Accurate... Also i set My DOR to Auto/900 and Let the Game Adjust that per Car.


IMO

Master Scale 100, Fy 35 = 35% Clean Pass through:yes:
same for Fx, Fz, Mz

Master Scale 35, Fy 120 = 35% Clean Pass through...The rest Compressed and Distorted:no:

Therefore the in Car Masters should be Treated as a Volume Control to Set the Level of How Strong you want the FFB Effects to be.

The Last link in the Chain would be to make the Final adjustment to the In Game Master FFB to Set the Final at the Wheel Strength you want.

The FFB is there ONLY to Give information about Road Surface and How the Car is Reacting/Handling Changes ingthe Road Surface Loss of Grip, Weight Tranfer, Curb Bump Feel etc. FFB Will Not Change a Cars Handling...Ex: a Sloppy Handling Car will Handle Slopy but can be Better Controled because you can Feel what you Need to Do to Compensate because the Car does Not want to turn or Slides Slopy...Everything Regarding a cars Handling thats what the Suspension Tuning is for. I find that i can Run with the Best of them and i Run Stock untuned Suspension with every Car... Nope i've Done No Car Tweeking as of yet... The Stock Suspension is Good i Haven't felt the Need Tweek the Car yet...as long as i Have Good FFB No Need to Tweek the cars to be Fast.

With My Tweek I use the same In Car FFB in 99.5% of the Cars Formula A and the FWD cars are the exception to the Rule...With Formula A i Drive them Stock and FWD cars Ex: Cluo Cup i add Double the Fy.

There Is No Need to Have 1 Bazillion Tweeks per Car as Some Tweekers Have :no: :confused: ...Simple Thats why SMS Only Put 1 Set up Save Per Track :yes: but to each their own :rolleyes: 1 set up per Track is Good if your FFB is Right :cool:

Im going to post my Caterham Vs LMP1 video this weekend... Very interesting... LOL.

"MZ" setting is wheel Centering Force...It keeps the Steering Sharp and Snappy.
The "MZ" setting is the only Setting that i change and That only Changes per Car Class... anything under/Lower than GT3 the MZ should be reduced to Match the Car.
EX: LMP1 Cars Have Sharp Responsive steering so i like MZ 100
GT4 and Lower are Modified Street Cars and the Steering is Not as Sharp or Responsive so you Reduce MZ until the Steering Feels Natural for the Car.

The FFB is Not as Complicated as its Being Made out to be... IMO
Im Never Going to the other side them guys Dont want Me on their team cause they too Smart for me over there.... LOL

GrimeyDog
20-11-2015, 13:12
I'm using T300 rs on PS4

Use the V2 settings i have to update the T300/TX458 PDF to New Global Settings. you just have to find your In Game Master FFB that you like for yhe Final at the wheel FFB Strength.

bmanic
20-11-2015, 13:53
We'll you are entitled to your "feelings" on how you think the FFB works. I could tell you just how wrong you are but you never listen.. ever wondered where we got all the information from? No other than AJ, the programmer who created the system. Some of us have been tweaking the FFB stuff since it was first introduced (it has come in many different forms) back in 2013 (if my memory serves me right).

.. but yeah, whatever. :)

RomKnight
20-11-2015, 14:07
The Per wheel Movement and Dead Zone Removal/Fall off settings are Wheel/ Personal Taste Dependent settings. IMO CSW V2, T300,TX458 Need No Adjustment in this area because the wheels are Very Accurate... Also i set My DOR to Auto/900 and Let the Game Adjust that per Car.[/B]

The FFB is Not as Complicated as its Being Made out to be... IMO

1- Disagree. DRI=3 DOES have a bit of acceleration and =2 already has drag and to me ... well... I don't like any of the options. Also, it is a Fanatec implemented stuff and why do I have that when I can have a clean FFB signal directly from the game? So I do use PWM settings but again, each have their taste and feel.

2- couldn't agree more on that. It is not that hard (at least with a cswv2 :) )

Disclaimer: I don't use your or others settings but I'll leave the option of using PWM for CSWv2 users. I'm far from being an expert or heavy tester but I know what I want to feel and the ffb parameters (the ones that matter to me) are quite clear hence my agree on 2-

GrimeyDog
20-11-2015, 21:10
We'll you are entitled to your "feelings" on how you think the FFB works. I could tell you just how wrong you are but you never listen.. ever wondered where we got all the information from? No other than AJ, the programmer who created the system. Some of us have been tweaking the FFB stuff since it was first introduced (it has come in many different forms) back in 2013 (if my memory serves me right).

.. but yeah, whatever. :)

All i know is my wheel feel Great as it is...to me its actually all the same...I use high masters and low in car FFB settings that's what works and feels best for me...You and others use Low masters and high in car settings...

My wheel is very Strong and has Great Road deatail and Weight transfer feel the way i like it to feel and Runs Cool even after hours of use.

IMO sooo far seems that every 1 is just Groping around Blind to find their way... Yes even the People who claim to know or have insider info are still searching for the final FFB solution... There is no one blue print that i've seen or heard about that works for all....if so it would have been put into effect or laid out as a Tweeker Road map long ago IMO

IMO you dont Need more than 1 FFB set up... FFB is just there to tell what the Road is like and how the car is handling anything else is what suspension tweeking is for... Seems Odd that SMS forgot to add the option to save more than 1 FFB set up per car??? Maybe that's because you only Need 1 good set up???

I just don't think that the in car masters are multipliers... That's just my opinion but in the absence of a Official SMS Guide i guess anything can be what ever any 1 wants it to be...LOL:p as long as every one is happy with the FFB feel they have Everything is well.... I am Very satisfied with my FFB i haven't Tweeked in Weeks....I'm Ready to take it to the Track and let the Lap times do the talking:cool:

But as far as i see its all the same i use 100% on my in car masters and low settings within the Masters (I like strong FFB and the v2 can take it)....you use low settings on your masters and High in car settings whats the Big difference???

Without a official SMS Blue Print on How to set up FFB there is No Right There is No Wrong There is Only Opinion.

lancashirelad
21-11-2015, 01:24
We'll you are entitled to your "feelings" on how you think the FFB works. I could tell you just how wrong you are but you never listen.. ever wondered where we got all the information from? No other than AJ, the programmer who created the system. Some of us have been tweaking the FFB stuff since it was first introduced (it has come in many different forms) back in 2013 (if my memory serves me right).

.. but yeah, whatever. :)

A quick question from someone who has followed the force feedback saga from getting the game on release for ps4. You said "My wheel settings were NOT developed with the Jack Spade tweakers in mind. I do not use his files nor do I recommend them due to the heavy use of SoP which drastically minimizes important details in the FFB. I can not stress how important this is.. I HIGHLY recommend removing any SoP forces and to stick with the basic Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz and Arm Angle."

Why are sop settings in the options if this is true? Also if you have worked closely with the guy who programmed the ff do you know why someone hasn't come forward and explained the ff options to us mortals? Not having a go just genuine questions. I'm enjoying the game most of the time and bought a wheel (t300rs)and seat ( playseat challenge) just for this game so not a casual gamer.

GrimeyDog
21-11-2015, 02:08
https://youtu.be/vhj8r2VkeaI

Caterham to LMP1 Matek to Ariel Atom 1 FFB set up... All Cars Feel Great and Still Remain with their own Unique Road Feel using 1 FFB Tweek.

Who Needs a bazillion FFB Tweeks for 1 car:confused: Not me im too Lazy for that:no: :rolleyes:

rams1de
21-11-2015, 08:55
A quick question from someone who has followed the force feedback saga from getting the game on release for ps4. You said "My wheel settings were NOT developed with the Jack Spade tweakers in mind. I do not use his files nor do I recommend them due to the heavy use of SoP which drastically minimizes important details in the FFB. I can not stress how important this is.. I HIGHLY recommend removing any SoP forces and to stick with the basic Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz and Arm Angle."

Why are sop settings in the options if this is true? Also if you have worked closely with the guy who programmed the ff do you know why someone hasn't come forward and explained the ff options to us mortals? Not having a go just genuine questions. I'm enjoying the game most of the time and bought a wheel (t300rs)and seat ( playseat challenge) just for this game so not a casual gamer.

It's a recommendation mate, not a rule.

He feels he gets more information from front tyres this way and as a result is able to go faster. SoP is an attempt to improve immersion by giving an indication of what the rears are doing. It's use is optional, although Jack Spades believes it is required sometimes to avoid "phase cancellation", which results in reduction/loss of elements of FFB.

It's important to note, they have different wheels which provide different fidelity so take an approach that works for both their wheel and the FFB sensation they prefer.

There is a document in the stickies, it's been there from very early after realease, which explains what the options do along with an example of how the author set up his own wheel. The problem with it though, it's not written for FFB noobs like me and thousands of others as it's overly technical. Mind, a suspension tuning noob would probably say the same thing about dampers, bumps stops, spring rates et al.

GrimeyDog
21-11-2015, 12:18
A quick question from someone who has followed the force feedback saga from getting the game on release for ps4. You said "My wheel settings were NOT developed with the Jack Spade tweakers in mind. I do not use his files nor do I recommend them due to the heavy use of SoP which drastically minimizes important details in the FFB. I can not stress how important this is.. I HIGHLY recommend removing any SoP forces and to stick with the basic Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz and Arm Angle."

Why are sop settings in the options if this is true? Also if you have worked closely with the guy who programmed the ff do you know why someone hasn't come forward and explained the ff options to us mortals? Not having a go just genuine questions. I'm enjoying the game most of the time and bought a wheel (t300rs)and seat ( playseat challenge) just for this game so not a casual gamer.

For Me the SoP is Very important if you have it set Right... It will Clearly Give you Early warning about the Track, Car to Help avoid spinning the Car out. I think its a Great Feature... if you Know what your Feeling For it lets you Know when you can Push the Car Harder, You Need to Back off Throttle, Readjust Steering angle or just Throttle Steer your way through.

To get the Full Benefit of the SoP Feel you Should Drive with all Assist Off... TCS and other assist take away from the SoP because they Try to stop you from Spinning the Car which Ruins SoP Feel Totally... and Kills your Driving Too You Never Learn to Correct your Driving Mistakes and Never Get a Good Sense of Speed and weight Transfer Feel for diving the car at the Edge of Grip.

I bet Most of the People that dont use SoP are Driving with Assist on...Doesnt Have to be Full assist either ... IMO.... Drive the Car Naked No Assist!!!.Then Test SoP Feels Great.

vahagn_hayk
21-11-2015, 14:19
does anyone know what the ABS setting on the CSW V2 does?

lancashirelad
21-11-2015, 14:40
Thanks for both your answers, very informative. I drive with assists real which with the cars I mostly drive means off. I also sometimes turn off assists even if they are allowed as I feel it can make you faster in certain cars.

smartin13
21-11-2015, 15:33
does anyone know what the ABS setting on the CSW V2 does?
brake vibrations

GrimeyDog
30-11-2015, 10:50
Man Kave update Complete!!! Im Back... Aaah ha ha haaa!!!

Haiden
30-11-2015, 16:53
A quick question from someone who has followed the force feedback saga from getting the game on release for ps4. You said "My wheel settings were NOT developed with the Jack Spade tweakers in mind. I do not use his files nor do I recommend them due to the heavy use of SoP which drastically minimizes important details in the FFB. I can not stress how important this is.. I HIGHLY recommend removing any SoP forces and to stick with the basic Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz and Arm Angle."

Why are sop settings in the options if this is true? Also if you have worked closely with the guy who programmed the ff do you know why someone hasn't come forward and explained the ff options to us mortals? Not having a go just genuine questions. I'm enjoying the game most of the time and bought a wheel (t300rs)and seat ( playseat challenge) just for this game so not a casual gamer.

I mostly race open wheel and don't use SoP, because the cars have a very low center of gravity and lots of grip, both mechanical and aero. In open wheel racing, my laps times are always better without SoP. Most open wheelers also aren't as sensitive to weight transfer under acceleration and braking as some of the other heavier classes, like GT and Road cars--or at least don't seem to be for my driving style. For that reason, the SoP scales don't add much value for me in those classes. I do use SoP for heavier cars with a higher center of gravity, because feeling that sway, helps me modulate the throttle and brake to keep weight on the back tires and avoid oversteer.

But, to be honest, I think it's just about preference. If you've been playing sims for a while, you might not want to retrain your brain to recognize and use the SoP forces. In fact, for long time sim racers, it's possible that the SoP forces will just confuse you, since they work in the same spectrum as the Fy lateral forces. The best thing to do is, take your favorite car out on a track you know extremely well, and compare your laps times with both setting--classic FFB and the SoP Lateral mix. Go with whatever gives you the most control and makes you faster. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. In RL, drivers tune their cars to their personal preference/style. Sim racing is no different. :)

GrimeyDog
04-12-2015, 10:37
https://youtu.be/aMXSNDwaWLg

Not my Video but it has Good info and worth watching.

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 03:33
Un-tuned car suspension not even aero/down force was added!!! straight Good FFB Tweek on the wheel!!!

Good FFB tweek = consistent and fast laps... and this was online race!!! I've been done Tweeking for a few Months its all about Learning the tacks and lap times....also My lap times are very consistent which is most important i can stay within .500 when i'm in the zone.

That's My First 123:xxx at Laguna Seca!!! i'm Happy about that... No Better feeling than being able to see the proof that Long Hours of FFB Tweek work and Testing was time well spent:yes:

Now i will make a few car suspension Tweeks:cool:

2stains
06-12-2015, 06:20
Somebody hand him a trumpet.
LOL �� . Love you G.Dog.

Kain NL
06-12-2015, 12:36
We'll you are entitled to your "feelings" on how you think the FFB works. I could tell you just how wrong you are but you never listen.. ever wondered where we got all the information from? No other than AJ, the programmer who created the system. Some of us have been tweaking the FFB stuff since it was first introduced (it has come in many different forms) back in 2013 (if my memory serves me right).

.. but yeah, whatever. :)

Maybe it's time that pc guys, wmd members and game devs start realising that ffb on pc differs very much from the X1 and also differs separately to PS4...and try to keep it to their own platform....don't have a PS4 or X1...you don't experience the things we feel !!! I don't go bothering posting my console experiences in pc topics because I don't own a pc.
Like many times said everywhere....SMS could do a better job explaining what slider does what...there's enough room for it on the right side of the screen to inform us about it separately !!! Maybe if that info was given, we wouldn't have been tweaking up till today to get the ffb to our own personal feel.

And my own personal opinion is....I can't imagine that you'll have to tweak the ffb in a way that every car feels about the same !!! Every car has it's own 'personality' and with adjusting every slider separately you'll just kill that 'personality' to one.

verri0129
06-12-2015, 13:32
Hi GrimeyDog

Is it possible to share us the FFB settings for g29 users on PS4? I've compared your global settings with JS settings, your global settings gives me more feel on what the car is doing, but when I was driving kart 125, the wheel feels weird, keeps clanking all the time when I was turning the wheel back to center(driving in very low speed like 40km/h still the same). It's hard to describe with words. So I wonder maybe the settings for kart 125 should be different a little bit? Also how about Formula A settings? (You mentioned that Formula A should have its own FFB settings) I set the fx at 2, fy at 30, fz at 75, mz at 100 for kart 125.
BTW, how do you define a sports car from a race car? for example, does Ginetta G40 Junior considered race car?

Gamer82678
06-12-2015, 13:53
Trying to share a FFB Linearity graph calculation utilizing 30% Force Feedback Strength.
DRF - Deadzone Removal Falloff utilized in game is 0.029
This is the result of utilizing poircq's Google Sheets FFB Calculator and Skoader's Force Curve Modifier app.
I feel finding the best linear FFB strength percentage(s) response(s) for wheel to be a vital nucleus for some variable yet accurate approaches to FFB system tweaking. Possibilities ! :cool:
I also feel every wheels intricate response internals to have it's own individual unique shape response identity.
Something like a fingerprint or snow flake none exactly the same. :rolleyes:
Will share rest of system FFB later on.
Shared YouTube broadcast of World Endurance Championship - Round 2/6 - Practice 1 & 2, Qualifying and Race.
Telemetry HUD on primarily.
PlayStation ID: Gamer82678
Thrustmaster T300 RS
FFB sweeter than bear meat ! :cool:
Happy Holidays ! :cool:

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 15:37
Hi GrimeyDog

Is it possible to share us the FFB settings for g29 users on PS4? I've compared your global settings with JS settings, your global settings gives me more feel on what the car is doing, but when I was driving kart 125, the wheel feels weird, keeps clanking all the time when I was turning the wheel back to center(driving in very low speed like 40km/h still the same). It's hard to describe with words. So I wonder maybe the settings for kart 125 should be different a little bit? Also how about Formula A settings? (You mentioned that Formula A should have its own FFB settings) I set the fx at 2, fy at 30, fz at 75, mz at 100 for kart 125.
BTW, how do you define a sports car from a race car? for example, does Ginetta G40 Junior considered race car?


The "MZ" setting i Turn down for car classes Lower than GT3... MZ= Wheel centering force...Race cars have sharp Snappy steering so i keep "MZ" 100 for them it gives more More info/feel for what the car is doing at center of the wheel... as you get to R4 Class they are more like Street cars that are beefed up & Tuned for racing... Lower the "MZ" until the car Steering feels natural to you. The "MZ" is the only setting that i find i Need to Tweek for the lower car classes.

Also i use a Fanatec V2 you can use My Tweek the way it is with your wheel but if you Need to make the Overall FFB Effects weaker you just simply turn down the in car master Scale Sliders until you get to a comfortable level of FFB Strength that fits your taste.

i just tuned the 125 cart and i Put the "MZ" down to 40 feels Great there for me....Keep turning the "MZ" down until the kart feels good to you. "MZ" was the only setting i moved.

Edit made a shot Kart Video that shows the settings at end of Video... didnt want to bore you with Tire warm up laps...LOL

https://youtu.be/-3KCWeM6z2s

Vilonosec
06-12-2015, 16:17
I use nearly same setup as you do (fanatec v2 and so on) and i got a few questions:
1. you say you use same setup for all cars but still you change Fx Fy Fz Mz in pdf attached to first post, is that right?
2. I can't get understeer feel on any setup i use (under heavy braking or if you steer too much in a corner wheel should go really light, but it doesn't). I tried tuning Mz and so on with no result at all. Tried Spada's setups and same - no result at all. Is there a way to work aroung it?

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 16:44
I use nearly same setup as you do (fanatec v2 and so on) and i got a few questions:
1. you say you use same setup for all cars but still you change Fx Fy Fz Mz in pdf attached to first post, is that right?
2. I can't get understeer feel on any setup i use (under heavy braking or if you steer too much in a corner wheel should go really light, but it doesn't). I tried tuning Mz and so on with no result at all. Tried Spada's setups and same - no result at all. Is there a way to work aroung it?

Have you Tried my Tweek settings yet??? Keep in mind it should be tested on a stock un-tuned car first then if Needed Tune and Tweek the car if Needed... What car and track are you driving???

The settings in the PDF are the settings i use on every car... Note I only Change the "MZ" setting to match the car if needed.

Vilonosec
06-12-2015, 17:17
Have you Tried my Tweek settings yet??? Keep in mind it should be tested on a stock un-tuned car first then if Needed Tune and Tweek the car if Needed... What car and track are you driving???

The settings in the PDF are the settings i use on every car... Note I only Change the "MZ" setting to match the car if needed.
Yes i used tweek settings from pdf in first message from this post...
I use in on stock cars. Different cars - mustang gt, mclaren 12c, focus rs on laguna seca/brands hatch.
In pdf i see this:
https://i.gyazo.com/828fbfe3bdcf2bf5e10bf91b23eb4542.png
and also sop settings changed... Should i change these settings for every car?

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 17:49
Yes You should use the SOP settings also they are Very Subtle and Give you Feel about what the Rear of the Car is Doing... The "MZ" is the only setting i adjust when cars are Lower than GT3 to make the Steering Feel Natural to the Car...Ex Cars with alot of Body Roll/Flex will Need Lower "MZ" than Race Cars with Very Little Body Roll/Flex... Keep Reducing the "MZ" and Test Drive you will Know when you Hit your MZ Sweet Spot it will feel like Majic/Natural.

Also For Console you Must find your wheels in Game Master FFB Sweet Spot to avoid Over Driving the wheel which causes at the wheel Clipping and Loss of FFB Feel.... If your using a V2 i Recommend 35.

Vilonosec
06-12-2015, 17:55
Well mostly i'm happy with your settings, except for understeer feel, i can't get it no matter what settings i change.
Maybe it's a game problem, not the first sim to lack understeer ffb.

bmanic
06-12-2015, 18:16
Mz is actually the most important FFB setting in the car setup menu (EDIT: In my opinion). I would never ever turn that one down. It's the "twisting" force of the tire and thus is the main source for feeling the correct slip angle of the tire. This means that on basic street tires like the Masculin Allweather tire you'll actually want to bump up the Mz in relation to Fy to properly feel tire slip angle.

If you dial down Mz you basically make it a lot harder to feel understeer and other nuances.

The basic tweak that I recommend is always to turn down Fy (except in some special "buggy" cases like the kart or some of the Formula series tires) and make sure Mz is your main source of "information" from the tire.

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 18:45
Mz is actually the most important FFB setting in the car setup menu (EDIT: In my opinion). I would never ever turn that one down. It's the "twisting" force of the tire and thus is the main source for feeling the correct slip angle of the tire. This means that on basic street tires like the Masculin Allweather tire you'll actually want to bump up the Mz in relation to Fy to properly feel tire slip angle.

If you dial down Mz you basically make it a lot harder to feel understeer and other nuances.

The basic tweak that I recommend is always to turn down Fy (except in some special "buggy" cases like the kart or some of the Formula series tires) and make sure Mz is your main source of "information" from the tire.

If I'm Correct you don't use SOP in your settings... When Not using SOP you Need High "MZ" all the Time because its the Main Source of Wheel Center Feeling... But when Using SOP the "MZ" Needs to be set According to How Much Body Roll/Flex the Car Has to Prevent Over Steering according to weight transfer feel.

check these 2 videos and see just how easy it was to Throttle and counter steer to get outta what should have been a Lap wrecking Drift... Never even touched the brakes to get outta the slide it was all Throttle feathering with counter steer action.

You can skip to 45 secs into the video slide is at 50sec mark.
Out side view so you can see the slide
https://youtu.be/80HxWBakDNs

Inside View you can see the counter steer action at the wheel to get the car straight again.
https://youtu.be/CJyAKXDzvAE

I could not have caught that slide without Good SOP feel...these videos were from my first tweek settings and are old... but the Basics of my Tweek is the same but i have come up with better Global settings now:yes:

rams1de
06-12-2015, 19:11
Consoles used to suffer badly from the centre spring effect. The fix in one of the patches (2 iirc) improved it significantly but in my opinion the effect was lessened as opposed to eradicated.

I think there's a good chance it is still exaggerating self alignment as it did pre-patch and may be why some console users prefer lower Mz settings.

I never found a relationship between Mz and SoP when I was experimenting. That's not to say there isn't one, just I couldn't feel it.

GrimeyDog
06-12-2015, 19:53
take a look at this diagram...This is why i cant figure out why some set the Fx setting sooo high. ...Fx represents the front to back forces No one drives with the very tip or rear of their car... This setting set too high takes away more feel than it gives. example of these forces would be Diving very fast over a hill when you hit the crest of the Hill your steering wheel will feel light as your front tires try to leave the ground. try this setting really High on the up Hill section of Laguna Seca and see how it feels then turn it Down Very low and check the feel again

Fx,Fy,Fz is just a 3D picture model of the car... you have to know this in order to know what feeling the setting your Tweeking will affect.
Fx = front to back
Fy = Left to Right side load feel
Fz = Vertical force/ Up and down or curb and Bump feel.

morpwr
07-12-2015, 17:39
Consoles used to suffer badly from the centre spring effect. The fix in one of the patches (2 iirc) improved it significantly but in my opinion the effect was lessened as opposed to eradicated.

I think there's a good chance it is still exaggerating self alignment as it did pre-patch and may be why some console users prefer lower Mz settings.

I never found a relationship between Mz and SoP when I was experimenting. That's not to say there isn't one, just I couldn't feel it.

There definitely is.Try using jacks sop files and just remove the rear your wheel will be lighter.

rams1de
07-12-2015, 22:24
There definitely is.Try using jacks sop files and just remove the rear your wheel will be lighter.

Yes the wheel feels lighter if you remove SoP and don't add any more force. I don't think it's related to Mz though as you can clearly feel a reduction in vibration from kerbs and rough road surfaces. There's also a lack of weight in high load corners. Those two scenarios relate more to Fy and Fz than Mz.

It's also in line with the game description which says SoP is a force derived from the rear tyres. Mz is coming from the front tyres.

RomKnight
07-12-2015, 23:01
I stopped using SoP. At first seems useful but it is not. There's an unnatural change in weight when cornering using lateral and an unbalanced feel on bumps using differential to me

Maybe it is a matter of finding the right settings but anyway, I really don't see the need for it as I'm able to feel the car quite fine oversteering, a.e., so if you ask me, SoP is to be disabled.

morpwr
07-12-2015, 23:01
Yes the wheel feels lighter if you remove SoP and don't add any more force. I don't think it's related to Mz though as you can clearly feel a reduction in vibration from kerbs and rough road surfaces. There's also a lack of weight in high load corners. Those two scenarios relate more to Fy and Fz than Mz.

It's also in line with the game description which says SoP is a force derived from the rear tyres. Mz is coming from the front tyres.

Sop lat gives the same force to the wheel as fy and mz. Yes they are for different reasons but the effect is still a heavier wheel. Try taking one out at a time the centering force will still be there from the rear. This is why I don't use the sop lat anymore. The other sop effects are fine. If you removed all the sop values that is why the bumps got weaker as in just turned down the rear master instead of just removing sop lat.

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 00:59
I stopped using SoP. At first seems useful but it is not. There's an unnatural change in weight when cornering using lateral and an unbalanced feel on bumps using differential to me

Maybe it is a matter of finding the right settings but anyway, I really don't see the need for it as I'm able to feel the car quite fine oversteering, a.e., so if you ask me, SoP is to be disabled.

The SOP Ferls Great to Me... it Really Depends on your set up...if your using High FX then Yes SOP is going to Feel Bad with your Tweek... Fx represents the Very Tip or Nose of the Car...

IMO The Tweeking is Being Over Complicated Calculators to adjust settings as Multipliers , Looking for Pefect Linearity and Such IMO maybe they would have made it that way for PC but i doubt Due to the Plug and Play Nature of Console that it would be made that you Need to use Such Tools... I even.doubt it that its made to be tuned like that on PC... JMO... But even if it was it will Never work right its the First Sim Racer of its kind with build your own FFB...I say Regroup step back and Try the Simple approach you might be surprised at how simple it really is.

Start with Stock Global

I see the in Car Masters as Volume Controles and you set the Settings within them according to how stron you want each force then adjust the Master to set the Level of all Forces.

Then Fine Tune your Global for best Feel, Readjust in Car Settings if Needed.

I took the Simple approach and adjusted settings according to feel and it feels Great to Me....

RomKnight
08-12-2015, 01:03
Fx for me is default (1.00) on PC

poirqc
08-12-2015, 01:23
I think that each of the tools for the front and rear wheels can work. It's a matter of going for a specific balance and sticking to the plan.

I did some test recently againt RA's and Soft Clipping. I think it's easier to use either of them. As soon as you mix both of them, weird things can happend IF they're not aligned. Balance is key.

I think the same could be applied to front and rear forces.

If you have somethings balanced toward front wheels, plugging some SoP may not work.
If you build with SoP in mind from the begining, it can work.

Rs60
08-12-2015, 01:34
After some more testing on my own, I'm leaning more towards Grimey's view of things. Certainly the take on Gain vs FFb is right on - not sure why they added the gain setting except maybe for certain wheels. It's just compressing the dynamic range.

I was running a similar setup but using the more stock FFB car settings, with SOP added. But I tried the global car mods along with - how that section does the math makes me curious, but clearly keeping master at 100 - a ratio of 1 - seems to make sense while adjusting the FX,Y,Z to suit. I definitely find SoP useful for the same reasons discussed - feeling the back end move - I was using more lateral but right now running Grimey's settings.

The point raised about Mz is interesting - more or less for street tires? - need to explore that one. But on first try turning it down did give a more street car feel

One point I would ask Grimey - why use the scoop knee functions for the CSWv2 given its huge range? That's to compress forces on part of the range to compensate for h/w limitations as I understood it - I was setting those to 0.

Would be nice if SMS provided advanced hud with simultaneous traces from FX,FY,FZ, MZ and SoP lateral and differential along with the current FFB plot...helps me to see it visually.

poirqc
08-12-2015, 01:43
After some more testing on my own, I'm leaning more towards Grimey's view of things. Certainly the take on Gain vs FFb is right on - not sure why they added the gain setting except maybe for certain wheels. It's just compressing the dynamic range.

I was running a similar setup but using the more stock FFB car settings, with SOP added. But I tried the global car mods along with - how that section does the math makes me curious, but clearly keeping master at 100 - a ratio of 1 - seems to make sense while adjusting the FX,Y,Z to suit. I definitely find SoP useful for the same reasons discussed - feeling the back end move - I was using more lateral but right now running Grimey's settings.

The point raised about Mz is interesting - more or less for street tires? - need to explore that one. But on first try turning it down did give a more street car feel

One point I would ask Grimey - why use the scoop knee functions for the CSWv2 given its huge range? That's to compress forces on part of the range to compensate for h/w limitations as I understood it - I was setting those to 0.

Would be nice if SMS provided advanced hud with simultaneous traces from FX,FY,FZ, MZ and SoP lateral and differential along with the current FFB plot...helps me to see it visually.

Scoops was probably developped to deal with G27s, where they're have a big bent in the force they produce. With that said...

With any wheels, Scoops can be disabled. You'll just run what the hardware can dish out, unadultered. On wheels like the CSWv2, depending on how it's internal parameters are set. Scoop may not be needed at all. The starting point about Scoops is to set SK an SR towards linearity. From there, you fine tune it to your taste.

You can look at the brief description in my signature.

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 02:47
The Scoops are Very important... I use them to Shape My FFB Lines... They can Control the Strength of High/Scoop Knee and Low /Scoop Reduction forces the V2 can Handle a Large Range of FFB input and can Quickly Priocess those forces into FFB out put them as Feeling accurately.

Something to consider
(1) older wheel may Not be able to puck up the Full Range of forces the New Gen Games are Putting out...Sort of like watching a Blue Ray DVD on a CRT TV the picture will be as Clear as it can be but Never HD

(2) The older wheels May Not be able to Process and output the FFB signal Fast enough so by default i formation will be Lost.
Remember New gen FFB Motors are Cervo Motors Very Fast Very Strong... That Makes a Huge Difference... My TM Tx458 Feels just as Good on XB1 as the V2 with my same Tweek its just less piwerfull but same great feel...i just adjusted the Game Master FFB to Match the wheel.

Using Scoop i shaped My FFB Graph Lines to use the Full Window...All the info Shown on the Graph can be felt in the wheel.
I can make them Tighter, Shallow or Steeper using Scoop if i want...

IMO The wheel its self will Not Create Linear or Non Lineae FFB .

IMO it will only put out the information sent to it by the Game being Played.

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 03:06
I think a Huge part of the FFB problem is that the in Car Master Scales theory has been pushed sooo Hard for sooo Long that even though its Not working its being pushed anyway Trying and Looking for ways to make it work because the people pushing it dont want to be wrong...Ive done the math the Multiplier theory just doesn't add up...It wont add up thats why is always constantly Changing Looking to evolve but it cant its a Flawed theory.... the only time i used math was with the Global Settings so that when the forces have to Multiply or Divide the End result is always dividsable the Primary #'s w/R=0

The Must use 100% Game Master FFB theory on Console Has already been Proven to be False Teaching... But It is Still Being Pushed to use 100% Game Master FFB on Console... By People that dont own or use Console!!! Amazing Why is that??? WOW...LOL

The only thing that 100% Game Master FFB does us Make the wheel Run Hotter because the Extra unused Voltage has to go some where so its Dissapated as Heat with No Power or Performance Gains to the wheel... Some wheels may Need 100% Game Master FFB .... The V2, V1, CSR E ,TX458 & T300 Do Not...you have to find your wheels FFB Sweet Spot.

morpwr
08-12-2015, 03:26
Poirc
I agree finding the balance is key. Its really easy to make the front feel like its skating instead of working like it should. Problem I see at this point is there is no one way that works well for everyone and all platforms. The wheel check tools helped a lot in getting in the right direction but still not right. The rest is in the ffb car settings as I'm finding out.
Even guys that where around from the beginning have very different opinions on what is the right way.

poirqc
08-12-2015, 03:32
Poirc
I agree finding the balance is key. Its really easy to make the front feel like its skating instead of working like it should. Problem I see at this point is there is no one way that works well for everyone and all platforms. The wheel check tools helped a lot in getting in the right direction but still not right. The rest is in the ffb car settings as I'm finding out.
Even guys that where around from the beginning have very different opinions on what is the right way.

As i've said many times, wheelcheck is only a tool get base values. It will never replace test drives. As soon as you have those values, you can go on and fine tune the car FFB with whatever tool is needed.

Cheers!

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 10:27
After some more testing on my own, I'm leaning more towards Grimey's view of things. Certainly the take on Gain vs FFb is right on - not sure why they added the gain setting except maybe for certain wheels. It's just compressing the dynamic range.

Im Not saying PCars wasn't intended to be for the Master Scales to be Multipliers... Ex Master Fx= forces coming fron the steering rack etc... as some are tyring to use them...What im saying is that even if that was the way the FFB was Designed to be Tweeked in the beginning the End Product Tweeking that way doe's Not work for Me... Ive Tried it that way and can Not get Good Results.... Even using the calculators the Feel is Way Off and Can Not Match the Feel i Have Now from Tweeking from Scratch using Hands on Feel, Trial and Error.

I use 1 FFB Tweek for all Cars and all Cars Remain with their own Handling Characteristics.... FFB is only to give you Road, Weight Transfer, Curb/Bump Feel it is Not ment to Change the way a Car Handles thats what suspension tuning is for. JMO, My own theory and thoughts.

poirqc
08-12-2015, 10:54
Im Not saying PCars wasn't intended to be for the Master Scales to be Multipliers... Ex Master Fx= forces coming fron the steering rack etc... as some are tyring to use them...What im saying is that even if that was the way the FFB was Designed to be Tweeked in the beginning the End Product Tweeking that way doe's Not work for Me... Ive Tried it that way and can Not get Good Results.... Even using the calculators the Feel is Way Off and Can Not Match the Feel i Have Now from Tweeking from Scratch using Hands on Feel, Trial and Error.

I use 1 FFB Tweek for all Cars and all Cars Remain with their own Handling Characteristics.... FFB is only to give you Road, Weight Transfer, Curb/Bump Feel it is Not ment to Change the way a Car Handles thats what suspension tuning is for. JMO, My own theory and thoughts.

Beleive me, FxyzMz can mess the way a car behave!

I started to mess with the Car FFB of the CTR Ruf the other day. I didn't knew what i was doing. The car went from nice to undrivable! :D

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 11:17
Beleive me, FxyzMz can mess the way a car behave!

I started to mess with the Car FFB of the CTR Ruf the other day. I didn't knew what i was doing. The car went from nice to undrivable! :D

LOL...Look at that Yellow F1 car pic i posted a few post up on this thread it shows wher all the Forces are applied... The Fx is the very Tip/Nose of the car and should or at least i set it Low because when set High it takes away more feel than it Gives... Some base and adjust the other settings around it but that makes the car feel like its Nose Diving all the Time.

another important thing to consider is the View that People Race in for some one who Drives from the Bonnet or Bumper View High Fx my be good for them... I drive inside the car View so that Nose dive feeling will Not work for Me... The View you Drive in Has a Big impact on FFB preference.

poirqc
08-12-2015, 12:05
LOL...Look at that Yellow F1 car pic i posted a few post up on this yhread it shows wher all the Forces are applied... The Fx is the very Tip/Nose of the car and should or at least i set it Low because when set High it takes away more feel than it Gives... Some base and adjust the other settings around it but that makes the car feel like its Nose Diving all the Time.

another important thing to consider is the View that People Race in for some one who Drives from the Bonnet or Bumper View High Fx my be good for them... I drive inside the cr View so that Nose dive feeling will Not work for Me... The View you Drive in Has a Big impact on FFB preference.

Yeah, that pic helps alot to visualise the various forces.

Driving style could dictate how someone wants to balance FFB. There's not point in making some behaviors come out when you're not driving to make them appears. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

verri0129
08-12-2015, 13:43
The "MZ" setting i Turn down for car classes Lower than GT3... MZ= Wheel centering force...Race cars have sharp Snappy steering so i keep "MZ" 100 for them it gives more More info/feel for what the car is doing at center of the wheel... as you get to R4 Class they are more like Street cars that are beefed up & Tuned for racing... Lower the "MZ" until the car Steering feels natural to you. The "MZ" is the only setting that i find i Need to Tweek for the lower car classes.

Also i use a Fanatec V2 you can use My Tweek the way it is with your wheel but if you Need to make the Overall FFB Effects weaker you just simply turn down the in car master Scale Sliders until you get to a comfortable level of FFB Strength that fits your taste.

i just tuned the 125 cart and i Put the "MZ" down to 40 feels Great there for me....Keep turning the "MZ" down until the kart feels good to you. "MZ" was the only setting i moved.

Edit made a shot Kart Video that shows the settings at end of Video... didnt want to bore you with Tire warm up laps...LOL

https://youtu.be/-3KCWeM6z2s

Well, after I set my FFB at 28 then reduced "mz" to 30, the clanking feel improved, but still have a little. The clanking only happens when I turn my wheel back to center, even at very low speed(lower than 10km/h), but when the car is not moving, the clanking is gone, I can turn my wheel smoothly(but tighter). the clanking is not only the noise but the feeling also, that feeling is unrealistic. I wasn't driving over kerbs or bumps or at high speed, simply turning the wheel back to center should feel smooth? Please correct me if I'm wrong about this

One more issue is that when i place the wheel at the very center, I can't feel anything,no FFB nor vibration at all from the road, I'm sure that when the wheel is at the center the FFB is not activated. Is there anything I can do for it? or it's simply the wheel's spec is not so good to convey the information? the setting I use completely follows your global setting, only the FFB and mz were adjusted lower.(deadzone removal range is at 0, deadzone removal falloff is at full Left then ​5 ​clicks right too.

GrimeyDog
08-12-2015, 14:04
What wheel are you using???

verri0129
08-12-2015, 15:13
What wheel are you using???

I'm using logitech G29

poirqc
08-12-2015, 15:28
I'm using logitech G29

The G29 is build like the G27, so they say. It has a big FFB deadzone compared to other wheels. You can deal with that with a proper Deadzone Removals(Good DRR / DRF ratio). You could use most of GrimeyDog's settings but you have to adjusts Deadzones and Scoops for your wheel.

verri0129
09-12-2015, 06:34
The G29 is build like the G27, so they say. It has a big FFB deadzone compared to other wheels. You can deal with that with a proper Deadzone Removals(Good DRR / DRF ratio). You could use most of GrimeyDog's settings but you have to adjusts Deadzones and Scoops for your wheel.

Got it! I will set those after work today. I think that's the thing.

Kain NL
09-12-2015, 19:30
Yow Grimey, one question here....cause I've can't get back that one feel in my, TO ME, perfect ffb set up. I can feel everything I need to feel front and back, understeer and oversteer. But the wheel feels to light after patch 6.0. I know there's only one slider to set higher, tried a couple and set them back to my original settings, but can't remember which one.

Haiden
09-12-2015, 20:35
Well, after I set my FFB at 28 then reduced "mz" to 30, the clanking feel improved, but still have a little. The clanking only happens when I turn my wheel back to center, even at very low speed(lower than 10km/h), but when the car is not moving, the clanking is gone, I can turn my wheel smoothly(but tighter). the clanking is not only the noise but the feeling also, that feeling is unrealistic. I wasn't driving over kerbs or bumps or at high speed, simply turning the wheel back to center should feel smooth? Please correct me if I'm wrong about this

One more issue is that when i place the wheel at the very center, I can't feel anything,no FFB nor vibration at all from the road, I'm sure that when the wheel is at the center the FFB is not activated. Is there anything I can do for it? or it's simply the wheel's spec is not so good to convey the information? the setting I use completely follows your global setting, only the FFB and mz were adjusted lower.(deadzone removal range is at 0, deadzone removal falloff is at full Left then ​5 ​clicks right too.

Mz isn't just wheel centering force. Mz is the twisting/self-aligning force of the wheel. It's a force spectrum that will let you know when you're approaching the grip limits and understeering. On my TX, T300, and CSW it comes across like a chugging feeling when the FF/TF balance favors too much FF (and that balance varies--depends on your other settings). There's a good chance that the clanking feeling you're getting in the G29, is that wheel's version of the chugging feeling you feel in other wheels.

GrimeyDog
09-12-2015, 22:09
Yow Grimey, one question here....cause I've can't get back that one feel in my, TO ME, perfect ffb set up. I can feel everything I need to feel front and back, understeer and oversteer. But the wheel feels to light after patch 6.0. I know there's only one slider to set higher, tried a couple and set them back to my original settings, but can't remember which one.

Unfortunately i have to do a full delete of game after every update to make sure i get my same wheel feel back... Cloud and Hard drive game save Must go and do a fresh instal thats the only way i find to get things back to the Norm.

GrimeyDog
09-12-2015, 23:43
Just My Thoughts

I see the FFB as Static a set it and forget it thing... I see it as more of adjusting the Game Software/ Volume Control to tell it How Strong i want Bumps and Curbs to Feel. The option to Tweek every Cars FFB is a Redundant Feature and Not Necessary IMO... I say this because Ex: The Bumps and Curbs on Watkins Glen do Not Change because i'm in a Gt3, LMP1 or any car for that Matter. What Changes is How the Car Handle those Bumps, Curbs ETC that's what suspension Tuning is for... Suspension Tuning us the Only True Dynamic Feature when Setting up a Car....IMO Tweeking the FFB to make the Car Handle Bumps, Curbs etc can only Yield a Canned Effect because you are actually altering Game Physics by doing so.

In Car FFB = Static because Bumpy Roads don't Change Per Car or Per Car Class.

Suspension Tuning = Dynamic Because the Cars Suspension even when Stock Shocks, Springs, Dampers, Camber, Caster Etc all Change according to Road Surface to make the car Handle the Track as it was intended or Designed...It is the only True Dynamic Tool in the in Car Tuning Menu Because it is Ment to be Tuned and adjusted per Track.... anything else is a Canned Effect.

I use 1 FFB set up for all Cars and Tracks No Clipping and Every Car Remains with its own identity and Handling Characteristics.

IMO The in Car FFB is being Made way to Complicated... there is No way to Accurately Calculate Spindle Forces, Weight Transfer Forces when setting In Car FFB because we are Talking about Weight Inertia Lateral Vertical = X ???
Even to just to have the Option to Calculate FFB in that manner First we would have to Know the Exact Calculation #=s that were Programmed into PCars for Weight, Inertia,Lateral and Vertical Force... and No one but SMS Knows those equations.

after Months of FFB Tweeking I Suggest that a Regroup and Reassessment of How to go about the FFB is Needed.

Try the Simple approach Treat the sliders as Volume Controls and adjust by Feel and see what you find you will be surprised... Simplicity is The Key.


Try the Simple approach Treat the sliders as Volume Controls and adjust by Feel and see what you find you will be surprised... Simplicity is The Key.


I have the V2, CSR E, 911 gt2 I can get Basically the same Feel for each wheel with the same Tweek just they all put out different FFB Strength...I don't expect the older wheels to put out as fine a feel as the V2 but they all Feel Good...i use the Relative and Scoops to compensate according to the wheel.... Each wheel Needs its Own in Game Master FFB level.

I Also Have the TX458 for XB1 and it Feels just almost as good as the V2 using the same Tweek on XB1 once i found its in game master FFB sweet Spot.

My Tweek Method is Different but Very Simple i just Treat the settings as Volume Controls and adjust them according to what i want to Feel Most. I Tried the Low in Car Masters and it just wasn't working for me... When i set in car Masters to 100 and Low Fx,Fy, Fz,Mz...Same for SoP and adjusted them to each wheel i tested accordingly i got Great Success... It made Fine Tuning the Global 10x easier!!! Too Much of this or that turn the in Car Masters Down Very Simple.

GrimeyDog
10-12-2015, 10:29
Well, after I set my FFB at 28 then reduced "mz" to 30, the clanking feel improved, but still have a little. The clanking only happens when I turn my wheel back to center, even at very low speed(lower than 10km/h), but when the car is not moving, the clanking is gone, I can turn my wheel smoothly(but tighter). the clanking is not only the noise but the feeling also, that feeling is unrealistic. I wasn't driving over kerbs or bumps or at high speed, simply turning the wheel back to center should feel smooth? Please correct me if I'm wrong about this

One more issue is that when i place the wheel at the very center, I can't feel anything,no FFB nor vibration at all from the road, I'm sure that when the wheel is at the center the FFB is not activated. Is there anything I can do for it? or it's simply the wheel's spec is not so good to convey the information? the setting I use completely follows your global setting, only the FFB and mz were adjusted lower.(deadzone removal range is at 0, deadzone removal falloff is at full Left then ​5 ​clicks right too.

You will Have to Play with Dead Zone Removal Settings to get Rid of the Flat Spot in the Center of the wheel... That Clanking Feel can be the the FFB going Off and On when the wheel is between that Little Space between Dead Zone and active FFB....also Check the Controler Menu and Make sure advanced settings Tab is Set to Off... That settimg has soft Clipping built into it and can give the center of the wheel a Twitchy Feel.... I would Recomend Trying that setting Off and then try it set to On and see How it Feels... That setting is Very FFB Tast dependent so which ever you like best leave it there.

Pcars
10-12-2015, 10:44
[QUOTE=GrimeyDog;1188026]Just My Thoughts

I use 1 FFB set up for all Cars and Tracks No Clipping and Every Car Remains with its own identity and Handling Characteristics.

QUOTE]

Hey mate what setting do you for all cars? also being a PS4 owner what global setting do you recommend?

Sik180sx
10-12-2015, 11:00
Okee dokee these are my globals for the 911 turbo s

On wheel
Sens: off
Ff: 100
Sho: personal pref
Dri: 3
Abs: personal pref
Lin:000
Dea: 000
Spr: off
Dpr: off
Acl: off

Global ffb
Tf:100
Pwm:0.00
Pwms:0.00
Wps:0.02
Drr:0.00
Drf:0.00
Leave linkage stuff as is
Rag:0.60
Rab:0.25
Rac:0.55
Sk:0.00
Sr:0.00
Sc half:1.79
Sc full:3.79
Mss:0.40
Lssc:0.75
Lsss:0.60
Sg:1.00

I use all the same settings for the cars and adjust from there

Master scale:34
Fx:54
Fy:38
Fz:92
Mz:76
Smoothing as is and arm angle around 1000 depending how tight or loose around the centre(the looser it is in the centre lower arm angle,and vise versa for a tight centre)

Sop scale:always the same as you spindle master
Sop lat:30
Sop diff:60

I absolutely love these settings,but they are tailored to my tastes,if others enjoy them happy days and if not,all good :)
For a heavier whee lower the soft clip full output value to your preferred wheel weight.
These settings should work with the other 911 wheels and possibly the csr.

GrimeyDog
10-12-2015, 11:23
[QUOTE=GrimeyDog;1188026]Just My Thoughts

I use 1 FFB set up for all Cars and Tracks No Clipping and Every Car Remains with its own identity and Handling Characteristics.

QUOTE]

Hey mate what setting do you for all cars? also being a PS4 owner what global setting do you recommend?

The PDF is on the First Page. all the settings are in there. Cheers

2stains
10-12-2015, 11:38
Okee dokee these are my globals for the 911 turbo s

On wheel
Sens: off
Ff: 100
Sho: personal pref
Dri: 3
Abs: personal pref
Lin:000
Dea: 000
Spr: off
Dpr: off
Acl: off

Global ffb
Tf:100
Pwm:0.00
Pwms:0.00
Wps:0.02
Drr:0.00
Drf:0.00
Leave linkage stuff as is
Rag:0.60
Rab:0.25
Rac:0.55
Sk:0.00
Sr:0.00
Sc half:1.79
Sc full:3.79
Mss:0.40
Lssc:0.75
Lsss:0.60
Sg:1.00

I use all the same settings for the cars and adjust from there

Master scale:34
Fx:54
Fy:38
Fz:92
Mz:76
Smoothing as is and arm angle around 1000 depending how tight or loose around the centre(the looser it is in the centre lower arm angle,and vise versa for a tight centre)

Sop scale:always the same as you spindle master
Sop lat:30
Sop diff:60

I absolutely love these settings,but they are tailored to my tastes,if others enjoy them happy days and if not,all good :)
For a heavier whee lower the soft clip full output value to your preferred wheel weight.
These settings should work with the other 911 wheels and possibly the csr.
Thanks for returning with updated settings , will give em a shot tomorrow . Looks promising for my GT2.
Cheers.

GrimeyDog
10-12-2015, 11:47
Okee dokee these are my globals for the 911 turbo s

On wheel
Sens: off
Ff: 100
Sho: personal pref
Dri: 3
Abs: personal pref
Lin:000
Dea: 000
Spr: off
Dpr: off
Acl: off

Global ffb
Tf:100
Pwm:0.00
Pwms:0.00
Wps:0.02
Drr:0.00
Drf:0.00
Leave linkage stuff as is
Rag:0.60
Rab:0.25
Rac:0.55
Sk:0.00
Sr:0.00
Sc half:1.79
Sc full:3.79
Mss:0.40
Lssc:0.75
Lsss:0.60
Sg:1.00

I use all the same settings for the cars and adjust from there

Master scale:34
Fx:54
Fy:38
Fz:92
Mz:76
Smoothing as is and arm angle around 1000 depending how tight or loose around the centre(the looser it is in the centre lower arm angle,and vise versa for a tight centre)

Sop scale:always the same as you spindle master
Sop lat:30
Sop diff:60

I absolutely love these settings,but they are tailored to my tastes,if others enjoy them happy days and if not,all good :)
For a heavier whee lower the soft clip full output value to your preferred wheel weight.
These settings should work with the other 911 wheels and possibly the csr.

Feel Free to post Short Videos Showing and Explaining your Telemetry and Tweek work...I welcome All FFB Tweekers to Post Share and Compare Ideas for all Wheels. Thnx

GrimeyDog
10-12-2015, 18:31
Thanks for returning with updated settings , will give em a shot tomorrow . Looks promising for my GT2.
Cheers.

Let me.know when you Ready!!! Ima be on PS4 in a Few Min. Laguna Seca again or wha??? You Name the Track.

2stains
11-12-2015, 01:50
Let me.know when you Ready!!! Ima be on PS4 in a Few Min. Laguna Seca again or wha??? You Name the Track.
Get some practice in lmp1 round Le Mans mate .
But won't be on till tonight my time . See you soon though .

ceoCorona
11-12-2015, 02:29
GrimeyDog I am loving the CSW v2 FFB settings! I went from G29, T300, to the CSW set and this is by far the best combo and tweaks. Thanks for taking the time!!!

GrimeyDog
11-12-2015, 10:54
GrimeyDog I am loving the CSW v2 FFB settings! I went from G29, T300, to the CSW set and this is by far the best combo and tweaks. Thanks for taking the time!!!

No Problem feel Free to inbox me/post or ask any Questions i will be Happy to Help... Spread the word about the FFB we can make PCars a better Game once people Realize that PCars FFB is actually very Good that there is a better way to Tweek.

rams1de
12-12-2015, 10:41
... after Months of FFB Tweeking I Suggest that a Regroup and Reassessment of How to go about the FFB is Needed.

I'm pretty sure the force feedback guide in the General Discussion forum was written by one of the devs, Andrew Webber possibly?

As it's written by someone who understands what force feedback is, the physics feeding the FFB system and limitations inherent in various wheels it remains the best guide available. It actually explains why there are options for adjustable in car settings and global settings.

The case study shows setting up FFB is not as complicated as many make out and the majority of players will be satisfied with getting rid of problematic drag, fixing deadzone and reducing clipping where there is too much.

For those who want more, each FFB component is explained but the technical jargon holds it back meaning we get all sorts of weird interpretations (quite a few in this thread). I think some layman's descriptions would make the Force Feedback Guide pretty much the go to reference for everybody.

verri0129
12-12-2015, 12:02
No Problem feel Free to inbox me/post or ask any Questions i will be Happy to Help... Spread the word about the FFB we can make PCars a better Game once people Realize that PCars FFB is actually very Good that there is a better way to Tweek.

GrimmeyDog, you mentioned the FX for RWD is 2, FWD is 6. How about AWD and those RWDs with mid engine and front engine?

vahagn_hayk
12-12-2015, 15:26
has anyone tested CSW V2 + F1 rim (carbon and/ or steel versions) ? just wondering how different the F1 rim is or how much adjustments need to be made in comparison to the Porsche or BMW rim on the CSW V2.

Kain NL
12-12-2015, 15:57
I think, because of the smaller size, you need to lower the in car master scales to your own licking. Nothing more. If you use Grimeys settings. I'd try 50 master spindle and 50 Sop master in stead of 100 to begin with ?
Don't own a Formula rim, it's just a (to me) logical suggestion.

I'll post my settings later on.

GrimeyDog
12-12-2015, 22:00
has anyone tested CSW V2 + F1 rim (carbon and/ or steel versions) ? just wondering how different the F1 rim is or how much adjustments need to be made in comparison to the Porsche or BMW rim on the CSW V2.

Using the right Tweek No Adjustments Need be made... I don't have to adjust steering ratio with my tweek... the only thing with the smaller rim is that the FFB feels a tad bit stronger due to Less Leverage because of its smaller size... i use 75% FFB on Wheel and same in car settings No matter what rim used Hub w/GT Forza rim, Porsche rim or F1 rim.

GrimeyDog
13-12-2015, 07:35
https://youtu.be/iHYBFhS5MR8

Ruf GT3 Laguna Seca 1:23.xxx Just Good FFB Stock Tune!!!

Haiden
13-12-2015, 16:55
has anyone tested CSW V2 + F1 rim (carbon and/ or steel versions) ? just wondering how different the F1 rim is or how much adjustments need to be made in comparison to the Porsche or BMW rim on the CSW V2.

I have the F1 rim, but can only compare it to the CSL. The FFB definitely feels a bit stronger with the F1 rim, and the details seem to come through a little more. But, other than adjusting the Master scales, I don't change my settings between wheels.

MRSpeed
14-12-2015, 07:11
Hi GrimeyDog..

you made my day mate…!! Hot Stuff…:cool:

until now I used the Tweakfiles from JS on PS4… and I was unhappy with this settings… im always waiting for the WOW Effect… it didn’t come… but now this belongs to the past…

My Setup is shown below:

PS4
Fanatec:
V2 Base
V3 Pedals
Universal Hub with Flat1 Riem

What can I say… incredibly how different your FFB Settings working GrimeyDog… that’s what FFB should be…:encouragement:

Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t say that JS goes a wrong way…its a different way… and everbody must decide on his own…I have tested both, and for me its like X-Mas…

Now I can feel so much different things better…such as rumbling over curbs, suffer from loss of grip, understeering and oversteering exactly, blocking tyres… a.s.o

And youre right GrimeyDog its possible to drive with the default settings great Laps… only the Temps for the Brakes, Water/Oil and tyre pressure I changed…

With additional Settings such as Wing, TC and DIFF I was at least 2 seconds faster…at the same car and same track… more words are useless…

I often had troubles with the steering ratio at different tracks and cars…. This is part of the past…. Now I don’t change anything and it works perfect…

Well done GrimeyDog… now I have a FFB that fits perfect for me… you are my santa this year….:triumphant:

Haiden
14-12-2015, 11:52
take a look at this diagram...This is why i cant figure out why some set the Fx setting sooo high. ...Fx represents the front to back forces No one drives with the very tip or rear of their car... This setting set too high takes away more feel than it gives. example of these forces would be Diving very fast over a hill when you hit the crest of the Hill your steering wheel will feel light as your front tires try to leave the ground. try this setting really High on the up Hill section of Laguna Seca and see how it feels then turn it Down Very low and check the feel again

Fx,Fy,Fz is just a 3D picture model of the car... you have to know this in order to know what feeling the setting your Tweeking will affect.
Fx = front to back
Fy = Left to Right side load feel
Fz = Vertical force/ Up and down or curb and Bump feel.

Isn't Fx more about weight transfer--front to back--as in acceleration and braking? Depending on your driving style, that's important to some. Also, isn't the lift you get cresting a hill a vertical force? I feel all the undulations in the track, but raising/lowering Fx seems to have little affect on this. With regards to how Fx relates to the other forces, I find the opposite to be true--Fx being one of the easier forces to drown out. Set it too low, and you'll never feel braking's affect on overall grip.

GrimeyDog
14-12-2015, 20:15
Isn't Fx more about weight transfer--front to back--as in acceleration and braking? Depending on your driving style, that's important to some. Also, isn't the lift you get cresting a hill a vertical force? I feel all the undulations in the track, but raising/lowering Fx seems to have little affect on this. With regards to how Fx relates to the other forces, I find the opposite to be true--Fx being one of the easier forces to drown out. Set it too low, and you'll never feel braking's affect on overall grip.

If i was in a Motion Simulator then Maybe Fx would be more important but even then i would set it Low set it too High you May Face Plant on the Steering wheel... LOL ... Even in a Real Car the Nose of the Car Gives very Little Road Feel when you are Driving, Cornering you get most of that from Fy.

The Steering Wheel Has No way to Convey Front to Back forces Physically...it has to to try to out put the Fy Front to back forces within the Fx Left to Right forces... You will be Drowning out 1 or the other by Default.

Fy Gives Front to Back feel and Little to No Cornering Feel,

Fx Gives Left to Right cornering feel and Little to No Front to Back Feel.

Choose 1 but as Long as your Getting the feel thats right for you all is well.

Haiden
14-12-2015, 20:50
If i was in a Motion Simulator then Maybe Fx would be more important but even then i would set it Low set it too High you May Face Plant on the Steering wheel... LOL ... Even in a Real Car the Nose of the Car Gives very Little Road Feel when you are Driving, Cornering you get most of that from Fy.

The Steering Wheel Has No way to Convey Front to Back forces Physically...it has to to try to out put the Fy Front to back forces within the Fx Left to Right forces... You will be Drowning out 1 or the other by Default.

Fy Gives Front to Back feel and Little to No Cornering Feel,

Fx Gives Left to Right cornering feel and Little to No Front to Back Feel.

Choose 1 but as Long as your Getting the feel thats right for you all is well.

Hmmm.... I don't know. I have Fx set to 100. I feel braking--heavier in some cars than others--and still feel the lateral forces from the Fy scale. On my T300, I couldn't really feel the braking unless the FF/TF balance heavily favored FF. But with my CSW-v2, I can feel it even with a more TF heavy balance. In my experience, what you feel from the Fx scale also depends on your other global settings, especially Scoop.

GrimeyDog
14-12-2015, 21:56
Hhmmm Those Relative settings look Familiar...but any way as Long as your Happy with the Feel you Have thats What matters most...Good FFB = Consistent and Good Lap Times.... Im there My Search fir FFB is Over... For Now...LOL

Haiden
14-12-2015, 22:07
Hhmmm Those Relative settings look Familiar...but any way as Long as your Happy with the Feel you Have thats What matters most...Good FFB = Consistent and Good Lap Times.... Im there My Search fir FFB is Over... For Now...LOL

Yeah... I started with Guzzlebeard's settings. I think I saw them in yours, too. I actually didn't have to make to many changes to Guzzlebeard's tune. The Deadzone removal had to go, though. Too much oscillation, even at lower speeds.

That's how I feel. It didn't take me as long to find the sweet spot this time. Of course, that's just because of all the testing I did before, so I know what to change. But I'm with you. I'm done...for now. :) Or until SMS changes something that upsets my tune. :)

rams1de
15-12-2015, 09:36
If i was in a Motion Simulator then Maybe Fx would be more important but even then i would set it Low set it too High you May Face Plant on the Steering wheel... LOL ... Even in a Real Car the Nose of the Car Gives very Little Road Feel when you are Driving, Cornering you get most of that from Fy.

The Steering Wheel Has No way to Convey Front to Back forces Physically...it has to to try to out put the Fy Front to back forces within the Fx Left to Right forces... You will be Drowning out 1 or the other by Default.

Fy Gives Front to Back feel and Little to No Cornering Feel,

Fx Gives Left to Right cornering feel and Little to No Front to Back Feel.

Choose 1 but as Long as your Getting the feel thats right for you all is well.

Hi Grimey, hope you don't mind but it appears you might be getting mixed up here (you explained it right a few pages back).

The spindle settings Fx, Fy and Fz are directional forces acting on the tyre at it's point of contact with the road.

x is the longitudinal direction and Fx represents the force acting when moving in straight line ie under braking and acceleration.
y is the lateral direction and Fy represents the force when the tyre is being pushed sideways such as when cornering.
z is the vertical direction and Fz represents force pressing the tyre into the road surface (or the road surface pushing back against the tyre is more accurate)

I find Fx is the most difficult force to distinguish at the wheel. That's because it mostly comes into effect when driving in a straight line and the force is relatively constant over a period of time, so there are few dramatic changes in torque that would give vibration to the wheel and obviously no resistance in the wheel because it's not being turned. It's easier to see on the telemetry HUD as the flat line moves up (under braking) and down (accelerating).

I think the best way to understand feedback from Fx is testing a car which activates ABS. The brakes are on and off quickly to stop lock up so you can feel the slight difference at the wheel under heavy braking.

However, Fx is important for proving road feel. The changes in vertical force (Fz) as you drive over bumps and kerbs provide the vibrations that give us road feel at the wheel and therefore is a combination of Fx and Fz. We need to be moving in order for there to be a change.

There's nothing to stop you down mixing Fx of course but it seems counter intuitive when a lot of tweaking with scoops and soft clipping is done with the objective of increasing and providing more detail from those forces.

GrimeyDog
15-12-2015, 11:14
Hi Grimey, hope you don't mind but it appears you might be getting mixed up here (you explained it right a few pages back).

The spindle settings Fx, Fy and Fz are directional forces acting on the tyre at it's point of contact with the road.

x is the longitudinal direction and Fx represents the force acting when moving in straight line ie under braking and acceleration.
y is the lateral direction and Fy represents the force when the tyre is being pushed sideways such as when cornering.
z is the vertical direction and Fz represents force pressing the tyre into the road surface (or the road surface pushing back against the tyre is more accurate)

I find Fx is the most difficult force to distinguish at the wheel. That's because it mostly comes into effect when driving in a straight line and the force is relatively constant over a period of time, so there are few dramatic changes in torque that would give vibration to the wheel and obviously no resistance in the wheel because it's not being turned. It's easier to see on the telemetry HUD as the flat line moves up (under braking) and down (accelerating).

I think the best way to understand feedback from Fx is testing a car which activates ABS. The brakes are on and off quickly to stop lock up so you can feel the slight difference at the wheel under heavy braking.

However, Fx is important for proving road feel. The changes in vertical force (Fz) as you drive over bumps and kerbs provide the vibrations that give us road feel at the wheel and therefore is a combination of Fx and Fz. We need to be moving in order for there to be a change.

There's nothing to stop you down mixing Fx of course but it seems counter intuitive when a lot of tweaking with scoops and soft clipping is done with the objective of increasing and providing more detail from those forces.

Its easy to get Confused with all these settings... But thats the Great Part of Having a open Minded Forum thread because some one can always Help you to get back on Track:yes:

Were pretty much saying the same things i said Front to back Forces/ You say Moving in a Straight Line your description conveys the point More accurately:yes: the only Difference is How Much of that Force we each Need to get the Feel we want.... I still run my Masters at 100 so Fx at 2 is just Fine for me...Low Masters May Have to Crank the Fx up a Bit to get the same Feel i get because my Masters are Higher...I set the Fx on Laguna Seca on the up Hill Section before the Down Hill L R turn as i Full speed up the Hill i can Clearly feel when the front Tires try to leave the Ground and on the Down Hill I Can Feel when they Lose Road Contact also which allows me to Stab Brake to put them back on the Road... Thats the Most Beautiful Part of PCars is you can set your own Feel.

IHave Tried other ways Low Masters, Different Global Settings and i Find that 100 in Car Masters work the best for Me...and its also the Simple way for me to get the best Feel because set Masters at 100 and just Dial in the Fx,Fy etc until it feels Right to Me...When you Really Look at the # Break Down we are basicaly going for and Getting the same Feel just using different #'s imo
My in Car Settings Are
Masters 100, Fx 2, Fy 30, Fz 100, Mz 100 LMP1 -> GT3....Lower than GT3 because they dont have that Race Car Sharp direct Steering and Have More Body Roll and Flex i Lower Mz until it feels Natural for the Car

So Far with My Method since patch 4.0 i Tweeked to find better Glabal settings but i have Not had to Change My in Car settings and i get the same Good Feel No extra Tweeking.

Patch 6.0 Tire Model did Reduce the at the wheel Strength but that was a simple Fix i just upped the in Game Master FFB from 35 to 40... 7.0 Tire Model seemed to add the at the wheel power back so i just simply went back to 35. I did Prefer 6.0 Tire Model More because it Made the Tire Heat and Wear More True to Real Life IMO.

I Hope SMS puts the 6.0 tire Model Back because PCars Became a Strategic Sim Racer you had to pick and Choose when to Push Hard to save your Tires...Now with 7.0 its back to Mindless Hot Lapping No Strategy Required.

We Have No Official SMS FFB Tweek Blue Print so...There is No Right there is No Wrong... as Long as i Feels good to you thats all that Matters... That is the Beauty of PCars FFB system....Its a PCars Tweek fest...LOL

inthebagbud
15-12-2015, 18:04
grimey if you use a higher ffb what changes in the ffb feel for you

Reason for question is even if I use your exact settings on TX/xbox the ffb is like driving over very pronounced cobbles especially round corners. It's as if the tyres are jumping round the corner and at certain points I get a massive jolt. I am assuming this is the feeling for the wheels loosing grip but it is way to exaggerated and just cant get rid of it , so wondered if you had experienced this at all

GrimeyDog
15-12-2015, 23:54
grimey if you use a higher ffb what changes in the ffb feel for you

Reason for question is even if I use your exact settings on TX/xbox the ffb is like driving over very pronounced cobbles especially round corners. It's as if the tyres are jumping round the corner and at certain points I get a massive jolt. I am assuming this is the feeling for the wheels loosing grip but it is way to exaggerated and just cant get rid of it , so wondered if you had experienced this at all

Hiw Much In Game Master FFB are you using??? use 65 to 75 thats the sweet Spot for that Wheel.... Set Relative adjust gain to 100 and "Reduce the Relative adjust Clamp" to 85 and Keep Reducing it until you get a Comfortable Feel yes Just do it!!! LOL... I will Have a Video up Very Shortly Explaining why i said Reduce the *Relative adjust Clamp*... Im Making it Now... The Results im sure you will Find Very interesting. I finally Had a Chance to sit and test My Theory that Relative adjust Clamp is Exactly what it says it is... The Name Sez it all and the Video will Speak for its self.... And you Suffer No Loss of Dynamic FFB Range... By Reducing Relative adjust Clamp.

GrimeyDog
16-12-2015, 03:11
Audio on Video was bad... Need to adjust Mic Volume on Astro A40's will make New Video but these are My Findings.

Relative adjust Clamp Test!!! very interesting results that prove what i have always suspected!!!

Relative adjust gain is the maximum FFB you want = second cut to FFB so that no FFB force shall exceed the level its set to.

Edit:I may Have to Amend or Change this statment... Its Close but May Not be Totally Accurate due to New Discoverys But yes it is Exacty what the Name Says but More Testing Needed to Realize if its to set a Starting Point for Constant Road, Curb, Bump feel FFB or if its to set point to Begin Clipping FFB so Residual FFB spikes will Not Go above the Set Gain point ---> "Relative adjust Clamp ( its Exactly what the name says) = the point at which the FFB is Clamped/Cut the first time so that you can set the FFB level to avoid clipping due to FFB spikes."

Example when you turn a fan off you still feel the wind until the residual power dissipates... same thing with the FFB you Clamp it at 90(First cut) but the residual FFB spikes will keep rising until they dissipate...Relative adjust gain is the second cut Ex: if you have it set to 1.00 any residual FFB spikes that try to Rise above 1.0 will be cut again to ensure you stay within the Range that you have set as maximum in this test that maximum was 1.00.

test was run using TF 1.00 , RAG 1.00, RAC 50, 70, 90 , Steering Gain 1.00 and My basic in car FFB with the Masters at 100... No Damping, Smoothing, No Soft Clipping Half input/ out put used and FFB Graph shows No Clipping and No clipping is felt in the wheel... Wheel is Full Dynamic and Lively.

And yes before you disagree try it for you self... Simple and easy test.

GrimeyDog
16-12-2015, 21:31
Very interesting result playing with Relative Adjust Clamp... I don't feel like Re-tweeking to cultivate it... too Many variables EX: we don't even know What Most of the sliders are Equal to... The ones that go to 200 is it 100 = 50% or is it 100% and 200= Overdrive???

Just a Random lap to show how the graph was influenced by playing with the Relative Adjust Gain... Note How it stays to the middle now and wont Move to the top or bottom of the FFB Graph Window... but the Spikes when hitting Rumble Strips will use the full FFB window...Feels Good but i don't feel like Re-Tweeking. i was Board and just Started sample Tweeking to see what i could come up with.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

poirqc
16-12-2015, 22:15
Very interesting result playing with Relative Adjust Clamp... I don't feel like Re-tweeking to cultivate it... too Many variables EX: we don't even know What Most of the sliders are Equal to... The ones that go to 200 is it 100 = 50% or is it 100% and 200= Overdrive???

Just a Random lap to show how the graph was influenced by playing with the Relative Adjust Gain... Note How it stays to the middle now and wont Move to the top or bottom of the FFB Graph Window... but the Spikes when hitting Rumble Strips will use the full FFB window...Feels Good but i don't feel like Re-Tweeking. i was Board and just Started sample Tweeking to see what i could come up with.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

In this video, what RAC did you have beside RAG @ 1? I guess it was around RAC 0,50 ?

inthebagbud
16-12-2015, 23:21
Hiw Much In Game Master FFB are you using??? use 65 to 75 thats the sweet Spot for that Wheel.... Set Relative adjust gain to 100 and "Reduce the Relative adjust Clamp" to 85 and Keep Reducing it until you get a Comfortable Feel yes Just do it!!! LOL... I will Have a Video up Very Shortly Explaining why i said Reduce the *Relative adjust Clamp*... Im Making it Now... The Results im sure you will Find Very interesting. I finally Had a Chance to sit and test My Theory that Relative adjust Clamp is Exactly what it says it is... The Name Sez it all and the Video will Speak for its self.... And you Suffer No Loss of Dynamic FFB Range... By Reducing Relative adjust Clamp.

I run 75 ffb with scoop set from wheelchecker thread with no drr and rag around .98 rab .1 rac .96 , tf 100 and have to run in car force around 50/60

Spent a good few more hours testing and no way can I reproduce on my system a graph like your TX. I now have good road feel which matches the movement of the car but the cornering is not smooth at all.

Watching your vids the cornering looks smooth, but mine is like driving round in steps rather than a nice circular movement. As I do not have any real life experience to fallback on I have to ask myself is this how it should be and if so then I have cracked it ????...

If it shouldn't be like this I am at a loss as to which setting to alter as I need rag otherwise the wheel clips massively , drr has been set at zero as I do not need them with such high forces

Why the hell sms couldn't provide examples is beyond me .......I just want to drive not tweak!!!

Sorry bit of a ramble but I am loosing the will

So question is how should a unturned gt3 car feel going round corners

GrimeyDog
16-12-2015, 23:52
I run 75 ffb with scoop set from wheelchecker thread with no drr and rag around .98 rab .1 rac .96 , tf 100 and have to run in car force around 50/60

Spent a good few more hours testing and no way can I reproduce on my system a graph like your TX. I now have good road feel which matches the movement of the car but the cornering is not smooth at all.

Watching your vids the cornering looks smooth, but mine is like driving round in steps rather than a nice circular movement. As I do not have any real life experience to fallback on I have to ask myself is this how it should be and if so then I have cracked it ????...

If it shouldn't be like this I am at a loss as to which setting to alter as I need rag otherwise the wheel clips massively , drr has been set at zero as I do not need them with such high forces

Why the hell sms couldn't provide examples is beyond me .......I just want to drive not tweak!!!

Sorry bit of a ramble but I am loosing the will

So question is how should a unturned gt3 car feel going round corners

My TX is Smooth on My XB1... I Run My Same V2 Tweek with it and 65 in Game Master FFB... Pay attention to the DRR Setting i my PDF.. that is Full Left then 5 Clicks Right... I will Definitly Check my TX and see if i can Help find What is going on with your wheel.

poirqc
17-12-2015, 00:38
Very interesting result playing with Relative Adjust Clamp... I don't feel like Re-tweeking to cultivate it... too Many variables EX: we don't even know What Most of the sliders are Equal to... The ones that go to 200 is it 100 = 50% or is it 100% and 200= Overdrive???

Just a Random lap to show how the graph was influenced by playing with the Relative Adjust Gain... Note How it stays to the middle now and wont Move to the top or bottom of the FFB Graph Window... but the Spikes when hitting Rumble Strips will use the full FFB window...Feels Good but i don't feel like Re-Tweeking. i was Board and just Started sample Tweeking to see what i could come up with.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

I did some tests, i'll try to summarise what i found. There's 2 side of a coin. The first is the setting by itself. The other side is how it blend with the rest, but more importantly, how it affect drivability.

Tire Force:
The easiest way to test Tire Force is to disable everything. You put every tools at 0. You then set TF @ 100, WPS @ 0,01 and Steering Gain @ 1. This may not give a good driving experience, it's just to find the highest value a wheel can take. After that, pick you're favorite car, start a Time trial(tire already warm) and trow it into a curve, while trail breaking hard, without locking the break. This will tell you the maximum torque the car wheels will send to the FFB signal.

At first, it'll clip right away(maybe not for stronger wheels). Go reduce Tire Force until you can trow the car without clipping. This will give you the 100% Tire Force your wheel can receive, without signal compression.

This number isn't a percentage by itself. With all else being equel, for my G27, it max at TF 40. For my old MOMO, it max at TF 35. Let's say i want 50% that force, it would then be TF20 or TF 18 respectively. Keep in mind that as you change the Car FFB, the max Tire Force may change. What i mean by all this is that the MAX Tire Force, without Relative Adjusts or Soft Clipping, isn't the same from wheel to wheel.

From there, you need to make changes based on feel:



If you like the overall feel, but you have a deadzone, you may use DRR / DRF
If you want to boost low force and compress high forces, you may use Soft Clipping.
Etc...


I was about to write about Relative Adjusts, but the language barrier is stopping me. I'll kick myself and take some screenshots. It'll help me.

Thoughts?

GrimeyDog
17-12-2015, 01:00
Hmmm... I Will Give that a Try and post what Result i Get... Im about to Go to bed for the Night i wll get back to the FFB when i get off tomorrow... Your English is Very Good your points are usually Very Clearly Explained... Cheers....Yes i was mainly Sampling RAG at 50 i changed a Few other things to get Good Feel... Id Have to set it back up to get exact settings but im off to sleep Now 4am wake up for me.

gotdirt410sprintcar
17-12-2015, 02:47
Yeah gim I did some testing the last two nights with what you have said about RA gain at the same as tire force. It did seem a little better as for the ffb line not going flat but its so hard to get a sweet spot. I want out of my wheel is light on the gas heavy under braking light if I get lock up and heavy when you go in to like a down hill back to flat then back up a hill the wheel should get heavy then too imo.

I think linkage stiffness has effect too I did some testing with that but to high I lost everything but that was with damping the same as stiffness. I seen krus control has it at linkage stiffness at 2.00 with no damping and 0 scale have to try that see what happens. And I think something changed with the FFB with this last update don't now if it is the new SDK's they are using

Jezza819
17-12-2015, 05:06
As a brand new V2 owner, a friend of mine pointed me to this thread to get some idea of the settings for PCars.

One thing I did notice is that you refer to some settings on the wheel that I don't see on mine. FOR, Dpr, Spr are not shown on my wheel. Mine goes straight from Dri to Brf.

I couldn't stand Tire Force at 98, just too strong. I had to put it back down in the 30's where I had it on my TX. Now I will further test to see how much more I can use since I only had a short time to run some races.

On my TX I had controller input at 2, Advanced steering on, soft steering dampening off. That's the way I ran the first couple of races. Then I decided to give your settings a shot and frankly I couldn't tell much difference at all.

On the TX I had to make the steering ratio at 7:9.1 to get the cars to rotate like I wanted them to and the rear ends still wanted to slide around a bit. But on the V2 7:9.1 seems to make the cars want to snap oversteer more. Where did you find the sweet spot regarding steering ratio? I'm going to test moving the number up maybe to around 10 and trying it again.

rams1de
17-12-2015, 08:51
.... Thoughts?

I think it's an excellent approach and getting towards the methodology recommended in the official force feedback guide.

I would add a recommendation to console owners to set FFB master to the default value as this gives an accurate correlation between graph and feel at the wheel in my experience. Assuming people want to use the graph as a guide.

I also think we'd have been better served if default FFB had scoops, soft clip and relative adjust turned off. The FFB would have felt more familiar as without the shaping provided by those tools it fits the inherent capability of our wheels which is what most of us have largely been limited to in other console games.

GrimeyDog
17-12-2015, 08:54
As a brand new V2 owner, a friend of mine pointed me to this thread to get some idea of the settings for PCars.

One thing I did notice is that you refer to some settings on the wheel that I don't see on mine. FOR, Dpr, Spr are not shown on my wheel. Mine goes straight from Dri to Brf.

I couldn't stand Tire Force at 98, just too strong. I had to put it back down in the 30's where I had it on my TX. Now I will further test to see how much more I can use since I only had a short time to run some races.

On my TX I had controller input at 2, Advanced steering on, soft steering dampening off. That's the way I ran the first couple of races. Then I decided to give your settings a shot and frankly I couldn't tell much difference at all.

On the TX I had to make the steering ratio at 7:9.1 to get the cars to rotate like I wanted them to and the rear ends still wanted to slide around a bit. But on the V2 7:9.1 seems to make the cars want to snap oversteer more. Where did you find the sweet spot regarding steering ratio? I'm going to test moving the number up maybe to around 10 and trying it again.

If your using My Tweek you dont Have to Set Steering Ratio... set the Wheel according to PDF on First Page and Drive Let the Game Control the DOR....if your on a V2 you jave the Same settings what Fw are you using???.... Also i Recommend driving Stock/ Un-Tweeked Suspesion Car First then Re Tweek the Car if Needed.

Edit: also using a V2 and My Tweek Set in Game.Master FFB to 35 set wheel FFB to 75 (Controls Constant wheel Weight) and FOR 100 (Controls the Strength of the FFB effects.. Curbs, Bumps Weight Tranfer etc.) Leave Dpr, Spr, Dri, settings at Default Values/Stock.

poirqc
17-12-2015, 11:09
I think it's an excellent approach and getting towards the methodology recommended in the official force feedback guide.

I would add a recommendation to console owners to set FFB master to the default value as this gives an accurate correlation between graph and feel at the wheel in my experience. Assuming people want to use the graph as a guide.

I also think we'd have been better served if default FFB had scoops, soft clip and relative adjust turned off. The FFB would have felt more familiar as without the shaping provided by those tools it fits the inherent capability of our wheels which is what most of us have largely been limited to in other console games.

Something handy whould be a cheatsheet for basic steps on how to get the FFB going. The offical guide already offers that, but it lacks some talk about steering gain. It's also slim on some important details.

The only jab i'll trow at SMS is that the Default FFB template is messed. Regardless of the balance of the Car FFB, it's clipping. There's too much Steering Gain.

So many idea, so little time...

Cheers!

GrimeyDog
17-12-2015, 11:38
I did some tests, i'll try to summarise what i found. There's 2 side of a coin. The first is the setting by itself. The other side is how it blend with the rest, but more importantly, how it affect drivability.

Tire Force:
The easiest way to test Tire Force is to disable everything. You put every tools at 0. You then set TF @ 100, WPS @ 0,01 and Steering Gain @ 1. This may not give a good driving experience, it's just to find the highest value a wheel can take. After that, pick you're favorite car, start a Time trial(tire already warm) and trow it into a curve, while trail breaking hard, without locking the break. This will tell you the maximum torque the car wheels will send to the FFB signal.

At first, it'll clip right away(maybe not for stronger wheels). Go reduce Tire Force until you can trow the car without clipping. This will give you the 100% Tire Force your wheel can receive, without signal compression.

This number isn't a percentage by itself. With all else being equel, for my G27, it max at TF 40. For my old MOMO, it max at TF 35. Let's say i want 50% that force, it would then be TF20 or TF 18 respectively. Keep in mind that as you change the Car FFB, the max Tire Force may change. What i mean by all this is that the MAX Tire Force, without Relative Adjusts or Soft Clipping, isn't the same from wheel to wheel.

From there, you need to make changes based on feel:



If you like the overall feel, but you have a deadzone, you may use DRR / DRF
If you want to boost low force and compress high forces, you may use Soft Clipping.
Etc...


I was about to write about Relative Adjusts, but the language barrier is stopping me. I'll kick myself and take some screenshots. It'll help me.

Thoughts?

For these Test i Set TF 1.00, Relative Adjust Gain 1.00, Relatie Adjust Bleed 0.12.
I was Only Testing The Relative Adjust Clamp i tested 50, 70, 90

IMO according to My Testing It seems There are 2 seperate FFB Stsyems at play... Not Counting the Game Master FFB because that is After the FFB Graph and i use it to only Fine Tune the Final at the Wheel Strength.

TF = Constant Wheel Weight

Relative Adjust Gain = Sets Maximum Strength For FFB Effect Forces Curbs, Bump, Weigt Tranfer etc. and any Forces that Exeed this Value above this will be Cut.

Relative Adjust Bleed = Bleeds Off FFB Torque to Create Changes in Wheel Weight... Thats How we Feel the Effects.

Relative Adjust Clamp (Most important)= Sets the Power Level For FFB Foces ... after the in Car FFB are applied.
IMO... This is Set Below the Relative adjust Gain to Compensate for FFB Spikes so that when FFB Effect Forces are applied that..Ex i use 92 that FFB Effects Stop at 92 there will still bebResidual FFB energy that will Spike but it will Not exceed the Maximum Level of 1.00 that is set by th Relative Adjust Gain that is set at 1.00 or it will be Cut/Clipped by the Reative adjust Gain... Just my Theory.

I say this because What i tested Was 50, 70, 90 with My usual in car settings 100 Masters etc.

50 the Effects were there but very Light and the Graph Stayed in the Middle of the Graph Box.

70 The Forces were Stronger than 50 But the FFB Graph Line also Moved up to what would be 70% of the FFB Box.

90 same Result as 70 Stronger FFB Forces and Line Moved up to what looked like 90% of the Box.

All of these were Tested using my Regular in Car FFB settings with 100 Masters.

The Video i Posted i used Relative Adjust Gain 50, in Car Masters 200 and my regular in Car Settings Fy 2, Fx 30, Fz 100, MZ 100..... SOP Master100, Sop Lat 10, Sop Dif 100, Sop Damp 0.
as you see the FFB Graph Line Stayed to the Middle of the Box the FFB was Ok but Still Lacking Power So i Crankes up the Game Master FFB to 100 and set the V2 Wheel FFB 100....I used My Regular Scoop Settings 68,18

Steering Gain is where all thebForces arenBlendednTogether as 1 FFB output.

Conclusion is to Reduce in Game Clipping Reduce the Relative Adjust Clamp and always Leave the Steering Gain at 1.00

TF should be adjusted according to How Much Wheel Weight you want.

Game Master FFB Should be adjusted according to the Final FFB Strength you Like at the wheel. This Can Be Fine Tuned with TF... I always set My TF to the Same Level as My Relative Adjust Gain (98) Setting... Then i Find My in Game Master FFB Level because in Game Master FFB will Not Show in the FFB Graph but if Set too High it WILL Cause at the Wheel Clipping that Can Clearly be Felt and cause your wheel to Run Hot!!!

I dont use the calculators i Tweek by Feel and adjust settings according to what feels Best.

Edit: Poirqc 50 Relative Adjust Clamp may be the Key To unlocking a Universal FFB for all Wheels When Combined with the Right Half & Full Clip Settings Because they Boost FFB Power due to the Nature of How they work... This is Definitly worth Consideration and Further Exploration.

ProDriver
17-12-2015, 11:51
I hace already read the first 5 Pages or this thread, and the last two
I have a lot of problems with that game on ps4 with the CSR wheel (not Elite), from time to time the line is lineal independent if I am on a straight or in a curb.
I have put the tyre force lower and lower but I didn't adjust the FFB never. Maybe that is the problem?? Can the problem be in the wheel?
My problem is when I am in a straight, the wheel apply a force very strong to my left or to my right, and sometimes in a corner, the wheel don't have a correct FFB. I am completely desperate, the wheel feels god in the F1 2015 game, but odd in Project Cars.

poirqc
17-12-2015, 12:49
I hace already read the first 5 Pages or this thread, and the last two
I have a lot of problems with that game on ps4 with the CSR wheel (not Elite), from time to time the line is lineal independent if I am on a straight or in a curb.
I have put the tyre force lower and lower but I didn't adjust the FFB never. Maybe that is the problem?? Can the problem be in the wheel?
My problem is when I am in a straight, the wheel apply a force very strong to my left or to my right, and sometimes in a corner, the wheel don't have a correct FFB. I am completely desperate, the wheel feels god in the F1 2015 game, but odd in Project Cars.

The first things to do would be to use the classic FFB template. The Default one comes with too much Steering Gain.

Jezza819
17-12-2015, 13:04
If your using My Tweek you dont Have to Set Steering Ratio... set the Wheel according to PDF on First Page and Drive Let the Game Control the DOR....if your on a V2 you jave the Same settings what Fw are you using???.... Also i Recommend driving Stock/ Un-Tweeked Suspesion Car First then Re Tweek the Car if Needed.

Edit: also using a V2 and My Tweek Set in Game.Master FFB to 35 set wheel FFB to 75 (Controls Constant wheel Weight) and FOR 100 (Controls the Strength of the FFB effects.. Curbs, Bumps Weight Tranfer etc.) Leave Dpr, Spr, Dri, settings at Default Values/Stock.

If I remember right the number 142 came up on the screen when I updated the wheel for the first time.

GrimeyDog
17-12-2015, 13:42
I hace already read the first 5 Pages or this thread, and the last two
I have a lot of problems with that game on ps4 with the CSR wheel (not Elite), from time to time the line is lineal independent if I am on a straight or in a curb.
I have put the tyre force lower and lower but I didn't adjust the FFB never. Maybe that is the problem?? Can the problem be in the wheel?
My problem is when I am in a straight, the wheel apply a force very strong to my left or to my right, and sometimes in a corner, the wheel don't have a correct FFB. I am completely desperate, the wheel feels god in the F1 2015 game, but odd in Project Cars.

Follow My PDF and Set your in Game Master FFB to 50 Start... Then Test Raise or Lower In Game Master FFB until you have the at the Wheel Strenth you Like... I will Post More when i get off work

GrimeyDog
17-12-2015, 13:43
Poirqc The 50 RAC Combined with the Proper Half/Full Clip settings may be the Key for a Universal FFB. Thoughts

I say This because During this Test i was able to use TF 1.00, RAG 1.00, in Car Masters 200, Steering Gain 1.00 With No Clipping and No Soft/Half Clip used.

My Concern would be to Find the Best Relative Settings Cobined with the Right Half and Full Clip settings (Half/Full Clip settings will Sharpen the Finer Details and Reguate the FFB forces to Keep them within Specs).

Test Prove that RAC Set to 50 and all other Settings at Max No Clipping was Present... Im Not worried about FFB Feel although the FFB Feel was Ok with My Regular in Car Settings...But as Long as the Relative settings are Right with the Right Soft/Half Clip settings Every 1 can Dial in the Fy, Fx, SOP etc FFB effects that Feels Right for them....What are your thoughts?

Edit: Also the Graph in the Middle Looked Great... LOL

poirqc
17-12-2015, 16:34
Poirqc The 50 RAC Combined with the Proper Half/Full Clip settings may be the Key for a Universal FFB. Thoughts

I say This because During this Test i was able to use TF 1.00, RAG 1.00, in Car Masters 200, Steering Gain 1.00 With No Clipping and No Soft/Half Clip used.

My Concern would be to Find the Best Relative Settings Cobined with the Right Half and Full Clip settings (Half/Full Clip settings will Sharpen the Finer Details and Reguate the FFB forces to Keep them within Specs).

Test Prove that RAC Set to 50 and all other Settings at Max No Clipping was Present... Im Not worried about FFB Feel although the FFB Feel was Ok with My Regular in Car Settings...But as Long as the Relative settings are Right with the Right Soft/Half Clip settings Every 1 can Dial in the Fy, Fx, SOP etc FFB effects that Feels Right for them....What are your thoughts?

Edit: Also the Graph in the Middle Looked Great... LOL

At 50 RAC, nominal forces(Straight TF) or Gain to those forces(RAs or SC) can be cranked because they'll have room to move around 50% Forces. One things that catched my eyes is that your FFB signal doesn't work for a G27. When the signal move at that frequency, with that amplitude, you can ear the motor klanking fast, but the wheel doesn't actually moves. It can't keep up with the FFB signal. It needs something a little more tamed to work. However, it works on a more potent wheel, like you mentionned.

As for Soft Clipping, based on the same Car FFB, i was able to run TF @ 170 with SC 1,70 / 3,59. Right now, i'm running TF @ 40. If i use SC, a setting of 0,5 / 1 will give something similar, overall wise, than 170 / 1,70 / 3,59.

To summarise, you're right that anti-clipping(or signal shaping) tools needs to be aligned with the TF / Car FFB.



Tune the Car FFB to taste.(With everything disabled except TF and SG)
Adjust Tire Force to use the whole range.
Use RAs or SC to taste.
Use Deadzones & Scoops if needed, to fine tune.
Use Steering Gain, Master FFB or windows drivers to lower the overall forces if it's too strong, to taste.


Voil!

ProDriver
17-12-2015, 17:41
Follow My PDF and Set your in Game Master FFB to 50 Start... Then Test Raise or Lower In Game Master FFB until you have the at the Wheel Strenth you Like... I will Post More when i get off work

Thank you mate, I will try and comment, I was looking for your videos and your pdf, the settings in the wheel I have like you, but the ffb I have at 100. With this value and the tyre force at 60, I needed to put the ffb in the wheel at 20, now I will put this value at 100, and the master ffb at 50. And the rest of values as a default settings. Then I will check the graphic

inthebagbud
17-12-2015, 18:38
Hmmm... I Will Give that a Try and post what Result i Get... Im about to Go to bed for the Night i wll get back to the FFB when i get off tomorrow... Your English is Very Good your points are usually Very Clearly Explained... Cheers....Yes i was mainly Sampling RAG at 50 i changed a Few other things to get Good Feel... Id Have to set it back up to get exact settings but im off to sleep Now 4am wake up for me.

Ok I can confirm I am not going mad and its not my wheel, thank god,

It is SOP setting.

Ever since reading bmanics thread I have been running without sop and it is this that is providing the intense road feel, basically at high in car master settings you can feel every change no matter how slight in the tyres which mimics the changes in the yellow circles round the tyres in the hud.

At high levels it can be unnerving but now I understand what it is I want to keep it but just a little lower



If you introduce SOP it basically dumbs this feeling down

Jezza819
18-12-2015, 04:33
Since I had not calibrated my wheel yet I gave it a shot and that was a big mistake. Now it's like it's not connected at all. So I guess my question now is how do you uncalibrate a wheel? It was not great like it was but this is terrible now.

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-12-2015, 05:24
Since I had not calibrated my wheel yet I gave it a shot and that was a big mistake. Now it's like it's not connected at all. So I guess my question now is how do you uncalibrate a wheel? It was not great like it was but this is terrible now. you have to see if your global settings changed. I recalbrate wheel almost everytime there is a update never have a problem you might have went to default by it self or you did it not knowing i have done that before.

I think linkage stiffness at 2.0 is a good thing damping 0 test it grimey tell me what you think i have the scale at 0.01 didn't want to go to crazy with that yet

GrimeyDog
18-12-2015, 11:55
My thoughts on the RAC Test Video i made after More testing.

Video Shows and Proves that the Relative Adjust Clamp is the True FFB "***Effects***" Power Level/ Volume Control (ex:Curbs Bumps etc) for the Relative adjust Setting...for testing i used RAG 1.00... RAC was Tested 50, 70, 90... at 50 the FFB Graph Line Stayed in the Middle of the FFB Graph Line Box and was very active but the FFB at the wheel was weaker... at 70 the Line Moved to what seems to be 70% of the Box Value and FFB at the wheel was Stronger... Same exact results for the Test at 90 just higher Graph Line and More FFB power at the Wheel.

Very interesting Result was RAC at 50 i was able to use TF 100, RAG 1.00, Steering Gain 1.00, and in Car Masters 200 with No FFB Clipping in Graph or at the Wheel...The FFB in the wheel Felt Good but was a Tad bit weaker than My FFB setting i usualy use... It still Had Full Dynamic Range just less Power.

Conclusion is its worth looking into... My thoughts are that 50 RAC combined with Half/Full Clip maybe of some use in Finding the Final FFB solution for all wheels... Because Half/Full Clip will Boost or Clip FFB Forces to keep FFB within specs it can be used to Fine Tune the RAC to match FFB to each wheels specs to Avoid Clipping and Bring out the Best FFB feel.

The In Car Settings Fy, Fx etc i did Not test beyond Moving My in Car Masters to 200... My Main Focus was to see the effects of RAC with 50, 70,90. so im Pretty sure if the RAC set to 50 can Handle 200 in Car Masters wiith No Clipping and it Had Reasonably Good FFB Feel...(I didn't try to fine tune it I was just board and just testing it was almost sleepy time...lol) that RAC when Properly set combined with Half/Full Clipping and reasonable in car Masters will Handle all FFB with No Clipping to have Good FFB for all Wheels

My Theory
RAG Sets Maximum FFB Power Level and will Clip any FFB that Spikes above that Maximum set point.

RAC sets the FFB Effects ex: Curbs, Bumps etc Power Level

TF sets Constant Wheel Weight

Steering Gain Blends all FFB together as 1 for Final Power output

Game Master FFB for Console sets at the wheel FFB Strength... PC i cant Comment on.*
the Video is in my thread if you care to Check it... its some where in the last 2 pages.. thread link is in my signature.
What are your your Thoughs on this

Jezza819
18-12-2015, 12:28
you have to see if your global settings changed. I recalbrate wheel almost everytime there is a update never have a problem you might have went to default by it self or you did it not knowing i have done that before.

I think linkage stiffness at 2.0 is a good thing damping 0 test it grimey tell me what you think i have the scale at 0.01 didn't want to go to crazy with that yet

I looked at the global settings and they were unchanged. I went back into a known very good feeling Jack Spade numbers car that I had driven before the calibration and it was now loosey goosey like everything else.

GrimeyDog
18-12-2015, 13:18
I will Check and Test it... When i get off work... i have linkage setting all Off or Lowest settings

GrimeyDog
18-12-2015, 13:21
I looked at the global settings and they were unchanged. I went back into a known very good feeling Jack Spade numbers car that I had driven before the calibration and it was now loosey goosey like everything else.

you may Have to do a Total Delete and Fresh instal
I delete Cloud/Hard Drive Game save Data after every update... its the only way i can Guarentee that i get the FFB back to the Norm. The New Tire Model is Very Bad... Cars Slide alot and you cant Keep Heat in the Tures... I dont Like it.

LordDRIFT
18-12-2015, 14:55
TLDR: Did 7.0 mess up FFB again?

poirqc
18-12-2015, 15:00
My Theory
RAG Sets Maximum FFB Power Level and will Clip any FFB that Spikes above that Maximum set point.

RAC sets the FFB Effects ex: Curbs, Bumps etc Power Level

TF sets Constant Wheel Weight

Steering Gain Blends all FFB together as 1 for Final Power output

Game Master FFB for Console sets at the wheel FFB Strength... PC i cant Comment on.*
the Video is in my thread if you care to Check it... its some where in the last 2 pages.. thread link is in my signature.
What are your your Thoughs on this

I think this is the job of RAC. RAG will not set the MAX FFB Power lvl. You can see that by disabling RAB and RAC. Put RAG at 0,33. The FFB will still go above 0,33


TLDR: Did 7.0 mess up FFB again?

It's still fine, don't worry :)

LordDRIFT
18-12-2015, 15:23
It's still fine, don't worry :)

gracias

GrimeyDog
18-12-2015, 16:21
I think this is the job of RAC. RAG will not set the MAX FFB Power lvl. You can see that by disabling RAB and RAC. Put RAG at 0,33. The FFB will still go above 0,33

When part of the system is disabled the other parts will Have Free Reign and do what they please to do... The other systems are Not in place to Regulate or Cormmunicate On or Off to Regulate power levels.

According to The test RAC sets the Power Level/Volume Control... which is why at 50 the Graph stays in the Middle of the FFB Box and did move up Accordingly to 70, 90% of the Box ... so it would seem to Reason the RAG would be the intended Maximum Power Level and any thing that spikes above that RAG set limit will be Cut/Clipped by the RAG... The FFB can Not Have Free Reign and be allowed to Spike Freely with out a intended or Pre set Cut off point... With the option to Not use any Half/Full Clipping (Which i dont use) There Must be another option to Regulate the set RAC power or the spikes can Rise to a undetermined point.

Edit: I dunno I wouldnt be suprised that maybe some of the settings are Mis Labeled... Seems Backwards but things just are Not adding up ...Like why is the RAG set Higher than the RAC if the RAC is indeed the FFB cut Off control... and RAG is Set Higher Than RAC with default settings... I Dunno... PCars FFB is a Paradox!!!

poirqc
18-12-2015, 18:16
When part of the system is disabled the other parts will Have Free Reign and do what they please to do... The other systems are Not in place to Regulate or Cormmunicate On or Off to Regulate power levels.

According to The test RAC sets the Power Level/Volume Control... which is why at 50 the Graph stays in the Middle of the FFB Box and did move up Accordingly to 70, 90% of the Box ... so it would seem to Reason the RAG would be the intended Maximum Power Level and any thing that spikes above that RAG set limit will be Cut/Clipped by the RAG... The FFB can Not Have Free Reign and be allowed to Spike Freely with out a intended or Pre set Cut off point... With the option to Not use any Half/Full Clipping (Which i dont use) There Must be another option to Regulate the set RAC power or the spikes can Rise to a undetermined point.

Edit: I dunno I wouldnt be suprised that maybe some of the settings are Mis Labeled... Seems Backwards but things just are Not adding up ...Like why is the RAG set Higher than the RAC if the RAC is indeed the FFB cut Off control... and RAG is Set Higher Than RAC with default settings... I Dunno... PCars FFB is a Paradox!!!

I mostly agree with your RAC explanation, but i was talking about RA Gain. :)

Relative Adjusts is a signal shaping tool that affect the torque deltas. It's not needed to have those deltas. They come from the physics. In various systems, the Gain is just that, an amplification or attenuation of a signal.

RAs will work in 2 scenarios. To shape the signal or the shape the signal while preventing clipping.

You explained well the 2nd one, when RAC come into play.

ProDriver
19-12-2015, 06:52
I had been doing test last night, even I had adjust de FFB to 10 (not 100) and TF to 10 as well, and the FFB of the wheel to 20, and the graphics continuous showing me clipping.

https://youtu.be/aEYhFyiuQtI

That is completely annoying...

rams1de
19-12-2015, 07:00
I had been doing test last night, even I had adjust de FFB to 10 (not 100) and TF to 10 as well, and the FFB of the wheel to 20, and the graphics continuous showing me clipping.

https://youtu.be/aEYhFyiuQtI

That is completely annoying...

Check steering gain. The default value is too high, reduce it 1.0 and re-adjust tyre force and force feedback.

If you are still having problems, post your Soft Clip and Relative Adjust if you have changed them.

ProDriver
19-12-2015, 10:05
I have already reinstalled the game, I'll check to put all the Ffb in 10, and the steering gain to 1 and see the telemetry to check If I continuous having clipping.

Thank you guys!!!

poirqc
19-12-2015, 11:35
This is what i wanted to say About Relative Adjust Gain:

224158

I got those readings when throwing a CTR Ruf into the first curve @ Olton Park, Foster, in Time Trial. It starts with warm tires.

As you can see, regardless of the attenuation of RAG, the signal stay in the same range. Even when it's almost disabled(0,01), the signal goes full reach. When i used RAG @ 2, witch is 2 times more, i didn't need to lower TF by 2 to say in the same range.

From the guide:

RelativeGain (​ Relative Adjust Gain​ ) This is the scaling on the amount of calculated torque change that is applied. 1.0 is the intuitively correct value. 0.0 turns this component off.

We didn't really talked about RAB, but if you're using Relative Adjusts, put at least 0,01 RAB. If not the wheel will decenter itself.


Cheers!

Sankyo
19-12-2015, 12:52
Since I had not calibrated my wheel yet I gave it a shot and that was a big mistake. Now it's like it's not connected at all. So I guess my question now is how do you uncalibrate a wheel? It was not great like it was but this is terrible now.

In principle resetting the controller 'uncalibrates' it.

morpwr
19-12-2015, 14:13
I had been doing test last night, even I had adjust de FFB to 10 (not 100) and TF to 10 as well, and the FFB of the wheel to 20, and the graphics continuous showing me clipping.

https://youtu.be/aEYhFyiuQtI

That is completely annoying...

Anything that is set too high can make it clip so depending on where everything else is set that's possible. One thing I did catch the other night while testing soft clipping is it can clip and not show. Had shown no clipping at all but it felt weird so I turned down the gain and now it was obvious it was clipping big flat spot where it got chopped. The other thing I'm finding out is you get tricked into setting things too high when you should have gone lower. Things get covered up when set too high. The wheel will get too heavy and not be able to reproduce the lower forces.

Jezza819
19-12-2015, 17:50
In principle resetting the controller 'uncalibrates' it.

Yeah a friend told me to reset from the control menu and that fixed it.

GrimeyDog
19-12-2015, 19:04
This is what i wanted to say About Relative Adjust Gain:

224158

I got those readings when throwing a CTR Ruf into the first curve @ Olton Park, Foster, in Time Trial. It starts with warm tires.

As you can see, regardless of the attenuation of RAG, the signal stay in the same range. Even when it's almost disabled(0,01), the signal goes full reach. When i used RAG @ 2, witch is 2 times more, i didn't need to lower TF by 2 to say in the same range.

From the guide:


We didn't really talked about RAB, but if you're using RAs, put at least 0,01. If not the wheel will decenter itself.


Cheers!

Thanks it Makes Sense Now... The RAB im Clear on.
The Rabbit Hole Keeps Getting Deeper and Deeper... The FFB Paradox coninues.

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-12-2015, 19:43
To me the bleed needs to work better if to high it don't feel right but to low it don't feel right either I think it needs some tweeking IMO. It is crazy that we play with FFB still since day one lol 70 percent or more are not happy with what we have. but again the in car settings and tuning a car will make things change too that is what we have to remember and I think a lot of people go straight to calibration first then you make it worse than if you just left it alone. I'm guilty of that myself working on that lol

ProDriver
19-12-2015, 19:44
Which one is RAs?
You have RAG, RAB and RAC
I'm lost and I have to translate into Spanish menu cuz I can't put in in English :(

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-12-2015, 19:55
Which one is RAs?
You have RAG, RAB and RAC
I'm lost and I have to translate into Spanish menu cuz I can't put in in English :(
relative adjust gain, relative adjust bleed, relative adjust clamp RAG, RAB, RAC,

ProDriver
19-12-2015, 20:51
I Know that terms (RAG, RAB and RAC)
But, poirqc said before that RAs is the responsible of the losses centring wheel, and I thing that this could be my problem.

poirqc
19-12-2015, 20:53
To me the bleed needs to work better if to high it don't feel right but to low it don't feel right either I think it needs some tweeking IMO. It is crazy that we play with FFB still since day one lol 70 percent or more are not happy with what we have. but again the in car settings and tuning a car will make things change too that is what we have to remember and I think a lot of people go straight to calibration first then you make it worse than if you just left it alone. I'm guilty of that myself working on that lol

What's funny is that as i test the global parameters and try to understand them, i can't settle on a setting. There's always tradeoffs...

What i do understand now tho, is that forces of the wheels make the biggest part of the FFB. Rear forces Vs Front forces. I wish balancing all that was that easy. Maybe it's just me! :)

Beside dialing the basics(global side), it's probably better to spend time in the Car FFB.


I Know that terms (RAG, RAB and RAC)
But, poirqc said before that RAs is the responsible of the losses centring wheel, and I thing that this could be my problem.

If you use Relative Adjusts, RAB needs to be at least 0,01. I'm not really saying it. The official guide is. ;)

When i say RAs, it's just to talk about the tool as a whole. When it's about specifics, i replace the s with G B C. I reread my sentence. Yeah, it's somewhat confusing.

wahwah
19-12-2015, 23:50
Anything that is set too high can make it clip so depending on where everything else is set that's possible. One thing I did catch the other night while testing soft clipping is it can clip and not show. Had shown no clipping at all but it felt weird so I turned down the gain and now it was obvious it was clipping big flat spot where it got chopped. The other thing I'm finding out is you get tricked into setting things too high when you should have gone lower. Things get covered up when set too high. The wheel will get too heavy and not be able to reproduce the lower forces.

This is also the case when the FFB master is set too high on consoles for the particular wheel. We are now hearing cases of Thrustmaster telling T300 owners that the FFB master is not recommended to be run past its default http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43135-Are-people-still-having-issues-with-Thrustmaster-wheels/page3 (post 27), which is in keeping with Tim Mann's (SMS Console Lead) statement that the FFB master should be set appropriate to the specific wheel on consoles, as opposed to the suggestions from PC users who then have the further final output control in their software Control Panel. Since the FFB master comes after the FFB monitor in the chain, there is no way to monitor its affect via telemetry. In fact, telemetry could be showing signals close to clipping but not over, and yet a boost to the FFB master will actually be clipping at the wheel.

Telemetry only measures the forces between Tire Force and Steering Gain in the signal chain, which on consoles roughly goes Tire Model > Tire Force > In Car FFB > Dynamics (RG, SC, etc) > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor (Telemetry) > FFB Master.

poirqc
20-12-2015, 01:59
This is also the case when the FFB master is set too high on consoles for the particular wheel. We are now hearing cases of Thrustmaster telling T300 owners that the FFB master is not recommended to be run past its default http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43135-Are-people-still-having-issues-with-Thrustmaster-wheels/page3 (post 27), which is in keeping with Tim Mann's (SMS Console Lead) statement that the FFB master should be set appropriate to the specific wheel on consoles, as opposed to the suggestions from PC users who then have the further final output control in their software Control Panel. Since the FFB master comes after the FFB monitor in the chain, there is no way to monitor its affect via telemetry. In fact, telemetry could be showing signals close to clipping but not over, and yet a boost to the FFB master will actually be clipping at the wheel.

Telemetry only measures the forces between Tire Force and Steering Gain in the signal chain, which on consoles roughly goes Tire Model > Tire Force > In Car FFB > Dynamics (RG, SC, etc) > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor (Telemetry) > FFB Master.

I did a test recently (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1181984&viewfull=1#post1181984).

If someone, with a given wheel, runs it at 75% on a PC, it would make sense to translate that setting to the FFB master. From my pov, it's better to adjust the "volume" at the end of the chain. However, i must say that it's only a theory because i didn't test it on a console.

GrimeyDog
20-12-2015, 13:46
What i Have Found with Game Master FFB is that it shound Not be Used at 100%... You should Go with The Recomended settings or Test your wheel to Find FFB sweet Spot... When i used 100% Master Game FFB my V2 used to Operate at 125F -130F ....Now i use 35 in Game Master FFB and the Wheel is Just as Strong with even More Subtle Road Feel Detail and Runs at 95F - 100F.

morpwr
20-12-2015, 14:48
This is also the case when the FFB master is set too high on consoles for the particular wheel. We are now hearing cases of Thrustmaster telling T300 owners that the FFB master is not recommended to be run past its default http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43135-Are-people-still-having-issues-with-Thrustmaster-wheels/page3 (post 27), which is in keeping with Tim Mann's (SMS Console Lead) statement that the FFB master should be set appropriate to the specific wheel on consoles, as opposed to the suggestions from PC users who then have the further final output control in their software Control Panel. Since the FFB master comes after the FFB monitor in the chain, there is no way to monitor its affect via telemetry. In fact, telemetry could be showing signals close to clipping but not over, and yet a boost to the FFB master will actually be clipping at the wheel.

Telemetry only measures the forces between Tire Force and Steering Gain in the signal chain, which on consoles roughly goes Tire Model > Tire Force > In Car FFB > Dynamics (RG, SC, etc) > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor (Telemetry) > FFB Master.

Ive wondered about the 75 for a base setting since the beginning and more so lately. I didn't think sms could have been as far off as everyone thought just we didn't understand what to do with the settings and are just finally starting to figure it out. I can sort of see why sms stopped trying to give input on this in a lot of cases we just didn't listen. Now that I do have a good setting to back to maybe ill revisit the 75 ffb and see what kind of a mess I can make. Probably wont be as bad as I think if it works how I think it does. Should allow me to up the settings for gain and tf without getting a super heavy wheel I think. Possibly better ffb? Back to hot lapping the rug gt3.lol

rams1de
20-12-2015, 19:42
Ive wondered about the 75 for a base setting since the beginning and more so lately. I didn't think sms could have been as far off as everyone thought just we didn't understand what to do with the settings and are just finally starting to figure it out. I can sort of see why sms stopped trying to give input on this in a lot of cases we just didn't listen. Now that I do have a good setting to back to maybe ill revisit the 75 ffb and see what kind of a mess I can make. Probably wont be as bad as I think if it works how I think it does. Should allow me to up the settings for gain and tf without getting a super heavy wheel I think. Possibly better ffb? Back to hot lapping the rug gt3.lol

With 75 FFB on the T300 you should find you can trust the graph to indicate clipping. It's particularly helpful when playing with Soft Clip Half Input and Relative Adjust Clamp which can create some ridiculously strong force.

morpwr
20-12-2015, 22:48
With 75 FFB on the T300 you should find you can trust the graph to indicate clipping. It's particularly helpful when playing with Soft Clip Half Input and Relative Adjust Clamp which can create some ridiculously strong force.

Funny part is I thought I had ffb at 100 since I finally got what I think is really good ffb and I must have been playing with settings because its at 75. Actually 75 for ffb tf and gain. I haven't had any luck with soft clipping although it does do some good things. Just couldn't find a good balance. I really believe at this point we just cannot use ffb at 100 on consoles because of the extra profiler screen pc has that we don't.

GrimeyDog
21-12-2015, 03:13
Funny part is I thought I had ffb at 100 since I finally got what I think is really good ffb and I must have been playing with settings because its at 75. Actually 75 for ffb tf and gain. I haven't had any luck with soft clipping although it does do some good things. Just couldn't find a good balance. I really believe at this point we just cannot use ffb at 100 on consoles because of the extra profiler screen pc has that we don't.

You dont Need 100% Game Master FFB... Turn the Game Master FFB Down until you Have Desired at the Wheel FFB Strenght that you Like and Leave it there... With My V2 i use only 35% Game Master FFB any More than that the Wheel starts getting Heavy and i Loose Subtle FFB Detail...and my Wheel FFB is Very strong... I Know thats what Has been Said and Suggested but The Main Guy or People that say that Dont Even own a Consoles to Test and See if you.Really Need 100 in Game Master FFB... In Game.Master FFB is After the Graph so its effects Cant be Seen but it can cause at the wheel Clipping that can Clearly be Felt... In Game Master FFB is seperate from all the FFB sertings it should be used as a at the Wheel FFB/Volume Control only.... SMS has Never put out a Clear FFB guide or Blue Print to my Knowledge.

ProDriver
21-12-2015, 07:54
So, RAs are the ones which appears on telemetry and the ones which shows clipping?
Tonight I will restart the game from zero, I will put the FFB on 20, the TF on 20 as well and the RAs lower than default. And, in the wheel the ffb to 20, because what I want more is that the graphic don't show me a linear graphic even when I do zigzags on straights.

morpwr
21-12-2015, 10:51
So, RAs are the ones which appears on telemetry and the ones which shows clipping?
Tonight I will restart the game from zero, I will put the FFB on 20, the TF on 20 as well and the RAs lower than default. And, in the wheel the ffb to 20, because what I want more is that the graphic don't show me a linear graphic even when I do zigzags on straights.

What wheel are you using? Ra,soft clipping,tf and gain will all show on the monitor. I would use the default settings to start. Get the wheel weight you want with ffb master,tf and gain then tweak it from there. For the t300 75 for all three seems to give a good range and balance.

morpwr
21-12-2015, 11:09
You dont Need 100% Game Master FFB... Turn the Game Master FFB Down until you Have Desired at the Wheel FFB Strenght that you Like and Leave it there... With My V2 i use only 35% Game Master FFB any More than that the Wheel starts getting Heavy and i Loose Subtle FFB Detail...and my Wheel FFB is Very strong... I Know thats what Has been Said and Suggested but The Main Guy or People that say that Dont Even own a Consoles to Test and See if you.Really Need 100 in Game Master FFB... In Game.Master FFB is After the Graph so its effects Cant be Seen but it can cause at the wheel Clipping that can Clearly be Felt... In Game Master FFB is seperate from all the FFB sertings it should be used as a at the Wheel FFB/Volume Control only.... SMS has Never put out a Clear FFB guide or Blue Print to my Knowledge.

Grimey,
I will say I do like his classic tweak but that's just my taste. With a good wheel setup you can feel everything and the wheel does what its supposed to when its supposed to. But with that being said I can say 100% on consoles does not work unless your wheel has the extra profiler screen like pc. It causes you to turn everything down to compensate especially with the t300. You can see it in the ffb monitor you loose all the range set at 100 ffb master. Biggest problem I see at this point is having the wheel set wrong does cause issues some complain about. High speed shake for example too strong ffb makes it worse or at least exaggerates it. If enough of us that have spent the last 6 months playing with this and keep continuing to share what we have found regardless of it being right or wrong I'm sure those coming to the game will have a much easier time. At this point its actually not too hard to know what to change to get the desired effect. But the key is getting ffb master,tf,and gain set right first anything out of order or wrong and you just chase yourself with the other settings.

GrimeyDog
21-12-2015, 11:09
So, RAs are the ones which appears on telemetry and the ones which shows clipping?
Tonight I will restart the game from zero, I will put the FFB on 20, the TF on 20 as well and the RAs lower than default. And, in the wheel the ffb to 20, because what I want more is that the graphic don't show me a linear graphic even when I do zigzags on straights.

Yes thats Correct... the Steering Gain also shows on the FFB Graph it is where the FFB forces are blended together as 1 and sets the Final FFB Strength before the its sent to the wheel... What wheel and system are you using.

ProDriver
21-12-2015, 13:42
Fanatec CSR (no Elite) with Clubsport V1 in PS4 (of course)

GrimeyDog
21-12-2015, 14:10
Grimey,
I will say I do like his classic tweak but that's just my taste. With a good wheel setup you can feel everything and the wheel does what its supposed to when its supposed to. But with that being said I can say 100% on consoles does not work unless your wheel has the extra profiler screen like pc. It causes you to turn everything down to compensate especially with the t300. You can see it in the ffb monitor you loose all the range set at 100 ffb master. Biggest problem I see at this point is having the wheel set wrong does cause issues some complain about. High speed shake for example too strong ffb makes it worse or at least exaggerates it. If enough of us that have spent the last 6 months playing with this and keep continuing to share what we have found regardless of it being right or wrong I'm sure those coming to the game will have a much easier time. At this point its actually not too hard to know what to change to get the desired effect. But the key is getting ffb master,tf,and gain set right first anything out of order or wrong and you just chase yourself with the other settings.

According to My latest Test you should try TF 98 and Steering Gain at 1.00....Then Reduce Relative adjust Clamp to 85 or so to Start... Test and Check the Wheel Feel and FFB Graph then increase or Derease the Relative adjust Clamp until you get desired Results... You will Not Lose any Dynamc Range of FFB this way.... Relative adjust Clamp Reduces the Power Level of the FFB before the Steering Gain....Steering Gain = Final FFB Power Output after all Forces are Combined if the RAG is set Right IMO you will Not Need to Change this ... This will allow you to adjust your TF(Wheel weight) to your desired Wheel weight without Losing Dynamic Range... Try it and See... IMO Most of the FFB Graph Clipping Issues can be solved by First Setting the RAG to a Propper Level... Then adjust TF ONLY if Needed.

The at the Wheel Clipping(It will Not Show in FFB Graph but can be Clearly Felt in te wheel) can be solved by Finding Game Master FFB for your wheel... Just set it to yhe desred at the wheel FFB level you like and forget it.

CreamyDischarge
21-12-2015, 16:06
According to My latest Test you should try TF 98 and Steering Gain at 1.00....Then Reduce Relative adjust Clamp to 85 or so to Start... Test and Check the Wheel Feel and FFB Graph then increase or Derease the Relative adjust Clamp until you get desired Results... You will Not Lose any Dynamc Range of FFB this way.... Relative adjust Clamp Reduces the Power Level of the FFB before the Steering Gain....Steering Gain = Final FFB Power Output after all Forces are Combined if the RAG is set Right IMO you will Not Need to Change this ... This will allow you to adjust your TF(Wheel weight) to your desired Wheel weight without Losing Dynamic Range... Try it and See... IMO Most of the FFB Graph Clipping Issues can be solved by First Setting the RAG to a Propper Level... Then adjust TF ONLY if Needed.

The at the Wheel Clipping(It will Not Show in FFB Graph but can be Clearly Felt in te wheel) can be solved by Finding Game Master FFB for your wheel... Just set it to yhe desred at the wheel FFB level you like and forget it.

I'm using TF 75/100 (depending on car)
RAG 115
RAB 10
RAC 85

Steering Gain 125/100 depending on TF (75 TF 125 Gain) and adjusting accordingly/linked.

We find this works better than the defaults for that JS provides and we blind tested this on our league at the weekend and ever person preferred those above, to the JSs defaults and in game defaults.

Little to no clipping (maybe if you hit a land mine, but none that we encountered on track)

Might be worth looking into further, linking TF to Steering gain, and the RAC to the RAB has worked really well for us.

Keeping TF and Steering Gain linked and also bleed / clamp / gain linked mathematically has worked for us :yes:

morpwr
22-12-2015, 11:34
According to My latest Test you should try TF 98 and Steering Gain at 1.00....Then Reduce Relative adjust Clamp to 85 or so to Start... Test and Check the Wheel Feel and FFB Graph then increase or Derease the Relative adjust Clamp until you get desired Results... You will Not Lose any Dynamc Range of FFB this way.... Relative adjust Clamp Reduces the Power Level of the FFB before the Steering Gain....Steering Gain = Final FFB Power Output after all Forces are Combined if the RAG is set Right IMO you will Not Need to Change this ... This will allow you to adjust your TF(Wheel weight) to your desired Wheel weight without Losing Dynamic Range... Try it and See... IMO Most of the FFB Graph Clipping Issues can be solved by First Setting the RAG to a Propper Level... Then adjust TF ONLY if Needed.

The at the Wheel Clipping(It will Not Show in FFB Graph but can be Clearly Felt in te wheel) can be solved by Finding Game Master FFB for your wheel... Just set it to yhe desred at the wheel FFB level you like and forget it.

Grimey,
I tried this last night. I didn't think it was too bad actually really similar to my 75 ffb tf and gain. But the one thing I noticed was the notch right at the apex of a corner. Like you hit ice for a second. I ve got this before when playing with the ffb. It shouldn't be there. But I did turn decent times with it close to my usual ones. Maybe i need to play with it some more but after 2 hours of tweaking on it I went back to my old settings. I just couldn't get a balanced feel with the wheel weight,braking and bumps. I do feel at this point sms wasn't that far off with the default settings. They had too much to loose giving us settings that where way off. Some help understanding all of it or settings they had used in testing might have been really helpful:rolleyes: but we are finally starting to understand it I think. Most of the settings allow you to tweak certain forces to your personal taste. Like rac raising it will increase the effect of braking to a point and so does raising rag you can exaggerate the effect but it also changes other things with it so youre back to the balancing act with forces.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 11:52
Grimey,
I tried this last night. I didn't think it was too bad actually really similar to my 75 ffb tf and gain. But the one thing I noticed was the notch right at the apex of a corner. Like you hit ice for a second. I ve got this before when playing with the ffb. It shouldn't be there. But I did turn decent times with it close to my usual ones. Maybe i need to play with it some more but after 2 hours of tweaking on it I went back to my old settings. I just couldn't get a balanced feel with the wheel weight,braking and bumps. I do feel at this point sms wasn't that far off with the default settings. They had too much to loose giving us settings that where way off. Some help understanding all of it or settings they had used in testing might have been really helpful:rolleyes: but we are finally starting to understand it I think. Most of the settings allow you to tweak certain forces to your personal taste. Like rac raising it will increase the effect of braking to a point and so does raising rag you can exaggerate the effect but it also changes other things with it so youre back to the balancing act with forces.

You Have to take time and Fine tune it... The Benefit will be that you will be able to Use the same FFB for All Cars... The only setting you will have to Change is the MZ.... I only change MZ below GT3 because those cars dont Have Sharp Snappy and Direct Steering because they have more body Roll and Flex.... It takes just a Few laps to set the MZ to Feel Natural to the Car.... its worth a few hours of Tweeking and investigating... I Turn No Setting above 100 its all about Balancing the settings right.... Ex: If you set TF to 75 and Steering gain to 125 all you have really done was cut the power 1 place and put it back with another setting. Took a Long Whileto find the balance but my wheel feels Great and from car to Car Track to Track 1 FFB for all Cars and Tracks...IMO FFB is about Road Feel and Should Not be used as a Suspension Tweek Substitute.

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-12-2015, 12:00
But you have to go back to the in car FFB settings after you do tweek a car if your not happy with how it is feeling it will change. After your calibration is good enough to your liking

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 12:02
Grimey,
I tried this last night. I didn't think it was too bad actually really similar to my 75 ffb tf and gain. But the one thing I noticed was the notch right at the apex of a corner. Like you hit ice for a second. I ve got this before when playing with the ffb. It shouldn't be there. But I did turn decent times with it close to my usual ones. Maybe i need to play with it some more but after 2 hours of tweaking on it I went back to my old settings. I just couldn't get a balanced feel with the wheel weight,braking and bumps. I do feel at this point sms wasn't that far off with the default settings. They had too much to loose giving us settings that where way off. Some help understanding all of it or settings they had used in testing might have been really helpful:rolleyes: but we are finally starting to understand it I think. Most of the settings allow you to tweak certain forces to your personal taste. Like rac raising it will increase the effect of braking to a point and so does raising rag you can exaggerate the effect but it also changes other things with it so youre back to the balancing act with forces.

You Have to take time and Fine tune it... The Benefit will be that you will be able to Use the same FFB for All Cars... The only setting you will have to Change is the MZ.... I only change MZ below GT3 because those cars dont Have Sharp Snappy and Direct Steering because they have more body Roll and Flex.... It takes just a Few laps to set the MZ to Feel Natural to the Car.... its worth a few hours of Tweeking and investigating... I Turn No Setting above 100 its all about Balancing the settings right.... Ex: If you set TF to 75 and Steering gain to 125 all you have really done was cut the power 1 place and put it back with another setting. Took a Long Whileto find the balance but my wheel feels Great and from car to Car Track to Track 1 FFB for all Cars and Tracks...IMO FFB is about Road Feel and Should Not be used as a Suspension Tweek Substitute.

Edit: I also find that setting TF and RAG at same Value with Steering Gain at 1.00 is a Good Starting point for Twweking.... Now that we Know RAC will + or - The overal FFB with No Dynamic FFB Loss it maybe possible that once you set the RAC to the Right level for your wheel that you may Not Have to Reduce TF or Stering Gain because you can + or - your at the Whel Strength Level with the Game Master FFB.

With My V2 and TX458 i use TF 98, RAC 92, Steering Gain 1.00
Game Master FFB 35 for V2 wheel

TX458 Game Master FFB 65(XB1) this should work for T300 also on PS4 with my Tweek.

inthebagbud
22-12-2015, 12:06
Grimey,
But the one thing I noticed was the notch right at the apex of a corner. Like you hit ice for a second. I ve got this before when playing with the ffb. It shouldn't be there. But I did turn decent times with it close to my usual ones.

with this feeling do you get a large bump in the ffb graph ?

If we are talking about the same thing i associate this with reaching maximum tyre grip and momentarily exceeding it?

Haiden
22-12-2015, 12:11
You Have to take time and Fine tune it... The Benefit will be that you will be able to Use the same FFB for All Cars... The only setting you will have to Change is the MZ.... I only change MZ below GT3 because those cars dont Have Sharp Snappy and Direct Steering because they have more body Roll and Flex.... It takes just a Few laps to set the MZ to Feel Natural to the Car.... its worth a few hours of Tweeking and investigating... I Turn No Setting above 100 its all about Balancing the settings right.... Ex: If you set TF to 75 and Steering gain to 125 all you have really done was cut the power 1 place and put it back with another setting. Took a Long Whileto find the balance but my wheel feels Great and from car to Car Track to Track 1 FFB for all Cars and Tracks...IMO FFB is about Road Feel and Should Not be used as a Suspension Tweek Substitute.

I don't think Steering Gain is a good slider to use for strength control. It wasn't available until a few version down the line, and I think SMS only threw it in, so console users would have a way of attenuating the TF/FF force, similar to PC and CSW users do outside of the game. But because it wasn't meant for that, it needs to be adjusted sparingly, because it's actually more related to steering than FFB strength. To see what I mean, just turn it down really low, and then see how your steering is affected. It will be sluggish and slow, like your steering ratio is off. Once I discovered that, I stopped messing with it and just keep it at 1.0.

Also... although TF, FF, and SG can affect the strength of the wheel. I don't believe they are equal in their affect, or that they have a one-to-one relationship--meaning, cutting one by X amount and increasing another by the same amount doesn't equate to a wash/cancelling out and could result in a different feel, because each affects the FFB differently.

morpwr
22-12-2015, 13:27
with this feeling do you get a large bump in the ffb graph ?

If we are talking about the same thing i associate this with reaching maximum tyre grip and momentarily exceeding it?

Yes sort of. If the wheel is set right you can feel grip all the way through the corner and its obvious when you are exceeding it. When you feel that dead spot for a second its the wheel not reproducing something.

inthebagbud
22-12-2015, 14:02
Yes sort of. When you feel that dead spot for a second its the wheel not reproducing something.

interesting so do you think its a bit like the signal being clipped, but not being shown on the ffb graph.

I can reproduce the effect easily on outlon park with the ruf and know exactly where it will occur but never thought of it as something that shouldn't be there as I see it represented in the graph.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 14:08
with this feeling do you get a large bump in the ffb graph ?

If we are talking about the same thing i associate this with reaching maximum tyre grip and momentarily exceeding it?

That Could Very well be the Case or Depending on Track and Corner Maybe a Wheel is Lifting off the Ground.

morpwr
22-12-2015, 14:10
interesting so do you think its a bit like the signal being clipped, but not being shown on the ffb graph.

I can reproduce the effect easily on outlon park with the ruf and know exactly where it will occur but never thought of it as something that shouldn't be there as I see it represented in the graph.

It can still clip at the wheel and not show in the graph as clipping if the wheel cant reproduce what was sent to it. The wheel should not go dead mid corner were feel is most important. Actually the next time you play and have it happen pay attention to what really happens. Even when you know its coming it causes you too steer in the direction it went loose for a second which then means you need to correct for it. If you had feel through the whole corner you would just drive through it smoothly.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 14:13
I don't think Steering Gain is good slider to use for strength control. It wasn't available until a few version down the line, and I think SMS only threw it in, so console users would have a way of attenuating the TF/FF force, similar to PC and CSW users do outside of the game. But because it wasn't meant for that, it needs to be adjusted sparingly, because it's actually more related to steering than FFB strength. To see what I mean, just turn it down really low, and then see how your steering is affected. It will be sluggish and slow, like your steering ratio is off. Once I discovered that, I stopped messing with it and just keep it at 1.0.

Also... although TF, FF, and SG can affect the strength of the wheel. I don't believe they are equal in their affect, or that they have a one-to-one relationship--meaning, cutting one by X amount and increasing another by the same amount doesn't equate to a wash/cancelling out and could result in a different feel, because each affects the FFB differently.



I Guess we agree then because thats what i ment i dont use Steering gain to Reduce FFB as i See others do... I would use the RAC to + or - tand Leave TF 98, Steering Gain 1.00... Then set the at the Wheel Power Level with Game Master FFB.


I also Made a Video thats posted in this Thread that shows Reducing Steering Gain Reduces Dynamic FFB Range.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 14:20
It can still clip at the wheel and not show in the graph as clipping if the wheel cant reproduce what was sent to it. The wheel should not go dead mid corner were feel is most important.

Check your FFB Graph and if your Graph looks Good then Reduce Game Master FFB thats where at the Wheel Clipping Comes From... Reduce the Game Master FFB to stop at the Wheel Clipping.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 14:23
It can still clip at the wheel and not show in the graph as clipping if the wheel cant reproduce what was sent to it. The wheel should not go dead mid corner were feel is most important.

Also you Need to make sure your Not getting 1 of the Front wheels off the Ground... There are a Few Tracks with Bumps in the Corner that can make1 of your tires Leave the Ground when Turning Hard.

morpwr
22-12-2015, 14:32
Also you Need to make sure your Not getting 1 of the Front wheels off the Ground... There are a Few Tracks with Bumps in the Corner that can make1 of your tires Leave the Ground when Turning Hard.

Its not that. Ive encountered this many times when testing different settings. Not sure what the exact cause is but its not right. The ones I'm using now don't do that.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 15:25
Its not that. Ive encountered this many times when testing different settings. Not sure what the exact cause is but its not right. The ones I'm using now don't do that.

Try Reducing the RAC and the Game Master FFB by 5 each until the problem is Gone... then Readjust to Fine tune

inthebagbud
22-12-2015, 16:50
It can still clip at the wheel and not show in the graph as clipping if the wheel cant reproduce what was sent to it. The wheel should not go dead mid corner were feel is most important. Actually the next time you play and have it happen pay attention to what really happens. Even when you know its coming it causes you too steer in the direction it went loose for a second which then means you need to correct for it. If you had feel through the whole corner you would just drive through it smoothly.

I am not sure it does go loose but I need to fire game up and probably record the effect on the graph, as it does feel like traction loss to me, but it has been a while since I raced the track combo. I was hoping to do that tonight but a consultant has just decided he wants to practice his surgical techniques on me so I am off to have have my Christmas eve drinks tonight as will be having Christmas lunch on a hospital ward.:(

Biggest downside is Santa was bringing me tp3a pro pedals ;)

Will have to continue discussion next week

morpwr
22-12-2015, 17:10
I am not sure it does go loose but I need to fire game up and probably record the effect on the graph, as it does feel like traction loss to me, but it has been a while since I raced the track combo. I was hoping to do that tonight but a consultant has just decided he wants to practice his surgical techniques on me so I am off to have have my Christmas eve drinks tonight as will be having Christmas lunch on a hospital ward.:(

Biggest downside is Santa was bringing me tp3a pro pedals ;)

Will have to continue discussion next week

Well good luck. You will love the pedals! If its the same thing ive encountered feels like a skip in the wheel you can make that go away with settings.

morpwr
22-12-2015, 17:16
Try Reducing the RAC and the Game Master FFB by 5 each until the problem is Gone... then Readjust to Fine tune

Didn't like reducing rac at all I always wind up back at the same spot and its not that the wheel is anywheres near too strong. Like I said I just went back to the 75ffb master and the same for tf and gain. Its nice and smooth and I can feel everything. But id figure id give it a shot with the rac just doesn't work for me.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 18:31
I am not sure it does go loose but I need to fire game up and probably record the effect on the graph, as it does feel like traction loss to me, but it has been a while since I raced the track combo. I was hoping to do that tonight but a consultant has just decided he wants to practice his surgical techniques on me so I am off to have have my Christmas eve drinks tonight as will be having Christmas lunch on a hospital ward.:(

Biggest downside is Santa was bringing me tp3a pro pedals ;)

Will have to continue discussion next week

Wishing you a Speedy Recovery Dude... Be well Get back to Racing Soon... Keep your Phone, Tablet or what ever at least you can Read and Post... Seems that we the PCars Community are on the Verge of Major FFB break throughs!!! I see alot of Ideas Coming together With Open Minded People Posting Sharing and Compairing Ideas.

GrimeyDog
22-12-2015, 18:34
Didn't like reducing rac at all I always wind up back at the same spot and its not that the wheel is anywheres near too strong. Like I said I just went back to the 75ffb master and the same for tf and gain. Its nice and smooth and I can feel everything. But id figure id give it a shot with the rac just doesn't work for me.

Nice... I thought you were getting at the wheel Clipping... I probly read wrong as i was at work just posting the Day away on Here... LOL... But the RAC Can and Should be used to Stop in the Game Clipping Combined with Game Master FFB to stop at the wheel Clipping... thas what i was thinking.

ProDriver
23-12-2015, 07:46
Yesterday night I Improved the clipping!!! It's very odd, but I need to put the values extremely low, FFB 20, TF 20, RAs 0.30...(and wheel ffb to 70) but at least, I had not much clipping as you can see in the telemetry graphic in my video (Minute 6.30).

https://youtu.be/LixMymy__QE?t=3m50s

With this base, how can I improve the feeling without clipping?

poirqc
23-12-2015, 11:05
Yesterday night I Improved the clipping!!! It's very odd, but I need to put the values extremely low, FFB 20, TF 20, RAs 0.30...(and wheel ffb to 70) but at least, I had not much clipping as you can see in the telemetry graphic in my video (Minute 6.30).

https://youtu.be/LixMymy__QE?t=3m50s

With this base, how can I improve the feeling without clipping?

The first thing that struck my eyes was that steering gain was still at 5. It's better for you to send it back to 1, since the wheel FFB is already @ 70. You'll be able to move TF around maybe, 75 for a starter.

The easiest thing would probably by to use the classic themplate, from there you just put the wheel ffb at 70, like you were, then put RAC to 0,85. It should give you something good right away.

ProDriver
23-12-2015, 13:53
Thank you @Poirqc. I didn't move the Steering gain, It is at 5 as a Default, but I will send it back to 1 as you mention and I will check!!! Hype ON!!!

But...Could SMS make a easiest FFB settings???

KasperVJensen
23-12-2015, 15:15
I think it perhaps something for pCars 2, but I believe they should focus on less cars, and put more of an effort into them in terms of setup directly out of the box.

The main problem I feel, is that people don't know what to expect from certain cars. It could be argued that it is better that the user is in charge of making that car feel like he/she imagines it to be, but it would be great if that could be done after the fact.

I have tried a few Formula cars, but not enough to comment on how pCars compares to them in terms of feel (within reason). I did, however do pro karting when I was younger, and I can tell you that it is a million miles away from the sim experience in terms of handling. I can still jump into a 125cc and do a decent lap (it would take me a few days to get slightly competetive, and a year to get in shape lol), but I can't for the life of me drive one on pCars. It's just too different.

From the extremely limited experience with single seaters, it's slightly better (as I imagine more time has been spent on them).

In general I will say that it is a great great game. But it lacks agression. I have a Playseat and a G29 setup with surround sound and massive screen, so it's a decent setup... But it lacks aggression in the sound and feel. I can understand that it is a game, and people wouldn't like it that much if you had to increase your fitness levels to get a decent couple of laps in. But that's where pre-made setups come in. Novice, Intermediate and Pro.

Why not get some presets made from actual drivers? I'm sure they could get a preset in the ballpark of the real feel. "This is how a BMW M1 Procar feels like... It's hard as hell to drive. If you don't like it, turn this slider down"

Just a thought.

KasperVJensen
23-12-2015, 16:01
Here's an idea...

I wouldn't mind paying for pro-setup profiles.

Like... If a GT3 driver had set up the G29 for a Z3 or whatever... I would pay 4-5 euros for that no problem if it was great.

Jezza819
26-12-2015, 03:12
Grimey,

I've used your basic settings in the PDF file and they've worked pretty good on most race cars I've tried. I think once patch 8.0 comes out and fixes the ice skating problem the others will snap into line.

Except for open wheel cars. I've tried it on the Lotus 72 and it nearly ripped the wheel out of my hands going over bumps or curbs and I still felt like the front tires weren't doing anything except pointing where the car should go, but they actually weren't doing much actual steering. The Formula C I just tried had almost no low to mid speed steering at all. **EDIT** I just tried the Ford IV and the Lotus and neither one of them acted like they had a steering wheel at all. It's almost you have to use the Force to try and turn them.

Is there a different set of standards that you need to use to get open wheel cars to handle, or what numbers off those basic setting should you tweak. I doubled the FY setting since you said that controlled road feel and it didn't do anything.

GrimeyDog
26-12-2015, 06:36
Grimey,

I've used your basic settings in the PDF file and they've worked pretty good on most race cars I've tried. I think once patch 8.0 comes out and fixes the ice skating problem the others will snap into line.

Except for open wheel cars. I've tried it on the Lotus 72 and it nearly ripped the wheel out of my hands going over bumps or curbs and I still felt like the front tires weren't doing anything except pointing where the car should go, but they actually weren't doing much actual steering. The Formula C I just tried had almost no low to mid speed steering at all.

Is there a different set of standards that you need to use to get open wheel cars to handle, or what numbers off those basic setting should you tweak. I doubled the FY setting since you said that controlled road feel and it didn't do anything.

I am currently working on Formula A in car settings... Turn the "MZ" down to 10 or below... you can also reduce the "FZ"(Try 66) and SoP(Try 60) Diff until it feels right to you.

Edit: ok i see your using a V2... make sure you are NOT using 100% Game master FFB.... i use 35 Game master FFB and on wheel FFB 75 .... FOR on the wheel i leave it set to 100.

sweqmeister
26-12-2015, 06:47
These settings helped me, thank you so much for staying up and helping me, here are the results with BMW Z4 GT3 Watkins Glen Short, 1:47:823

GrimeyDog
26-12-2015, 07:00
These settings helped me, thank you so much for staying up and helping me, here are the results with BMW Z4 GT3 Watkins Glen Short, 1:47:823

He was Fast enough to begin with... he is using a T150 with TP3A pedals... PS4, Watkins Glen short...in 1.5 hrs He went from driving with Full assist on to only using the racing line and managed to take 2.5 secs off his fastest lap time...LOL... That was a 1:07.823 you ran.... it was the short track not the long 1...Good FFB Tweek = Fast lap times is the motto.

when you cut that racing line off you will be even faster!!!

Haiden
26-12-2015, 16:33
Finished tuning the FFB for my CSW-v2. I took a different approach this time, focusing more on staying as close to defaults as possible. This was based on the idea/acknowledgement that SMS had obviously done a lot of work on the FFB system and there was a reason they set the defaults where they were--i.e. they represent somewhat of a middle ground balance. So I figured I’d get the TF/FF balance matched up to my on-wheel FF setting, and then work on the in-car settings before I started messing with the global configuration. Once I did that, the FFB felt great. And almost every single time I changed one of the other globals--Steering Gain, Relative Adjust, Scoop, Per Wheel Movement, etc.--the wheel felt worse, not better. In the end, I think I only changed three of the default scales in the globals. And, surprisingly, only made minor adjustments at the in-car level.

I think the FFB feels great with these settings, and the telemetry looks good (I'll post a video later). I used the Formula A to tune (that's my favorite car), and use the same in-car settings on all cars. I've testing them on multiple classes and cars-FC, GT3s, GT4s, LMPs, Road Cars, Lotus Classics, and a few others. Each car maintains its own distinct feel and personality, because they're all using the same in-car tune. The GTs and Road Cars actually feel better than they ever have since I bought the game. Give the settings a shot, and let me know what you think. Again, this configuration is for the CSW-v2, and requires force attenuation at the wheel level. It is not recommended for any other wheel, unless you're on PC and can make similar in-wheel adjustments in the PC driver control panel.

Updated: 1/3/16. Check the link below for new settings.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1205147&viewfull=1#post1205147

spacepadrille
26-12-2015, 17:54
Haiden, this is a very interesting approach, assuming that the defaults settings from SMS are not here out of nowhere. I will test it immediately !

Jezza819
26-12-2015, 21:45
I am currently working on Formula A in car settings... Turn the "MZ" down to 10 or below... you can also reduce the "FZ"(Try 66) and SoP(Try 60) Diff until it feels right to you.

Edit: ok i see your using a V2... make sure you are NOT using 100% Game master FFB.... i use 35 Game master FFB and on wheel FFB 75 .... FOR on the wheel i leave it set to 100.

I also have game master FFB set at 35 as per your numbers. Since I'm on Xbox 1 I don't have the FOR setting. I'll try the FZ and SoP reductions to see what happens. I just didn't know if you had run across certain cars that just seem not to want to steer at all on your numbers before.

Haiden
26-12-2015, 22:50
I also have game master FFB set at 35 as per your numbers. Since I'm on Xbox 1 I don't have the FOR setting. I'll try the FZ and SoP reductions to see what happens. I just didn't know if you had run across certain cars that just seem not to want to steer at all on your numbers before.

The FFB on Xb1 and PS4 is not the same, the exact same settings will produce different results between consoles.

Jezza819
27-12-2015, 00:12
Finished tuning the FFB for my CSW-v2. I took a different approach this time, focusing more on staying as close to defaults as possible. This was based on the idea/acknowledgement that SMS had obviously done a lot of work on the FFB system and there was a reason they set the defaults where they were--i.e. they represent somewhat of a middle ground balance. So I figured I’d get the TF/FF balance matched up to my on-wheel FF setting, and then work on the in-car settings before I started messing with the global configuration. Once I did that, the FFB felt great. And almost every single time I changed one of the other globals--Steering Gain, Relative Adjust, Scoop, Per Wheel Movement, etc.--the wheel felt worse, not better. In the end, I think I only changed three of the default scales in the globals. And, surprisingly, only made minor adjustments at the in-car level.

I think the FFB feels great with these settings, and the telemetry looks good (I'll post a video later). I used the Formula A to tune (that's my favorite car), and use the same in-car settings on all cars. I've testing them on multiple classes and cars-FC, GT3s, GT4s, LMPs, Road Cars, Lotus Classics, and a few others. Each car maintains its own distinct feel and personality, because they're all using the same in-car tune. The GTs and Road Cars actually feel better than they ever have since I bought the game. Give the settings a shot, and let me know what you think. Again, this configuration is for the CSW-v2, and requires force attenuation at the wheel level. It is not recommended for any other wheel, unless you're on PC and can make similar in-wheel adjustments in the PC driver control panel.


Fanatec CSW V2 Wheel base settings:
Sens: AUT | FF: 80-85 | SHo: 100 | ABS: OFF | Lin: OFF | Dea: OFF | Dri: OFF | For: 100 | Spr: 100 | Dpr: 100 |Brf: 50

Driver verison: 231/142

I highly recommend using the wheel's FF scale to control the overall strength, instead of the in-car master scales. This ensures the current dynamic is maintained, because you're only increasing/decreasing the strength of the game's final calculated output. Adjusting the in-car master scales mainly affects tire force, offsetting the TF/FF balance.

In-Game Global FFB Settings:

Tire Force: 100
Force Feedback: 60

Per Wheel Movement: 0.00
Per Wheel Movement Squared: 0.00
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.04

Deadzone Removal Range: 0.00
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.01

Linkage Scale: 0.00
Linkage Stiffness: 1.00
Linkage Damping: 1.00

Relative Adjust Gain: 0.98
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.10
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.96

Scoop Knee: 0.70
Scoop Reduction: 0.15

Soft Clipping (half input): 0.00
Soft Clipping (full input): 0.00

Menu Spring Strength: 0.30
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 0.80
Steering gain: 1.00

In-game Pedal Configuration (Sensitivity and Deadzones):

Throttle Deadzone: 5
Throttle Sensitivity: 50
Brake Deadzone: 6
Brake Sensitivity: 40
Clutch Deadzone: 7
Clutch Sensitivity: 35

In-Car FFB Settings:

Master Scale: 40
Fx: 70
Fy: 80
Fz: 90
Mz: 68

All Smoothing Scales: 0

Arm: Default

SoP Scale: 40
SoP Lat: 10
SoP Diff: 10
SoP Damp: 0

I tried this on just one car so far the Lotus Type 40 Ford and I get intense shaking when hitting the brakes, so hard that I can't hold the wheel. What needs to be adjusted to stop that?

Jezza819
27-12-2015, 00:15
The FFB on Xb1 and PS4 is not the same, the exact same settings will produce different results between consoles.

Unfortunately I'm finding that out. I think what I need to do for now is to totally abandon those cars that just won't steer at all until some numbers come out for Xbox and the V2 that are usable across the board. I can just run prototypes, GT3, and GT4 for now.