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spacepadrille
12-01-2016, 07:04
About the maths, the volume controls and the multipliers ; the point is that some "multipliers" are not "neutral multipliers". What I mean is that if for example I raise master scale, without changing Fx Fy Fz Mz, the global force will raise accordingly, but the balance between these forces will not be exactly the same after. That's not what maths says, but that's what my hands on the wheel feel.

Tyre Force, global FFB and Steering Gain are multipliers or volume controls, but NOT neutral multipliers or neutral volume controls. Non neutral means non linear. And that is why it is the mess and so much people are lost. Non linear systems can only be precisely described by maths, but nobody knows exactly which non linear equations to apply, as SMS didn't gave us the maths foundations of the system.

So maybe Grimey's "feeling" method is the best thing to do ;-)

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 07:56
Stock suspension is for little boys grimey lol. But i do race thar way when i run with snail, W.R.R.C.

I was Looking at My Replays and i saved the Replays of our Races...Maybe i shall post them yes??? LOL... that Stack suspension be working....LOL Vrooom Vrooom!!!

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 08:59
I can only speak for myself of course, but I've always been interested in how things work. Tinkering and discussing results with like-minded individuals is fun. :)
The math becomes more important when we start talking about things like the compression components. At least if you want a solid understanding of how they work. This kind of approach obviously isn't for everybody, and that's ok.

On several occasions Grimey, we've had similar conclusions but explain them with different language. For example -



My simple formula there shows exactly what you describe. TireForce, FyScale and MasterScale work just like volume controls on the forces coming out of the tire simulation. It also shows how settings higher than 100.0 would scale up or 'overdrive' as you put it, a given force at that particular stage.

You call them volume controls, I call them multipliers. We may be looking at it a little differently, but at the end of the day we're saying the same thing. At least in this instance. :)

I agree 100%... Most of the time im posting from my phone and Cant use the Emoticons :cool: dont take my post the wrong way...im Not Disputing yours or any tweek method.... Thank you for posting and Please continue to post... Feel Free the Math is very interesting... Ive spent alot of time cutting cars suspensions up with Math in different sims including PCars ...and Never was able to get the the Science to perfection... Maybe Close but always missing something...then i have to spend even more time Tweeking feeling it out...So in my case Feel tweeking saved me time because yes i Know the Math goes on for Months!!! I Have a Few Composition Note Books full of Mathematical Tweeks... Problem is for Me every Formula leads into another Formula and im back at it...Math is always exact science... If its off by just .005 your back at it looking for the Missing Link trying to balance the equation... its Very Very addictive.

i support math!!! 2+2 Always=4 Hell yeah thats a wise/Lazy mans friend... LOL Just too Many Variables and Unknown factors with PCars

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 09:04
Maybe im Just Not the Brightest Star in the Sky... But im Still Lost as to What Feel or What Exactly is the Goal of doing all the Math...Yes i can Follow the Math but im Lost as to what the end Result Goal is...

I have Spent Enough time with Math Equations and Sim Games it just Never works out right. There are just Too Many Variables that we dont Know... Ex: To Really Calculate The FFB Forces in PCars Mathematicaly it seems that you would First Need to Know Exactly what they Calculated Gravity at Ex: How much force does it take to Lift the wheel off the Gound, Then you Need to Know what is the Compression/ Expansion Force Value for Damper, Spring, Shocks per unit of Movement as Calculated by the Game... Then when thats all Added up you Need to Calculate the weight of the Car Ũ Gravity Ũ Down Force Generated at increasing increments according to Speed Ũ The Effect all these forces have when Cornering Low and High Speed.....IMO if you gonna Do it by Math Do it all the way... But again its too Many unknown Variables... and No one Knows the exact #'s besides SMS and they aint Talking...LOL!!!

Who came up with the Base # for the Math formula??? Seems to Me that SMS just threw the In Car FFB on the Cars with No Rhyme or Reason... IMO it was just a setting to give general Feel and was Not Mathematicaly or Scientificaly engineered for best feel of any kind or Sort. JMO.

Edit: Also because i just Tweek by Feel using the Sliders as Volume Controls to get best FFB Feel, i dont have to do any Steering Ratio Calculations/Adjust Arm angle ETC and i get what looks and Feels to be 1 to 1 Steering... My Driver hands on Steering wheel Pretty Much exactly match where my hands are at Per wheel movement... while it may Not be Exact due to input lag its Really Really Close!!!

IMO The Stock suspensions in PCars are Very Good with the Right wheel Tweek.

Stock Suspension isnīt very good in this Game. Stock Setups are designed for Safety Driving and Gamepad Users. If I tweak the Car Setup also, i can drive 2-3 seconds faster on most of the Cars than I can with the Standard Setup. Car Setup is as most important as FFB is. Also Iīm using Jacks Files with my own Global Wheel Settings since Release and it feels best for me and I can drive really fast and consistant with his files. I tested every Tweak that was posted in this Forum, but every time I go back to Jacks Files because they works best for me.

Sorry for my English, itīs not my first Language. :D

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 10:47
Stock Suspension isnīt very good in this Game. Stock Setups are designed for Safety Driving and Gamepad Users. If I tweak the Car Setup also, i can drive 2-3 seconds faster on most of the Cars than I can with the Standard Setup. Car Setup is as most important as FFB is. Also Iīm using Jacks Files with my own Global Wheel Settings since Release and it feels best for me and I can drive really fast and consistant with his files. I tested every Tweak that was posted in this Forum, but every time I go back to Jacks Files because they works best for me.

Sorry for my English, itīs not my first Language. :D

Sorry if i was un clear i Do Tweek the FFB settings but the car Suspension settings i Leave Stock....Very interesting point i find that wgen i used a Game Pad to Race i Needed to Tweek Car Suspension but Now using a Wheel i dont Need to tune the Car suspensions... I cannsee Maybe i will Need to Play with the Gears on some Tracks but other than that for Now the Stock Suspension is Good for Me.

Now that i have My FFB formula... I will play with some suspension tuning after the Next update...So far Laguna Seca i can Run 1:23.5 consistently with stock suspension My Fastest is a 1:23.015!!! The Track is Teasing Me trying to get to 1:22.xxx stock...Watkins Glen Gp 1:43.018 tryin to hit 1:42 stock and Brathurst i get 1:10.5 stock but im just learing that track about 1 1/2 weeks so im getting there... as it is Now I dont bother Suspension tuning because when they change the FFB, Tire Model or Track Grip Levels you have to Re-Tweek suspension all over again.

The Car Tuning can be More Complex than the FFB!!! Well at least for Me... Im a Auto Mechanic by Trade so my problem with Car Suspension is figuring out how all their settings Equate and React Compaired to the RL settings... and when things don't line up according to how i know they are supposed to it throws me for a Loop...EX: in Forza i could Never Ru the Space Man 10/40 Roll bar or Space Man Gear settings people were using to set top times because my Brain would Not accept that as Valid and True.
Tuning the FFB and Car Suspensons can and will Kill your Social Life..LOL

You will Never Be Faster than every 1 but as long as im Faster than Most im Not Getting in any Deeper than the FFB for Now...LOL... I've been, We all Have been at this FFB 8 months Thats Almost a Year!!! and only Now are Most Getting Good Results... But we all Still continue to Seek that missing Link to FFB perfection... For Me im 99.5% there. Suspension Tuning ATM is too deep to get nto unless i Have to... Time to Enjoy and take a Breather from Tweeking andnTesting... After 8mos im finaly Learning the Tracks...Even though some tracks Have been in Many Racing Games the kay out maybe the same but each Version is Different from the others Especially PCars because the Bumps, Curbs, Hills and Dips can be felt sooo Clearly and they affect the car in ways thats different from any other Sim.

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 10:49
https://youtu.be/J23uB-9qDu8

The Physics/FFB in Pcars is Very Good... Watch the Graph when i Go past the Starting Line... You will see the Graph jump up and down as i go past the Paint... Yes i can Feel that in the Wheel!!!! Very Nice!!!

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 10:54
Sorry if i was un clear i Do Tweek the FFB settings but the car Suspension settings i Leave Stock....Very interesting point i find that wgen i used a Game Pad to Race i Needed to Tweek Car Suspension but Now using a Wheel i dont Need to tune the Car suspensions... I cannsee Maybe i will Need to Play with the Gears on some Tracks but other than that for Now the Stock Suspension is Good for Me.

Now that i have My FFB formula... I will play with some suspension tuning after the Next update...So far Laguna Seca i can Run 1:23.5 consistently with stock suspension My Fastest is a 1:23.015!!! The Track is Teasing Me trying to get to 1:22.xxx stock...Watkins Glen Gp 1:43.018 tryin to hit 1:42 stock and Brathurst i get 1:10.5 stock but im just learing that track about 1 1/2 weeks so im getting there... as it is Now I dont bother Suspension tuning because when they change the FFB, Tire Model or Track Grip Levels you have to Re-Tweek suspension all over again.

The Car Tuning can be More Complex than the FFB!!! Well at least for Me... Im a Auto Mechanic by Trade so my problem with Car Suspension is figuring out how all their settings Equate and React Compaired to the RL settings... and when things don't line up according to how i know they are supposed to it throws me for a Loop...EX: in Forza i could Never Ru the Space Man 10/40 Roll bar or Space Man Gear settings people were using to set top times because my Brain would Not accept that as Valid and True.
Tuning the FFB and Car Suspensons can and will Kill your Social Life..LOL

You will Never Be Faster than every 1 but as long as im Faster than Most im Not Getting in any Deeper than the FFB for Now...LOL... I've been, We all Have been at this FFB 8 months Thats Almost a Year!!! and only Now are Most Getting Good Results... But we all Still continue to Seek that missing Link to FFB perfection... For Me im 99.5% there. Suspension Tuning ATM is too deep to get nto unless i Have to... Time to Enjoy and take a Breather from Tweeking andnTesting... After 8mos im finaly Learning the Tracks...Even though some tracks Have been in Many Racing Games the kay out maybe the same but each Version is Different from the others Especially PCars because the Bumps, Curbs, Hills and Dips can be felt sooo Clearly and they affect the car in ways thats different from any other Sim.

Sry to say this, but your Times arenīt impressive at all. With Stock Setup i canīt get faster too, but with my Setups Iīm 2 seconds faster on Laguna Seca and Watkins Glen and even 4 seconds faster on Bathurst. Itīs all about a good Setup in Sim Racing. You canīt run the same Setup 1:1 on every Track, that simply doesnīt work. And yeah youīre right that the Setup can get quite complex and some things doesnīt behave like it does in RL. But it doesnīt cost that much time to tweak the Car Setups. I have my Setup ready and working after about 30-45 mins, and from then itīs only fine tuning for the Track i Race on. And as I said, I donīt need to Tweek my FFB because Iīm finished tweaking the FFB for a long time.

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 11:14
I only Tune the FFB and in car FFB Settings, I find the stock Suspension Very Good in PCars.

I will Never be Faster than All but as Long as im Faster than Most i find No Need to tune suspension... Maybe i will Tweek the Gears but im Not Getting into the suspension tuning for Now.

The Best Tune is the 1 you are Most Consistant with.

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 11:26
Sry to say this, but your Times arenīt impressive at all. With Stock Setup i canīt get faster too, but with my Setups Iīm 2 seconds faster on Laguna Seca and Watkins Glen and even 4 seconds faster on Bathurst. Itīs all about a good Setup in Sim Racing. You canīt run the same Setup 1:1 on every Track, that simply doesnīt work. And yeah youīre right that the Setup can get quite complex and some things doesnīt behave like it does in RL. But it doesnīt cost that much time to tweak the Car Setups. I have my Setup ready and working after about 30-45 mins, and from then itīs only fine tuning for the Track i Race on. And as I said, I donīt need to Tweek my FFB because Iīm finished tweaking the FFB for a long time.

I will Come to XBox and Beat some of your times if you wish... Send a Friend Requet so i can find you on the Leader boards...We can even have a Race Off... LOL... Im Pretty Sure the Times on XB1 are Faster than PS4 because i can Run Watkins Glen Gp 1:42.xxx on XB1... I just refer to the system i play the Most... I have Maybe 10hrs playing XB1 pcars... and im Sure XB1 PCars Has More Grip than PS4 PCars... XB1 Tire Model still Feels like its on 6.0 but without the Tire Heat issue people were talking about..... But yes send me a Friend Request or Give me your Gamer Tag and i will send you 1....This will be Fun... Yaaay i finaly have a Reason to Play Xbox Now:D

I stay on PS4 because of the Better Graphics and Frame Rate... But yes i Have the V2 XB1 Hub it can Finally get some use;)

Edit: Yes i too have I've been using this same Tweek Since SMS put the spring sliders in... i think that was 2.0 or 3.0 when i get board i test and tweek but akways go back to my Basic tweek Method.... Cant Hurt to Explore.

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 11:36
I will Come to XBox and Beat some of your times if you wish... Send a Friend Requet so i can find you on the Leader boards...We can even have a Race Off... LOL... Im Pretty Sure the Times on XB1 are Faster than PS4 because i can Run Watkins Glen Gp 1:42.xxx on XB1... I just refer to the system i play the Most... I have Maybe 10hrs playing XB1 pcars... and im Sure XB1 PCars Has More Grip than PS4 PCars... XB1 Tire Model still Feels like its on 6.0 but without the Tire Heat issue people were talking about..... But yes send me a Friend Request or Give me your Gamer Tag and i will send you 1....This will be Fun... Yaaay i finaly have a Reason to Play Xbox Now:D

I stay on PS4 because of the Better Graphics and Frame Rate... But yes i Have the V2 XB1 Hub it can Finally get some use;)

I play it on PC too and my Lap Times are allways the same. And no XB1 PCars donīt have more grip than the other Versions, especially after the last 2 Patches the tires have way less grip than Patch 5.0 because of the broken Tire Heating. Will sent you an invite later.

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 13:22
I play it on PC too and my Lap Times are allways the same. And no XB1 PCars donīt have more grip than the other Versions, especially after the last 2 Patches the tires have way less grip than Patch 5.0 because of the broken Tire Heating. Will sent you an invite later.

in Comparison to PS4 XB1 Has More Grip... My Times on Xbox are Faster.. But i mainly play PS4... I did also do a Time Comparison between PS4 & XB1... XB1 may have Less Grip but PS4 has even less Grip ... Just my findings according to feel and times.

I'm Not a Big Leader Board Hot Lap Set up guy.. I can Do it but Hot Lap Times are Not my Focus especialy in a Sim with Tire Heat/Wear, and Engine Damage... i Have won Many Many Races because the others had Hot Lap set ups on and Could Not be Consistent, Blew up their Motors or their Tires were Fried after 3 Laps.... I always Race with Full Damage, Mechanical Failure and Tire wear on... Patch 6.0 was the Best and the most Realistic IMO...I Know for shure i can Go 8 laps on laguna with Low 1:25xxx times with a Few Laps pushed to 1:24.5xx before i Need to pit for Tires... same for many other tracks... I always Race a Sim as a Sim.

When i Speak of a Times i Speak of times i have Ran in Races Not Hot Lap Times those are easy...I Need to upgrade and invest in a Good Gaming PC...Im wirking on it... You have any Good PC Specs youcan Recommend??? I want a Good PC Set up that i wont have to upgrade for the Next 3 or so years.

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 13:34
in Comparison to PS4 XB1 Has More Grip... My Times on Xbox are Faster.. But i mainly play PS4... I did also do a Time Comparison between PS4 & XB1... XB1 may have Less Grip but PS4 has even less Grip ... Just my findings according to feel and times.

I'm Not a Big Leader Board Hot Lap Set up guy.. I can Do it but Hot Lap Times are Not my Focus especialy in a Sim with Tire Heat/Wear, and Engine Damage... i Have won Many Many Races because the others had Hot Lap set ups on and Could Not be Consistent, Blew up their Motors or their Tires were Fried after 3 Laps.... I always Race with Full Damage, Mechanical Failure and Tire wear on... Patch 6.0 was the Best and the most Realistic IMO...I Know for shure i can Go 8 laps on laguna with Low 1:25xxx times with a Few Laps pushed to 1:24.5xx before i Need to pit for Tires... same for many other tracks... I always Race a Sim as a Sim.

When i Speak of a Times i Speak of times i have Ran in Races Not Hot Lap Times those are easy...I Need to upgrade and invest in a Good Gaming PC...Im wirking on it... You have any Good PC Specs youcan Recommend??? I want a Good PC Set up that i wont have to upgrade for the Next 3 or so years.

Yeah Iīm not a huge fan of hotlapping too and enjoy Racing more than Hotlapping. Iīm a Mod on a Big German Sim Racing Forum for XB1 an we are doing League Races and other Events all the Time and there are a few othe freaking fast guys that I race against. I won our last GT3 League by Miles and at the Moment Iīm leading in Season 2 with 1 Race to go at Bathurst on next Friday.

Good Question about good PC Setup. At the moment Iīm running PCars, Raceroom and Assetto Corsa on my 5-6 Years old PC with a AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Series CPU with 4x3,4GHz, a Geforce GTX770 GPU that I bought couple weeks ago from a Friend, 8GB Ram. PCars runs with smooth 60FPS @ 1080p and Graphic Settings on Low to Medium and it looks better than the XB1 Version.
But with a Intel Core I7 and a Geforce 970 or 980TI and 8-16GB Ram you can run Pcars and all the other Games @ 1080p and Ultra Settings for quite a long time.

Send you a Friend Request on XB1.

Haiden
12-01-2016, 14:32
When i Speak of a Times i Speak of times i have Ran in Races Not Hot Lap Times those are easy...I Need to upgrade and invest in a Good Gaming PC...Im wirking on it... You have any Good PC Specs youcan Recommend??? I want a Good PC Set up that i wont have to upgrade for the Next 3 or so years.


Yeah Iīm not a huge fan of hotlapping too and enjoy Racing more than Hotlapping.

For true accuracy, you should take your race setup and run a TT. Race lap times can be a bit skewed, because you can draft the car ahead and pickup quite a bit of time, especially on tracks with long straights. For that reason, whenever I set a new best in a race, pre-race practice, or qualifying session, I always put a "P" next to the time, so I know. Otherwise, I could end up chasing an impossible lap when tuning.

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 15:22
For true accuracy, you should take your race setup and run a TT. Race lap times can be a bit skewed, because you can draft the car ahead and pickup quite a bit of time, especially on tracks with long straights. For that reason, whenever I set a new best in a race, pre-race practice, or qualifying session, I always put a "P" next to the time, so I know. Otherwise, I could end up chasing an impossible lap when tuning.

Thats True about Drafting but Hard to Draft when your in Front... LOL... I see the Crash Dummies Behind Me and Realy Push Hard the First few Laps to get a Lead cause you allready Know whats going to Happen should you let them Catch up...Thats when i usually Run My Fastest Laps Trying to Run from the Crash Dummies.... Depending on Track i sand bag some times because i dont want Pole position then they Know who to take out first... When you set a Good Qualifying Lap you become a Target for Corner Cushion Take out even by some of the Fast Guys!!! SMH...I've even seen a Few fast guys sitting in Pole Position Parked Blocking the Fast line trough Corners to slow people down so you cant knowk them outta that P1 slot...WTF???

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 15:24
For true accuracy, you should take your race setup and run a TT. Race lap times can be a bit skewed, because you can draft the car ahead and pickup quite a bit of time, especially on tracks with long straights. For that reason, whenever I set a new best in a race, pre-race practice, or qualifying session, I always put a "P" next to the time, so I know. Otherwise, I could end up chasing an impossible lap when tuning.

I can run my Times in TT, Race, Qualifying, Free Practice. Makes no difference if you know how to drive on that Car/Track Combo. :D

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 15:32
Last Night in the Mecedes DTM Car i Ran a Time with the Stock tune that would have put Me 38th on the Boards.... I was just messing around putting my FFB in the Car to Test it on Watkins Glen Short... Yes i like the Watkins Glen Tracks because they are Bumpy and Give Good FFB Feel but yhey are also Very Tricky Fast Tracks too... you Have to Be on point to Keep your Speed up in the Corners.. Thats where the Race is won or lost with Especially with those tracks... I Can Keep a Stock Gt3 Ruf up to pace with the Audi and McClaren on them with No Problem and Pull away from them in the Turns!!! The Ruf Loses alot of time on the Straights.. but No Prob cause the Next turn comes up Quick. LOL

Haiden
12-01-2016, 15:43
Thats True about Drafting but Hard to Draft when your in Front... LOL... I see the Crash Dummies Behind Me and Realy Push Hard the First few Laps to get a Lead cause you allready Know whats going to Happen should you let them Catch up...Thats when i usually Run My Fastest Laps Trying to Run from the Crash Dummies.... Depending on Track i sand bag some times because i dont want Pole position then they Know who to take out first... When you set a Good Qualifying Lap you become a Target for Corner Cushion Take out even by some of the Fast Guys!!! SMH...I've even seen a Few fast guys sitting in Pole Position Parked Blocking the Fast line trough Corners to slow people down so you cant knowk them outta that P1 slot...WTF???

That just seems like a cluster. That's why I don't really do much online racing in PCars. I rather race in a league, but those haven't been faring well, due to the permanent bugs, glitches, and routine changes. I'm not complaining, though. I'm fine with the single player experience, and the occasional online session. The biggest problem for me with online, though, is that it's pretty much all GT3, and I prefer open wheel. It takes me a while to adjust my driving style and settle into GT3, more than just a 15-30 minute practice. That, coupled with not being familiar with a track or having not driven it for a while, just makes me shrug and go back to single player. But every now and then I find an FC or FA session going on. Or a track that I know well enough to compensate for not being used to GT3.


I can run my Times in TT, Race, Qualifying, Free Practice. Makes no difference if you know how to drive on that Car/Track Combo. :D

I know that. :) I was referring to the boost from drafting, not the skill related to driving the car/track.

P1ckN1cker2406
12-01-2016, 15:47
That just seems like a cluster. That's why I don't really do much online racing in PCars. I rather race in a league, but those haven't been faring well, due to the permanent bugs, glitches, and routine changes.



I know that. :) I was referring to the boost from drafting, not the skill related to driving the car/track.

Yeah I know what you mean, the thing with drafting is you are faster on the straights that for sure but you loose also downforce in the corners and there you loose all the time you are gaining on the straights.

Haiden
12-01-2016, 15:51
Yeah I know what you mean, the thing with drafting is you are faster on the straights that for sure but you loose also downforce in the corners and there you loose all the time you are gaining on the straights.

Unless you pass them on the straights. ;) No, I know what you mean. That's why I just put a "p" by best lap times achieved in races. Just to remind me that I might not be able to duplicate that in tuning session. :)

gotdirt410sprintcar
12-01-2016, 16:35
I was Looking at My Replays and i saved the Replays of our Races...Maybe i shall post them yes??? LOL... that Stack suspension be working....LOL Vrooom Vrooom!!!
That's fine my car was mostly stock other than RH springs some othere stuff nothing to extreme

GrimeyDog
12-01-2016, 20:55
P1ckN1cker2406 Git Sum!!! Git Sum!!! LOL
The stock Suspension fits my driving style perfect!!! No added Down force No Gear tuning!!!
I think the stock car set ups are pretty Good...Yes i can tweek the Gears a bit to get more outta it but as long as I'm competitive and its Not a league Race I'm fine with results like this:cool:

Convince Me to Tweek and Tune the Suspensions...Same Car Same Track Lets see what your Suspension Tweeking Gets you... This was on PS4... this took 5 laps... im a Gt3 Ruf guy so i dont run this car much feels like Gt3 just faster.... I will Run it on XB1 Later Tonight.

Don't mind the awkward picture angle... that's the Curve in the TV...LOL

tennenbaum
12-01-2016, 22:15
I'm not sure if you're assuming that the Fxyz components are all coming out of the physics system at a value of 1.0 for the sake of this excercise, or if we have a fundamentally different view?

In the case of Fy clipping at 0.26, this is my understanding -

STM Fy(4.0) * TireForce(1.0) * FyScale(0.26) * MasterScale(1.0) = 1.04.

Can you clarify?

Yes, I used Fxyz values of 100 to keep the math simpler. Thanks for asking!

We know Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm are nothing else than multipliers too that we use to weight how much of the "true" tire-forces we wanna feel in our personal FFB mix.

With "true" tire forces i mean the forces calculated by the game's physic engine to be in effect between tire and track - as a result of your driving.

So, yes, as you pointed it out : STM Fy(4.0) * TireForce(1.0) * FyScale(0.26) * MasterScale(1.0) = 1.04.

I don't know what you mean by "STM" (please clarify ;-), but nevertheless i guess we're both on the same page with our mutual understandings of the simplicity of the TF Fxyzm MS multipliers.

tennenbaum
12-01-2016, 22:23
I can only speak for myself of course, but I've always been interested in how things work. Tinkering and discussing results with like-minded individuals is fun. :)
The math becomes more important when we start talking about things like the compression components. At least if you want a solid understanding of how they work. This kind of approach obviously isn't for everybody, and that's ok.

On several occasions Grimey, we've had similar conclusions but explain them with different language. For example -



My simple formula there shows exactly what you describe. TireForce, FyScale and MasterScale work just like volume controls on the forces coming out of the tire simulation. It also shows how settings higher than 100.0 would scale up or 'overdrive' as you put it, a given force at that particular stage.

You call them volume controls, I call them multipliers. We may be looking at it a little differently, but at the end of the day we're saying the same thing. At least in this instance. :)

skoader, you put it perfectly.

poirqc
12-01-2016, 23:51
Yes, I used Fxyz values of 100 to keep the math simpler. Thanks for asking!

We know Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm are nothing else than multipliers too that we use to weight how much of the "true" tire-forces we wanna feel in our personal FFB mix.

With "true" tire forces i mean the forces calculated by the game's physic engine to be in effect between tire and track - as a result of your driving.

So, yes, as you pointed it out : STM Fy(4.0) * TireForce(1.0) * FyScale(0.26) * MasterScale(1.0) = 1.04.

I don't know what you mean by "STM" (please clarify ;-), but nevertheless i guess we're both on the same page with our mutual understandings of the simplicity of the TF Fxyzm MS multipliers.

Simulated Tire Model?

tennenbaum
12-01-2016, 23:55
Simulated Tire Model?

got that, but where can i set there a value to 4.0?

poirqc
13-01-2016, 00:32
got that, but where can i set there a value to 4.0?

That's a good question!

As for STM, i didn't talk to skaoder about it, i just throwed it out of nowhere. :)

skoader
13-01-2016, 00:37
STM = Seta Tire Model.

I was working backwards - If isolating and running FyScale at 0.26 results in an output force of 1.0 at a given point in time then by my understanding the raw Fy value passed in at that point was around 4.0.

tennenbaum
13-01-2016, 00:44
About the maths, the volume controls and the multipliers ; the point is that some "multipliers" are not "neutral multipliers". What I mean is that if for example I raise master scale, without changing Fx Fy Fz Mz, the global force will raise accordingly, but the balance between these forces will not be exactly the same after. That's not what maths says, but that's what my hands on the wheel feel.

Tyre Force, global FFB and Steering Gain are multipliers or volume controls, but NOT neutral multipliers or neutral volume controls. Non neutral means non linear. And that is why it is the mess and so much people are lost. Non linear systems can only be precisely described by maths, but nobody knows exactly which non linear equations to apply, as SMS didn't gave us the maths foundations of the system.

So maybe Grimey's "feeling" method is the best thing to do ;-)

You nailed it perfectly: Linear multipliers that don't feel linear!

The entire sim is an elaborated spring-mass-damper-system… And thankfully it is!

That's the reason we all hang around here, play pCArs instead of other sims, engage and have fun sharing our findings and believes. And i bet we - who are discussing this totally crazy stuff - can burn some pretty decent hot laps into the tarmac. In real life and in a sim.

Racing needs science and engineers to make the drivers shine and succeed. In real life as in sims. And GrimeyDog is a driver! (He does LagunaSeca in the Ruf 8 GT3 in 1.23.xxx, i do it in 1.27.xxx… no comment on that ;-) But my poor driving doesn't hold me back to have fun with pCars' intriguing gameplay, and the freedom to tweak! - and my engineering nerdy-ness.

Here my fresh statement: Beside RAG and Softclippers, TireForce Fxyzm, spindle master scale, steering gain, and FFB master are as linear as they can be.

…that doesn't mean that the chain of multipliers feels linear. …mass damper, your human non-linear physiology, and so on… Well, i won't stress it no more ;-)

Though, the question was: why to bother with the math of the game anyway? …i let you know when i do Laguna Seca in less that 1.23 :-)

And hey… wouldn't it be fun to find out, that the reason why you guys can provide great FFB settings thanks to an "invisible computation headroom" that you use - without knowing it :-) :-) :-)

However, i still believe it'd be an achievement if all the learnings and track-proven facts about FFB could be condensed to a reference guide that is valid and comprehensive.

Because pCars has an enormous freedom of personal adjustments, and i hope that SMS doesn't change it with pCars 2. So it's good if pCars finds a larger community beyond our small special interest group… pCars is one of the seldom really great indie-games that you wonder how that could happen at such a high level, while competing against money-loaded a bit boring mainstream games like e.g. Forza. I like to support pCars because of that. And making it more accessible to newcomers is cool. And let's be realistic: There are good reason, why the devs keep quit about our questions. You don't wanna go down the rabbit whole…

Have a nice drive!

tennenbaum
13-01-2016, 00:49
STM = Seta Tire Model.

I was working backwards - If isolating and running FyScale at 0.26 results in an output force of 1.0 at a given point in time then by my understanding the raw Fy value passed in at that point was around 4.0.

Got you. That's mind-boggling. We'll be alone here soon ;-)

morpwr
13-01-2016, 00:57
Got you. That's mind-boggling. We'll be alone here soon ;-)

I don't think that will happen. lol

poirqc
13-01-2016, 02:25
You nailed it perfectly: Linear multipliers that don't feel linear!

The entire sim is an elaborated spring-mass-damper-system… And thankfully it is!

That's the reason we all hang around here, play pCArs instead of other sims, engage and have fun sharing our findings and believes. And i bet we - who are discussing this totally crazy stuff - can burn some pretty decent hot laps into the tarmac. In real life and in a sim.

Racing needs science and engineers to make the drivers shine and succeed. In real life as in sims. And GrimeyDog is a driver! (He does LagunaSeca in the Ruf 8 GT3 in 1.23.xxx, i do it in 1.27.xxx… no comment on that ;-) But my poor driving doesn't hold me back to have fun with pCars' intriguing gameplay, and the freedom to tweak! - and my engineering nerdy-ness.

Here my fresh statement: Beside RAG and Softclippers, TireForce Fxyzm, spindle master scale, steering gain, and FFB master are as linear as they can be.

…that doesn't mean that the chain of multipliers feels linear. …mass damper, your human non-linear physiology, and so on… Well, i won't stress it no more ;-)

Though, the question was: why to bother with the math of the game anyway? …i let you know when i do Laguna Seca in less that 1.23 :-)

And hey… wouldn't it be fun to find out, that the reason why you guys can provide great FFB settings thanks to an "invisible computation headroom" that you use - without knowing it :-) :-) :-)

However, i still believe it'd be an achievement if all the learnings and track-proven facts about FFB could be condensed to a reference guide that is valid and comprehensive.

Because pCars has an enormous freedom of personal adjustments, and i hope that SMS doesn't change it with pCars 2. So it's good if pCars finds a larger community beyond our small special interest group… pCars is one of the seldom really great indie-games that you wonder how that could happen at such a high level, while competing against money-loaded a bit boring mainstream games like e.g. Forza. I like to support pCars because of that. And making it more accessible to newcomers is cool. And let's be realistic: There are good reason, why the devs keep quit about our questions. You don't wanna go down the rabbit whole…

Have a nice drive!

That's why i tried to tell people how the various global settings works, in the baseline thread, instead of what values they should use. To the best of my knowledge, at least. And it's far from comprehensive.

At the same time, it seems recent sims go towards the FxyzMz model. Look at Dirt, to me, it looks similar to pCars, the tools are just worded differently. When tried it first, i was able to tune the FFB in 15 minutes straight! Let's say that all the time i spent in pCars FFB menus payed off. In Dirt, instant settings saving, in game, also helped alot! :)

In Dirt you have:
Self aligning torque : Mz
Wheel Friction : Fx
Tire Friction : Fy
Suspension : Fz
Tire Slip : SoP

At the end of the day, every way we use to understand the FFB is a good one, as long as we get something out of it! :D
(enough of the cheerleading!, i should go back to testing)

poirqc
13-01-2016, 02:29
Last Night in the Mecedes DTM Car i Ran a Time with the Stock tune that would have put Me 38th on the Boards.... I was just messing around putting my FFB in the Car to Test it on Watkins Glen Short... Yes i like the Watkins Glen Tracks because they are Bumpy and Give Good FFB Feel but yhey are also Very Tricky Fast Tracks too... you Have to Be on point to Keep your Speed up in the Corners.. Thats where the Race is won or lost with Especially with those tracks... I Can Keep a Stock Gt3 Ruf up to pace with the Audi and McClaren on them with No Problem and Pull away from them in the Turns!!! The Ruf Loses alot of time on the Straights.. but No Prob cause the Next turn comes up Quick. LOL

Is there a place to have a look at TT for PS4 and Xbox One on the web, i tried to find it but i couldn't.

There's less PC player and i wanted to compare my time to a wider audience.

Thanks,

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 03:22
Is there a place to have a look at TT for PS4 and Xbox One on the web, i tried to find it but i couldn't.

There's less PC player and i wanted to compare my time to a wider audience.

Thanks,

Im not sure...i will investigate... just ran the DTM Merc Watkins Glen Short... Same car Track for XB1 and 1:04.767 just a Hair faster than the PS4 time 1:04.871.....That time put me at #7 on the XB1 board for that car and Track... top time is almost 2 sec faster... but im Not Tuning Car to Catch it....that s probabley a hot lap set up that wont be good for racing

I used same FFB Tweek i use on PS4 Just for XB1 i have master set lower at 25 vs PS4 master 35... The XB1 FFB is Notabley Stronger than the PS4 at same Game Master FFB setting.... other than that Feel is almost identical.

P1ckN1cker2406
13-01-2016, 09:22
Im not sure...i will investigate... just ran Same car Track for XB1 and 1:04.767 just a Hair faster than the PS4...That time put me at #7 on the XB1 board for that car and Track... top time is almost 2 sec faster... but im Not Tuning Car to Catch it....that s probabley a hot lap set up tbat wont be good for racing

I used same FFB Tweek i use on PS4 Just for XB1 i have master set lower at 25 vs PS4 master 35... The XB1 FFB is Notabley Stronger than the PS4 at same Game Master FFB setting.... other than that Feel is almost identical.

Will try your time later today with my RACE Setup. :cool: I always setup my Car for Race and not for Hotlapping, but most of my Race Setups are good for Top 3 Leaderboard Times.

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 10:36
Will try your time later today with my RACE Setup. :cool: I always setup my Car for Race and not for Hotlapping, but most of my Race Setups are good for Top 3 Leaderboard Times.

I chose the DTM Merc because it has a leader board of its own... its Not mixed like Gt cars where Gt1 --> Gt4 show on 1 board... Just a Random experiment to see how stock set ups can get on the boards.... but Pcars Needs more DTM Cars in the Game... they are very Nice to Drive. Very suprised yhey dont have the Audi and BMW DTM cars... SMS should add them.

P1ckN1cker2406
13-01-2016, 10:45
I chose the DTM Merc because it has a leader board of its own... its Not mixed like Gt cars where Gt1 --> Gt4 show on 1 board... Just a Random experiment to see how stock set ups can get on the boards.... but Pcars Needs more DTM Cars in the Game... they are very Nice to Drive. Very suprised yhey dont have the Audi and BMW DTM cars... SMS should add them.

Yeah the DTM Merc is very nice to drive. SMS had the Audi DTM in Development long before release and it was ingame for a short time, but it seems they didnīt got the licence or it was just too expensive. I also love to drive the old DTM Cars and Group 5 Cars with H-Shifter.

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 10:52
I have been thinking to get the Fanatec H pattern... just Havent Pulled the Trigger on it yet... Maybe i will place order today when i get in.... are they Really Fun to use???

P1ckN1cker2406
13-01-2016, 11:02
I have been thinking to get the Fanatec H pattern... just Havent Pulled the Trigger on it yet... Maybe i will place order today when i get in.... are they Really Fun to use???

I had my doubts about an H pattern also, but i got the TH8RS from a Friend and itīs a blast to drive with. It makes so much fun and on most of the cars youīre faster with an h pattern than with the auto clutch. Now I canīt imagine playing without it. :D

morpwr
13-01-2016, 11:22
That's why i tried to tell people how the various global settings works, in the baseline thread, instead of what values they should use. To the best of my knowledge, at least. And it's far from comprehensive.

At the same time, it seems recent sims go towards the FxyzMz model. Look at Dirt, to me, it looks similar to pCars, the tools are just worded differently. When tried it first, i was able to tune the FFB in 15 minutes straight! Let's say that all the time i spent in pCars FFB menus payed off. In Dirt, instant settings saving, in game, also helped alot! :)

In Dirt you have:
Self aligning torque : Mz
Wheel Friction : Fx
Tire Friction : Fy
Suspension : Fz
Tire Slip : SoP

At the end of the day, every way we use to understand the FFB is a good one, as long as we get something out of it! :D
(enough of the cheerleading!, i should go back to testing)

Even though us old coots:rolleyes: might take the more hands on approach and tune by feel its still really helpful to know why it works. Spent a couple hours the other night ready up on the pacejka magic formula. Actually finding out what most call bump feel is actually weight on the tire is pretty important to understanding how this really works. Not only is that where bump feel comes from it also contributes to the feel of grip heavily without adding wheel weight.

Fight-Test
13-01-2016, 12:46
I had my doubts about an H pattern also, but i got the TH8RS from a Friend and itīs a blast to drive with. It makes so much fun and on most of the cars youīre faster with an h pattern than with the auto clutch. Now I canīt imagine playing without it. :D

You should look into the fast throw ricmotech makes for it. Will improve your shifting speed.

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 13:21
Even though us old coots:rolleyes: might take the more hands on approach and tune by feel its still really helpful to know why it works. Spent a couple hours the other night ready up on the pacejka magic formula. Actually finding out what most call bump feel is actually weight on the tire is pretty important to understanding how this really works. Not only is that where bump feel comes from it also contributes to the feel of grip heavily without adding wheel weight.

Being able to tune the Road and Bump Feel to My Liking is a huge advantage!!! I get Great info about how the is car behaving from the wheel Feel. i drive in car View only When you get your bump feel matched to the Camra Shake you Really have a Sense of what the Car is Doing... its almost instinct when to push and when to back off... Buttkickers add alot of immersion and give you a sense of Road feel and Grip also.

P1ckN1cker2406
13-01-2016, 13:23
You should look into the fast throw ricmotech makes for it. Will improve your shifting speed.

Yeah i saw i video review from inside sim racing a couple weeks ago on youtube. Might be really worth looking at it.

poirqc
13-01-2016, 13:26
I have been thinking to get the Fanatec H pattern... just Havent Pulled the Trigger on it yet... Maybe i will place order today when i get in.... are they Really Fun to use???

You should! It's that fun.

I only have a flimsy G27 shifter, but i can assure you it's fun as hell! You'll even it fun when you miss shift! I've never drove 6 speed manual cars, so i have it pretty easy on older 5 gear cars. So 5 4 3 comes naturaly. But when it's 6 5 4 3, my brain starts spinning! :D

Having a H shifter is probably the reasons i'm always playing older manual cars!

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 13:30
The Car suspension Tuning is going to be even more time consuming than the FFB!!!

morpwr
13-01-2016, 13:30
Being able to tune the Road and Bump Feel to My Liking is a huge advantage!!! I get Great info about how the is car behaving from the wheel Feel. i drive in car View only When you get your bump feel matched to the Camra Shake you Really have a Sense of what the Car is Doing... its almost instinct when to push and when to back off... Buttkickers add alot of immersion and give you a sense of Road feel and Grip also.

I love my buttkicker. Definitely adds a lot to the game. I used the lfe I think it was called from them and its awesome. It will shake the whole room if you turn it up plus you get a nice back massage after a long day fixing cars.lol

morpwr
13-01-2016, 14:08
The Car suspension Tuning is going to be even more time consuming than the FFB!!!

I'm waiting for the next patch before I start that. I'm still a little rusty after not playing for at least a year or two but its coming back. Now I just have to break old habits from gt because this game punishes you for overdriving the car as it should. Whats your fastest time at the glen with the ruf?

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 16:37
I'm waiting for the next patch before I start that. I'm still a little rusty after not playing for at least a year or two but its coming back. Now I just have to break old habits from gt because this game punishes you for overdriving the car as it should. Whats your fastest time at the glen with the ruf?

All With Ruf Gt3 thats my Favorite car
Watkins Glen Short 1:07.1xx
Watkins Glen GP 1:43.0xx Shyt teasing Me!!! 1 tire Slip away from 1:42.xxx!!! with the stock tune.
Same for Laguna Seca 1:23.015....Just Teasing Me!!!!

I'm Not Going to tune until Next update either... i Dont even know if i ill ever fully tune the suspensions as long as i can Run Good competitive lap times...i will probabley just tweek the Gears per track to Maximize performance... Stock set up are Fast enough to keep up and fit my driving style well.

Im working on Learning Brathurst with the Ruf... Very Hard track to manage the Ruf on... Front end of the Gt3 Ruf likes to Skip and Dance around alot in the Down Hill Chicane section.

poirqc
13-01-2016, 16:47
It's alot easier to tune Brake pressure and bias, camber, toes, swaybars, gear box, tire pressure than suspension! :D


All With Ruf Gt3 thats my Favorite car
Watkins Glen Short 1:07.1xx


I'm at 1:07:7xx. I'm going to get you! :p(don't remember if it's stock)

spacepadrille
13-01-2016, 17:22
Im working on Learning Brathurst with the Ruf... Very Hard track to manage the Ruf on... Front end of the Gt3 Ruf likes to Skip and Dance around alot in the Down Hill Chicane section.

Are you really sure you don't want to tune suspensions before next patch ? ;-)

spacepadrille
13-01-2016, 17:23
I'm at 1:07:7xx. I'm going to get you! :p(don't remember if it's stock)

I'm 1:08:1xx... I'm coming guys, I'm coming ... :cool:

Watkins Glenn short and the Ruf are my favorites to test and tweak my FFB. But since 2-3 days, I'm pretty done with tweaking (not for a long time I guess) and I try to race. Just bought T3PA-Pro and TH8 shifter adds on. It's a blast ! I really enjoy now the game, the brake-pedal is sooooo important to improve hot laps !

morpwr
13-01-2016, 17:36
I'm 1:08:1xx... I'm coming guys, I'm coming ... :cool:

Watkins Glenn short and the Ruf are my favorites to test and tweak my FFB. But since 2-3 days, I'm pretty done with tweaking (not for a long time I guess) and I try to race. Just bought T3PA-Pro and TH8 shifter adds on. It's a blast ! I really enjoy now the game, the brake-pedal is sooooo important to improve hot laps !

I'm about the same as you time wise normally. I did turn a 1.06 something the one night but I honestly couldn't tell you what I did different.lol Didn't even realize I did it until I looked up and went when the hell did I do that? Same here I'm just going to race for a while . Need more practice after being off for few years. I really like those pedals. Especially inverted.

poirqc
13-01-2016, 17:42
STM = Seta Tire Model.

I was working backwards - If isolating and running FyScale at 0.26 results in an output force of 1.0 at a given point in time then by my understanding the raw Fy value passed in at that point was around 4.0.

I tried it. RuF CTR @ Oulton Park, Foster, TT

Like you said, it went to reach 1 in the telemetry hud under "normal circumstances". That means, under high sideway load, when breaking, while yanking the steering wheel.

However, since i wasn't taking the curve to run it, but instead, to try to put the hightest load on the tire, i lost the CTR. While spinning in the gravel, i could clearly see the signal clipping. Granted, at that point, the FFB is useless because i was already doing 360° in the gravel, but still.

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 17:58
Are you really sure you don't want to tune suspensions before next patch ? ;-)

I'm Not Gonna Tune... I'm Studying the way the Car Behaves on certain problematic parts of the Track... Gotta learn all the best lines and Gears to be in on that down hill Section... the Ruf is Tricky you can have the best line but if your in the wrong Gear it will spin you!!! Probably just Needs a Decel adjustment on the Rear end for that track.

poirqc
13-01-2016, 19:00
Im Not Gonna Tune... Im Studying the way the Car Behaves on certain problematic parts of the Track... Gota learn all the best lines and Gears to be in on that down hill Section... the Ruf is Tricky yu cannhave the best line but if your in the wrong Gear it will spin you!!! Probabley just Needs a Decel ajustment on the Rear end for that track.

There's 2 part there where you can fly with the slightest missplacement.

A hard track indeed!

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 19:15
It's alot easier to tune Brake pressure and bias, camber, toes, swaybars, gear box, tire pressure than suspension! :D



I'm at 1:07:7xx. I'm going to get you! :p(don't remember if it's stock)

Bring it!!! This can be interesting... Good FFB should = Better lap Times...

Let the FFB Time Trials Begin!!! Watkins glen Short, DTM Mercedes and GT3 Ruf tuned or untuned... time must be Validated with a Pic... Join in!!! Lets have some fun while Tweeking and Testing the FFB.

maybe this will inspire me to make a few suspension Tweeks.:eagerness:

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 19:19
Hmmm... Right Now I'm on XB1 and I'm trying to feel the difference between the V2 wheel set at Auto FFB VS my standard 75% on the wheel FFB....Any 1 have any theory's or know how the auto setting works with the V2 and XB1???

Haiden
13-01-2016, 20:00
Hmmm... Right Now I'm on XB1 and I'm trying to feel the difference between the V2 wheel set at Auto FFB VS my standard 75% on the wheel FFB....Any 1 have any theory's or know how the auto setting works with the V2 and XB1???

I think the game has to be created to use it. F1 does, and I believe FM6 does, too. PCars doesn't, so Auto might be the same as 100. I'm curious as to whether or not PCars 2 will make use of that. If they do, then we might lose the ability to attenuate that the wheel level. If my wheel isn't set to Sen="Auto" and Force=100 (which is what it needs to be set at to take advantage of the Auto feature) you have to set the wheel FF extremely low. Otherwise, it is too heavy to drive.

poirqc
13-01-2016, 20:13
Bring it!!! This can be interesting... Good FFB should = Better lap Times...

Let the FFB Time Trials Begin!!! Watkins glen Short, DTM Mercedes and GT3 Ruf tuned or untuned... time must be Validated with a Pic... Join in!!! Lets have some fun while Tweeking and Testing the FFB.

maybe this will inspire me to make a few suspension Tweeks.:eagerness:

I guess this would count as a pic (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=2273942801&vehicle=2017392050)?

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 21:04
LOL

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 21:06
I think the game has to be created to use it. F1 does, and I believe FM6 does, too. PCars doesn't, so Auto might be the same as 100. I'm curious as to whether or not PCars 2 will make use of that. If they do, then we might lose the ability to attenuate that the wheel level. If my wheel isn't set to Sen="Auto" and Force=100 (which is what it needs to be set at to take advantage of the Auto feature) you have to set the wheel FF extremely low. Otherwise, it is too heavy to drive.


Im on XB1 right now and XB1 Pcars supports the Auto Feature... Feels nice i gather that it just regulates the FFB power Level... it doesn't change or tune the FFB

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 21:15
I had my doubts about an H pattern also, but i got the TH8RS from a Friend and itīs a blast to drive with. It makes so much fun and on most of the cars youīre faster with an h pattern than with the auto clutch. Now I canīt imagine playing without it. :D


You should! It's that fun.

I only have a flimsy G27 shifter, but i can assure you it's fun as hell! You'll even it fun when you miss shift! I've never drove 6 speed manual cars, so i have it pretty easy on older 5 gear cars. So 5 4 3 comes naturaly. But when it's 6 5 4 3, my brain starts spinning! :D

Having a H shifter is probably the reasons i'm always playing older manual cars!

Ok i Pulled the trigger and ordered the Fanatec H pattern/Sequential shifter ... Just my Luck outta stock until the end of the month...But it should be here in time for my vacation in Feb:yes:

poirqc
13-01-2016, 21:32
I got to confess low 1:07 at Watkin Glen is fast! It's been a while since i drove there, in the RuF GT3 I can't move from high 1:07 !

Bow GrimeyDog!

As for the shifter, grats! I'm pretty sure you won't regret it. They key thing is to mount it in a naturel position, somewhere similar to a car. It works wonder.

P1ckN1cker2406
13-01-2016, 22:14
Ok i Pulled the trigger and ordered the Fanatec H pattern/Sequential shifter ... Just my Luck outta stock until the end of the month...But it should be here in time for my vacation in Feb:yes:

Congrats, Iīm sure you will love it. Once you are used to it itīs a blast to drive.

skoader
13-01-2016, 22:25
Even though us old coots:rolleyes: might take the more hands on approach and tune by feel its still really helpful to know why it works. Spent a couple hours the other night ready up on the pacejka magic formula. Actually finding out what most call bump feel is actually weight on the tire is pretty important to understanding how this really works. Not only is that where bump feel comes from it also contributes to the feel of grip heavily without adding wheel weight.

Yes! That's exactly what all the math and testing is all about. When I set up the FFB for a new car/track I do it based on feel. All the math does is inform my understanding of what the sliders are doing.

morpwr
13-01-2016, 22:28
I got to confess low 1:07 at Watkin Glen is fast! It's been a while since i drove there, in the RuF GT3 I can't move from high 1:07 !

Bow GrimeyDog!

As for the shifter, grats! I'm pretty sure you won't regret it. They key thing is to mount it in a naturel position, somewhere similar to a car. It works wonder.

Yeah I wish I knew what I did when I ran a 1.06 something lol. But nice lap Grimey. Ill get there. Time for some friendly competition.

morpwr
13-01-2016, 22:31
Grimey,
Not to sound stupid but how do I post a link from the ps on here. I tried reading about the share feature and it wasn't real clear on what I had to do.

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 22:41
PickNicker2406 beat my DTM Merc Time!!! dude is fast!!! but ya know the Dog had to stike back!!! I Might have to end up tuning cause Im Scremin Like captain Kirk dammit Scotty i Need more power!!!I i can get a hair more outta it stock 1:03.xxx other than that the tuning has to begin.

G LB #7 1:04.202
P LB #8 1:04.266

The Smaller the time gap the Harder it seems to Beat!!!

Epic Replay!!! check the replay video!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VgIDC7Up8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VgIDC7Up8A)



New Time Still chippin away at that 1:03.xxx :yes:

XB1 TT Watkins short Puts me at #6 for now.
New Time 1:03.993:yes:






(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VgIDC7Up8A)

GrimeyDog
13-01-2016, 22:51
Grimey,
Not to sound stupid but how do I post a link from the ps on here. I tried reading about the share feature and it wasn't real clear on what I had to do.


Never a stupid question in here... Nope i didn't know how and some one on this forum explained it to me... now i get to pay it forward and you will do the same one day... Cheers.

you have to use share Play to edit if you want, then save video to gallery, then it will give you the option to upload video to you tube, once its uploaded to my you tube o copy and paste the link in here... you can do it from phone or PC.

Haiden
13-01-2016, 23:20
Im on XB1 right now and XB1 Pcars supports the Auto Feature... Feels nice i gather that it just regulates the FFB power Level... it doesn't change or tune the FFB

Huh. I don't really play on Xb1 anymore. I'll have to double check the PS. I don't recall even being able to set FF to Auto on PS. I know you can set Sensitivity and a few others, but I'm not sure about FF. I feel like 100 is the limit on PS.

morpwr
14-01-2016, 00:00
Never a stupid question in here... Nope i didn't know how and some one on this forum explained it to me... now i get to pay it forward and you will do the same one day... Cheers.

you have to use share Play to edit if you want, then save video to gallery, then it will give you the option to upload video to you tube, once its uploaded to my you tube o copy and paste the link in here... you can do it from phone or PC.

Thanks .Back to getting my lap times down

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 01:17
I think this is the Max i Can Get outta this Car with a stock Tune...With a Little Tuning ya Never know where i might end up on the TT....Hmmmm:rolleyes:

DTM Mercedes
XB1 TT Watkins short Puts me at #6 for now.
New Time 1:03.993:yes:


The closest i can get to a perfect lap with a stock tune!!! Racing vs My Ghost lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzllHYnbylM

morpwr
14-01-2016, 01:29
I think this is the Max i Can Get outta this Car with a stock Tune...With a Little Tuning ya Never know where i might end up on the TT....Hmmmm:rolleyes:

DTM Mercedes
XB1 TT Watkins short Puts me at #6 for now.
New Time 1:03.993:yes:


The closest i can get to a perfect lap with a stock tune!!! Racing vs My Ghost lap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzllHYnbylM


Nice lap.You getting any snow? I'm in buffalo so yes I am lol

poirqc
14-01-2016, 01:45
Give me some of that snow, we don't have much around here! I'm behind in my ski season! :D

morpwr
14-01-2016, 01:57
Give me some of that snow, we don't have much around here! I'm behind in my ski season! :D

We have plenty here. Well that depends on exactly where you are though. We get weird snow bands here.

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 02:14
No Snow... Im in Long Island NY... about 40miles or 50min from NYC
No Snow No Snow No Snow i work for Transite... that makes my Day Miserable!!!

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 02:23
All the Tweeking Paid off!!! I Can Feel everything I Need to Feel To Know Exactly what the Car is Doing...When to Push When To Back Off...I dont even know if i want to Tweek the Suspensions... I think i can Make up the Time Gap on Leader board Times with + or - Down Force and Tweeking the Gears Per Car Per Track.... But the Times i Get are Not Bad for Totaly Stock Car Set up and No Assist... Its all about the FFB feel.

The only Reason I Can Push the Cars Really Hard with a Stock Tune is Because i Have soo Much info from the FFB... Its Tweeked Exactly to My FFB taste...and if i know the Track well incan push even Harder!!!

My Tweek is Simple and Easy to customise to any FFB Style or Taste... Once you Find the Wheels in Game Master FFB Level... Just Lower the Masters until the FFB Effects Strength is Right For you, Readjust the Fx, Fy for what you want to Feel Most, Readjust the in Game Master FFB again for Final at the Wheel power Level and Enjoy PCars.


I just Have to Master the Lines for Every Track Now.... Im Working on it!!! Patch 6.0 i was even Faster!!! That Tire Model Gave More info about the Car and Tires Seemed to have More Grip.

Haiden
14-01-2016, 03:52
Im on XB1 right now and XB1 Pcars supports the Auto Feature... Feels nice i gather that it just regulates the FFB power Level... it doesn't change or tune the FFB

Check with the devs about PCars support. The Auto feature is an Xb1 setting. You can select whenever the base is in Xb1 mode, even when the game isn't connected to a console. Whether or not it works, depends on the game support. If it's working you can tell, because there is a definite change in FFB strength when it's in Auto mode. You can feel it when you change from Auto to 100. In FM6 the wheel gets heavier when you switch from Auto to 100. Same happens in F1, except I tried that on PS4, where Auto is basically FF=100, because there is no Auto setting on PS4. In PCars, my FF is set to 85. That's why I have to switch to the profile 2 before loading F1. Otherwise, the wheel is too heavy. I felt a little change on Xb1 in PCars when I went from Auto to 100, but nothing like FM6 or F1. The devs should be able to say whether it supports it or not.

Bavarian Turbo
14-01-2016, 07:50
All the Tweeking Paid off!!! I Can Feel everything I Need to Feel To Know Exactly what the Car is Doing...When to Push When To Back Off...I dont even know if i want to Tweek the Suspensions... I think i can Make up the Time Gap on Leader board Times with + or - Down Force and Tweeking the Gears Per Car Per Track.... But the Times i Get are Not Bad for Totaly Stock Car Set up and No Assist... Its all about the FFB feel.

The only Reason I Can Push the Cars Really Hard with a Stock Tune is Because i Have soo Much info from the FFB... Its Tweeked Exactly to My FFB taste...and if i know the Track well incan push even Harder!!!

My Tweek is Simple and Easy to customise to any FFB Style or Taste... Once you Find the Wheels in Game Master FFB Level... Just Lower the Masters until the FFB Effects Strength is Right For you, Readjust the Fx, Fy for what you want to Feel Most, Readjust the in Game Master FFB again for Final at the Wheel power Level and Enjoy PCars.


I just Have to Master the Lines for Every Track Now.... Im Working on it!!! Patch 6.0 i was even Faster!!! That Tire Model Gave More info about the Car and Tires Seemed to have More Grip.

Hi GrimeyDog,

what values you are using now exactly wit the Fanatec V2 on the Xbox One with the DTM Mercedes?
the same values as in your current PDF?

FFB on the Fanatec Base 75? or Aut?

I would like test your values 1:1

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 10:50
Hi GrimeyDog,

what values you are using now exactly wit the Fanatec V2 on the Xbox One with the DTM Mercedes?
the same values as in your current PDF?

FFB on the Fanatec Base 75? or Aut?

I would like test your values 1:1

I am using the same Values in My PDF
XB1 Game Master FFB 25 , V2 wheel FFB 75, FOR 100, Wheel Sen/DOR Aut.. all other wheel settings are Stock No Spr, DPR, DRI settings have been Changed... I use V3 Pedals with the BrF setting 100.... But even with My V1 Pedals i keep the Pedal Sensitivity set at 10/Max.

Only Difference between the PS4 and XB1 with V2 wheel and My Tweek is Game Master FFB PS4 35 and Game Master FFB XB1 25
i use the same Wheel Settings both Versions.

Now i Relly Need a High End Gaming PC so i can Compare and Tweek for PC also....any 1 Have Good PC Specs??? I Have some but Still in the Process of figuring it out as i try to gather the $$$ to get 1... Maybe for the spring when im done with the Heat Bills... Uuuugh!!!
Think im Gonna open a Grimey Dog PC Tweeker Fund...;)

I was Testing out the Auto FFB on XB1 with that I set Game Master FFB 40 or 45 im Not sure which 1 i like yet... at 45 the wheel can Feel Heavy for Long Races or Quick Turns.

XB1 PCars with the V2 Auto setting the FFB felt as if the FFB Strength would Vary using the Auto FFB setting ...im Not sure about this yet... i have only just begun to Test the Aut feature on XB1 and V2 wheel... More testing Required... using V2 Auto 40 felt Good to Me but just testing to see which 1 is best for me 40 or 45 i need more testing... Maybe some where on the Middle 43??? Dunno yet.

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 11:31
Im Going to try and Push the Stock Gt3 Ruf to a 1:06.xxx on PS4 when i get off work... I will Post the Video Results and Show settings like i always do:D

Only Bad thing about XB1 is i cant just upload a Video from XB1 like i can on PS4.
I had to Shoot the XB1 videos with my phone as i was watching the Replay on the TV... LOL.

Bavarian Turbo
14-01-2016, 11:53
Im Going to try and Push the Stock Gt3 Ruf to a 1:06.xxx on PS4 when i get off work... I will Post the Video Results and Show settings like i always do:D

Only Bad thing about XB1 is i cant just upload a Video from XB1 like i can on PS4.
I had to Shoot the XB1 videos with my phone as i was watching the Replay on the TV... LOL.

with the GameDVR App you can save Videos up to 5 minutes and with the Upload Studio App you can make your own video of several clips, and then start the Youtube app on the Xbox, there you can then upload the video direct to youtube.

which is on the xbox unfortunately everything was a bit more complicated and complicated, but it works

morpwr
14-01-2016, 12:21
Im Going to try and Push the Stock Gt3 Ruf to a 1:06.xxx on PS4 when i get off work... I will Post the Video Results and Show settings like i always do:D

Only Bad thing about XB1 is i cant just upload a Video from XB1 like i can on PS4.
I had to Shoot the XB1 videos with my phone as i was watching the Replay on the TV... LOL.

I know its doable. Now if I can just figure out what I did.lol

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 13:44
I know its doable. Now if I can just figure out what I did.lol

it can be Done... I Ran a 1:07.01x... I was on pace for a1:06.xxx but i Clipped the Curb Lost Tracktion in the Last Corner and that slowed Me down just enough time to Miss it... Its just like Laguna Seca when i was pushing for the 1:23.xxx with stock tune... once i get it 1 time!!! i will be able to break the barrier at will... Its probabley that im Driving too Hard to get there that i make small Mistakes that cause Me to Lose just enough time to Miss the Mark... Laguna im downnto a 1:23.017 with Stock Set up!!! i think stock is good for a 1:22.8xx i see where i lose time... Its either i on a Fast lap and slow down too Much Trying Not to blow it or i over drive and lose it.... My last Video Racing My Ghost is a Great Example and it can Clearly be seen that i slowed down in the Last L/ R Turn before the final Straight... I had a Bigger Gap on My Ghost and Chose to Just Break the 1:03.9xx Mark Rather than to push hard and Risk Losing it all... you can see Coming down that last Straight i had just enough Lead on my Ghost to beat it....That replay ghost was a 1:04.017 so all i Needed was a Hair to beat it... So i played it safe as i was on Pace to hit my target time of 1:03.9xx. i didn't care about getting a Faster time just Breaking the 1:03.xxx mark is what i was Focused on

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 13:48
with the GameDVR App you can save Videos up to 5 minutes and with the Upload Studio App you can make your own video of several clips, and then start the Youtube app on the Xbox, there you can then upload the video direct to youtube.

which is on the xbox unfortunately everything was a bit more complicated and complicated, but it works

I will Try this... I Mostly play PCars on PS4... How do i Go about Having the XB1 Record the Replay??? I know the PS4 is always Recording and you just have to push a button to tell it to save and it has the last 10 or 15 min of activity... Then you can just go edit when ever your ready... does the XB1 work same o similar???

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 14:16
You nailed it perfectly: Linear multipliers that don't feel linear!

The entire sim is an elaborated spring-mass-damper-system… And thankfully it is!

That's the reason we all hang around here, play pCArs instead of other sims, engage and have fun sharing our findings and believes. And i bet we - who are discussing this totally crazy stuff - can burn some pretty decent hot laps into the tarmac. In real life and in a sim.

Racing needs science and engineers to make the drivers shine and succeed. In real life as in sims. And GrimeyDog is a driver! (He does LagunaSeca in the Ruf 8 GT3 in 1.23.xxx, i do it in 1.27.xxx… no comment on that ;-) But my poor driving doesn't hold me back to have fun with pCars' intriguing gameplay, and the freedom to tweak! - and my engineering nerdy-ness.

Here my fresh statement: Beside RAG and Softclippers, TireForce Fxyzm, spindle master scale, steering gain, and FFB master are as linear as they can be.

…that doesn't mean that the chain of multipliers feels linear. …mass damper, your human non-linear physiology, and so on… Well, i won't stress it no more ;-)

Though, the question was: why to bother with the math of the game anyway? …i let you know when i do Laguna Seca in less that 1.23 :-)

And hey… wouldn't it be fun to find out, that the reason why you guys can provide great FFB settings thanks to an "invisible computation headroom" that you use - without knowing it :-) :-) :-)

However, i still believe it'd be an achievement if all the learnings and track-proven facts about FFB could be condensed to a reference guide that is valid and comprehensive.

Because pCars has an enormous freedom of personal adjustments, and i hope that SMS doesn't change it with pCars 2. So it's good if pCars finds a larger community beyond our small special interest group… pCars is one of the seldom really great indie-games that you wonder how that could happen at such a high level, while competing against money-loaded a bit boring mainstream games like e.g. Forza. I like to support pCars because of that. And making it more accessible to newcomers is cool. And let's be realistic: There are good reason, why the devs keep quit about our questions. You don't wanna go down the rabbit whole…

Have a nice drive!

Well Said... Im Catching up on all the Reading...Took a 2 day Focus to Really Push the Tweek on XB1 with Good Results... I've played more PCars on XB1 in 2 days than i have in Months... LOL... I have 500+ Hours of play on PS4 PCars My XB1 PCars time was only 8hrs until 2 days ago... I think it 18hrs Now... LOL.

Yes Mathematicians Rule!!! Its a Pure Science and i Love it...its the only Pure Language because it Never Lies 2+2 always =4
When i Start on the Car Suspensions i will go back to Math and See how it works out... Hmmmm Going to be Very interesting.

Too all the Mathematicians Its Great Reading your post it is Great Food for thought... As Skoader pointed it out we are all saying the same things just using different Methods of Communicting them.. that was a Brilliant point!!! Together im Sure we will Reach the Final FFB Solution.

Thank you to all of you for your Contributions to the thread and the Quest for the Final FFB solution.... You Guys are the Best!!! Grimey_Dog

delahosh
14-01-2016, 16:27
I guess this would count as a pic (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=2273942801&vehicle=2017392050)?

THX!

morpwr
14-01-2016, 17:03
THX!

isn't it supposed to be the ruf gt3 car not the ctr?

poirqc
14-01-2016, 17:05
isn't it supposed to be the ruf gt3 car not the ctr?

Well, it could be any car really :)

morpwr
14-01-2016, 17:29
it can be Done... I Ran a 1:07.01x... I was on pace for a1:06.xxx but i Clipped the Curb Lost Tracktion in the Last Corner and that slowed Me down just enough time to Miss it... Its just like Laguna Seca when i was pushing for the 1:23.xxx with stock tune... once i get it 1 time!!! i will be able to break the barrier at will... Its probabley that im Driving too Hard to get there that i make small Mistakes that cause Me to Lose just enough time to Miss the Mark... Laguna im downnto a 1:23.017 with Stock Set up!!! i think stock is good for a 1:22.8xx i see where i lose time... Its either i on a Fast lap and slow down too Much Trying Not to blow it or i over drive and lose it.... My last Video Racing My Ghost is a Great Example and it can Clearly be seen that i slowed down in the Last L/ R Turn before the final Straight... I had a Bigger Gap on My Ghost and Chose to Just Break the 1:03.9xx Mark Rather than to push hard and Risk Losing it all... you can see Coming down that last Straight i had just enough Lead on my Ghost to beat it....That replay ghost was a 1:04.017 so all i Needed was a Hair to beat it... So i played it safe as i was on Pace to hit my target time of 1:03.9xx. i didn't care about getting a Faster time just Breaking the 1:03.xxx mark is what i was Focused on

Same here once I figure it out I'm usually pretty consistent within a tenth or two on lap times. I think I'm still pushing too hard and just need to slow down a little to be smoother.

morpwr
14-01-2016, 17:30
Well, it could be any car really :)

Well then I want the fast one.lol

spacepadrille
14-01-2016, 17:31
Thank you to all of you for your Contributions to the thread and the Quest for the Final FFB solution.... You Guys are the Best!!! Grimey_Dog

Grimey, I want to test again your settings. I'm actually running morpwr's one, It is really good but not strong enought for my taste, and trying to make it "stiffer" is a disastre (non linear things always). Last time I tried your settings, the feeling was good, but some things where lacking. Maybe because it was not set for T300 ? Could you please tell me (us) what to change on your CSW2 setting for PS4 & T300. Did you make a setup for PS4&T300 ? If yes, can you post it again please ? This thread is so huge, I cannot find what I'm looking for ;-) Thanks a lot and congratulations for your hot laps ! Very impressive.

morpwr
14-01-2016, 18:05
Grimey, I want to test again your settings. I'm actually running morpwr's one, It is really good but not strong enought for my taste, and trying to make it "stiffer" is a disastre (non linear things always). Last time I tried your settings, the feeling was good, but some things where lacking. Maybe because it was not set for T300 ? Could you please tell me (us) what to change on your CSW2 setting for PS4 & T300. Did you make a setup for PS4&T300 ? If yes, can you post it again please ? This thread is so huge, I cannot find what I'm looking for ;-) Thanks a lot and congratulations for your hot laps ! Very impressive.

Did you try turning up the ffb master a couple to keep the balance but make everything stronger? I tried playing with tf at 100 the other night and just couldn't get it to feel right.

Fight-Test
14-01-2016, 18:35
Grimey, I want to test again your settings. I'm actually running morpwr's one, It is really good but not strong enought for my taste, and trying to make it "stiffer" is a disastre (non linear things always). Last time I tried your settings, the feeling was good, but some things where lacking. Maybe because it was not set for T300 ? Could you please tell me (us) what to change on your CSW2 setting for PS4 & T300. Did you make a setup for PS4&T300 ? If yes, can you post it again please ? This thread is so huge, I cannot find what I'm looking for ;-) Thanks a lot and congratulations for your hot laps ! Very impressive.

Turn ur tire force to 100. It's all I had to do. I've been using them for over a week and they dropped my times.

I felt the weakness in these but also the same issue that I find in everyone else's and that is the rumble motor always gives a overpowering rumble compared to the wheel forces. I used to try and turn the rumble down as it sends confusing signals and the road can feel more like a static mess and effects concentration. I now just turn tire force to balance it and 100 work good for his.

No set I have used have been as fast as haidens t300 till these. Perfect information being sent from wheel and I like classic with lmps and 66% with gt3 or sports cars

spacepadrille
14-01-2016, 18:41
Hi morpwr ! Yes I did. But raising FFB modify the balance of the setting, and when it's strong enough it's not as subtle as before, I loose understeer feeling, soft brakes, it's just stronger but not as informative than when it's not strong enough. I'm trying since one week, with all the sliders, one by one. Your setup is perfectly well balanced, and trying to make it stiffer damage it. I tried to raise the Fxyzm keeping the proportions (e.g. + 10% each), but it doesn't works well.

spacepadrille
14-01-2016, 18:46
Turn ur tire force to 100. It's all I had to do. I've been using them for over a week and they dropped my times.

I felt the weakness in these but also the same issue that I find in everyone else's and that is the rumble motor always gives a overpowering rumble compared to the wheel forces. I used to try and turn the rumble down as it sends confusing signals and the road can feel more like a static mess and effects concentration. I now just turn tire force to balance it and 100 work good for his.

No set I have used have been as fast as haidens t300 till these. Perfect information being sent from wheel and I like classic with lmps and 66% with gt3 or sports cars

Thanks for the tip, but I think it's one of the first things I tried, and it was feeling not natural (like too much details !). Do you have a link to the Haiden's setup you are talking about ? I tried one, but maybe not this one !

poirqc
14-01-2016, 19:14
Well then I want the fast one.lol

315 Kph for a road car isn't too shabby if you ask me ;)

morpwr
14-01-2016, 19:17
Ive raised the tf a little too I think I'm at 85 now. That's all your really looking for is more wheel weight?

spacepadrille
14-01-2016, 19:30
I like when what you feel in your hands matches with the sound of the game, especially the tyre's work on the road. I also like to feel more strength in the wheel when you turn at high speed, instead of the centering force, witch should be in that case weaker than the G-Force resistance. When I raise TF and FFB and/or SG and/or spindle master scale, I loose this. Sorry if it's not clear, english is not my first language. I gonna try again with TF 85 right now. Thanks for the discussion ;-)

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 20:31
Grimey, I want to test again your settings. I'm actually running morpwr's one, It is really good but not strong enought for my taste, and trying to make it "stiffer" is a disastre (non linear things always). Last time I tried your settings, the feeling was good, but some things where lacking. Maybe because it was not set for T300 ? Could you please tell me (us) what to change on your CSW2 setting for PS4 & T300. Did you make a setup for PS4&T300 ? If yes, can you post it again please ? This thread is so huge, I cannot find what I'm looking for ;-) Thanks a lot and congratulations for your hot laps ! Very impressive.

The Settings are in the PDF on the First Page... you will just Need to find the in Game Master FFB level for your wheel... you can do that by Entering the PDF Global and in Car FFB settings in the Game Exactly as is...set the Game Master FFB to 50 to start... Test you Favorite car on watkins glen short.. I Recommend the GT3 Ruf... + or - the Game Master FFB until you have the at the Wheel FFB power Level you feel Good at.... If you Need to you can Adjust the in Car FFB settings to + or - the FFB effects you want to feel Most... then Readjust your Game Master FFB + or - if you Need to.

Keep in Mind that if you dont like the Feel of SoP you can just set the SoP Master Scale to 0.00 to turn it Off..... Its Very easy to adjust the Tweek to your Specific FFB taste.... If you Need help or Feels like somethings Missing post and i or some one can tell you what to adjust to bring out the Missing Feel.... The Most important part is the Global Settings.... Because the T300 is New Brushless Motor Tec i don't think you need any Dead Zone Removal, Smoothing or Damping.... Once you have your settings balanced you will see you don't need those settings with your wheel.

Morpwr and i use very similar settings

Bavarian Turbo
14-01-2016, 22:01
Grimey Dog, i did a first short test with your values on PS4 and Xbox One.
it felt quite well in the game and i had a lot of fun, but on the Xbox, the FFB is partially a bit too strict to me, here I have to look more appropriate values for FFB in the game and at the base.

Total operates the FFB for me on the PS4 resolved much finer and goes more towards PC, on the Xbox One, while it is also quite good, but there are no clear details with respect to the other platforms

the biggest problems with your values on the Xbox One is for me in some cars and tracks the real hard shocks / impacts on the steering wheel, do neither I or the wheel well. The beatings I not only when I go over curbs, even just like that on the track.

I'll try again tomorrow and then i will give you a Kombo(Car + Track) where it occurs very strongly, maybe you can help me then.

until then, you can always hang times of my Leaderboard time with the Ruf GT3 at Watkins Glen short on the Xbox One (Setup is easily tuned)

GrimeyDog
14-01-2016, 22:44
Grimey Dog, i did a first short test with your values on PS4 and Xbox One.
it felt quite well in the game and i had a lot of fun, but on the Xbox, the FFB is partially a bit too strict to me, here I have to look more appropriate values for FFB in the game and at the base.

Total operates the FFB for me on the PS4 resolved much finer and goes more towards PC, on the Xbox One, while it is also quite good, but there are no clear details with respect to the other platforms

the biggest problems with your values on the Xbox One is for me in some cars and tracks the real hard shocks / impacts on the steering wheel, do neither I or the wheel well. The beatings I not only when I go over curbs, even just like that on the track.

I'll try again tomorrow and then i will give you a Kombo(Car + Track) where it occurs very strongly, maybe you can help me then.

until then, you can always hang times of my Leaderboard time with the Ruf GT3 at Watkins Glen short on the Xbox One (Setup is easily tuned)



There are 3 options that can solve the harsh FFB Bump problem.

1) Turn down the game Master FFB and test, the Xb1 Game master FFB is Much stronger than the PS4 due to MS New FFB protocol (Note 25 Master FFB for XB1 i have to look if i set that in the PDF...30 was too strong for long races)

2) you can reduce the In car masters, It is Not Mandatory that the in car masters be set to 100.

3) Reduce "FZ Scale" and "SoP Differential Scale" to 80 to start then + or - until the Bump and curb feel is right for you.

any 1 of these can solve the problem... I listed them in the order i think you should try them first.

Edit: I have change the X Box1 Master FFB to 25.... 30 is tooo strong... Sorry guys i thought i had done that a while back:stupid:

SGETI
15-01-2016, 00:12
Do you have a link to the Haiden's setup you are talking about ? I tried one, but maybe not this one !


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Also, this list contains numerous others who have posted their T300 settings. some data missing, such as pedal info, just use default.




No set I have used have been as fast as haidens t300 till these. Perfect information being sent from wheel and I like classic with lmps and 66% with gt3 or sports cars

So if I am reading this correct you are using Grimey FFB setting with J spades spindle and sop?

poirqc
15-01-2016, 00:42
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Also, this list contains numerous others who have posted their T300 settings. some data missing, such as pedal info, just use default.



So if I am reading this correct you are using Grimey FFB setting with J spades spindle and sop?

It's a nice idea to compile users setting in the same document. Dirt has a similar feature where you can share your FFB tunes. Your document can regroup everything in a tight space.

Good work.

morpwr
15-01-2016, 00:45
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Also, this list contains numerous others who have posted their T300 settings. some data missing, such as pedal info, just use default.



So if I am reading this correct you are using Grimey FFB setting with J spades spindle and sop?

No he's using mine right now

morpwr
15-01-2016, 00:49
Hi morpwr ! Yes I did. But raising FFB modify the balance of the setting, and when it's strong enough it's not as subtle as before, I loose understeer feeling, soft brakes, it's just stronger but not as informative than when it's not strong enough. I'm trying since one week, with all the sliders, one by one. Your setup is perfectly well balanced, and trying to make it stiffer damage it. I tried to raise the Fxyzm keeping the proportions (e.g. + 10% each), but it doesn't works well.

Try ffb 76 gain 77 tf85 let me know

GrimeyDog
15-01-2016, 00:54
Great work...you have to edit my linkage stiffness you have it at 10.00 but the value is 1.00 really good work though

morpwr
15-01-2016, 00:58
Great work...you have to edit my linkage stiffness you have it at 10.00 but the value is 1.00 really good work though

I've been trying for the last hour to figure out how you get that last second off at the glen.lol Nice driving though that's a quick lap with a stock car.

GrimeyDog
15-01-2016, 01:06
I've been trying for the last hour to figure out how you get that last second off at the glen.lol Nice driving though that's a quick lap with a stock car.


Thanx... which car the Ruff or the DTM Mercedes?

I'm just a hair off!!! My target time 1:06xxx with a stock tune... Every Lap 1:07.1xx to 1:07.5xx Uuuugh the game is teasing me!!! LOL

morpwr
15-01-2016, 01:30
Thanx... which car the Ruff or the DTM Mercedes?

I'm just a hair off!!! My target time 1:06xxx with a stock tune... Every Lap 1:07.1xx to 1:07.5xx Uuuugh the game is teasing me!!! LOL

The ruff gt3.Pretty sure I know where I'm loosing the time.Its the last and first corners if you don't hit those just right you give up a lot of time. So far I'm not hitting them right.lol

morpwr
15-01-2016, 01:34
The ruff gt3.Pretty sure I know where I'm loosing the time.Its the last and first corners if you don't hit those just right you give up a lot of time. So far I'm not hitting them right.lol

If I could just get a 1.08 flat tonight I'd be happy. 1.07s will come now that I'm not changing stuff all the time.

GrimeyDog
15-01-2016, 02:23
https://youtu.be/DEKM8frML0U


Close But Still Didn't Hit the Target 1:06.xxx with Stock GT3 Ruf.
Gonna Get it but today wasn't the day... I even got it down to a 1:07.080 but something happed when i tried to save the Game Clip... I gotta Clean it up just a Bit More...Going to study the Video to see where I'm losing the time at::confused:

IMO... 1:06.9xx is probabley the best that the Stock Gt3 Ruff is Going to get...for Me the Car will be Maxed out.... Hmmm to Tweek or Not to Tweek it??? Im going to watch when i Race online and see just How Many People can get to a 1:06.xxx in a online Race when Racing that Track... That will be the deciding Factor... I can Keep a 1:07.5xx but below 1:08.xxx pace up Most races with No Problem... Unless i get caught by a Crash Dummy... So even though with stock settings it struggles to get into the 1:06.xxx range it can Keep up a Competitive Race Pace.

GrimeyDog
15-01-2016, 14:45
If I could just get a 1.08 flat tonight I'd be happy. 1.07s will come now that I'm not changing stuff all the time.

you will get it just keep at it.

inthebagbud
15-01-2016, 16:50
Could do with guys like you joining the site http://consoleracing.boards.net/ . My post here http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43557-Console-Racing-Site-makes-its-debut gives an idea of what we are trying to do . Casual to serious, TT to league, by the driver for the driver

Yes this is a shameless plug:D but you owe me as all I have been able to do for last 3 weeks is read about pcars and note how we have moved from tweaking to driving and I am still stuck in this damm hospital. :eek:

morpwr
15-01-2016, 17:46
Could do with guys like you joining the site http://consoleracing.boards.net/ . My post here http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43557-Console-Racing-Site-makes-its-debut gives an idea of what we are trying to do . Casual to serious, TT to league, by the driver for the driver

Yes this is a shameless plug:D but you owe me as all I have been able to do for last 3 weeks is read about pcars and note how we have moved from tweaking to driving and I am still stuck in this damm hospital. :eek:

That sucks. Hope youre back at it soon!

tennenbaum
15-01-2016, 18:53
https://youtu.be/DEKM8frML0U


Close But Still Didn't Hit the Target 1:06.xxx with Stock GT3 Ruf.
Gonna Get it but today wasn't the day... I even got it down to a 1:07.080 but something happed when i tried to save the Game Clip... I gotta Clean it up just a Bit More...Going to study the Video to see where I'm losing the time at::confused:

IMO... 1:06.9xx is probabley the best that the Stock Gt3 Ruff is Going to get...for Me the Car will be Maxed out.... Hmmm to Tweek or Not to Tweek it??? Im going to watch when i Race online and see just How Many People can get to a 1:06.xxx in a online Race when Racing that Track... That will be the deciding Factor... I can Keep a 1:07.5xx but below 1:08.xxx pace up Most races with No Problem... Unless i get caught by a Crash Dummy... So even though with stock settings it struggles to get into the 1:06.xxx range it can Keep up a Competitive Race Pace.

Hi GrimeyDog, I'd be so interested to see your FFB graph telemetry when you go around the track like this. It'd be great, if you see a chance to upload a video occasionally. Thanx!

skoader
15-01-2016, 19:59
With all due respect - the way the two soft clippers ("half input and full output") work together is beyond logic. When i tested it, it didn't behave as described in the ("official"?) pCarsFFBGuide20150416.pdf document. The description ist vague enough anyway, i believe nobody was capable yet to really figure out how soft clipper full force "anticipates" what's fed to soft clipper (half input):

FFB guide: "SoftClipUnity (remark: now "Full Force") sets the expected maximum force that will hit the soft clipper, and rescales such that that force outputs at 1.0 (full force of wheel). This means saturation may be reintroduced if this is set too low, but it is useful to fine tune output, especially when the soft clipper is used more for nonlinear response than for anti-saturation. Setting this to 0.0 turns the unity rescaling off." According to the description it seems soft clipper Full Output sets a signal for the input of the soft clipper half input, then - afterwards - rescales it to 1.0, if necessary.

As much as one modul can't be at two sides in a signal chain at the same time, my tests didn't lead to signal behavior that i could explain logically. Soft Clipper Half Input indeed amplifies lower input values over-proportionally ("compressor") but doesn't funnel them into a 0.5 output corridor. Actually if you set SC Half Input to 0.1, output raises to about 0.9. There a more oddities. Among others, you you may find strange that setting SC Full Output to values >1 leads to reducing signal values. Instead of leveling it up to 1.00. Which is what an audio compressor/limiter would allow. Briefly, i think the use of soft clipper half input and full output is nothing than try and error, and due to its complexity you may not know what you get from it. Of course setting the soft clipper to e.g. 0.3 "tightens" the wheel, making softer forces stronger, but do i want that at the expense of possibly all forces narrowed down to a "corridor" +/- a little around 0,5 and some (which one?) higher, while i can't control the real range of compression.

I'll happily rest my case immediately if news come around about the mysterious ways the clippers work :)

This puzzled me for some time too. At one point I thought the documentation may have been dated.

From the official guide -
( Soft Clipping (Half Input) )
The “half signal” for setting the soft clipper. The value set here is the input signal that will become 0.5 as an output signal.

In my early tests, this just didn't look to be the case. What the documentation failed to make clear (at least to me) is that this only holds true when full output rescaling is set to 0.0.

Here, I've plotted out some of my observations. This is based on data I collected some time ago. Your posting inspired me to bring it all together, fill in a few gaps and finally plot these curves.

225350

225351

225352

poirqc
15-01-2016, 22:17
This puzzled me for some time too. At one point I thought the documentation may have been dated.

From the official guide -
( Soft Clipping (Half Input) )
The “half signal” for setting the soft clipper. The value set here is the input signal that will become 0.5 as an output signal.

In my early tests, this just didn't look to be the case. What the documentation failed to make clear (at least to me) is that this only holds true when full output rescaling is set to 0.0.

Here, I've plotted out some of my observations. This is based on data I collected some time ago. Your posting inspired me to bring it all together, fill in a few gaps and finally plot these curves.

225350

225351

225352

I'll write what the conclusion i put in the baseline thread some time ago. Do you think it explain the graph above?

When SCFO is dialed to "catch" everything:

SCHI < 0,5*(SCFO) = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces
SCHI > 0,5*(SCFO) = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 02:02
Hi GrimeyDog, I'd be so interested to see your FFB graph telemetry when you go around the track like this. It'd be great, if you see a chance to upload a video occasionally. Thanx!

PS4 Pcars Tire Abuse with FFB Graph, Watkins Glen short 1:07.7xx and under 8 laps not 1 red tire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsb_JspjiCc)

I turned the in car Steering wheel On... The Movements of the driver hands on screen pretty much are 1.1 with my RL Wheel movement....All the telemetry you Need... I hope patch 8.0 is better than this because Look at the tire temps No heat or wear issues even after 8 laps of straight abuse...The stock car set up is very tire friendly but still there should be more Heat and wear according to how I'm driving.... Patch 6.0 was much more realistic.

How does the telemetry add up according to your Mathematic calculations??? i can feel every bump and line in the Graph!!! pay attn to the Graph when i cross the paint at the Start finish line... You will see the line pulse as i cross it... i can feel That!!! LOL.

What still puzzles me is what is the end goal of the mathematics??? we have a basic knowledge of how the FFB system works...what to tweek, basic # ranges for the set ups depending on your method of tweeking...What is the end result other than understanding.

also can some one explain in their own words what Linear FFB Feel is to them...What does is it supposed to feel like in your opinion....in my head i see it as progressively stronger and stronger the more you turn the wheel ,with No real bump feel kinda like the old wheels when FFB was just a spring in the wheel center with some rumble effects thrown in.

I'm all for the math I'm curious to where its leading to???

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 02:31
I liked your video grim but this is better. https://youtu.be/nGPZs8OZaaw

Do you adjust your brake balance? it looks like you have more at the rear car turns pretty fast. the ruf im talking about

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 03:03
I liked your video grim but this is better. https://youtu.be/nGPZs8OZaaw

Do you adjust your brake balance? it looks like you have more at the rear car turns pretty fast. the ruf im talking about

I don't change anything... i dont even adjust the Tire pressure,,,thats why i always flash through the settings to show everything is stock.

LOL that Video funny!

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 03:35
Yes but you can change the brakes when on track im just saying the car turns real good the settings on the page don't change if you adjust when driving. Lol I been racing long enough to know it looks like it has more rear brake lol not being a dick by the way

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 03:46
Yes but you can change the brakes when on track im just saying the car turns real good the settings on the page don't change if you adjust when driving. Lol I been racing long enough to know it looks like it has more rear brake lol not being a dick by the way
Th

Nope all just the way you see it.. nothings been changed i use No assist...Never Played a Sim with a wheel that the Assist feel natural... just my driving style been driving the cars stock since forza, Gt5 & 6..... Tell to what you make a room with default set ups lock it and the results will still be the same.
you Just gotta learn to Drive the ruf when you get it its point and shoot.

Edit: Did i mention good FFB Equals consistent Lap times??? LOL its all in the FFB Feel...we use different FFB so yeah your lines are going to be different... Its all about Feel...and i use SoP i like to feel the rear of the car...

Edit: im sooo Simple if you look at the Video my Brakes are cold... i didn't even close the Radiators or Brakes a bit:p... i just now noticed my brakes are blue...LOL

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 05:56
1 08 519 stock ruf ruf about 1 hour all together tonight. and only five hours on new wheel she is tricky I think I need to get use to the brake on the t500 pedals. And I never really do like how the stock setups come with 90 percent brake pressure I like it at 80 to 85

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 06:50
New Wheel Nice!!! What did you get? IMO you should spend as much time driving all the cars stock as possible...you have to learn all the cars strong points and weak points first before you tune. i have also been using My same FFB for Months Just refining the feel making it smoother but not changing its characteristics so i can feel the road in a way that provides me the best tactile road feel...i dont know if your using assist or Not but i recommend turning them off... the assist kill the very forces your trying to feel EX: how would you know when the car is at the edge of it grip limits if TCS or Stability is turned on??? They both cut engine power to try to stop you from spinning out... Every time those assist turn on i can pull .250 on you... by the end of the race that's a huge lead. the worst assist of them all is the driving line... it makes you lazy and not focus to learn the best track lines to take... even if its just subconscious you slow down every time you see the line turn yellow... i used the line for a long time when i cut it off 3 weeks and i was much faster the racing line slows you down.

I'm test driving the Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM on Watkins Glen short and I'm down to a 1:02.548 that's only 2.5 sec off the #1 time and yup I'm stock tune... This time would have put me at 19 on the TT...i would be the Fastest Mercedes Time on TT!!!

Once you get your FFB right you can drive any car any track because you Will know what the car is doing because the FFB will be different per car but very familiar at the same time.... i still use same FFB in every car.

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 09:30
Thanks skoader for the graphs!! Wow! Let me digest it and i do some tests. I come back to you asap.

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 11:03
This puzzled me for some time too. At one point I thought the documentation may have been dated.

From the official guide -
( Soft Clipping (Half Input) )
The “half signal” for setting the soft clipper. The value set here is the input signal that will become 0.5 as an output signal.

In my early tests, this just didn't look to be the case. What the documentation failed to make clear (at least to me) is that this only holds true when full output rescaling is set to 0.0.

Here, I've plotted out some of my observations. This is based on data I collected some time ago. Your posting inspired me to bring it all together, fill in a few gaps and finally plot these curves.

225350

225351

225352

HOW COOL IS THAT! All of a sudden pieces are falling into place!!

That matches with my practical tests. Now seeing the graphs they explain what i felt but what i couldn't explain to myself. All the effects that seemed so very paradox before make sense now: e.g. If you set Half Input to 0.1 it tightens your wheel extremely and pushes everything quickly up to saturation (even while all the "common" description before made you think everything will be leveled than into a corridor among 0.5.). Now it's getting clear: With the value of Half Input you "bow" the steepness of the "log" curve "around" that value like around an geometric center point. It's absolutely impossible to explain that with words without graphs! Did you "measure" the graphs somehow, or are they the result of your hypotheses?

Even better, now the Full Input "mechanic" seems to makes sense. At least for values >1. The value "0" seems "difficult" to me at the moment, but i guess I'll understand it a bit later.

Anyway, in that new light, i allow myself to point out that the "older" descriptions of how SCHI and SCFO are supposed to work were rather confusing than helping.

Thanks skoader to solve this big riddle (at least for me)!

I also feel it must sink a bit before i oversee the impact your finding has to a lot more questions that i had. First thing that crossed my mind:

Considering that your research and graphs are true - which i believe very much - that would be the proof, that the "headroom >1" is really existing.

You remember i wondered about the settings of the guys who have high in-car spindle master scales in combination with relatively high tire forces Fxyzm and TF multiplier. I didn't understand why theses settings don't cause necessarily immediate and strong clippings. Well, if there actually exists a "hidden" computation headroom for forces higher than 1.00 in the part of the signal chain before reaching RAG and Softclipper (after which the dynamic range is normalized to 0.00 - 1.00), than this would explain why such high tire force settings and high spindle master scales can work - as long you either use RAG and/or SCFO to tame them into the 0.00 - 1.00 corridor. And your SC graphs indicate and seem to prove that this "headroom >1" exists! Which has pretty much of an practical impact to FFB settings in general, in my eyes.

Another thing that is getting obvious to me, if you want to feel subtle details of the road it makes totally sense to use SCHI and SCFO. The point is - without knowing how the setting of SCFO actually works - it was impossible to achieve this useful "compressor" effect without messing up your over all setting. Because SCHI and SCFO interact in such an "in-comprehensive" way that only your graphs explain so well, what's really happening when you fumble around with SC.

It also shows why SC in combination with the RAC and RAB and especially RAG can effect the entire FFB signal in a way that you can't rationalize (backward engineer) it- if you don't know what the SCHI and SCFO values do to the signal.

Great achievement!

:D:D:D

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 11:46
PS4 Pcars Tire Abuse with FFB Graph, Watkins Glen short 1:07.7xx and under 8 laps not 1 red tire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsb_JspjiCc)

I turned the in car Steering wheel On... The Movements of the driver hands on screen pretty much are 1.1 with my RL Wheel movement....All the telemetry you Need... I hope patch 8.0 is better than this because Look at the tire temps No heat or wear issues even after 8 laps of straight abuse...The stock car set up is very tire friendly but still there should be more Heat and wear according to how I'm driving.... Patch 6.0 was much more realistic.

How does the telemetry add up according to your Mathematic calculations??? i can feel every bump and line in the Graph!!! pay attn to the Graph when i cross the paint at the Start finish line... You will see the line pulse as i cross it... i can feel That!!! LOL.

What still puzzles me is what is the end goal of the mathematics??? we have a basic knowledge of how the FFB system works...what to tweek, basic # ranges for the set ups depending on your method of tweeking...What is the end result other than understanding.

also can some one explain in their own words what Linear FFB Feel is to them...What does is it supposed to feel like in your opinion....in my head i see it as progressively stronger and stronger the more you turn the wheel ,with No real bump feel kinda like the old wheels when FFB was just a spring in the wheel center with some rumble effects thrown in.

I'm all for the math I'm curious to where its leading to???


Aah! Great. Thanks Grimey!

I hope with the all the help i can dig a bit deeper - without getting more confused.

But as you can see with my previous post, i think skoader brought bright daylight to the dark! May be only to my darkness :) But i strongly believe his explanation of SC functionality is a great step forward.

And may be Roger Prynne has something more about RAG and SC as well: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1212540#post1212540.

And i miss bManics voice. He knows a lot about the FFB, and he represents a totally different approach of how to set the Tire Forces and Globals.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?25046-bManic-s-latest-FFB-experiments-possibly-working-universally-for-all-wheels&p=910657&viewfull=1#post910657

And of of course poirqc insights. If i remember right he never published concrete settings, saying he just wants to hint how things work, welcoming everybody to find his own settings. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1049991&viewfull=1#post1049991

Basically i'm interested to find out:

1. What is RAG exactly doing.

2. How do the two non-linear modules "RAG/RAB/RAC" and "SCHI/SCFO" interact with each other. (I think that got much clearer now, thanks to skoader).

3. Can we set relatively high multiplication value of ((TF x Fxyzm x spindle master scale) + ((SOPLat+SOPDiff) x SOP scale master)) = resulting signal that enters RAG/RAB/RAC module, without risking clipping that we can't see in the HUD telemetry box when the RC and/or RAG modules are turned on?

4. Can we choose alternatively low TF, Fxyzm , spindle master scale settings, etc. and amplify them with the help of RAG and SC and SG without compromising the dynamic range (therefore creating useless digital "noise". And if we go this alternative way, how does the FFB overall feeling changes in comparison to the hifg tire force settings approach?

I feel as there are answers around...

Thanks to you all guys!

Fight-Test
16-01-2016, 11:54
Thanks for the tip, but I think it's one of the first things I tried, and it was feeling not natural (like too much details !). Do you have a link to the Haiden's setup you are talking about ? I tried one, but maybe not this one !

Hey sorry, try page 32 or 36 maybe of the t300 settings thread. It was somewhere around there. On haidens I always raised the car levels but I like raising the tf more.

Fight-Test
16-01-2016, 11:56
New Wheel Nice!!! What did you get? IMO you should spend as much time driving all the cars stock as possible...you have to learn all the cars strong points and weak points first before you tune. i have also been using My same FFB for Months Just refining the feel making it smoother but not changing its characteristics so i can feel the road in a way that provides me the best tactile road feel...i dont know if your using assist or Not but i recommend turning them off... the assist kill the very forces your trying to feel EX: how would you know when the car is at the edge of it grip limits if TCS or Stability is turned on??? They both cut engine power to try to stop you from spinning out... Every time those assist turn on i can pull .250 on you... by the end of the race that's a huge lead. the worst assist of them all is the driving line... it makes you lazy and not focus to learn the best track lines to take... even if its just subconscious you slow down every time you see the line turn yellow... i used the line for a long time when i cut it off 3 weeks and i was much faster the racing line slows you down.

I'm test driving the Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM on Watkins Glen short and I'm down to a 1:02.548 that's only 2.5 sec off the #1 time and yup I'm stock tune... This time would have put me at 19 on the TT...i would be the Fastest Mercedes Time on TT!!!

Once you get your FFB right you can drive any car any track because you Will know what the car is doing because the FFB will be different per car but very familiar at the same time.... i still use same FFB in every car.

You are saying that tc and abs are slowing us down because they are cutting power and you are faster without?

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 12:02
YES no Abs you can run ABS and still be fast or faster than a guy with abs off. But abs off is faster if you can DOOO IT. And you can see I never mention TC NEVER

Fight-Test
16-01-2016, 12:08
YES no ADS you can run ABS and still be fast or faster than a guy with abs off. But abs off is faster if you can DOOO IT. And you can see I never mention TC NEVER

And if the car realistically runs tc and abs?

poirqc
16-01-2016, 13:10
...What still puzzles me is what is the end goal of the mathematics??? we have a basic knowledge of how the FFB system works...what to tweek, basic # ranges for the set ups depending on your method of tweeking...What is the end result other than understanding.

also can some one explain in their own words what Linear FFB Feel is to them...What does is it supposed to feel like in your opinion....in my head i see it as progressively stronger and stronger the more you turn the wheel ,with No real bump feel kinda like the old wheels when FFB was just a spring in the wheel center with some rumble effects thrown in.

I'm all for the math I'm curious to where its leading to???

Mathematics won't help someone who already has good knowledge of the FFB system. However, it's handy when to understand how piece interact with each others. From there, writing something that summerize how to use the system, in a simple way is possible.

That's what the official guide lacks a bit. Some tools a more thoroughly explained than others. Some not at all. You're at a point, you want to go somewhere. Do you turn left or right... :) I did too many tests with the globals that i can't setup the FFB for myself now, i've lost my references :( At least, if i can help others, i won't have spoiled myself for nothing. :D

As for linearity, well... That's the way i see it:

A wheel can produce a given range of forces. Whatever it is. Forget about deadzone and clipping for now. In pCars, you can put whatever you want into that "window" of forces.
You can pick a wide range from pCars and compress it all there. You can only have road feel and clip the rest. You could forget about road feel and use all the range of force to have super precise kerb sensation. When you choose a given balance, you use the tools in that regard.

I think a better term would be output optimisation.

If we go back in time, at first, i wanted to have a way of unifiying how wheels behave by default. I had this thought because i wondered, if 2 people sit in the same car, it should drive the same! So why should the FFB feel different from wheel to wheel. I'm not really thinking like that anymore, but the thought process is still usefull.

As an example: GrimeyDog, you spent a great deal of time to tweak by feel. In the end you had something good and you shared it.
If i want to try it, since i don't have the same hardware, it'll probably not give the same feeling as you right away. That's where FCM or Diluvian's sheet come handy since i don't have your arms to adapt my settings. :)

If i know how your wheel behave, i can try to make mine behave as close as possible to yours. This means the FFB feeling should be close enough to yours.
I mean, what's the point of sharing a settings if it's something else for the next guys.

As you as rightly asked GrimeyDog: "Linearity" doesn't have a specific feel. Output optimisation only a way to have some common ground between wheels.

A good question is: Can a FFB template from a platform/hardware combo can be translated to a different platform/hardware combo with minimal difference?

I would think so, but it's hard to confirm without having them both side by side.

Cheers!

gotdirt410sprintcar
16-01-2016, 13:43
I think steering sensitivity has a effect 50 to me makes wheel heavy put it at 100 it was way to much set it at 65 now . I think FFB has more room to work thats what it feels like. At 50 heavy wheel FFB satrurates lose some details, 100 light wheel forces feel smoother 65 is closer best it has felt only had this t500 for like two weeks i can feel the changes more. And this has probably already been discussed i dont know.

poirqc
16-01-2016, 14:06
I think steering sensitivity has a effect 50 to me makes wheel heavy put it at 100 it was way to much set it at 65 now . I think FFB has more room to work thats what it feels like. At 50 heavy wheel FFB satrurates lose some details, 100 light wheel forces feel smoother 65 is closer best it has felt only had this t500 for like two weeks i can feel the changes more. And this has probably already been discussed i dont know.

If i'm not mistaken, the base purpose of steering sensitivity is to deal with wheel that has less than 900° DoR. For those wheels, by lowering below 50, the input you make will be smoother around TDC and get faster as you get closer to front wheels lock(steering lock).

That doesn't mean you cant play with it if you have a 900° / 1080° wheel.

morpwr
16-01-2016, 14:31
[QUOTE=Fight-Test;1212833]You are saying that tc and abs are slowing us down because they are cutting power and you are faster without?[/QUOTE

Yes you will be faster without them. You just need to learn to be smooth with everything,steering input,throttle and brake.

morpwr
16-01-2016, 14:38
Nope all just the way you see it.. nothings been changed i use No assist...Never Played a Sim with a wheel that the Assist feel natural... just my driving style been driving the cars stock since forza, Gt5 & 6..... Tell to what you make a room with default set ups lock it and the results will still be the same.
you Just gotta learn to Drive the ruf when you get it its point and shoot.

Edit: Did i mention good FFB Equals consistent Lap times??? LOL its all in the FFB Feel...we use different FFB so yeah your lines are going to be different... Its all about Feel...and i use SoP i like to feel the rear of the car...

Edit: im sooo Simple if you look at the Video my Brakes are cold... i didn't even close the Radiators or Brakes a bit:p... i just now noticed my brakes are blue...LOL

Grimey,
That's a fast lap !You too gotdirt410sprintcar. I'm stuck at 1.08s and low 1.09s. I know where I'm loosing it I just cant stop myself from doing i.lol Its all in the braking. Guess ill have to practice some more.

morpwr
16-01-2016, 14:44
PS4 Pcars Tire Abuse with FFB Graph, Watkins Glen short 1:07.7xx and under 8 laps not 1 red tire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsb_JspjiCc)

I turned the in car Steering wheel On... The Movements of the driver hands on screen pretty much are 1.1 with my RL Wheel movement....All the telemetry you Need... I hope patch 8.0 is better than this because Look at the tire temps No heat or wear issues even after 8 laps of straight abuse...The stock car set up is very tire friendly but still there should be more Heat and wear according to how I'm driving.... Patch 6.0 was much more realistic.

How does the telemetry add up according to your Mathematic calculations??? i can feel every bump and line in the Graph!!! pay attn to the Graph when i cross the paint at the Start finish line... You will see the line pulse as i cross it... i can feel That!!! LOL.

What still puzzles me is what is the end goal of the mathematics??? we have a basic knowledge of how the FFB system works...what to tweek, basic # ranges for the set ups depending on your method of tweeking...What is the end result other than understanding.

also can some one explain in their own words what Linear FFB Feel is to them...What does is it supposed to feel like in your opinion....in my head i see it as progressively stronger and stronger the more you turn the wheel ,with No real bump feel kinda like the old wheels when FFB was just a spring in the wheel center with some rumble effects thrown in.

I'm all for the math I'm curious to where its leading to???

I think linear is a misleading term. More like balanced when describing ffb. But yes from a graph stand point linear. At least for me trying to find a balance of all the forces with none overpowering the rest. Many I have tried have certain forces really exaggerated.

Haiden
16-01-2016, 14:56
PS4 Pcars Tire Abuse with FFB Graph, Watkins Glen short 1:07.7xx and under 8 laps not 1 red tire (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsb_JspjiCc)

How does the telemetry add up according to your Mathematic calculations??? i can feel every bump and line in the Graph!!! pay attn to the Graph when i cross the paint at the Start finish line... You will see the line pulse as i cross it... i can feel That!!! LOL.

What still puzzles me is what is the end goal of the mathematics??? we have a basic knowledge of how the FFB system works...what to tweek, basic # ranges for the set ups depending on your method of tweeking...What is the end result other than understanding.

I'm all for the math I'm curious to where its leading to???

I tried the Ruf at Watkins Short yesterday. First time driving the Ruf GT3, and the short track at Watkins (I know the International layout pretty well, though), also haven't driven any GT3 in at least month. I got a 1:10:XX on my first hot lap. I really want to adjust the brake bias and turn off brake mapping, but I think I'm gonna see how low I can get with the stock tune first.

Also, I hadn't really been able to play for most of the week, and when I came back to my new tune, I hated it. There's no doubt that the lower global FF produces a better feel (I had raised it). Not sure whether it's the higher FF, or the inability to run a higher Master in-car that's the actual culprit, but it's a lot easier to get a full feel/range with the lower FF. I tried your FFB setup (globals and in-car). I don't know... For me, it was a little too rough (not strength-wise, it was more about the sharpness, in terms of how the forces felt), and there was too much oscillation in the Formula A. I know that car is a special case, and particular hard to dial in. What works for all the other cars, often feels bad in the FA, and vice-vera. Your setup probably doesn't produce any oscillation in the other cars, but the Formula A is my favorite, so I had to start there. I did steal your Scoop settings, though. :) They feel better than the default. I've got the globals and in-car dialed in pretty good now. I'm gonna try lowering the Scoop to 65. I think I ran that before with decent results, but it was on the T300, and the other settings were different. I just want to give it a try though.

Anyway...I feel the same about the math. I've been following along, but I just don't know where it's all going, or what to do with the information. I also fear that it might make the game seem less accessible to some players, especially on console where they just want a plug and play experience. For a lot of console players, simply having to read through the forums and test different global FFB configs, is more than they've ever done for a racing game. I'm afraid the math might frustrate them even more. :( Sorry, I'm all for math, but maybe it needs it's own thread. This one just doesn't seem as approachable as it did before to new and average players.


You are saying that tc and abs are slowing us down because they are cutting power and you are faster without?

I agree about Traction Control and Stability Control, but ABS is something that many professional GT drivers actually use. I have mine settings on Real, but ABS is the only one I use in cars where it's available. Of course, as I'm typing this, I realized that before PCars I used to run with all assists off in Forza. Real made sense when I first started in PCars, and easier to work since there were button mappings to turn the others ones off, but...I think I'm gonna try going back to assists off this weekend, and see how those cars feel. :)

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 15:06
I liked your video grim but this is better. https://youtu.be/nGPZs8OZaaw

Do you adjust your brake balance? it looks like you have more at the rear car turns pretty fast. the ruf im talking about


Yes but you can change the brakes when on track im just saying the car turns real good the settings on the page don't change if you adjust when driving. Lol I been racing long enough to know it looks like it has more rear brake lol not being a dick by the way

Ok... i Now i understand better why you questioned the car ability to turn so well...But because its just second nature to me i really didn't understand why you say the car turns sharper/faster than the norm... But as i was going to answer Flight Test question about Not using assist being faster then i understood what you are Noting about the cars sharper turning.... Because i don't use any assist i can Throttle Steer to make the car turn Sharper...I just do it Now with out thinking about it...That's probably the reason i like the Feel of SoP much... its very helpful that i can feel what the rear is doing as i Over Throttle the gas in a curve to Kick the rear out a bit to help point the car where i need it to be.



You are saying that tc and abs are slowing us down because they are cutting power and you are faster without?

Exactly My point you will be faster once you totally adapt to using No assist at all.

poirqc
16-01-2016, 15:38
...Anyway...I feel the same about the math. I've been following along, but I just don't know where it's all going, or what to do with the information. I also fear that it might make the game seem less accessible to some players, especially on console where they just want a plug and play experience. For a lot of console players, simply having to read through the forums and test different global FFB configs, is more than they've ever done for a racing game. I'm afraid the math might frustrate them even more. :( Sorry, I'm all for math, but maybe it needs it's own thread. This one just doesn't seem as approachable as it did before to new and average players...

Imho, for new player, that want to play right away, the first step is just to use the Classic template. Only that. Even if there could be a bit of a deadzone. I think a deadzone is better than lots of clipping.

On the PC, the Default template, for most wheels come with too much Steering Gain(3 to 5) and FFB @ 100%. The Classic templates are all at SG 1 and FFB @ 75 to 85% depending on wheels.

Is this the same for the PS4 or xBox ?

I don't know if someone could confirm this?

Thanks,

P1ckN1cker2406
16-01-2016, 15:45
Imho, for new player, that want to play right away, the first step is just to use the Classic template. Only that. Even if there could be a bit of a deadzone. I think a deadzone is better than lots of clipping.

On the PC, the Default template, for most wheels come with too much Steering Gain(3 to 5) and FFB @ 100%. The Classic templates are all at SG 1 and FFB @ 75 to 85% depending on wheels.

Is this the same for the PS4 or xBox ?

I don't know if someone could confirm this?

Thanks,

On Xbox One the Classic Template is missing now for months. Only Default and Custom on Xbox One.

bmanic
16-01-2016, 15:52
Running without ABS is actually not faster (not in my experimentation) than running with ABS.. however, most people I've seen play online use ABS completely wrong. They simply smash the brake pedal all the way down to the floor and thus forcefully cause longer braking distances. This is what they do not realize:

Even when using ABS you NEED to threshold brake. This way you get optimum braking and the benefit of ABS when turning in while braking. So basically you get the ABS "computer" helping you while you see to it that you help it instead to maintain optimum brake threshold so that it doesn't have to "skip and jump" so much to keep the wheels spinning.

Thus I always tell people to first learn to drive without ABS and then turn it on once they know the threshold braking points of their pedal for all the corners.

poirqc
16-01-2016, 15:54
On Xbox One the Classic Template is missing now for months. Only Default and Custom on Xbox One.

Does Default comes with a high SG and FFB @ 100% ?

Do you have access to other wheel settings that aren't hooked to your xBox?

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 16:03
Mathematics won't help someone who already has good knowledge of the FFB system. However, it's handy when to understand how piece interact with each others. From there, writing something that summerize how to use the system, in a simple way is possible.

That's what the official guide lacks a bit. Some tools a more thoroughly explained than others. Some not at all. You're at a point, you want to go somewhere. Do you turn left or right... :) I did too many tests with the globals that i can't setup the FFB for myself now, i've lost my references :( At least, if i can help others, i won't have spoiled myself for nothing. :D

As for linearity, well... That's the way i see it:

A wheel can produce a given range of forces. Whatever it is. Forget about deadzone and clipping for now. In pCars, you can put whatever you want into that "window" of forces.
You can pick a wide range from pCars and compress it all there. You can only have road feel and clip the rest. You could forget about road feel and use all the range of force to have super precise kerb sensation. When you choose a given balance, you use the tools in that regard.

I think a better term would be output optimisation.

If we go back in time, at first, i wanted to have a way of unifiying how wheels behave by default. I had this thought because i wondered, if 2 people sit in the same car, it should drive the same! So why should the FFB feel different from wheel to wheel. I'm not really thinking like that anymore, but the thought process is still usefull.

As an example: GrimeyDog, you spent a great deal of time to tweak by feel. In the end you had something good and you shared it.
If i want to try it, since i don't have the same hardware, it'll probably not give the same feeling as you right away. That's where FCM or Diluvian's sheet come handy since i don't have your arms to adapt my settings. :)

If i know how your wheel behave, i can try to make mine behave as close as possible to yours. This means the FFB feeling should be close enough to yours.
I mean, what's the point of sharing a settings if it's something else for the next guys.

"As you as rightly asked GrimeyDog: "Linearity" doesn't have a specific feel. Output optimisation only a way to have some common ground between wheels.

A good question is: Can a FFB template from a platform/hardware combo can be translated to a different platform/hardware combo with minimal difference?

I would think so, but it's hard to confirm without having them both side by side."
Cheers!

Excellent Answer Great post... I too had burned myself out with the mathematics of Sim racing games... Pcars is the first game that we could create the FFB in though,but i used to cut up the cars mathematically to tweek the suspension settings and adjust the weight bias of the car ETC in many games... it worked with varying degrees of success, it was never a exact science because there were always unknown variable...Ex: to calculate springs i would need to know how many Points of Movement were calculated into the spring, lets say 10PoM so now we need to know what is the force rate that the spring is Multiplied by as it compresses per unit of movement... and every question leads to another question The Rabbit Hole Goes very deep!!! Knowing the math first is the basic thing to understanding what to tweek and how much to tweek each setting.

Output optimisation is aBrilliant term to describe The per wheel FFB system...

"As you as rightly asked GrimeyDog: "Linearity" doesn't have a specific feel. Output optimisation only a way to have some common ground between wheels.

A good question is: Can a FFB template from a platform/hardware combo can be translated to a different platform/hardware combo with minimal difference?"

as a Multiple wheel owner I can Confirm that while different Brand wheels will Not Put out the same Exact Feel the overall FFB Effects feel is 90 to 95% the same with the Biggest difference being overall Wheel Torque/Power.

EX: to use my tweek V2, TX458,T300 lets say you can leave the car Masters at 100 but now using a T150, G29,911Gt2, you may have to set the car Masters to 75...the tweek can be universal but there will always be certain changes that will have to be made on a per wheel basis or even just a per person FFB basis...
Ex: a person with more upper body strength may need stronger in car FFB settings... in my case if the wheel weight is too low i constantly over steerandfor others stronger FFB is a huge Fight....There is a balance to be found and givin the nature of Pcars FFB system every 1 will have to make a few tweeks to get there settings right for them.

spacepadrille
16-01-2016, 16:49
Hi all ! It seems like this thread is becoming the FFB news channel these times ! ;-) I'm happy with that. We have "Master FFB's Guys" like Grimey, morpwr, Poircq, Bmanic, Haiden..., some "Theoricians" like Tennenbaum, skoader... and a lot of "beta testers" like me and many others. It's the FFB Corporation ! All together we are sharing, spending good time, and making the game enjoyable to play. At the end (soon I hope), we can be able to publish a beautiful reference sheet for the FFB settings, with some base tunings (and the speech coming with like for JS in-car settings) and their different cross-platform translations, e.g. "If you want to try Bmanic's and you have PS4 and T300RS, the settings should be the followings..."
I'm right now trying to choose (and tweak) between Grimey's, Haiden's & morpwr's settings, and I must admit they are all very good, my lap times are the same with all of them ;-)
I love this game, I love the people and the discussions on this thread, 2016 should be a great e-racing year ! :cool:

P1ckN1cker2406
16-01-2016, 17:17
Does Default comes with a high SG and FFB @ 100% ?

Do you have access to other wheel settings that aren't hooked to your xBox?

Steering Gain ist at 1,00 and FFB ist at 100%. But with exact the same settings I use on PC with the Classic Template, the FFB on Xbox One is at least double as strong than on PC. Same thing on PC when using the Default Template with Steering Gain at 1,00. There must be something different on the Default Template. Bumps, Curbs and wheel weight feels completely different also compared to the Classic Template on PC.

What do you mean with other wheel settings that arenīt hooked to my xbox?

poirqc
16-01-2016, 17:29
Hi all ! It seems like this thread is becoming the FFB news channel these times ! ;-) I'm happy with that. We have "Master FFB's Guys" like Grimey, morpwr, Poircq, Bmanic, Haiden..., some "Theoricians" like Tennenbaum, skoader... and a lot of "beta testers" like me and many others. It's the FFB Corporation ! All together we are sharing, spending good time, and making the game enjoyable to play. At the end (soon I hope), we can be able to publish a beautiful reference sheet for the FFB settings, with some base tunings (and the speech coming with like for JS in-car settings) and their different cross-platform translations, e.g. "If you want to try Bmanic's and you have PS4 and T300RS, the settings should be the followings..."
I'm right now trying to choose (and tweak) between Grimey's, Haiden's & morpwr's settings, and I must admit they are all very good, my lap times are the same with all of them ;-)
I love this game, I love the people and the discussions on this thread, 2016 should be a great e-racing year ! :cool:

I'm no master, i don't know more than the next guy really :)


Steering Gain ist at 1,00 and FFB ist at 100%. But with exact the same settings I use on PC with the Classic Template, the FFB on Xbox One is at least double as strong than on PC. Same thing on PC when using the Default Template with Steering Gain at 1,00. There must be something different on the Default Template. Bumps, Curbs and wheel weight feels completely different also compared to the Classic Template on PC.

What do you mean with other wheel settings that arenīt hooked to my xbox?

In PC pCars, in option --> controls --> control schemes, in the upper left of the screen, you can browse thru available wheels, even if they're not hooked to my PC. From there, i can push the calibrate force feeback button and have a look at the default FFB settings of the various wheels.

Is there something similar in the xbox version or you select your control schemes elsewhere?

Thanks,

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 17:43
I'll write what the conclusion i put in the baseline thread some time ago. Do you think it explain the graph above?

When SCFO is dialed to "catch" everything:

SCHI < 0,5*(SCFO) = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces
SCHI > 0,5*(SCFO) = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces



The question if the graphs match with the SCHI < 0,5*SCFO = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces, and
SCHI > 0,5*SCFO = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces, is very interesting...

Opening Pandora's Box... to your own discretion...:D

But the entire thread isn't ideal for beginners... Just seeing the lap-times can make you nervous... ;-)

Though with a better understanding of the non-linear modules RAG and especially Softclipper there might be a better chance to come a step closer towards a relatively simple How To Guide for starters without blindfolding them about the freedom that the system offers. I'm interested in that the devs will not abandon with pCars2 the great freedom to adjust FFB so detailed. So i hope that finally a smart but simple FFB-Manual can be extracted from all the info that got collected in that thread.

Skoader's graphs look innocent, but coupled with the question if there really is headroom >1, the effects of different SCHI and SCFO values are not easy to read. And they do not immediately tell what's the best to do when you want to achieve certain effects.

The graphics i added to skoader's graphs can hopefully make it more comprehensive what the curves do: expanding and/or compressing the input signals to different output ranges, and how limiting can happen below 1.00.

I think it can be said: If you wanna feel more "road-feeling" by feeling more of the smaller forces, setting SCFO to value between 1.0 and 2.0 while setting SCHI to values 0.3 - 1.00 is a good choice, though be aware of side effects. I hear already a lot of you say: We knew that before. True... ;-)

But it also proves that Half Input 0.5 isn't the setting that leads to closest to linear (as it was assumed before in some posts). It's rather a setting of SCHI of 1.0 that keeps the curve closer to "linearity" (speaking in terms of signals, not feeling).

Nevertheless the graphs show clearly how strongly SCHI and SCFO can effect the signal. And - if my conclusions are correct - bowing the I/O curve with SCHI/SCFO can seriously interfere (even contradict) with Scoop Knee/Reductions. In other words, when you make your not-so-linear-wheel response curve more linear with the help of Scoop Knee and Scoop Reduction, and then "bow" it again with SCHI and SCFO..., well, than just make sure you don't dial in the Scoop Knee with a value that is too low, otherwise you just cannibalize your SCHI "bowing".

EDIT: in the graphics i called the levels at which the output signals stall to saturation "clipping." Due to how the Softclipper works (as a expander/compressor and soft limiter at the same time) it's not "clipping" in its origin meaning, it's actually the softer form of it: softer-knee-formed "saturation" is the right word for it.

225383225384225385

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 17:57
Hi all ! It seems like this thread is becoming the FFB news channel these times ! ;-) I'm happy with that. We have "Master FFB's Guys" like Grimey, morpwr, Poircq, Bmanic, Haiden..., some "Theoricians" like Tennenbaum, skoader... and a lot of "beta testers" like me and many others. It's the FFB Corporation ! All together we are sharing, spending good time, and making the game enjoyable to play. At the end (soon I hope), we can be able to publish a beautiful reference sheet for the FFB settings, with some base tunings (and the speech coming with like for JS in-car settings) and their different cross-platform translations, e.g. "If you want to try Bmanic's and you have PS4 and T300RS, the settings should be the followings..."
I'm right now trying to choose (and tweak) between Grimey's, Haiden's & morpwr's settings, and I must admit they are all very good, my lap times are the same with all of them ;-)
I love this game, I love the people and the discussions on this thread, 2016 should be a great e-racing year ! :cool:

Haha, point taken, you're right i didn't prove yet that i can do some decent lap times with all my theory :D
I'll change from my scholar exercises to driving, soon :D

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 18:00
Mercedes CLK-LM vs Mclaren Gt1 FFB Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvEd2lKoosI)


Testing again the Same in Car FFB on different cars... Even though every car i use same in car FFB Settings every car still remains with its own driving Characteristics... with these 2 cars you can see the differences in the Hub Telemetry even though the in Car FFB settings are the same... both cars handle and turn as expected and Note using My Tweek i Do Not have to adjust Arm/Steering angle/DOR i leave the wheel set to Auto and let the Game control that... The Mercedes CLK is very Beastly to drive while the McClaren is much tamer.

Edit: i like the Merc better...yup i always been the odd ball...LOL... that Merc time woulda put me in the TT 17th...LOL ijs:rolleyes:

P1ckN1cker2406
16-01-2016, 18:00
I'm no master, i don't know more than the next guy really :)



In PC pCars, in option --> controls --> control schemes, in the upper left of the screen, you can browse thru available wheels, even if they're not hooked to my PC. From there, i can push the calibrate force feeback button and have a look at the default FFB settings of the various wheels.

Is there something similar in the xbox version or you select your control schemes elsewhere?

Thanks,

Nope. It detects only that input device that is connected to the Xbox. The other Wheels are not selectable.

morpwr
16-01-2016, 18:05
Ok... i Now i understand better why you questioned the car ability to turn so well...But because its just second nature to me i really didn't understand why you say the car turns sharper/faster than the norm... But as i was going to answer Flight Test question about Not using assist being faster then i understood what you are Noting about the cars sharper turning.... Because i don't use any assist i can Throttle Steer to make the car turn Sharper...I just do it Now with out thinking about it...That's probably the reason i like the Feel of SoP much... its very helpful that i can feel what the rear is doing as i Over Throttle the gas in a curve to Kick the rear out a bit to help point the car where i need it to be.





Exact
ly My point you will be faster once you totally adapt to using No assist at all.

That's from learning to drive with the throttle in all those New York winters before we had abs and traction control.lol

Haiden
16-01-2016, 18:16
Imho, for new player, that want to play right away, the first step is just to use the Classic template. Only that. Even if there could be a bit of a deadzone. I think a deadzone is better than lots of clipping.

On the PC, the Default template, for most wheels come with too much Steering Gain(3 to 5) and FFB @ 100%. The Classic templates are all at SG 1 and FFB @ 75 to 85% depending on wheels.

Is this the same for the PS4 or xBox ?

I don't know if someone could confirm this?

Thanks,

The default on PS4 is 1.00. Not sure why they up'd it on Xb1.


Hi all ! It seems like this thread is becoming the FFB news channel these times ! ;-) I'm happy with that. We have "Master FFB's Guys" like Grimey, morpwr, Poircq, Bmanic, Haiden..., some "Theoricians" like Tennenbaum, skoader... and a lot of "beta testers" like me and many others. It's the FFB Corporation ! All together we are sharing, spending good time, and making the game enjoyable to play. At the end (soon I hope), we can be able to publish a beautiful reference sheet for the FFB settings, with some base tunings (and the speech coming with like for JS in-car settings) and their different cross-platform translations, e.g. "If you want to try Bmanic's and you have PS4 and T300RS, the settings should be the followings..."
I'm right now trying to choose (and tweak) between Grimey's, Haiden's & morpwr's settings, and I must admit they are all very good, my lap times are the same with all of them ;-)
I love this game, I love the people and the discussions on this thread, 2016 should be a great e-racing year ! :cool:

Try the updated version, as of today. I lost a lot of detail with the last update. I was trying to smooth out the wheel--eliminate as much of the Mz grinding as possible, reduce some of the hard shock I was feeling from certain forces, and tame the high speed oscillation I was getting in the Formula A. For some reason, I didn't realize how much detail I'd lost until I went back to the old settings after a week with the new ones. I had tuned the old ones on Brand Hatch, while practicing for a career race, and that might have been the issue. For me, the more texture a track has, the easier it is to under tune the feel. I prefer tuning on smoother tracks, because if you can feel the detail there, then you'll certainly be able to feel it on rougher tracks. So I usually tune on Silverstone, and then take that tune to rougher surfaces like Watkins, Brands, and the Nordschleife, and then level off anything that's too strong. I don't know...that approach just works best for me. The updated version does a better job of solving the issues I mentioned above without sacrificing the detail. I'm gonna test a slightly different Scoop setting this weekend, but right now, I think these latest globals and in-car settings are the best I've ever had.

morpwr
16-01-2016, 18:17
Hi all ! It seems like this thread is becoming the FFB news channel these times ! ;-) I'm happy with that. We have "Master FFB's Guys" like Grimey, morpwr, Poircq, Bmanic, Haiden..., some "Theoricians" like Tennenbaum, skoader... and a lot of "beta testers" like me and many others. It's the FFB Corporation ! All together we are sharing, spending good time, and making the game enjoyable to play. At the end (soon I hope), we can be able to publish a beautiful reference sheet for the FFB settings, with some base tunings (and the speech coming with like for JS in-car settings) and their different cross-platform translations, e.g. "If you want to try Bmanic's and you have PS4 and T300RS, the settings should be the followings..."
I'm right now trying to choose (and tweak) between Grimey's, Haiden's & morpwr's settings, and I must admit they are all very good, my lap times are the same with all of them ;-)
I love this game, I love the people and the discussions on this thread, 2016 should be a great e-racing year ! :cool:

Yes its great that all of us can come here share ideas and get along. Not sure if any of us know what the right way actually is but maybe at some point we can actually figure out how to use all the settings to give us the best solution.

Kain NL
16-01-2016, 18:59
I'm no master, i don't know more than the next guy really :)



In PC pCars, in option --> controls --> control schemes, in the upper left of the screen, you can browse thru available wheels, even if they're not hooked to my PC. From there, i can push the calibrate force feeback button and have a look at the default FFB settings of the various wheels.

Is there something similar in the xbox version or you select your control schemes elsewhere?

Thanks,

Nope, the game/console determines what wheel you're using.

poirqc
16-01-2016, 19:09
The question if the graphs match with the SCHI < 0,5*SCFO = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces, and
SCHI > 0,5*SCFO = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces, is very interesting...

Opening Pandora's Box... to your own discretion...:D

But the entire thread isn't ideal for beginners... Just seeing the lap-times can make you nervous...

Though with a better understanding of the non -inear modules RAG and especially Softclipper there might be a better chance to come a step closer towards a relatively simple How To Guide for starters without blindfolding them about the freedom that the system offers. I'm interested in that the devs will not abandon with pCars2 the great freedom to adjust FFB so detailed. So i hope that finally a smart but simple FFB-Manual can be extracted from all the info that got collected in that thread.

Skoader's graphs look innocent, but coupled with the question if there really is headroom >1, the effects of different SCHI and SCFO values are not easy to read. And they do not immediately tell what's the best to do when you want to achieve certain effects.

The graphics i added to skoader's graphs can hopefully make it more comprehensive what the curves do: expanding and/or compressing the input signals to different output ranges, and how limiting can happen below 1.00.

I think it can be said: If you wanna feel more "road-feeling" by feeling more of the smaller forces, setting SCFO to value between 1.0 and 2.0 while setting SCHI to values 0.3 - 1.00 is a good choice, though be aware of side effects. I hear already a lot of you say: We knew that before. True... ;-)

But it also proves that Half Input 0.5 isn't the setting that leads to closest to linear (as it was assumed before in some posts). It's rather a setting of SCHI of 1.0 that keeps the curve closer to "linearity" (speaking in terms of signals, not feeling).

Nevertheless the graphs show clearly how strongly SCHI and SCFO can effect the signal. And - if my conclusions are correct - bowing the I/O curve with SCHI/SCFO can seriously interfere (even contradict) with Scoop Knee/Reductions. In other words, when you make your not-so-linear-wheel response curve more linear with the help of Scoop Knee and Scoop Reduction, and then "bow" it again with SCHI and SCFO..., well, that is... special...:D

When i saw the graph, i said to myself: "TA BAR NACK!!!(French canadian cursing) After reading the post, i said: "Tabarnack de calice!" :D After reading the name of the pdf, i chuckled. :D I'm impressed to say the least. I also didn't fully understand all of it. Can i kiss the princess at the end of the quest?

The first thing i must say is that most of my SC test where done with the same ratio i first used from the official guide. SCHI 1 / SCFO 2,09. From there, it was easy to move them up or down:

I would round up sometimes:
SCHI / SCFO
0,5 / 1
0,8 / 1,69
1 / 2,09
1,1 / 2,29
1,3 / 2,70
1,7 / 3,59

When trying those value, i would slightly move SCHI up or down to see what would come out of that. This is what made me write the formula in the baseline thread. However, i didn't try to see what would happend with only SCHI or SCFO. Or with inverted values... I tried to stay within a range that i thought made sense. At the end of the day, what matters is how using a pCars tool translate into driving. :)


The default on PS4 is 1.00. Not sure why they up'd it on Xb1.

Try the updated version, as of today. I lost a lot of detail with the last update. I was trying to smooth out the wheel--eliminate as much of the Mz grinding as possible, reduce some of the hard shock I was feeling from certain forces, and tame the high speed oscillation I was getting in the Formula A. For some reason, I didn't realize how much detail I'd lost until I went back to the old settings after a week with the new ones. I had tuned the old ones on Brand Hatch, while practicing for a career race, and that might have been the issue. For me, the more texture a track has, the easier it is to under tune the feel. I prefer tuning on smoother tracks, because if you can feel the detail there, then you'll certainly be able to feel it on rougher tracks. So I usually tune on Silverstone, and then take that tune to rougher surfaces like Watkins, Brands, and the Nordschleife, and then level off anything that's too strong. I don't know...that approach just works best for me. The updated version does a better job of solving the issues I mentioned above without sacrificing the detail. I'm gonna test a slightly different Scoop setting this weekend, but right now, I think these latest globals and in-car settings are the best I've ever had.

I agree with you on that one. Beside that special kerb at Brand Hatch, most of them are not too rough. Even if feeling driving behaviors is important, have a nice, not too present road feel make the game so much more enjoyable, from my PoV. It's like having a 2nd slice of pie!

Cheers!

tennenbaum
16-01-2016, 21:20
When i saw the graph, i said to myself: "TA BAR NACK!!!(French canadian cursing) After reading the post, i said: "Tabarnack de calice!" :D After reading the name of the pdf, i chuckled. :D I'm impressed to say the least. I also didn't fully understand all of it. Can i kiss the princess at the end of the quest?

The first thing i must say is that most of my SC test where done with the same ratio i first used from the official guide. SCHI 1 / SCFO 2,09. From there, it was easy to move them up or down:

I would round up sometimes:
SCHI / SCFO
0,5 / 1
0,8 / 1,69
1 / 2,09
1,1 / 2,29
1,3 / 2,70
1,7 / 3,59

When trying those value, i would slightly move SCHI up or down to see what would come out of that. This is what made me write the formula in the baseline thread. However, i didn't try to see what would happend with only SCHI or SCFO. Or with inverted values... I tried to stay within a range that i thought made sense. At the end of the day, what matters is how using a pCars tool translate into driving. :)



I agree with you on that one. Beside that special kerb at Brand Hatch, most of them are not too rough. Even if feeling driving behaviors is important, have a nice, not too present road feel make the game so much more enjoyable, from my PoV. It's like having a 2nd slice of pie!

Cheers!

TA BAR NACK! :D Nice way to say "what the...!" :D

As a matter of fact: You came with just two lines of words so very close to how the Softclipper actually works - 8 months ago (!) when you opened your 'baseline' thread, and you knew already almost to the point, how it works.

I missed to mention how impressed i was when i realized how solid your insights about SC were at that early stage, when the game was just released.

Credits also go to skoader (!) who translated it into a visual comprehensive and mathematically correct form, that could be evaluated, he revealed the Softclippers complex nature. I'm still wondering how he figured that out....

I did some test drives, and his graphs are correct. Everybody can reproduce the effects of the graphs with practical driving tests.

I also dare to say, the "headroom > 1" really exists. The result of the multipliers TF, Fxyzm, spindle master scale, can go over 1.00 and can be compressed into the normalized 1.00 corridor with the help of SCFO.

That also means that the non-linear equation of RAG can be fed with values higher than 1.00...

Don't get me wrong, that doesn't bring FFB settings to a better or higher quality level. The guys figured it out already anyway by their experience and profound testings. But IMO it seems as if it starts to become logical why so different approaches how to set the FFB settings can lead to great results. And it underlines the necessity to look at the in-car FFB settings and globals in whole; you can't look at them separately.

I share Haiden's concern that the math part here gets out of proportion. I hope - when the insights finally prove true - our excursion wasn't a complete waste of time. May be our findings will be translated into some easy to use "best practice" hints.

GrimeyDog
16-01-2016, 23:19
The question if the graphs match with the SCHI < 0,5*SCFO = Expantion of the low forces, less "space" for the high forces, and
SCHI > 0,5*SCFO = Compression of the low forces, more "space" for the high forces, is very interesting...

Opening Pandora's Box... to your own discretion...:D

But the entire thread isn't ideal for beginners... Just seeing the lap-times can make you nervous... ;-)

Though with a better understanding of the non-linear modules RAG and especially Softclipper there might be a better chance to come a step closer towards a relatively simple How To Guide for starters without blindfolding them about the freedom that the system offers. I'm interested in that the devs will not abandon with pCars2 the great freedom to adjust FFB so detailed. So i hope that finally a smart but simple FFB-Manual can be extracted from all the info that got collected in that thread.

Skoader's graphs look innocent, but coupled with the question if there really is headroom >1, the effects of different SCHI and SCFO values are not easy to read. And they do not immediately tell what's the best to do when you want to achieve certain effects.

The graphics i added to skoader's graphs can hopefully make it more comprehensive what the curves do: expanding and/or compressing the input signals to different output ranges, and how limiting can happen below 1.00.

I think it can be said: If you wanna feel more "road-feeling" by feeling more of the smaller forces, setting SCFO to value between 1.0 and 2.0 while setting SCHI to values 0.3 - 1.00 is a good choice, though be aware of side effects. I hear already a lot of you say: We knew that before. True... ;-)

But it also proves that Half Input 0.5 isn't the setting that leads to closest to linear (as it was assumed before in some posts). It's rather a setting of SCHI of 1.0 that keeps the curve closer to "linearity" (speaking in terms of signals, not feeling).

Nevertheless the graphs show clearly how strongly SCHI and SCFO can effect the signal. And - if my conclusions are correct - bowing the I/O curve with SCHI/SCFO can seriously interfere (even contradict) with Scoop Knee/Reductions. In other words, when you make your not-so-linear-wheel response curve more linear with the help of Scoop Knee and Scoop Reduction, and then "bow" it again with SCHI and SCFO..., well, than just make sure you don't dial in the Scoop Knee with a value that is too low, otherwise you just cannibalize your SCHI "bowing".

EDIT: in the graphics i called the levels at which the output signals stall to saturation "clipping." Due to how the Softclipper works (as a expander/compressor and soft limiter at the same time) it's not "clipping" in its origin meaning, it's actually the softer form of it: softer-knee-formed "saturation" is the right word for it.

225383225384225385

The Whole point of me posting Times in my Videos is to show positive proof that tweeking the FFB Works...if i can do it any 1 can do it... Its just a matter of finding the FFB that's right for you... It is Human Nature we all follow what we see works, Simple This is why i post videos with hot lap times and i always i show my settings used.... I'm not special... if it works for me it will work for you and or others.

I Tried to keep my FFB formula very simple,...All the math can lose people who cant or don't want to follow it....i must admit that i struggled to keep up with Poriqcs, Skoader, and your math to begin with tennenbaum... i can do the Math but given the Plug and play Nature of Console Gaming i did Not want to get that deep Mathematically into it again.... that's why i took the simple approach and explained the FFB in very simple terms that most will understand. EX: i call the sliders Volume controls just turn it up until the feel is right for you... Once you have the basic understanding of what sliders to + or - the FFB becomes very simple... I , you or any 1 else can give out the best information but people will still have to tweek to find the exact Tweek #'s that 's right for them... Pcars is Not like McDonalds its More like Burger king where you can have it your way but you first have to know what you want.

poirqc
17-01-2016, 14:02
TA BAR NACK! :D Nice way to say "what the...!" :D

As a matter of fact: You came with just two lines of words so very close to how the Softclipper actually works - 8 months ago (!) when you opened your 'baseline' thread, and you knew already almost to the point, how it works.

I missed to mention how impressed i was when i realized how solid your insights about SC were at that early stage, when the game was just released.

Credits also go to skoader (!) who translated it into a visual comprehensive and mathematically correct form, that could be evaluated, he revealed the Softclippers complex nature. I'm still wondering how he figured that out....

I did some test drives, and his graphs are correct. Everybody can reproduce the effects of the graphs with practical driving tests.

I also dare to say, the "headroom > 1" really exists. The result of the multipliers TF, Fxyzm, spindle master scale, can go over 1.00 and can be compressed into the normalized 1.00 corridor with the help of SCFO.

That also means that the non-linear equation of RAG can be fed with values higher than 1.00...

Don't get me wrong, that doesn't bring FFB settings to a better or higher quality level. The guys figured it out already anyway by their experience and profound testings. But IMO it seems as if it starts to become logical why so different approaches how to set the FFB settings can lead to great results. And it underlines the necessity to look at the in-car FFB settings and globals in whole; you can't look at them separately.

I share Haiden's concern that the math part here gets out of proportion. I hope - when the insights finally prove true - our excursion wasn't a complete waste of time. May be our findings will be translated into some easy to use "best practice" hints.

Yeah, that would be a good translation, really :)

Maybe skoader got some hints in the official guide:

Soft Clipping
This compresses all force within range of the wheel, although the stronger the force, the more
it is squeezed into the higher force range. In some ways this is like Log Scaling in previous
topologies, but Soft Clipping guarantees all signal will squeeze into the range, however
compressed. On the other hand, approaching linear behavior is not implicit with soft clipping,
as it can be with log scaling.

As for SC, for a long time, i didn't really knew how to use it. I only played with RAs. I started to fiddle with it only in December i think. I always thought, wrongly, that RAs where a must. That it was mandatory in a FFB recipe. After re-reading the official guide another time, and by a bit of luck, i was able to land on a working SC setup, without RAs.

Some time ago, when there a debate on how to use the controller FFB @ 100% or below, on console, Grimeydog brought a good point to the table. He talked about how / if a wheel could get overworked with a high controller FFB value. This morning i translated that with Soft Clipping to see if it could also apply there.

I went back to a template (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34461-Yet-another-G27-FFB-template) i tried some time ago. The focus here is on TF / SC:


TF
SCHI
SCFO


38
0,5
1


46
0,6
1,2


53
0,7
1,4


60
0,8
1,6


68
0,9
1,8


76
1
2


152
2
4



I ran the usual Oulton Park, Foster RuF CTR. I ran with no sound to ear how the wheel base would behave. I started with TF38 and tested them one after another. At the end, i toggled between TF 38 and 152 a couple times to double check if my results where good.

To be frank, i couldn't really tell a difference between any of those values. Even in the end when i tried TF 38 and TF 152 back and forth. It was mostly the same. So when SC is compressing, it seems that when ratio between SCHI and SCFO are respected, SC can handle the headroom > 1 just fine.

Now, what does happend if i go into a boost scenario?

I went TF 8 SCHI 0,1 SCFO 0,2. Again it felt somewhat the same.

From my PoV, the "optimal" way of using the Soft Clipper would be with TF of around 100. Not because it produce better FFB. It gives access to a higher number of increments, this leads to easier fine tuning.

It seems that the ratio between SCHI and SCFO against TF is important. Just like FxyzMz within the front wheel forces. Or Front wheels and Rear wheels against TF.

You're right that Soft Clipping seems to be the opposite of Scoops. SC can boost while Scoops attenuate. SC would be a curve while Scoops is 2 tangent.

Enough of it already, let's race!

Cheers!

GrimeyDog
17-01-2016, 17:30
Would you use both systems at the same time or is it better to use just 1 at a time???

poirqc
17-01-2016, 18:39
Would you use both systems at the same time or is it better to use just 1 at a time???

As in Relative Adjusts and Soft Clipping or SCHI and SCFO ?

From my understanding, you can use both RAs and SC at the same time, it's just harder to make them work in tandem than just use RAs or SC.

With either, you can:

Deal with clipping.
Shape the signal to your taste.


It's probably better to plan how to use them before adding them together. I think there would be no point in using both RAs or SC to do the same thing. Like dealing with clipping.

<ramble>
About signal shaping, i am right in saying that:
Soft Clipping can boost only a specific range of forces.
Relatives Adjusts can boost(or attenuate) every ranges of forces within a time constraint.

Since the game's physics can drive the FFB system by themselves pretty good, i think it's probably a good thing to use the pCars tools with the smallest possibles doses. That way, there may be less chances of "unbalancing" everything.
</ramble>

I'm not sure about the ramble part. :)

Thoughts?

GrimeyDog
17-01-2016, 19:14
As in Relative Adjusts and Soft Clipping or SCHI and SCFO ?

From my understanding, you can use both RAs and SC at the same time, it's just harder to make them work in tandem than just use RAs or SC.

With either, you can:

Deal with clipping.
Shape the signal to your taste.


It's probably better to plan how to use them before adding them together. I think there would be no point in using both RAs or SC to do the same thing. Like dealing with clipping.

<ramble>
About signal shaping, i am right in saying that:
Soft Clipping can boost only a specific range of forces.
Relatives Adjusts can boost(or attenuate) every ranges of forces within a time constraint.

Since the game's physics can drive the FFB system by themselves pretty good, i think it's probably a good thing to use the pCars tools with the smallest possibles doses. That way, there may be less chances of "unbalancing" everything.
</ramble>

I'm not sure about the ramble part. :)

Thoughts?

On these matters i will trust you...in order for me to confirm i would have to test test and test again...That's about 3weeks of testing to come up with any good info plus 1 to 3 more weeks of fine tuning it...We are sooo close to 8.0 update i think we should just put testing on hold then go back to it fresh with the 8.0 update...Let our brains relax a bit and run laps with what we have so we can measure and feel what changes 8.0 brings.... Hopefully there will be Good changes.

GrimeyDog
17-01-2016, 19:30
Very interesting... Even Small changes have a impact on the way the car feels... I closed my brake ducts a bit to see if it will give better lap times but instead im driving slower and the car Feels different while braking into the corners... Hmmmm it doesn't feel bad but its really throwing my corner speed off...i guess i am used to the extra drag that the stock Brake duct setting creates... very interesting... Pro = maybe a bit more straight line speed -VS- Con = Changes your Braking line due to less Drag you have to be on the Brake Pedal Longer. i dunno maybe its all in my head.

GrimeyDog
17-01-2016, 19:53
I always tune Tune FFB on Watkins Glen Long then the short for bumpy track and High speed Corner feel... But Sonoma Raceway GP may be the best track in the game to test your car for Smooth track FFB and Weight transfer feel... all The up Hill/Down Hill curves give the best feel for weight transfer and really let you test the limits of grip the car has under weight transfer load while turning.

poirqc
17-01-2016, 20:30
On these matters i will trust you...in order for me to confirm i would have to test test and test again...That's about 3weeks of testing to come up with any good info plus 1 to 3 more weeks of fine tuning it...We are sooo close to 8.0 update i think we should just put testing on hold then go back to it fresh with the 8.0 update...Let our brains relax a bit and run laps with what we have so we can measure and feel what changes 8.0 brings.... Hopefully there will be Good changes.

I'm with you on that one. I'll take a break for now. Too much test one after another messes with my brain.

tennenbaum
17-01-2016, 22:13
Yeah, that would be a good translation, really :)

Maybe skoader got some hints in the official guide:


As for SC, for a long time, i didn't really knew how to use it. I only played with RAs. I started to fiddle with it only in December i think. I always thought, wrongly, that RAs where a must. That it was mandatory in a FFB recipe. After re-reading the official guide another time, and by a bit of luck, i was able to land on a working SC setup, without RAs.

Some time ago, when there a debate on how to use the controller FFB @ 100% or below, on console, Grimeydog brought a good point to the table. He talked about how / if a wheel could get overworked with a high controller FFB value. This morning i translated that with Soft Clipping to see if it could also apply there.

I went back to a template (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34461-Yet-another-G27-FFB-template) i tried some time ago. The focus here is on TF / SC:


TF
SCHI
SCFO


38
0,5
1


46
0,6
1,2


53
0,7
1,4


60
0,8
1,6


68
0,9
1,8


76
1
2


152
2
4



I ran the usual Oulton Park, Foster RuF CTR. I ran with no sound to ear how the wheel base would behave. I started with TF38 and tested them one after another. At the end, i toggled between TF 38 and 152 a couple times to double check if my results where good.

To be frank, i couldn't really tell a difference between any of those values. Even in the end when i tried TF 38 and TF 152 back and forth. It was mostly the same. So when SC is compressing, it seems that when ratio between SCHI and SCFO are respected, SC can handle the headroom > 1 just fine.

Now, what does happend if i go into a boost scenario?

I went TF 8 SCHI 0,1 SCFO 0,2. Again it felt somewhat the same.

From my PoV, the "optimal" way of using the Soft Clipper would be with TF of around 100. Not because it produce better FFB. It gives access to a higher number of increments, this leads to easier fine tuning.

It seems that the ratio between SCHI and SCFO against TF is important. Just like FxyzMz within the front wheel forces. Or Front wheels and Rear wheels against TF.

You're right that Soft Clipping seems to be the opposite of Scoops. SC can boost while Scoops attenuate. SC would be a curve while Scoops is 2 tangent.

Enough of it already, let's race!

Cheers!

It's not the ratio between SCHI and SCFO that matters so much.

Your test was correct, though it was misleading. You "balanced" higher tire forces with higher SCFO values. Which is the reason why you didn't feel a significant difference. At the same time you varied SCHI proportionally. Bt SCHI influences the output the lesser the higher you set SCFO.

The problem is that the name of the SC module is misleading: For example SC Half Input 0.3 evokes the impression that all tire forces around "half" will be scaled to 0.3. It's just the other way round:

The value says instead: Scale an input value of 0.3 to an output value of 0.5. And bow all other input values around that I/O curve to get scaled in a non linear (more logarithmic) way. There is no chance to understand non-linear scaling without looking at skoaders graphs: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1212565&viewfull=1#post1212565

"SC Full Output" actually means not what the module 'outputs', - in contrary - it means what the module "eats" at its input. Therefore by setting the FO value higher (up to 10.00) you tell the system to "catch" all values coming from the tires within a range of 0.00 -10.00 and scale it along the non-linear I/O curve into the normalized output corridor of 0.00 - 1.00. While the shape of the curve gets more straight (linear) or more convex bowed by the Half Input Setting. Again, the truth lies in the graphs.

The reason why you didn't feel much difference with your different settings is, because you increased TF step by step while you enlarged simultaneously step by step the "catching" of higher forces , by increasing SC Full Output Range. Remember: The name is misleading. While increasing SC Full Output, you are actually increasing the input range of the module to "catch" tire forces from the "invisible headroom that goes to 0.00 - 10.00 and beyond. So you increased tire forces and at the same time you made the Soft Clipper catch them accordingly and scale them into the 0.00 - 1.00 output corridor.

I know, the logic is insane!

But you can test it. And you will see it goes along exactly with skoaders graphs. And yes, i proved it today: The "invisible > 1.00 headroom" exists. There tire forces reign far beyond 1.00.

How to test it:

Set:
Disable RAG and SC module. Very important!!
TF = 100.
SG = 100
Fx, Fz, Fm = 0 (Fy shall be the only test signal!)

SoP scale = 0

Set Fy = 100 and spindle master scale = 26. Or Fy = 26 and spindle master scale = 100. The result is the same!
Use e.g. RUF 8 GT3 in Watkins Glen.

Go around the corners. Check on on the HUG graph. You'll see when you push the car to the max around corners, you can almost reach 100%, therefore the HUD graph reaches top of the yellow box but doesn't clip (or clips just a little bit.)

First learning: 1.00 x 0.26 = 0.26 (not 1.00 !!) reaches already 100% of the "peak meter", almost clipping.

Now increase FY from 26 to 50. (Or keep Fy at 26 and increase spindle master scale to 200, it's the same effect.).
50 x 100 = 0.50 (or 26 x 200 = approx. 0.50). (Scale does't allow to dial .25.)

Go around the corners, you'll see: Graph in the HUD is clipping. Of course! You're overdriving the output corridor by the factor 2. Remember you still turned of the two funnel modules RAG and SC.

Now:
Keep TF value at 0.50 (50 Fy x 100 spindle master scale), but turn on SC. Set SCHI to 0.50 and SCFO to 1.00. Result: Signal in the HUD is still clipping, when you go sharp around corners. (Important remark: SCHI = 0.50 and my freely chosen tire Force of 0.50 do NOT correlate in any way, it's just coincidence. You could actually set SCHI different and the result would be quite the same.)

Now:
Set SCFO to 2.50. You'll see: The signal will not clip anymore.

Now:
Set Fy to 100 (keep spindle master scale at 100), which results to 1.00 x 1.00 = 1.00.
Set SCFO to 5.00. You'll see: The signal will not clip anymore.
If you wonder whats's happening: Turn SC off. What happens? Heavy clipping. Remember, SC module is a funnel to normalize higher tire forces to the 0.00 - 1.00 output corridor - by scaling the higher input values to the lower output values (0.00 - 1.00) according to a non linear "bowed" input/output curve.

Now:
Keep Fy to 100. Set master spindle scale to 200. Result: 2.00.
Result: heavy clipping when you turn of SC module.
Turn SC module on, set SCFO to 10.00: result: No clipping.

Another test:

Set Fy 26, spindle master scale to 100.
Leave SCHI = 0.5, and SCFO to 10.00
Result: The HUD curve only reaches maximum approx. 70% to the top.

You wonder why? It's all in the graphs.
You can "reproduce" with the car what's "predicted" in skoaders SC graphs.

SCHI and SFO are two knobs that define both together the shape of the input/output scaling curve that reaches out far beyond I=1 and O=1, actually over-spanning an Input range (of tire Forces) much higher than 1. Actually to about 20.00. (Fy 200 x spindle master scale 200 = 4.00 x 5 = 20.00).

Important: There in an internal multiplier x5 that scales the tire forces. That's how above mentioned test-settings of Fy and spindle master scale go along with the SC module input scale (which is actually SCFO. I know it's so misleading!)

NB 1: RAC can only "catch" tire forces that are not higher than 2.00. (E.g.: Fy 40 x SMS 100 x internal multiplier 5 = 2.00).

What's it all about? How can you benefit from these findings. E.i. that tire forces are computated in an enlarged corridor > 1 before being funneled into RAG and/or SC module,

Well, SC and RAG modules are "normalizer", so you have more freedom to fumble around with tire forces. More precise: You can "granulate" the forces finer.

However: Just the fact that most people turned SC off, and use RAC instead, tells a lot. And IMHO - as long as the tire forces are kept in a range not exceeding 2.00 - the RAC limiter that funnels such forces into the 0.00 - 1.00 corridor is the easier choice.

But when you know how SC works you can utilize it to your benefits. bManic and others do. And his settings work fine.

NB 2: When you know about the internal x5 multiplier to the tire forces, and how SC and RAC work each other , and together, you can much better "read" the guys' settings. How "agile" their wheels are, how "heavy", how "light", and how much they can "differentiate".

And the other way round: FFB settings that you like are always try & error. But knowing how the two "black boxes" RAG/RAB/RAC and SCHI/SCFO work helps to achieve "optimizations" in a shorter time.

(I'll post insights about RAG soon. But i got the feeling i tired everybody out here to the bones - and beyond.... :)No complaint! So i may shift it to another thread. :-)

morpwr
17-01-2016, 22:14
Yeah I'm with you on that. I need to find how grimeys so fast.lol I cant get out of 1.08s with that car. I did try something last night and felt really promising especially for new guys just wanting to jump in. Actually how it should have been from the beginning. But I need to test a little bit more and see if I can go as fast with it.

GrimeyDog
17-01-2016, 23:00
(I'll post insights about RAG soon. But i got the feeling i tired everybody out here to the bones - and beyond.... :)No complaint! So i may shift it to another thread. :-)


Never Speak such Nonsense again:D your technical post are always welcome... I never get tiered or mad reading them... I'm always looking to learn new things. Keep Posting.

tennenbaum
17-01-2016, 23:51
I had the feeling it's about time to do something useful with all my theoretical research... ;)

After a lot of practical testings today i run a 1.08.953 on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 free training, all car settings stock. ...and, surprise!: with GrimeyDogs FFB settings. No kidding. (i found his in-car settings pretty "universal", and together with his globals straight forward and efficient. Yet heavy and strong (i dialed my in-game FFB master a bit down, and set RAB to 0.07 to make my wheel a bit lighter) but immersive, fun, and very "lively": best part: the rumble when you cross the finishing line!!
(On PSN you find my TT time 1.09.251 under my PSN name "miraculix99"...)

Then i used one of my own "out of the lab" settings. With relatively low tire forces (therefore almost none compression/limiting in the RAC module), with a focus on Fm (to feel the Slip Angle) and RAG 1.85, RAB 0.03 and RAC 0.96, no SC (! ;)) and the normal ScooKnee 0.70 and ScoopReduction 0.2. (PS4 with T300RS).

So what did i get from the "lab-set"? Different feeling, but no better lap times ;-), see the other screenshot. High RAG and more weight on Fm while less "inverse" Fz, resulting in a nervous wheel around slip angle, with only little road feel on straights, all in all a bit of a "nerdy" feeling.

NotaBene: Grimey is almost 2 seconds faster! :D And i have absolutely no clue how to shave these seconds off :D

225494225493

GrimeyDog
18-01-2016, 01:53
I had the feeling it's about time to do something useful with all my theoretical research... ;)

After a lot of practical testings today i run a 1.08.953 on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 free training, all car settings stock. ...and, surprise!: with GrimeyDogs FFB settings. No kidding. (i found his in-car settings pretty "universal", and together with his globals straight forward and efficient. Yet heavy and strong (i dialed my in-game FFB master a bit down, and set RAB to 0.07 to make my wheel a bit lighter) but immersive, fun, and very "lively": best part: the rumble when you cross the finishing line!!
(On PSN you find my TT time 1.09.251 under my PSN name "miraculix99"...)

Then i used one of my own "out of the lab" settings. With relatively low tire forces (therefore almost none compression/limiting in the RAC module), with a focus on Fm (to feel the Slip Angle) and RAG 1.85, RAB 0.03 and RAC 0.96, no SC (! ;)) and the normal ScooKnee 0.70 and ScoopReduction 0.2. (PS4 with T300RS).

So what did i get from the "lab-set"? Different feeling, but no better lap times ;-), see the other screenshot. High RAG and more weight on Fm while less "inverse" Fz, resulting in a nervous wheel around slip angle, with only little road feel on straights, all in all a bit of a "nerdy" feeling.

NotaBene: Grimey is almost 2 seconds faster! :D And i have absolutely no clue how to shave these seconds off :D

225494225493

Nice work!!! as you noted My tweek is pretty universal and easy to adjust, I suggest that you take my settings or any 1's settings your comfortable with and tweek them to your liking and do some racing with them... that way you will have a good base point to continue your FFB Research.... the paradox is how would you know what Great FFB is if you never take time to tweek out some good settings first.

Remember i've been using this same FFB Tweek since 3.0 update were going into 8.0 Now!!!...I've tweeked it to make it smoother better by readjusting the Relative and Scoop settings but the basic feel is the same. so I am Very familiar with the FFB Feel and Know Exactly what the car is doing or going to do based on FFB Feel... with enough Practice Good FFB Makes the cars Very Predictable... Practice, Practice, practice and more practice...Also I've been driving cars with stock tunes on them since i got My First Fanatec wheel back in 2010!!!

Yes!!! When i Realized the FFB was Dialed in to the point that i could feel the paint as i cross the start Finish line at Watkins Glen that was a treat:yes:

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-01-2016, 02:25
Soft clipping is tricky i have TF 100, masters from 20-30 gain 98 bl, 03 ,clp 93. if i set half at say 1.00 full 2.09 feels there is to much forces less tire feel. but i set it at half 3.29 full 2.40 i start to feel tire feel better smoother bumps and loss of grip. any idea or am i lost again or is it because i got high lol FFB in game 48

I just cut my time down with the ruf was 1 08 533 now 1 08 061 not much but. half at 3.29 full 2.40 slower with half lower than full cliipper notice this friday but reading everything had me try a lower clippers again i added all my RA AND Master came to be 245 so i put full at 2.40 idk feels better than the other way

tennenbaum
18-01-2016, 08:01
I
Soft clipping is tricky i have TF 100, masters from 20-30 gain 98 bl, 03 ,clp 93. if i set half at say 1.00 full 2.09 feels there is to much forces less tire feel. but i set it at half 3.29 full 2.40 i start to feel tire feel better smoother bumps and loss of grip. any idea or am i lost again or is it because i got high lol FFB in game 48

I just cut my time down with the ruf was 1 08 533 now 1 08 061 not much but. half at 3.29 full 2.40 slower with half lower than full cliipper notice this friday but reading everything had me try a lower clippers again i added all my RA AND Master came to be 245 so i put full at 2.40 idk feels better than the other way

You set SCHI 3.29 and SCFO 2.40, right? Therefore SCHI > SCFO. What happens then? Good question. I think skoader can tell exactly. From my understanding , you're just creating a pretty flat I/O curve with a lot of headroom to catch forces higher forces than 1.00. But there aren't any, since you cut them them to <1 with the help of RAC (0.93).

Your TF = 100, right?
What are your Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm values?
Spindle Master Scale = (20 - 30?)
RAG = 0.98
RAB = 0.30
RAC = 0.93

Since you set RAC to 0.93 you're limiting all tire forces (except some possible "spikes") to max output 0.93. Because SC comes after the RAC stage, you're feeding SC with max 0.93 signal range (except some spikes, but that doesn't really matter in this case. So there aren't any higher forces than 1 (in the "invisible" computation headroom >1) that the SC could "catch" and compress into the normalized output corridor of 0.00 - 1.00.

What happens then might become clearer with the help of the graph drawing. With your SCHI and SCHO settings you actually scale the max 0.93 down to around 0.4 (my graph is not precise, count +/- 0.1). So reduce the dynamic range without need You feel (probably) less details. It might be not so obvious either because you might have amplifiedd the "flat curve" back to output 1.00 with SG (steering gain) or dialed in a quite strong master FFB.

Important: To reproduce the effects i explained and to see it in the HUD graph you must set SG to 1.00.

(BTW: i tested it with using Fy as only one force to avoid confusion, and the driving results and HUD FFB graph were according to the assumed math behind.)

225506

morpwr
18-01-2016, 11:26
I had the feeling it's about time to do something useful with all my theoretical research... ;)

After a lot of practical testings today i run a 1.08.953 on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 free training, all car settings stock. ...and, surprise!: with GrimeyDogs FFB settings. No kidding. (i found his in-car settings pretty "universal", and together with his globals straight forward and efficient. Yet heavy and strong (i dialed my in-game FFB master a bit down, and set RAB to 0.07 to make my wheel a bit lighter) but immersive, fun, and very "lively": best part: the rumble when you cross the finishing line!!
(On PSN you find my TT time 1.09.251 under my PSN name "miraculix99"...)

Then i used one of my own "out of the lab" settings. With relatively low tire forces (therefore almost none compression/limiting in the RAC module), with a focus on Fm (to feel the Slip Angle) and RAG 1.85, RAB 0.03 and RAC 0.96, no SC (! ;)) and the normal ScooKnee 0.70 and ScoopReduction 0.2. (PS4 with T300RS).

So what did i get from the "lab-set"? Different feeling, but no better lap times ;-), see the other screenshot. High RAG and more weight on Fm while less "inverse" Fz, resulting in a nervous wheel around slip angle, with only little road feel on straights, all in all a bit of a "nerdy" feeling.

NotaBene: Grimey is almost 2 seconds faster! :D And i have absolutely no clue how to shave these seconds off :D

225494225493

I spent all weekend trying to figure it out.lol Best I got was a 108.55. I think its his breaking points if you watch his videos he brakes way later and I have no idea how he keeps the car straight into the bus stop. Keep up the great posts.

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-01-2016, 13:23
My master spindle 28, FX 26, fy 60, MZ 100 fz 105 steering gain 1.00 FM? DONT NO. To me I feel I have not loss any details I feel more info is coming thru at these settings. If I run .70 half full at 2.09 its just heavy forces even at half at 1.00 not any real details and it feels just weird. idk never ending with pcars FFB lol thanks I will try what your the math says I guess

My FFB line in the meter stays right in the center most of the time only goes to the top in corners under heavy braking etc. Doesn't look like grimey's FFB line i think jack said you dont need to use the hole meter to have detailed info. And i was faster the way i have it 3.40 half full 2.40 i think i feel more info too. and my FFB master is 48 stock on t500

GrimeyDog
18-01-2016, 13:55
I spent all weekend trying to figure it out.lol Best I got was a 108.55. I think its his breaking points if you watch his videos he brakes way later and I have no idea how he keeps the car straight into the bus stop. Keep up the great posts.

Thats 1 of the Benefits of Not using Assist, I have learned to be very precise with Throttle and Braking... The worst assist of all is the Driving Line... Turn it off if your using it, at First it will suck but you will see in the Long Run the Line slows you Down!!! when you watch my Videos make Notes and compare Corner Entry and Exit Speeds with your Replays... Thats where all the Time is at gotta keep that corner speed up.

Edit: Coner Speed Corner Speed Cornering Speed!!!
If im as little as .250sec faster in 4 corners by the time we Race 4 corner im 1 full sec ahead!!! IMO Straight Line speed is only 10% of Racing when all Cars are within the same Car Class even if your car is .125 Quicker down the Straights that still leave Me with 1/2 sec Lead...All i gotta do is Keep Killing you in the Corners by the end of a 10 lap Race the Time Gap will be Huge!!!

morpwr
18-01-2016, 16:08
Thats 1 of the Benefits of Not using Assist, I have learned to be very precise with Throttle and Braking... The worst assist of all is the Driving Line... Turn it off if your using it, at First it will suck but you will see in the Long Run the Line slows you Down!!! when you watch my Videos make Notes and compare Corner Entry and Exit Speeds with your Replays... Thats where all the Time is at gotta keep that corner speed up.

Edit: Coner Speed Corner Speed Cornering Speed!!!
If im as little as .250sec faster in 4 corners by the time we Race 4 corner im 1 full sec ahead!!! IMO Straight Line speed is only 10% of Racing when all Cars are within the same Car Class even if your car is .125 Quicker down the Straights that still leave Me with 1/2 sec Lead...All i gotta do is Keep Killing you in the Corners by the end of a 10 lap Race the Time Gap will be Huge!!!

Yeah I turned that off along time ago.I raced real ovals back 12 years ago so I get the corner speed. That's why the only place I see your different is the entry to the bus stop. It looks like you don't start breaking until the 2nd last sign and there is no way I can stop that late and make the turn into it. Everything else looks pretty equal as far as corner speed goes.

GrimeyDog
18-01-2016, 16:33
Yeah I turned that off along time ago.I raced real ovals back 12 years ago so I get the corner speed. That's why the only place I see your different is the entry to the bus stop. It looks like you don't start breaking until the 2nd last sign and there is no way I can stop that late and make the turn into it. Everything else looks pretty equal as far as corner speed goes.

Truthfully i dont even look at the signs any more...i just Look ahead for the corner Entrance/Apex and Go for it.... Cant always use the corner Markers...take your eyes off the Road for just a Fraction of a sec in that kind of corner and you Miss your Mark....other tracks where they have them at the Curb some one always knocks them down... Some People usually the fast guys do it on purpose to screw the people that use them as Braking Markrs.

Watch that first up hill section before the bus Stop... Thats a Real important section right there!!! You gotta get that Line right to be fast down that straight... if you get that line Right you can Full throttle and Never Lift all the way until you get to the Bus Stop in the Gt3 Ruf.

morpwr
18-01-2016, 16:55
Truthfully i dont even look at the signs any more...i just Look ahead for the corner Entrance/Apex and Go for it.... Cant always use the corner Markers...take your eyes off the Road for just a Fraction of a sec in that kind of corner and you Miss your Mark....other tracks where they have them at the Curb some one always knocks them down... Some People usually the fast guys do it on purpose to screw the people that use them as Braking Markrs.

Watch that first up hill section before the bus Stop... Thats a Real important section right there!!! You gotta get that Line right to be fast down that straight... if you get that line Right you can Full throttle and Never Lift all the way until you get to the Bus Stop in the Gt3 Ruf.

That's exactly how I run it. I just used the sign as an example I know I cant slow down that late and watching the pedals on the telemetry that's were youre slowing down. Actually the last corner and first corners are real important too as they kill your speed if you screw them up.

tennenbaum
18-01-2016, 19:47
My master spindle 28, FX 26, fy 60, MZ 100 fz 105 steering gain 1.00 FM? DONT NO. To me I feel I have not loss any details I feel more info is coming thru at these settings. If I run .70 half full at 2.09 its just heavy forces even at half at 1.00 not any real details and it feels just weird. idk never ending with pcars FFB lol thanks I will try what your the math says I guess

My FFB line in the meter stays right in the center most of the time only goes to the top in corners under heavy braking etc. Doesn't look like grimey's FFB line i think jack said you dont need to use the hole meter to have detailed info. And i was faster the way i have it 3.40 half full 2.40 i think i feel more info too. and my FFB master is 48 stock on t500


Hhm, all your settings sound reasonable to me, except the strange SCHI and SCHO values. I wonder about the effect you describe. May be you prefer a saturated wheel that differentiates less, but as a relatively low total FFB strength. And the way you set SCHI and SCFO reduces the output anyway. (see graph), may be you like a lighter wheel. Some guys run world record times without any FFB or very light wheels.

The fact that your HUD graph doesn't oscillate much, in terms of hitting the top and half of the box (graphs go up = cornering right, down = cornering to the left) indicate, that you don't get much signal out of SC, due to your unusual settings. That seems to be what my graph picture kind of "predicts ".

Is SG really set to 1.00? And check if you dialed in SOP without knowing. Try to set SCHI and SCFO off. Then you have a pretty "normal" setting that works for most of the guys. BTW: SCHI 0.7 and SCFO 2.09 don't seem to make sense to me. (0.7. is relatively high when you wanna get more "road feel", meaning you want to feel lower forces better. And 2.04 is quite high, while your RAC setting (0.93) only spits out less than 1.00 anyway.

GrimeyDog
18-01-2016, 19:48
That's exactly how I run it. I just used the sign as an example I know I cant slow down that late and watching the pedals on the telemetry that's were youre slowing down. Actually the last corner and first corners are real important too as they kill your speed if you screw them up.

if you look I'm Not really braking in that corner... Yes i do Hit the brakes but its hard stab braking mainly to shift the cars weight to the left side right after the 2 Quick down shifts... then Coast according to grip feel in the wheel or throttle steer to point the nose of the car where i want it...it all depends on if i get the line right or not.
You can do it too!!! its just about feeling the Track and being familiar and Comfortable with the FFB.. You Gotta trust it... If you feel the grip in the Wheel you can Make it... Most of the time when i mess up i Can feel the car losing Grip in the Wheel.

tennenbaum
18-01-2016, 21:05
Thats 1 of the Benefits of Not using Assist, I have learned to be very precise with Throttle and Braking... The worst assist of all is the Driving Line... Turn it off if your using it, at First it will suck but you will see in the Long Run the Line slows you Down!!! when you watch my Videos make Notes and compare Corner Entry and Exit Speeds with your Replays... Thats where all the Time is at gotta keep that corner speed up.

Edit: Coner Speed Corner Speed Cornering Speed!!!
If im as little as .250sec faster in 4 corners by the time we Race 4 corner im 1 full sec ahead!!! IMO Straight Line speed is only 10% of Racing when all Cars are within the same Car Class even if your car is .125 Quicker down the Straights that still leave Me with 1/2 sec Lead...All i gotta do is Keep Killing you in the Corners by the end of a 10 lap Race the Time Gap will be Huge!!!

Yep. Driving line keeps you away from looking more far ahead: Not to the apex you're aiming at, but the next turn. First thing that pro racing teachers teach you. While I say so, i have to force myself to turn Driving Line off... :)
Yep. Its about the little differences at each corner that sum up to 1-2 seconds total lap time, which means a whole world in racing. (I will not compete! Drives me crazy... ;-))

morpwr
18-01-2016, 21:35
Yep. Driving line keeps you away from looking more far ahead: Not to the apex you're aiming at, but the next turn. First thing that pro racing teachers teach you. While I say so, i have to force myself to turn Driving Line off... :)
Yep. Its about the little differences at each corner that sum up to 1-2 seconds total lap time, which means a whole world in racing. (I will not compete! Drives me crazy... ;-))

I used to laugh all the time at guys bitching they didn't have enough motor or he was cheating when I raced. When really he was faster through the corner which made him look that much faster down the straight.

spacepadrille
19-01-2016, 01:32
Hello Guys !

Did someone experienced the following issue ? My FFB is really fantastic during qualifications (thanks morpwr ;-), but as soon as I start the race, the wheel feeling changes, not so much in terms of stiffness, but a lot in terms of dynamic, quick micro moves, in one word there is less life in the wheel, everything is more "chewing-gummed". Nothing to do with the tyre's temperature, in qualification I raise them to nearly 100°C. Nothing to do either with the numbers of AI, with only 10 AI it's the same. I tried several cars, same same.

Maybe Grimey will tell me to do a total reset, I know I should, but just before the patch 8... pff.

So if anyone as any good idea...

morpwr
19-01-2016, 02:10
Hello Guys !

Did someone experienced the following issue ? My FFB is really fantastic during qualifications (thanks morpwr ;-), but as soon as I start the race, the wheel feeling changes, not so much in terms of stiffness, but a lot in terms of dynamic, quick micro moves, in one word there is less life in the wheel, everything is more "chewing-gummed". Nothing to do with the tyre's temperature, in qualification I raise them to nearly 100°C. Nothing to do either with the numbers of AI, with only 10 AI it's the same. I tried several cars, same same.

Maybe Grimey will tell me to do a total reset, I know I should, but just before the patch 8... pff.

So if anyone as any good idea...

Glad they work for you. Ive had to do the same thing with the resets somehow everything gets screwed up. I haven't done any races with qualifying so I couldn't say about that. Just a thought did you change tire type from qualifying to the race? Or possibly the game did it for you?lol

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-01-2016, 02:12
Hello Guys !

Did someone experienced the following issue ? My FFB is really fantastic during qualifications (thanks morpwr ;-), but as soon as I start the race, the wheel feeling changes, not so much in terms of stiffness, but a lot in terms of dynamic, quick micro moves, in one word there is less life in the wheel, everything is more "chewing-gummed". Nothing to do with the tyre's temperature, in qualification I raise them to nearly 100°C. Nothing to do either with the numbers of AI, with only 10 AI it's the same. I tried several cars, same same.

Maybe Grimey will tell me to do a total reset, I know I should, but just before the patch 8... pff.

So if anyone as any good idea... I had that happen with my t500 I had to shut everything down and start again fixed it. just back out of game unplug wheel start again should fix it

gotdirt410sprintcar
19-01-2016, 02:24
Hhm, all your settings sound reasonable to me, except the strange SCHI and SCHO values. I wonder about the effect you describe. May be you prefer a saturated wheel that differentiates less, but as a relatively low total FFB strength. And the way you set SCHI and SCFO reduces the output anyway. (see graph), may be you like a lighter wheel. Some guys run world record times without any FFB or very light wheels.

The fact that your HUD graph doesn't oscillate much, in terms of hitting the top and half of the box (graphs go up = cornering right, down = cornering to the left) indicate, that you don't get much signal out of SC, due to your unusual settings. That seems to be what my graph picture kind of "predicts ".

Is SG really set to 1.00? And check if you dialed in SOP without knowing. Try to set SCHI and SCFO off. Then you have a pretty "normal" setting that works for most of the guys. BTW: SCHI 0.7 and SCFO 2.09 don't seem to make sense to me. (0.7. is relatively high when you wanna get more "road feel", meaning you want to feel lower forces better. And 2.04 is quite high, while your RAC setting (0.93) only spits out less than 1.00 anyway. Sorry for got about sop scale 28, 40 on the diff, 0 lateral SG 1.00 but my low speed saturation is 40 coex is 75 don't now if it really does anything or not so what would you think I should try.I guess I better go back couple pages read it again. thanks for the response

my deadzone is 12 falloff is 01 scoops 94 12

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 06:02
Sorry for got about sop scale 28, 40 on the diff, 0 lateral SG 1.00 but my low speed saturation is 40 coex is 75 don't now if it really does anything or not so what would you think I should try.I guess I better go back couple pages read it again. thanks for the response

my deadzone is 12 falloff is 01 scoops 94 12

Deadzone Removal 12 ???

Low speed settings do not matter (don't influence the driving at normal speeds) you can turn them off IMO.

The SOP settings that you set can't be the reason of strange effects.

The scoop knee sits quite high, try to set it to 0.7.

Or just use GrimeyDogs setting and start from the beginning, so you know how a certain FFB settings feel, that others found attractive :-)

GrimeyDog
19-01-2016, 13:11
Deadzone Removal 12 ???

Low speed settings do not matter (don't influence the driving at normal speeds) you can turn them off IMO.

The SOP settings that you set can't be the reason of strange effects.

The scoop knee sits quite high, try to set it to 0.7.

Or just use GrimeyDogs setting and start from the beginning, so you know how a certain FFB settings feel, that others found attractive :-)

The settings were made Specifically to be Tweeked for individual FFB Taste... there is a lot of Room to Reduce the Masters and increase fy,Fx, Sop etc to desired Personal FFB taste... The Settings can Even be used with out using SoP if you dont like tht Feel

Haiden
19-01-2016, 17:08
Sorry for got about sop scale 28, 40 on the diff, 0 lateral SG 1.00 but my low speed saturation is 40 coex is 75 don't now if it really does anything or not so what would you think I should try.I guess I better go back couple pages read it again. thanks for the response

my deadzone is 12 falloff is 01 scoops 94 12


Deadzone Removal 12 ???

Low speed settings do not matter (don't influence the driving at normal speeds) you can turn them off IMO.


The scoop knee sits quite high, try to set it to 0.7.

I've been playing the Low Speed Spring Saturation. I used to have mine at 0.75. I started testing it at 0.30 and 1.00 to see the difference. It definitely changes the feel, although not as drastic as I thought it would, bouncing between those extremes. But I can feel a difference in overall saturation. I thought a lower setting would let more detail through, but I'm not sure that's happening. It feels that way at first, but my lap times seem to be better when it's higher, and I think I can feel more of the undulations in the track. This is actually the last setting I'm trying to dial in on my tune. I may have to just run with it both ways for a few days, so I can settle into each feel and really compare times.

Also, I agree. That Scoop setting seems a little high, regulating a lot of detail to the lower force range.

morpwr
19-01-2016, 17:39
Well guys for those using jacks files they do not work right. I spent 30 minutes last night doing the car ffb myself and dropped right to low 1.08s on Watkins glen not really pushing hard. This was after spending 2 days trying to figure out how grimey was so fast. I was onto this a while back with his fy and mz settings being off and stopped playing with it to sort out the wheel. The car ffb doesn't change the car physics but it definitely changes what you think you feel if that makes sense. I think grimey has been on to something for a while now just took me a bit to catch on. Regardless of the route you go either doing them yourself or using grimeys id change what your using. Yes its a little work but youll be faster in the long run.

Haiden
19-01-2016, 18:06
The car ffb doesn't change the car physics but it definitely changes what you think you feel if that makes sense. I think grimey has been on to something for a while now just took me a bit to catch on. Regardless of the route you go either doing them yourself or using grimeys id change what your using. Yes its a little work but youll be faster in the long run.

That's so true. It really makes you think the car handling has changed. But it's just your brain responding to the different tactile forces. It's not a requirement to enjoy the game, but it definitely improves the experience if you fine tune your settings to your personal tastes.

I think, in the end, your specific style/tastes for feel is heavily influenced by the types of racing games you've played in the past, and how many hours in them. Basically, however your brain was wired to interpret certain forces. Similar to how people that learned to play FPS on PC Keyboards, sometimes have difficulty adjusting to controllers. In fact, I never really got use to using a controller in FPSs. :)

Edit: Also, I keep forgetting to mention... When testing out FFB, don't forget to do a few laps driving poorly. If you only test the feel driving on the prime line and hitting all your marks, you may not be getting the full range experience. Go offline, swing wide, and do things that force you to correct to make sure those force responses also feel right. You can also pack the grid with lower AI, and do Race Weekend practice sessions, negotiating the slower traffic is a good way to get more testing range.

morpwr
19-01-2016, 18:18
That's so true. It really makes you think the car handling has changed. But it's just your brain responding to the different tactile forces. It's not a requirement to enjoy the game, but it definitely improves the experience if you fine tune your settings to your personal tastes.

I think, in the end, your specific style/tastes for feel is heavily influenced by the types of racing games you've played in the past, and how many hours in them. Basically, however your brain was wired to interpret certain forces. Similar to how people that learned to play FPS on PC Keyboards, sometimes have difficulty adjusting to controllers. In fact, I never really got use to using a controller in FPSs. :)

Very true taste does have a lot to do with it but in the end you need to know what the car is doing to be fast. That is one of the pitfalls of having all these adjustments you can make the car feel wrong without knowing it. What feels like too much slip angle is actually a ffb problem or the rear feels loose again ffb problem. I'm sure most of us have made the car feel like it has zero grip at one point when playing with these.

poirqc
19-01-2016, 18:23
That's so true. It really makes you think the car handling has changed. But it's just your brain responding to the different tactile forces. It's not a requirement to enjoy the game, but it definitely improves the experience if you fine tune your settings to your personal tastes.

I think, in the end, your specific style/tastes for feel is heavily influenced by the types of racing games you've played in the past, and how many hours in them. Basically, however your brain was wired to interpret certain forces. Similar to how people that learned to play FPS on PC Keyboards, sometimes have difficulty adjusting to controllers. In fact, I never really got use to using a controller in FPSs. :)

Edit: Also, I keep forgetting to mention... When testing out FFB, don't forget to do a few laps driving poorly. If you only test the feel driving on the prime line and hitting all your marks, you may not be getting the full range experience. Go offline, swing wide, and do things that force you to correct to make sure those force responses also feel right. You can also pack the grid with lower AI, and do Race Weekend practice sessions, negotiating the slower traffic is a good way to get more testing range.

Indeed, testing how the car behave when you throw it around, like what could happen in a race is important.

morpwr
19-01-2016, 18:38
That's so true. It really makes you think the car handling has changed. But it's just your brain responding to the different tactile forces. It's not a requirement to enjoy the game, but it definitely improves the experience if you fine tune your settings to your personal tastes.

I think, in the end, your specific style/tastes for feel is heavily influenced by the types of racing games you've played in the past, and how many hours in them. Basically, however your brain was wired to interpret certain forces. Similar to how people that learned to play FPS on PC Keyboards, sometimes have difficulty adjusting to controllers. In fact, I never really got use to using a controller in FPSs. :)

Edit: Also, I keep forgetting to mention... When testing out FFB, don't forget to do a few laps driving poorly. If you only test the feel driving on the prime line and hitting all your marks, you may not be getting the full range experience. Go offline, swing wide, and do things that force you to correct to make sure those force responses also feel right. You can also pack the grid with lower AI, and do Race Weekend practice sessions, negotiating the slower traffic is a good way to get more testing range.

Ever seen me drive?l:p lol

spacepadrille
19-01-2016, 20:26
Well guys for those using jacks files they do not work right. I spent 30 minutes last night doing the car ffb myself and dropped right to low 1.08s on Watkins glen not really pushing hard. This was after spending 2 days trying to figure out how grimey was so fast. I was onto this a while back with his fy and mz settings being off and stopped playing with it to sort out the wheel. The car ffb doesn't change the car physics but it definitely changes what you think you feel if that makes sense. I think grimey has been on to something for a while now just took me a bit to catch on. Regardless of the route you go either doing them yourself or using grimeys id change what your using. Yes its a little work but youll be faster in the long run.

I morpwr ! Can you show us the final tweak of the car, to see how far it is from JS, and in what way you change it ? Except if you want to keep it secret to beat Grimey ;-)

I use yours settings except TF 85 instead of 80 and SG 77 instead of 75. It works very fine for most of the cars, with JS classic. I remove as much smoothing that I can, for some cars it's possible to do 0 smooth.

dawgpaws11
19-01-2016, 20:41
Hey guys
This has been a great thread.. morpwr, your thread as well.. With those throwing in calculations to the more feel theories really been fun to follow.

The suggestion the other day about using either SC or RA got me thinking a bit.. With all these systems going into place to increase or amplify certain forces while decreasing or diminishing others, i started thinking that maybe there is just too much going into the system than necessary.. Also i have been wondering why Jacks Spade who involved with the developers from the beginning would not work on consoles/PS4 but yet on PC's there is no questioning his baselines or raising questions.. they work great apparently.. all the ffb discussion and complaining seems to be coming from the consoles.. whenever i think that i have got, then i go to another car and it completely wrong..

Anyway, so last night i decided to take away all RA and the SC(never actually used it) and only have the SK which as of now is just default of 0.70 and 0.15... my TF is 100 and steering gain is 1.00.. the master ffb is 48, which is what is the default Project cars gives for my wheel T500rs.. I ran some cars with default in car ffb setting and felt ok but not great.. decided to try jacks ffb classic setting again, and... wow it felt great.. maybe a little light, but i didnt have any glitches(usually a restart of game, and unplug and reset the wheel) throughout the night that usually have at least 3 times a night with playing MP online..going to try messing around tonight to see where it is best to increase the master ffb or TF to increase wheel weight.

what is interesting is that when i tried to just increase Jacks master values, it didnt feel heavier and it seemed as though clipping definitely came into play.. which would make sense since neither RA or SC was being used... and would ruin the feeling due to over saturation.. which makes sense as to why Jack had those set the way he did set each to the way he did..

Any i was really just curious if someone would also give it a try to see what they think..

100 TF
Default master FB (48 for me.. think it is 75 from what i have read for t300)
RAG 0
RAB 0
RAC 0

SK 0.70 (might be changing these)
SR 0.15

SC 0 for both

1.0 SG

in car use Jack spades Classic or whatever you choose..


I use t500rs with F1 wheel


Think we need to take this discussion to the track soon and start to let our driving do the talking..haha ... If you guys ever want to run my psn is the same as my name here: dawgpaws11

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 21:27
Ever seen me drive?l:p lol

lol

GrimeyDog
19-01-2016, 21:46
That's so true. It really makes you think the car handling has changed. But it's just your brain responding to the different tactile forces. It's not a requirement to enjoy the game, but it definitely improves the experience if you fine tune your settings to your personal tastes.

I think, in the end, your specific style/tastes for feel is heavily influenced by the types of racing games you've played in the past, and how many hours in them. Basically, however your brain was wired to interpret certain forces. Similar to how people that learned to play FPS on PC Keyboards, sometimes have difficulty adjusting to controllers. In fact, I never really got use to using a controller in FPSs. :)

Edit: Also, I keep forgetting to mention... When testing out FFB, don't forget to do a few laps driving poorly. If you only test the feel driving on the prime line and hitting all your marks, you may not be getting the full range experience. Go offline, swing wide, and do things that force you to correct to make sure those force responses also feel right. You can also pack the grid with lower AI, and do Race Weekend practice sessions, negotiating the slower traffic is a good way to get more testing range.


Very true taste does have a lot to do with it but in the end you need to know what the car is doing to be fast. That is one of the pitfalls of having all these adjustments you can make the car feel wrong without knowing it. What feels like too much slip angle is actually a ffb problem or the rear feels loose again ffb problem. I'm sure most of us have made the car feel like it has zero grip at one point when playing with these.


Indeed, testing how the car behave when you throw it around, like what could happen in a race is important.


I morpwr ! Can you show us the final tweak of the car, to see how far it is from JS, and in what way you change it ? Except if you want to keep it secret to beat Grimey ;-)

I use yours settings except TF 85 instead of 80 and SG 77 instead of 75. It works very fine for most of the cars, with JS classic. I remove as much smoothing that I can, for some cars it's possible to do 0 smooth.



Catchin the Slide 2!!! Good FFB Makes it Easy!!! Gt1 Mercedes CLK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFUJXXsRaOg)


I think i got every body:D

Good FFB always save the day... very Short Clip from the Gt1 Mercedes CLK.... i was way hot and hit the inside rumble strip coming outta the bus stop... Watch the Driver hands on wheel and keep your eye on the throttle meter and see how easy it was for me to Counter and Throttle Steer my way out of what should have been a nasty spin!!! Never hit the Brakes and Dropped speed below 103mph..... I could clearly feel what the car was doing and what i needed to do to keep it straight and my speed up.... Its all about Good FFB feel.

After using the FFB that you have gotten used to every FFB is Going to feel Strange...your going to have to readjust your whole Pcars driving style!!! But using so many different FFB Tweeks for soo long you probably have developed some really bad Driving habbits...You need to start from scratch so you can Remember what Pcars Pure Road feel feels Like...When you get that pure Pcars road feel back you will be able to seperate the tweeks with good pure Road feel and the tweeks that have altered the Road feel because the tweek is Extreem.... The stock Pcars settings are pretty good you just Need to + or - on what you want to feel most.... I recommend starting from scratch or a neutral tweek and just + or - to get best feel for you....i use the v2 and i like a medium to heavy wheel it keeps me from over steering... i guess I'm stronger than i realize:rolleyes: so i set my masters to 100... you may not like your wheel strong so you may want 50,75 Etc what ever The FFB is there and awaits you to awaken it!!! Welcome to the dark side:victorious: What ever you chose the FFB is in there and its really Good... Your Mission should you accept is to bring the FFB to the light.... This message will self destruct when you close the web page.:loyal:

poirqc
19-01-2016, 22:06
Hey guys
This has been a great thread.. morpwr, your thread as well.. With those throwing in calculations to the more feel theories really been fun to follow.

The suggestion the other day about using either SC or RA got me thinking a bit.. With all these systems going into place to increase or amplify certain forces while decreasing or diminishing others, i started thinking that maybe there is just too much going into the system than necessary.. Also i have been wondering why Jacks Spade who involved with the developers from the beginning would not work on consoles/PS4 but yet on PC's there is no questioning his baselines or raising questions.. they work great apparently.. all the ffb discussion and complaining seems to be coming from the consoles.. whenever i think that i have got, then i go to another car and it completely wrong..

Anyway, so last night i decided to take away all RA and the SC(never actually used it) and only have the SK which as of now is just default of 0.70 and 0.15... my TF is 100 and steering gain is 1.00.. the master ffb is 48, which is what is the default Project cars gives for my wheel T500rs.. I ran some cars with default in car ffb setting and felt ok but not great.. decided to try jacks ffb classic setting again, and... wow it felt great.. maybe a little light, but i didnt have any glitches(usually a restart of game, and unplug and reset the wheel) throughout the night that usually have at least 3 times a night with playing MP online..going to try messing around tonight to see where it is best to increase the master ffb or TF to increase wheel weight.

what is interesting is that when i tried to just increase Jacks master values, it didnt feel heavier and it seemed as though clipping definitely came into play.. which would make sense since neither RA or SC was being used... and would ruin the feeling due to over saturation.. which makes sense as to why Jack had those set the way he did set each to the way he did..

Any i was really just curious if someone would also give it a try to see what they think..

100 TF
Default master FB (48 for me.. think it is 75 from what i have read for t300)
RAG 0
RAB 0
RAC 0

SK 0.70 (might be changing these)
SR 0.15

SC 0 for both

1.0 SG

in car use Jack spades Classic or whatever you choose..


I use t500rs with F1 wheel


Think we need to take this discussion to the track soon and start to let our driving do the talking..haha ... If you guys ever want to run my psn is the same as my name here: dawgpaws11

On a strong wheel, running without RAs and SC can work pretty well with a nicely balance Car FFB.


I think i got every body:D

Good FFB always save the day... very Short Clip from the Gt1 Mercedes CLK.... i was way hot and hit the inside rumble strip coming outta the bus stop... Watch the Driver hands on wheel and keep your eye on the throttle meter and see how easy it was for me to Counter and Throttle Steer my way out of what should have been a nasty spin!!! Never hit the Brakes and Dropped speed below 103mph..... I could clearly feel what the car was doing and what i needed to do to keep it straight and my speed up.... Its all about Good FFB feel.

After using the FFB that you have gotten used to every FFB is Going to feel Strange...your going to have to readjust your whole Pcars driving style!!! But using so many different FFB Tweeks for soo long you probably have developed some really bad Driving habbits...You need to start from scratch so you can Remember what Pcars Pure Road feel feels Like...When you get that pure Pcars road feel back you will be able to seperate the tweeks with good pure Road feel and the tweeks that have altered the Road feel because the tweek is Extreem.... The stock Pcars settings are pretty good you just Need to + or - on what you want to feel most.... I recommend starting from scratch or a neutral tweek and just + or - to get best feel for you....i use the v2 and i like a medium to heavy wheel it keeps me from over steering... i guess I'm stronger than i realize:rolleyes: so i set my masters to 100... you may not like your wheel strong so you may want 50,75 Etc what ever The FFB is there and awaits you to awaken it!!! Welcome to the dark side:victorious: What ever you chose the FFB is in there and its really Good... Your Mission should you accept is to bring the FFB to the light.... This message will self destruct when you close the web page.:loyal:

When i started the baseline thread, because i'm lousy at math and discussions where still going, one of the first thing i wrote was:


Test drives
What i can recommend when doing test drives is to pick a track and a race car you know. You should have a easier time tracking how the FFB react to curbs and road bumps. As for race cars, they tend to have a more direct link to the road. It's a good thing to do time trials. You won't lose time going out of the pits and the tires are already warm. I suggest you do 2 or 3 laps at once. Do a normal lap for the first one. Trow the car around for the others to see how it behave in tight situations. Change only a parameter at once. It will be easier to track how things changed. If you're to a point where it feels good. Keep the same track but try different kinds of car that you like. Touring, Road, Race. Mix them.

If they all feel good, congratulation. If not, take back you're first car and fix what driving behavior you want to adjusts with the corresponding tool. There's some small explanation below about witch does what. Good luck.

Most of the guys here knows it, but i think i should emphasize that in the thread.

Keep it up guys!

morpwr
19-01-2016, 22:12
I agree 100% that what works on pc doesn't work well on consoles. Look at most of the wheel settings here they arent far off from default values in most cases. I realize what jack tried to do but we cant run 100% ffb on consoles as it causes way too many issues that cant be fixed properly and we don't have the extra profiler screen. Grimey got me to realize something was wrong watching his videos I just couldn't do what he did with the car. So I said whats different? His car ffb! Even just spending 30 minutes I had a way better grip feel then I ever had. For those using mine with jacks pay attention to the top of the s turns at Watkins glen the car always sort of looses feel there or really has no grip feel. Yes his tweaks feel lively but you don't have good feel for traction and the loose feeling is artificial. Once you try something different you will see what we mean.

GrimeyDog
19-01-2016, 22:14
LOL!!! i forgot to attach the Video... Really short clip but you will get the point.
Good FFB always save the day... very Short Clip from the Gt1 Mercedes CLK.... i was way hot and hit the inside rumble strip coming outta the bus stop... Watch the Driver hands on wheel and keep your eye on the throttle meter and see how easy it was for me to Counter and Throttle Steer my way out of what should have been a nasty spin!!! Never hit the Brakes or Dropped speed below 103mph..... I could clearly feel what the car was doing and what i needed to do to keep it straight and my speed up.... Its all about Good FFB feel.

Catchin the Slide 2!!! Good FFB Makes it Easy!!! Gt1 Mercedes CLK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFUJXXsRaOg)

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 22:29
LOL!!! i forgot to attach the Video... Really short clip but you will get the point.
Good FFB always save the day... very Short Clip from the Gt1 Mercedes CLK.... i was way hot and hit the inside rumble strip coming outta the bus stop... Watch the Driver hands on wheel and keep your eye on the throttle meter and see how easy it was for me to Counter and Throttle Steer my way out of what should have been a nasty spin!!! Never hit the Brakes or Dropped speed below 103mph..... I could clearly feel what the car was doing and what i needed to do to keep it straight and my speed up.... Its all about Good FFB feel.

Catchin the Slide 2!!! Good FFB Makes it Easy!!! Gt1 Mercedes CLK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFUJXXsRaOg)

awsome!
are you still using your exact settings as stated in your sheet that you refer to on your post #1 in this thread? (It's so difficult to keep track of the changes and improvements... as in every forum.)

morpwr
19-01-2016, 22:29
I morpwr ! Can you show us the final tweak of the car, to see how far it is from JS, and in what way you change it ? Except if you want to keep it secret to beat Grimey ;-)

I use yours settings except TF 85 instead of 80 and SG 77 instead of 75. It works very fine for most of the cars, with JS classic. I remove as much smoothing that I can, for some cars it's possible to do 0 smooth.

I'm ok with getting beat. Even if you use my settings against me.lol My thought has always been sms didn't pick the default values out of the well you know. Just we have been led down so many wrong paths nobody knew what to do. Well many months later because of the help of many here and a place where ideas can flow freely we are getting it. Don't get me wrong jacks are a great starting point but ive had an idea his mz and fy settings caused problems for a while as ive stated before and asked him about. Usually high speed wobble especially in open wheel or high down force cars. Anyways heres what I came up with last night.
Ruf gt3
UNLESS HERE ITS THE SAME
gain 1.0
tf 100
master 30
fx 80
fy 30
fz 60
mz 48
sop master 30
sop diff 100
Remember this was in 30 minutes and more to test my thoughts on ffb tweaks so it may not feel perfect but it proved how much grip feel was missing. Now I can play some more with the settings.

spacepadrille
19-01-2016, 22:31
Maybe I found why I'm so messed in tweaks since long time ! It seems that my FFB is slightly different each time I boot the game ! :mad: I can see that now because I'm running the same settings since one week (a world record ;)), so I can be sure that the difference I feel from one cession to another is not coming from settings.
What can I do ? A total reset ?

@morpwr : thanks for sharing, as usual :) I gonna try this, but with my changing FFB problem listed above I must admit that enthusiasm as gone a little bit :(

I can see that you have made changes also to the global settings (TF & SG), not only in the car FFB setting. Isn't it too difficult to move the globals & the in-car settings at the same tweak-time ?

GrimeyDog
19-01-2016, 22:33
I updated the settings 3 or 4 weeks ago... the RA12 is the latest PDF its on the front page.

morpwr
19-01-2016, 22:34
Maybe I found why I'm so messed in tweaks since long time ! It seems that my FFB is slightly different each time I boot the game ! :mad: I can see that now because I'm running the same settings since one week (a world record ;)), so I can be sure that the difference I feel from one cession to another is not coming from settings.
What can I do ? A total reset ?

I had to do that and the rebuild data base on the ps4 solved almost all the issues that were getting really regular

morpwr
19-01-2016, 22:36
Are there any perks for joining the darkside?

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 22:44
I updated the settings 3 or 4 weeks ago... the RA12 is the latest PDF its on the front page.

Thanks!

spacepadrille
19-01-2016, 22:44
I will start tonight by the rebuild database, thanks to remind me this option ;) If I can wait patch 8 for the total reset of the game, it's better, because I have purchased the game online, and my internet connexion is sooo bad. Thanks again for the help, morpwr !

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 23:05
I'm ok with getting beat. Even if you use my settings against me.lol My thought has always been sms didn't pick the default values out of the well you know. Just we have been led down so many wrong paths nobody knew what to do. Well many months later because of the help of many here and a place where ideas can flow freely we are getting it. Don't get me wrong jacks are a great starting point but ive had an idea his mz and fy settings caused problems for a while as ive stated before and asked him about. Usually high speed wobble especially in open wheel or high down force cars. Anyways heres what I came up with last night.
Ruf gt3
UNLESS HERE ITS THE SAME
gain 1.0
tf 100
master 30
fx 80
fy 40
fz 40
mz 48
sop master 30
sop diff 100
Remember this was in 30 minutes and more to test my thoughts on ffb tweaks so it may not feel perfect but it proved how much grip feel was missing. Now I can play some more with the settings.

...very interesting! But without knowing your RAC and/or SCHI/SCFO settings i can't see the full picture... Which i'd like to get, because your in-car settings are different to many other guys settings (also different to Grimeys'). You kind of stipulate a third approach between the party of people with relatively high tire force setting (with high spindle master scale multipliers) and the guys who prefer low tire forces, that are amplified later with the global settings.

According to my theory of "the >1 invisible headroom before getting into RAC and / or SC" i find it interesting to see that your values stay away from that ">1 headroom". Meaning, you set your in-car values in a way you may utilize RAG to your benefits, but you don't need RAC and/or SCFO to limit / compress your in-car tire forces.

is it like this? If so i assume your wheel is pretty "light" especially while going straight, and sensitive (without saturation) during cornering???

Do i remember right, that you ran some very fast laps on Watkins Glen?

morpwr
19-01-2016, 23:17
...very interesting! But without knowing your RAC and/or SCHI/SCFO settings i can't see the full picture... Which i'd like to get, because your in-car settings are different to many other guys settings (also different to Grimeys').

RAC .92
RAB .10
RAG .98
nothing special here although they may need a little readjustment now since going to the dark side.Check the post you quoted I updated the numbers.

tennenbaum
19-01-2016, 23:29
RAC .92
RAB .10
RAG .98
nothing special here although they may need a little readjustment now since going to the dark side.Check the post you quoted I updated the numbers.

just guessing for the fun of it: with your settings i assume your FFB graph in HUD telemetry looks much less "spikey" and "loaded" than Grimeys' ?
Don't get me wrong, it's not about being wrong or right, I'm just trying to collect more info to prove or disproof some of my theories.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 00:45
Are there any perks for joining the darkside?

when you Realize the True Power of the Dark Side... the Power ,the Control, the Speed, The advantage!!! it will consume you!!! Look into the light No more its Blinding you.

I call the high in Car Masters the Dark Side cause most seem very Skeptical and scared to try it... But only through Darkness is the pathway to ;)Light Revealed... find the light

SUBGTRACER
20-01-2016, 01:05
Hell yeah you get to do this to your misses when she annoys you for playing pcars..................... Perks a plenty!

225568


225569 you also get one of these in the mail :)

morpwr
20-01-2016, 01:09
just guessing for the fun of it: with your settings i assume your FFB graph in HUD telemetry looks much less "spikey" and "loaded" than Grimeys' ?
Don't get me wrong, it's not about being wrong or right, I'm just trying to collect more info to prove or disproof some of my theories.

No wrong here. Its all good. But yes you are correct about the graph. And I did ok around the glen ive gotten to 1.08.22. Damn grimey and his 1.07.lol

morpwr
20-01-2016, 01:17
Hell yeah you get to do this to your misses when she annoys you for playing pcars..................... Perks a plenty!

225568


225569 you also get one of these in the mail :)

Nice.Luckily other than telling me she would have thrown the game out the window by now shes really good about it. As long as she get to play cod once in awhile.

morpwr
20-01-2016, 01:37
Maybe I found why I'm so messed in tweaks since long time ! It seems that my FFB is slightly different each time I boot the game ! :mad: I can see that now because I'm running the same settings since one week (a world record ;)), so I can be sure that the difference I feel from one cession to another is not coming from settings.
What can I do ? A total reset ?

@morpwr : thanks for sharing, as usual :) I gonna try this, but with my changing FFB problem listed above I must admit that enthusiasm as gone a little bit :(

I can see that you have made changes also to the global settings (TF & SG), not only in the car FFB setting. Isn't it too difficult to move the globals & the in-car settings at the same tweak-time ?

Sorry forgot to answer the second part. No changing tf and sg was part of using the default values. If you try it you will see in the ffb monitor it will use more of it and actually get to the top and bottom. Remember jack made his specifically for the pc and assumes it works on consoles which it does sort of just not the same as pcs. Id love to try this on a pc and see how it is. My son has xbox and a tx wheel and even that is different its close but different than mine with the same settings. If I remember even the default tx ffb is lower on xbox.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 02:09
Sorry forgot to answer the second part. No changing tf and sg was part of using the default values. If you try it you will see in the ffb monitor it will use more of it and actually get to the top and bottom. Remember jack made his specifically for the pc and assumes it works on consoles which it does sort of just not the same as pcs. Id love to try this on a pc and see how it is. My son has xbox and a tx wheel and even that is different its close but different than mine with the same settings. If I remember even the default tx ffb is lower on xbox.

My tweek works and feels 1 to 1 PS4 and Xbox with the v2 wheel only difference is the PS4 master FFB 35 and XB1 master FFB 25

yours should work same or very similar... even the TX458 feel is pretty much the same just less power... the wheels will always have some different feel to them because the wheel firm ware is different between companys...bumps,Curbs ETC that = + 1 on a Fanatec may =.05 on a TM

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-01-2016, 02:20
RAC .92
RAB .10
RAG .98
nothing special here although they may need a little readjustment now since going to the dark side.Check the post you quoted I updated the numbers.
Im set up like you low masters but I run 70 masters last night ruf 1 07 8-- only if I could get the 70 master to feel like 30 master but still have a 70 feel. get what i'm saying you know what your30 feels like but add the heavier ffb DYNAMIC. I think you lose dynamic feel with higher masters

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 02:35
Im set up like you low masters but I run 70 masters last night ruf 1 07 8-- only if I could get the 70 master to feel like 30 master but still have a 70 feel. get what i'm saying you know what your30 feels like but add the heavier ffb DYNAMIC. I think you lose dynamic feel with higher masters

What were your in car settings???

Edit: hmmm... just poking at my settings and i lowered My Fz and SoP Diff to 50!!! Feels GREAT!!! Center of Wheel still has that great road feel but Not as Strong... Hmmmm maybe i will keep it there it will make me faster in some of the Bumpy Corners and over Rumble Strips/ Curbs because i can be Much smoother Due to a tamer Wheel:rolleyes: Hmmmm Maybe???

Edit: I am Much smoother and More Consistent in the first Down Hill corner and last L/R right before the Final straight at watkins Glen now!!! 1:06.xxx here i come!!! Ran 4 laps at 1:07.1xx Straight Because of this change!!!

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-01-2016, 02:51
What were your in car settings???

MASTER 70 26,56,105,96/98 FX SMOOTHING 20 MZ 10 ARM 1500 SOP DIFF 40 LATERL 10 BODY DAMPING 2.00 I get wheel oscillation a at 0. Same settings I use with 26/30 masters. First run with 70 master game ffb is 44 going to lower that here in a few I might like it a little more

tennenbaum
20-01-2016, 07:11
What were your in car settings???

Edit: hmmm... just poking at my settings and i lowered My Fy and SoP Diff to 50!!! Feels GREAT!!! Center of Wheel still has that great road feel but Not as Strong... Hmmmm maybe i will keep it there it will make me faster in some of the Bumpy Corners and over Rumble Strips/ Curbs because i can be Much smoother Due to a tamer Wheel:rolleyes: Hmmmm Maybe???

Edit: I am Much smoother and More Consistent in the first Down Hill corner and last L/R right before the Final straight at watkins Glen now!!! 1:06.xxx here i come!!! Ran 4 laps at 1:07.1xx Straight Because of this change!!!

wooh, that's fast! Did i get that right: You latest current settings are now

RUF 8 GT3

TF = 98
Fx = 2 (??)
Fy = 50 (before 30? or 100?)
Fz = 100
MZ =100
spindle master scale = 100
arm angle = 1500

SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 50 (before 100)
SoP master scale = 100
SoP Damp = 10

RAG .98
RAB .10
RAC .92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) = 35

BigDad
20-01-2016, 08:02
Hey G Dog i managed a 1.07.8 around The Glen short . Feels like theres so much more to have but i just couldn't find it lol. I think with ABS i could get there but will continue to try to hunt you down without lol. The Ruf was nevey my GT3 so its new to me .
BD777015

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 08:53
wooh, that's fast! Did i get that right: You latest current settings are now

RUF 8 GT3

TF = 98
Fx = 2 (??)
Fy = 50 (before 30? or 100?)
Fz = 100
MZ =100
spindle master scale = 100
arm angle = 1500

SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 50 (before 100)
SoP master scale = 100
SoP Damp = 10

RAG .98
RAB .10
RAC .92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) = 35


Edit: Fz is 50 (Fy is still 30)
Yup Thats them ... I just Lowered those 2 settings... Feels the same just Less Fight in the Wheel.

I was Just poking round with the Tweek to see How i can Help Make it Smoother for some that may want to Try it.... those 2 changes keep it Very Liveley but yet Smooth as Silk... No Feeling was Lost its just Toned down and Subtle just by changing thise 2 settings to 50.

All i really did was cut the power to those FFB forces by 50% all the Feel is Still there just 50% Lighter.

all you have to do is set the Game Master FFB for your Wheel... a Run Blazing Laps.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 10:14
Hey G Dog i managed a 1.07.8 around The Glen short . Feels like theres so much more to have but i just couldn't find it lol. I think with ABS i could get there but will continue to try to hunt you down without lol. The Ruf was nevey my GT3 so its new to me .
BD777015

Come on With it... LOL... Im working on that 1:06.xxx

Low 1:08's are actually Very Competitive Race Lap Times...
I see that the Pace s getting Quicker on some Tracks!!! I was on line Racing at Laguna Seca and the First 5 Qualification Lap times were 1:24.7xx and under!!! I got pole with a 1:24.010 but them guys were Quick... it was a Good Race and i got the Win because i was able to be More Consistent than the others... Thats what really wins is being able to be Consistant....Race pace was 1:24.5xx 7 laps No Need to push once you get out Front... Let the pack push to catch up... Thats when all the Mistakes Happen!!!

You guys gonna get Fast Real Quick with the Right FFB Tweek.... Hmmm when i Do a suspension tweek maybe i will just keep that a secre....Oh Never Mind... Aaaah h ha haaa (Evil Laugh)

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 10:47
I don't think theres much more time to get with a Stock Suspension and gears 1:06.9xx and the Stock tune is Maxed out IMO.... Everything else is tweek work.

Haiden
20-01-2016, 11:32
Im set up like you low masters but I run 70 masters last night ruf 1 07 8-- only if I could get the 70 master to feel like 30 master but still have a 70 feel. get what i'm saying you know what your30 feels like but add the heavier ffb DYNAMIC. I think you lose dynamic feel with higher masters

I think you can still get the same range, if not better, but adjusting/fine-tuning the in-car sliders becomes a little trickier. You have to test in smaller change increments and one scale at a time, because it's much easier for one scale to affect/drown out another when using high masters. Often, two or three clicks is all it takes to miss a sweet spot.

Haiden
20-01-2016, 11:45
Low speed settings do not matter (don't influence the driving at normal speeds) you can turn them off IMO.

Tested these yesterday. I only played with the saturation, and although I was able to feel a difference, there seemed to be less of a change the further down the scale I went. In fact, I ended up just testing between 0.95 -1.00, because everything below 0.95 felt pretty much the same. The main difference I felt was how the wheel handled understeer, felt lighter, quicker slip, with lower settings. Giving each setting a decent run of laps, I didn't see much difference in laps times, but did find it harder to push the car with the lower saturation settings. I thought the saturation might just be making it easier to overdrive the car, so I gave each setting 10 laps, and then checked tire wear, tire temps, and brake wear. Surprisingly, the higher saturation (1.00) allowed for better tire management--heat and wear were a both a bit lower. So, I'm just leaving Saturation at 1.00 for now.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 11:45
Im set up like you low masters but I run 70 masters last night ruf 1 07 8-- only if I could get the 70 master to feel like 30 master but still have a 70 feel. get what i'm saying you know what your30 feels like but add the heavier ffb DYNAMIC. I think you lose dynamic feel with higher masters

I dont think that you will get the Same feel with 30 Masters and 70 masters.

30 Masters your cutting/Limiting the FFB signl at the Source... IMO nothing above 30 will pass through them without being compressed.


70 Masters your Setting the Max power and adjusting the Strength of the Signals to the Level you want to feel them.

If you Really think about it... All the Tweek methods are Really about how or where you are going to get or set the FFB Effects power that you want to feel.

TF =Constant Wheel Weight

in Car Masters = The FFB Effects Strength, Curbs, Bumps, Rumble Strips Etc.

Game Master FFB sets Final at the Wheel Power Level.

Keep it simple just treat each part of he FFB system as Volume Controls.... Turn each part up until you get a Good Blend.... Then Fine tune it with the in car Settings + or - to bring out what you want feels most... Then Readjust your Game Mster FFB if Needed for Final at wheel power Level.

Edit: The More i just play with the sliders and Get Good Results the further get away from the Math when it comes to PCars.

Ex: Reducing My FZ and SoP Lat from 100 to 50 all i really did was cut the Power of those FFB forces by 50%... All the Feel is Still there just Lighter and Tamer. Now if i the forces are Balanced Right but everything still feels to Strong for you then Simply Reduce the Masters until its at the Desired FFB Strength you like....
TRY IT AND SEE!!!

The Global settings are the Most important because they shape and set the overal Feel of your FFB... Global settings is what makes your FFB Sharp Lively and very Active or Dull and Slow acting.

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-01-2016, 13:23
yeah I have noticed things I change now on the t500. I really could not tell much difference with my gt3rs imo but its getting there.

and grimey I was on a 1 07 391 but lost it in the last corner lol just remember 1 07s are not going to be race pace

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 14:11
yeah I have noticed things I change now on the t500. I really could not tell much difference with my gt3rs imo but its getting there.

and grimey I was on a 1 07 391 but lost it in the last corner lol just remember 1 07s are not going to be race pace

1:07.6xx Race Pace Easy!!! When you get used to it will be just the Natural pace... it seems Hard Now because your Focused on Chasing a Time... its like that for Me also... I run My best time when im just in the Zone Focused on just running Good Lines then when i Realize im beating My best Times i some how Most of the Time Screw it up... LOL

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-01-2016, 16:28
I think you can still get the same range, if not better, but adjusting/fine-tuning the in-car sliders becomes a little trickier. You have to test in smaller change increments and one scale at a time, because it's much easier for one scale to affect/drown out another when using high masters. Often, two or three clicks is all it takes to miss a sweet spot.

And tennenbaum tells us more on RA gain and soft clipper would be nice I Can't wait i'm SO EXCITED LOL. I think you can to but getting it all too work on all tracks and all cars is hard to do. You might just have to make a slight change to FFB calibration sometimes SO IF SMS would let us have calibration for trrack and car would be nice . Your going to run the same calibration for most cars tracks but there is times you need to adjust it IMO

And pcars2 they say we will be able to adjust calibration anytime it only needs to be done offline if that is online to could be a issue far as lag etc.

We should start a thread call it TENNENBAUM THIS IS HOW IT WORKS LOL

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 19:47
Has any 1 else down loaded 8.0 yet???
I saw the update and Deleted Every thing as usual, Reinstalled PCars and its updating to 8.0 Now... Havent played it yet i had to run out for a bit.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 20:31
After Simply turning My "FZ" & "SoP Lat" from 100 Down to 50 and Still Having the Same Great Feel... All the FFB Forces are still there just with 50% Less Power!!! I have Gone Deeper into the Dark Side and More than Ever Strongly Believe that the Sliders are to be Treated as Volume Controls.

To get a Pure Feel of the Car FFB I think the First step to tweeking would be to Reset the Global to Stock Settings, Turn the in Car Masters to 100 and adjust the in Fy,Fx, SoP, Etc for Best feel from a Low # ex: 20 and Go up until you get Good Feel with out Clipping, Then Go to the Globals to Refine and Shape the FFB to your liking with Relative and Scoop Settings.... Then and only then should you go to the Full/Half Clip settings to further difine your FFB Feel...Only if Needed... These settings are still Black Majic a Very Dark art not enough is known about them so you never know what your conjuring up.

Dead Zone, PWM are Very wheel dependent settings adjust according to your wheel.

Smoothing, Damping i Never use them because they kill the Very Forces you are trying to Feel... With the Proper Tweek i don't think you Need those settings.

IMO the in car FFB settings were just thrown together for General Feel and Have No Rhyme or Reason... There is No Mathematical Formula that applys to them... as Morpwr pointed out You can Corrupt the Pure Feel of the Car and end up with Canned FFB effects when you start making Drastic Changes.

Haiden
20-01-2016, 21:38
IMO the in car FFB settings were just thrown together for General Feel and Have No Rhyme or Reason... There is No Mathematical Formula that applys to them... as Morpwr pointed out You can Corrupt the Pure Feel of the Car and end up with Canned FFB effects when you start making Drastic Changes.

What do you mean when you say, thrown together? By default, the in-car scales are all set to 100. Isn't that just pure rack forces? The mathematical formula would be in the physics engine, leaving each car's individual mechanical configuration to then interact with the fully scaled spindle? The Master Scale setting seems like the only real arbitrary value. The defaults don't actually feel that bad. Not great, but I think too good to be random.

morpwr
20-01-2016, 21:47
Has any 1 else down loaded 8.0 yet???
I saw the update and Deleted Every thing as usual, Reinstalled PCars and its updating to 8.0 Now... Havent played it yet i had to run out for a bit.
Downloading now after fresh install. No screwing around here.lol I see you lowered mz. Ive been thinking everyone has been setting it too high for quite a while. I played with this a while back but got sidetracked with the wheel. I tried doing it the way timo suggested for mz I think that's what I feel in jacks at mid corner the mz is wrong and you get a big change in ffb like that. When mz is right you just turn and that force doesn't change as it shouldn't when its wrong you get a lump. Did you notice your wheel feels smoother with it turned down? Ive found its real easy to make the t300 feel gritty.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 21:57
Downloading now after fresh install. No screwing around here.lol I see you lowered mz. Ive been thinking everyone has been setting it too high for quite a while. I played with this a while back but got sidetracked with the wheel. I tried doing it the way timo suggested for mz I think that's what I feel in jacks at mid corner the mz is wrong and you get a big change in ffb like that. When mz is right you just turn and that force doesn't change as it shouldn't when its wrong you get a lump. Did you notice your wheel feels smoother with it turned down? Ive found its real easy to make the t300 feel gritty.

I lowered the "Fz" and "SoP lat" for me with My tweek and the v2 Wheel 100 Mz Feels Great.

Fz Lowered the Curb,Bump, rumble strip forces by 50%, SoP Lat i just Lowered because i always keep these settings set at the same level.

morpwr
20-01-2016, 22:00
What do you mean when you say, thrown together? By default, the in-car scales are all set to 100. Isn't that just pure rack forces? The mathematical formula would be in the physics engine, leaving each car's individual mechanical configuration to then interact with the fully scaled spindle? The Master Scale setting seems like the only real arbitrary value. The defaults don't actually feel that bad. Not great, but I think too good to be random.

Ive been saying that for a while sms didn't pull those numbers ut of the air and look at most of our wheel settings. They aren't far from defaults, Now we just need to figure out the correct way to setup the car ffb now that we know we cant use the same stuff as the pc guys. Not saying anybodys way is wrong. But i feel there is a lot more left to get out of it if we get it right. Probably some middle ground on setups. I understand what jack was trying to do with his by balancing the forces but they are based off of things we on consoles cant do.

morpwr
20-01-2016, 22:05
I lowered the "Fz" and "SoP lat" for me with My tweek and the v2 Wheel 100 Mz Feels Great.

Fz Lowered the Curb,Bump, rumble strip forces by 50%, SoP Lat i just Lowered because i always keep these settings set at the same level.

That's right you run the fy real low though right? Downloaded. Well we will see how the new patch works.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 22:08
What do you mean when you say, thrown together? By default, the in-car scales are all set to 100. Isn't that just pure rack forces? The mathematical formula would be in the physics engine, leaving each car's individual mechanical configuration to then interact with the fully scaled spindle? The Master Scale setting seems like the only real arbitrary value. The defaults don't actually feel that bad. Not great, but I think too good to be random.

IMO they were just thrown together to Give a general feel, That's why they were all just set to 100 and Not put together in a way that would give best feel, The 26 Master was just set in Place IMO because that's where they set it and even though fy,Fx,Etc: was set to 100 you could use stock settings and not clipping.

If those settings had any Rhyme or reason they would feel better than they do at default in car settings... JMO

Edit: also if there were any blue print on how to set up the FFB they would have set up at least 1 car at Pcars launch for us so we could know how it was to be done. Now the funny thing is even after many downloadable car pack 20 i believe and 8 major game patch updates they have not even sent us a car that has been tuned by them(SMS) to show how its supposed to be done... POW i Rest my case...LOL

Haiden
20-01-2016, 22:15
Ive found its real easy to make the t300 feel gritty.

That's the feeling I've been trying to eliminate. I know Mz is the culprit, but I've been trying to find a happy medium. Lower Mz too much and the wheel feels a little too smooth, numb even. It doesn't feel quite as gritty on the CSW-v2 as it did on the T300, though. But it's still there. I'm running Mz at 94 right now. When I was running it at 68, I don't recall the grinding. I'll play around tonight to see where the threshold is why my new globals.

tennenbaum
20-01-2016, 22:22
Tested these yesterday. I only played with the saturation, and although I was able to feel a difference, there seemed to be less of a change the further down the scale I went. In fact, I ended up just testing between 0.95 -1.00, because everything below 0.95 felt pretty much the same. The main difference I felt was how the wheel handled understeer, felt lighter, quicker slip, with lower settings. Giving each setting a decent run of laps, I didn't see much difference in laps times, but did find it harder to push the car with the lower saturation settings. I thought the saturation might just be making it easier to overdrive the car, so I gave each setting 10 laps, and then checked tire wear, tire temps, and brake wear. Surprisingly, the higher saturation (1.00) allowed for better tire management--heat and wear were a both a bit lower. So, I'm just leaving Saturation at 1.00 for now.

Good to get a substantial feedback based on solid tests.

I was under the impression of some posts that argued (reasonably to some extend as far as could judge) that the sim physic engine uses "table" values for lower speeds to feed the wheel via an extra separate FX channel. An extra channel that is offered by the wheels interfaces for "canned" effects. In other words, the STM http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/ might be not capable to computate correctly at lower speeds. It seems to be a known issue among sim coders. It's not a specific issue of pCars physics engine.

As great as Brian explains it, it's quite 'hardcore'... If the interview doesn't tickle your braincells enough, you might get some further thrills from taking a closer look at the second link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GQCZgCNw8
http://phors.locost7.info/contents.htm

Even if because of such calamities low speed FFB might be kept out of the STM calculations due to good reasons, it's very possible that the low speed settings "crawl" into the FFB and sim calculations and tire management intendedly or unintendedly.

After your tests my statement that you refer to definitely needs a revision.

tennenbaum
20-01-2016, 22:35
Edit: Fz is 50 (Fy is still 30)
Yup Thats them ... I just Lowered those 2 settings... Feels the same just Less Fight in the Wheel.

I was Just poking round with the Tweek to see How i can Help Make it Smoother for some that may want to Try it.... those 2 changes keep it Very Liveley but yet Smooth as Silk... No Feeling was Lost its just Toned down and Subtle just by changing thise 2 settings to 50.

All i really did was cut the power to those FFB forces by 50% all the Feel is Still there just 50% Lighter.

all you have to do is set the Game Master FFB for your Wheel... a Run Blazing Laps.

I hope you don't mind that i revised the table according to your post. Your settings deserve to be spread with its correct latest values. :-)

RUF 8 GT3

TF = 98
Fx = 2
Fy = 30
Fz = 50 (before 100)
MZ =100
spindle master scale = 100
arm angle = 1500

SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 50 (before 100)
SoP master scale = 100
SoP Damp = 10

RAG .98
RAB .10
RAC .92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) = 35

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 22:56
LOL...Thanx i been meaning to do that;)

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 23:05
is there a thread with 8.0 release notes??? im looking and cant find it.

ports
20-01-2016, 23:13
is there a thread with 8.0 release notes??? im looking and cant find it.

Here you go mate.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44179-Project-CARS-PS4-Patch-8-0-Release-Notes

morpwr
20-01-2016, 23:16
That's the feeling I've been trying to eliminate. I know Mz is the culprit, but I've been trying to find a happy medium. Lower Mz too much and the wheel feels a little too smooth, numb even. It doesn't feel quite as gritty on the CSW-v2 as it did on the T300, though. But it's still there. I'm running Mz at 94 right now. When I was running it at 68, I don't recall the grinding. I'll play around tonight to see where the threshold is why my new globals.

Haiden,
Does the v2 have a default ffb value in game. Like the t300 is 75.

GrimeyDog
20-01-2016, 23:28
I hope you don't mind that i revised the table according to your post. Your settings deserve to be spread with its correct latest values. :-)

RUF 8 GT3

TF = 98
Fx = 2
Fy = 30
Fz = 50 (before 100)
MZ =50 (before 100)
spindle master scale = 100
arm angle = 1500

SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 50 (before 100)
SoP master scale = 100
SoP Damp = 10

RAG .98
RAB .10
RAC .92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) = 35



Have you tried it with the lower settings yet??? Im testing it with 8.0 now... sooo far Nothing Needs to be adjusted:yes::victorious:

You can still abuse the tires in 8.0 with No Tire Heat issues:mad:


Can you edit your Post and Add MZ =50 (before 100)



set up is very flexible 50Fz, 50 SoP lat, 50 Mz feels good Also it all depend on how much of these forces you want to feel... all FFB Feel is still there just at 50% strength...wheel feels good is lively but also much tamer:yes:

tennenbaum
20-01-2016, 23:30
And tennenbaum tells us more on RA gain and soft clipper would be nice I Can't wait i'm SO EXCITED LOL. I think you can to but getting it all too work on all tracks and all cars is hard to do. You might just have to make a slight change to FFB calibration sometimes SO IF SMS would let us have calibration for trrack and car would be nice . Your going to run the same calibration for most cars tracks but there is times you need to adjust it IMO

And pcars2 they say we will be able to adjust calibration anytime it only needs to be done offline if that is online to could be a issue far as lag etc.

We should start a thread call it TENNENBAUM THIS IS HOW IT WORKS LOL

you asked for it - so you get it ;)

green = your steering without RAG.
blue = what RAG does: differential equation first degree
grey = green plus blue, therefore what you feel when you use RAG

i made a circle around the area of the grey curve where you can see best, what RAG does to your FFB: it literally differentiates FFB forces in a way that it does not only emphasizes the changes of FFB, but also vitalizes the static moments (or saturations).

In other words: RAG spices up the FFB, like taking off the shoes walking bar foot on gravel. It's a kind of simple but very elegant and IMO genius idea to make FFB so much more lively on a logical basis (not canned).

You may get a better understanding of how it works, when you take into consideration that blue (RAG) is added/subtracted to green not constantly but every milliseconds dynamically, and also taken out again in milliseconds depending on your RAB settings.You can see the steps in my drawing. That is actually what the equation does many times per second...

When you sink your teeth a little bit more into it: In the equations lies the reason why you can influence with RAG and RAB (and somehow RAC) the "snake" and the "spikes"...

Last not least: My conclusion might be totally, completely, and utmost wrong. There are many other ways the devs can achieve that kind of pepping up the FFB experience...

225652

tennenbaum
21-01-2016, 00:08
IMO they were just thrown together to Give a general feel, That's why they were all just set to 100 and Not put together in a way that would give best feel, The 26 Master was just set in Place IMO because that's where they set it and even though fy,Fx,Etc: was set to 100 you could use stock settings and not clipping.

If those settings had any Rhyme or reason they better than they do at default in car settings... JMO

yep. general feel. 26 and 100 were just balanced in a way that you don't get clipping.

the longer i look at the FFB system and the freedom the devs gave us, the more i feel the devs made a great but risky decision: They followed a pretty pure honest philosophy: They "opened" the "spots" in the computation paths where they had to "tweak and twist" manually as well anyway, because in each sim there have to be individual subjective "weightings" by humans. So instead of using their own subjective an erratic assumptions to pre-define the settings per default, they decided to leave that to the players, under the premise, that each person's idea about how the "right" FFB feeling should feel like must be a subjective feel "per se". They've been also under economical pressure - who of the team has time to tweak all the cars, even without having the chance to know how all these cars feel in reality. I say it's a pure and honest philosophy because in it's core and true nature a sim is a not-absolute, but relative, experience. It's also honest IMO in so far that sims who pretend that they can really simulate hundreds of different cars can't be right. By offering 100/100/100/100 SMS is giving us (on purpose or not) a hint how to "use" the sim in ways that please us.