PDA

View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 32 33

konnos
29-11-2016, 18:59
It was actually meant as a sexual innuendo! You know, swap positions, back and forth... /winkwink

morpwr
29-11-2016, 19:53
It was actually meant as a sexual innuendo! You know, swap positions, back and forth... /winkwink

I cant believe I missed that! :rolleyes: Nice one.lol

GrimeyDog
29-11-2016, 20:20
It was actually meant as a sexual innuendo! You know, swap positions, back and forth... /winkwink


:hopelessness:

Haiden
29-11-2016, 21:02
I always liked pcars but its a different experience with better gear. Consumer grade stuff is good and has come along way since my g27 but the higher end stuff shows what the games are really capable of. I'm finding out a lot of the things people bitch about aren't the games fault but the limitations of our gear. Just a couple hours with pedals that aren't positioned exactly right yet showed how savable spins really are in pcars. I actually think they got it pretty damn close now that I have better pedals. I cant wait to see what the accuforce wheel feels like.

Exactly! Most of the TM wheels produce about 4 Nm of torque. Logitech 27/29 have less than 2.5 Nm. Fanatec V2 produces 7 Nm, and the Accuforce produce 8-13 Nm (depending on the driver mode). I'll probably upgrade my pedals sometime down the road to a set of Heusinkvelds, but I'm not sure about the wheel yet. With 8-13 Nm of torque, the Accuforce is stronger, but I'm not sure if I want to pay $1,800 for power I'm not going to use. The V2 only has 7 Nm of torque and it's pretty damn strong. I doubt I'd run the Accuforce at full strength. In fact, I often see/hear reviewers say they turned it down to 20% or less. That would bring it down to around 10 Nm of torque. If I'm only going to be running it 20%, then I have wonder if the additional 3 Nm or torque is worth the price. I'd also have to buy a new F1 rim. :( Since the V2 is already putting out 7 Nm, I assume Fanatec's DD wheel will produce more, bringing it closer or over the 10 Nm mark. That's why I'm just going to wait to see what Fanatec does. Sucks, though, because I don't know how long it will be before Fanatec has a DD on the market. :confused:

poirqc
29-11-2016, 22:42
Exactly! Most of the TM wheels produce about 4 Nm of torque. Logitech 27/29 have less than 2.5 Nm. Fanatec V2 produces 7 Nm, and the Accuforce produce 8-13 Nm (depending on the driver mode). I'll probably upgrade my pedals sometime down the road to a set of Heusinkvelds, but I'm not sure about the wheel yet. With 8-13 Nm of torque, the Accuforce is stronger, but I'm not sure if I want to pay $1,800 for power I'm not going to use. The V2 only has 7 Nm of torque and it's pretty damn strong. I doubt I'd run the Accuforce at full strength. In fact, I often see/hear reviewers say they turned it down to 20% or less. That would bring it down to around 10 Nm of torque. If I'm only going to be running it 20%, then I have wonder if the additional 3 Nm or torque is worth the price. I'd also have to buy a new F1 rim. :( Since the V2 is already putting out 7 Nm, I assume Fanatec's DD wheel will produce more, bringing it closer or over the 10 Nm mark. That's why I'm just going to wait to see what Fanatec does. Sucks, though, because I don't know how long it will be before Fanatec has a DD on the market. :confused:

Imho, i think the added torque a of DD wheel is just meant so that you don't have a FFB deadzone and can go straight linear. This means you'll have only TF around 40, yet, the wheel will still be strong enough.

Jezza819
29-11-2016, 23:19
I have a GT Omega racing/office chair which means it has rolling caster type wheels on it. What I would like to see GT Omega incorporate is some way to lock the casters in place to keep them from rolling. My apartment does have carpet on the floor but I still start sessions off at the right distance from the wheel but after 4 or 5 presses of the brake pedal I've pushed myself back far enough that it's sometimes difficult to get full brake pedal pressure.

That's about the only gear related issue I have right now if you can call a chair gear. Well I still don't like my Fanatec steering wheel because it's suede and it will turn my hands black unless I wear gloves. But I refuse to pay another $400 for a leather one.

morpwr
29-11-2016, 23:21
[QUOTE=Haiden;1314889]Exactly! Most of the TM wheels produce about 4 Nm of torque. Logitech 27/29 have less than 2.5 Nm. Fanatec V2 produces 7 Nm, and the Accuforce produce 8-13 Nm (depending on the driver mode). I'll probably upgrade my pedals sometime down the road to a set of Heusinkvelds, but I'm not sure about the wheel yet. With 8-13 Nm of torque, the Accuforce is stronger, but I'm not sure if I want to pay $1,800 for power I'm not going to use. The V2 only has 7 Nm of torque and it's pretty damn strong. I doubt I'd run the Accuforce at full strength. In fact, I often see/hear reviewers say they turned it down to 20% or less. That would bring it down to around 10 Nm of torque. If I'm only going to be running it 20%, then I have wonder if the additional 3 Nm or torque is worth the price. I'd also have to buy a new F1 rim. :( Since the V2 is already putting out 7 Nm, I assume Fanatec's DD wheel will produce more, bringing it closer or over the 10 Nm mark. That's why I'm just going to wait to see what Fanatec does. Sucks, though, because I don't know how long it will be before Fanatec has a DD on the market. :confused:[/QUOTE

I thought the accuforce was 20nm but I could be wrong and the bodnar and osw closer to 30nm. But I'm with you on how strong do we really need these. I think the advantage with strength is its easier to reproduce small forces and like poirqc pointed out the obvious linearity of them. I know the osw is the strongest and usually rates the highest but only by a slight margin over the accuforce. So for me accuforce it is between cost and ease of use it seems like the best choice. Unless I win the lottery the bodnar is out of the question. I could by a motion rig for the cost of the wheel.lol

morpwr
29-11-2016, 23:23
I have a GT Omega racing/office chair which means it has rolling caster type wheels on it. What I would like to see GT Omega incorporate is some way to lock the casters in place to keep them from rolling. My apartment does have carpet on the floor but I still start sessions off at the right distance from the wheel but after 4 or 5 presses of the brake pedal I've pushed myself back far enough that it's sometimes difficult to get full brake pedal pressure.

That's about the only gear related issue I have right now if you can call a chair gear. Well I still don't like my Fanatec steering wheel because it's suede and it will turn my hands black unless I wear gloves. But I refuse to pay another $400 for a leather one.

Cant you just swap them out for ones that do. Maybe home depot or harbor freight?

Haiden
30-11-2016, 00:01
I have a GT Omega racing/office chair which means it has rolling caster type wheels on it. What I would like to see GT Omega incorporate is some way to lock the casters in place to keep them from rolling. My apartment does have carpet on the floor but I still start sessions off at the right distance from the wheel but after 4 or 5 presses of the brake pedal I've pushed myself back far enough that it's sometimes difficult to get full brake pedal pressure.

That's about the only gear related issue I have right now if you can call a chair gear. Well I still don't like my Fanatec steering wheel because it's suede and it will turn my hands black unless I wear gloves. But I refuse to pay another $400 for a leather one.

Yeah... I'm really not sure why they don't have a locking mechanism for that chair. It seems like a no-brainer. That funny about the wheel. I have a love/hate relationship with the Porsche rim. I love it's light weight, but I hate the fact that it's not Alcantara. But I use gloves when I race, and the Alcantara gives you better grip on the rim. The Porsche rim feels to slippery. But it's so light...LOL. I'm curious to know exactly how much heavier the BMW rim is, because I've thought about selling the Porsche rim and getting the BMW rim.

I also had to disable the rev lights on the Porsche rim, because they're positioned right in my sight line and are too bright when racing in the dark. :(

Haiden
30-11-2016, 00:07
I thought the accuforce was 20nm but I could be wrong and the bodnar and osw closer to 30nm. But I'm with you on how strong do we really need these. I think the advantage with strength is its easier to reproduce small forces and like poirqc pointed out the obvious linearity of them. I know the osw is the strongest and usually rates the highest but only by a slight margin over the accuforce. So for me accuforce it is between cost and ease of use it seems like the best choice. Unless I win the lottery the bodnar is out of the question. I could by a motion rig for the cost of the wheel.lol

Not sure what they advertise, but here's a link to the actual test results I found. There are charts results below, if you scroll down. No surprise that the OSW has so much torque and basically flat linearity. But I was surprised that the CSW-V2 actually has a more linear response curve than the Accuforce. Not as much torque, but the AF has a slightly bowed curve. :confused:

Edit: Forgot the link...LOL

http://www.edracing.com/edr/Wheel-Torque.php

Also, the DD wheels do have better fidelity, but my understanding is that's more a result of response time. DD's have a much faster response because there's nothing between the motor and the wheel. I think the additional torque allows the wheel to produce more, which means you can raise the FF level without clipping. That higher ceiling opens up the dynamic range, which, coupled with the better response time, results in more accurate force production.

morpwr
30-11-2016, 00:53
Not sure what they advertise, but here's a link to the actual test results I found. There are charts results below, if you scroll down. No surprise that the OSW has so much torque and basically flat linearity. But I was surprised that the CSW-V2 actually has a more linear response curve than the Accuforce. Not as much torque, but the AF has a slightly bowed curve. :confused:

Edit: Forgot the link...LOL

http://www.edracing.com/edr/Wheel-Torque.php

Also, the DD wheels do have better fidelity, but my understanding is that's more a result of response time. DD's have a much faster response because there's nothing between the motor and the wheel. I think the additional torque allows the wheel to produce more, which means you can raise the FF level without clipping. That higher ceiling opens up the dynamic range, which, coupled with the better response time, results in more accurate force production.

Its strange all his numbers look quite a bit lower then advertised. I know the osw and bodnar should be a lot stronger then that. He also points out he didn't think the accuforce and osw test were accurate or the test didn't work exactly right. Not sure exactly why he says that. Well I guess ill find out when I get an accuforce.

GrimeyDog
30-11-2016, 00:59
http://youtu.be/lgdnbDBUX5E



This has gotta be 1 of my most challenging Races VS the AI.... AI is on 90% the lead AI is just Insanely fast... if you dont bum rush to the front with a good start you may never see the lead AI... LOL... Just watch and note My Lap times i was running fast laps check the times!!! Now the question is did i catch the lead AI car??? :confused:... watch and see for yourself.


Using the Oculs check out how the sun rays hit your eyes and your view of the road... Nice touch of realism there.

Edit: I ran the same race this time it was a Mcclaren in front...Fastest lap i ran was a 1:22.7xx every other lap besides the first lap was a 1:23.xxx and i still aint catch the lead AI:cower:... I like it!!! Keeps it challenging. My times are Much more consistent with the Oculus than on the TV...Hitting the same corner Apex is sooo much easier:yes:

Shogun613
30-11-2016, 02:34
I have a question that I don't know has been asked or not yet...
Would there theoretically be any advantage to running a slightly higher SOP scale value than the Master Spindle scale value in rwd cars to have better awareness to what's going on in the rear?
And would the opposite be true for fwd cars?
These are just some random musings going through my mind as I've been diving back into PCars recently...

GrimeyDog
30-11-2016, 03:01
IMO it would be better to keep the values even and + or - SOP Diff and SOP Lat until you feel the desired results.

Not entirely true about FWD cars either...too much SOP can make the cars rear end feel like its dragging because SOP changes the wheel weight constantly depending on what the rear end is doing.... rear wheel Drive cars its easier to feel because you can throttle steer your way out of a spin.


Keep in Mind i use 100 in Car Masters... that leaves +99 or - 99 to adjust the Masters as Needed per Car....Note using Masters 100 is very Global settings dependent according to your TF, RAG, RAC. settings... Not all tweeks can use High Masters.

I am still using The Same TF/RAC 75 settings that are posted in the PDF on the First page.... They work PC and PS4 1 to 1 No Retweek Needed... Only diff is PC i use No Scoops and PS4 i use 68/24 scoops.

Haiden
30-11-2016, 12:16
I have a question that I don't know has been asked or not yet...
Would there theoretically be any advantage to running a slightly higher SOP scale value than the Master Spindle scale value in rwd cars to have better awareness to what's going on in the rear?
And would the opposite be true for fwd cars?
These are just some random musings going through my mind as I've been diving back into PCars recently...

Keep them the same. The SoP forces work in/use the same spectrum as the rack forces. You'll get more feeling from the scale side you increase, but it will come at the expense of drowning out the other.

Haiden
30-11-2016, 12:29
Its strange all his numbers look quite a bit lower then advertised. I know the osw and bodnar should be a lot stronger then that. He also points out he didn't think the accuforce and osw test were accurate or the test didn't work exactly right. Not sure exactly why he says that. Well I guess ill find out when I get an accuforce.

Not that surprising. It's called marketing--always quote the product's best performance under ideal conditions. :)

I'm sure it's a noticeable increase in strength. I think one of the biggest benefits will be having SC4 to shape/tune your FFB to your exact liking. :)

I'm jealous. I want to make the move, but need to wait on Fanatec. Switching would mean losing most of my current rims, and I have yet to find a good F1 style rim for the Accuforce that doesn't cost more than the wheel base itself. :( Pretty sure I'd miss that rim and hate driving modern F1 cars with a GT style rim. That's too much money to spend on something that leaves me short in my favorite class. IDK... I feel a little stuck/trapped on the DD front. :confused:

BigDad
30-11-2016, 13:10
Exactly! Most of the TM wheels produce about 4 Nm of torque. Logitech 27/29 have less than 2.5 Nm. Fanatec V2 produces 7 Nm, and the Accuforce produce 8-13 Nm (depending on the driver mode). I'll probably upgrade my pedals sometime down the road to a set of Heusinkvelds, but I'm not sure about the wheel yet. With 8-13 Nm of torque, the Accuforce is stronger, but I'm not sure if I want to pay $1,800 for power I'm not going to use. The V2 only has 7 Nm of torque and it's pretty damn strong. I doubt I'd run the Accuforce at full strength. In fact, I often see/hear reviewers say they turned it down to 20% or less. That would bring it down to around 10 Nm of torque. If I'm only going to be running it 20%, then I have wonder if the additional 3 Nm or torque is worth the price. I'd also have to buy a new F1 rim. :( Since the V2 is already putting out 7 Nm, I assume Fanatec's DD wheel will produce more, bringing it closer or over the 10 Nm mark. That's why I'm just going to wait to see what Fanatec does. Sucks, though, because I don't know how long it will be before Fanatec has a DD on the market. :confused:

Pretty sure there is more to them than just power!

morpwr
30-11-2016, 13:36
Not that surprising. It's called marketing--always quote the product's best performance under ideal conditions. :)

I'm sure it's a noticeable increase in strength. I think one of the biggest benefits will be having SC4 to shape/tune your FFB to your exact liking. :)

I'm jealous. I want to make the move, but need to wait on Fanatec. Switching would mean losing most of my current rims, and I have yet to find a good F1 style rim for the Accuforce that doesn't cost more than the wheel base itself. :( Pretty sure I'd miss that rim and hate driving modern F1 cars with a GT style rim. That's too much money to spend on something that leaves me short in my favorite class. IDK... I feel a little stuck/trapped on the DD front. :confused:

If it was a consumer grade wheel it wouldn't surprise me but on the osw end especially it is. Remember that's an industrial motor so I would expect the numbers to be close. How would you design something if the numbers are that far off? Same goes for the bodnar at 4000 dollars they better be close! lol

Jezza819
30-11-2016, 14:30
Cant you just swap them out for ones that do. Maybe home depot or harbor freight?

I haven't really thought about that but I'll check into it. I know here where I work we get our parts in big cages with rolling wheels that have locks on them. I guess you can get the same thing for office chairs.


Yeah... I'm really not sure why they don't have a locking mechanism for that chair. It seems like a no-brainer. That funny about the wheel. I have a love/hate relationship with the Porsche rim. I love it's light weight, but I hate the fact that it's not Alcantara. But I use gloves when I race, and the Alcantara gives you better grip on the rim. The Porsche rim feels to slippery. But it's so light...LOL. I'm curious to know exactly how much heavier the BMW rim is, because I've thought about selling the Porsche rim and getting the BMW rim.

I also had to disable the rev lights on the Porsche rim, because they're positioned right in my sight line and are too bright when racing in the dark. :(

I went through three pairs of gloves to finally come up with some I liked which ended up being a 30 year old pair of winter leather gloves I had stuffed in an old overcoat. They are nice and thin.

I love the shape of my wheel. It's the flat bottom, circular on top model. Fanatec has a leather version of it but it has "Forza Motorsports" emblazoned across the bottom of it. My old Fanatec setup with the Porsche GT2 wheel was alcantara and I never had any issues of it rubbing off on my hands.

GrimeyDog
30-11-2016, 15:13
I haven't really thought about that but I'll check into it. I know here where I work we get our parts in big cages with rolling wheels that have locks on them. I guess you can get the same thing for office chairs.



I went through three pairs of gloves to finally come up with some I liked which ended up being a 30 year old pair of winter leather gloves I had stuffed in an old overcoat. They are nice and thin.

I love the shape of my wheel. It's the flat bottom, circular on top model. Fanatec has a leather version of it but it has "Forza Motorsports" emblazoned across the bottom of it. My old Fanatec setup with the Porsche GT2 wheel was alcantara and I never had any issues of it rubbing off on my hands.

Have you tried "Mechanix" Gloves??? they are very comfortable and super thin... I use them everyday at work... I can do everything in them write, Count $$$, Drive i can even work the touch screen with them:yes:... They Cost between $16.00 and $20.00.... You can buy them at any Auto Zone or Hard ware store... They are Very Flexable because they have Elastic Niylon/Cloth make up with Faux Suede for palm and fingers.

Bealdor
30-11-2016, 15:23
Try out drummer gloves. They're very thin, grippy and you won't sweat much in them.
I never lost a stick when I played with them on and they work great for sim racing too.

Jezza819
30-11-2016, 19:22
Have you tried "Mechanix" Gloves??? they are very comfortable and super thin... I use them everyday at work... I can do everything in them write, Count $$$, Drive i can even work the touch screen with them:yes:... They Cost between $16.00 and $20.00.... You can buy them at any Auto Zone or Hard ware store... They are Very Flexable because they have Elastic Niylon/Cloth make up with Faux Suede for palm and fingers.

No I didn't think of that but these that I have now work just fine. I just hate that I didn't remember I had them until I spent money on two other pair that I didn't like.


Try out drummer gloves. They're very thin, grippy and you won't sweat much in them.
I never lost a stick when I played with them on and they work great for sim racing too.

Golf gloves would probably work also.

Haiden
30-11-2016, 19:51
I went through three pairs of gloves to finally come up with some I liked which ended up being a 30 year old pair of winter leather gloves I had stuffed in an old overcoat. They are nice and thin.

I love the shape of my wheel. It's the flat bottom, circular on top model. Fanatec has a leather version of it but it has "Forza Motorsports" emblazoned across the bottom of it. My old Fanatec setup with the Porsche GT2 wheel was alcantara and I never had any issues of it rubbing off on my hands.

These are amazingly thin and form fitting. You need to get the hand measurement right, though. If you're on the cusp, go with the next size up, because they are extremely form-fitting, and will be too tight if you take the size down.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017NGVK1Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Haiden
30-11-2016, 19:53
Pretty sure there is more to them than just power!

Agreed. Like I said above...


Also, the DD wheels do have better fidelity, but my understanding is that's more a result of response time. DD's have a much faster response because there's nothing between the motor and the wheel. I think the additional torque allows the wheel to produce more, which means you can raise the FF level without clipping. That higher ceiling opens up the dynamic range, which, coupled with the better response time, results in more accurate force production.

The torque comment was specific to his comment about the torque test results I shared.


Edit: Also... I was wrong about AMS! I've been reading up on it since I last tried it, and pretty much learned all the .ini file tweaks and performance settings. I decided to give it another go yesterday. The GUI is still a horrible mess, but since playing rF2, all of the setting in AMS suddely made sense. They aren't organized well, but they didn't change the label names for the scales, so thanks to rF2, I know what they are and it was easier to get things set up. I'm still not a fan of having to tweak the FFB in the .ini file, or the fact that there is no FFB meter to see clipping, and you have to dial it in by feel, but I now see that as a limited issue--once they're all set, it's over. I read somewhere that it's best to let the GPU handle the graphics optimization, so I turned the in-game settings off and cranked the settings at the GPU level, and it looks like a whole new game.

All in all, the few cars I did get dialed in now have the best FFB I've ever felt. You were totally right. I wish they had a few more familiar tracks, but it'll be fun learning new ones, so I'm not complaining. They really need to get the GUI straightened out and get the in-game graphics optimization working, though, because I think a lot of people are turned off by it and don't get far enough along with it to see how good it is. You know, like I did. :rolleyes:

morpwr
30-11-2016, 20:24
Agreed. Like I said above...



The torque comment was specific to his comment about the torque test results I shared.


Speaking of that we were both correct on the accuforce it is 13nm but has a boost mode built in that allows it to hit 20nm for a short time. I knew I read 20nm somewhere.

poirqc
01-12-2016, 01:59
Have you tried "Mechanix" Gloves??? they are very comfortable and super thin... I use them everyday at work... I can do everything in them write, Count $$$, Drive i can even work the touch screen with them:yes:... They Cost between $16.00 and $20.00.... You can buy them at any Auto Zone or Hard ware store... They are Very Flexable because they have Elastic Niylon/Cloth make up with Faux Suede for palm and fingers.

Those gloves rocks! I use them to at work too! Sadly, they've been cheaper since some years. I remember when the suede went up on the side of the fingers instead of thin nylon like they are now. They lasted longer before...

There's couple models you can choose from. The thin ones are great!

BigDad
01-12-2016, 04:32
Agreed. Like I said above...



The torque comment was specific to his comment about the torque test results I shared.


Edit: Also... I was wrong about AMS! I've been reading up on it since I last tried it, and pretty much learned all the .ini file tweaks and performance settings. I decided to give it another go yesterday. The GUI is still a horrible mess, but since playing rF2, all of the setting in AMS suddely made sense. They aren't organized well, but they didn't change the label names for the scales, so thanks to rF2, I know what they are and it was easier to get things set up. I'm still not a fan of having to tweak the FFB in the .ini file, or the fact that there is no FFB meter to see clipping, and you have to dial it in by feel, but I now see that as a limited issue--once they're all set, it's over. I read somewhere that it's best to let the GPU handle the graphics optimization, so I turned the in-game settings off and cranked the settings at the GPU level, and it looks like a whole new game.

All in all, the few cars I did get dialed in now have the best FFB I've ever felt. You were totally right. I wish they had a few more familiar tracks, but it'll be fun learning new ones, so I'm not complaining. They really need to get the GUI straightened out and get the in-game graphics optimization working, though, because I think a lot of people are turned off by it and don't get far enough along with it to see how good it is. You know, like I did. :rolleyes:

Im glad you gave it another go!!
Get some mods from Racedepartment . Paul G.(cant remember his last name ,lol) has heaps . A 18 track mega pack has all the usual and more and pretty much live up to Reiza standards . Ive got over 120 pretty decent mods tracks for AMS and about the same for rFactor 2
Look into enabling Realfeel , you can manage FFB on the fly with the right Ctrl and numpad . If you find 2ndLastjedi on the Reiza forum you can see my post finding out haw i enabled it . Cant help at the moment as i'm out of town away from PC.

Haiden
01-12-2016, 05:55
Im glad you gave it another go!!
Get some mods from Racedepartment . Paul G.(cant remember his last name ,lol) has heaps . A 18 track mega pack has all the usual and more and pretty much live up to Reiza standards . Ive got over 120 pretty decent mods tracks for AMS and about the same for rFactor 2
Look into enabling Realfeel , you can manage FFB on the fly with the right Ctrl and numpad . If you find 2ndLastjedi on the Reiza forum you can see my post finding out haw i enabled it . Cant help at the moment as i'm out of town away from PC.


Me too. It's pretty good. Feels great now!

Enable RealFeel? Isn't it already on by default? I edited the RealFeelPlugin.ini file and the changes I made are working. Am I missing something. I read that somewhere about the keyboard to modify FFb on the fly, but forgot about it. I'm glad you reminded me. It's pretty easy now. I'm just going through the classes and dialing out the clipping.

I'm gonna check out those mods. I'd like to get some of the more familiar tracks. Although, I'm loving that Virginia track in AMS.

Edit: Is the modder's name Patrick Giranthon?

gotdirt410sprintcar
01-12-2016, 06:49
Have a question too anyone who have TX servo base is there any thing i need too look out for. I know i should do firmware update but when i got my t500 it was already updated thanks. Feeling worried about these thrustmaster products lol

morpwr
01-12-2016, 11:54
Have a question too anyone who have TX servo base is there any thing i need too look out for. I know i should do firmware update but when i got my t500 it was already updated thanks. Feeling worried about these thrustmaster products lol

I would say no. Just make sure its updated and turn the fan on so it runs all time time. You don't ridiculously heavy ffb so I don't think youll have any issues.

morpwr
01-12-2016, 11:58
Anybody see the new pc only wheel from thrustmaster? I cant believe they came out with a pc only wheel and it isn't dd seeing they have one for gt. Besides the fact the wheel looks like a toy.

morpwr
01-12-2016, 12:09
Me too. It's pretty good. Feels great now!

Enable RealFeel? Isn't it already on by default? I edited the RealFeelPlugin.ini file and the changes I made are working. Am I missing something. I read that somewhere about the keyboard to modify FFb on the fly, but forgot about it. I'm glad you reminded me. It's pretty easy now. I'm just going through the classes and dialing out the clipping.

I'm gonna check out those mods. I'd like to get some of the more familiar tracks. Although, I'm loving that Virginia track in AMS.

Edit: Is the modder's name Patrick Giranthon?

I gave that game a few minutes last night again. Why is everything in that game so complicated? I'm still trying to figure out how to get the pedals and wheel working again. Ill have to spend some time when this when I have nothing to do. Its so much easier to just jump in pcars or r3e at this point and have some good races. I still cant believe how much different the pedals make these games. I finally got on r3e last night after screwing around for 20 minutes and same there. You can hear things from the tires you never heard before when braking. Trailbraking is sooo much easier. I just always thought it was me that couldn't do it but it was the pedals making it difficult. Same goes for running really tight with another car. I don't worry about it anymore. Because I'm confident I can slow down now without rearending them.

Haiden
01-12-2016, 12:15
Anybody see the new pc only wheel from thrustmaster? I cant believe they came out with a pc only wheel and it isn't dd seeing they have one for gt. Besides the fact the wheel looks like a toy.

Yeah... Heard it's also going to be selling for $499. Good luck with that.

Is the GT branded wheel DD? Last I heard that was still unverified.

morpwr
01-12-2016, 12:33
Yeah... Heard it's also going to be selling for $499. Good luck with that.

Is the GT branded wheel DD? Last I heard that was still unverified.

From the interviews with the guy from the gt series I saw it is. He said the wheel was connected directly to the motor.

Haiden
01-12-2016, 12:39
I gave that game a few minutes last night again. Why is everything in that game so complicated? I'm still trying to figure out how to get the pedals and wheel working again. Ill have to spend some time when this when I have nothing to do. Its so much easier to just jump in pcars or r3e at this point and have some good races. I still cant believe how much different the pedals make these games. I finally got on r3e last night after screwing around for 20 minutes and same there. You can hear things from the tires you never heard before when braking. Trailbraking is sooo much easier. I just always thought it was me that couldn't do it but it was the pedals making it difficult. Same goes for running really tight with another car. I don't worry about it anymore. Because I'm confident I can slow down now without rearending them.

Yeah... I hear you. That's why got so frustrated with it last time. They really make you work for it, and that's something I don't really care for. The game obviously wasn't ready for commercial release. That being said, if you do struggle through it, you'll be rewarded greatly. You might want to do what I did. There was no intent behind my method at the time, it just worked out well. I bought rFactor 2. The graphics aren't as good as AMS (and AMS' are a little dated), but the underlying engine is almost the same. In fact, the menus options and settings are practically identical. The difference is, rF2 has a much more logical/intuitive GUI, so you get everything setup in a matter of minutes. The FFB in rF2 was so good, that it got me interested in AMS again, because I knew they were basically the same physics engine and AMS had updated graphics and a few FFB updates. So I started reading up on AMS--the forums and online articles about setting it up. When I bought AMS this time, it was a totally different setup experience. I still felt a little slighted by Reiza for not putting a little more polish on it before release, but I was able to navigate the setup, because although the AMS GUI is a mess, all the settings use the exact same labels as rF2, so I knew exactly what they meant and even where to start dialing them in. Also, rF2's physics are so good that I didn't even care about the lackluster graphics. I thought that would bother me, but that feeling went away as soon as I left the pit lane...LOL.

Not really sure why you're having a pedal issue. All I had to do was going into the Controls option and map them, and then they worked. I had to map the wheel axis, too in either rF2 or AMS, can't remember which one. The hardest thing I found about setting up AMS was dialing out the clipping. You have to edit the .ini file to do that. Finding and editing the file is simple, but there no FFB meter for the game (Seriously WTF Reiza?). You can do it by feel. It just takes longer, because you think you have it, until you take a high speed corner a certain way and get that dead weight feeling in the wheel.

Anyway, don't avoid tackling it, because I guarantee you will be very impressed with the feel. BigDad was absolutely right. AMS has amazing FFB. The problem is, Reiza seems to have put all their time on the tire model and FFB, and then slapped the GUI together without much design thought. I honestly regret giving up on it so quickly before, because now, all I want to do is play AMS...LOL. The physics and handling are sooo good, that driving well is much more of a challenge than it is in other titles, at least it is for me. You have to be pretty damn smooth on the brake and throttle to turn a decent lap. And cars like the Formula V10 are just the most unforgiving beasts you've ever driven in that game. So much fun and rewarding when you get it right, but you have to focused--looking far ahead, taking in all the track info you can to get on your line, hit your braking point, nail the apex, and then lay the power down as gently as you'd wipe a newborn's ass...LOL. Get any of those things wrong, you're gone...LOL.

From the comments you've made about sim racing, I honestly think you're sitting on something wonderful and just can't see it yet, because Reiza wrapped it in a plain brown paper bag.

BigDad
01-12-2016, 13:55
Me too. It's pretty good. Feels great now!

Enable RealFeel? Isn't it already on by default? I edited the RealFeelPlugin.ini file and the changes I made are working. Am I missing something. I read that somewhere about the keyboard to modify FFb on the fly, but forgot about it. I'm glad you reminded me. It's pretty easy now. I'm just going through the classes and dialing out the clipping.

I'm gonna check out those mods. I'd like to get some of the more familiar tracks. Although, I'm loving that Virginia track in AMS.

Edit: Is the modder's name Patrick Giranthon?

Yeah , thats him .
There are plenty more also a whole heap from EEC http://gtr2-endurance.forumotion.org/t3442-eec-ams-race-tracks
And they have a really good GT3 pack also but that is on their facebook page . Comes in three separate files ?? Dont forget the texture file otherwise it is only a safety car .
There is heaps more all over the net for AMS (i've nearly filled three pages of cars now). its a pity they didn't go the Steam workshop route like rFactor 2 did .
Some of the skin packs bring the older formula cars to life with all the liveries from the earlier era of F1
As for real feel , it is active by default but you can enable a voice to say adjustments real time . As you adjust with Ctrl+keypad she says what was adjusted so you know what you changed .
I find i'm spending most of my time in rFactor 2 now but do really like AMS i just miss the shadows from in the cockpit, really weird from Reiza to leave that out and it isn't something they intrend putting in with a update , we just have to wait for Reiza 17 .

Haiden
01-12-2016, 15:28
Yeah , thats him .
There are plenty more also a whole heap from EEC http://gtr2-endurance.forumotion.org/t3442-eec-ams-race-tracks
And they have a really good GT3 pack also but that is on their facebook page . Comes in three separate files ?? Dont forget the texture file otherwise it is only a safety car .
There is heaps more all over the net for AMS (i've nearly filled three pages of cars now). its a pity they didn't go the Steam workshop route like rFactor 2 did .
Some of the skin packs bring the older formula cars to life with all the liveries from the earlier era of F1
As for real feel , it is active by default but you can enable a voice to say adjustments real time . As you adjust with Ctrl+keypad she says what was adjusted so you know what you changed .
I find i'm spending most of my time in rFactor 2 now but do really like AMS i just miss the shadows from in the cockpit, really weird from Reiza to leave that out and it isn't something they intrend putting in with a update , we just have to wait for Reiza 17 .

I saw the texture thing mentioned numerous times. I guess a lot of people forget it...LOL Totally agree about the workshop files. That would make it extremely easy to find and install them. Yeah... I was really loving rF2. I'm going put some more time in AMS, and then go back to compare. But I'm pretty sure one of the two will become my new go to. The feel in both is just too good.

I honestly hadn't noticed the missing shadows, but that might be because everything's still very new. You mean the exterior shadows around the map--building, tress, etc.--or the shadows cast inside the cockpit? Now I'm curious. Gonna have to look. I hope it's not one of those, "I didn't bother me, until you mentioned it." kind of things...LOL

morpwr
01-12-2016, 16:49
I saw the texture thing mentioned numerous times. I guess a lot of people forget it...LOL Totally agree about the workshop files. That would make it extremely easy to find and install them. Yeah... I was really loving rF2. I'm going put some more time in AMS, and then go back to compare. But I'm pretty sure one of the two will become my new go to. The feel in both is just too good.

I honestly hadn't noticed the missing shadows, but that might be because everything's still very new. You mean the exterior shadows around the map--building, tress, etc.--or the shadows cast inside the cockpit? Now I'm curious. Gonna have to look. I hope it's not one of those, "I didn't bother me, until you mentioned it." kind of things...LOL


He was just out for a sunday drive so he had time to notice those things. You wont see them.lol

BigDad
01-12-2016, 23:09
I saw the texture thing mentioned numerous times. I guess a lot of people forget it...LOL Totally agree about the workshop files. That would make it extremely easy to find and install them. Yeah... I was really loving rF2. I'm going put some more time in AMS, and then go back to compare. But I'm pretty sure one of the two will become my new go to. The feel in both is just too good.

I honestly hadn't noticed the missing shadows, but that might be because everything's still very new. You mean the exterior shadows around the map--building, tress, etc.--or the shadows cast inside the cockpit? Now I'm curious. Gonna have to look. I hope it's not one of those, "I didn't bother me, until you mentioned it." kind of things...LOL

Interior cockpit shadows.
Yeah, it's gonna bug you now. lol
I've been playing AMS for quite a while and the whole time had something annoying me and couldn't work it out until my 10 year old Son said "it just looks weird without shadows" now every time i play thats all i see. Hence why RFactor2 is my go to. Thank me later.

BigDad
01-12-2016, 23:12
He was just out for a sunday drive so he had time to notice those things. You wont see them.lol

Isn't pCars still your go to? lol

morpwr
02-12-2016, 11:53
Isn't pCars still your go to? lol

HaHA At least we all have a sense of humor. No actually its r3e but pcars is still good and I'm still working on automobilista. I might get rfactor 2 this weekend and see how that works. But the races in r3e are just so good that's become my go to when it works.:mad:

BigDad
02-12-2016, 12:06
HaHA At least we all have a sense of humor. No actually its r3e but pcars is still good and I'm still working on automobilista. I might get rfactor 2 this weekend and see how that works. But the races in r3e are just so good that's become my go to when it works.:mad:

LoL
R3E has lost me a bit ,I don't know what it is but after AMS and rFactor 2 R3E feels a bit wooden and i just find slides hard to catch %( , along with the lack of tyre management . Its another one that is good to have and go back to as they patch it .
Ive got $20 still in Steam and trying to figure out whether to get more content for R3E or grab the Porsche packs in AC?
i did do quite a few laps around pCars Imola in rain with a Ruf RGT 8 and it did feel pretty sweet with complete default settings,all i did was lower gain from 5.0? to 1.0 and went for it and could feel just about everything . Might be worth putting my PS4 settings in and having a crack .

GrimeyDog
02-12-2016, 12:30
LoL
R3E has lost me a bit ,I don't know what it is but after AMS and rFactor 2 R3E feels a bit wooden and i just find slides hard to catch %( , along with the lack of tyre management . Its another one that is good to have and go back to as they patch it .
Ive got $20 still in Steam and trying to figure out whether to get more content for R3E or grab the Porsche packs in AC?
i did do quite a few laps around pCars Imola in rain with a Ruf RGT 8 and it did feel pretty sweet with complete default settings,all i did was lower gain from 5.0? to 1.0 and went for it and could feel just about everything . Might be worth putting my PS4 settings in and having a crack .

I caught the Holiday Deal and bought all the Content for R3E... I Havent played it in a bit but it was a good deal so it was well worth the $35.00 investment to get all the cars and Tracks i didn't have.... as they patch R3E Im sure i will get back to R3E some time in the Future... arent they suppised to be overhauling the Graphics engine??? i know they are upgrading the Automobilsta Graphics engine.... I have the full package for that as well but i havent played it for a bit either... Just Too Many Settings to Mess with.

BigDad
02-12-2016, 14:43
I caught the Holiday Deal and bought all the Content for R3E... I Havent played it in a bit but it was a good deal so it was well worth the $35.00 investment to get all the cars and Tracks i didn't have.... as they patch R3E Im sure i will get back to R3E some time in the Future... arent they suppised to be overhauling the Graphics engine??? i know they are upgrading the Automobilsta Graphics engine.... I have the full package for that as well but i havent played it for a bit either... Just Too Many Settings to Mess with.

Yeah , i think they are all getting a face lift , i just hope they don't delve to deep into the physics side of rFactor 2 and AMS.

Haiden
02-12-2016, 15:57
LoL
R3E has lost me a bit ,I don't know what it is but after AMS and rFactor 2 R3E feels a bit wooden and i just find slides hard to catch %( , along with the lack of tyre management . Its another one that is good to have and go back to as they patch it .
Ive got $20 still in Steam and trying to figure out whether to get more content for R3E or grab the Porsche packs in AC?
i did do quite a few laps around pCars Imola in rain with a Ruf RGT 8 and it did feel pretty sweet with complete default settings,all i did was lower gain from 5.0? to 1.0 and went for it and could feel just about everything . Might be worth putting my PS4 settings in and having a crack .

I agree with you about R3E. I still love it, because the AI gives you a great race experience, and it's extremely immersive. But I do like the physics and FFB of rF3 and AMS more. That's not to say R3E has bad FFB. I like it a lot. I just like the feel of rF2 and AMS better. That being said, total package-wise. R3E does have better graphics than rF2. AMS, once you get the graphics dialed in through the GPU, looks better than R3E and rF2, especially if you enable the SweetFX plug-in.

The AC Porsche packs are pretty sweet. The Cayman GT4 is so much fun. Ever since it came out, it's basically all you see on the MP servers lists...LOL The 918 Spyder is a beast to tame, but fun. I've got the packs 1 and 2, but haven't tried anything from 2 yet.

Haiden
02-12-2016, 16:03
HaHA At least we all have a sense of humor. No actually its r3e but pcars is still good and I'm still working on automobilista. I might get rfactor 2 this weekend and see how that works. But the races in r3e are just so good that's become my go to when it works.:mad:

If you get rF2, you're gonna love the FFB. There are only two dials to set--global gain and the in-car gain. You need to download the PedalOverlay plug-in, because it also has an FFB meter in it. But because of the simplicity of the settings, it won't take more than 10-15 to get the FFB dialed in. And what's truly amazing, is how good it feels with so little configuration effort. A true testament to idea that complexity doesn't always mean or equate to quality.

Just remember... AMS's FFB and physics are actually better, and so are the graphics. If you keep that in mind, I think you'll then find yourself highly motivated to get AMS dialed in. :)

Edit: are you still have trouble getting into R3E?

Haiden
02-12-2016, 16:06
Get some mods from Racedepartment . Paul G.(cant remember his last name ,lol) has heaps . A 18 track mega pack has all the usual and more and pretty much live up to Reiza standards .

Thanks, downloaded his track yesterday, lots of good stuff. Also got the EEC tracks and a few cars. It's gonna take a while for me to get through all this. The track list in-game is like a mountain now...LOL

morpwr
02-12-2016, 18:44
If you get rF2, you're gonna love the FFB. There are only two dials to set--global gain and the in-car gain. You need to download the PedalOverlay plug-in, because it also has an FFB meter in it. But because of the simplicity of the settings, it won't take more than 10-15 to get the FFB dialed in. And what's truly amazing, is how good it feels with so little configuration effort. A true testament to idea that complexity doesn't always mean or equate to quality.

Just remember... AMS's FFB and physics are actually better, and so are the graphics. If you keep that in mind, I think you'll then find yourself highly motivated to get AMS dialed in. :)

Edit: are you still have trouble getting into R3E?

Yes it really starting to aggravate me. I may have figured it out last night but until I try it for a few days/hours I wont know for sure. If it worked one of the boxes in the firewall was unchecked and when I had steam check it I saw something about flashplayer installing popup for a second so maybe? After that it came right on and worker perfect.What I don't understand is if its on my end how can it work at all?

Haiden
02-12-2016, 19:21
Yes it really starting to aggravate me. I may have figured it out last night but until I try it for a few days/hours I wont know for sure. If it worked one of the boxes in the firewall was unchecked and when I had steam check it I saw something about flashplayer installing popup for a second so maybe? After that it came right on and worker perfect.What I don't understand is if its on my end how can it work at all?

Oh, yeah... make sure you do a file verification in Steam to check/correct any installation issues. If you think it's a firewall issue, next time you have problems, just disable to firewall and see if that solves the issue. If it does, then you at least know where to start working. Might just need to create an exception rule for something in your firewall settings. Strange, because my problems stopped as soon as Sector3 resolved the update issues.

morpwr
02-12-2016, 20:07
Oh, yeah... make sure you do a file verification in Steam to check/correct any installation issues. If you think it's a firewall issue, next time you have problems, just disable to firewall and see if that solves the issue. If it does, then you at least know where to start working. Might just need to create an exception rule for something in your firewall settings. Strange, because my problems stopped as soon as Sector3 resolved the update issues.

That's actually what I was checking for and r3e was the only thing that didn't have both boxes checked for some reason. I checked both verified it and it started working so heres hoping it works now. I still don't understand how if the problem was on my end it could work at all though.

BigDad
02-12-2016, 23:49
Formula Trucks just added to AMS if you have the Beta ;) They are pretty fun!

This is my last tip for AMS ,
In cockpit view (recommended) the mirrors are kind of off ,weird and blank with no rear wing visible , so got to..
Documents/AMS/userdata/user name/user name , and scroll down to graphics and find "self in rear view" and change this line from 0 to 1 then save .Now load game and in options there is self in rear view option turn on and now the mirrors actually feel like they are your mirrors .

Haiden
03-12-2016, 14:13
Formula Trucks just added to AMS if you have the Beta ;) They are pretty fun!

This is my last tip for AMS ,
In cockpit view (recommended) the mirrors are kind of off ,weird and blank with no rear wing visible , so got to..
Documents/AMS/userdata/user name/user name , and scroll down to graphics and find "self in rear view" and change this line from 0 to 1 then save .Now load game and in options there is self in rear view option turn on and now the mirrors actually feel like they are your mirrors .

I have the Beta, but haven't booted it up yet. Anything new in it, other than the trucks? They sounds fun. Might give 'em try. Still dialing things in in the main game. Everything feels good, just going through the classes I like and getting the max gain set correctly. I'm starting to understand why they went with .ini files for the in-car FFB gains. The range is huge? I was tuning the BMW E90, the default was like .2500, and I kept going up and up, and thought something was wrong when I got to .9999, but then I noticed there were other cars--from the initial install--with gains of like .12400. Being able to rescale the gain by that much allows you so much fine tuning. And the closer you get to your sweet spot, the more amazing the car begins to feel, until finally you find yourself ignoring the pit lane...LOL

gotdirt410sprintcar
03-12-2016, 18:21
Whats up guys, just picked up AC on the ps4 lol just wondering what FFB settings you guys using thanks. O my T500 is fine delete pcars fixed so now I have two wheels back up I guess

GrimeyDog
04-12-2016, 15:13
Oculus Rift, Watkins Short Ford 2+2 Mustang.
Im Hooked on VR!!! I couldnt have Beat My Old time of 1:30.xxx if i wasnt using VR!!! When i set that 1:30.xxx a few Months ago it was Hard work...I jumped in the 2+2 Mustang just to try it with the Oculus and Beat My Old time by 1.5 secs on the First Lap!!! that tweeked Me to go to TT and see what i could get... It took 3 laps to get #1!!!

That car is a beast to control My on screen Hand movement are pretty much 1 to 1 with My RL hand movement...steer counter steer it just fights you and wants to break loose through every turn!!!

VR just made the car feel Very natural...Even the way the screen looks tilted to the Left!!! that's the game simulating how the Old Muscle cars would dig in with that Left rear and try to pull the front right wheel off the ground... Nope that's not Me sitting there with My head tilted:p...Morpwr i know you know that Old muscle car tilt I'm talking about:encouragement:

@Haiden i know we don't talk Much but I Really think you would enjoy VR!!! I have Never been a Big Fan to Race Open wheel cars but i will tell you that Open wheel cars are absolutely the Best VR Racing Experience!!! Sim Racer to Sim Racer.

I think i can even beat this time...I pulled back so i could stick the lap...there is definitely a tad bit more time to be gained and even more time to be gained if car suspension was tuned:yes:



http://youtu.be/6O_oaWazsZs

Haiden
04-12-2016, 19:48
I'm sure I would. Gonna wait for the next gen headsets, though.

BigDad
04-12-2016, 23:47
Good lap and nice time but that flickering on the grandstands and the pop in/out is very distracting. Couldn't you turn God rays off and reduce mirrors amd probably more to help increase distance.
I think I'll wait for next gen vr also.

Haiden
05-12-2016, 01:46
Good lap and nice time but that flickering on the grandstands and the pop in/out is very distracting. Couldn't you turn God rays off and reduce mirrors amd probably more to help increase distance.
I think I'll wait for next gen vr also.

One of the things I heard in a couple of reviews was that, at least for sim racing, the draw distances can be a little short. They said it wasn't much of an issue for tracks they knew well. But new tracks, or ones where they relied on markers for braking, got a little tricky, because they couldn't make some things out in the distance, until they popped in.

GrimeyDog
05-12-2016, 01:56
http://youtu.be/sYEpuA5wNZY

morpwr
05-12-2016, 02:32
http://youtu.be/sYEpuA5wNZY

My big question with those is how are you supposed to use a button box? I just don't see them being as popular with serious sim racers for that reason but I could be wrong.

GrimeyDog
05-12-2016, 03:04
Good lap and nice time but that flickering on the grandstands and the pop in/out is very distracting. Couldn't you turn God rays off and reduce mirrors amd probably more to help increase distance.
I think I'll wait for next gen vr also.

I was thinking to wait for the next gen VR also but decided to try out the CV1... its much much better than I thought...The Flickering is barely even noticeable when racing, I just Hide the crowds with the VR settings when I was dialing in My settings to get max FPS... the flickering is more of a Pcars Graphics problem the Flickering Graphics always happen at the same places its Not Random...Dirt Rally and other VR games play Flicker free...as far as the Draw distance its like playing in 1080p....Most important I have no problem maintaining 90+ FPS for Smooth Game play Even with 16 car grid and thunderstorm... 10 series cards should have No issue getting Maximum performance in VR... its all about proper settings EX: I have Grass detail turned Off but when you Look at the grass in VR it looks Really good.

Turn The Sun Rays Off??? Never!!! That's 1 of the most awesome parts of VR...The immersion and realism that effect adds is awesome.

its just something you have to try for yourself...just too many variables...

I bought it to try it out... Holiday return Rule shopping is great!!! Extended time to return for a full refund...I think until 2nd week in Jan... But screw that I'm Not taking it back its that GOOD!!!

Edit: Graphics wise its Not as Detailed as My UHD TV...I have definitely be4en spoiled by 4k gaming Graphics but immersion wise its Miles ahead of My TV set up... The driving POV is spot on but can be fine tuned and adjusted to personal taste... you actually feel as if you are Really in the Car when you look around... Its like i can Really just Hang My Arm out the Car window or put My controler down on the Passenger Seat or Floor It Really looks like its there!!! No Graphics Glitching at all...You can clearly see which curbs you can use and which curbs to avoid... TV does not give a accurate sense of just how high some of those curbs really are.

morpwr
05-12-2016, 03:12
Whats up guys, just picked up AC on the ps4 lol just wondering what FFB settings you guys using thanks. O my T500 is fine delete pcars fixed so now I have two wheels back up I guess

I haven't played on the ps4 in a while but it doesn't take much to get something decent. Youll probably have an easier time if you turn the gain down and start bumping it up. If its too high youll lose a lot of detail from the ffb.

GrimeyDog
05-12-2016, 03:26
My big question with those is how are you supposed to use a button box? I just don't see them being as popular with serious sim racers for that reason but I could be wrong.

For me I don't really Need a Button box... I map my Buttons to my wheel...But think about it when you pushing a button on your wheel how many times do you look down at it??? when I reach for My Shifter I never look down for it even in VR My hand goes straight to it same thing for My head lights, wind shield wipers, Pause and back buttons on the wheel... you just know where stuff is at by instinct and feel...Consistency??? VR makes hitting the same apex lap after lap sooo much easier...I can be sooo much more aggressive with the throttle and brakes because VR just makes it feel sooo Natural.

morpwr
05-12-2016, 11:58
For me I don't really Need a Button box... I map my Buttons to my wheel...But think about it when you pushing a button on your wheel how many times do you look down at it??? when I reach for My Shifter I never look down for it even in VR My hand goes straight to it same thing for My head lights, wind shield wipers, Pause and back buttons on the wheel... you just know where stuff is at by instinct and feel...Consistency??? VR makes hitting the same apex lap after lap sooo much easier...I can be sooo much more aggressive with the throttle and brakes because VR just makes it feel sooo Natural.

I know what you mean about knowing where things are but I'm just not sure its going to work with 20 buttons and knobs. The shifter and buttons on the wheel are one thing but you don't have time to be fumbling around making sure youre actually touching the brake bias.lol

Haiden
05-12-2016, 12:55
I know what you mean about knowing where things are but I'm just not sure its going to work with 20 buttons and knobs. The shifter and buttons on the wheel are one thing but you don't have time to be fumbling around making sure youre actually touching the brake bias.lol

Same goes for between games. Some of the controls simply can't be mapped the same, because they either don't function the same way or aren't present in other games. The buttons change also. Like the upper right and left row of buttons on the Fanatec F1 rim aren't in the same order as the similarly positioned buttons on the Porsche rim. It's a little annoying, because my push to talk for Crew Chief changes position between rims. In a long race, though (or something with increased tire wear), you need to be able to adjust bias and AR.

GrimeyDog
05-12-2016, 13:48
I know what you mean about knowing where things are but I'm just not sure its going to work with 20 buttons and knobs. The shifter and buttons on the wheel are one thing but you don't have time to be fumbling around making sure youre actually touching the brake bias.lol

For Me i just Map what i Need Most... Im Not changing Brake Bias and such on the Fly...

Only buttons i use Head Lights, Windshild wipers, auto Clutch off/on and Pause... I have Change View Mapped but hardly use it....

But Dont get Me wrong im Not Getting Rid of the TV some game are just Not ment for VR... But for Driving Sims VR is Really working for Me... Its would be hard to go back to TV with Pcars/Dirt Rally... But AC VR is Take it or Leave it... The AC VR Needs more work.

As far as Switching Rims the GT Rim KERS button is the only Button i had to Move... I moved it to the Button under the Right thumb Stick that Makes it the Top Right End button on the F1 Rim... No big deal as Most GT cars Dont have KERS and when they do its Mostly Pedal Position Activated... F1 Cars are the only cars with Push Button KERS.... I have DRS top Left End Button and thats the Same on Both Rims for when im Driving the DTM Merc.

GrimeyDog
05-12-2016, 20:13
I made these wheel button templates a while ago...I don't think i ever posted them before...if so i don't remember:confused:...I figured i would post them...maybe they will help others with Button mapping...

Button positions are current with the Last Few Fanatec FW's they haven't changed the button config in a bit.

gotdirt410sprintcar
06-12-2016, 04:06
I haven't played on the ps4 in a while but it doesn't take much to get something decent. Youll probably have an easier time if you turn the gain down and start bumping it up. If its too high youll lose a lot of detail from the ffb.

Yeah pretty simple really I have got these settings right now 25, 80,40,8,on for now only have a hour on The game I do like it though.

morpwr
06-12-2016, 12:01
Yeah pretty simple really I have got these settings right now 25, 80,40,8,on for now only have a hour on The game I do like it though.

Wait until it catches up to the pc version. There is/was so much missing from the ps4 version and I think a lot of the tire models are still behind on the ps4. I haven't played the ps4 version since getting the pc but it was a lot different a few months ago.

morpwr
07-12-2016, 23:10
Well I don't feel like a complete idiot anymore. They had to get neils involved because we have no idea why my pedals wont work in automobilista but work just fine in every other game. I have to say they are an absolutely awesome company to deal with. Its been a long time since ive seen a company this customer oriented. It sucks I cant play automobilista right now but I dont feel bad about it at all because I know it will get straightened out.:D If your on the fence about whos pedals to buy when spending that kind of money this kind of service goes along way when making a choice.

Haiden
08-12-2016, 00:45
Well I don't feel like a complete idiot anymore. They had to get neils involved because we have no idea why my pedals wont work in automobilista but work just fine in every other game. I have to say they are an absolutely awesome company to deal with. Its been a long time since ive seen a company this customer oriented. It sucks I cant play automobilista right now but I dont feel bad about it at all because I know it will get straightened out.:D If your on the fence about whos pedals to buy when spending that kind of money this kind of service goes along way when making a choice.

Have you add this? If not, subscribe to it. It's a way better interface. Same controls, just easier on the eyes. :)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=554367473&searchtext=

morpwr
08-12-2016, 01:40
Have you add this? If not, subscribe to it. It's a way better interface. Same controls, just easier on the eyes. :)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=554367473&searchtext=

I did actually. I have to say I was shocked how good that is being an older game. Now if I ever get my pedals to work with automobilista I can ask you about the ini files for adjusting the ffb.

morpwr
08-12-2016, 01:56
Have you add this? If not, subscribe to it. It's a way better interface. Same controls, just easier on the eyes. :)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=554367473&searchtext=

Ever try turning off tc and abs in ac? I honestly don't know why I left it on because I don't use it in anything else. Its a lot better with it off. They actually got the loose part really right if you turn them off.

Haiden
08-12-2016, 04:12
Ever try turning off tc and abs in ac? I honestly don't know why I left it on because I don't use it in anything else. Its a lot better with it off. They actually got the loose part really right if you turn them off.

Yeah... I never turned them on. PCars was the only one I was running assists with, had it set to real. But when I switched to PC, I turned assists off. The braking in AC is a lot trickier with no assists. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
08-12-2016, 05:43
I know all you guys are on Pc but can you use a HUD dash on AC ps4?

morpwr
08-12-2016, 11:46
I know all you guys are on Pc but can you use a HUD dash on AC ps4?

Isnt there an option for that on the side?

GrimeyDog
08-12-2016, 15:57
I dont know if you have a Micro Center Near you... But they are Selling a Playseat Rig with T300 bundle for $499.00!!! Thats a Great Price!!! You can order off line also.... Tomorrow is the Last day for that sale.... So Hurry if your interested!!!

Go to the website and look up T300 or Playseat the Bundle should come up... Its Not on their Front page but i Know this is the Bundle i get their sales flyer by Email

GrimeyDog
09-12-2016, 11:28
VR seems to be working well for Me:yes:.. im .5xx secs faster on My Fastest Tracks!!! some Tracks even 1.5secs faster!!! Laguna Seca in VR im lapping at 1:23.5xx or Lower!!! i used to really have to be in the Zone to break 1:22.xxx Im Now Breaking 1:22.5xx or Lower with ease!!! I almost broke the 1:21.xxx mark a few times!!! I just Need to Clean up the Last corner before the finish line... I havent mastered that corner yet... But im workin on it... LOL..... I was Going to wait fr Next Gen VR also but this Gen VR is Much Much Better than i thought it would Be:yes:... If Next Gen VR gets Even Better.... WOW!!!

morpwr
24-12-2016, 15:59
Merry Chistmas!!!!!!! Hope everyone has a safe and happy holidays

Shogun613
24-12-2016, 16:02
Merry Chistmas!!!!!!! Hope everyone has a safe and happy holidays
Same to you and your family!
Best holiday wishes to everyone on these forums!

Haiden
24-12-2016, 17:25
Ditto. Best wishes to everyone. :)

GrimeyDog
25-12-2016, 02:18
Merry Christmas!!!

gotdirt410sprintcar
25-12-2016, 03:15
Hope you guys bought me something merry Christmas too all. Well you all are broke from all the spending you guys have done in last few months lol

poirqc
25-12-2016, 13:05
Merry Xmas everyone!

Haiden
26-12-2016, 15:42
If you guys haven't tried the Low Vertical Load - Classic option in Jack's latest tweaker set (v3.0.1), you should give them a shot. The lower Fz and SoP-Diff, really make a difference. :)

I sign up for a month of iRacing. Gonna give it a shot over the break and see if it lives up to the hype. :)

Roger Prynne
26-12-2016, 17:57
^ That's the one I use, but I have to add some smoothing for my wheel.

RACERJC
01-01-2017, 17:24
Happy New Year!

As the gods of FFB can you assist me? My T500RS works perfectly on my PS3 and calibrates/updates fine on my PC but will not even calibrate or be recognised on my PS4... losing my mind!!

Appreciated!

GrimeyDog
03-01-2017, 13:20
Hello Tahoe Good Bye Fuel Economy:p

Been Gone for a Bit... Had to Make a Run to thank Santa for the Nice Man Toy Gift:yes:

Happy New Year to All.

rosko
12-01-2017, 18:54
I know some of you guys are running 4k monitors on here & have recent builds. I looking to upgrade my monitor just not sure whether to go for 4k or high hz & 2k. Any of you wish you chose some thing else or have recommendations? Its really for non driving games as i use a rift for those.

GrimeyDog
14-01-2017, 01:55
I know some of you guys are running 4k monitors on here & have recent builds. I looking to upgrade my monitor just not sure whether to go for 4k or high hz & 2k. Any of you wish you chose some thing else or have recommendations? Its really for non driving games as i use a rift for those.

The Rift is great isn't it!!!
with that said i barely use My TV any more you maybe should consider a high Refresh rate monitor especially if your playing Call of Duty type games/Fast action shooters...Look it up on youtube there are many detailed comparison videos to help you get a better idea of what you are looking for and what to expect FPS VS 4k:very_drunk:

morpwr
26-01-2017, 12:20
To all the thrustmaster guys. If youre on pc you need the pcracer.lol It blows the t300 out of the water even though the online reviews kind of downplay how good it really is. Its like playing a different game for the first time using the new wheel with the exact same settings. Except having to turn min force off in ac. I would guess probably on the same level as the fanatec guys have had for a while. Hopefully thrustmaster comes out with a ps4 version of this wheel for the guys on console because it really is that good.

konnos
26-01-2017, 18:21
Actually we need a DD base, we just can't justify the cost ;D

morpwr
26-01-2017, 18:47
Actually we need a DD base, we just can't justify the cost ;D

We do for sure but at this point I'm pretty happy. If youre on the fence and don't want to spend the cash for a dd this is a good midpoint id say. I'm planning on an accuforce at some point but for right now this is really nice plus I didn't have to buy anymore wheels. I cant imagine how good a dd wheel must be even at 13nm like accuforce the difference has to be huge. After having the t300 I see why we need stronger motors now. It leaves room so you can feel the other forces besides just the weight. I couldn't believe how much more road feel I got in ac last night. I think a good wheel is under estimated at this point. Not that you cant do it without one but I beat everyone of my old laptimes last night easily by quite a bit because I was much more confident in what I was feeling.

GrimeyDog
26-01-2017, 19:07
What is the "PCRacer"???

morpwr
26-01-2017, 19:09
What is the "PCRacer"???

The new thrustmaster wheel for pc only at this point. Its along the same lines as the v2 id guess with the strength.

poirqc
26-01-2017, 20:18
What is the "PCRacer"???

http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_US/products/ts-pc-racer

morpwr
27-01-2017, 13:52
Hopefully they add support for this wheel soon because I cant get it to work with pcars:(

Gamer82678
28-01-2017, 03:23
I wonder how this is gonna be ? :confused: :cool:

I wanna get my paws on this ! :cool: :p :rolleyes: https://youtu.be/74FtElq7mdA

morpwr
29-01-2017, 15:17
I wonder how this is gonna be ? :confused: :cool:

I wanna get my paws on this ! :cool: :p :rolleyes: https://youtu.be/74FtElq7mdA

That's been known about for a while but with it being tied to gt it could be years before you see it.lol If they can make it better then the pc racer it will really good.

GrimeyDog
30-01-2017, 12:06
Wooohooo.... Im Finally on Windows 1607 (Anniversary Edition) and everything works as it should.. No more Micro Stuttering:yes:
also Now that the New Kabby Lake CPU specs are in it seems that those of us that have Recent Sky Lake PC builds are Still really Good and there is No Need to Upgrade...While some Kabby Lake specs are Higher the performance diff is Minimal so to upgrade would be a waste of $$$.

Haiden
04-02-2017, 15:49
Haven't been playing PCars much over the past couple months, so when I booted it up yesterday, the FFB just felt odd, compared to other titles I've been playing. Not really a surprise, but I can honestly say that I don't feel such a variance when switching between my other titles. So I decided to play with the FFB a bit and see if I could get it closer to the others sims.

I, left Jack's tweaker files in place, but reset the globals to default (no scoops or any PWM for drag reduction). I was seeing a lot of clipping in the telemetry, which seemed weird because after tuning in other games (especially AMS which is done by feel, because there's no FFB meter), I've gotten pretty good at detecting soft clipping, and hard clipping is very easy to detect. But I just wasn't feeling the level of clipping the meter was showing. I lowered RAC and reduced the TF to 75 from the default 100. The telemetry clipping was gone. From there, I started playing with different FF/TF combinations, leaving everything else at default. At one point, I tried a setting of FF/TF at 35/100. And this is where I lost of all faith in PCars' telemetry meter and the FFB system itself. With FF/TF at 35/100 the feedback in my wheel was extremely light, and yet the telemetry was still showing a lot of hard clipping. Given the extremely light feel of the wheel, there is no way there should have been any clipping occurring, but the telemetry line was constantly stalling at the top and bottom limits in the window. The FFB was way lighter than other settings that didn't show any clipping in the window, and also way lighter than I've ever run feedback in my V2. The feedback I was feeling felt like only 20-30% of what the hardware is capable of, and yet the telemetry was showing lots of hard clipping.

I don't know why this is, and really don't care. It's simply enough to convince me that there's something wrong with the FFB system in PCars, which is something I started becoming more and more aware of when I switched to PC and started trying other sim titles. For me, this telemetry fluke just confirms it.

After that discovery, I refused to waste much additional time on FFB tuning, and quickly settled on an FF/TF mix of 75/75, with RAC@85. Everything else was left at default. Surprisingly, this actually feels closer to the FFB in other sims (AC, AMS, rF2, R3E) than my old settings or any other settings I've tried. It's not the best FFB in my library, but it no longer feels like such an oddball in comparison.

Anyway...just want to share that bit about the telemetry window. It doesn't make any sense to me. You can test it yourself. Just set RAC=85 and FF/TF to 35/100. You'll get a really light wheel, but see lots of clipping in the window. I was testing on Nurburgring GP. Also, I'm using a Fanatec V2. There were issues with how FF worked with Fanatec wheels on console, so this could be a Fanatec only issue.

bmanic
04-02-2017, 20:43
I don't know why this is, and really don't care. It's simply enough to convince me that there's something wrong with the FFB system in PCars, which is something I started becoming more and more aware of when I switched to PC and started trying other sim titles. For me, this telemetry fluke just confirms it.

The telemetry works just fine, it's your interpretation and intuition of what it should be showing that is wrong.. but who cares about data or facts? Go with intuition and "feeling".. that's always been the correct way to try and understand things. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Also.. don't use Jack's files, they over ride everything in the game car setup and can easily cause clipping on it's own.

Yes, the FFB system of pCars is complicated but it's NOT impossible to understand. It's quite frustrating to see from the sidelines how so many people just give up and jump to conclusions that "things are broken" instead of doing some proper investigating.

I'm not sure how advanced you are when it comes to understanding the FFB system but I take it that you don't have full grasp of it as you are using Jacks files. Do you know what those files do? Do you know what they over ride (making some ingame settings useless)? Do you actually know what Tire Force stands for, what it does? Do you know at what point the telemetry screen is in the complete FFB system? (hint: it's NOT at the very end of the line, where the data FFB data is sent to the wheel driver).

Yes, it could be a Fanatec only problem you've discovered but because you say you put FF (I assume this means the Force Feedback output slider) to less than 100 it's more likely that you just don't understand what you are doing. It's of course possible Fanatec wheels work differently but at least on PC, with both Logitech and Thrustmaster wheels the FF output slider should never be less than 100. If you set it to less you are artificially cutting off the dynamic range. Any clipping is always created BEFORE this slider. This just scales the signal to the driver.. which means you can create a scenario where you are 100% clipping the wheel while still having no FFB at all.

Haiden
04-02-2017, 21:54
The telemetry works just fine, it's your interpretation and intuition of what it should be showing that is wrong.. but who cares about data or facts? Go with intuition and "feeling".. that's always been the correct way to try and understand things. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Also.. don't use Jack's files, they over ride everything in the game car setup and can easily cause clipping on it's own.

Yes, the FFB system of pCars is complicated but it's NOT impossible to understand. It's quite frustrating to see from the sidelines how so many people just give up and jump to conclusions that "things are broken" instead of doing some proper investigating.

I'm not sure how advanced you are when it comes to understanding the FFB system but I take it that you don't have full grasp of it as you are using Jacks files. Do you know what those files do? Do you know what they over ride (making some ingame settings useless)? Do you actually know what Tire Force stands for, what it does? Do you know at what point the telemetry screen is in the complete FFB system? (hint: it's NOT at the very end of the line, where the data FFB data is sent to the wheel driver).

Yes, it could be a Fanatec only problem you've discovered but because you say you put FF (I assume this means the Force Feedback output slider) to less than 100 it's more likely that you just don't understand what you are doing. It's of course possible Fanatec wheels work differently but at least on PC, with both Logitech and Thrustmaster wheels the FF output slider should never be less than 100. If you set it to less you are artificially cutting off the dynamic range. Any clipping is always created BEFORE this slider. This just scales the signal to the driver.. which means you can create a scenario where you are 100% clipping the wheel while still having no FFB at all.

Here's what I do know. Every other sim I play is pretty much plug and play when it comes to FFB, and they all feel way better. Since I've been playing PCars, I've tried countless different approaches and settings, including yours. They all vary slightly, but none of them feel any better than the other sims I've been playing. So whether it's Jack's, yours, or the settings I spent months tweaking, they are simply okay, but not great in the overall scope of sims. That's my opinion. If you disagree, fine. I've investigated the FFB in PCars long enough, well over a year. Other titles, it's taken all of a few hours or days to get the FFB sorted out. Is PCars complex? Yes. But that complexity does't result in a superior feel, so what's the point in endless fiddling, chasing a unicorn? I'm no FFB engineer. Nor do I want to be. I want to race, not fiddle endlessly with FFB settings ad nauseum.

Yes. You're right about FF. It's been a while, and I forgot that it comes at the end of the chain. I do understand that. And do feel that I know what I'm doing--god knows I've be at it long enough. Am I an expert? I seriously doubt it, and don't claim to be. Don't even know what qualifies one to hold such title. Maybe you do. I'm sure you know more than I do about it. But then again, that's really my point. You shouldn't have to be an expert to tune your FFB in a sim. And you definitely shouldn't have to be an expert to say you don't like it. Because, if that's a requirement, then I guess there's really no room for dissent, is there?

Also, the telemetry window shouldn't show things that aren't relevant. Every other sim has a simple FFB meter, and that's more than enough--if it's clipping it's either above the line or turning red. PCars doesn't even let you see how far it's going above the line you are, which makes it hard to see how much clipping there is. AC for example, let you see how high and long you're past the limit, so you can decide whether or not, or how much clipping to allow. AMS doesn't have a meter, and yet, it's still ten times easy to tune the FFB than PCars. Go figure.

Anyway... if you love it, fine, be happy. I don't, and I just shared my opinion. Not looking for confirmation or agreement. It's a public forum and I shared my thoughts. I was wrong about the clipping showing with low FF, but that doesn't change my overall opinion, the FFB is overly complicated and feels unrealistic and disconnected. And no, I still don't care why. I like ice cream, but I'm not an ice cream maker, so I don't care how they make it. It either tastes good or it doesn't. I don't need the recipe to judge the taste of it.

Hopefully things are better in PCars2.

gotdirt410sprintcar
05-02-2017, 00:14
Not too intrud on you guys I agree with both. I have never played any sim on PC so I no nothing about it.. All we have is AC for another sim that is based on PC not saying pcars wasn't. Now iracing RFactor AC are all laser scanner tracks this would really help pcars don't know how many that are but I think all need too be might help the FFB feel IMO or just make it easier

bmanic
05-02-2017, 00:45
Here's what I do know. Every other sim I play is pretty much plug and play when it comes to FFB, and they all feel way better. Since I've been playing PCars, I've tried countless different approaches and settings, including yours. They all vary slightly, but none of them feel any better than the other sims I've been playing. So whether it's Jack's, yours, or the settings I spent months tweaking, they are simply okay, but not great in the overall scope of sims. That's my opinion. If you disagree, fine. I've investigated the FFB in PCars long enough, well over a year. Other titles, it's taken all of a few hours or days to get the FFB sorted out. Is PCars complex? Yes. But that complexity does't result in a superior feel, so what's the point in endless fiddling, chasing a unicorn? I'm no FFB engineer. Nor do I want to be. I want to race, not fiddle endlessly with FFB settings ad nauseum.

Yes. You're right about FF. It's been a while, and I forgot that it comes at the end of the chain. I do understand that. And do feel that I know what I'm doing--god knows I've be at it long enough. Am I an expert? I seriously doubt it, and don't claim to be. Don't even know what qualifies one to hold such title. Maybe you do. I'm sure you know more than I do about it. But then again, that's really my point. You shouldn't have to be an expert to tune your FFB in a sim. And you definitely shouldn't have to be an expert to say you don't like it. Because, if that's a requirement, then I guess there's really no room for dissent, is there?

Also, the telemetry window shouldn't show things that aren't relevant. Every other sim has a simple FFB meter, and that's more than enough--if it's clipping it's either above the line or turning red. PCars doesn't even let you see how far it's going above the line you are, which makes it hard to see how much clipping there is. AC for example, let you see how high and long you're past the limit, so you can decide whether or not, or how much clipping to allow. AMS doesn't have a meter, and yet, it's still ten times easy to tune the FFB than PCars. Go figure.

Anyway... if you love it, fine, be happy. I don't, and I just shared my opinion. Not looking for confirmation or agreement. It's a public forum and I shared my thoughts. I was wrong about the clipping showing with low FF, but that doesn't change my overall opinion, the FFB is overly complicated and feels unrealistic and disconnected. And no, I still don't care why. I like ice cream, but I'm not an ice cream maker, so I don't care how they make it. It either tastes good or it doesn't. I don't need the recipe to judge the taste of it.

Hopefully things are better in PCars2.

Look, I won't disagree with you about what feels good or not. I'm simply telling you a FACT that the clipping metering is not broken, like you stated earlier. It works precisely as intended. You just don't seem to have any idea at all where in the signal chain it is or how the various main FFB strength and output sliders work. It's like you are randomly tweaking stuff without actually understanding anything. Considering the amount of parameters involved and the way the FFB chain works, you may as well just go play the lottery.

I 100% agree with you that the FFB system is overly complicated. I also agree with you and everybody else that it could be a LOT better right out of the box. Heck I fought for better settings right up until release (and post release) but it never got changed.. well, it did once get changed to something even much worse (which is why we now have a "classic" preset which are the settings that were there from release).

Can't reveal much but yes, things are much better in pCars 2. :)

EDIT: Oh, and you say you've tried my settings. Have you tried the latest discoveries from GrimeyDog? If you bear with me a single moment more, then do this:

1) DELETE all Jack Spade stuff from your pCars 2 directory. Make 100% sure they are not affecting the game in any way (keep a backup somewhere though)
2) Reset all controller settings to vanilla/default
3) Make sure you have FFB Strength/aka FF within the game set to 100 (this is so friggin important that it isn't even funny that this option is available on PC, it shouldn't even be there)
4) Make sure Damper Saturation set to ZERO
5) Once that is done, select the "Classic" preset in the FFB Calibration menu
6) Remove any Scoop from it (set knee to zero)
7) Set TIRE FORCE to 120 (and then fine-tune each car's master scale in case FFB is clipping too much or is too hard)
8) Now choose a car, something that is KNOWN to work.. some cars are just plain weird and buggy and will NEVER have good FFB, no matter how much you tweak.. choose for instance a basic GT3 car like the Aston Martin
9) Go into it's GARAGE and select the Force Feedback tab. Here's what you do for EVERY SINGLE CAR, quick simple tweak, for every car. No fine tuning, no fussing about.. let's keep it super simple:

- Fx to 10
- Fy to 70
- Fz to 70 (this one you can also leave at 100 and test it that way)
- Arm Angle to 2500

Remember to do these things for each and every individual car. Yes it's a chore but you only need to do them once and you can do it quick. You could also make a .xml file for each car, just like the Jack Spade stuff but I do not recommend this because it becomes tricky to set the Master Scale. Just keep it all within the game to keep it simple. These settings are "broad general strokes".. I of course fine-tune these for each car to get it "perfect" but this works as a really good starting point. All credit for finding out about the nasty Fx side effects goes to GrimeyDog. He found the "pCars is slightly weird" parameter and it really does help a lot to turn it completely off or at the very least turn it down to small values like 10 or 14.

Anyhow. That's it. You're done.

FAQ:

Q: FFB is way too heavy. Should I reduce the Force Feedback strength in the game from 100 to something lower?
A: Absolutely friggin not. Do not EVER touch this control. It should be at 100 and never ever set to anything else. You need to lower the FFB strength either at the very beginning of the chain (in this case it's Tire Force / Master Scale per car) or at the end of the chain, that means your WHEEL. Either do it from a "control panel" within windows (this is how it's done on Logitech and Thrustmaster wheels) or on the wheel itself (Should be possible on Fanatec wheels). Never. Ever. Touch. The. FF. Parameter. In. pCars. It must be 100. Period.

Q: .. but, should I just..
A: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Q: Ok, well.. what if there is heavy clipping on a specific car?
A: Go into the individual cars setup menu and make sure you've put Fx to zero and Fy & Fz to 70. If you've done this and it still clips a lot, then lower the individual car's Master Scale parameter until the bad clipping goes away. Remember: A little clipping is fine. Constant non-stop clipping for several seconds is bad.

bmanic
05-02-2017, 00:50
Not too intrud on you guys I agree with both. I have never played any sim on PC so I no nothing about it.. All we have is AC for another sim that is based on PC not saying pcars wasn't. Now iracing RFactor AC are all laser scanner tracks this would really help pcars don't know how many that are but I think all need too be might help the FFB feel IMO or just make it easier

No. Laser scanning just helps with the "rumble" of the fine detail from a track (and of course very accurate dips/crests/camber etc which is truly valuable and the main reason laser scanning is so awesome). Anybody who wants to drive fast and use FFB as a tool to understand car control doesn't need this rumble at all. It's irrelevant. It's a minor detail that may help a little bit in immersion (which is ironic because a REAL steering wheel, in a REAL car doesn't shake and wobble like crazy when you drive around an asphalt track. Heck it doesn't even do it on a rough surface like gravel. Most of that shaking and uneveness of a track is felt through the seat, not the steering wheel).

gotdirt410sprintcar
05-02-2017, 02:18
I run it like that for ever FX 10 too 20 just running Jack's stuff now but I did lower it last night I was thinking it don't stay long and it's already strong force you could feel the change. I'm going to bump my FFB up to hundred and test some t500 ohh boy

Edit. I'm happy with my settings now not chasing it but it's fun trying something different race it for a couple days online then change it back.lol

Haiden
05-02-2017, 02:22
Look, I won't disagree with you about what feels good or not. I'm simply telling you a FACT that the clipping metering is not broken, like you stated earlier. It works precisely as intended. You just don't seem to have any idea at all where in the signal chain it is or how the various main FFB strength and output sliders work. It's like you are randomly tweaking stuff without actually understanding anything. Considering the amount of parameters involved and the way the FFB chain works, you may as well just go play the lottery.

I 100% agree with you that the FFB system is overly complicated. I also agree with you and everybody else that it could be a LOT better right out of the box. Heck I fought for better settings right up until release (and post release) but it never got changed.. well, it did once get changed to something even much worse (which is why we now have a "classic" preset which are the settings that were there from release).

Can't reveal much but yes, things are much better in pCars 2. :)

EDIT: Oh, and you say you've tried my settings. Have you tried the latest discoveries from GrimeyDog? If you bear with me a single moment more, then do this:

1) DELETE all Jack Spade stuff from your pCars 2 directory. Make 100% sure they are not affecting the game in any way (keep a backup somewhere though)
2) Reset all controller settings to vanilla/default
3) Make sure you have FFB Strength/aka FF within the game set to 100 (this is so friggin important that it isn't even funny that this option is available on PC, it shouldn't even be there)
4) Make sure Damper Saturation set to ZERO
5) Once that is done, select the "Classic" preset in the FFB Calibration menu
6) Remove any Scoop from it (set knee to zero)
7) Set TIRE FORCE to 120 (and then fine-tune each car's master scale in case FFB is clipping too much or is too hard)
8) Now choose a car, something that is KNOWN to work.. some cars are just plain weird and buggy and will NEVER have good FFB, no matter how much you tweak.. choose for instance a basic GT3 car like the Aston Martin
9) Go into it's GARAGE and select the Force Feedback tab. Here's what you do for EVERY SINGLE CAR, quick simple tweak, for every car. No fine tuning, no fussing about.. let's keep it super simple:

- Fx to ZERO (it actually becomes 0.01
- Fy to 70
- Fz to 70 (this one you can also leave at 100 and test it that way)
- Arm Angle to 2500

Remember to do these things for each and every individual car. Yes it's a chore but you only need to do them once and you can do it quick. You could also make a .xml file for each car, just like the Jack Spade stuff but I do not recommend this because it becomes tricky to set the Master Scale. Just keep it all within the game to keep it simple. These settings are "broad general strokes".. I of course fine-tune these for each car to get it "perfect" but this works as a really good starting point. All credit for finding out about the nasty Fx side effects goes to GrimeyDog. He found the "pCars is slightly weird" parameter and it really does help a lot to turn it completely off or at the very least turn it down to small values like 10 or 14.

Anyhow. That's it. You're done.

FAQ:

Q: FFB is way too heavy. Should I reduce the Force Feedback strength in the game from 100 to something lower?
A: Absolutely friggin not. Do not EVER touch this control. It should be at 100 and never ever set to anything else. You need to lower the FFB strength either at the very beginning of the chain (in this case it's Tire Force / Master Scale per car) or at the end of the chain, that means your WHEEL. Either do it from a "control panel" within windows (this is how it's done on Logitech and Thrustmaster wheels) or on the wheel itself (Should be possible on Fanatec wheels). Never. Ever. Touch. The. FF. Parameter. In. pCars. It must be 100. Period.

Q: .. but, should I just..
A: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Q: Ok, well.. what if there is heavy clipping on a specific car?
A: Go into the individual cars setup menu and make sure you've put Fx to zero and Fy & Fz to 70. If you've done this and it still clips a lot, then lower the individual car's Master Scale parameter until the bad clipping goes away. Remember: A little clipping is fine. Constant non-stop clipping for several seconds is bad.

I already said that I forgot about FF being out of the chain. So, no the system isn't broken. It's just sucks, IMHO. I am no expert; I admit this and bow to your wisdom. But I'm not just messing with dials, as you say. I do have a basic understanding of how it works. However, as I stated before, it's just insanely complicated--beyond what any consumer should have to deal with--and I just want to race. So I'm sure the voodoo you posted above will work, but I just don't have the will to go through all that. I have no vested interest in this title, and don't feel like spending anymore time tweaking. I've already wasted enough on it, and the fact that "discoveries" are being made almost two years after the release is, frankly, just absurd. I have five other sims that all feel great out of the box, and like butter with a few hours of tweaking. I just don't need the hassle that is PCars FFB. I'll go back and set FF to 100 and try adjusting the force from the wheel, but I have to say I'm a little confused as to why SMS would make FF=50 the default, if FF=100 is a mandatory must, as you say. Apparently, they either lack your expertise, or just get a kick out confusing their consumers. But I'm assuming they have intimate working knowledge of the system they built, so I remain thoroughly confused as to why the default FF is 50. And, like I said before, FF/TF 75/75 actually feels a lot better than most of the settings I've tried, and also more like the sims I own.

Sorry... But after spending time in other sims and community forums, enjoying great out of the box FFB and accurate physics and listening to people with many years of sim experience, I've just lost my taste for the complex almost supernatural voodoo-like tweaking required to get PCars to feel right. I sincerely hope PCars2 improves and simplifies the FFB system. But my patience and tolerance for PCars1 has worn frustratingly thin. I rarely play the game anymore, so what's the point in jumping through more hoops? Yes. I was wrong in my initial post about FF. Unfortunately, that doesn't change a thing about how I feel about PCars. Lowering FF was something I just tried the other day. But I've been playing with FF=100 pretty much since the game released, and it hasn't made one bit of difference. When I was console, I didn't know any better. PCars felt lightyears better than Forza, and I was happy. However, as soon as I went to PC and started playing other sims, it became painfully obvious that PCars' has issues.

Jack Spade
05-02-2017, 08:18
I already said that I forgot about FF being out of the chain. So, no the system isn't broken. It's just sucks, IMHO. I am no expert; I admit this and bow to your wisdom. But I'm not just messing with dials, as you say. I do have a basic understanding of how it works. However, as I stated before, it's just insanely complicated--beyond what any consumer should have to deal with--and I just want to race. So I'm sure the voodoo you posted above will work, but I just don't have the will to go through all that. I have no vested interest in this title, and don't feel like spending anymore time tweaking. I've already wasted enough on it, and the fact that "discoveries" are being made almost two years after the release is, frankly, just absurd. I have five other sims that all feel great out of the box, and like butter with a few hours of tweaking. I just don't need the hassle that is PCars FFB. I'll go back and set FF to 100 and try adjusting the force from the wheel, but I have to say I'm a little confused as to why SMS would make FF=50 the default, if FF=100 is a mandatory must, as you say. Apparently, they either lack your expertise, or just get a kick out confusing their consumers. But I'm assuming they have intimate working knowledge of the system they built, so I remain thoroughly confused as to why the default FF is 50. And, like I said before, FF/TF 75/75 actually feels a lot better than most of the settings I've tried, and also more like the sims I own.

Sorry... But after spending time in other sims and community forums, enjoying great out of the box FFB and accurate physics and listening to people with many years of sim experience, I've just lost my taste for the complex almost supernatural voodoo-like tweaking required to get PCars to feel right. I sincerely hope PCars2 improves and simplifies the FFB system. But my patience and tolerance for PCars1 has worn frustratingly thin. I rarely play the game anymore, so what's the point in jumping through more hoops? Yes. I was wrong in my initial post about FF. Unfortunately, that doesn't change a thing about how I feel about PCars. Lowering FF was something I just tried the other day. But I've been playing with FF=100 pretty much since the game released, and it hasn't made one bit of difference. When I was console, I didn't know any better. PCars felt lightyears better than Forza, and I was happy. However, as soon as I went to PC and started playing other sims, it became painfully obvious that PCars' has issues.

Haiden, Iīm really surprised that youīve been running into the FFB Master trap after this thing has been discussed to death not only in this thread. bmanic has been bashing against me
since the days of WMD (though you may ask yourself why thousands and thousands of people around the globe are using my files), and yes itīs about the only thing in the pC1 FFB
system I agree to him - this bloody thing needs to be at 100%, remember?... itīs post all calculation including the monitor. I also agree this system is a bit complicated, but thatīs
the price for total FFB tuning.

Edit: An other thing, I developed the files by assessing all forces on all cars and documented everything (donīt think anybody else went that far).
From that experience I have learned the physics spits out much different data even among the same group of cars, so a single global tweaker file
will never be working properly for all cars, a young kid already understands that the FA is something different than the Clio for instance. Suggesting
the levels to be the same for any type of car and if then certain cars feel completely off and claiming to be buggy is misleading.

Haiden
05-02-2017, 15:35
Haiden, Iīm really surprised that youīve been running into the FFB Master trap after this thing has been discussed to death not only in this thread. bmanic has been bashing against me
since the days of WMD (though you may ask yourself why thousands and thousands of people around the globe are using my files), and yes itīs about the only thing in the pC1 FFB
system I agree to him - this bloody thing needs to be at 100%, remember?... itīs post all calculation including the monitor. I also agree this system is a bit complicated, but thatīs
the price for total FFB tuning.

Edit: An other thing, I developed the files by assessing all forces on all cars and documented everything (donīt think anybody else went that far).
From that experience I have learned the physics spits out much different data even among the same group of cars, so a single global tweaker file
will never be working properly for all cars, a young kid already understands that the FA is something different than the Clio for instance. Suggesting
the levels to be the same for any type of car and if then certain cars feel completely off and claiming to be buggy is misleading.

I do understand all of that. All I'm saying is that when I run FF=100, like I've been doing since the game launched, PCars' FFB feels like an oddball in my sim library, and not in a good way. I honestly didn't notice that until I went to PC. And outside this forum, in other communities, a lot of experienced guys think PCars' FFB feels unrealistic. My only comparison are the other sims I own (AC, iRacing, R3E, AMS, and rF2), which all have different, but yet similar feeling FFB. I'm not recommending PCars FF be set lower than 100. I'm just saying that, for the hour or so that I was playing with settings, FF/TF = 75/75 seemed to feel more inline with how others sims feel, and I wasn't getting as much extraneous chatter. Admittedly, there was a loss a range, which seemed to be mostly coming from the lower end, and I assumed it was because of an increased deadzone. But the noise, for lack of a better term, that seems specific to PCars was also gone. With FF at 100, there's just a lot going on in the wheel that I just don't think is realistic and question how helpful it is with regards to communicating relevant information. I'm going to reset the FF to 100 and try lowering the force at the wheel to see if that makes a difference.

But to clarify... I'm not running into the FFB Masters trap. I'm simply questioning why the trap was set in the first place. And I'm sorry, I just can't escape or ignore this flaw in logic: If FF is always supposed to be set at 100, then one: why is the SMS default 50? And two: why is there even an FF scale to begin with, allowing the user to change it? Basically, why did SMS set this trap for people to fall into?

If that question has been answered somewhere, I'm sorry, I missed it. But I haven't seen anyone explain this? And it just seems silly that the scale was included if the FF was supposed to be locked at 100. And third, but not logic-defying like the above, why is/was there no consensus from the dev side on the FFB system? Other sims release with very few adjustment sliders, mostly focused on overall gain and the amount of canned effects to add to the mix. But they've determined the core feel/settings and locked those, basically saying... "We've already figured things out, and this is what we think is the best FFB for the models we created." Why wasn't SMS able to come to same consensus/final decision on FFB?

Edit: My questions stem from genuine curiosity, not criticism.

GrimeyDog
05-02-2017, 17:07
Haiden, Iīm really surprised that youīve been running into the FFB Master trap after this thing has been discussed to death not only in this thread. bmanic has been bashing against me
since the days of WMD (though you may ask yourself why thousands and thousands of people around the globe are using my files), and yes itīs about the only thing in the pC1 FFB
system I agree to him - this bloody thing needs to be at 100%, remember?... itīs post all calculation including the monitor. I also agree this system is a bit complicated, but thatīs
the price for total FFB tuning.

Edit: An other thing, I developed the files by assessing all forces on all cars and documented everything (donīt think anybody else went that far).
From that experience I have learned the physics spits out much different data even among the same group of cars, so a single global tweaker file
will never be working properly for all cars, a young kid already understands that the FA is something different than the Clio for instance. Suggesting
the levels to be the same for any type of car and if then certain cars feel completely off and claiming to be buggy is misleading.

No one has been bashing against you Jack Spade...IMO you have a personal Quest for Glory and refuse to work with others...IMO it seems that many have tried to work with you but you Reject any ideas that are not your own...It doesn't matter how many people use your settings its just proof that the Blind have and always will lead the Blind....Hmmm even seems that some of your loyal supporters Now that they have Knowledge and have tested other settings/Games etc are Now aware of what Good FFB feels like:applause: and are Questioning your settings feel:hopelessness:

The FFB system is and always has been bigger than 1 persons idea or Quest for Glory...it really would have made Pcars a better game for all if all tweekers could have stood united as 1...each of us has made breakthroughs or discoveries that could have been Combined and honed into Universal/Wheel Specific/Platform specific tweek format....at the end of the Day SMS really Hurt their own profits because they Never stepped into intervene to explain the FFB system and how to best use it.

RAG: sets Max power of the FFB system...since the system intuitive power level is 1.0 it serves to reason that RAG be set at 1.0...Note RAG is also a Static power source it will always maintain the level it is set to...it will allow forces within it to operate at any value within its perimeter but will Not allow any force to rise above its set max value...EX 1.0

"Quote from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement:yes:"

RAB: Bleed Off FFB forces/Power to create changes in wheel weight Creating FFB Feel.

RAC: Sets the Power Cut Off level of FFB Forces within the FFB system...Ex: just like a fan when you turn off the power the Fan blades keep spinning until the residual power dissipates...The FFB system is the same way...Just because the RAC cuts the power to the FFB Effects at 85 the FFB spikes will still rise until the residual power dissipates...This is why you get clipping!!! the RAC must be set Lower to accommodate for FFB Spikes.

TF = Global Spindle Master Scale...This can be tricky:confused: EX: TF 75 is always = to 75 this operates pretty much the same as RAG it is a limiter... It will allow Forces to operate within it at any value/power level but will only put out forces according to its set level. EX: Using High/Low in Car Masters sets the saturation of FFB forces but will Not affect the Final TF power out Put to the Global system. TF 75 = TF 75:yes:

Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!!
Link to original post below
http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...thread.105466/ (http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)

Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200

Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.

Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.

It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote

(http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)

IMO The FFB system is all about balanced Global settings... for me I Say TF 75 RAC 75 is the Solution....The Game master FFB is only there to allow the final at the wheel FFB strength to be adjusted for any wheel this is why it is added in After the Global settings does it work and has No impact or effect towards or within the FFB system...It Only affects the Final at the wheel FFB Strength...Wheels without on the wheel FFB settings the Game Master FFB Must be used to fine tune and adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength.


EDIT: also Note that using my Global settings TF/RAC 75 this allows the user to set DRF,DRR,,PWM,PWMS, Smoothing and damping to wheel used.
My masters and in car settings can be used for every car or the in car settings Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP settings can be adjusted to bring out the FFB feel that the user likes according to personal taste and the in car Masters can be used to adjust the FFB strength per car as Needed if needed to individual user taste with No Fear of Clipping...

Masters ~100 = Normal FFB saturation 1.00/100 No + or - to FFB effects.
Masters <100 = Reduced FFB saturation
Masters >100 = Greater FFB saturation

Note that no matter where you set the In car masters they are still Ruled by the TF(TF =Global spindle master Scale) and will Not cause or promote clipping as long as your RAC and TF and set Properly to compensate for Power spikes that can be caused by Hard Bumps or Heavy weight transfer loads.

Curbs and Bumps are static...the road doesn't change depending on the car your driving but each car will handle bumps and curb's according to the handling characteristics that have been programmed in for that specific car....Because Each car has been programmed with its own unique handling characteristics there is No need for Individual Car FFB Tuning one FFB Tune can Rule them All...Yes some may want or like to Create different FFB per car or even just FFB for a specific car/car Class But 1 FFB Can Rule them All...I have proven this with TF/RAC 75 Feel free to test for yourself:victorious:

There is nothing to debate only settings to test...My PDF can be found on the first page 3/4ths down the page...I welcome any and all to test the settings and Report back with true or false findings.

gotdirt410sprintcar
06-02-2017, 01:03
Well i been playing today ff 100 car masters 10 or so low in car settings other than mz 70 on up its not bad TF 100 as well. Isn't the incar master a linear scale? Thats the problem with it just so much going on with all settings and like bmaniac said the tuning part plays a roll in everything. I liked my FFB at 44 but this 100 almost feels like the settings i been using and i do use controler input 1 for 100 FF all three inputs have different damper settings that you can feel. With my 44 FF settings i was using input 3. I will see what i come up with lol

Jack Spade
06-02-2017, 08:03
I do understand all of that. All I'm saying is that when I run FF=100, like I've been doing since the game launched, PCars' FFB feels like an oddball in my sim library, and not in a good way. I honestly didn't notice that until I went to PC. And outside this forum, in other communities, a lot of experienced guys think PCars' FFB feels unrealistic. My only comparison are the other sims I own (AC, iRacing, R3E, AMS, and rF2), which all have different, but yet similar feeling FFB. I'm not recommending PCars FF be set lower than 100. I'm just saying that, for the hour or so that I was playing with settings, FF/TF = 75/75 seemed to feel more inline with how others sims feel, and I wasn't getting as much extraneous chatter. Admittedly, there was a loss a range, which seemed to be mostly coming from the lower end, and I assumed it was because of an increased deadzone. But the noise, for lack of a better term, that seems specific to PCars was also gone. With FF at 100, there's just a lot going on in the wheel that I just don't think is realistic and question how helpful it is with regards to communicating relevant information. I'm going to reset the FF to 100 and try lowering the force at the wheel to see if that makes a difference.

But to clarify... I'm not running into the FFB Masters trap. I'm simply questioning why the trap was set in the first place. And I'm sorry, I just can't escape or ignore this flaw in logic: If FF is always supposed to be set at 100, then one: why is the SMS default 50? And two: why is there even an FF scale to begin with, allowing the user to change it? Basically, why did SMS set this trap for people to fall into?

If that question has been answered somewhere, I'm sorry, I missed it. But I haven't seen anyone explain this? And it just seems silly that the scale was included if the FF was supposed to be locked at 100. And third, but not logic-defying like the above, why is/was there no consensus from the dev side on the FFB system? Other sims release with very few adjustment sliders, mostly focused on overall gain and the amount of canned effects to add to the mix. But they've determined the core feel/settings and locked those, basically saying... "We've already figured things out, and this is what we think is the best FFB for the models we created." Why wasn't SMS able to come to same consensus/final decision on FFB?

Edit: My questions stem from genuine curiosity, not criticism.

Back in the WMD days it was debated more than once and suggested by many people to have the default set at 100%, I even suggested to have it hard coded like that and
off the game (not considering consoles at this point). Only SMS can answer why they didnīt follow the suggestion, especially for a CSW v2 FF default at 50% makes no sense
at all. FF in game and on the wheel basically is the same thing.

If you think thereīs too much FFB going on in here, donīt use Relative Gain Adjust, at 1.0 is neutral and does nothing, use my Low Vertical Load files, set TF perhaps a
little lower than what you normally use, SG at 1.0, FF in game and on wheel at 100% in order to have full dynamic and avoiding an increased deadzone. All of that
should bring you much closer to the other games youīve mentioned.

bmanic
06-02-2017, 08:12
Haiden, Iīm really surprised that youīve been running into the FFB Master trap after this thing has been discussed to death not only in this thread. bmanic has been bashing against me
since the days of WMD (though you may ask yourself why thousands and thousands of people around the globe are using my files)

I'm not bashing against you dude.. I'm just stating my opinion (and always have) that your files make absolutely no sense to me. I've TRIED them several times, during WMD and also after. We create our FFB preferences in a completely different way. You made something like 50 cars FFB in a few days.. whereas I was driving a single car for a week, tweaking the FFB, always driving at least 10 laps or more, basing my settings on laptimes, more specifically: consistence of laptimes! If I couldn't drive 10 laps within 0.2 seconds lap variation, I knew the FFB was making the driving experience worse. It's always a good idea to have some kind of objective measuring system for anything that is related to "performance". You should know this as you deal with audio. The only way to be 100% certain that changes are valid and that you get "good data" is to do proper ABX blind testing (which is obviously impossible in a sim without access to a lot of random people) or set some kind of consistency testing (even this is very much prone to error but at least it is some sort of system).

You are obviously basing your FFB settings on "feel" or something else. There are so many FFB files in your collection that make no sense to me and my only reason for even using FFB is to help me drive faster. I don't care about "realism" or "making the wheel feel real". I just want a system that helps me lap faster and more consistently. Your files do not provide this.. and frankly, some of your settings are downright weird to me. It didn't help either that you churned out hundreds of files in a week. Tons of different versions of everything. Did you REALLY test everything thoroughly? Also, like you know, I'm not at all a fan of SoP. I think it is a really really bad idea and only leads to much worse driving habits.

It's also difficult to discuss these things with someone who doesn't drive all that fast. Last time we compared laptimes on WMD a long time ago I was something like 5 seconds faster than you per lap. This would make it difficult for you to understand my method as being so much slower would require you to first learn the basics before you could even feel the nuances and the effects FFB has on "driving at the limit" while trying to maximize consistency.

So yeah, I feel like you are on some kind of power trip and need some weird confirmation bias from a community. You seem to want and seek praise. I don't.. I don't give a damn about any of that. I speak my mind. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Heck, I've bashed GrimeyDog in the past too.. over and over. You don't see him complaining. I've also praised him for his Fx discovery and apologized for my skepticism for not trying it earlier. Like I said, I speak my mind and I ain't going to start sucking up to people now. I never have.

Jack Spade
06-02-2017, 09:38
I'm not bashing against you dude.. I'm just stating my opinion (and always have) that your files make absolutely no sense to me. I've TRIED them several times, during WMD and also after. We create our FFB preferences in a completely different way. You made something like 50 cars FFB in a few days.. whereas I was driving a single car for a week, tweaking the FFB, always driving at least 10 laps or more, basing my settings on laptimes. You are obviously basing your FFB settings on "feel" or something else. There are so many FFB files in your collection that make no sense to me and my only reason for even using FFB is to help me drive faster. I don't care about "realism" or "making the wheel feel real". I just want a system that helps me lap faster and more consistently. Your files do not provide this.. and frankly, some of your settings are downright weird to me.

So yeah, I feel like you are on some kind of power trip and need some weird confirmation bias from a community. You seem to want and seek praise. I don't.. I don't give a damn about any of that. I speak my mind. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Heck, I've bashed GrimeyDog in the past too.. over and over. You don't see him complaining. I've also praised him for his Fx discovery and apologized for my skepticism for not trying it earlier. Like I said, I speak my mind and I ain't going to start sucking up to people now. I never have.

Absolutely wrong....I have mentioned many times and in the post youīre partial quoting here that my files are based on a complete assessment on all forces on every single car,
was a very time consuming process which lasted several weeks, which now enables me to create different FFB interpretations based on data and of course fine tuned on track.

Power trip? All started back in the early WMD days cause the default FFB wasnīt very pleasing, lots of complaining and many people didnīt know what to with it and after I found
something that seemed to work better for me, I decided sharing it with the WMD forum and many people seemed to like it, except you of course. As this game was released I was
urged to continue posting in here too, that made it more popular.

GrimeyDog
06-02-2017, 11:18
I'm not bashing against you dude.. I'm just stating my opinion (and always have) that your files make absolutely no sense to me. I've TRIED them several times, during WMD and also after. We create our FFB preferences in a completely different way. You made something like 50 cars FFB in a few days.. whereas I was driving a single car for a week, tweaking the FFB, always driving at least 10 laps or more, basing my settings on laptimes, more specifically: consistence of laptimes! If I couldn't drive 10 laps within 0.2 seconds lap variation, I knew the FFB was making the driving experience worse. It's always a good idea to have some kind of objective measuring system for anything that is related to "performance". You should know this as you deal with audio. The only way to be 100% certain that changes are valid and that you get "good data" is to do proper ABX blind testing (which is obviously impossible in a sim without access to a lot of random people) or set some kind of consistency testing (even this is very much prone to error but at least it is some sort of system).

You are obviously basing your FFB settings on "feel" or something else. There are so many FFB files in your collection that make no sense to me and my only reason for even using FFB is to help me drive faster. I don't care about "realism" or "making the wheel feel real". I just want a system that helps me lap faster and more consistently. Your files do not provide this.. and frankly, some of your settings are downright weird to me. It didn't help either that you churned out hundreds of files in a week. Tons of different versions of everything. Did you REALLY test everything thoroughly? Also, like you know, I'm not at all a fan of SoP. I think it is a really really bad idea and only leads to much worse driving habits.

It's also difficult to discuss these things with someone who doesn't drive all that fast. Last time we compared laptimes on WMD a long time ago I was something like 5 seconds faster than you per lap. This would make it difficult for you to understand my method as being so much slower would require you to first learn the basics before you could even feel the nuances and the effects FFB has on "driving at the limit" while trying to maximize consistency.

So yeah, I feel like you are on some kind of power trip and need some weird confirmation bias from a community. You seem to want and seek praise. I don't.. I don't give a damn about any of that. I speak my mind. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Heck, I've bashed GrimeyDog in the past too.. over and over. You don't see him complaining. I've also praised him for his Fx discovery and apologized for my skepticism for not trying it earlier. Like I said, I speak my mind and I ain't going to start sucking up to people now. I never have.

I have 5 #1 Times with My settings... LOL... Was watching the New Ktx Bow lapping at Brathurst the other day and decided to test it on My Fav track of course Watkins short... LOL... after 3 aps i was only .500 off the #1 time so yup i decided to Focus a Bit and Got #1 with that car too...I get Good Laps on other tracks also top 20 or so.... I could get better times on them too but i just like Watkins short for testing because its Short and Fast!!! im Still using same settings every car and Stock Car tune!!!

What is your Steam Tag??? we xan Race or even just do some time Challenge laps.

I agree that its hard to discuss FFB Feel with some one who cant drive the cars at the Edge of Grip... Good FFB allows you to push a car to the limit while still maintaining control.

GrimeyDog
06-02-2017, 11:51
It would be interestimg to know what your Idea of what these settings do as compared to what i believe they do
TF
RAG
RAB
RAC

Bmanic/ Jack Spade Could you post your thoughts on what these settings do and How they should be used... This will Help Clarify alot of differences in How we each use the FFB system...We are all after the same thing it would be good if we could all share ideas it would really be Good for the Pcars Community as a whole... The FFB system is Bigger than 1 persons Idea.
I have posted what i believe they do and How they should be used a few post up.


Edit: I converted JS tweeker files with My settings and Currently use his tweeker file Method with My Settings so i No longer have to program in the FFB for every Car... JS even Helped Me to with this process...I did thank him a bit ago for that and Still Give Kudos to him for that.

Haiden
06-02-2017, 12:35
Back in the WMD days it was debated more than once and suggested by many people to have the default set at 100%, I even suggested to have it hard coded like that and
off the game (not considering consoles at this point). Only SMS can answer why they didnīt follow the suggestion, especially for a CSW v2 FF default at 50% makes no sense
at all. FF in game and on the wheel basically is the same thing.

If you think thereīs too much FFB going on in here, donīt use Relative Gain Adjust, at 1.0 is neutral and does nothing, use my Low Vertical Load files, set TF perhaps a
little lower than what you normally use, SG at 1.0, FF in game and on wheel at 100% in order to have full dynamic and avoiding an increased deadzone. All of that
should bring you much closer to the other games youīve mentioned.

Thanks for that information. It seems no one knows why SMS decided to confuse people. And, if the FF=100 is the rule, then it's absolutely mind-boggling as to why that's not the default. But your word choice is interesting. It was debated. So, I'm left to assume that not everyone on the development side agreed with the FF=100 rule?

Yes. I've already disabled the RAG, and that did improve the feel. I'll give your new suggestions a go and see how it feels. I tried adjusting FF at the wheel last night, and it felt exactly the same as it did lowering FF in-game by the same amount. I don't know if there's a difference between the PC driver control panel and the @wheel force setting, but I'm not changing my driver control panel for one game. The wheel has easy to change profiles that I can change on the fly, if I forget when switching games. Changing the control panel would just be a pain in the arse.

Thanks, though. I'll let you know how it feels.

Haiden
06-02-2017, 12:52
I'm not bashing against you dude.. I'm just stating my opinion (and always have) that your files make absolutely no sense to me. I've TRIED them several times, during WMD and also after. We create our FFB preferences in a completely different way. You made something like 50 cars FFB in a few days.. whereas I was driving a single car for a week, tweaking the FFB, always driving at least 10 laps or more, basing my settings on laptimes, more specifically: consistence of laptimes! If I couldn't drive 10 laps within 0.2 seconds lap variation, I knew the FFB was making the driving experience worse. It's always a good idea to have some kind of objective measuring system for anything that is related to "performance". You should know this as you deal with audio. The only way to be 100% certain that changes are valid and that you get "good data" is to do proper ABX blind testing (which is obviously impossible in a sim without access to a lot of random people) or set some kind of consistency testing (even this is very much prone to error but at least it is some sort of system).

You are obviously basing your FFB settings on "feel" or something else. There are so many FFB files in your collection that make no sense to me and my only reason for even using FFB is to help me drive faster. I don't care about "realism" or "making the wheel feel real". I just want a system that helps me lap faster and more consistently. Your files do not provide this.. and frankly, some of your settings are downright weird to me. It didn't help either that you churned out hundreds of files in a week. Tons of different versions of everything. Did you REALLY test everything thoroughly? Also, like you know, I'm not at all a fan of SoP. I think it is a really really bad idea and only leads to much worse driving habits.

It's also difficult to discuss these things with someone who doesn't drive all that fast. Last time we compared laptimes on WMD a long time ago I was something like 5 seconds faster than you per lap. This would make it difficult for you to understand my method as being so much slower would require you to first learn the basics before you could even feel the nuances and the effects FFB has on "driving at the limit" while trying to maximize consistency.

So yeah, I feel like you are on some kind of power trip and need some weird confirmation bias from a community. You seem to want and seek praise. I don't.. I don't give a damn about any of that. I speak my mind. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Heck, I've bashed GrimeyDog in the past too.. over and over. You don't see him complaining. I've also praised him for his Fx discovery and apologized for my skepticism for not trying it earlier. Like I said, I speak my mind and I ain't going to start sucking up to people now. I never have.

LOL... you don't need to be fast to tune FFB. Claiming one does, is just ridiculous chest beating. It's literally the equivalent of a professional team telling their second seat driver that his input isn't needed, valid, or less vital because he's not as fast as the first seat driver. Absolutely ridiculous.

Also, it stands to reason that one could be faster with unrealistic FFB. Not all forces complement a drive; some actively hinder it. By eliminating some of the realistic forces that slow you down, you could become faster. Just like a driver with a non-FFB wheel can take advantage of certain curbs and off-road slips, because he doesn't have to deal with the pull in the wheel yanking him off his line.

But you know... I'm no FFB expert, like you.

Also, maybe you should re-read and compare your response to my initial post and Jack's. Jesus... talk about power tripping. :rolleyes:

BTW... I'm confused. Are you bashing him or not? You seem to contradict yourself.

Sankyo
06-02-2017, 13:08
Guys, leave the personal attacks out of this please? You guys don't know each other personally so accusing the other guy of things you don't know anything about is way out of line.

Roger Prynne
06-02-2017, 13:20
If I remember correctly, back in the dev days we were asked to submit what FFB strength we thought was best for each individual wheel, this data was then used to set the default FFB strength in-game.
For example I myself and many others were using 80% for the G25, so that's what they used as the default setting in-game, same for other wheels.

But since then I think things changed in the way we look at the FFB, but the old defaults remained in-game.

I myself use 100%.

Jack Spade
06-02-2017, 14:32
If I remember correctly, back in the dev days we were asked to submit what FFB strength we thought was best for each individual wheel, this data was then used to set the default FFB strength in-game.
For example I myself and many others were using 80% for the G25, so that's what they used as the default setting in-game, same for other wheels.

But since then I think things changed in the way we look at the FFB, but the old defaults remained in-game.

I myself use 100%.

Back in the dev days it wasnīt clear to everybody that levels below 100% also increases the deadzone, I donīt think not many would have suggested 80% or whatever
if aware of the consequences.

Haiden
06-02-2017, 14:43
Why weren't those defaults adjusted in one of the many patches, particularly the one where they created the "Classic" and "Default" profiles? The increased deadzone issues was well known by then.

Jack Spade
06-02-2017, 15:34
Why weren't those defaults adjusted in one of the many patches, particularly the one where they created the "Classic" and "Default" profiles? The increased deadzone issues was well known by then.

The Classic and Default profiles came later with one of the updates to correct reported issues as something was changed on Steering Gain before, CSW v2 users were not
affected by this. BTW SG default always has been at 1.0 maximum and was adjustable (passive) for us WMD guys in the F1 menu before it became part of the FFB menu.
Again, only SMS can answer your question at this point.
IIRC the deadzone issue became more known as the guys started the FFB linearity thread, spreadsheet, wheelcheck etc.

GrimeyDog
06-02-2017, 19:19
Back in the dev days it wasnīt clear to everybody that levels below 100% also increases the deadzone, I donīt think not many would have suggested 80% or whatever
if aware of the consequences.

Im Not too sure about the Accuracy of the FFB tools being used.
IMO During actual Driving the Dead zone only increases due to the Low in Car Masters... When the Masters are set Very Low the FFB signal Wheel is soo faint that it Must be Boosted with100 GM FFB... Has this Fact ever Been Considered???

With My Current settings i use GM FFB 100 and on Wheel 50... But i can use 50 GM FFB and on wheel FFB 100 and have No Issue with a larger Dead Zone because of GM FFB 50.

The GM FFB 100 Rule Never Made Sense to Me because No wheel Manufacturer Recommends GM FFB 100 they all recommend 75--> 80 or Less...IMO this Rule has to be Error because No other Game has or Supports this GM FFB 100 Rule...The FFB is adjusted to ??? by the Game Devs and the rest is just play the Game.... there have also been Many Reports that TM wheels with GM FFB 100 become Less Linear, Break and Over Heat.

Pcars Has Very Strong FFB PC & Console... IMO the only Reason GM FFB 100 is Needed is because with Low in Car Masters the FFB signal is being Cut at the Source and unless Boosted with GM FFB 100 the Wheel is Not getting enough FFB signal to produce Propper FFB and when Not under Heavy Load Weight Transfer, Hard Bumps etc the wheel being starved for FFB signal input shows up as Dead Zone.

morpwr
06-02-2017, 19:43
Im Not too sure about the Accuracy of the FFB tools being used.
IMO During actual Driving the Dead zone only increases due to the Low in Car Masters... When the Masters are set Very Low the FFB signal Wheel is soo faint that it Must be Boosted with100 GM FFB... Has this Fact ever Been Considered???

With My Current settings i use GM FFB 100 and on Wheel 50... But i can use 50 GM FFB and on wheel FFB 100 and have No Issue with a larger Dead Zone because of GM FFB 50.

The GM FFB 100 Rule Never Made Sense to Me because No wheel Manufacturer Recommends GM FFB 100 they all recommend 75--> 80 or Less...IMO this Rule has to be Error because No other Game has or Supports this GM FFB 100 Rule...The FFB is adjusted to ??? by the Game Devs and the rest is just play the Game.... there have also been Many Reports that TM wheels with GM FFB 100 become Less Linear, Break and Over Heat.

Pcars Has Very Strong FFB PC & Console... IMO the only Reason GM FFB 100 is Needed is because with Low in Car Masters the FFB signal is being Cut at the Source and unless Boosted with GM FFB 100 the Wheel is Not getting enough FFB signal to produce Propper FFB and when Not under Heavy Load Weight Transfer, Hard Bumps etc the wheel being starved for FFB signal input shows up as Dead Zone.

Not only that but the validity of the scoop tools has come into question too with having zero resistance on the wheel when being tested. That never really made any sense to me because that isn't how we use them but what do I know? Why don't we need scoops in any other game and they feel fine. Rfactor,raceroom,ac don't need them and they all feel great. On console I treated the game master like a wheel master on pc. Game ffb at 100 makes sense on pc. Why turn it down twice? But even on pc I set the profiler to default 75. I guess if you want to look at from a music standpoint speakers sound good up to a certain point then the extra volume becomes distortion. Yes they are louder but it doesn't sound as good. There has to be a reason a company picks a default value for the ffb on a wheel. I'm sure its not a crap shoot but until someone that works for a wheel manufacturer tells us its all guessing.

bmanic
06-02-2017, 20:40
LOL... you don't need to be fast to tune FFB. Claiming one does, is just ridiculous chest beating. It's literally the equivalent of a professional team telling their second seat driver that his input isn't needed, valid, or less vital because he's not as fast as the first seat driver. Absolutely ridiculous.

Also, it stands to reason that one could be faster with unrealistic FFB. Not all forces complement a drive; some actively hinder it. By eliminating some of the realistic forces that slow you down, you could become faster. Just like a driver with a non-FFB wheel can take advantage of certain curbs and off-road slips, because he doesn't have to deal with the pull in the wheel yanking him off his line.

But you know... I'm no FFB expert, like you.

Dude, nice of you to completely disregard anything I said and forcefully twist the meaning. Nicely done.

You said it yourself, you can be faster with "unrealistic FFB".. exactly my point. It was what I was trying to do. I completely disregard the notion of "realistic FFB" and only use the effect for helping me to drive better. I raced iRacing for years without any FFB at all as it made me much faster. Quite a few of the faster drivers in the service still turn off all FFB as it's just in the way.

The whole point of "realistic FFB" is just ridiculous. Anybody who is tweaking FFB for some kind of realism is fooling themselves.. unless you are sitting in a 100 000$ motion rig with a proper direct drive servo based steering wheel. Everything else becomes "a toy" and never gets anywhere near real driving inputs anyhow, so why try desperately to force FFB to be "realistic"? Tons of people add rumble and "road feel" to their FFB in Assetto Corsa. Next time you drive on a dirt road or a bumpy backroad in any real car, take note of how little information the actual steering wheel gives you about small uneven details in the road. The fact that some people equate that "road feel" to "realism" is just bizarre in my opinion.

Another thing you keep missing is that all of this that has been discussed is completely and utterly subjective. The only OBJECTIVE parts, the very thing I had to correct you on (until you went on your rant) is how the FFB chain and order works in pCars. The telemetry screen isn't broken. It works. That part is objective and can be empirically proven. As soon as you want to discuss "feel" or what is "correct" it's entirely subjective.

I'm neither dismissing or belittling anybody who does things different from myself. I don't even care what settings they use. I just post my opinion about what works and what does not.. I also let people know of the exact method I use to find my settings and I let people know WHY I don't like or can't drive the settings they post. Information and sharing of that information is the only way to learn this complex system.

So yeah, you can think whatever you want of me but my main goal with coming here and discussing things, at this point in time, is to put a stop to any misinformation. You wrote a post that contained misinformation so I responded to counter it. Hopefully this helps somebody who happens to land on these forums in the future.

Haiden
06-02-2017, 20:45
I actually don't remember changing the master on my driver control panel, and it's set to 100. Using 100% gains is actually quite common in a lot of sims. I know quite a few people, myself included, running 100% gain in AC, AMS, rF2 and R3E. The force is then attenuated at the car-specific level. Even before I went to PC, I had read (years ago) that it's best to run 100% gain and attenuate at the lower level. That's one of the reasons the FF=100 rule resonated with me. Fine tuning is best done at the in-car level, and a good example would be AC's auto FFB profiler, which works at the in-car level to fine to the force gain for clipping. The sound analogy is accurate, but, IMO, the volume knob is the in-car slider, not the master gain, since the car/wheel would actually represent the speaker. The in-car slider is like the last control before the sound reaches the speaker.

rosko
06-02-2017, 21:21
I already said that I forgot about FF being out of the chain. So, no the system isn't broken. It's just sucks, IMHO. I am no expert; I admit this and bow to your wisdom. But I'm not just messing with dials, as you say. I do have a basic understanding of how it works. However, as I stated before, it's just insanely complicated--beyond what any consumer should have to deal with--and I just want to race. So I'm sure the voodoo you posted above will work, but I just don't have the will to go through all that. I have no vested interest in this title, and don't feel like spending anymore time tweaking. I've already wasted enough on it, and the fact that "discoveries" are being made almost two years after the release is, frankly, just absurd. I have five other sims that all feel great out of the box, and like butter with a few hours of tweaking. I just don't need the hassle that is PCars FFB. I'll go back and set FF to 100 and try adjusting the force from the wheel, but I have to say I'm a little confused as to why SMS would make FF=50 the default, if FF=100 is a mandatory must, as you say. Apparently, they either lack your expertise, or just get a kick out confusing their consumers. But I'm assuming they have intimate working knowledge of the system they built, so I remain thoroughly confused as to why the default FF is 50. And, like I said before, FF/TF 75/75 actually feels a lot better than most of the settings I've tried, and also more like the sims I own.

Sorry... But after spending time in other sims and community forums, enjoying great out of the box FFB and accurate physics and listening to people with many years of sim experience, I've just lost my taste for the complex almost supernatural voodoo-like tweaking required to get PCars to feel right. I sincerely hope PCars2 improves and simplifies the FFB system. But my patience and tolerance for PCars1 has worn frustratingly thin. I rarely play the game anymore, so what's the point in jumping through more hoops? Yes. I was wrong in my initial post about FF. Unfortunately, that doesn't change a thing about how I feel about PCars. Lowering FF was something I just tried the other day. But I've been playing with FF=100 pretty much since the game released, and it hasn't made one bit of difference. When I was console, I didn't know any better. PCars felt lightyears better than Forza, and I was happy. However, as soon as I went to PC and started playing other sims, it became painfully obvious that PCars' has issues.

I feel pretty much the same as you, I don't think anybody understands these setting personally as much as they say they do, imo the FFB in this game is just poor, that no combination of settings will feel right. It behaves in odd ways imo & feels unrealistic. You can probably understand the theory but there is something inherently wrong about it. I'm not saying the other games are perfect because the yall have there oddities but generally they are much closer to the goal.

gotdirt410sprintcar
06-02-2017, 21:44
Haiden like you just said car FFB in other games but i think its the same for pcars we are all on this train and we kind of following each other lol. bmanic is right about low master scales its just so much going on lol. They didn't crate a FFB system thats much different just we get to play with everything IMO.

GrimeyDog
06-02-2017, 22:19
The FFB system is and always has been bigger than 1 persons idea or Quest for Glory...it really would have made Pcars a better game for all if all tweekers could have stood united as 1...each of us has made breakthroughs or discoveries that could have been Combined and honed into Universal/Wheel Specific/Platform specific tweek format....at the end of the Day SMS really Hurt their own profits because they Never stepped into intervene to explain the FFB system and how to best use it.

RAG: sets Max power of the FFB system...since the system intuitive power level is 1.0 it serves to reason that RAG be set at 1.0...Note RAG is also a Static power source it will always maintain the level it is set to...it will allow forces within it to operate at any value within its perimeter but will Not allow any force to rise above its set max value...EX 1.0

"Quote from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber decribes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement:yes:"

RAB: Bleed Off FFB forces/Power to create changes in wheel weight Creating FFB Feel.

RAC: Sets the Power Cut Off level of FFB Forces within the FFB system...Ex: just like a fan when you turn off the power the Fan blades keep spinning until the residual power dissipates...The FFB system is the same way...Just because the RAC cuts the power to the FFB Effects at 85 the FFB spikes will still rise until the residual power dissipates...This is why you get clipping!!! the RAC must be set Lower to accommodate for FFB Spikes.

TF = Global Spindle Master Scale...This can be tricky:confused: EX: TF 75 is always = to 75 this operates pretty much the same as RAG it is a limiter... It will allow Forces to operate within it at any value/power level but will only put out forces according to its set level. EX: Using High/Low in Car Masters sets the saturation of FFB forces but will Not affect the Final TF power out Put to the Global system. TF 75 = TF 75:yes:

Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!!
Link to original post below
http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...thread.105466/ (http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)

Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200

Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.

Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.

It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote

(http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)

IMO The FFB system is all about balanced Global settings... for me I Say TF 75 RAC 75 is the Solution....The Game master FFB is only there to allow the final at the wheel FFB strength to be adjusted for any wheel this is why it is added in After the Global settings does it work and has No impact or effect towards or within the FFB system...It Only affects the Final at the wheel FFB Strength...Wheels without on the wheel FFB settings the Game Master FFB Must be used to fine tune and adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength.


EDIT: also Note that using my Global settings TF/RAC 75 this allows the user to set DRF,DRR,,PWM,PWMS, Smoothing and damping to wheel used.
My masters and in car settings can be used for every car or the in car settings Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP settings can be adjusted to bring out the FFB feel that the user likes according to personal taste and the in car Masters can be used to adjust the FFB strength per car as Needed if needed to individual user taste with No Fear of Clipping...

Masters ~100 = Normal FFB saturation 1.00/100 No + or - to FFB effects.
Masters <100 = Reduced FFB saturation
Masters >100 = Greater FFB saturation

Note that no matter where you set the In car masters they are still Ruled by the TF(TF =Global spindle master Scale) and will Not cause or promote clipping as long as your RAC and TF and set Properly to compensate for Power spikes that can be caused by Hard Bumps or Heavy weight transfer loads.

Curbs and Bumps are static...the road doesn't change depending on the car your driving but each car will handle bumps and curb's according to the handling characteristics that have been programmed in for that specific car....Because Each car has been programmed with its own unique handling characteristics there is No need for Individual Car FFB Tuning one FFB Tune can Rule them All...Yes some may want or like to Create different FFB per car or even just FFB for a specific car/car Class But 1 FFB Can Rule them All...I have proven this with TF/RAC 75 Feel free to test for yourself:victorious:

There is nothing to debate only settings to test...My PDF can be found on the first page 3/4ths down the page...I welcome any and all to test the settings and Report back with true or false findings.


It would be interesting to know what your Idea of what these settings do as compared to what i believe they do
TF
RAG
RAB
RAC

Bmanic/ Jack Spade Could you post your thoughts on what these settings do and How they should be used... This will Help Clarify alot of differences in How we each use the FFB system...We are all after the same thing it would be good if we could all share ideas it would really be Good for the Pcars Community as a whole... The FFB system is Bigger than 1 persons Idea.



Edit: I converted JS tweeker files with My settings and Currently use his tweeker file Method with My Settings so i No longer have to program in the FFB for every Car... JS even Helped Me to with this process...I did thank him a bit ago for that and Still Give Kudos to him for that.

Repost: These are My thoughts on what these settings do... i think this is very important info that can Help many.

it would be very Helpful to the Pcars community if Jack Spade and Bmanic would also add their input and knowledge as to what these settings do and how they feel they should be used...It would actually be Great if some one from SMS would step in to shed light on these settings.

We are all after the same thing... Good FFB:yes:

Chaos all over the Globe cant we at least unite as Sim racers for the Greater Good of the Sim racing community???

rosko
06-02-2017, 22:26
Dude, nice of you to completely disregard anything I said and forcefully twist the meaning. Nicely done.

You said it yourself, you can be faster with "unrealistic FFB".. exactly my point. It was what I was trying to do. I completely disregard the notion of "realistic FFB" and only use the effect for helping me to drive better. I raced iRacing for years without any FFB at all as it made me much faster. Quite a few of the faster drivers in the service still turn off all FFB as it's just in the way.

The whole point of "realistic FFB" is just ridiculous. Anybody who is tweaking FFB for some kind of realism is fooling themselves.. unless you are sitting in a 100 000$ motion rig with a proper direct drive servo based steering wheel. Everything else becomes "a toy" and never gets anywhere near real driving inputs anyhow, so why try desperately to force FFB to be "realistic"? Tons of people add rumble and "road feel" to their FFB in Assetto Corsa. Next time you drive on a dirt road or a bumpy backroad in any real car, take note of how little information the actual steering wheel gives you about small uneven details in the road. The fact that some people equate that "road feel" to "realism" is just bizarre in my opinion.

Another thing you keep missing is that all of this that has been discussed is completely and utterly subjective. The only OBJECTIVE parts, the very thing I had to correct you on (until you went on your rant) is how the FFB chain and order works in pCars. The telemetry screen isn't broken. It works. That part is objective and can be empirically proven. As soon as you want to discuss "feel" or what is "correct" it's entirely subjective.

I'm neither dismissing or belittling anybody who does things different from myself. I don't even care what settings they use. I just post my opinion about what works and what does not.. I also let people know of the exact method I use to find my settings and I let people know WHY I don't like or can't drive the settings they post. Information and sharing of that information is the only way to learn this complex system.

So yeah, you can think whatever you want of me but my main goal with coming here and discussing things, at this point in time, is to put a stop to any misinformation. You wrote a post that contained misinformation so I responded to counter it. Hopefully this helps somebody who happens to land on these forums in the future.

I get that you want to be faster & is the purpose of the FFB for you, but you are incorrect or maybe missing the point in your statement about realistic 'FFB'. Nobody thinks they are going to be fooled by sitting in there room playing a game but for many of us get as closed as possible does increase the enjoyment of the experience. So yes for many people having no FFB helps them go faster so that is what they do. I feel both goals are valid. I still feel that Pcars lacks the tools to get anything close to what other games get in terms of realism. I know you wil say that its subjective but thats the same as saying graphics are subjective.
Also to say any real car does not give road feel through the wheel well,(this old debate again :) I do:confused:. My steering wheel is incredibly sensitive to that, imo it really depends on the car you drive.

GrimeyDog
06-02-2017, 23:03
I get that you want to be faster & is the purpose of the FFB for you, but you are incorrect or maybe missing the point in your statement about realistic 'FFB'. Nobody thinks they are going to be fooled by sitting in there room playing a game but for many of us get as closed as possible does increase the enjoyment of the experience. So yes for many people having no FFB helps them go faster so that is what they do. I feel both goals are valid. I still feel that Pcars lacks the tools to get anything close to what other games get in terms of realism. I know you wil say that its subjective but thats the same as saying graphics are subjective.
Also to say any real car does not give road feel through the wheel well,(this old debate again :) I do:confused:. My steering wheel is incredibly sensitive to that, imo it really depends on the car you drive.

I Agree with this...But IMO Pcars definitely has the best FFB i have felt to date:yes: I'm Not bashing any 1...as Bmanic stated FFB is very subjective to individual preference:yes: For me My settings feel very natural and give Me all the info i Need to push the cars to the Limit...i can clearly feel when I'm at the edge of Grip and can Counter Steer/Throttle steer to catch slides instinctively:yes: without natural feeling FFB i don't think i could manage some of the times i get.

I guess what it all come down to is what do you like to feel most and or what you are most familiar with...to each their own

I would really like to come to common Ground and have discussion on what the global settings do and how other use them...the settings don't change their roll because Jack Spade ,Bmanic, GrimeyDog choose to use them differently.... they will only work correctly to provide Maximum FFB Effectiveness 1 way... to find common Ground on this will shed major light for all and may even open up new FFB tuning possibilities.

morpwr
06-02-2017, 23:13
I actually don't remember changing the master on my driver control panel, and it's set to 100. Using 100% gains is actually quite common in a lot of sims. I know quite a few people, myself included, running 100% gain in AC, AMS, rF2 and R3E. The force is then attenuated at the car-specific level. Even before I went to PC, I had read (years ago) that it's best to run 100% gain and attenuate at the lower level. That's one of the reasons the FF=100 rule resonated with me. Fine tuning is best done at the in-car level, and a good example would be AC's auto FFB profiler, which works at the in-car level to fine to the force gain for clipping. The sound analogy is accurate, but, IMO, the volume knob is the in-car slider, not the master gain, since the car/wheel would actually represent the speaker. The in-car slider is like the last control before the sound reaches the speaker.

Am I missing something? In ac I have gain at 1 and usually if I let the clipping tool set the in car I wind up at somewhere between 80-100 for most cars. That's at 75 on the profile screen for the wheel which winds up with a reasonable wheel weight. If I turned the profile screen up to 100 it would be way to strong. So somehow you need to control wheel weight. Even in pcars if you set the wheel at 100 and the ffb master at 100 you couldn't fill the hud and still get a reasonable wheel weight without turning down something limiting the ffb at the source. I get the theory that the wheel will be limited in range if the profile is turned down but honestly ive never noticed any real difference turning down the profile screen. To me it just makes more sense to get as much out as possible at the game level and just adjust the overall weight at the wheel. But this is an old argument that probably will never truly be answered unless someone from a wheel manufacturer gives us an answer. Id be interested to hear from somebody that tried pcars at a show what it felt like compared to what we have. I have a hard time believing sms had them on default settings.

morpwr
06-02-2017, 23:26
I Agree with this...But IMO Pcars definitely has the best FFB i have felt to date:yes: I'm Not bashing any 1...as Bmanic stated FFB is very subjective to individual preference:yes: For me My settings feel very natural and give Me all the info i Need to push the cars to the Limit...i can clearly feel when I'm at the edge of Grip and can Counter Steer/Throttle steer to catch slides instinctively:yes: without natural feeling FFB i don't think i could manage some of the times i get.

I guess what it all come down to is what do you like to feel most and or what you are most familiar with...to each their own

I would really like to come to common Ground and have discussion on what the global settings do and how other use them...the settings don't change their roll because Jack Spade ,Bmanic, GrimeyDog choose to use them differently.... they will only work correctly to provide Maximum FFB Effectiveness 1 way... to find common Ground on this will shed major light for all and may even open up new FFB tuning possibilities.

I agree its in there just wrong at this point. I do think they are on the right track and hope pcars 2 nails it this time.The grip feel is just weird like youre never connected to the road. Don't get me wrong you can ignore it and drive fast laps but other games are much easier to be comfortable in faster because it feels connected. Trust me I want pcars to work ive been around since day one when the game came out and spent hours upon hours trying to get it to feel right but nobody would still be here if anybody had got the perfect setup after almost 2 years...

Haiden
07-02-2017, 00:40
I get that you want to be faster & is the purpose of the FFB for you, but you are incorrect or maybe missing the point in your statement about realistic 'FFB'. Nobody thinks they are going to be fooled by sitting in there room playing a game but for many of us get as closed as possible does increase the enjoyment of the experience. So yes for many people having no FFB helps them go faster so that is what they do. I feel both goals are valid. I still feel that Pcars lacks the tools to get anything close to what other games get in terms of realism. I know you wil say that its subjective but thats the same as saying graphics are subjective.
Also to say any real car does not give road feel through the wheel well,(this old debate again :) I do:confused:. My steering wheel is incredibly sensitive to that, imo it really depends on the car you drive.

Same. In just about ever car I've ever owned, I can feel the texture of the road through the wheel. Some more than others, but it's definitely there. And from what I've read, so can professional drivers in race cars.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 00:58
Am I missing something? In ac I have gain at 1 and usually if I let the clipping tool set the in car I wind up at somewhere between 80-100 for most cars. That's at 75 on the profile screen for the wheel which winds up with a reasonable wheel weight. If I turned the profile screen up to 100 it would be way to strong. So somehow you need to control wheel weight. Even in pcars if you set the wheel at 100 and the ffb master at 100 you couldn't fill the hud and still get a reasonable wheel weight without turning down something limiting the ffb at the source. I get the theory that the wheel will be limited in range if the profile is turned down but honestly ive never noticed any real difference turning down the profile screen. To me it just makes more sense to get as much out as possible at the game level and just adjust the overall weight at the wheel. But this is an old argument that probably will never truly be answered unless someone from a wheel manufacturer gives us an answer. Id be interested to hear from somebody that tried pcars at a show what it felt like compared to what we have. I have a hard time believing sms had them on default settings.

I don't think you're missing anything. I just think there are multiple ways to do it. In AC, I have gain set to 1 and the Fanatec control panel set to 100%. Depending on the car, the in-game tuner usually recommends anywhere from 65-85%. For a few cars and tracks, though, the recommendation can be as high as 90-102%. But for consistency in feel, I always set each car to its lowest recommendation, regardless of whether or not the tool recommends more for certain tracks. If I had my driver control panel set to 75, I'm sure the average gain recommendation would be a lot higher gains. Does it feel different one way vs the other? IDK.

could_do_better
07-02-2017, 07:41
It depends on the precision of the math. If the precision is very high throughout the calculations you can set the gains at different points and get the same effect. If the precision is lower then high/low gains at the input/output will produce different results.

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 10:05
Im Not too sure about the Accuracy of the FFB tools being used.
IMO During actual Driving the Dead zone only increases due to the Low in Car Masters... When the Masters are set Very Low the FFB signal Wheel is soo faint that it Must be Boosted with100 GM FFB... Has this Fact ever Been Considered???

With My Current settings i use GM FFB 100 and on Wheel 50... But i can use 50 GM FFB and on wheel FFB 100 and have No Issue with a larger Dead Zone because of GM FFB 50.

The GM FFB 100 Rule Never Made Sense to Me because No wheel Manufacturer Recommends GM FFB 100 they all recommend 75--> 80 or Less...IMO this Rule has to be Error because No other Game has or Supports this GM FFB 100 Rule...The FFB is adjusted to ??? by the Game Devs and the rest is just play the Game.... there have also been Many Reports that TM wheels with GM FFB 100 become Less Linear, Break and Over Heat.

Pcars Has Very Strong FFB PC & Console... IMO the only Reason GM FFB 100 is Needed is because with Low in Car Masters the FFB signal is being Cut at the Source and unless Boosted with GM FFB 100 the Wheel is Not getting enough FFB signal to produce Propper FFB and when Not under Heavy Load Weight Transfer, Hard Bumps etc the wheel being starved for FFB signal input shows up as Dead Zone.

With the help of some guys in this thread : http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
....it should be clear to everybody that FF levels below 100% increases the deadzone which is there even on a CSW v2, in this case it doesnīt matter if this is adjusted
in game or on the wheel, the result remains the same. Also, it reduces the dynamic range the wheel could normally handle, BTW the CSW v2 FF default always was
and still is 100%, with this the deazone is at 5%, a FF level of 50% increases the deadzone to about 8-10%.
Skoader has shown that amplifying FFB with SG (default 1.0) causes a non linear response, this also happens if FOR on the CSW v2 is set above the default level.
Seems the FFB world is a tricky thing that needs to be handled with care in order to archive optimized results.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 11:41
Same. In just about ever car I've ever owned, I can feel the texture of the road through the wheel. Some more than others, but it's definitely there. And from what I've read, so can professional drivers in race cars.

I would have to agree you can definitely get road feel through the steering wheel in most cars. Some more then others. Ive heard drivers complain they are getting to much feedback inside the car because in a 3 hour race it would wear you out.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 11:51
With the help of some guys in this thread : http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
....it should be clear to everybody that FF levels below 100% increases the deadzone which is there even on a CSW v2, in this case it doesnīt matter if this is adjusted
in game or on the wheel, the result remains the same. Also, it reduces the dynamic range the wheel could normally handle, BTW the CSW v2 FF default always was
and still is 100%, with this the deazone is at 5%, a FF level of 50% increases the deadzone to about 8-10%.
Skoader has shown that amplifying FFB with SG (default 1.0) causes a non linear response, this also happens if FOR on the CSW v2 is set above the default level.
Seems the FFB world is a tricky thing that needs to be handled with care in order to archive optimized results.

With the prefered settings (Fanatec FF 100% - Game FF 100% TF 75%) the wheel feels too heavy for me. I run RAG: 130 RAB: 0.10 RAC: 075. No Scoops and SG at 100%. Even with Scoops (42/12) and RAG at 100 it still feels to heavy. When the FF ideally should be at 100/100/75, what should I adjust to get a 'lighter' wheel feel ... (I use the Low Vertical Load as car FF in game).

morpwr
07-02-2017, 11:52
I don't think you're missing anything. I just think there are multiple ways to do it. In AC, I have gain set to 1 and the Fanatec control panel set to 100%. Depending on the car, the in-game tuner usually recommends anywhere from 65-85%. For a few cars and tracks, though, the recommendation can be as high as 90-102%. But for consistency in feel, I always set each car to its lowest recommendation, regardless of whether or not the tool recommends more for certain tracks. If I had my driver control panel set to 75, I'm sure the average gain recommendation would be a lot higher gains. Does it feel different one way vs the other? IDK.

OK that makes more sense. I knew it could take game gain into account when it sets the car gain. Iv tried it and it adjusts up or down depending on where you set the game gain. But I didn't know it could take your wheel gain into account. Hmmm I'm going to have to try that and see if it actually can see where I set the profile screen.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 12:24
OK that makes more sense. I knew it could take game gain into account when it sets the car gain. Iv tried it and it adjusts up or down depending on where you set the game gain. But I didn't know it could take your wheel gain into account. Hmmm I'm going to have to try that and see if it actually can see where I set the profile screen.

Well, I don't know if it's taking the wheel gain into account, or how that happens. But know that you mention it, I'm curious. I'll lower the gain in my driver control panel and see if anything changes with the in-game recommendations.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 12:27
With the help of some guys in this thread : http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
Skoader has shown that amplifying FFB with SG (default 1.0) causes a non linear response, this also happens if FOR on the CSW v2 is set above the default level.
Seems the FFB world is a tricky thing that needs to be handled with care in order to archive optimized results.

What about lowering SG, does that also result in a non-linear response?

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 12:46
With the prefered settings (Fanatec FF 100% - Game FF 100% TF 75%) the wheel feels too heavy for me. I run RAG: 130 RAB: 0.10 RAC: 075. No Scoops and SG at 100%. Even with Scoops (42/12) and RAG at 100 it still feels to heavy. When the FF ideally should be at 100/100/75, what should I adjust to get a 'lighter' wheel feel ... (I use the Low Vertical Load as car FF in game).

Set RAG to 1.00 adjust on wheel FFB until it feels right for you.... I go between on wheel FFB 60 and 50....I have bee using on wheel 50 alot lately.

I tested GM FFB 100, 75, 50 again last Night VS on Wheel FFB 50, 75, 100 settings and there is No Diff as far as Dead Zone is concerned.
The FFB is Exacly the same!!! Just with Game Master FFB 100 the FFB is Stronger and you have to dial the strength down through the wheel.... I was using My Settings.

Any way you look at it its all the same... Reducing FFB through 1)GM FFB ( 2) On wheel FFB yield the same Results.... IMO when you use Low in Car Masters to Reduce the FFB you are killing the FFB at the Source... IMO tbis is what Creates Dead Zone... IMO why make it over Complicated simply turning it up or down at the end of the FFB chain.... GM FFB or throgh on Wheel.FFB controle.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 12:56
Well, I don't know if it's taking the wheel gain into account, or how that happens. But know that you mention it, I'm curious. I'll lower the gain in my driver control panel and see if anything changes with the in-game recommendations.

That's what I was getting at before. Especially in ac with the ffb app. If I set mine at 75 in the panel and you set yours at 100 your wheel in theory should be a lot heavier unless the v2 isn't nearly as strong as I think but I doubt that's the case. But by the numbers you gave it seems it would make sense it is seeing the wheel gain. Yours are about 20 lower then mine. I always looked at the wheel like a speaker. Simply the end of the chain but if that's not the case and the wheel gain does affect the ffb app it will change how I look at things.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 12:59
My current settings are on oscarolim.pt. My wheel FF is at 75%. BF at 100%. I ran Spa in the Aston Martin GT3 last evening with these settings and had a blast. Soo much fun... Kept improving laptimes. So I think I will run with these for a while. BTW: the crazy menu's went away ;-)

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 13:11
With the prefered settings (Fanatec FF 100% - Game FF 100% TF 75%) the wheel feels too heavy for me. I run RAG: 130 RAB: 0.10 RAC: 075. No Scoops and SG at 100%. Even with Scoops (42/12) and RAG at 100 it still feels to heavy. When the FF ideally should be at 100/100/75, what should I adjust to get a 'lighter' wheel feel ... (I use the Low Vertical Load as car FF in game).

First of all do not set RAC that low cause it will act too much like a limiter which is not needed, 0.85 is my recommendation if TF is at 0.75, in this case it still has a
bit of headroom, then lower TF or/and SG till it feels comfortable. Note, at a lower TF level you could set RAC perhaps at 0.90-095, watch for clipping.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 13:16
First of all do not set RAC that low cause it will act too much like a limiter which is not needed, 0.85 is my recommendation if TF is at 0.75, in this case it still has a
bit of headroom, then lower TF or/and SG till it feels comfortable. Note, at a lower TF level you could set RAC perhaps at 0.90-095, watch for clipping.

I was ussing your settings so I will put RAC back to .85. I will see where I get with Wheel FF at 100 and lowering TF/SG in game.

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 13:20
What about lowering SG, does that also result in a non-linear response?

No, in this case itīs a passive controller, default is at 1.0. From my experience with FF it does not affect the linearity if lower than 100%. As reference thereīs a link on the first
page of my thread of the CSW v2 linearity tests.

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 13:39
I was ussing your settings so I will put RAC back to .85. I will see where I get with Wheel FF at 100 and lowering TF/SG in game.

Take a look at this, TF is at the start of the chain and there is a certain affect on all processing that follows if that value is changed, SG is post.

Signal flow simplified:
Tire Force > Car Output > Relative G. > Soft Clip > Scoop > Dead Zone Removal > PWM > Steering Gain > FFB Monitor > FFB Master > output

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 14:31
First of all do not set RAC that low cause it will act too much like a limiter which is not needed, 0.85 is my recommendation if TF is at 0.75, in this case it still has a
bit of headroom, then lower TF or/and SG till it feels comfortable. Note, at a lower TF level you could set RAC perhaps at 0.90-095, watch for clipping.

This Makes No Sense Jack Spade:confused: Why would He want to turn RAC up but Now he has to watch for Clipping so you suggest Lowering TF/Steering Gain:confused: This Makes absolutely No Sense... Python just said the wheel.was Feeling better and better his lap times were improving:yes: This has to indicate that the wheel is Feeling Very close to the way it should for his FFB taste... Why Confuse him again.

Do Me a Favor... show the same respect to Me that i show to you...Talk your Tuning Methodes in your own thread because I strongly disagree with your tuning Methods... I don't even think you have a Clue What TF, RAG, RAC do TBH... If you do why would you tell people to Run Low Masters??? Then you suggest that they Cut the already Low Masters again by Reducing TF... Don't you know that TF =Global Spindle Scale Masters.... this means that even if you run Masters 100,200 it doesn't matter the signal strength is being Limited to TF 75:yes: or what ever its set to....In Car Master Set the Level of FFB saturation that you feel from the Car!!! this is why people complain about the cars feel Floaty and disconnected from the Road... Low Masters cut the Very thing they are trying to feel... Even if you run Masters 100 the TF is Limiting the Total power to the Global system to what ever TF is set to:yes:

There are 2 Major complaints about PCars FFB

1)The Car Doesnt feel connected to the Road.... This is a Direct result of running Low in Car Masters... You are Cutting the FFB at the source!!! This is the Very thing FFB tweeking is about why cut it at the source??? This Makes No sense.... as Noted in My earlier post the Game dev said the masters should e used for individual car FFB strength adjustment if Needed... But if all Cars feel too strong then adjust the TF... This Fact is Clearly stated

2) The Wheel Feel Heavy/Too Strong... This is a Direct result of using GM FFB 100... GM FFB is to adjust the final at the wheel FFB strength only.

Then you suggest Lower SG... This in fact Lowers All the FFB forces and should Not Need to be adjusted + or - 1.00/100 if the TF, RAG,RAC are set correctly.

Thanks for you participation but please Respect Me as i Respect you post you ideas/Method in your own thread... Let your people Follow you to your page ... I don't disrupt your thread and post and Spread My ideas because they radically differ from yours. Thanks

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 14:41
The FFB system is and always has been bigger than 1 persons idea or Quest for Glory...it really would have made Pcars a better game for all if all tweekers could have stood united as 1...each of us has made breakthroughs or discoveries that could have been Combined and honed into Universal/Wheel Specific/Platform specific tweek format....at the end of the Day SMS really Hurt their own profits because they Never stepped into intervene to explain the FFB system and how to best use it.

RAG: sets Max power of the FFB system...since the system intuitive power level is 1.0 it serves to reason that RAG be set at 1.0...Note RAG is also a Static power source it will always maintain the level it is set to...it will allow forces within it to operate at any value within its perimeter but will Not allow any force to rise above its set max value...EX 1.0

"Quote from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber describes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement"

RAB: Bleed Off FFB forces/Power to create changes in wheel weight Creating FFB Feel.

RAC: Sets the Power Cut Off level of FFB Forces within the FFB system...Ex: just like a fan when you turn off the power the Fan blades keep spinning until the residual power dissipates...The FFB system is the same way...Just because the RAC cuts the power to the FFB Effects at 85 the FFB spikes will still rise until the residual power dissipates...This is why you get clipping!!! the RAC must be set Lower to accommodate for FFB Spikes.

TF = Global Spindle Master Scale...This can be tricky EX: TF 75 is always = to 75 this operates pretty much the same as RAG it is a limiter... It will allow Forces to operate within it at any value/power level but will only put out forces according to its set level. EX: Using High/Low in Car Masters sets the saturation of FFB forces but will Not affect the Final TF power out Put to the Global system. TF 75 = TF 75

Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening momeny

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/&ved=0ahUKEwicsuXLn_7RAhUDw2MKHeOPDzEQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNF5ak2l_D8OMqxZh39Lx72Dyu5tAQ

Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200

Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.

Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.

It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialling down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote



IMO The FFB system is all about balanced Global settings... for me I Say TF 75 RAC 75 is the Solution....The Game master FFB is only there to allow the final at the wheel FFB strength to be adjusted for any wheel this is why it is added in After the Global settings does it work and has No impact or effect towards or within the FFB system...It Only affects the Final at the wheel FFB Strength...Wheels without on the wheel FFB settings the Game Master FFB Must be used to fine tune and adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength.


EDIT: also Note that using my Global settings TF/RAC 75 this allows the user to set DRF,DRR,,PWM,PWMS, Smoothing and damping to wheel used.
My masters and in car settings can be used for every car or the in car settings Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP settings can be adjusted to bring out the FFB feel that the user likes according to personal taste and the in car Masters can be used to adjust the FFB strength per car as Needed if needed to individual user taste with No Fear of Clipping...

Masters ~100 = Normal FFB saturation 1.00/100 No + or - to FFB effects.
Masters <100 = Reduced FFB saturation
Masters >100 = Greater FFB saturation

Note that no matter where you set the In car masters they are still Ruled by the TF(TF =Global spindle master Scale) and will Not cause or promote clipping as long as your RAC and TF and set Properly to compensate for Power spikes that can be caused by Hard Bumps or Heavy weight transfer loads.

Curbs and Bumps are static...the road doesn't change depending on the car your driving but each car will handle bumps and curb's according to the handling characteristics that have been programmed in for that specific car....Because Each car has been programmed with its own unique handling characteristics there is No need for Individual Car FFB Tuning one FFB Tune can Rule them All...Yes some may want or like to Create different FFB per car or even just FFB for a specific car/car Class But 1 FFB Can Rule them All...I have proven this with TF/RAC 75 Feel free to test for yourself

There is nothing to debate only settings to test...My PDF can be found on the first page 3/4ths down the page...I welcome any and all to test the settings and Report back with true or false findings.
Quote Originally Posted by GrimeyDog View Post
It would be interesting to know what your Idea of what these settings do as compared to what i believe they do
TF
RAG
RAB
RAC

Bmanic/ Jack Spade Could you post your thoughts on what these settings do and How they should be used... This will Help Clarify alot of differences in How we each use the FFB system...We are all after the same thing it would be good if we could all share ideas it would really be Good for the Pcars Community as a whole... The FFB system is Bigger than 1 persons Idea.



Edit: I converted JS tweeker files with My settings and Currently use his tweeker file Method with My Settings so i No longer have to program in the FFB for every Car... JS even Helped Me to with this process...I did thank him a bit ago for that and Still Give Kudos to him for that.
Repost: These are My thoughts on what these settings do... i think this is very important info that can Help many.

it would be very Helpful to the Pcars community if Jack Spade and Bmanic would also add their input and knowledge as to what these settings do and how they feel they should be used...It would actually be Great if some one from SMS would step in to shed light on these settings.

We are all after the same thing... Good FFB

Chaos all over the Globe cant we at least unite as Sim racers for the Greater Good of the Sim racing community???


Jack Spade before you Go Can you answer this Post about TF, RAG, RAC and also Please Comment on the exerpt the Dev made from the link provided about how to use the in Car Masters???? I dont think you can or will explain any of this because when you do it will show and prove your Methode to be flawed.

I have posted this 3 times and you will Not comment to it because you cant that's why... If this is False then please explain with Facts because saying that this is based on a old update is a Rubbish attempt to avoid the truth.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 15:00
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/&ved=0ahUKEwicsuXLn_7RAhUDw2MKHeOPDzEQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNF5ak2l_D8OMqxZh39Lx72Dyu5tAQ


Li k to Ermo Comment tbread just incase the thread in post is Not working....Im posting from My phone some times they dont work with copy and past from the phone... also there are 2 more links on the first page with More info about the FFB system.

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 15:28
Grimey, RAC is acting like a limiter a low value = more limiting. The way it works depends on itīs input level, TF is prior. Now in my example if TF is set lower thereīs less force
driving this thing so less limiting is required and the value can be set higher in order to achieve a similar output, but on the other side peaks can get thru as thereīs less
limiting now, so thereīs a chance of clipping to occur even though TF is on a lower level, thatīs why I suggested to watch for clipping.

To the other Relative stuff I canīt give you other info than whatīs in the FFB pdf, tennenbaum wrote something about it.

As explained many times TF is the global multiplier, the master if you will of all car scales and master scales, except the body stuff.
TF > Master Scale and Sop Scale > Car Scales, thatīs the order.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 15:36
Grimey, RAC is acting like a limiter a low value = more limiting. The way it works depends on itīs input level, TF is prior. Now in my example if TF is set lower thereīs less force
driving this thing so less limiting is required and the value can be set higher in order to achieve a similar output, but on the other side peaks can get thru as thereīs less
limiting now, so thereīs a chance of clipping to occur even though TF is on a lower level, thatīs why I suggested to watch for clipping.

He's basically talking about compression. The lower you set RAC, the more your compressing the top end. And the tighter the signal is compression, the less variation you get in the force curve. Less variation in force means less opportunity for you to feel the change in the force as the FFB moves up and down the curve. Basically... why compress the top of the force with RAC, when you could just lower it? Logic wise, it seems like RAC let's you pack more into a range, and it does. But packing more into a range actually makes the force changes more difficult to detect.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 15:39
The way I understood is the RAG/RAB/RAC works like an envelope generator in music.
RAG sets the max FFB power
RAC sets the minimum FFB power
RAB sets the time it takes to go from max power to min power.

So when the RAG is set to 130 and the CSW v3 wants to put out more power, it is then reduced over time (RAB) to reach the power level set at RAC (i.e. .85) but not below the RAC level. So the RAG is the limiter (do not exceed level 130), the RAB bleeds off power (short settings: abrubt; longer settings: more gradual).

Now as I am new to this game, I am on thin ice here so do not shoot to kill please ;-)

Jack Spade
07-02-2017, 16:11
The way I understood is the RAG/RAB/RAC works like an envelope generator in music.
RAG sets the max FFB power
RAC sets the minimum FFB power
RAB sets the time it takes to go from max power to min power.

So when the RAG is set to 130 and the CSW v3 wants to put out more power, it is then reduced over time (RAB) to reach the power level set at RAC (i.e. .85) but not below the RAC level. So the RAG is the limiter (do not exceed level 130), the RAB bleeds off power (short settings: abrubt; longer settings: more gradual).

Now as I am new to this game, I am on thin ice here so do not shoot to kill please ;-)

No, itīs not that what you think it is, concerning the RA stuff we are talking about torque though there seem to be some similarities with audio here and there.
As mentioned before tennenbaum tried to explain it some time ago in this thread.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 16:14
That's what I was getting at before. Especially in ac with the ffb app. If I set mine at 75 in the panel and you set yours at 100 your wheel in theory should be a lot heavier unless the v2 isn't nearly as strong as I think but I doubt that's the case. But by the numbers you gave it seems it would make sense it is seeing the wheel gain. Yours are about 20 lower then mine. I always looked at the wheel like a speaker. Simply the end of the chain but if that's not the case and the wheel gain does affect the ffb app it will change how I look at things.

Okay, I did a quick test this morning in AC with the Ferrari 458 GT2 @ Nurburgring. I've driven that car a lot lately and know the track well. The driver control panel (DCP) does not affect the FFB Clip app. But I mispoke about the recommendations. The app actually recommends gains of 85-110%, depending on the car and track. I was actually lowering that by 10-15 on my own, because I didn't like feel. And that brought about a revelation this morning. I lowered the DCP gain to 50% and gave it spin. Yes, it did increase the deadzone. The top dead center (TDC) was noticeably looser, but surprisingly...not terribly so. The big surprise, though, was that the wheel actually felt better to me. So, I then tried it with the DCP set to 100% (closing and restarting the game). That decreased the deadzone, and the TDC was tighter. But...the wheel forces were harder. To clarify, I wasn't feeling any hard clipping. The forces were just harsher/sharper, and I realized I actually liked the control panel at 50% much better.

Now, as for the dynamic range. The only discernible difference I could feel was at the lower end, which was obviously due to the increased deadzone. But the higher end forces seemed fine. In fact, I'll say they felt even better to me, because they didn't feel as hard. Now, that's definitely a personal taste thing. As for the low end, despite the lighter TDC, I can't really says I was missing much down there. Of course, I only got about an hour of track time this morning. I'll test more later, but if the increased deadzone is diminishing the low end forces, it wasn't by much, even with a 50% reduction in the control panel force. And, regardless, that can be resolved simply by raising the minimum force/deadzone removal. So, IMO, the bigger concern are the higher end forces, and those did not appear to be affected. Like I said, they actually felt better to me.

So, with that in mind, I went back into the DCP and tried 100% again. As expected, the harder forces returned. And I realized that that was why I was lowering the FFB clip app's recommendations by 10-15. Because I didn't like the harshness of the forces at the recommended level, and lowering it by 10-15 increments made it feel better. Doing so made it feel more like when I lowered the DCP to 50% and then ran the actual recommended gain. So, after that, I went back, set the DCP to 75%, and then restart AC and tested it out. With the DCP at 75%, I was able to run the exact recommended gain from the clipping app, without experiencing the harshness that came with the DCP at 100%. Again, using the recommend gain with the control panel at 100% didn't produce hard clipping. I just didn't like the feel of it. Running the DCP at 75% is giving me a much smoother feel in the FFB, and I like it better.

What does that all mean? I can only speak for myself, and to me it means that most of the debate around what gains should be set at is just irrelevant, because there are multiple ways to achieve the same effect. Does lowering FF increase deadzone? Yes. Does it matter? No. Because, for one, there are ways to negate the effect. And two, it still might feel good to some people. How it feels to you, is all that matters. I'm going to do more testing this week. But I'm pretty sure that what I've discovered/confirmed (for me, that is) is that, for the most part, when it comes to end user feel, it really doesn't matter where you boost or lower the gains. As long as you balance the settings, you can achieve a good feeling dynamic range. And what constitutes good, depends on your own personal tastes. With the DCP set to 100%, the FFB clip app recommendations in AC were fine. I didn't feel any hard clipping. I just didn't like the feel of the wheel. With the DCP at 75%, the recommend settings feel a lot better to me. And, for my tastes, I was better able to translate what I was feeling into action. In that short time, I could tell that my throttle and brake modulation was more subtle and precise in high speed corners and fast chicanes. On the flip side, during low speed corners, the wheel felt a little lighter than I was used to. I could still feel the forces. They were just a little weaker (and I do mean just a little). I'm pretty sure that's something I just need time to adjust to. But, if not, like I said earlier, I can always increase the minimum force to resolve the issue. So it's not a problem.

Anyway... more testing is definitely required. But right off the bat, I can say that, IMHO, the FF=100 theory doesn't seem to be a requirement/rule. The only thing that is true is that lowering FF or the DCP can increase deadzone. But that doesn't appear to be an experience-killing issue and, depending on your personal tastes, it might not even be a concern. So, yes... I do think it's worth experimenting with lower gains and DCP settings to see which feels best to you.

SGETI
07-02-2017, 16:20
Well look at this, the thread had come back from the dead.

Some great disc. and reading in the last week or so.

thanks to all.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 16:49
Okay, I did a quick test this morning in AC with the Ferrari 458 GT2 @ Nurburgring. I've driven that car a lot lately and know the track well. The driver control panel (DCP) does not affect the FFB Clip app. But I mispoke about the recommendations. The app actually recommends gains of 85-110%, depending on the car and track. I was actually lowering that by 10-15 on my own, because I didn't like feel. And that brought about a revelation this morning. I lowered the DCP gain to 50% and gave it spin. Yes, it did increase the deadzone. The top dead center (TDC) was noticeably looser, but surprisingly...not terribly so. The big surprise, though, was that the wheel actually felt better to me. So, I then tried it with the DCP set to 100% (closing and restarting the game). That decreased the deadzone, and the TDC was tighter. But...the wheel forces were harder. To clarify, I wasn't feeling any hard clipping. The forces were just harsher/sharper, and I realized I actually liked the control panel at 50% much better.

Now, as for the dynamic range. The only discernible difference I could feel was at the lower end, which was obviously due to the increased deadzone. But the higher end forces seemed fine. In fact, I'll say they felt even better to me, because they didn't feel as hard. Now, that's definitely a personal taste thing. As for the low end, despite the lighter TDC, I can't really says I was missing much down there. Of course, I only got about an hour of track time this morning. I'll test more later, but if the increased deadzone is diminishing the low end forces, it wasn't by much, even with a 50% reduction in the control panel force. And, regardless, that can be resolved simply by raising the minimum force/deadzone removal. So, IMO, the bigger concern are the higher end forces, and those did not appear to be affected. Like I said, they actually felt better to me.

So, with that in mind, I went back into the DCP and tried 100% again. As expected, the harder forces returned. And I realized that that was why I was lowering the FFB clip app's recommendations by 10-15. Because I didn't like the harshness of the forces at the recommended level, and lowering it by 10-15 increments made it feel better. Doing so made it feel more like when I lowered the DCP to 50% and then ran the actual recommended gain. So, after that, I went back, set the DCP to 75%, and then restart AC and tested it out. With the DCP at 75%, I was able to run the exact recommended gain from the clipping app, without experiencing the harshness that came with the DCP at 100%. Again, using the recommend gain with the control panel at 100% didn't produce hard clipping. I just didn't like the feel of it. Running the DCP at 75% is giving me a much smoother feel in the FFB, and I like it better.

What does that all mean? I can only speak for myself, and to me it means that most of the debate around what gains should be set at is just irrelevant, because there are multiple ways to achieve the same effect. Does lowering FF increase deadzone? Yes. Does it matter? No. Because, for one, there are ways to negate the effect. And two, it still might feel good to some people. How it feels to you, is all that matters. I'm going to do more testing this week. But I'm pretty sure that what I've discovered/confirmed (for me, that is) is that, for the most part, when it comes to end user feel, it really doesn't matter where you boost or lower the gains. As long as you balance the settings, you can achieve a good feeling dynamic range. And what constitutes good, depends on your own personal tastes. With the DCP set to 100%, the FFB clip app recommendations in AC were fine. I didn't feel any hard clipping. I just didn't like the feel of the wheel. With the DCP at 75%, the recommend settings feel a lot better to me. And, for my tastes, I was better able to translate what I was feeling into action. In that short time, I could tell that my throttle and brake modulation was more subtle and precise in high speed corners and fast chicanes. On the flip side, during low speed corners, the wheel felt a little lighter than I was used to. I could still feel the forces. They were just a little weaker (and I do mean just a little). I'm pretty sure that's something I just need time to adjust to. But, if not, like I said earlier, I can always increase the minimum force to resolve the issue. So it's not a problem.

Anyway... more testing is definitely required. But right off the bat, I can say that, IMHO, the FF=100 theory doesn't seem to be a requirement/rule. The only thing that is true is that lowering FF or the DCP can increase deadzone. But that doesn't appear to be an experience-killing issue and, depending on your personal tastes, it might not even be a concern. So, yes... I do think it's worth experimenting with lower gains and DCP settings to see which feels best to you.

Ok that's exactly what I found on both thrustmaster wheels with regards to the feel. You just phrased it a lot better. I didn't think the control panel gain would have any effect but who knows until you try it. That's what ive been trying to say all along why wouldn't you want to maximize the ffb at the game and just control it with the control panel. To me with the wheel set at 100 feels overly heavy and exaggerated. Then turning the game down to compensate for that seems to lose the crispness and separation of the details while still adding some unwanted weight. But like you said its how it feels to you that matters.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 17:12
Ok that's exactly what I found on both thrustmaster wheels with regards to the feel. You just phrased it a lot better. I didn't think the control panel gain would have any effect but who knows until you try it. That's what ive been trying to say all along why wouldn't you want to maximize the ffb at the game and just control it with the control panel. To me with the wheel set at 100 feels overly heavy and exaggerated. Then turning the game down to compensate for that seems to lose the crispness and separation of the details while still adding some unwanted weight. But like you said its how it feels to you that matters.

That's exactly what changed my mind. If I run the DCP at 100%, I'm forced to lower the in-car gain to remove the harshness. Doing that lowers the force curve. It's the same looking/shaped curve, but it no longer rises as high near the clipping line, where the clipping app recommends it to be set. Lowering the DCP to 75% removes the harshness, and allows me to set the in-car gain to the app's recommendation, which then stretches/expands the same force curve higher, up near the clipping line where it should be. IMO, the more expanded the curve, the more differentiation you can feel in the changes in force, and I'm pretty sure that's why I like the feel of this more.

Funny, because, although I don't agree with Grimey's method of compressing the high-end with RAC (which like above, results in a narrower/tighter curve), if it's true that the in-game FF, Fanatec DCP, and @Wheel forces all do the same thing, then I think I have to agree with his assertion that running high FF, and then lowering the in-car masters does effect the curve by reducing the breadth of the its range, making the curve smaller/narrower with regards to steps of differentiation. But, like I said in that post, whether one perceives the resulting feel of this effect as a negative or positive, depends on their personal preference. It's not a matter of right or wrong.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 17:22
That's exactly what changed my mind. If I run the DCP at 100%, I'm forced to lower the in-car gain to remove the harshness. Doing that lowers the force curve. It's the same looking/shaped curve, but it no longer rises as high near the clipping line, where the clipping app recommends it to be set. Lowering the DCP to 75% removes the harshness, and allows me to set the in-car gain to the app's recommendation, which then stretches/expands the same force curve higher, up near the clipping line where it should be. IMO, the more expanded the curve, the more differentiation you can feel in the changes in force, and I'm pretty sure that's why I like the feel of this more.

Funny, because, although I don't agree with Grimey's method of compressing the high-end with RAC (which like above, results in a narrower/tighter curve), if it's true that the in-game FF, Fanatec DCP, and @Wheel forces all do the same thing, then I think I have to agree with his assertion that running high FF, and then lowering the in-car masters does effect the curve by reducing the breadth of the its range, making the curve smaller/narrower with regards to steps of differentiation. But, like I said in that post, whether one perceives the resulting feel of this effect as a negative or positive, depends on their personal preference. It's not a matter of right or wrong.

Ive been trying to say that for a long time. I tried 100 on the wheel for a long time and it never felt right or good especially with the way the tm wheels work. Is it a huge difference no but is it enough to make me not want to use it yes. Its never made any sense to me to turn down the very forces we want to feel and want clear definition from.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 17:29
Haiden i dont think that the Low End Forces are Gone... You just have get used to the Lighter FFB Force Feel... Remember it was you who Convinced Me that My FFB was over Saturated and as i said before thanks you were Right:yes: once i got used to the lighter FFB feel i saw every FFB force was infact Still there just Not as Saturated.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 17:30
The way I understood is the RAG/RAB/RAC works like an envelope generator in music.
RAG sets the max FFB power
RAC sets the minimum FFB power
RAB sets the time it takes to go from max power to min power.

So when the RAG is set to 130 and the CSW v3 wants to put out more power, it is then reduced over time (RAB) to reach the power level set at RAC (i.e. .85) but not below the RAC level. So the RAG is the limiter (do not exceed level 130), the RAB bleeds off power (short settings: abrubt; longer settings: more gradual).

Now as I am new to this game, I am on thin ice here so do not shoot to kill please ;-)


Your Doing ok... your just searching to find your way

morpwr
07-02-2017, 17:39
Haiden i dont think that the Low End Forces are Gone... You just have get used to the Lighter FFB Force Feel... Remember it was you who Convinced Me that My FFB was over Saturated and as i said before thanks you were Right:yes: once i got used to the lighter FFB feel i saw every FFB force was infact Still there just Not as Saturated.

Well it seems we may still be learning some stuff...lol

Haiden
07-02-2017, 18:07
Haiden i dont think that the Low End Forces are Gone... You just have get used to the Lighter FFB Force Feel... Remember it was you who Convinced Me that My FFB was over Saturated and as i said before thanks you were Right:yes: once i got used to the lighter FFB feel i saw every FFB force was infact Still there just Not as Saturated.

No. I don't think they are gone, either. I think I'd get used to it in a few days, if even that. And, like I said, even if they are diminished to the point that I can't feel them, I can simply increase minimum force/DRR to get them back.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 19:13
I may have to revisit pcars ffb this week at least for a little bit.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 19:47
That's exactly what changed my mind. If I run the DCP at 100%, I'm forced to lower the in-car gain to remove the harshness. Doing that lowers the force curve. It's the same looking/shaped curve, but it no longer rises as high near the clipping line, where the clipping app recommends it to be set. Lowering the DCP to 75% removes the harshness, and allows me to set the in-car gain to the app's recommendation, which then stretches/expands the same force curve higher, up near the clipping line where it should be. IMO, the more expanded the curve, the more differentiation you can feel in the changes in force, and I'm pretty sure that's why I like the feel of this more.

Funny, because, although I don't agree with Grimey's method of compressing the high-end with RAC (which like above, results in a narrower/tighter curve), if it's true that the in-game FF, Fanatec DCP, and @Wheel forces all do the same thing, then I think I have to agree with his assertion that running high FF, and then lowering the in-car masters does effect the curve by reducing the breadth of the its range, making the curve smaller/narrower with regards to steps of differentiation. But, like I said in that post, whether one perceives the resulting feel of this effect as a negative or positive, depends on their personal preference. It's not a matter of right or wrong.

Yes!!! Yes This!!! This is Exactly How Pcars FFB works also!!! This Exact FFB + or - to the FFB Forces is Controlled by RAC!!! Test it for yourself... Reduce only RAC to 0 test then 50 test and then what ever you Normally use you will see that the FFB effects forces are Reduced the Lower the # and you will also Not that the Graph box at 0 the FFB Spike Lines will Stay centered in the Graph Box... When you Test 50 the FFB spike lines will use 50% of the Box and the FFB effects Curbs, Bump feel is Stronger then test what you Normally use and you will see that the Spike Lines will use even more of the Graph Box and Feel even Stronger.

it is very important to keep in Mind the Fan analogy... Just because you turn the power off the Fan blades Keep spinning until the Residual Power Dissapates... The FFB is the Same way... so for EX: RAC 75 the Graph Line under weight transfer, Bumps will Move up to 75% of the FFB Graph Box Volume but even though the RAC is limiting/Cutting power at 75% the FFB spikes can and will Rise to take up and use the Full FFB Graph Box Volume until the FFB Power Spike dissapates... with that in Mind you have to set the RAC to Accomodate for those weight Transfer, Curb, Bumpy Road power spikes to Avoid Clipping:yes:

Test this for your self:yes:

lancashirelad
07-02-2017, 20:03
I may have to revisit pcars ffb this week at least for a little bit.

I did after leaving the game alone for months, I came to the conclusion that the ff will never be right and prefer assetto, and also I've realised the AI in project cars can be suicidal and daft when overtaking but are great at avoiding crashed cars. Assetto on the other hand are great racing but seem like lost sheep when encountering a crashed car. If only we could have it all �� . My brain hurts reading these posts and I really hope pc2 ff is nothing like pc1 to be honest.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 20:15
Yes!!! Yes This!!! This is Exactly How Pcars FFB works also!!! This Exact FFB + or - to the FFB Forces is Controlled by RAC!!! Test it for yourself... Reduce only RAC to 0 test then 50 test and then what ever you Normally use you will see that the FFB effects forces are Reduced the Lower the # and you will also Not that the Graph box at 0 the FFB Spike Lines will Stay centered in the Graph Box... When you Test 50 the FFB spike lines will use 50% of the Box and the FFB effects Curbs, Bump feel is Stronger then test what you Normally use and you will see that the Spike Lines will use even more of the Graph Box and Feel even Stronger.

it is very important to keep in Mind the Fan analogy... Just because you turn the power off the Fan blades Keep spinning until the Residual Power Dissapates... The FFB is the Same way... so for EX: RAC 75 the Graph Line under weight transfer, Bumps will Move up to 75% of the FFB Graph Box Volume but even though the RAC is limiting/Cutting power at 75% the FFB spikes can and will Rise to take up and use the Full FFB Graph Box Volume until the FFB Power Spike dissapates... with that in Mind you have to set the RAC to Accomodate for those weight Transfer, Curb, Bumpy Road power spikes to Avoid Clipping:yes:

Test this for your self:yes:

I have tested that. I'm not actually talking about using RAC to cap the signal. My understanding of RAC is that it really affects the higher end forces, not the lower. Lowering the RAC while boosting the gain, basically compresses the high end of the signal where RAC operates. Some people like compression. I'm not a fan. IMO, it narrows the range of the curve, similarly to how I described above. But it's surely a personal preference thing. I need to test PCars with FF=100, but with my DCP set to 75%, and see how it feels. I'm sure I'll have to raise the in-car masters a bit to compensate. But I'm curious to see if the FFB feels smoother overall, like it did in AC, because of the decrease in the DCP.

Haiden
07-02-2017, 20:21
I did after leaving the game alone for months, I came to the conclusion that the ff will never be right and prefer assetto, and also I've realised the AI in project cars can be suicidal and daft when overtaking but are great at avoiding crashed cars. Assetto on the other hand are great racing but seem like lost sheep when encountering a crashed car. If only we could have it all �� . My brain hurts reading these posts and I really hope pc2 ff is nothing like pc1 to be honest.

This is how I feel. I love the FFB in AC, R3E, and AMS, and don't believe PCars can ever feel like that. This conversation on gains and control panels is more related to me fine tuning in AC. I'll test the theory out in PCars, but I doubt I'll be coming back to it.

I also agree about the AC AI. It much better at racing cleanly and fairly, but it they can be overly timid sometimes.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 20:22
I did after leaving the game alone for months, I came to the conclusion that the ff will never be right and prefer assetto, and also I've realised the AI in project cars can be suicidal and daft when overtaking but are great at avoiding crashed cars. Assetto on the other hand are great racing but seem like lost sheep when encountering a crashed car. If only we could have it all �� . My brain hurts reading these posts and I really hope pc2 ff is nothing like pc1 to be honest.

After switching to pc the ai in other games ac included is a lot better to race with. I don't play pcars much anymore but id still like to know if the ffb worked all along and nobody really figured it out. At this point I know I don't like how it is compared to other games. But I totally agree I hope pcars 2 is a lot easier to setup and better.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 20:31
I have tested that. I'm not actually talking about using RAC to cap the signal. My understanding of RAC is that it really affects the higher end forces, not the lower. Lowering the RAC while boosting the gain, basically compresses the high end of the signal where RAC operates. Some people like compression. I'm not a fan. IMO, it narrows the range of the curve, similarly to how I described above. But it's surely a personal preference thing. I need to test PCars with FF=100, but with my DCP set to 75%, and see how it feels. I'm sure I'll have to raise the in-car masters a bit to compensate. But I'm curious to see if the FFB feels smoother overall, like it did in AC, because of the decrease in the DCP.

It should. Just turn up whatever you turned down so you had a reasonable wheel weight. That's all ive ever done is exactly what you did in ac. Fill the hud without clipping and turn down the wheel in the profile screen. I had the exact same result in pcars as you did in ac. I do the exact same thing in r3e and I don't change my wheel between any of the games. It will be interesting to hear what you say after you try it.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 20:33
First of all do not set RAC that low cause it will act too much like a limiter which is not needed, 0.85 is my recommendation if TF is at 0.75, in this case it still has a
bit of headroom, then lower TF or/and SG till it feels comfortable. Note, at a lower TF level you could set RAC perhaps at 0.90-095, watch for clipping.

I ran a little test also. My settings are on oscarolim.pt. I use wheel FF 75% and Tire Force 75%. This is the feel I like. I turned wheel FF at 100 and Tire force at 50. I got the same feel, even almost identical laptimes. How is the latter better than the first? It is more like tomato/tometo to me...

morpwr
07-02-2017, 20:39
I ran a little test also. My settings are on oscarolim.pt. I use wheel FF 75% and Tire Force 75%. This is the feel I like. I turned wheel FF at 100 and Tire force at 50. I got the same feel, even almost identical laptimes. How is the latter better than the first? It is more like tomato/tometo to me...

The theory is the wheel wont produce the same forces if its not set to 100.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 21:00
The theory is the wheel wont produce the same forces if its not set to 100.

Ah... I put the Tire Force to 60 and RAC to .95. I did not notice any difference between .85 or .95. TF at 60 made a big difference. I could get used to WFF 100/TF 75 but that takes a lot of muscle ;-) I keep improving my laptimes and seem to get control of the car with these settings. That or my driver skills are improving fast ;-) I am still using low Vertical Load.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 21:07
Ah... I put the Tire Force to 60 and RAC to .95. I did not notice any difference between .85 or .95. TF at 60 made a big difference. I could get used to WFF 100/TF 75 but that takes a lot of muscle ;-) I keep improving my laptimes and seem to get control of the car with these settings. That or my driver skills are improving fast ;-) I am still using low Vertical Load.

Thing is why would you want to turn down the forces youre trying to feel at the beginning? If you changed tf and rac at the same time you probably wouldn't. Simply turn down the ff at the wheel till youre comfortable while keeping the hud filled without clipping. You shouldn't have to wrestle the wheel either if that's what you meant by it takes a lot of muscle.

inthebagbud
07-02-2017, 21:11
Whether you use ps4, pc or Xbox also makes a difference.

I run with no RA, scoop, or SC 100 FF , 100 tf on wheel around 30/35 car master around 52 no sop

I can be around 2 seconds faster with this and my own in car settings than using the RA & scoop settings usually recommended

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 21:16
Thing is why would you want to turn down the forces youre trying to feel at the beginning? If you changed tf and rac at the same time you probably wouldn't. Simply turn down the ff at the wheel till youre comfortable while keeping the hud filled without clipping. You shouldn't have to wrestle the wheel either if that's what you meant by it takes a lot of muscle.

I could do that but it would not feel different. One person tells me to turn down at the wheel, the other tells me never turn down at the wheel... It gets confusing but I guess that what this thread is all about ;-)

morpwr
07-02-2017, 21:21
I could do that but it would not feel different. One person tells me to turn down at the wheel, the other tells me never turn down at the wheel... It gets confusing but I guess that what this thread is all about ;-)

Just try it and use whatever feels best to you.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 21:23
Just try it and use whatever feels best to you.

I did... One way or the other, made no difference in how it felt. So again: Tomato/Tometo...

morpwr
07-02-2017, 21:29
I did... One way or the other, made no difference in how it felt. So again: Tomato/Tometo...

Yeah its close either way. Where did you set the wheel to?

rosko
07-02-2017, 21:40
Look, I won't disagree with you about what feels good or not. I'm simply telling you a FACT that the clipping metering is not broken, like you stated earlier. It works precisely as intended. You just don't seem to have any idea at all where in the signal chain it is or how the various main FFB strength and output sliders work. It's like you are randomly tweaking stuff without actually understanding anything. Considering the amount of parameters involved and the way the FFB chain works, you may as well just go play the lottery.

I 100% agree with you that the FFB system is overly complicated. I also agree with you and everybody else that it could be a LOT better right out of the box. Heck I fought for better settings right up until release (and post release) but it never got changed.. well, it did once get changed to something even much worse (which is why we now have a "classic" preset which are the settings that were there from release).

Can't reveal much but yes, things are much better in pCars 2. :)

EDIT: Oh, and you say you've tried my settings. Have you tried the latest discoveries from GrimeyDog? If you bear with me a single moment more, then do this:

1) DELETE all Jack Spade stuff from your pCars 2 directory. Make 100% sure they are not affecting the game in any way (keep a backup somewhere though)
2) Reset all controller settings to vanilla/default
3) Make sure you have FFB Strength/aka FF within the game set to 100 (this is so friggin important that it isn't even funny that this option is available on PC, it shouldn't even be there)
4) Make sure Damper Saturation set to ZERO
5) Once that is done, select the "Classic" preset in the FFB Calibration menu
6) Remove any Scoop from it (set knee to zero)
7) Set TIRE FORCE to 120 (and then fine-tune each car's master scale in case FFB is clipping too much or is too hard)
8) Now choose a car, something that is KNOWN to work.. some cars are just plain weird and buggy and will NEVER have good FFB, no matter how much you tweak.. choose for instance a basic GT3 car like the Aston Martin
9) Go into it's GARAGE and select the Force Feedback tab. Here's what you do for EVERY SINGLE CAR, quick simple tweak, for every car. No fine tuning, no fussing about.. let's keep it super simple:

- Fx to 10
- Fy to 70
- Fz to 70 (this one you can also leave at 100 and test it that way)
- Arm Angle to 2500

Remember to do these things for each and every individual car. Yes it's a chore but you only need to do them once and you can do it quick. You could also make a .xml file for each car, just like the Jack Spade stuff but I do not recommend this because it becomes tricky to set the Master Scale. Just keep it all within the game to keep it simple. These settings are "broad general strokes".. I of course fine-tune these for each car to get it "perfect" but this works as a really good starting point. All credit for finding out about the nasty Fx side effects goes to GrimeyDog. He found the "pCars is slightly weird" parameter and it really does help a lot to turn it completely off or at the very least turn it down to small values like 10 or 14.

Anyhow. That's it. You're done.

FAQ:

Q: FFB is way too heavy. Should I reduce the Force Feedback strength in the game from 100 to something lower?
A: Absolutely friggin not. Do not EVER touch this control. It should be at 100 and never ever set to anything else. You need to lower the FFB strength either at the very beginning of the chain (in this case it's Tire Force / Master Scale per car) or at the end of the chain, that means your WHEEL. Either do it from a "control panel" within windows (this is how it's done on Logitech and Thrustmaster wheels) or on the wheel itself (Should be possible on Fanatec wheels). Never. Ever. Touch. The. FF. Parameter. In. pCars. It must be 100. Period.

Q: .. but, should I just..
A: NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Q: Ok, well.. what if there is heavy clipping on a specific car?
A: Go into the individual cars setup menu and make sure you've put Fx to zero and Fy & Fz to 70. If you've done this and it still clips a lot, then lower the individual car's Master Scale parameter until the bad clipping goes away. Remember: A little clipping is fine. Constant non-stop clipping for several seconds is bad.

I had another dip into pcars today & had a go with these settings. It worked pretty well for me actually & enjoyed playing pcars for the first time in a while. I tried the z4gt3, M3e30 group a & m1 went with a higher Fz closer to 100, you do not mention Mz? I have this setting between 0 & 10, Fx normally lower than 10. Master scale i just went with what felt best.
Still not as good as AC though, AC has more info on grip through the ffb. There are somethings AC doesn't do as well, like you can't feel wheel go light as you pass over a crest, but in pcars this feels completely natural, the road feel is good in both imo but kerbs are better in pcars & i would like a bit more detail in the low end though only a tiny bit. But everything else i prefer in AC & along with imo superior handling is probably the reason i'll probably stick with AC till pcars 2 comes out.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 21:42
Yeah its close either way. Where did you set the wheel to?

I had the CSW v2 wheel at FF 75. In game: Tire Force at 75 and RAC at .85. Force Feedback at 100. My settings are on oscarolim's site.

To me, the discussion is wheather you should keep the FF at the wheel at 100. In game FF at 100 and TF at 75 at all times. Too heavy? Change anything but those settings!

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 22:03
I have tested that. I'm not actually talking about using RAC to cap the signal. My understanding of RAC is that it really affects the higher end forces, not the lower. Lowering the RAC while boosting the gain, basically compresses the high end of the signal where RAC operates. Some people like compression. I'm not a fan. IMO, it narrows the range of the curve, similarly to how I described above. But it's surely a personal preference thing. I need to test PCars with FF=100, but with my DCP set to 75%, and see how it feels. I'm sure I'll have to raise the in-car masters a bit to compensate. But I'm curious to see if the FFB feels smoother overall, like it did in AC, because of the decrease in the DCP.

RAC + or - the entire FFB signal to its set range...it does not differentiate between Low and high end forces...it works pretty much just like the in Car masters it just sets the level of saturation of all FFB forces even TF. remember the chain its In Car masters--> TF--->Relative adjust system(RAG,RAB,RAC)--->Scoops---> SG--->GM FFB--->to wheel.

If your RAC is set too High your Guaranteed to get clipping pretty much No matter what you do...RAC set the FFB saturation level.

Think about it Pcars works like any other game...We don't know at what FFB level they cut the FFB forces in AC,R3E or RF2 but you can know for sure that they cut the FFB forces Low enough to leave room for expansion... it work the same as the AC clip preventing tool..Pcars just doesnt have a auto tune function and we have access to all the FFB tuning perimeters.

Some times too much freedom of choice is a Blessing and a Curse.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 22:07
Some times too much freedom of choice is a Blessing and a Curse.

Amen to that...

Haiden
07-02-2017, 22:11
Whether you use ps4, pc or Xbox also makes a difference.

I run with no RA, scoop, or SC 100 FF , 100 tf on wheel around 30/35 car master around 52 no sop

I can be around 2 seconds faster with this and my own in car settings than using the RA & scoop settings usually recommended

When I did test the lower FF in PCars it was with no scoops and RA disabled. That felt better than any settings I'd tried before. I also removed the PWM settings.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 22:14
I had the CSW v2 wheel at FF 75. In game: Tire Force at 75 and RAC at .85. Force Feedback at 100. My settings are on oscarolim's site.

To me, the discussion is wheather you should keep the FF at the wheel at 100. In game FF at 100 and TF at 75 at all times. Too heavy? Change anything but those settings!

in game and on wheel FFB with a v2 100 is outta the question!!! Its too strong.

I have my in Game FFB set to 100 but My on wheel FFB i set between 60 & 50 depending on how i feel... Im getting more and more used to on wheel FFB at 50 it feels just as good as 75,60 but the wheel is just not as strong...There is no loss of Dynamic Range!!!

its just like listening to a Ipod at a low volume the whole song is there its just not playing at a loud Volume but you can still hear every Note and every word the FFB is the same its all there its just Not being amplified as much but its all still there.

GM FFB 100
TF 75
RAC 75
on wheel FFB start at 50 and keep raising it +5 or +10 until you find your sweet spot.

Python-Five
07-02-2017, 22:19
in game and on wheel FFB with a v2 100 is outta the question!!! Its too strong.

I have my in Game FFB set to 100 but My on wheel FFB i set between 60 & 50 depending on how i feel... Im getting more and more used to on wheel FFB at 50 it feels just as good as 75,60 but the wheel is just not as strong...There is no loss of Dynamic Range!!!

its just like listening to a Ipod at a low volume the whole song is there its just not playing at a loud Volume but you can still hear every Note and every word the FFB is the same its all there its just Not being amplified as much but its all still there.

GM FFB 100
TF 75
RAC 75
on wheel FFB start at 50 and keep raising it +5 or +10 until you find your sweet spot.

I think I found my sweet spot already. I like a wheel that pushes back. So I arrived at 85 on wheel FF.
To each its own...

morpwr
07-02-2017, 22:46
I think I found my sweet spot already. I like a wheel that pushes back. So I arrived at 85 on wheel FF.
To each its own...

You might find a lower level might be slower in the beginning but once you get used to it youll find its easier to catch the car. Same goes for fast back and forth sections of a track. You don't really want to fight the wheel because it makes it harder to be smooth with your inputs. Many of us have changed what we originally thought we liked to higher or lower settings. Just throwing that out there if 85 works for you that's ok.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 23:17
I think I found my sweet spot already. I like a wheel that pushes back. So I arrived at 85 on wheel FF.
To each its own...

You don't know My Legend:p Im the king of overly strong super saturated FFB:cool: yup true story ask Haiden, Mopar they will tell you:cower:... But yes you too will learn like i did:yes: LOL

morpwr
07-02-2017, 23:19
You don't know My Legend:p Im the king of overly strong super saturated FFB:cool: yup true story ask Haiden, Mopar they will tell you:cower:... But yes you too will learn like i did:yes: LOL

And you got faster...:( lol

Roger Prynne
07-02-2017, 23:36
I like using the Dynamic FFB setting in AC's FFBClip app, it sorts it all out for me and feels great.
When on the straights at times it can go as high as 170 or so, which gives a nice tight wheel, then when turning a corner it will reduce it just enough to avoid clipping, and it feels very natural.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2017, 23:36
And you got faster...:( lol

Now that i don't spend all My time tweeking looking for flaws in the FFB...lets just say that less tweek time and more Racing time is Really showing in My Lap times Now:victorious:

morpwr
07-02-2017, 23:45
I like using the Dynamic FFB setting in AC's FFBClip app, it sorts it all out for me and feels great.
When on the straights at times it can go as high as 170 or so, which gives a nice tight wheel, then when turning a corner it will reduce it just enough to avoid clipping, and it feels very natural.

That app is the best. Just jump in and let it do its thing. I don't use the dynamic mode but they all seem to work very well.

morpwr
07-02-2017, 23:48
Now that i don't spend all My time tweeking looking for flaws in the FFB...lets just say that less tweek time and more Racing time is Really showing in My Lap times Now:victorious:

We will just start adding weight to your cars.

Haiden
08-02-2017, 00:23
I like using the Dynamic FFB setting in AC's FFBClip app, it sorts it all out for me and feels great.
When on the straights at times it can go as high as 170 or so, which gives a nice tight wheel, then when turning a corner it will reduce it just enough to avoid clipping, and it feels very natural.

Man, I forgot about the dynamic feature. I might have to give that a shot again this weekend. Glad you mentioned it. :)

Haiden
08-02-2017, 03:11
I like using the Dynamic FFB setting in AC's FFBClip app, it sorts it all out for me and feels great.
When on the straights at times it can go as high as 170 or so, which gives a nice tight wheel, then when turning a corner it will reduce it just enough to avoid clipping, and it feels very natural.

Uh... this is amazing! :)

I think I tried it before and wrote it off, because it felt too hard when it ramped up. But that was with my driver control panel set to 100%. I now have the DCP set to 60%, and this dynamic setting is just fantastic. I saw the gain creeping into the 190s with the Ferrari 458 GT2. I'm gonna try this out with all my favs, and probably end up modifying the FFB clip .ini file to make Dynamic/Auto the default setting, which mean no more need to adjust gains in AC. It's so plug and play it's a shame.

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 09:31
You might find a lower level might be slower in the beginning but once you get used to it youll find its easier to catch the car. Same goes for fast back and forth sections of a track. You don't really want to fight the wheel because it makes it harder to be smooth with your inputs. Many of us have changed what we originally thought we liked to higher or lower settings. Just throwing that out there if 85 works for you that's ok.

Heavy today; Light tomorrow ;-) I have only driven two cars: Audi LMS and Aston Martin GT3. On two tracks: Dubai and Spa. I am sure I will change settings again ;-) but for now I have to practice, practice, practice...

BigDad
08-02-2017, 10:40
Wow , chasing the pCars FFB Unicorn is still a thing? lol

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 11:15
Wow , chasing the pCars FFB Unicorn is still a thing? lol

We always come back to Help those that Need to Tweek FFB.

Kidos to All

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 11:18
Wow , chasing the pCars FFB Unicorn is still a thing? lol

Yeah... I am the NEW GUY, so what ;-) Inventing the 'wheel' again and again and again... I have 1.5 years of pCars threads to catch up on ;-)

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 11:20
We always come back to Help those that Need to Tweek FFB.

Kidos to All

Seriously? 'Kidos'? Typing from your iPhone again? Either it is a typo or we all should have kids...

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 11:50
It all works it all just works!!!
I Messed with TF, RAG 75 vs 80, GM FFB 100, On wheel FFB 50 last Night and it all just works!!! No Clipping at TF/RAC 80 wheel is Very Strong and Lively... in Car Master Still My Norm 100 and No Clipping Not even a Hint of Clipping, No increased Dead Zone and No Loss of Dynamic Range... Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP can be set to what ever Brings out best feel for user.

RAG 1.0
TF 75 ->80
RAB 08
RAC 75 ->80
GM FFB 100 (<--Fanatec wheels only) On wheel FFB set to your Liking..Me i use 50 on wheel FFB
GM FFB 75 and + or - ??? Must be adjusted according to wheel used if your wheel does Not have on wheel FFB level Control

Pars FFB system 1.00/100 = 100% power output this Means using RAG 1.01+ or for Ex: 1.30 you are using RAG at 130% power output!!! Why Why why is this Nescessary??? Why has this been Promoted and taught??? if you are using the FFB system correctly No Setting Need Be above 1.0/100...IMO i would Not Recommend setting RAG above 1.0 because if this Fact.

Also Remember hen setting TF/RAC you Must Leave Room for FFB force expansion... Remember the fan principal even though you shut the power Off the Blades keep spinning until the residual power Dissapates... The FFB systm is the same way... The FFB spikes will Rise until the residual power dissapates therefore I recommend setting TF and RAC No Higher than 80 to avoid Clipping then adjust GM FFB to set the at the Wheel FFB strength that is right for you.

Feel Free to test this for yourself and Comment about your findings.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 11:50
Heavy today; Light tomorrow ;-) I have only driven two cars: Audi LMS and Aston Martin GT3. On two tracks: Dubai and Spa. I am sure I will change settings again ;-) but for now I have to practice, practice, practice...

Its not really nobody knew what was better like some of the settings but more your initial thought of what felt right was off a little. Myself I run a heavier wheel then i started with some have come down. But most of us are pretty close with that setting.So now would be the perfect time before you get used to the heavy wheel and have to readjust yourself. The ruf gt3 at the glen is a perfect example if you want to test the theory. A heavy wheel will make getting through the bus stop fast difficult because you need to be smooth to hit it right. If you've only driven two cars when you get into open open wheels or a high downforce car a heavy wheel will get real heavy and youll probably find yourself wanting to turn the wheel down. But yes practice,practice,practice. Like I said before just trying to give you some pointers before you settle in and go the route we did were it takes a few days to readjust yourself to a new setting.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 11:52
Seriously? 'Kidos'? Typing from your iPhone again? Either it is a typo or we all shoud have kids...

I have some I'm good thanks lol

morpwr
08-02-2017, 11:54
Wow , chasing the pCars FFB Unicorn is still a thing? lol

I cant catch him. Damn unicorns are fast!!!:p

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 11:58
Its not really nobody knew what was better like some of the settings but more your initial thought of what felt right was off a little. Myself I run a heavier wheel then i started with some have come down. But most of us are pretty close with that setting.So now would be the perfect time before you get used to the heavy wheel and have to readjust yourself. The ruf gt3 at the glen is a perfect example if you want to test the theory. A heavy wheel will make getting through the bus stop fast difficult because you need to be smooth to hit it right. If you've only driven two cars when you get into open open wheels or a high downforce car a heavy wheel will get real heavy and youll probably find yourself wanting to turn the wheel down. But yes practice,practice,practice. Like I said before just trying to give you some pointers before you settle in and go the route we did were it takes a few days to readjust yourself to a new setting.

I know that you get used to what you start out with. That is why I ask soo much, because I haven't really started yet. I will get in the RUF GT3 at W.Glen and do some driving. Heavy works for me at Spa but I fully realize that it could not be the case on other tracks.

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 11:59
It all works it all just works!!!
I Messed with TF, RAG 75 vs 80, GM FFB 100, On wheel FFB 50 last Night and it all just works!!! No Clipping at TF/RAC 80 wheel is Very Strong and Lively... in Car Master Still My Norm 100 and No Clipping Not even a Hint of Clipping, No increased Dead Zone and No Loss of Dynamic Range... Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP can be set to what ever Brings out best feel for user.

RAG 1.0
TF 75 ->80
RAB 08
RAC 75 ->80
GM FFB 100 (<--Fanatec wheels only) On wheel FFB set to your Liking..Me i use 50 on wheel FFB
GM FFB 75 and + or - ??? Must be adjusted according to wheel used if your wheel does Not have on wheel FFB level Control

Pars FFB system 1.00/100 = 100% power output this Means using RAG 1.01+ or for Ex: 1.30 you are using RAG at 130% power output!!! Why Why why is this Nescessary??? Why has this been Promoted and taught??? if you are using the FFB system correctly No Setting Need Be above 1.0/100...IMO i would Not Recommend setting RAG above 1.0 because if this Fact.

Also Remember hen setting TF/RAC you Must Leave Room for FFB force expansion... Remember the fan principal even though you shut the power Off the Blades keep spinning until the residual power Dissapates... The FFB systm is the same way... The FFB spikes will Rise until the residual power dissapates therefore I recommend setting TF and RAC No Higher than 80 to avoid Clipping then adjust GM FFB to set the at the Wheel FFB strength that is right for you.

Feel Free to test this for yourself and Comment about your findings.

I did try your settings but did not like it: too heavy for me. But I was using Wheel FF at 75, not 50 like you do. I may give them another try later.

BigDad
08-02-2017, 12:01
Seriously? 'Kidos'? Typing from your iPhone again? Either it is a typo or we all shoud have kids...

Welcome!
You "shoud" lol use these .
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
Thank Me later :nevreness:
But seriously using G Dogs setting or anyone's on this thread and you cant really go wrong , then just fine tune it to your tastes .
I wonder how long before You move over to pc like the rest of Us?

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 12:03
You "shoud" lol use these.

Great... a typo within a rant about a typo. Nice P5 (lol) What can I say: I'm Dutch you know... Mwhaaaaa.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 12:07
Great... a typo within a rant about a typo. Nice P5 (lol) What can I say: I'm Dutch you know... Mwhaaaaa.

That's Bigdad.lol

Python-Five
08-02-2017, 12:08
Welcome!
You "shoud" lol use these .
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
Thank Me later :nevreness:
But seriously using G Dogs setting or anyone's on this thread and you cant really go wrong , then just fine tune it to your tastes .
I wonder how long before You move over to pc like the rest of Us?

PC by the end of the year... I just wanted to play games without spending too much money and bought a PS4. And a G29 with shifter and the rest is in my sig ;-) How is that for not spending too much money ;-)

morpwr
08-02-2017, 12:09
Welcome!
You "shoud" lol use these .
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
Thank Me later :nevreness:
But seriously using G Dogs setting or anyone's on this thread and you cant really go wrong , then just fine tune it to your tastes .
I wonder how long before You move over to pc like the rest of Us?

And then figure out there is all kinds of better hardware to buy....Hows the new wheel?

Haiden
08-02-2017, 12:17
Its not really nobody knew what was better like some of the settings but more your initial thought of what felt right was off a little. Myself I run a heavier wheel then i started with some have come down. But most of us are pretty close with that setting.So now would be the perfect time before you get used to the heavy wheel and have to readjust yourself. The ruf gt3 at the glen is a perfect example if you want to test the theory. A heavy wheel will make getting through the bus stop fast difficult because you need to be smooth to hit it right. If you've only driven two cars when you get into open open wheels or a high downforce car a heavy wheel will get real heavy and youll probably find yourself wanting to turn the wheel down. But yes practice,practice,practice. Like I said before just trying to give you some pointers before you settle in and go the route we did were it takes a few days to readjust yourself to a new setting.

I don't mind heavy wheels, as long as it's not clipping. Our wheels aren't even close to RL weights in professional cars. So, even thought it's harder, I like the closer to realism aspect of it. That's my whole interest in DD wheels, more fidelity, but also more difficulty/realism in dealing with the wheel. :)


PC by the end of the year... I just wanted to play games without spending too much money and bought a PS4. And a G29 with shifter and the rest is in my sig ;-) How is that for not spending too much money ;-) If you've got all that, I'd says you're definitely going to be on PC. Probably sooner than you think. :)

BigDad
08-02-2017, 12:35
And then figure out there is all kinds of better hardware to buy....Hows the new wheel?

Yeah , i always new there was all this better hardware just like i new about pc. (still cant figure out why i took so long going pc?) Now kicking myself about it.lol
The wheel is pretty sweet , just missing getting recognised in my favorite Sims .(but its coming) The best thing for me apart from the more direct and fine FFB is the amount , or should i say lack of drag it has , i spins sooo easily, makes drifting so much easier and enjoyable . My old GT2 was like turning a wheel underwater in comparison even with dri on 3 - 5.
Well worth the $.
How's the PC Racer?

Haiden
08-02-2017, 12:37
So I don't know. I did some more testing yesterday, and thought for sure PCars was broken, the way it handles FF, because it doesn't recognize adjustments made in the driver control panel. Whether I had the DCP set to 100, 50, or 10 made not difference in-game. The only thing that was recognized was the @wheel setting. However, changing this felt the same as changing the in-game FF, so I just left the wheel set to 100 and set FF/TF to 75/75 (no scoops, RA, or PWM), and that feels the best to me.

But then I switched over to AC and realized that once again, the DCP setting was being ignored. I must have lowered it at the wheel the other day when I discovered the less harsh forces, but so far, that two titles where the Fanatec DCP isn't being recognized. So it looks more like a Fanatec specific issue. I'm obviously guessing here, but as I thought about it. I began to wonder how/why the DCP and wheel setting could function anyway. I mean, if the DCP always worked, then the user could adjust set it to 80, but then also lower the @wheel force to 60, which would just be a weird thing to do. So it would make sense to design it so that the @wheel setting overrides the DCP when it's available. But I guess, if you have a modded wheel, or for some reason have @wheel settings, the DCP would work? IDK, all my wheels have @wheel settings, so I can't test that. But I know the @wheel settings are specific to your setup. Once I connected my pedals directly via USB, the @wheel Brake Force setting was no longer available. Anyway, I don't claim to know what the issue is, I'm just guessing. All I know is the DCP value doesn't seem to work in either of these titles. :(

Haiden
08-02-2017, 12:46
I like using the Dynamic FFB setting in AC's FFBClip app, it sorts it all out for me and feels great.
When on the straights at times it can go as high as 170 or so, which gives a nice tight wheel, then when turning a corner it will reduce it just enough to avoid clipping, and it feels very natural.

This worked fine on a couple cars, and then I tried it with the Porsche GT3 2016 and got massive clipping. It seems the forces were ramping up to quick in high speed corners for the app to compensate. I'm gonna try turning the master gain down a bit to see if that helps. Since the master and in-car gains are basically the same, the latter being just a fine-tuning extension of the former, it should be fine since the app is dynamically adjusting the gain.

I hope that works, because now that I've felt it on a few cars, I really want to use on all of them. It's amazing how underutilized the FFB is in certain areas of a track when you used a fixed gain setting. It hadn't really occurred to me before, but it makes perfect sense. You set the gain based on the highest forces experienced. So if there one or two high speed corners on a track that ramp up the force, you set you gain to avoid clipping in that area. But then all the other areas of the track suffer, because they don't come close to that level of force and actually have room for a little more gain. The dynamic gain solves that issue. I just wish it had a limiter, so you could at least set the ceiling on a per car basis.

Curious... do you get a lot of hard clipping in some cars? Did you lower your master gain, or are you running it at 1.0?

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 12:52
I did try your settings but did not like it: too heavy for me. But I was using Wheel FF at 75, not 50 like you do. I may give them another try later.

75 on wheel is too much... i was using 65 then 60 Now im at 50!! Thats the sweet spot... makes going through S turn's and chicanes really nice while still maintaining firm wheel weight and detailed FFB effects:yes:

morpwr
08-02-2017, 12:54
I don't mind heavy wheels, as long as it's not clipping. Our wheels aren't even close to RL weights in professional cars. So, even thought it's harder, I like the closer to realism aspect of it. That's my whole interest in DD wheels, more fidelity, but also more difficulty/realism in dealing with the wheel. :)

If you've got all that, I'd says you're definitely going to be on PC. Probably sooner than you think. :)

As long as it isn't so heavy it makes it hard to be smooth id agree. I'm running mine quite a bit heavier then I ever have before and I really like it with the new wheel. But I don't think they are as far away as everyone thinks. Probably the heaviest factory power steering car ive ever driven was a late 80s corvette(maybe early 90s but it always stuck with me how heavy it was). It was a lot heavier then anything else id ever driven as far as factory cars goes. Somewhere I ran across a list of cars someone found that had the torque it took to turn the wheel in some cars/racecars and some weren't nearly as high as youd expect. Obviously the open wheel stuff was up there at the top. After getting the new wheel though I totally agree with the comment about the dd wheel.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 12:58
Yeah , i always new there was all this better hardware just like i new about pc. (still cant figure out why i took so long going pc?) Now kicking myself about it.lol
The wheel is pretty sweet , just missing getting recognised in my favorite Sims .(but its coming) The best thing for me apart from the more direct and fine FFB is the amount , or should i say lack of drag it has , i spins sooo easily, makes drifting so much easier and enjoyable . My old GT2 was like turning a wheel underwater in comparison even with dri on 3 - 5.
Well worth the $.
How's the PC Racer?

I love it. Big step up from the t300. Now that ive had a taste of going up on the strength of the motor it really makes want a dd. I knew there was better stuff but I didn't know there was this many options on wheel,shifters,pedals,etc.

Roger Prynne
08-02-2017, 13:36
This worked fine on a couple cars, and then I tried it with the Porsche GT3 2016 and got massive clipping. It seems the forces were ramping up to quick in high speed corners for the app to compensate. I'm gonna try turning the master gain down a bit to see if that helps. Since the master and in-car gains are basically the same, the latter being just a fine-tuning extension of the former, it should be fine since the app is dynamically adjusting the gain.

I hope that works, because now that I've felt it on a few cars, I really want to use on all of them. It's amazing how underutilized the FFB is in certain areas of a track when you used a fixed gain setting. It hadn't really occurred to me before, but it makes perfect sense. You set the gain based on the highest forces experienced. So if there one or two high speed corners on a track that ramp up the force, you set you gain to avoid clipping in that area. But then all the other areas of the track suffer, because they don't come close to that level of force and actually have room for a little more gain. The dynamic gain solves that issue. I just wish it had a limiter, so you could at least set the ceiling on a per car basis.

Curious... do you get a lot of hard clipping in some cars? Did you lower your master gain, or are you running it at 1.0?

Don't forget that I have a G25 so there might be differences.
Funny enough when I first tried the dynamic setting it was with the Porsche GT3 2016 and it completely change the way I think about FFB, I've since tried it with lots of different cars and they all work perfectly (apart from some of the 'mod' cars, which are bad anyway)
In-game FFB @ 90 and CP at 90%

Also those two cars (Porsche GT3 2016/2017 cup) feel the most organic out of them all for me.

rosko
08-02-2017, 13:45
I don't mind heavy wheels, as long as it's not clipping. Our wheels aren't even close to RL weights in professional cars. So, even thought it's harder, I like the closer to realism aspect of it. That's my whole interest in DD wheels, more fidelity, but also more difficulty/realism in dealing with the wheel. :)

If you've got all that, I'd says you're definitely going to be on PC. Probably sooner than you think. :)

I think most cars have power assist though, so unless you drive older race cars it shouldn't be that heavy. DD wheel for me is for fidelity & stronger wheel on classic cars only.

bmanic
08-02-2017, 13:46
Ok that's exactly what I found on both thrustmaster wheels with regards to the feel. You just phrased it a lot better. I didn't think the control panel gain would have any effect but who knows until you try it. That's what ive been trying to say all along why wouldn't you want to maximize the ffb at the game and just control it with the control panel. To me with the wheel set at 100 feels overly heavy and exaggerated. Then turning the game down to compensate for that seems to lose the crispness and separation of the details while still adding some unwanted weight. But like you said its how it feels to you that matters.

I've been saying this since 2 years before pCars 1 was even released. It has been known forever.. there was a guy in the iRacing forums who basically noticed that most consumer wheels are NOT perfectly linear at their default settings or at maximum settings and that it varies heavily from wheel manufacturer and even between models from same lineup. This was all discussed almost 6 or 7 years ago.

Frankly, I'm extremely surprised to read people "rediscovering" these things. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

For instance, my Thrustmaster TX 458 feels most comfortable at a thrustmaster control panel gain setting of about 72 (it measured most linear at 69). My Thrustmaster T300 feels best at a gain setting of 80 (it measured most linear at 75). My Logitech DFGT feels best at a gain settings of 92 (it measured most linear at 99).

The basic formula has never changed, in any simulator as far as I know: 1) Maximize the FFB output of the game, just below acceptable clipping -> 2) Set the overall gain of the physical wheel from the manufacturers control panel.

Man.. I'm so confused. I thought everybody knew this by now. These things have been discussed forever in the simracing community.

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 13:46
I did try your settings but did not like it: too heavy for me. But I was using Wheel FF at 75, not 50 like you do. I may give them another try later.

You have Stumbled across what i have been trying to say.... With My settings i use Nothing above1.0/100 Yet they are Very powerful and will Not Clip!!! This is what My Global settings are all about:yes:

I have always said that the settings allow user to use any Fx,Fy, SOP settings that thay likr with out Fear or Clipping... So for example lets say you like JS custom Every Car FFB... Just Plug them in and use them simple... then Start with 100 in car Masters and + or - until the car feels right to you:yes:

I made the Globals so that these settings can be used with any wheel but Remember that GM FFB Must Be adjusted for at the wheel FFB strength thats best for you...With Fanatec wheels GM FFB 100 is fine and adjust the on wheel FFB so its right for you.

This is the point i have been trying to make all along... The Fx, Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP are very subjective settings and can be adjusted to bring out feel that user likes most... The important thing is you have Very powerful FFB that will Not Clip.

bmanic
08-02-2017, 13:55
I don't mind heavy wheels, as long as it's not clipping. Our wheels aren't even close to RL weights in professional cars. So, even thought it's harder, I like the closer to realism aspect of it. That's my whole interest in DD wheels, more fidelity, but also more difficulty/realism in dealing with the wheel. :)

If you've got all that, I'd says you're definitely going to be on PC. Probably sooner than you think. :)

You need to keep in mind that real drivers do not fight with latency. Even a few tenths of milliseconds of latency makes a huge difference. This is the Achilles heel of "realism" when it comes to FFB and looking at a screen (you have latency on two fronts where there is none in real life).

This latency is sometimes what causes the "fighting against the wheel" in simulators where there is "complete unity" with the wheel in real life. If you ever get a chance to do some track days or rallying you'll notice the difference. In real life you can quite comfortably let go of the steering wheel and use the self-aligning torque very much to your advantage.. and you know exactly how much you can rely on it due to the seat-of-the-pants feel you have. Everything is precise and instantaneous.

Now even in the best scenario, in a simulator you constantly need to anticipate things a bit (you need to do this in real life as well but it's more intuitive as it isn't delayed by latency) which confuses the muscle memory. This is also why you may be able to get really good consistent laps on your own system but as soon as you try to play on another system, even if the hardware is fairly similar, you may not be as consistent due to the varying latency. Try going from a PC setup with very low latency components (direct drive wheel + high refresh nsync monitor) to a console running on some crappy 40 inch TV. The difference in "connection" due to latency is enormous. It's so large that it makes it almost impossible to drive consistent fast laps.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 14:04
I've been saying this since 2 years before pCars 1 was even released. It has been known forever.. there was a guy in the iRacing forums who basically noticed that most consumer wheels are NOT perfectly linear at their default settings or at maximum settings and that it varies heavily from wheel manufacturer and even between models from same lineup. This was all discussed almost 6 or 7 years ago.

Frankly, I'm extremely surprised to read people "rediscovering" these things. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

For instance, my Thrustmaster TX 458 feels most comfortable at a thrustmaster control panel gain setting of about 72 (it measured most linear at 69). My Thrustmaster T300 feels best at a gain setting of 80 (it measured most linear at 75). My Logitech DFGT feels best at a gain settings of 92 (it measured most linear at 99).

The basic formula has never changed, in any simulator as far as I know: 1) Maximize the FFB output of the game, just below acceptable clipping -> 2) Set the overall gain of the physical wheel from the manufacturers control panel.

Man.. I'm so confused. I thought everybody knew this by now. These things have been discussed forever in the simracing community.

It was to me but there are still some saying you must set the wheel to 100 or you lose what the wheel can reproduce. I figured that out early on that it didn't feel right when pcars was only a couple months old. Turning down the ffb to control the wheel never made any sense to me. But Haiden figured it out by accident trying something in ac.

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 14:37
It was to me but there are still some saying you must set the wheel to 100 or you lose what the wheel can reproduce. I figured that out early on that it didn't feel right when pcars was only a couple months old. Turning down the ffb to control the wheel never made any sense to me. But Haiden figured it out by accident trying something in ac.

Please Elaborate??? im Not sure Which FFB your talking about??? The GM FFB or the in Car Masters???

IMO Turning Down the In Car Masters Never Made Any Sense:no: its Killing the Very thing we are Tweeing to Feel at the Source!!!

morpwr
08-02-2017, 14:42
Please Elaborate??? im Not sure Which FFB your talking about??? The GM FFB or the in Car Masters???

IMO Turning Down the In Car Masters Never Made Any Sense:no: its Killing the Very thing we are Tweeing to Feel at the Source!!!

No I'm talking about having to set the wheel at 100 in the profile screen or in the case of ps4 the game master.

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 14:51
I've been saying this since 2 years before pCars 1 was even released. It has been known forever.. there was a guy in the iRacing forums who basically noticed that most consumer wheels are NOT perfectly linear at their default settings or at maximum settings and that it varies heavily from wheel manufacturer and even between models from same lineup. This was all discussed almost 6 or 7 years ago.

Frankly, I'm extremely surprised to read people "rediscovering" these things. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

For instance, my Thrustmaster TX 458 feels most comfortable at a thrustmaster control panel gain setting of about 72 (it measured most linear at 69). My Thrustmaster T300 feels best at a gain setting of 80 (it measured most linear at 75). My Logitech DFGT feels best at a gain settings of 92 (it measured most linear at 99).

The basic formula has never changed, in any simulator as far as I know: 1) Maximize the FFB output of the game, just below acceptable clipping -> 2) Set the overall gain of the physical wheel from the manufacturers control panel.

Man.. I'm so confused. I thought everybody knew this by now. These things have been discussed forever in the simracing community.


I Agree with this 100% But you see there is this Guy thats Not a Dev... But he wears a WMD Logo on his Forum Tag so people Follow him Blindly because of that...Many dont Realize that He is Not a game Game Dev and has Nothing to do with the games Physics or Wheel/Controler programming!!! That He infact is just another person Tweeking FFB to His personal taste... This GM FFB 100 rule that has been Spread by him is False/wrong and has Greatly impeaded and Over Complicated the FFB tweeking process.

IMO Set the Globals to avoid Clipping--> Understand what setting brings out which Feel---> + or - until it feels Right--->Re-adjust GM FFB for the at the wheel FFB strength that feels right to you---> + or - the individual in Car Masters if Needed--->Run Test Laps---Race and Be Happy:yes:

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 14:53
No I'm talking about having to set the wheel at 100 in the profile screen or in the case of ps4 the game master.

Ok... PS4 with Fanatec wheels GM FFB has No Effect after 6 or 7.0 update... Haiden taught Me that:yes: LOL

morpwr
08-02-2017, 14:56
Ok... PS4 with Fanatec wheels GM FFB has No Effect after 6 or 7.0 update... Haiden taught Me that:yes: LOL

Right but you guys are the exception and can adjust it at the wheel. Basically same thing different spot.

Haiden
08-02-2017, 14:59
I think most cars have power assist though, so unless you drive older race cars it shouldn't be that heavy. DD wheel for me is for fidelity & stronger wheel on classic cars only.

Talk to an F1 driver. About what it takes to turn that wheel. :)

Haiden
08-02-2017, 15:03
Don't forget that I have a G25 so there might be differences.
Funny enough when I first tried the dynamic setting it was with the Porsche GT3 2016 and it completely change the way I think about FFB, I've since tried it with lots of different cars and they all work perfectly (apart from some of the 'mod' cars, which are bad anyway)
In-game FFB @ 90 and CP at 90%

Also those two cars (Porsche GT3 2016/2017 cup) feel the most organic out of them all for me.

I tried lowering the master gain, and that worked. The Porsche stays within range now, and the Ferrari feels exactly the same with dynamic FFB as it did with the gain at 100%. Big thanks for bringing that up. And you're right I Love the way the Porsche feels now.

Haiden
08-02-2017, 16:11
It was to me but there are still some saying you must set the wheel to 100 or you lose what the wheel can reproduce. I figured that out early on that it didn't feel right when pcars was only a couple months old. Turning down the ffb to control the wheel never made any sense to me. But Haiden figured it out by accident trying something in ac.

It's definitely an old rule, but you'd be surprise how many people don't know. When PCars first came out, I argued this point with some dude for a days. He thought I was stupid, and refused to believe it.

That being said, I think part of the current issue/confusion is the fact that the rule is old, and some things have changed since it was implemented. For one, Fanatec wheels seems to work differently. The driver control panel seems to have absolutely zero affect on force levels in-game in both PCars or AC. It doesn't matter if I set the DCP to 100, 50, or 10. It always feels the same in-game. In both PCars and AC, only the @wheel Force setting affects the force level in-game. So for me, a Fanatec user, the DCP is not relevant to the conversation. I'm not concerned with how it works in a TM 458, a TX, or G29, and my comments are not meant to be universal. I'm speaking and sharing my experience with Fanatec hardware. If anything can be extrapolated from that information and used with other wheels, great. And that is the hope. But please do not make the mistake of thinking I'm speaking universally or try to directly apply/compare my results with those from other hardware.

With that in mind, the @wheel setting in PCars seems to be the same as the in-game master FF, because [FF=100 + @wheel=50] feels exactly the same as [FF=50 + @wheel=100]. Exactly the same. I believe Grimey has also tested and mentioned this countless times before. So for Fanatec users, it doesn't matter if you attenuate with FF or @wheel. The end result is the same. Doing it @wheel is easier, though, because you can adjust it on the fly, without having to exit a session.

In AC, I'm not sure if the master gain and @wheel are identical, like they are in PCars, but I'm pretty sure the master gain is the same as the in-car gain, because adjustments to one or the other feel exactly the same. So, with that in mind, I've chosen to lower the master gain, so that I can let the in-car FFP app work dynamically and control the gain as I drive. Using this method, I can still attenuate with @wheel, if need be, but so far, it hasn't been necessary. If I stumble across a car where the forces feel a little harsh, I can tune it down @wheel.

IMO, the problem with PCars' system is that, in addition to whatever external hardware control is available (@wheel or DCP), there are three in-game controls in the mix--Global FF, TF, in-car FF. Other titles (that I've played) only have Global FF and in-car FF, and the latter is usually just a extension of the former for fine-tuning at the car level, and they both operate inside the FFB chain and influence what you see in the FFB meters, which makes tuning extremely logical and easy. Get rid of the global FF in PCars, and it looks like every other sim. But with Global FF in the mix, and the overlapping functionality it has with external hardware controls, it just complicates the crap out of the tuning process. And I honestly don't know why people think that having FF outside the chain and not represented in the FFB meter makes any logical sense whatsoever. And since the recommendation is to set it to FF to 100, and then attenuate outside the game in a DCP or @wheel control, global FF just seems like a useless scale that does nothing but create confusion.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 19:00
It's definitely an old rule, but you'd be surprise how many people don't know. When PCars first came out, I argued this point with some dude for a days. He thought I was stupid, and refused to believe it.

That being said, I think part of the current issue/confusion is the fact that the rule is old, and some things have changed since it was implemented. For one, Fanatec wheels seems to work differently. The driver control panel seems to have absolutely zero affect on force levels in-game in both PCars or AC. It doesn't matter if I set the DCP to 100, 50, or 10. It always feels the same in-game. In both PCars and AC, only the @wheel Force setting affects the force level in-game. So for me, a Fanatec user, the DCP is not relevant to the conversation. I'm not concerned with how it works in a TM 458, a TX, or G29, and my comments are not meant to be universal. I'm speaking and sharing my experience with Fanatec hardware. If anything can be extrapolated from that information and used with other wheels, great. And that is the hope. But please do not make the mistake of thinking I'm speaking universally or try to directly apply/compare my results with those from other hardware.

With that in mind, the @wheel setting in PCars seems to be the same as the in-game master FF, because [FF=100 + @wheel=50] feels exactly the same as [FF=50 + @wheel=100]. Exactly the same. I believe Grimey has also tested and mentioned this countless times before. So for Fanatec users, it doesn't matter if you attenuate with FF or @wheel. The end result is the same. Doing it @wheel is easier, though, because you can adjust it on the fly, without having to exit a session.

In AC, I'm not sure if the master gain and @wheel are identical, like they are in PCars, but I'm pretty sure the master gain is the same as the in-car gain, because adjustments to one or the other feel exactly the same. So, with that in mind, I've chosen to lower the master gain, so that I can let the in-car FFP app work dynamically and control the gain as I drive. Using this method, I can't still attenuate with @wheel, if need be, but so far, it hasn't been necessary. If I stumble across a car where the forces feel a little harsh, I can tune it down @wheel.

IMO, the problem with PCars' system is that, in addition to whatever external hardware control is available (@wheel or DCP), there are three in-game controls in the mix--Global FF, TF, in-car FF. Other titles (that I've played) only have Global FF and in-car FF, and the latter is usually just a extension of the former for fine-tuning at the car level, and they both operate inside the FFB chain and influence what you see in the FFB meters, which makes tuning extremely logical and easy. Get rid of the global FF in PCars, and it looks like every other sim. But with Global FF in the mix, and the overlapping functionality it has with external hardware controls, it just complicates the crap out of the tuning process. And I honestly don't know why people think that having FF outside the chain and not represented in the FFB meter makes any logical sense whatsoever. And since the recommendation is to set it to FF to 100, and then attenuate outside the game in a DCP or @wheel control, global FF just seems like a useless scale that does nothing but create confusion.

I know youre only speaking of your experience just like I can only speak from mine. The fact you have the extra setting on the wheel not using the dcp makes sense. Why do it twice? Like what you said about the ffb master setting. If we are going to set it at 100 and leave it why have it or leave it as another unnecessary option? Id guess that comes from being cross platform or possibly some wheels don't even have a dcp(maybe low end ones)? I totally agree the other games make more sense and are super easy with just a few settings to tweak for a little preference in feel. Even the app for ac is so simple its stupid. I do have to go back and try the variable setting again though. I tried it once and found what you did so I didn't really like it.But didn't think turning the gain down would work because in fixed mode it just goes the opposite of what you did with the gain so I just didn't try it again.

lancashirelad
08-02-2017, 19:26
Nearly 2 years of confusion ^^

Haiden
08-02-2017, 19:39
I know youre only speaking of your experience just like I can only speak from mine. The fact you have the extra setting on the wheel not using the dcp makes sense. Why do it twice? Like what you said about the ffb master setting. If we are going to set it at 100 and leave it why have it or leave it as another unnecessary option? Id guess that comes from being cross platform or possibly some wheels don't even have a dcp(maybe low end ones)? I totally agree the other games make more sense and are super easy with just a few settings to tweak for a little preference in feel. Even the app for ac is so simple its stupid. I do have to go back and try the variable setting again though. I tried it once and found what you did so I didn't really like it.But didn't think turning the gain down would work because in fixed mode it just goes the opposite of what you did with the gain so I just didn't try it again.

Don't forget to set the control to Auto; otherwise, you'll just be watching the calculator show constanly changing recommended gains... LOL


Also, found this at Race Department for anyone that hasn't seen it.


Ian Bell: "We have new physics and from that falls out new FFB. For this one we're shipping (as of now) 3 FFB preset options (we default 1 of course) that you can single click and get (hopefully!) the feel you prefer from the feedback. I'm biased but it's a huge step forward from the rocket science we had before. That rocket science is still hidden in sub menus and accessible for the more masochistic"​

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/pcars-2-announcement-trailer-released-massive-q-a.131576/

morpwr
08-02-2017, 19:46
Don't forget to set the control to Auto; otherwise, you'll just be watching the calculator show constanly changing recommended gains... LOL


Also, found this at Race Department for anyone that hasn't seen it.

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/pcars-2-announcement-trailer-released-massive-q-a.131576/

This will put a smile on your face.:) I just found a link by accident to an I racing forum where the owner of fanatec (Thomas something I recognized the name) offered to send a beta dd wheel as a replacement for the guy to test.
From what the post said it will use existing wheels.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 19:47
Nearly 2 years of confusion ^^

No confusion

morpwr
08-02-2017, 19:49
Don't forget to set the control to Auto; otherwise, you'll just be watching the calculator show constanly changing recommended gains... LOL


Also, found this at Race Department for anyone that hasn't seen it.



http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/pcars-2-announcement-trailer-released-massive-q-a.131576/

Yeah I caught that once you do a car and track it remembers which is nice.

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 22:55
Quote from Haidens post "Ian Bell: "We have new physics and from that falls out new FFB. For this one we're shipping (as of now) 3 FFB preset options (we default 1 of course) that you can single click and get (hopefully!) the feel you prefer from the feedback. I'm biased but it's a huge step forward from the rocket science we had before. That rocket science is still hidden in sub menus and accessible for the more masochistic"​





Woooo Hooo!!! get ready for lets talk FFB Thread II. or should we just continue it here...LOL

GrimeyDog
08-02-2017, 23:40
Very interesting!!! When i play using Oculus Rift i Feel Very comfortable using 50 on wheel FFB... Maybe its because the Rift puts you inside a virtual Car... It really Looks like your in the Car and can Reach down and Grab the Shifter and push the buttons on tge dash!!!

When i play on My TV on wheel 50 feels Light and i keep over steering... Very interesting.

morpwr
08-02-2017, 23:58
Quote from Haidens post "Ian Bell: "We have new physics and from that falls out new FFB. For this one we're shipping (as of now) 3 FFB preset options (we default 1 of course) that you can single click and get (hopefully!) the feel you prefer from the feedback. I'm biased but it's a huge step forward from the rocket science we had before. That rocket science is still hidden in sub menus and accessible for the more masochistic"​





Woooo Hooo!!! get ready for lets talk FFB Thread II. or should we just continue it here...LOL

Hopefully we wont need it. But that looks promising. Did you miss the post about the fanatic dd wheel?lol Figured youd be excited to hear that too.

morpwr
09-02-2017, 00:00
Very interesting!!! When i play using Oculus Rift i Feel Very comfortable using 50 on wheel FFB... Maybe its because the Rift puts you inside a virtual Car... It really Looks like your in the Car and can Reach down and Grab the Shifter and push the buttons on tge dash!!!

When i play on My TV on wheel 50 feels Light and i keep over steering... Very interesting.

Is it maybe because the depth perception is different? Not really that its light but its throwing youre timing off.

Haiden
09-02-2017, 00:28
This will put a smile on your face.:) I just found a link by accident to an I racing forum where the owner of fanatec (Thomas something I recognized the name) offered to send a beta dd wheel as a replacement for the guy to test.
From what the post said it will use existing wheels.

236921

morpwr
09-02-2017, 00:39
If you google it you will probably find the article. It was on a sim site.

GrimeyDog
09-02-2017, 00:40
Im looking for it i cant find it...Where is it??? i see the link to the Pcars2 post but Nothing about a Fanatec DD wheel.

Yes Thomas did confirm when asked on the forum thread that the DD wheel would use all existing wheel rims.

Haiden
09-02-2017, 00:44
If you google it you will probably find the article. It was on a sim site.

Unless it has an expected release date, I'm good just knowing it's close. If he's sending it as a replacement, I hope that means possibly this year. That's really the only thing keeping me from buying an Accuforce. It's worth the wait if I can stay with Fanatec and keep my existing rim set. :)

wizzer111
09-02-2017, 01:00
Try sim racing paddock