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morpwr
21-01-2016, 00:49
Have you tried it with the lower settings yet??? Im testing it with 8.0 now... sooo far Nothing Needs to be adjusted:yes::victorious:

You can still abuse the tires in 8.0 with No Tire Heat issues:mad:


Can you edit your Post and Add MZ =50 (before 100)



set up is very flexible 50Fz, 50 SoP lat, 50 Mz feels good Also it all depend on how much of these forces you want to feel... all FFB Feel is still there just at 50% strength...wheel feels good is lively but also much tamer:yes:

Grimey. they do at least get hot and stay there in a race without cooling off. I just tried one. I don't know what all the guys are complaining about with lack of grip. I tried the clio and its way better than before. Anyways did you try with the old settings because it seems stronger to me. Maybe its a t300 thing because I'm not the only one that thinks so.

GrimeyDog
21-01-2016, 00:58
IMO they were just thrown together to Give a general feel, That's why they were all just set to 100 and Not put together in a way that would give best feel, The 26 Master was just set in Place IMO because that's where they set it and even though fy,Fx,Etc: was set to 100 you could use stock settings and not clipping.

If those settings had any Rhyme or reason they would feel better than they do at default in car settings... JMO

Edit: also if there were any blue print on how to set up the FFB they would have set up at least 1 car at Pcars launch for us so we could know how it was to be done. Now the funny thing is even after many downloadable car pack 20 i believe and 8 major game patch updates they have not even sent us a car that has been tuned by them(SMS) to show how its supposed to be done... POW i Rest my case...LOL


yep. general feel. 26 and 100 were just balanced in a way that you don't get clipping.

the longer i look at the FFB system and the freedom the devs gave us, the more i feel the devs made a great but risky decision: They followed a pretty pure honest philosophy: They "opened" the "spots" in the computation paths where they had to "tweak and twist" manually as well anyway, because in each sim there have to be individual subjective "weightings" by humans. So instead of using their own subjective an erratic assumptions to pre-define the settings per default, they decided to leave that to the players, under the premise, that each person's idea about how the "right" FFB feeling should feel like must be a subjective feel "per se". They've been also under economical pressure - who of the team has time to tweak all the cars, even without having the chance to know how all these cars feel in reality. I say it's a pure and honest philosophy because in it's core and true nature a sim is a not-absolute, but relative, experience. It's also honest IMO in so far that sims who pretend that they can really simulate hundreds of different cars can't be right. By offering 100/100/100/100 SMS is giving us (on purpose or not) a hint how to "use" the sim in ways that please us.


Case and point.

GrimeyDog
21-01-2016, 01:04
Grimey. they do at least get hot and stay there in a race without cooling off. I just tried one. I don't know what all the guys are complaining about with lack of grip. I tried the clio and its way better than before. Anyways did you try with the old settings because it seems stronger to me. Maybe its a t300 thing because I'm not the only one that thinks so.

its a tad bit stronger now because you have more Grip Feel... if the cars FFB still feels good and its just stronger/heavier than you want I would reduce the game master FFB by 5. That's what i had to do for the XB1 last update and every thing went right back to the Norm.

BigDad
21-01-2016, 01:20
Congrats on hitting the tonne in forum pages G Dog .

By the way i finally got the low 107's around The Glen 107.186 , fastest Ruf on leader board.
It's all about the right left right chacaine then the big right sweeper .
225662
Sorry bout the pic . LOL

morpwr
21-01-2016, 01:35
Congrats on hitting the tonne in forum pages G Dog .

By the way i finally got the low 107's around The Glen 107.186 , fastest Ruf on leader board.
It's all about the right left right chacaine then the big right sweeper .
225662
Sorry bout the pic . LOL

You guys are killing me. I gotta practice more.lol

BigDad
21-01-2016, 02:15
Grimey Dog asked me to post my Fanatec 911 GT2 wheel settings

TF 98
PWM 0.00
PWMS 0.00
WPS 0.04
DRR 0.11
DRF 0.01
Linkages all stock
RAG 0.98
RAB 0.12
RAC 0.92
S.K 0.68
S.R 0.16
No clipping
MSS 0.10
LSSC 0.50
LSSS 0.74
S G 100
In game ffb is at 25 .
And Mr Jack Spade 66 incar .
Hope that helps some =)

Updated these
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163

GrimeyDog
21-01-2016, 02:40
I Re worked some settings so the FFB Effects and "Mz" are not as strong try these and let me know what you think:yes: Feels really good full Dynamic FFB range with Milder FFB effects strength.

spindle master scale = 100
Fx = 2
Fy = 30
Fz = 50 (before 100)
Mz =50 (before 100)

arm angle = 1500 stock what ever is per car don't change it!!!

SoP master scale = 100
SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 50 (before 100)

SoP Damp = 0


TF = 100 (Before 98)

RAG =1.00 (Before 98)
RAB =.12
RAC =.92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25 or what ever you like only affects wheel at main menu
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) CSW v2 =35 other wheels set per your wheel.

Thanx tennenbaum for typing these setting in on the post:cool:

gotdirt410sprintcar
21-01-2016, 02:44
I think gain lower and clamp higher is going to be the way to go but clamp always higher than gain maybe????

spacepadrille
21-01-2016, 06:40
Hi guys ! I did a total fresh install, and wow the difference between corrupted game patch 7 and fresh one patch 8 is HUGE ! So last night I was tweaking again, and yes the grip is sooo better than before, but I have great difficulties to obtain something remembering me the brake feeling I had before. Whe I brake hard, I can feel some, but for the "normal" braking area I feel nothing but the grip at the end of braking. All other forces are well shaped, I use morpwr's last base tune for the ruf. And you guys, can you feel correctly the braking forces ?

morpwr
21-01-2016, 11:00
I think gain lower and clamp higher is going to be the way to go but clamp always higher than gain maybe????

I found you have to carefull with clamp it will get to a point it grabs the wheel for a split second. Its like everything else in here theres a tradeoff.

morpwr
21-01-2016, 11:03
Hi guys ! I did a total fresh install, and wow the difference between corrupted game patch 7 and fresh one patch 8 is HUGE ! So last night I was tweaking again, and yes the grip is sooo better than before, but I have great difficulties to obtain something remembering me the brake feeling I had before. Whe I brake hard, I can feel some, but for the "normal" braking area I feel nothing but the grip at the end of braking. All other forces are well shaped, I use morpwr's last base tune for the ruf. And you guys, can you feel correctly the braking forces ?

Try moving the rac up or down a one at a time and see how it feels.

GrimeyDog
21-01-2016, 11:17
I think gain lower and clamp higher is going to be the way to go but clamp always higher than gain maybe????


The RAC controls the FFB Effects power Level input.
In this Video the RAC 50 was used Note How the Graph stays to the Middle (50%) of the Box... When i Tested i used 50,70,90 for Each Value tested the FFB power and Graph line moved up the box relevant to the % of the # Being tested Ex: 90 = 90% Power/graph @90% of FFB box total Volume.


https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM

Haiden
21-01-2016, 11:48
Haiden,
Does the v2 have a default ffb value in game. Like the t300 is 75.

The default is 50.


Good to get a substantial feedback based on solid tests.

I was under the impression of some posts that argued (reasonably to some extend as far as could judge) that the sim physic engine uses "table" values for lower speeds to feed the wheel via an extra separate FX channel. An extra channel that is offered by the wheels interfaces for "canned" effects. In other words, the STM http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/ might be not capable to computate correctly at lower speeds. It seems to be a known issue among sim coders. It's not a specific issue of pCars physics engine.


Even if because of such calamities low speed FFB might be kept out of the STM calculations due to good reasons, it's very possible that the low speed settings "crawl" into the FFB and sim calculations and tire management intendedly or unintendedly.

After your tests my statement that you refer to definitely needs a revision.

Interesting. I didn't know that about the low range forces. I wasn't expecting to find such a small degree of difference in feel between extreme values. This could explain that. The tire management benefits of the higher setting were nominal, though. Definitely not enough to influence a decision on the setting, at least not between 0.90-1.00. At that point, it's just a matter of personal feel. Some may like the lighter understeer feel.


yep. general feel. 26 and 100 were just balanced in a way that you don't get clipping.

the longer i look at the FFB system and the freedom the devs gave us, the more i feel the devs made a great but risky decision: They followed a pretty pure honest philosophy: They "opened" the "spots" in the computation paths where they had to "tweak and twist" manually as well anyway, because in each sim there have to be individual subjective "weightings" by humans. So instead of using their own subjective an erratic assumptions to pre-define the settings per default, they decided to leave that to the players, under the premise, that each person's idea about how the "right" FFB feeling should feel like must be a subjective feel "per se". They've been also under economical pressure - who of the team has time to tweak all the cars, even without having the chance to know how all these cars feel in reality. I say it's a pure and honest philosophy because in it's core and true nature a sim is a not-absolute, but relative, experience. It's also honest IMO in so far that sims who pretend that they can really simulate hundreds of different cars can't be right. By offering 100/100/100/100 SMS is giving us (on purpose or not) a hint how to "use" the sim in ways that please us.

If SMS tuned each car's in-car FFB separately, wouldn't that basically be a return to the Jack Spade logic? Changing the in-car settings for each car would be like changing the physics of the real world to make each car feel different. SMS gave us the option to shape the feel to our liking, but why would they need to do anything other than set the Spindle values at full? SMS is the developer. They did do their custom tuning, it's the Seta Tire Model. They set the spindle to 100 to let each car's specific mechanical configuration deliver a unique feel, acting through the tire model--pure forces. If they set different Spindle values for each car, I don't see how that would work, with regard to realistic simulation experience. I think they set the values at 100, because, as developers, they were tuning at the other end of the spectrum, creating the tire model. The fact that SMS hasn't released a car with a different default FFB tune, doesn't actually prove anything. In fact, it makes more sense that they would keep releasing them the way they've always released cars, with fully scaled spindle values. That is SMS' tune. The PCars defaults may not be ideal for everyone, but SMS' default values feel better than Forza 5 or 6's and has more dynamic range than F1 2015's. I don't think that's a result of them just throwing values together without rhyme or reason. We're only talking about it, because, unlike other games, they gave us the ability to shape it to our liking. If they'd locked us out of it, we'd be driving the cars with their defaults, and still have better FFB than other console racers. Anyway...just my thoughts. We'll never really know, so I'm not sure it even matters.

SGETI
21-01-2016, 15:05
Updated FFB graph with latest changes and additions. Also included an In Car FFB setting below the tuners name for those who use a universal setting for every car.

If you notice any errors, let me know and I will make the corrections in a timely manner.

Thanks for all who continue to pursue this FFB discussion. Not that i 100% of the time understand all the information, I at least try to read (and in most cases reread a few times) to try and educate myself on what needs to be adjusted to give me my desired FFB settings. FFB settings are a personnel choice and this thread gives us all the information needed to make an educated decision as to which direction each of us take. We may not all agree on the best FFB settings, however we do agree to discuss in a friendly enviroment that encourages dialog and testing, which will aid to everyone's benefit. Thanks again for all the info.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Haiden
21-01-2016, 16:15
Hi guys ! I did a total fresh install, and wow the difference between corrupted game patch 7 and fresh one patch 8 is HUGE ! So last night I was tweaking again, and yes the grip is sooo better than before, but I have great difficulties to obtain something remembering me the brake feeling I had before. Whe I brake hard, I can feel some, but for the "normal" braking area I feel nothing but the grip at the end of braking. All other forces are well shaped, I use morpwr's last base tune for the ruf. And you guys, can you feel correctly the braking forces ?

I'm going to try this tonight. I've been hesitant to do a complete reinstall, because I haven't had nearly as many problems as others. I did my first install on PS4 right after 4.0 came out. Since then, I've just done a full reset after each patch, but never a complete reinstall. Curious to know if it makes any difference, since I was pretty stable before. I hope it doesn't create any issues--keeping my fingers crossed. :)

morpwr
21-01-2016, 18:13
I'm going to try this tonight. I've been hesitant to do a complete reinstall, because I haven't had nearly as many problems as others. I did my first install on PS4 right after 4.0 came out. Since then, I've just done a full reset after each patch, but never a complete reinstall. Curious to know if it makes any difference, since I was pretty stable before. I hope it doesn't create any issues--keeping my fingers crossed. :)

So far so good here after and I haven't had many of the issues people complain about. Have you tried using the default 50 to setup your wheel? Ive found the default values work really well now granted I'm using a t300. I think somewhere along the line things have been changed without mention because they definitely didn't feel like they do now. I'm starting to think the tire model has way more than I realized to do with it.

Haiden
21-01-2016, 19:03
So far so good here after and I haven't had many of the issues people complain about. Have you tried using the default 50 to setup your wheel? Ive found the default values work really well now granted I'm using a t300. I think somewhere along the line things have been changed without mention because they definitely didn't feel like they do now. I'm starting to think the tire model has way more than I realized to do with it.

Good to hear. I'm definitely going to give it a shot tonight. I did try the default FF=50. When I got my Clubsport back in December, I reset everything and started tuning from scratch. I used the default globals for a couple weeks, testing them with the default in-car settings. They weren't bad, at all--felt pretty good. Then I started tweaking my in-car settings and found that, at least for the CSW-v2, a lower FF setting results in a less saturated wheel, weight-wise, which allows more detail to come through. I have FF set to 35 now. But once I settle on an in-car setting, I'm going to go back through the globals, comparing what I've changed to the default values, just to make sure I didn't swallow any placebos along the way.

GrimeyDog
21-01-2016, 20:41
How is every 1 finding 8.0 update?

spacepadrille
21-01-2016, 22:12
How is every 1 finding 8.0 update?

For me, after my first total reset, it is difficult to compare. Everything seems to be better and more reliable (I have the same feeling before and after a reboot for example ;-)), except that I cannot manage to find a setting with a descent brake feeling. I like when the pressure of my foot on the pedal is correlated with something in the wheel. Here and now, nothing :-( But I'm tweaking madly and if I find something I will post it.

tennenbaum
21-01-2016, 22:33
The default is 50.



Interesting. I didn't know that about the low range forces. I wasn't expecting to find such a small degree of difference in feel between extreme values. This could explain that. The tire management benefits of the higher setting were nominal, though. Definitely not enough to influence a decision on the setting, at least not between 0.90-1.00. At that point, it's just a matter of personal feel. Some may like the lighter understeer feel.



If SMS tuned each car's in-car FFB separately, wouldn't that basically be a return to the Jack Spade logic? Changing the in-car settings for each car would be like changing the physics of the real world to make each car feel different. SMS gave us the option to shape the feel to our liking, but why would they need to do anything other than set the Spindle values at full? SMS is the developer. They did do their custom tuning, it's the Seta Tire Model. They set the spindle to 100 to let each car's specific mechanical configuration deliver a unique feel, acting through the tire model--pure forces. If they set different Spindle values for each car, I don't see how that would work, with regard to realistic simulation experience. I think they set the values at 100, because, as developers, they were tuning at the other end of the spectrum, creating the tire model. The fact that SMS hasn't released a car with a different default FFB tune, doesn't actually prove anything. In fact, it makes more sense that they would keep releasing them the way they've always released cars, with fully scaled spindle values. That is SMS' tune. The PCars defaults may not be ideal for everyone, but SMS' default values feel better than Forza 5 or 6's and has more dynamic range than F1 2015's. I don't think that's a result of them just throwing values together without rhyme or reason. We're only talking about it, because, unlike other games, they gave us the ability to shape it to our liking. If they'd locked us out of it, we'd be driving the cars with their defaults, and still have better FFB than other console racers. Anyway...just my thoughts. We'll never really know, so I'm not sure it even matters.

very good points. and indeed we might be caught and blindfolded a bit in our own selective perspective, that we misinterprete the freedom to tweak what is already very good by default. and indeed the devs come from the STM perspective side, and coming from there, why should they offer by default the 100/100/100/100 Fxyzm if they thought it is rubbish. especially when they could have set any other Fxyzm weighting "behind" the 100/100/100/100 setting without us even knowing. so i guess i should give the default settings a fair try and rethink some assumptions.

just one thing i didn't get: you say spindle 100. but isn't it 26 by default?

morpwr
21-01-2016, 22:59
How is every 1 finding 8.0 update?

I'm loving it! I really hope people don't start whining and sms changes it again. I'm not sure if its as fast as before could just be me but you can feel everything. Very obvious when youre skidding now besides the sound.lol Its becoming obvious to me how important the tire model is.

morpwr
21-01-2016, 23:10
very good points. and indeed we might be caught and blindfolded a bit in our own selective perspective, that we misinterprete the freedom to tweak what is already very good by default. and indeed the devs come from the STM perspective side, and coming from there, why should they offer by default the 100/100/100/100 Fxyzm if they thought it is rubbish. especially when they could have set any other Fxyzm weighting "behind" the 100/100/100/100 setting without us even knowing. so i guess i should give the default settings a fair try and rethink some assumptions.

just one thing i didn't get: you say spindle 100. but isn't it 26 by default?

That is when it got easy for me I went back to defaults and started over. Im sure most of us tried them first and went what the hell? Things have definitely changed. I think part of the problem was we were allowed to have all this freedom suddenly and our brains went into overload. Besides the fact we all know at this point how easy it is to get way off and chase yourself in circles with tweaking. All of us wanted this to be great right from the beginning and it was sort of but had a lot of issues. I think more than we actually knew. But here we are today with something that is getting really good and a whole lot easier thanks to the guys on here and sms. Cant forget them for all the hard work and listening to us complain.

Haiden
21-01-2016, 23:34
For me, after my first total reset, it is difficult to compare. Everything seems to be better and more reliable (I have the same feeling before and after a reboot for example ;-)), except that I cannot manage to find a setting with a descent brake feeling. I like when the pressure of my foot on the pedal is correlated with something in the wheel. Here and now, nothing :-( But I'm tweaking madly and if I find something I will post it.

Try raising Fx. That's the scale that is supposed to affect brake feel. The problem is that it's easily drowned out by other forces, especially Fy. Which kind of reasons with the description below. I can't remember where I found this, but I saved it.

Fx - longitudinal force. If one wheel has more longitudinal grip than the other when braking, this extra grip is felt as the FFB pulling in the direction of that wheel.

With my current settings, I can feel the braking feel get stronger or weaker when I raise/lower Fx. Try lowering the other scales, starting with Fy, until you get the feeling back. Then you can start raising them slowly to find the threshold.


very good points. and indeed we might be caught and blindfolded a bit in our own selective perspective, that we misinterprete the freedom to tweak what is already very good by default. and indeed the devs come from the STM perspective side, and coming from there, why should they offer by default the 100/100/100/100 Fxyzm if they thought it is rubbish. especially when they could have set any other Fxyzm weighting "behind" the 100/100/100/100 setting without us even knowing. so i guess i should give the default settings a fair try and rethink some assumptions.

just one thing i didn't get: you say spindle 100. but isn't it 26 by default?

I meant the rack forces going through it--FX, Fy, Fz, and Mz. I always call it the spindle for some reason when I'm rambling. :)


That is when it got easy for me I went back to defaults and started over. Im sure most of us tried them first and went what the hell? Things have definitely changed. I think part of the problem was we were allowed to have all this freedom suddenly and our brains went into overload. Besides the fact we all know at this point how easy it is to get way off and chase yourself in circles with tweaking. All of us wanted this to be great right from the beginning and it was sort of but had a lot of issues. I think more than we actually knew. But here we are today with something that is getting really good and a whole lot easier thanks to the guys on here and sms. Cant forget them for all the hard work and listening to us complain.

I think that's true. A mix of there being a lot of issues in the beginning, and also being given the keys to poke around under the hood. The problems and poor feel early on made people think deep custom tuning was necessary to enjoy the game. And once you start down that path, you just keep going, because it was working. I didn't realize how good the defaults had actually become until I got my CSW-v2 and started tuning from scratch.

spacepadrille
21-01-2016, 23:54
Try raising Fx. That's the scale that is supposed to affect brake feel. The problem is that it's easily drowned out by other forces, especially Fy. Which kind of reasons with the description below. I can't remember where I found this, but I saved it.

Fx - longitudinal force. If one wheel has more longitudinal grip than the other when braking, this extra grip is felt as the FFB pulling in the direction of that wheel.

With my current settings, I can feel the braking feel get stronger or weaker when I raise/lower Fx. Try lowering the other scales, starting with Fy, until you get the feeling back. Then you can start raising them slowly to find the threshold.


Thanks a lot. I tried raising fx, without success, but without lowering Fy (only Mz). I try this right now !

Talking about general ffb, it's a good think the good settings become close to the defaults. I can't imagine how do players who don't read forums like this one ! Maybe they just stop playing...

morpwr
22-01-2016, 00:01
Thanks a lot. I tried raising fx, without success, but without lowering Fy (only Mz). I try this right now !

Talking about general ffb, it's a good think the good settings become close to the defaults. I can't imagine how do players who don't read forums like this one ! Maybe they just stop playing...

What are you using for settings? I'm running the ruf gt3 right now and I can definitely feel it.

spacepadrille
22-01-2016, 00:25
What are you using for settings? I'm running the ruf gt3 right now and I can definitely feel it.

Hi morpwr ! I'm using your settings as I believe they are now :rolleyes:, I tweak around tour base tune. It's very good, but brake feeling missing. Lowering Fy like Haiden suggest helps. But you seem to be so happy that I have a doubt upon the settings I use. Maybe I misunderstood something ? Are your settings the followings ? thanks for help. And last but not least ; do you have one in-car setting for all cars or just a base tune you tweak for each car ?

FFB 75
TF 100
RAG 0.98
RAB 0.12
RAB 0.93
SK 0.80
SR 0.28
SG 1.00

Ruf :
Spindle master scale 30
Fx 80
Fy 30
Fz 60
Mz 48

Sop Master 30
Sop diff 100

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 00:54
Im Not even trying to get any more time w/Stock settings on this 1... The rest is tweek work!!!

spacepadrille
22-01-2016, 00:57
You got it ! :congratulatory: congratulations

morpwr
22-01-2016, 01:04
Im Not even trying to get any more time w/Stock settings on this 1... The rest is tweek work!!!

I was going to suggest we should all get together some night for a race but I'm now ill just have to hit you when you lap me.:p

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 01:13
I was going to suggest we should all get together some night for a race but I'm now ill just have to hit you when you lap me.:p

LOL...I think that's a great Idea... we should set up a race lobby... who's free this weekend???

poirqc
22-01-2016, 01:34
Congratulation GrimeyDog, 1:06 is pretty fast! :cool:

Now, you gotta run 1:05 (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1590386668&vehicle=2274208491) ;)

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 01:43
Congratulation GrimeyDog, 1:06 is pretty fast! :cool:

Now, you gotta run 1:05 (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=1590386668&vehicle=2274208491) ;)

Yup!!! Exactly... In a GT1 Car that is.:D

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-01-2016, 04:35
Grimey or anyone? At the glen when you hit a big curb and the car jumps off the track does that come threw your wheel. I get it when I go over it slower or when I slightly go up on it I lose that hole part when it's a big spike of force. I want the wheel to grab in away and get light I guess more less like it would in a racecar when you hit the curb you guys now that feeling im talking about when you hit light it has play in the wheel that curvy feel lol .

I guess I will Try some more soft clipper I must be clipping when this happens my only guess everything else feels great just cant catch the big spike or its the bleed but I like it at 03 right now. GOOD LAP GRIM DOG.

P.S IM protesting your car that sum bitch ain't stock lol.

Haiden
22-01-2016, 04:49
Grimey or anyone? At the glen when you hit a big curb and the car jumps off the track does that come threw your wheel. I get it when I go over it slower or when I slightly go up on it I lose that hole part when it's a big spike of force. I want the wheel to grab in away and get light I guess more less like it would in a racecar when you hit the curb you guys now that feeling im talking about when you hit light it has play in the wheel that curvy feel lol .

I guess I will Try some more soft clipper I must be clipping when this happens my only guess everything else feels great just cant catch the big spike or its the bleed but I like it at 03 right now. GOOD LAP GRIM DOG.

P.S IM protesting your car that sum bitch ain't stock lol.

When my tires leave the track or I crest a rise at high speed, I can feel the loose slip in the wheel. Are you saying yours just stays flat out strong? What wheel are you using? Settings?

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-01-2016, 05:24
When my tires leave the track or I crest a rise at high speed, I can feel the loose slip in the wheel. Are you saying yours just stays flat out strong? What wheel are you using? Settings?
I guess it stays heavy i just want the wheel be more alive in those times in racecar the wheel wants to jump out of your hands. I just seen something about linkage damper ac fourm lower the damper controls how fast forces happen so im just playing with it set 04 damper, stiffness 1.00 it did something probably will have to drop in car settings to taste. T500

Haiden
22-01-2016, 07:02
I guess it stays heavy i just want the wheel be more alive in those times in racecar the wheel wants to jump out of your hands. I just seen something about linkage damper ac fourm lower the damper controls how fast forces happen so im just playing with it set 04 damper, stiffness 1.00 it did something probably will have to drop in car settings to taste. T500

It should get lighter, because there's no/less grip. What are your Scoop and Relative Adjust settings?

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 10:31
Grimey or anyone? At the glen when you hit a big curb and the car jumps off the track does that come threw your wheel. I get it when I go over it slower or when I slightly go up on it I lose that hole part when it's a big spike of force. I want the wheel to grab in away and get light I guess more less like it would in a racecar when you hit the curb you guys now that feeling im talking about when you hit light it has play in the wheel that curvy feel lol .

I guess I will Try some more soft clipper I must be clipping when this happens my only guess everything else feels great just cant catch the big spike or its the bleed but I like it at 03 right now. GOOD LAP GRIM DOG.

P.S IM protesting your car that sum bitch ain't stock lol.

I'm willing to bet that your using a High Fx setting!!!.. This setting takes away more front end feel than it povides... Fx represents the Very Front of the Car before the front wheels...it Gives Little to No Steering info, it's mostly felt when your front end trys to Leave the Ground or in combo with fy during a Hard turn and one of your front wheels is lifting off the road it makes the Steering Very light.

morpwr
22-01-2016, 10:56
Grimey or anyone? At the glen when you hit a big curb and the car jumps off the track does that come threw your wheel. I get it when I go over it slower or when I slightly go up on it I lose that hole part when it's a big spike of force. I want the wheel to grab in away and get light I guess more less like it would in a racecar when you hit the curb you guys now that feeling im talking about when you hit light it has play in the wheel that curvy feel lol .

I guess I will Try some more soft clipper I must be clipping when this happens my only guess everything else feels great just cant catch the big spike or its the bleed but I like it at 03 right now. GOOD LAP GRIM DOG.

P.S IM protesting your car that sum bitch ain't stock lol.

Hes got nitrous:D

morpwr
22-01-2016, 11:08
Grimey or anyone? At the glen when you hit a big curb and the car jumps off the track does that come threw your wheel. I get it when I go over it slower or when I slightly go up on it I lose that hole part when it's a big spike of force. I want the wheel to grab in away and get light I guess more less like it would in a racecar when you hit the curb you guys now that feeling im talking about when you hit light it has play in the wheel that curvy feel lol .

I guess I will Try some more soft clipper I must be clipping when this happens my only guess everything else feels great just cant catch the big spike or its the bleed but I like it at 03 right now. GOOD LAP GRIM DOG.

P.S IM protesting your car that sum bitch ain't stock lol.

It sounds like your clipping. Clipping can happen without hitting the top or bottom of the screen. It looks like flat tops on waveforms or the end of a candy bar wrapper. Those little zigzags. I didn't know how else to explain it. lol

morpwr
22-01-2016, 11:16
I had a good one last night and I wonder how much of a problem this really is without anybody realizing it. My girlfriend goes to kiss me goodnight when I was playing and shocked me with static electricity. It kicked my wheel off the ps4 at the exact moment it happened. Coincidence I don't know but its never happened before.

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 11:23
It sounds like your clipping. Clipping can happen without hitting the top or bottom of the screen. It looks like flat tops on waveforms or the end of a candy bar wrapper. Those little zigzags. I didn't know how else to explain it. lol

in Game Clipping is Total Flat Line in the Gpaph and the wheel Goes Flat.

He could be getting at the wheel Clipping which will Not be seen in the FFB Graph... Thats why its important to set the correct in Game Master FFB... but that lack of feel he is getting just in that certain Spot seems like too much Fx to me.

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 11:26
I had a good one last night and I wonder how much of a problem this really is without anybody realizing it. My girlfriend goes to kiss me goodnight when I was playing and shocked me with static electricity. It kicked my wheel off the ps4 at the exact moment it happened. Coincidence I don't know but its never happened before.

I've Had that Happen before!.. Check all Plugs Make sure they are Firmly plugged in also make sure your pugs have No Dust interfering with making a Solid connection.... Plugs gather dust just because especially the USB ports.

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 11:28
Hes got nitrous:D

im going to post the Video of that Run!!! and i Stuck the Lap to the TT boards!!! im Done with Pushing that car on that Track Stock i reached my bench mark!!! it was hard to get it there stock... to get more with that car on that Track i gotta tweek the Gears bu its Not alot of Room for gear tweek work in the Gt3 Ruf... Mabe suspension and aero tweeks will get more... I dunno.

Next Track Brathurst or that Rapinua??? i dunno i cant Spell it but its the Track in France.LOL

morpwr
22-01-2016, 11:58
in Game Clipping is Total Flat Line in the Gpaph and the wheel Goes Flat.

He could be getting at the wheel Clipping which will Not be seen in the FFB Graph... Thats why its important to set the correct in Game Master FFB... but that lack of feel he is getting just in that certain Spot seems like too much Fx to me.

Actually grimey that is not the only way the other ways I described are clipping also but caused by wheel ffb settings like sc. But I agree at wheel clipping wont be seen.

BigDad
22-01-2016, 12:51
I had a good one last night and I wonder how much of a problem this really is without anybody realizing it. My girlfriend goes to kiss me goodnight when I was playing and shocked me with static electricity. It kicked my wheel off the ps4 at the exact moment it happened. Coincidence I don't know but its never happened before.
Pcars will keep the spark between you both .

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 13:02
I have went back to My Regular settings in My PDF... The settings i Posted with Fz, Mz, SoP Lat set to 50 are just too Light for Me... Whlie all FFB can Still be Felt Clearly... The Settings are Too Light for Me Just Not enough wheel weight/Fight and that Causes Me to Contantly Oversteer... But they will be Good for those that do Not Need or Want Such Heavier FFB Forces or that are using wheels other than a V2 and are concered that such strong Forces will Damage their wheel... Both ways feel the same just 50% Less Power in the FFB Effects.

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 13:04
Pcars will keep the spark between you both .

LOL... No Spark just diff FFB preference... The Best FFB is the 1 that gets you the Best Lap Times and Consistency.. What works for 1 may not work for the Other.... Plus the equipment used same Tweek is Different so same Tweek can have Diff Feel because of that..

I say we Have a Race Off to settle it:p LOL

morpwr
22-01-2016, 13:29
Yeah no sparks except from bottoming out.lol I'm game only way to get faster is to race with faster people. Well and practice. ps4 tag morpwr1969 you gotta leave the nitrous at home though.

gotdirt410sprintcar
22-01-2016, 14:00
I tried some stuff last night I set linkage damping at 07 and linkage stuffiness 1.00 it livened up the wheel like I want it to I might need to drop fx but its at 26 as it is.

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 14:10
I tried some stuff last night I set linkage damping at 07 and linkage stuffiness 1.00 it livened up the wheel like I want it to I might need to drop fx but its at 26 as it is.

Drop it more and test... i use Fx 2.00 to my feel Fx takes away from the Fy feeling which is most important imo...on a track like Monza on that last straight when i slam the Brakes before the turn My Wheel goe's Crazy with that Gripping the Road Heavy Frake Feel... That is a Bumpy turn also!!!!

My wheel feels Very Close to how My 350z Steering wheel feels in RL... Im Loving it!!!

IMO Damping Kills the Very Forces you are trying to feel... only eason you Need damping is when 1 force is being drowned out by another force... but because w have total control over the FFB forces why use damping when you can just simply turn down the FFB force thats over shdowing and Drowning out the other forces...Balance is the key.

IMO there are just too many settings that can be Seen...We see them and Think we Need to use them all....we dont Need to use most of the settings Many of them are there so the FFB can be adjusted to different wheels. Ex: Gear dtiven wheels may Need Smoothing to kill the Notchy feel caused by the Gears while a Belt driven wheel will Not Need that.... IMO With Pcars Les settings used = More and Better FFB Feel.

Haiden
22-01-2016, 14:41
I had a good one last night and I wonder how much of a problem this really is without anybody realizing it. My girlfriend goes to kiss me goodnight when I was playing and shocked me with static electricity. It kicked my wheel off the ps4 at the exact moment it happened. Coincidence I don't know but its never happened before.

I guess it would depend on what type of rim you're using. The stock T300 and F1 rims are have rubber grips--non-conductive. :) Not sure what would happen with the GT 28. It's leather and metal.

morpwr
22-01-2016, 15:37
I guess it would depend on what type of rim you're using. The stock T300 and F1 rims are have rubber grips--non-conductive. :) Not sure what would happen with the GT 28. It's leather and metal.

Rims are but the paddles aren't and I usually have at least one finger on them.

Haiden
22-01-2016, 16:07
So last night I did a complete reinstall. Wasn't having any problems before, but it's been more than 4 updates since I installed the game, and I thought I'd see if it made a difference. Surprisingly, the only thing that seems different to me are the graphics. The sunlight and reflections seem warmer. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense, but it felt like the first time I played PCars on PS4 after playing on Xb1 for months--not a huge difference, but noticeable.

FFB wise, everything feels exactly the same. Since everything was reset, I left all settings at default and ran my favorite car/track combo--FA at Silverstone. The defaults felt pretty good, definitely smoother. I didn't feel any of that low-level, ambient grinding you sometimes gets with custom settings. The wheel was also smoother in a tamer way, although, I'm not sure that was a good thing. I was still feeling a good amount of detail, but when I'm driving a FA, I expect a little more fight from the wheel when cornering on rough tracks and/or over undulations. IMO, those cars should never be too easy to drive. :)

Anyway, I wasn't running any apps or using a HUD, so I could focus on the feel. After about 4 or 5 laps, I turned the HUD on and was shocked to see that I was extremely close to my track best. I did not expect to find myself within a second of my best, because I was running default in-car settings, as well as globals, and in my previous installation, the FA was well-tuned for Silverstone. I started pushing and tied my track best two laps later. Like I said, I was shocked, because I was running everything default. I then tried my custom globals with the in-car defaults. I had to turn my wheel force back to 100 (up from 75), but that was it. The in-car settings felt even better with my globals, so I was puzzled. And then it hit me... The major difference was that the defaults weren't using any SoP. I had stopped using SoP Lateral, because I knew it was making me slower. It works in the same spectrum as Fy, but there's no real way to differentiate between the feel of the two forces at the wheel level. Fy is a strong and fairly constant force, sending SoP through the same spectrum just ends up interfering, at least for me. So I dropped SoP Lat a while ago, but was still using a little SoP Diff. It helped bring a little weight to the wheel and felt good. But now I suspect it's doing the same thing SoP Lat was doing. It just works on a different axis, mixing with a different force spectrum(s).

Long story short, this weekend, I'm going to rebalance my in-car settings to work without SoP. Once that's done, I'll have three setups to test the following week...

Default Globals + Custom In-car
Custom Globals + Default In-Car
Custom Globals + Custom In-Car

I'll test one combo per day (to make sure I come to each fresh) on three tracks, 15 laps each. Whichever setup produces the lowest and most consistent laps (number of laps within .5 of each other) will be the one I use for this upcoming 20 week FA race series. The series should be pretty awesome--60 mile races, four 2x progression weather slots (2 set to random), 3x tire wear, forced cockpit, no assists, full damage. It'll feel like the F1 season started a little early this year. :) Oh, also...that reminds me... A somewhat superfluous detail that makes me happy: This year, the F1 spec has changed, and the cars are expected to be 14-25% louder. :D

tennenbaum
22-01-2016, 16:25
Try raising Fx. That's the scale that is supposed to affect brake feel. The problem is that it's easily drowned out by other forces, especially Fy. Which kind of reasons with the description below. I can't remember where I found this, but I saved it.

Fx - longitudinal force. If one wheel has more longitudinal grip than the other when braking, this extra grip is felt as the FFB pulling in the direction of that wheel.

With my current settings, I can feel the braking feel get stronger or weaker when I raise/lower Fx. Try lowering the other scales, starting with Fy, until you get the feeling back. Then you can start raising them slowly to find the threshold.



I meant the rack forces going through it--FX, Fy, Fz, and Mz. I always call it the spindle for some reason when I'm rambling. :)



I think that's true. A mix of there being a lot of issues in the beginning, and also being given the keys to poke around under the hood. The problems and poor feel early on made people think deep custom tuning was necessary to enjoy the game. And once you start down that path, you just keep going, because it was working. I didn't realize how good the defaults had actually become until I got my CSW-v2 and started tuning from scratch.


yep. great that you brought it up that we might get stuck in our own "circles" :D

tennenbaum
22-01-2016, 16:29
That is when it got easy for me I went back to defaults and started over. Im sure most of us tried them first and went what the hell? Things have definitely changed. I think part of the problem was we were allowed to have all this freedom suddenly and our brains went into overload. Besides the fact we all know at this point how easy it is to get way off and chase yourself in circles with tweaking. All of us wanted this to be great right from the beginning and it was sort of but had a lot of issues. I think more than we actually knew. But here we are today with something that is getting really good and a whole lot easier thanks to the guys on here and sms. Cant forget them for all the hard work and listening to us complain.

"chasing ourselves in circles" - indeed that can happen, good that Haiden reflected on that .

i hope to find time to check out patch 8.0. soon...

Haiden
22-01-2016, 17:30
"chasing ourselves in circles" - indeed that can happen, good that Haiden reflected on that .

i hope to find time to check out patch 8.0. soon...

Yep. morpwr brought it up, which prompted my comment, and also motivated me to do a complete reinstall. :)

GrimeyDog
22-01-2016, 19:57
Ariel atom on Nurburgring VS Corvette Z06 600HP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abAogAUyoTE)

Haiden
22-01-2016, 23:48
All the talk about how much things have changed through the updates got me thinking, so I did another scale test, something I haven't done since I first bought the game. It's basically just turning all the scales down to zero and then testing them one by one with a max setting of 200. It's a good way to get a feel for exactly how each scale is influencing the final force output. Nothing new, lots of people do it when they start tuning. Anyway, I learned two things--not sure if it's due to a change in the FFB system, or if I just don't remember it being this way.

Mz is the wheel's natural centering/self aligning force. You can feel it if you run the scale by itself, but this time, I noticed that the scale's centering force isn't constant. Somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees of wheel rotation, the force slips outs. This makes sense if you think about the way the wheels on a car turn. After a certain point, the car's wheels are angled too far for any centering to occur. The angle and the forward momentum keep them in the turned position. The threshold for where the force slips out and back in, feels very notchy with the scale set to 200. Exactly like the jerking force I sometimes feel in the wheel when the in-car FFB balance is off, like I'm turning my rim through a big ball bearing or something. If you haven't tried running Mz at 200 by itself, give it a shot. I think it helps to identify that feeling.

Fz is said to be curbs, bumps, and road feel. The strange thing is, when I set Fz to 200 and ran it by itself, I could barely feel any of the curbs, and the telemetry line was barely moving, even when I drove on the grass. I thought that was really odd. But when I tested the Fy scale by itself at 200, I not only felt the strong lateral pull that I was expecting, but I also felt way more curbs and bumps, and saw way more play in the telemetry.

Anyway, I found the behavior of those two scales interesting, and just thought I share.

GrimeyDog
23-01-2016, 01:16
I don't know how your FFB is set up but they cant deviate from the Basic Blue print of Fx,Fy,Fz which is the mathematical formula for a 3D Model/picture... Even though they didn't give us instructions SMS would still have to follow the basic rules of thumb or Else that mathematical tweeking formulas go further out the window IMO...


Note: the Master FFB seems to have increased with 8.0 so for My tweek i lowered the Game master FFB from 35:no: to 30:yes: New:eagerness:

morpwr
23-01-2016, 01:31
All the talk about how much things have changed through the updates got me thinking, so I did another scale test, something I haven't done since I first bought the game. It's basically just turning all the scales down to zero and then testing them one by one with a max setting of 200. It's a good way to get a feel for exactly how each scale is influencing the final force output. Nothing new, lots of people do it when they start tuning. Anyway, I learned two things--not sure if it's due to a change in the FFB system, or if I just don't remember it being this way.

Mz is the wheel's natural centering/self aligning force. You can feel it if you run the scale by itself, but this time, I noticed that the scale's centering force isn't constant. Somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees of wheel rotation, the force slips outs. This makes sense if you think about the way the wheels on a car turn. After a certain point, the car's wheels are angled too far for any centering to occur. The angle and the forward momentum keep them in the turned position. The threshold for where the force slips out and back in, feels very notchy with the scale set to 200. Exactly like the jerking force I sometimes feel in the wheel when the in-car FFB balance is off, like I'm turning my rim through a big ball bearing or something. If you haven't tried running Mz at 200 by itself, give it a shot. I think it helps to identify that feeling.

Fz is said to be curbs, bumps, and road feel. The strange thing is, when I set Fz to 200 and ran it by itself, I could barely feel any of the curbs, and the telemetry line was barely moving, even when I drove on the grass. I thought that was really odd. But when I tested the Fy scale by itself at 200, I not only felt the strong lateral pull that I was expecting, but I also felt way more curbs and bumps, and saw way more play in the telemetry.

Anyway, I found the behavior of those two scales interesting, and just thought I share.

Something definitely is different in a good way because my wheel has never felt this good. For the first time ever I can clearly feel every detail with just about default settings and its smooth. I don't know if its the tire model change or the fact they fixed the problem with the thrustmaster wheels. I'm not exactly sure what the effect would be with soft lock reading the wrong gain? On the mz if you read timos notes on this which I think are pretty good. He says when tuning mz turn it up until you feel that notch then back off till its gone. I did a bunch of blind tests the other night with mz against jacks and my blind tests on cars I didn't know all where close to his. Yep I know hate to admit it but not as far off like I expected them to be. I know somewhere along time ago I read the mz and fy forces weren't scaled properly maybe this has been adjusted now?

morpwr
23-01-2016, 01:41
I don't know how your FFB is set up but they cant deviate from the Basic Blue print of Fx,Fy,Fz which is the mathematical formula for a 3D Model/picture... Even though they didn't give us instructions SMS would still have to follow the basic rules of thumb or Else that mathematical tweeking formulas go further out the window IMO...


Note: the Master FFB seems to have increased with 8.0 so for My tweek i lowered the Game master FFB from 35:no: to 30:yes: New:eagerness:

Well they could follow the formula but have things scaled slightly off as fz is weight applied to wheel .

GrimeyDog
23-01-2016, 02:13
I think they definitely Made it Smoother... It feels like 6.0 but without the tire Heat and Wear....6.0 was the best even with the tires heating up that was a issue for some.
6.0 made Pcars into a very Strategic Sim Racer.... As it is Now its still a good racing Game but its just a Mindless Hot Lap Racing Game now... Mash the Gas and Go Go Go!!!

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-01-2016, 02:25
They fixed the thrustmaster center spring I think check your update history its there

morpwr
23-01-2016, 02:27
I think they definitely Made it Smoother... It feels like 6.0 but without the tire Heat and Wear....6.0 was the best even with the tires heating up that was a issue for some.
6.0 made Pcars into a very Strategic Sim Racer.... As it is Now its still a good racing Game but its just a Mindless Hot Lap Racing Game now... Mash the Gas and Go Go Go!!!

Is it really or is it because youre smooth you get away with it more than some would?

morpwr
23-01-2016, 02:30
They fixed the thrustmaster center spring I think check your update history its there

It said soft lock issue in the patch notes? All I know is its completely different know in a good way.

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-01-2016, 02:41
Hey grim you can't run laps this weekend because you might have to dig out? Or more laps because YOU AIN'T GOT TO GO TO WORK


Why you get all the fun lol

skoader
23-01-2016, 03:37
All the talk about how much things have changed through the updates got me thinking, so I did another scale test, something I haven't done since I first bought the game. It's basically just turning all the scales down to zero and then testing them one by one with a max setting of 200. It's a good way to get a feel for exactly how each scale is influencing the final force output. Nothing new, lots of people do it when they start tuning. Anyway, I learned two things--not sure if it's due to a change in the FFB system, or if I just don't remember it being this way.

Mz is the wheel's natural centering/self aligning force. You can feel it if you run the scale by itself, but this time, I noticed that the scale's centering force isn't constant. Somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees of wheel rotation, the force slips outs. This makes sense if you think about the way the wheels on a car turn. After a certain point, the car's wheels are angled too far for any centering to occur. The angle and the forward momentum keep them in the turned position. The threshold for where the force slips out and back in, feels very notchy with the scale set to 200. Exactly like the jerking force I sometimes feel in the wheel when the in-car FFB balance is off, like I'm turning my rim through a big ball bearing or something. If you haven't tried running Mz at 200 by itself, give it a shot. I think it helps to identify that feeling.

Fz is said to be curbs, bumps, and road feel. The strange thing is, when I set Fz to 200 and ran it by itself, I could barely feel any of the curbs, and the telemetry line was barely moving, even when I drove on the grass. I thought that was really odd. But when I tested the Fy scale by itself at 200, I not only felt the strong lateral pull that I was expecting, but I also felt way more curbs and bumps, and saw way more play in the telemetry.

Anyway, I found the behavior of those two scales interesting, and just thought I share.

I haven't tried 8.0 yet but this is an inherent property of Mz - It rises sharply on initial turn in and drops off approaching peak slip angle. For me that drop off provides crucial slip angle info which is central to how I setup my cars.

I've never found Fz to be particularly useful for curb/bump feel either. It just doesn't seem to relay those high frequency fluctuations like one might expect. A small amount of SoP diff is much more informative.

GrimeyDog
23-01-2016, 03:37
Hey grim you can't run laps this weekend because you might have to dig out? Or more laps because YOU AIN'T GOT TO GO TO WORK


Why you get all the fun lol

Im going to race all weekend!!! and i get to play with my snow blower!!!! wooohooo
-

GrimeyDog
23-01-2016, 04:14
Is it really or is it because youre smooth you get away with it more than some would?

I dunno??? I Scortch the tires in some Curves!!! it all depends... But i can say for sure that i set Game Master FFB to 30 and its Smooth as Butter!!!

Haiden
23-01-2016, 04:16
Something definitely is different in a good way because my wheel has never felt this good. For the first time ever I can clearly feel every detail with just about default settings and its smooth. I don't know if its the tire model change or the fact they fixed the problem with the thrustmaster wheels. I'm not exactly sure what the effect would be with soft lock reading the wrong gain? On the mz if you read timos notes on this which I think are pretty good. He says when tuning mz turn it up until you feel that notch then back off till its gone. I did a bunch of blind tests the other night with mz against jacks and my blind tests on cars I didn't know all where close to his. Yep I know hate to admit it but not as far off like I expected them to be. I know somewhere along time ago I read the mz and fy forces weren't scaled properly maybe this has been adjusted now?

I don't think it's just a Thrustmaster thing. The defaults feel better to me, as well. Right now, it looks like the only thing I'm changing in the globals is Scoop Knee, Scoop Reduction, and Relative Adjust Bleed. Everything else, I've left at default. But the in-car defaults actually feel very good with my globals.

I'm going to take a different approach this time to the in-car FFB. I'm going to start with the defaults, and then raise the Master Scale slowly, test after each increase, and then make adjustments to keep everything smooth. For example, with a Master Scale of 26, I felt no grinding. Everything was smooth. I raised the Master to 36, and started to feel a little grinding. I lowered Mz to 96, and the grinding was virtually gone. I'm going to lower Mz to 94 next. That should eliminate the grinding altogether. If it does, then I'll raise the Master Scale another few increments and test the feel again. If any issues come up, I'll readjust the scales to resolve them, and then raise the Master again. I'll keep doing that, until I get to the point that I can't solve any issues that arise. If the wheel gets too heavy from the increases, then I'll start attenuating the force at the wheel level. The goal is to get the Master Scale as high as I can without any adverse effects on the feel of the FFB.

GrimeyDog
23-01-2016, 06:25
Hmmmm.... Fx..... very interesting....Need a little more testing but i think i like it... i added just a tad bit of it to check it again.... corners where i was losing time... im Gaining Time in Now!!! .250 or more!!! i can really just nose dive the car in point it gas and go!!! very interesting.

tennenbaum
23-01-2016, 08:19
I haven't tried 8.0 yet but this is an inherent property of Mz - It rises sharply on initial turn in and drops off approaching peak slip angle. For me that drop off provides crucial slip angle info which is central to how I setup my cars.

I've never found Fz to be particularly useful for curb/bump feel either. It just doesn't seem to relay those high frequency fluctuations like one might expect. A small amount of SoP diff is much more informative.

that goes exactly along with my findings. SMS even wrote it on their WMD webpage (i think in 2014) that the STM calculates "inverse" (negative) Mz effects. That's when in Pacejka's magic formula the green curve goes across the horizontal coordinate axis.

225860

When you use Mz only or weight it more than other forces that "inverse" behavior leads to the interesting effect that the wheel kind of jerks while you "balance" the steering alongside best slip angle. When you don't know the reason for that jerking you wonder where that comes from. First i thought it's some flaw. I tried to remember if i ever felt such force effects when i drove real karts... i didn't (but i think with real karts you have to drag the wheel so very heavily anyway that i simply never paid attention to the "Mz" force ;-) I'd be interested to know if others made the same observation.

tennenbaum
23-01-2016, 08:36
BTW: Any need to delete and reinstall the game completely after downloading patch 8.0 ?

spacepadrille
23-01-2016, 09:55
When you use Mz only or weight it more than other forces that "inverse" behavior leads to the interesting effect that the wheel kind of jerks while you "balance" the steering alongside best slip angle. When you don't know the reason for that jerking you wonder where that comes from. First i thought it's some flaw. I tried to remember if i ever felt such force effects when i drove real karts... i didn't (but i think with real karts you have to drag the wheel so very heavily anyway that i simply never paid attention to the "Mz" force ;-) I'd be interested to know if others made the same observation.

I think I experienced that yesterday ! I put Mz too high to see what it does, and I felt a strange non natural force conterbalancing the normal feeling of the wheel while steering.


And yes it's a pain in the ass but it's certainly better to do a fresh install after patch 8 :-(

gotdirt410sprintcar
23-01-2016, 12:04
Whats the reason for fresh install ? If you just shut down ps4 after update the would be safe too on a pc there some stuff that tell you to restart pc after update. I have never had a problem i just recalibrate on wheel pedals that's it .
Feels better everytime we get a update did the same way on gt3rs never had a problem and fanatce had a few updates felt better everytime ldk.

spacepadrille
23-01-2016, 12:31
Whats the reason for fresh install ? If you just shut down ps4 after update the would be safe too on a pc there some stuff that tell you to restart pc after update. I have never had a problem i just recalibrate on wheel pedals that's it .
Feels better everytime we get a update did the same way on gt3rs never had a problem and fanatce had a few updates felt better everytime ldk.

My FFB was messed, and I had a different FFB while running a race than during the qualifs just before. And after each restard of the game I had a different FFB feeling. After a fresh install all these issues have gone.

morpwr
23-01-2016, 13:18
Im going to race all weekend!!! and i get to play with my snow blower!!!! wooohooo
-

Only a person from new York would get excited about that. lol

morpwr
23-01-2016, 13:24
Hmmmm.... Fx..... very interesting....Need a little more testing but i think i like it... i added just a tad bit of it to check it again.... corners where i was losing time... im Gaining Time in Now!!! .250 or more!!! i can really just nose dive the car in point it gas and go!!! very interesting.

That's what we need!lol You going faster....

morpwr
23-01-2016, 13:32
that goes exactly along with my findings. SMS even wrote it on their WMD webpage (i think in 2014) that the STM calculates "inverse" (negative) Mz effects. That's when in Pacejka's magic formula the green curve goes across the horizontal coordinate axis.

225860

When you use Mz only or weight it more than other forces that "inverse" behavior leads to the interesting effect that the wheel kind of jerks while you "balance" the steering alongside best slip angle. When you don't know the reason for that jerking you wonder where that comes from. First i thought it's some flaw. I tried to remember if i ever felt such force effects when i drove real karts... i didn't (but i think with real karts you have to drag the wheel so very heavily anyway that i simply never paid attention to the "Mz" force ;-) I'd be interested to know if others made the same observation.

I think you are talking about the same effect I hated. Right at mid corner usually you would turn the wheel a little more and it would sort of skip. I always though it was from having the relationship between mz and fy wrong as I could limit it. I haven't noticed it since this patch but everything is so different now I haven't been really paying attention. Still getting over the excitement that it works right:D

morpwr
23-01-2016, 13:35
BTW: Any need to delete and reinstall the game completely after downloading patch 8.0 ?
Don't know if I needed too but after the other times I don't even bother not doing it. Doing a rebuild database doesn't hurt either. Ive has very few issues that others complain about.

morpwr
23-01-2016, 13:40
Whats the reason for fresh install ? If you just shut down ps4 after update the would be safe too on a pc there some stuff that tell you to restart pc after update. I have never had a problem i just recalibrate on wheel pedals that's it .
Feels better everytime we get a update did the same way on gt3rs never had a problem and fanatce had a few updates felt better everytime ldk.

It started a while back with these big patches. When you download them for some reason the ffb gets screwed up. You will know the minute it happens because the ffb will suddenly feel different and usually not in a good way. Shutting down the ps4 doesn't help as the its still corrupted. This is the only game ive ever had to do this. Many will say it bs but I'm not the one that figured it out and I know it works.

tennenbaum
23-01-2016, 13:51
I haven't tried 8.0 yet but this is an inherent property of Mz - It rises sharply on initial turn in and drops off approaching peak slip angle. For me that drop off provides crucial slip angle info which is central to how I setup my cars.

I've never found Fz to be particularly useful for curb/bump feel either. It just doesn't seem to relay those high frequency fluctuations like one might expect. A small amount of SoP diff is much more informative.

Hi skoader, there is one thing that still puzzles me: If i remember correctly, you once said, that changing the value of the in-game master FFB would actually change the I/O curve, meaning e.g.: lowering it from an 100 (or from 75 default for PS4) would cause a non-linearity (usually a more convex bowed curve). Is that the case? In the meantime it seems to me that more and more people set in-game FFB lower.

spacepadrille
23-01-2016, 14:32
Hi all ! After a new fresh install this morning, all is working now in the right way. I use JS classic as base tune for cars and default global setting except Deadzone 0.08, DZRF 0.017, RAG 0.92, SK 0.70, SR 0.22. I didn't drive every cars nope every track, but all the ones I tested are very good like that (one click here, another there). Some exceptions : The clio is better with 66% sop lat mix, and the FA is very flat.
I noticed that changing only a little to SK and SR is enough to completely loose the brake feeling. SK is a very important parameter.
I beat my own record on short glenn with the ruf ! :) :) I'm very far away to Grimey (I'm only 1.08.0xx), but that means the FFB is good !

Haiden
23-01-2016, 14:58
that goes exactly along with my findings. SMS even wrote it on their WMD webpage (i think in 2014) that the STM calculates "inverse" (negative) Mz effects. That's when in Pacejka's magic formula the green curve goes across the horizontal coordinate axis.

When you use Mz only or weight it more than other forces that "inverse" behavior leads to the interesting effect that the wheel kind of jerks while you "balance" the steering alongside best slip angle.

Makes sense. And, yes. That's exactly the feeling I was talking about-that jerking/ hard chug you get turning back to center. When Mz is too high, that just doesn't feel right, especially in the Forumla A.


BTW: Any need to delete and reinstall the game completely after downloading patch 8.0 ?


Whats the reason for fresh install ? If you just shut down ps4 after update the would be safe too on a pc there some stuff that tell you to restart pc after update. I have never had a problem i just recalibrate on wheel pedals that's it .
Feels better everytime we get a update did the same way on gt3rs never had a problem and fanatce had a few updates felt better everytime ldk.

I don't know if you need to do it after every patch. If you're experiencing problems, then it's definitely something you should try. Otherwise, maybe after every 3 or 4 patches, depending on how big they are. It shouldn't be necessary, but given how deep some of the issues are that SMS is dealing with, there's no telling how the updates apply themselves to existing installations. It's like updating from Home or Light version of Windows to a full Professional version. You can choose the Upgrade Only option, but it's always best to do a complete reinstall to avoid issues. I just did one. I had been running the same version since 4.0, and wasn't really having any problems outside a few occasional issues--crash to dashboard, FFB not loading when starting a new session, sound not loading properly. They didn't happen that often, so it'll be a while before I can tell if the reinstall helped. I also don't think SMS is making so many deep code changes. So, unless you're having problems, it's probably becoming less and less necessary.


Only a person from new York would get excited about that. lol

We love snow in Chicago, too. For people like me, that live and work in the city and don't really drive, it's not a big deal. I also love cold weather. :)


Don't know if I needed too but after the other times I don't even bother not doing it. Doing a rebuild database doesn't hurt either. Ive has very few issues that others complain about.

I read up on this a few weeks ago, because I was wondering if I should do it. It appears to be just another term for hard drive defragmentation. If that's the case, then you don't need to do it over and over. Defragging best serves HDs that have had large blocks of data installed, deleted, and reinstalled, which leaves gaps and related data spread across the drive. If you don't delete and reinstall games often for space, then it won't quite as beneficial.

morpwr
23-01-2016, 15:24
Makes sense. And, yes. That's exactly the feeling I was talking about-that jerking/ hard chug you get turning back to center. When Mz is too high, that just doesn't feel right, especially in the Forumla A.





I don't know if you need to do it after every patch. If you're experiencing problems, then it's definitely something you should try. Otherwise, maybe after every 3 or 4 patches, depending on how big they are. It shouldn't be necessary, but given how deep some of the issues are that SMS is dealing with, there's no telling how the updates apply themselves to existing installations. It's like updating from Home or Light version of Windows to a full Professional version. You can choose the Upgrade Only option, but it's always best to do a complete reinstall to avoid issues. I just did one. I had been running the same version since 4.0, and wasn't really having any problems outside a few occasional issues--crash to dashboard, FFB not loading when starting a new session, sound not loading properly. They didn't happen that often, so it'll be a while before I can tell if the reinstall helped. I also don't think SMS is making so many deep code changes. So, unless you're having problems, it's probably becoming less and less necessary.



We love snow in Chicago, too. For people like me, that live and work in the city and don't really drive, it's not a big deal. I also love cold weather. :)



I read up on this a few weeks ago, because I was wondering if I should do it. It appears to be just another term for hard drive defragmentation. If that's the case, then you don't need to do it over and over. Defragging best serves HDs that have had large blocks of data installed, deleted, and reinstalled, which leaves gaps and related data spread across the drive. If you don't delete and reinstall games often for space, then it won't quite as beneficial.

Yes it is the same thing. Ive only done that one time. But as I'm sure we all know when youre sharing the ps4 with kids they fill up fast and things do need to get removed. Ive had mine since it came out and this was the first time ive done the rebuild database so I'm sure more things have been installed and removed than I remember.

Haiden
23-01-2016, 16:33
Yes it is the same thing. Ive only done that one time. But as I'm sure we all know when youre sharing the ps4 with kids they fill up fast and things do need to get removed. Ive had mine since it came out and this was the first time ive done the rebuild database so I'm sure more things have been installed and removed than I remember.

Exactly. My PS4 is only about six months old. I'm the only one using it, and I only have about four games installed on it. No need to defrag. :) Compared to how many games I have on Xb1, it's obvious that PCars has completely stifled my gaming diversity. And I'm not even complaining. :)

GrimeyDog
24-01-2016, 02:30
Very interesting... I've added just a tad bit more "Fx" to my in car settings... That caused me to Lower My "Fz", "Mz" and "SoP Lat" due to added wheel weight.... But to My Suprise it has Made My Lap Times .250 per Lap!!!

That Small increase in Fx seems to make the wheel Smoother and Gives just that Right feel when diving into Corners.... Very interesting!!!

Haiden
24-01-2016, 15:20
Finished re-tuning and testing the Formula A at Silverstone. I started from scratch, first adjusting the globals so that they felt good with the default in-car settings. In the end, I was able to beat my track best by at least .300, using the default mechanical setup. My old best was achieved in an FA that was well-tuned for the track, so I was really surprised by the new results. The only thing I changed in the globals were RAB, SK, and SR (see below), using the default TF/FF for the CSW-v2.

TF/FF = 100/50

Relative Adjust Bleed = 0.12
Scoop Knee = 0.68
Scoop Reduction = 0.18

Next, I started working the in-car settings, raising the Master Scale a few increments at a time, and then dealing with any adverse effects in the wheel. Everything continued to feel good up to a Master Scale of 36. At that point, I started to get some grinding and had to turn Mz down to 94. At a Master Scale of 40, I had to start attenuating the force at the wheel level. There was nothing wrong feel wise--it was still smooth with lots of detail. The wheel was just too strong for my personal tastes, and it was starting to interfere with my cornering. I dropped the wheel force to 95, and it felt right for me. But after taking a break and coming back to it, I realized that I had just gotten used to the weight, so I brought the wheel force down to 90, and that was perfect.

I was able to get the Master up to 46, before having to making any other adjustments. At around 44-46, I started losing the weight transfer of Fx (accel and decel). Dropping Fy to 96 brought the braking feel back up to a decent level (personal tastes would apply here, but I like to feel the weight on the front tires under heavy braking, because it helps with throttle/brake modulation in corners). Dropping Fy also took a little weight out of the wheel, which allowed for a slight increase of force at the wheel level.

A Master Scale of 46 was as far as I got with the testing. Above that, things started getting a little more wonky, and were going to take more fiddling with the other force scales. But by that point, I had crushed my old track best by almost a full second--still using the default mechanical setup--so I wasn't very motivated to keep going. :) I'm not sure if I'll try pushing the Master any further. I'd like to, but I get tired of testing FFB and not racing. Also, since doing the hard reset, all my favorite cars need track tuning again. And the first race in my upcoming FA series is on Caldwell GP, which is pretty much the only GP track I've haven't driven in an FA. Needless to say, I need to get practicing and tuning. :)

Despite getting the Master up to 46, I've decided to keep mine at 40. I got the best lap times with that setting and the wheel force at 90. However, this wasn't about detail/feel. This was just a strength preference. Detail wise, the FFB felt fine up to 46. It was just too strong for me.

One thing I did notice that's worth mentioning. All in all, there were actually three ways to deal with the grinding that crept in as I raised the Master. One, and the most obvious, I could turn the Master back down. Two, I could lower Mz. Or three, I could attenuate the force output at the wheel level. If you're trying to push more into the FFB, then option one is counter productive, because it basically means you can't go any further with it. Option two was the most benign/surgical fix, as the small decrease required to remove the grinding didn't affect any of the others forces and left the general feel in tact. Option three, however, not only removed the grinding, but also changed the feel of the wheel. So basically, it's worth noting that adjusting the Master Scale and attenuating the force at the wheel are not the same. Which makes sense (assuming I'm understanding it correctly), because adjusting the Master Scale just affects the tire forces going into the spindle, but not the general FF. So, in that scenario, lowering the Master would allow FF to assert more influence over the final output. But when you attenuate at the wheel level, you're adjusting the final output and the FF/TF balance remains intact. I tested this by setting the Master to 36 and running the wheel at 100, and then raising the Master to 40 and running the wheel at 90. The latter combination felt much better, and had me running easily .500 faster.

Anyway...that's all I got, for now. :)

tennenbaum
24-01-2016, 16:19
Finished re-tuning and testing the Formula A at Silverstone. I started from scratch, first adjusting the globals so that they felt good with the default in-car settings. In the end, I was able to beat my track best by at least .300, using the default mechanical setup. My old best was achieved in an FA that was well-tuned for the track, so I was really surprised by the new results. The only thing I changed in the globals were RAB, SK, and SR (see below), using the default TF/FF for the CSW-v2.

TF/FF = 100/50

Relative Adjust Bleed = 0.12
Scoop Knee = 0.68
Scoop Reduction = 0.18

Next, I started working the in-car settings, raising the Master Scale a few increments at a time, and then dealing with any adverse effects in the wheel. Everything continued to feel good up to a Master Scale of 36. At that point, I started to get some grinding and had to turn Mz down to 94. At a Master Scale of 40, I had to start attenuating the force at the wheel level. There was nothing wrong feel wise--it was still smooth with lots of detail. The wheel was just too strong for my personal tastes, and it was starting to interfere with my cornering. I dropped the wheel force to 95, and it felt right for me. But after taking a break and coming back to it, I realized that I had just gotten used to the weight, so I brought the wheel force down to 90, and that was perfect.

I was able to get the Master up to 46, before having to making any other adjustments. At around 44-46, I started losing the weight transfer of Fx (accel and decel). Dropping Fy to 96 brought the braking feel back up to a decent level (personal tastes would apply here, but I like to feel the weight on the front tires under heavy braking, because it helps with throttle/brake modulation in corners). Dropping Fy also took a little weight out of the wheel, which allowed for a slight increase of force at the wheel level.

A Master Scale of 46 was as far as I got with the testing. Above that, things started getting a little more wonky, and were going to take more fiddling with the other force scales. But by that point, I had crushed my old track best by almost a full second--still using the default mechanical setup--so I wasn't very motivated to keep going. :) I'm not sure if I'll try pushing the Master any further. I'd like to, but I get tired of testing FFB and not racing. Also, since doing the hard reset, all my favorite cars need track tuning again. And the first race in my upcoming FA series is on Caldwell GP, which is pretty much the only GP track I've haven't driven in an FA. Needless to say, I need to get practicing and tuning. :)

Despite getting the Master up to 46, I've decided to keep mine at 40. I got the best lap times with that setting and the wheel force at 90. However, this wasn't about detail/feel. This was just a strength preference. Detail wise, the FFB felt fine up to 46. It was just too strong for me.

One thing I did notice that's worth mentioning. All in all, there were actually three ways to deal with the grinding that crept in as I raised the Master. One, and the most obvious, I could turn the Master back down. Two, I could lower Mz. Or three, I could attenuate the force output at the wheel level. If you're trying to push more into the FFB, then option one is counter productive, because it basically means you can't go any further with it. Option two was the most benign/surgical fix, as the small decrease required to remove the grinding didn't affect any of the others forces and left the general feel in tact. Option three, however, not only removed the grinding, but also changed the feel of the wheel. So basically, it's worth noting that adjusting the Master Scale and attenuating the force at the wheel are not the same. Which makes sense (assuming I'm understanding it correctly), because adjusting the Master Scale just affects the tire forces going into the spindle, but not the general FF. So, in that scenario, lowering the Master would allow FF to assert more influence over the final output. But when you attenuate at the wheel level, you're adjusting the final output and the FF/TF balance remains intact. I tested this by setting the Master to 36 and running the wheel at 100, and then raising the Master to 40 and running the wheel at 90. The latter combination felt much better, and had me running easily .500 faster.

Anyway...that's all I got, for now. :)

Interesting.

I don't know what you mean by "TF/FF = 100/50 ", and "FF//TF balance". TF = Tireforce, FF = ?. (is a CWSv2 parameter or just "in-game FFB master" as last stage before wheel?).

And if i got you right, you started changing Fyxzm coming from the game's default 100/100/100/100, right? Because your personal settings before were 70/70/130/70 (JS classic?)?.

Assuming that your settings for RAG/RAB/RAC were 0.98/.12/.92. by increasing "Master" (i assume you mean spindle master scale) from 25 (JS classic setting value) to 40 (even 46) you pushed all Fxyzm (100/96/100/100) pretty heftily into the RAC limiter. I wonder that there was much left of details in the higher forces, since RAC compressed everything to the 0.92 output value. In other words saturating all higher forces at that level. By feeding RAG/RAB/RAC with higher Tire Forces than before also means that RAG reacts stronger. However since you prefer 40/90 (instead of 36/100) it seems to me you like a quite saturated wheel when you're cornering (because 36/100 creates less saturation/compression by RAC, and 40/90 a bit more saturation/compression.

tennenbaum
24-01-2016, 16:38
I drove a dozen of laps yesterday after i changed (with reinstall) to patch 8.0. I ran on Watkins short the same lap-times with the Ruf 8 GT3 as with patch 7.0.

Honestly i didn't felt some significant difference. For a second a had the feeling they made positive progresses to reduce the "Pendelum" effect: thus oversteering and the car's back breaks out, and you try to catch it - but you can't :) But even if there is a bit of an achievement (which i think is not) the difficulty to catch a car when he starts to drift is still unrealistically difficult. It is definitely easier to catch the rear braking loose in reality than in the game. I'm really keen to see how they will deal with it with the RADBULL drift car DLC :rolleyes:

And i still have absolutely no idea what they are trying to tell us with this fix:
"Fixed long standing missing functionality in Thrustmaster PS4 implementation -- the ignore device gain setting was not being honoured meaning the soft lock was being applied at the master gain level instead of full gain."

Does anybody know?

What's your feeling how patch 8.0 changed FFB, or the physics in general?

Haiden
24-01-2016, 16:46
Interesting.

I don't know what you mean by "TF/FF = 100/50 ", and "FF//TF balance". TF = Tireforce, FF = ?. (is a CWSv2 parameter or just "in-game FFB master" as last stage before wheel?).

And if i got you right, you started changing Fyxzm coming from the game's default 100/100/100/100, right? Because your personal settings before were 70/70/130/70 (JS classic?)?.

Assuming that your settings for RAG/RAB/RAC were 0.98/.12/.92. by increasing "Master" (i assume you mean spindle master scale) from 25 (JS classic setting value) to 40 (even 46) you pushed all Fxyzm (100/96/100/100) pretty heftily into the RAC limiter. I wonder that there was much left of details in the higher forces, since RAC compressed everything to the 0.92 output value. In other words saturating all higher forces at that level. By feeding RAG/RAB/RAC with higher Tire Forces than before also means that RAG reacts stronger. However since you prefer 40/90 (instead of 36/100) it seems to me you like a quite saturated wheel when you're cornering (because 36/100 creates less saturation/compression by RAC, and 40/90 a bit more saturation/compression.

Hmmm... Not exactly sure where you got those values. But yes TF/FF is referring to the Tire Force and Force Feedback settings in the global configuration. Someone said the FF defaults were different per wheel. If that's true, FF defaults to 50 for the CSW-v2. I haven't used Spade's settings for a while, and I was starting from scratch with the game defaults. The default RAG/RAB/RAC settings are 0.98/0.10/0.96. I just raised the Bleed to 0.12. The default Master Scale is 26. The final in-car adjustments I made with Master Scale at 40 and the CSW-v2's FF set to 90 were Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz = 100/100/100/94.

You're right though. I do like a slightly more saturated wheel, because it feels smoother to me. That's why I leave the FF at the default 50. It's just my opinion, but I'm starting to believe a lot of the "liveliness" I'm feeling in the wheel with other settings is just noise, and not really providing any relevant or beneficial feel. Too much noise interferes with the relevant information. I think this is where personal feel comes in. It's why some guys prefer and swear by running Mz only. I can't understand it, but it works for them. And they are fast, too. Again, just my opinion, but feeling everything isn't as important as feeling the right things--i.e. what you need to control the car. Not everyone utilizes the feedback the same way. Find out what forces benefit you the most, and then work to enhance those. Quality over quantity is almost always a good practice. :)

I still haven't decided what to do with cars that run default SoP, like the FC, which has a default SoP Diff of 50. Not sure whether I'll leave those or zero them out. I'll have to test the cars with and without it later.

Haiden
24-01-2016, 17:16
Also...the fact that lowering the force at the wheel level also eliminated the grinding, seems to suggest that the grinding is more an issue with the application of the Mz forces, and not just the scale settings/balance. If it were just the scale balance, then attenuating the force at the wheel level wouldn't have an affect on the grinding, because, at the wheel level, you're just lowering the final calculated output, not changing the actual balance of the scales.

tennenbaum
24-01-2016, 17:27
Hmmm... Not exactly sure where you got those values. But yes TF/FF is referring to the Tire Force and Force Feedback settings in the global configuration. Someone said the FF defaults were different per wheel. If that's true, FF defaults to 50 for the CSW-v2. I haven't used Spade's settings for a while, and I was starting from scratch with the game defaults. The default RAG/RAB/RAC settings are 0.98/0.10/0.96. I just raised the Bleed to 0.12. The default Master Scale is 26. The final in-car adjustments I made with Master Scale at 40 and the CSW-v2's FF set to 90 were Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz = 100/100/100/94.

You're right though. I do like a slightly more saturated wheel, because it feels smoother to me. That's why I leave the FF at the default 50. It's just my opinion, but I'm starting to believe a lot of the "liveliness" I'm feeling in the wheel with other settings is just noise, and not really providing any relevant or beneficial feel. Too much noise interferes with the relevant information. I think this is where personal feel comes in. It's why some guys prefer and swear by running Mz only. I can't understand it, but it works for them. And they are fast, too. Again, just my opinion, but feeling everything isn't as important as feeling the right things--i.e. what you need to control the car. Not everyone utilizes the feedback the same way. Find out what forces benefit you the most, and then work to enhance those. Quality over quantity is almost always a good practice. :)

I still haven't decided what to do with cars that run default SoP, like the FC, which has a default SoP Diff of 50. Not sure whether I'll leave those or zero them out. I'll have to test the cars with and without it later.

Thanks for your explanations! (About the values that i assumed, i thought you used JS classic. I might have gotten that wrong.)
But are you considering to use Fyxzm values now that are around 100/100/100/100?

tennenbaum
24-01-2016, 17:33
Also...the fact that lowering the force at the wheel level also eliminated the grinding, seems to suggest that the grinding is more an issue with the application of the Mz forces, and not just the scale settings/balance. If it were just the scale balance, then attenuating the force at the wheel level wouldn't have an affect on the grinding, because, at the wheel level, you're just lowering the final calculated output, not changing the actual balance of the scales.

When and why the grinding occurs is mostly a mystery to me too. "Grinding" i mean like having "sand in the wheel". I saw it happening when Fy competes / rivals with Mz (due to the fact that Fy is an "inverse" force: delivering a torque opposite to the direction of torque from Mz ). Grinding as high frequency oscillating can also happen when Fy and Fz(Mz) values can be divided by even numbers. it goes away if you set values to "odd" numbers, so the division/ratio doesn't result in even numbers. Beside that Fy and Mz tend to grind by itself at higher values. That's why i use alway a damping on Mz (minimum 10, sometimes more.) And some cars grind terribly without reason, and it can also happen with Fx... I agree with you on the "noise". It's often mistaken as a "lively" wheel. Instead it's often oscillating that can be damped and/or RAG effects and/or high frequency "broken clippings". In so far, yes, often more is less. But i'm carried away...;)

Haiden
24-01-2016, 17:43
When and why the grinding occurs is a mystery to me too. "Grinding" i mean like having "sand in the wheel".

Yep. Same here. But it seems to be a combination of Mz and the Master Scale setting. The same Mz value can be fine at lowering settings. Raise the Master, you get grinding, and then have to lower the Mz scale. Might also be different from wheel to wheel. On my T300, I remember the feeling being even less tolerable, more sandy.

Haiden
24-01-2016, 21:57
But are you considering to use Fyxzm values now that are around 100/100/100/100?
Yes. That's where I am right now. Through our discussions here and my own testing, I've come to think that once you find the right global settings, the in-car settings just need a few fine tuning adjustments, based on where you set your master scale and what forces are important to you.

morpwr
24-01-2016, 23:25
I drove a dozen of laps yesterday after i changed (with reinstall) to patch 8.0. I ran on Watkins short the same lap-times with the Ruf 8 GT3 as with patch 7.0.

Honestly i didn't felt some significant difference. For a second a had the feeling they made positive progresses to reduce the "Pendelum" effect: thus oversteering and the car's back breaks out, and you try to catch it - but you can't :) But even if there is a bit of an achievement (which i think is not) the difficulty to catch a car when he starts to drift is still unrealistically difficult. It is definitely easier to catch the rear braking loose in reality than in the game. I'm really keen to see how they will deal with it with the RADBULL drift car DLC :rolleyes:

And i still have absolutely no idea what they are trying to tell us with this fix:
"Fixed long standing missing functionality in Thrustmaster PS4 implementation -- the ignore device gain setting was not being honoured meaning the soft lock was being applied at the master gain level instead of full gain."

Does anybody know?

What's your feeling how patch 8.0 changed FFB, or the physics in general?

I have no idea what that means either but something changed. This is the first time I can actually feel all the forces clearly. Especially on braking and going up and down hills. I'm actually not sure if its from that or the tire model or a combination of both. Pretty much default ffb values. If it had come out like this we wouldn't be talking about it 7 months later.lol

tennenbaum
25-01-2016, 05:40
I have no idea what that means either but something changed. This is the first time I can actually feel all the forces clearly. Especially on braking and going up and down hills. I'm actually not sure if its from that or the tire model or a combination of both. Pretty much default ffb values. If it had come out like this we wouldn't be talking about it 7 months later.lol

The devs copy pasted Grimeys settings - done :D

PureMalt77
25-01-2016, 07:30
I'm also experiencing a positive change after this patch and a fresh start. The default for the T300RS are not bad at all. I ended up only changing the Menu Spring (40), DRR (0,14), DRF (5 clicks from zero), Scoop Knee (0,69), Scoop Reduction (0,25) and TF (95).

I really wished SMS would split car-setup and FFB so I can reset them separately, or even save like FFB for all tracks leaving the rest of car setup per track. When working on car setup, many times I reset and start from scratch, and hate to adjust the FFB all over again. Besides, I want globals I can simply jump into any car and drive, and only mess with in-car FFB for cars I really like or use a lot. But the latest findings from Haiden above are worth trying, next on my list...

inthebagbud
25-01-2016, 07:44
Yes. That's where I am right now. Through our discussions here and my own testing, I've come to think that once you find the right global settings, the in-car settings just need a few fine tuning adjustments, based on where you set your master scale and what forces are important to you.

That is a complete departure from all discussions and one i had recently come to myself but thought i was thinking a load of rubbish. The in car ffb settings in my opinion do not really make that much dfference. I have been testing for last 3/4 days the in game settings and can drive basically within .25 of a second with any of the settings listed here. What makes the difference is the global settings/spindle master and if they are too high they "drown out" the in car settings. The difference in the car settings even if you have major differences between settings doesn't appear to be that great

However I still do find that the in car settings you settle on for one car do not translate to other cars. As an example most drivers in this thread have been driving Watkins glen and the ruf. Take those in car settings and use the BMW group 5 at hockenhien short.... the ffb is nothing compared to the ruf.

OK it's a different era car but going back to the discussion earlier that if the internal ffb represents our internal senses, we shouldn't have to change our internal senses every time we get in a different car. The game tyre model should be the constant , interpreting the car input, pushing this through the ffb and giving us the feelings we like, (which are different for everybody).

My problem is these 2 statements seem to contradict each other .... we want a one size fits all ffb, which is logical,to me, .....but the game seems to be saying no that's not how it works and ffb is car specific

So we get back to the jack spade v bmanic school of thought on ffb.

Oh and by the way I am still on patch 7 (xbox) so this could all change again in a few days !

PureMalt77
25-01-2016, 10:42
My problem is these 2 statements seem to contradict each other .... we want a one size fits all ffb, which is logical,to me, .....but the game seems to be saying no that's not how it works and ffb is car specific

So we get back to the jack spade v bmanic school of thought on ffb.

I just posted before a wish for SMS to split car-setup (mechanics) from FFB, but maybe that explains it all...
I'm afraid it even goes further than that: should FFB be adjusted not only per car, but car setup? For instance, changing Caster would require changing some of the Fxyz params to make you "feel" the physics better? I don't wanna go down that road :confused:

could_do_better
25-01-2016, 10:51
With the limited range of torque available in a consumer wheel, if you have the FFB linked to the physics then changing the configuration is going to change the FFB. Small changes should be manageable within one FFB setting, but in a sim shouldn't it be the case that if you change the balance of the car you can feel it?

It may be frustrating but it's kind of the point of a sim. If you change the tire pressure from 2 bar to 1 bar wouldn't you expect the contact patch to grow and therefore the ffb to become heavier?

Having said that once you've got a decent baseline FFB then small setup changes should only give a different feel to the FFB not completely invalidate the settings. If small setup changes are invalidating the FFB, I'd suggest the FFB is set up way to aggressively with no headroom.

Haiden
25-01-2016, 11:42
I'm also experiencing a positive change after this patch and a fresh start. The default for the T300RS are not bad at all. I ended up only changing the Menu Spring (40), DRR (0,14), DRF (5 clicks from zero), Scoop Knee (0,69), Scoop Reduction (0,25) and TF (95).

I really wished SMS would split car-setup and FFB so I can reset them separately, or even save like FFB for all tracks leaving the rest of car setup per track. When working on car setup, many times I reset and start from scratch, and hate to adjust the FFB all over again. Besides, I want globals I can simply jump into any car and drive, and only mess with in-car FFB for cars I really like or use a lot. But the latest findings from Haiden above are worth trying, next on my list...

That's something I really like about these current settings--the convenience. I only have two in-car FFB scales to change.


OK it's a different era car but going back to the discussion earlier that if the internal ffb represents our internal senses, we shouldn't have to change our internal senses every time we get in a different car. The game tyre model should be the constant , interpreting the car input, pushing this through the ffb and giving us the feelings we like, (which are different for everybody).

My problem is these 2 statements seem to contradict each other .... we want a one size fits all ffb, which is logical,to me, .....but the game seems to be saying no that's not how it works and ffb is car specific

So we get back to the jack spade v bmanic school of thought on ffb.


I just posted before a wish for SMS to split car-setup (mechanics) from FFB, but maybe that explains it all...
I'm afraid it even goes further than that: should FFB be adjusted not only per car, but car setup? For instance, changing Caster would require changing some of the Fxyz params to make you "feel" the physics better? I don't wanna go down that road :confused:


With the limited range of torque available in a consumer wheel, if you have the FFB linked to the physics then changing the configuration is going to change the FFB. Small changes should be manageable within one FFB setting, but in a sim shouldn't it be the case that if you change the balance of the car you can feel it?

I think we have to remember that a little bit of it depends on one's play style/goals. If you're mostly an offline single player that looking to simulate reality, then having one FFB setup might be more ideal. Drive an Audi, you get tight responsive steering and particular feel of road texture. Drive a Mercedes, the steering feels different, as does the road texture. A Ford is less responsive than both. Is the difference between the feel of the cars 100% accurate in the game? I doubt it. But the fact that you can't feel everything the same way in every car, using the same FFB settings, doesn't surprise me. Lately, though, I've been wondering whether or not I should create FFB setups by class to handle these differences. By car is too much hassle for me. I want something I can remember easily without having to refer to notes when I hop in a new car. However, with the latest changes in patch 8.0, I'll need to play around more before I decide whether or not to make FFB setups per car.

Now, if you do a lot of competitive online racing, your FFB needs are different. You want to feel everything you can in every car, because you're competing and can't afford not to. For that type of player, having different FFB setups per car makes sense. In fact, it would even make sense if they had different setups per car and track to compensate for their different suspension setups.

Most games don't offer the flexibility of PCars, so whether your an offline or online racer, you don't have to make any FFB choices beyond the few FFB related sliders they provide--usually strength and weight. One of PCars' issues has always been it's openness and flexibility. Not because flexibility is bad, but because people aren't used to playing style having such an influence on the choices you make, regarding settings. Offline players are listening to competitive online racers about what's important and how things should feel per car and vice-versa, but neither is taking their style into consideration.

inthebagbud
25-01-2016, 12:17
I thought when I wrote my post that the translation from brain to keyboard may be a little difficult


With the limited range of torque available in a consumer wheel, if you have the FFB linked to the physics then changing the configuration is going to change the FFB. Small changes should be manageable within one FFB setting, but in a sim shouldn't it be the case that if you change the balance of the car you can feel it?

It may be frustrating but it's kind of the point of a sim. If you change the tire pressure form 2 bar to 1 bar wouldn't you expect the contact patch to grow and therefore the ffb to be come heavier?

Having dais that once you've got a decent baseline FFB then small setup changes should only give a different feel to the FFB not completely invalidate the settings. If small changes are invalidating the FFB changes, I'd suggest the FFB is set up way to aggressively with no headroom.

I agree that you should be able to feel changes and car setups should alter your ffb feeling and my point is that you should be able to settle on an FFB setting and use this across the car range and not have to change your ffb each time you make a setting change



I think we have to remember that a little bit of it depends on one's play style/goals. If you're mostly an offline single player that looking to simulate reality, then having one FFB setup might be more ideal. Drive an Audi, you get tight responsive steering and particular feel of road texture. Drive a Mercedes, the steering feels different, as does the road texture. A Ford is less responsive than both. Is the difference between the feel of the cars 100% accurate in the game? I doubt it. But the fact that you can't feel everything the same way in every car, using the same FFB settings, doesn't surprise me. Lately, though, I've been wondering whether or not I should create FFB setups by class to handle these differences. By car is too much hassle for me. I want something I can remember easily without having to refer to notes when I hop in a new car. However, with the latest changes in patch 8.0, I'll need to play around more before I decide whether or not to make FFB setups per car.

Now, if you do a lot of competitive online racing, your FFB needs are different. You want to feel everything you can in every car, because you're competing and can't afford not to. For that type of player, having different FFB setups per car makes sense. In fact, it would even make sense if they had different setups per car and track to compensate for their different suspension setups.

Most games don't offer the flexibility of PCars, so whether your an offline or online racer, you don't have to make any FFB choices beyond the few FFB related sliders they provide--usually strength and weight. One of PCars' issues has always been it's openness and flexibility. Not because flexibility is bad, but because people aren't used to playing style having such an influence on the choices you make, regarding settings. Offline players are listening to competitive online racers about what's important and how things should feel per car and vice-versa, but neither is taking their style into consideration.

I cannot believe that the intention is to have an ffb setting per car ( although we do have JS settings !), you do not change your body sense each time you get in a different car - your body interprets the different feel from the car (tyres/suspension/road feel) and surely this is the point of the FFB to be the replacement of your senses

Why would you change your ffb just because you have changed your suspension - you wouldn't change your senses in real life as you would want to feel that change and as such in the game if you changed the ffb would this potentially not be masking an issue with the setup

I want to have an ffb and know that if I make a change that upsets the car characteristics that I can feel this - I wouldn't want to change the ffb to hide this or compensate for this would I


I just posted before a wish for SMS to split car-setup (mechanics) from FFB, but maybe that explains it all...
I'm afraid it even goes further than that: should FFB be adjusted not only per car, but car setup? For instance, changing Caster would require changing some of the Fxyz params to make you "feel" the physics better? I don't wanna go down that road :confused:

I do wish the car ffb was at least separate for resetting purposes as it is a pain that setup and ffb are both reset


The overall issue is that there is no benchmark to work from and each time we seem to decide on an FFB setting for a particular car - this is fine for a couple of weeks/months while we use that car but as soon as we change car we are back to the "wtf" happened to my ffb question and we start all over again

could_do_better
25-01-2016, 12:59
I do run the same base FFB settings on every car (No tweakers BUT I also have not driven all the cars) and I'm reasonably happy with the feel. The only observation I have the Renault's seem out of balance with all the the other cars, so with my base FFB settings, the Renault's all have very light FFB, for example in the Clio I had to move the Master Scale from 26 to 34, and similarly with the Formula Renault and the RS 0.1.

Haiden
25-01-2016, 13:18
I cannot believe that the intention is to have an ffb setting per car ( although we do have JS settings !), you do not change your body sense each time you get in a different car - your body interprets the different feel from the car (tyres/suspension/road feel) and surely this is the point of the FFB to be the replacement of your senses

Why would you change your ffb just because you have changed your suspension - you wouldn't change your senses in real life as you would want to feel that change and as such in the game if you changed the ffb would this potentially not be masking an issue with the setup

I want to have an ffb and know that if I make a change that upsets the car characteristics that I can feel this - I wouldn't want to change the ffb to hide this or compensate for this would I

The overall issue is that there is no benchmark to work from and each time we seem to decide on an FFB setting for a particular car - this is fine for a couple of weeks/months while we use that car but as soon as we change car we are back to the "wtf" happened to my ffb question and we start all over again

I don't disagree with you. I want to use the same FFB across all cars, for the exact reasons you stated. All I was trying to point out was that, if you're seriously into competitive online racing, I could see why you would want to change it. If winning is the objective/priority, why would you accept a loss of feel--even if it's the car's natural characteristic--when you're about to compete in a race and you know you have the ability to get that feeling back? If the wheel is too light, or you're not feeling enough understeer or braking, and you need those things to be competitive, why not adjust the scales to bring those forces out a little more? If that's not a concern for you--like it doesn't seem to be for you or me--then don't bother changing it. But the real beauty of PCars is that it wasn't made for a single kind of gamer/racer/mindset. It's made for you to use it however you see fit, in whatever way suits your playing styles and priorities. :)

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 13:46
The devs copy pasted Grimeys settings - done :D

??? What Happened??? I've been Shoveling Snow All Weekend:mad: What did i Miss???

Apoov
25-01-2016, 14:08
Using the same FFB settings is not the best way to go IMO, although it's tempting to keep things simple. Remember that there are so much small variations and differences that are not simulated in game but make a huge difference on how the car behaves. Take power steering for example. FFB is the only way you can achieve the difference.

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 14:18
With the limited range of torque available in a consumer wheel, if you have the FFB linked to the physics then changing the configuration is going to change the FFB. Small changes should be manageable within one FFB setting, but in a sim shouldn't it be the case that if you change the balance of the car you can feel it?

It may be frustrating but it's kind of the point of a sim. If you change the tire pressure form 2 bar to 1 bar wouldn't you expect the contact patch to grow and therefore the ffb to be come heavier?

Having said that once you've got a decent baseline FFB then small setup changes should only give a different feel to the FFB not completely invalidate the settings. If small changes are invalidating the FFB changes, I'd suggest the FFB is set up way to aggressively with no headroom.

Exactly... Thats why i drive all the Cars with Same in Car FFB and Stock Suspension...

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 14:46
8.0 seems to have changed something... I cant figurr out what it is yet but its a Change for the Better!!!

I Now find that i Like More "Fx" in the in car FFB and My Lap Times Have improved because of that!!! 8.0 and adding more "Fx" seems to have added the Middle Ground Feeling in Cornering Feel... Hard to Explain it but im faster in and out of L to R Curves and Sweepers... Im still trying to figure out exactly what changed with "Fx" so i can blend it in with My other in car FFB settings to maximize this New Better Feel.

I dont know what it is yet but it has made My Lap times go down .250 to .500 on a Few Tracks...Problem is the Added "Fx" doesn't feel Natural to me yet... Maybe im just used to driving with it at 2.00... More "Fx" Feel is Definily better i just Need to blend it to feel More Natural to Me... Tested on a few Different cars and "Fx" feel has definitly improved...Made Driving the LMP1 Toyota feel like it was riding on Rails!!! the Car turns sooo Good Now i couldn't even get a Charge on the Kers because i only Need Tap the Brakes or Gear Down and Gun it through Most corners!!! I set a Really Good time on the Watkins Short LB with it!!!

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 15:47
Yes. That's where I am right now. Through our discussions here and my own testing, I've come to think that once you find the right global settings, the in-car settings just need a few fine tuning adjustments, based on where you set your master scale and what forces are important to you.

Exactly... Agree 100%!!! I've been saying this for Months...LOL... Just Read the First page of the thread... The FFB should Not have to Change from Car to Car... I see the FFB as Static Non Changing Like the Road, Bumps, Curbs ETC... The Cars are Dynamic each Car Will handle Bumps, Curbs etc differently according to its handling characterisics...Thats what gives each Car its own Unigue Feel, Strengths and Weaknesses. My thing is if you want the car to Handle better thats what suspension tuning is for!!! Changing the In Car FFB per car as some do can only yeild a canned FFB placebo Effect.

The Mz is the only FFB that i consider changing per Car Class for cars below GT3.

Gt4 the cars are tuned Street Racer Vehicles and th steering is Not as Sharp and Snappy so i Reduce MZ until the feel is Natural to the car for Me.

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 16:12
However I still do find that the in car settings you settle on for one car do not translate to other cars. As an example most drivers in this thread have been driving Watkins glen and the ruf. Take those in car settings and use the BMW group 5 at hockenhien short.... the ffb is nothing compared to the ruf.

OK it's a different era car but going back to the discussion earlier that if the internal ffb represents our internal senses, we shouldn't have to change our internal senses every time we get in a different car. The game tyre model should be the constant , interpreting the car input, pushing this through the ffb and giving us the feelings we like, (which are different for everybody).

So we get back to the jack spade v bmanic school of thought on ffb.

Oh and by the way I am still on patch 7 (xbox) so this could all change again in a few days !

The Reason i do Most testing in the Gt3 Ruf is because its a Very Unruley Car to drive Fast...it is by far the Most difficult car to handle in Gt3 class IMO....

The Reason i Test at Watkins Is because its a very Fast bumpy track with Many Tricky Curve Combos... These same Curves apear in Many Tracks in different combinations...once i set the FFB there i find that i can run any track and Get Good times just some Tracks have a less Bumpy feel to them.... The only Track i find thats Difficult to tame is Nubergring but that track is a Beast of its own kind:hurt:
and i think thats because i sooo familiar with it on other racing Games that i try to drive it the same as i would in Ex: Forza, Assetto Corsa and its just Not the same because the bumps in PCars Version will throw!!! your car way off Line... also some of the Turns/Corners seem to be Steeper and i try to take them too Fast... so i think i just have to learn the PCars version of the track.

I Have also Driven that BMW with the same FFB tune and it did Not Feel Bad it was actually Good... i just had to Respect the cars Limits and Drive within them.... Also Hockenheim is a pretty smoothntrack compaired to Watkins so the FFB is going to feel Much Tamer i Race the Ruf Gt3 there alot on line.

Edit: 8.0 made small subtle Changes... i think the Grip is better Now like it was in 6.0.... and "Fx" feels like its been adjusted to give better feel other than that everything else seems the same.

P1ckN1cker2406
25-01-2016, 16:14
8.0 seems to have changed something... I cant figurr out what it is yet but its a Change for the Better!!!

I Now find that i Like More "Fx" in the in car FFB and My Lap Times Have improved because of that!!! 8.0 and adding more "Fx" seems to have added the Middle Ground Feeling in Cornering Feel... Hard to Explain it but im faster in and out of L to R Curves and Sweepers... Im still trying to figure out exactly what changed with "Fx" so i can blend it in with My other in car FFB settings to maximize this New Better Feel.

I dont know what it is yet but it has made My Lap times go down .250 to .500 on a Few Tracks...Problem is the Added "Fx" doesn't feel Natural to me yet... Maybe im just used to driving with it at 2.00... More "Fx" Feel is Definily better i just Need to blend it to feel More Natural to Me... Tested on a few Different cars and "Fx" feel has definitly improved...Made Driving the LMP1 Toyota feel like it was riding on Rails!!! the Car turns sooo Good Now i couldn't even get a Charge on the Kers because i only Need Tap the Brakes or Gear Down and Gun it through Most corners!!! I set a Really Good time on the Watkins Short LB with it!!!

You´re faster beacause with 8.0 the Tires finally have Grip again. My Lap Times are better too with 8.0 but i didn´t change anything on my FFB Settings or Car Setup. Cars drive also much better with 8.0 and much more realistic. Due to the fact that the Tires have Grip again, FFB feels also better without changing anything.

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 16:36
You´re faster beacause with 8.0 the Tires finally have Grip again. My Lap Times are better too with 8.0 but i didn´t change anything on my FFB Settings or Car Setup. Cars drive also much better with 8.0 and much more realistic. Due to the fact that the Tires have Grip again, FFB feels also better without changing anything.

The Fx setting seems to Give Much better Turning Feel Now... This is a Big Help... I Ran Laps to Compair My Regular 2.00 "Fx" setting with using a tad bit More "Fx" and i get Better Laps using the Higher "Fx" setting Now.... Before the "Fx" took away more feel than it gave IMO... Now it gives Much better Feel i have to balance it with my other settings... Nothing Extreem im still testing to see where it feels best to me... i went from a 2.00 to 6.00 and gained .250 to .500 on a few tracks!!! All Testing done on Stock untuned Car suspension.

gotdirt410sprintcar
25-01-2016, 16:38
Maybe they tamed the fx down some or again the tire fix might have a difference

Haiden
25-01-2016, 16:46
Updated my settings after this weekend's testing. The bold and coloring represents value changed since my last update. But in comparison to the default settings, the only changes I actually made were to the following values.

Global Settings:
Relative Adjust Bleed = 0.12

In-Car FFB:
Master Scale = 40
Mz = 94

CSW-v2 Wheel FF: 90


Don't know if it's the 8.0 update or the complete reinstall, but those are the only three changes I made to the PCars settings, and I am now almost a full second faster on my favorite track, using the default mechanical setup. :D

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1205147&viewfull=1#post1205147

For now, I'm going to leave the SoP at the default settings per car. SMS has different default SoP settings for some cars. Most (at least of the ones I drive) are set to zero, but I've noticed SoP Diff settings of 50 in the FC, and 100 in one of the Lotus 78s. I'm assuming there are others, and that SMS did this for a reason, so, at least for now, whenever I see SoP Diff values being used, I'll just adjust the SoP Scale to match my Master Scale, and go with whatever setting SMS has set. I haven't come across any cars with default SoP Lat or SoP Damp, but if I do, I plan to zero those out. I don't like SoP Lat, and don't want any dampening.

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 18:41
Updated my settings after this weekend's testing. The bold and coloring represents value changed since my last update. But in comparison to the default settings, the only changes I actually made were to the following values.

Global Settings:
Relative Adjust Bleed = 0.12

In-Car FFB:
Master Scale = 40
Mz = 94

CSW-v2 Wheel FF: 90


Don't know if it's the 8.0 update or the complete reinstall, but those are the only three changes I made to the PCars settings, and I am now almost a full second faster on my favorite track, using the default mechanical setup. :D

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1205147&viewfull=1#post1205147

For now, I'm going to leave the SoP at the default settings per car. SMS has different default SoP settings for some cars. Most (at least of the ones I drive) are set to zero, but I've noticed SoP Diff settings of 50 in the FC, and 100 in one of the Lotus 78s. I'm assuming there are others, and that SMS did this for a reason, so, at least for now, whenever I see SoP Diff values being used, I'll just adjust the SoP Scale to match my Master Scale, and go with whatever setting SMS has set. I haven't come across any cars with default SoP Lat or SoP Damp, but if I do, I plan to zero those out. I don't like SoP Lat, and don't want any dampening.

Those settings should Feel almost exactly same as mine... Your just getting your FFB Power amplified from the Wheel FFB @90 with Higher Game Master FFB(50) and Low in Car Masters(40)... Mine is exactly opposite Lower Game Master FFB (35) Wheel FFB(75) and in car Masters set to 100.... Same tweek just the FFB power is being manupulated from different areas of the FFB system.

Haiden
25-01-2016, 19:14
Those settings should Feel almost exactly same as mine... Your just getting your FFB Power amplified from the Wheel FFB @90 with Higher Game Master FFB(50) and Low in Car Masters(40)... Mine is exactly opposite Lower Game Master FFB (35) Wheel FFB(75) and in car Masters set to 100.... Same tweek just the FFB power is being manupulated from different areas of the FFB system.

Actually they don't. I can't use your settings, because the forces are too hard in the FA. Too much fight in the wheel. And the increase in FF to 50, adds more saturation, which makes my wheel feel a lot smoother than yours. After this last week of testing I think the game and wheel FF are a little different. Reason being, raising or lowering the in-car Master doesn't have the same effect as raising or lowering FF at the wheel level. When you raise the in-car Master you are manipulating the tire forces being sent through the spindle, but not the global FF, so the balance between the two is changed--there's more or less TF, but the underlying saturation/weight stays the same, and vice-vera. When you adjust the wheel FF, you're adjusting the game's final calculated output, which means the in-game TF/FF balance is unchanged. I tested this, by setting the Master Scale 26 and the wheel to 100, and then raising the Master to 36 and lowering the wheel to 90. The differences I felt were more than just strength/weight changes, and my lap times were significantly lower with the 36/90 setting. I don't know... Make sense to me though, considering how FF and TF are being handled in the game.

tennenbaum
25-01-2016, 19:46
I just posted before a wish for SMS to split car-setup (mechanics) from FFB, but maybe that explains it all...
I'm afraid it even goes further than that: should FFB be adjusted not only per car, but car setup? For instance, changing Caster would require changing some of the Fxyz params to make you "feel" the physics better? I don't wanna go down that road :confused:

indeed! your question/request aims at the core of the problem: after 9 months of time for the devs to follow the posts (or even by not reading any of it) they must "come out of the closet" and make a statement. Either by saying this this is what we think our FFB represents best of how our physics engine shall be felt by FFB, or they shall clearly say: we don't wan't to do that because FFB is a personal, individual experience, and we give you the freedom to set it up to your likings. Everything in between starts to smell fishy to me.

pCars is great (may be because of the mass development) but i start to doubt if they are serious about proper documentation of their game. Come on, all of us solved bigger challenges during the last 9 months than just making a "suitable" statement to the "fans" and contributors that gives some directions. I guess they got caught in "spaghethi code" and want to hide that, before their next financing round got finished.

tennenbaum
25-01-2016, 19:53
Exactly... Agree 100%!!! I've been saying this for Months...LOL... Just Read the First page of the thread... The FFB should Not have to Change from Car to Car... I see the FFB as Static Non Changing Like the Road, Bumps, Curbs ETC... The Cars are Dynamic each Car Will handle Bumps, Curbs etc differently according to its handling characterisics...Thats what gives each Car its own Unigue Feel, Strengths and Weaknesses. My thing is if you want the car to Handle better thats what suspension tuning is for!!! Changing the In Car FFB per car as some do can only yeild a canned FFB placebo Effect.

The Mz is the only FFB that i consider changing per Car Class for cars below GT3.

Gt4 the cars are tuned Street Racer Vehicles and th steering is Not as Sharp and Snappy so i Reduce MZ until the feel is Natural to the car for Me.

That's rigt. Full stop!. And i wanna know about the devs approach to it. the longer they keep quit, the more i believe it got over their heads.

tennenbaum
25-01-2016, 19:56
The Reason i do Most testing in the Gt3 Ruf is because its a Very Unruley Car to drive Fast...it is by far the Most difficult car to handle in Gt3 class IMO....

The Reason i Test at Watkins Is because its a very Fast bumpy track with Many Tricky Curve Combos... These same Curves apear in Many Tracks in different combinations...once i set the FFB there i find that i can run any track and Get Good times just some Tracks have a less Bumpy feel to them.... The only Track i find thats Difficult to tame is Nubergring but that track is a Beast of its own kind:hurt:
and i think thats because i sooo familiar with it on other racing Games that i try to drive it the same as i would in Ex: Forza, Assetto Corsa and its just Not the same because the bumps in PCars Version will throw!!! your car way off Line... also some of the Turns/Corners seem to be Steeper and i try to take them too Fast... so i think i just have to learn the PCars version of the track.

I Have also Driven that BMW with the same FFB tune and it did Not Feel Bad it was actually Good... i just had to Respect the cars Limits and Drive within them.... Also Hockenheim is a pretty smoothntrack compaired to Watkins so the FFB is going to feel Much Tamer i Race the Ruf Gt3 there alot on line.

Edit: 8.0 made small subtle Changes... i think the Grip is better Now like it was in 6.0.... and "Fx" feels like its been adjusted to give better feel other than that everything else seems the same.


"Edit: 8.0 made small subtle Changes... i think the Grip is better Now like it was in 6.0.... and "Fx" feels like its been adjusted to give better feel other than that everything else seems the same."

Yep. thats what patch 8.0 does: not much :D

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 20:32
Actually they don't. I can't use your settings, because the forces are too hard in the FA. Too much fight in the wheel. And the increase in FF to 50, adds more saturation, which makes my wheel feel a lot smoother than yours. After this last week of testing I think the game and wheel FF are a little different. Reason being, raising or lowering the in-car Master doesn't have the same effect as raising or lowering FF at the wheel level. When you raise the in-car Master you are manipulating the tire forces being sent through the spindle, but not the global FF, so the balance between the two is changed--there's more or less TF, but the underlying saturation/weight stays the same. When you adjust the wheel FF, you're adjusting the game's final calculated output, which means the in-game TF/FF balance is unchanged. I tested this, by setting the Master Scale 26 and the wheel to 100, and then raising the Master to 36 and lowering the wheel to 90. The differences I felt were more than just strength/weight changes, and my lap times were significantly lower with the 36/90 setting. I don't know... Make sense to me though, considering how FF and TF are being handled in the game.

Tomato, tomoto either way you pronounce it its the same thing... feels the same to Me... i think the biggest difference is how we set our in car FFB settings and you have smoothing and damping in your global settings.

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 20:55
That's rigt. Full stop!. And i wanna know about the devs approach to it. the longer they keep quit, the more i believe it got over their heads.

It is Not possible that the Devs got in Over their heads...IMO the FFB system is too Advanced for that... The FFB detail is second to None once you find your preferred method of Tweeking...IMO the Devs are taking Notes from Every Tweeker thread, testing every Tweek Posted and Compiling Data to further refine the FFB system with Pcars updates and Pcars2 development.

Its 8 patches in its Not hard to see where they were going with it...IMO with every update the High in Car masters feel gets more and more Refined while the other method just gets more and more math problems that just don't add up... Now don't get me wrong I'm Not saying that 100 in car Masters is a must, What i'm saying is what I've always said... Once you set your global settings the way you like to shape your FFB "Treat the in Car Masters like Volume Controls" turn them up until the FFB Effects strength feels Good to you and that's it.

TF controls wheel "weight"

In car masters set FFB "Effects" strength

Steering gain Blends all FFB forces together as 1

Game master FFB sets final at the wheel FFB strength level

its like setting the Equalizer on your stereo... just turn up the sliders until you get a Good balance... then fine tune + here - there and tadaaa your done:yes:

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 21:05
Ok heres where im at... I've added a tad bit of "Fx" to my Tweek and it Feels better than Ever!!! The Turning is Much smoother with More feel but its especially smoother at the beginning of a turn, that in turn allows you to be smoother the whole turn through.

seems that 8.0 added a slight power increase to the FFB, That combined with the Extra forces increased "Fx" is adding i want to cut the Power of the FFB slightly... there are Two ways i can Go about the power reduction 1) reduce in cars masters to 80 2) turn down the In game Master FFB any thoughts.

PureMalt77
25-01-2016, 21:10
Ok heres where im at... I've added a tad bit of "Fx" to my Tweek and it Feels better than Ever!!! The Turning is Much smoother with More feel but its especially smoother at the beginning of a turn, that in turn allows you to be smoother the whole turn through.

seems that 8.0 added a slight power increase to the FFB, That combined with the Extra forces increased "Fx" is adding i want to cut the Power of the FFB slightly... there are Two ways i can Go about the power reduction 1) reduce in cars masters to 80 2) turn down the In game Master FFB any thoughts.

How much is your tad bit of Fx? Or do you plan to post a new PDF? I think I'm starting to lose track :confused:

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 21:20
How much is your tad bit of Fx? Or do you plan to post a new PDF? I think I'm starting to lose track :confused:

Im still testing but 6.00 with in car masters set to 80 is feeling Really good ATM... .250 to .500 faster!!! on favorite tracks and that's just during testing phase!!!

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 21:25
https://youtu.be/hlP115pUUxc

take a look at this AccuForce wheel review while driving on Nubergring... I dunno where the idea that the wheel is supposed to behave calm and tame while racing on a bumpy track came from:confused: he is using the sim commander wheel FFB set up for wheel FFB.

Look at the fight in His wheel!!! Even on the straights on a bumpy Road he has to fight to contain it!!!

Haiden
25-01-2016, 22:08
That's totally expected on a track like the Nordchleife, as long as the fight is being caused by the track texture. But on a track like Abu Dhabi, you shouldn't have that much fight on the straights, or even in corners. I don't know about others, but the wheel fight I was referring to as negative, was the notchy, jerk/chug that I feel with high Mz or improperly balanced scales. That feeling isn't normal or realistic. It's just the forces out of balance.

Also, if you look at the video, most of his fight is occuring while cornering, going over undulations, curbs or bumpy parts of the track, and under acceleration or heavy braking. That's all totally normal and desired. But when hits certain sections on the straights where he can level out and maintain more balance in the car, he's able to drive it with one hand with minimal vibration. He's also using an Accuforce wheel, though. I'm sure the force is cranked much higher than you'll ever run a T300 or CSW-v2. There's good wheel fight (influenced/caused by track details), and then there's bad wheel fight (strange chugging, jerking, and/or oscillations that have nothing to do with the track texture or car balance). If you're running a high end direct drive wheel, then you can crank it up so that even the smallest forces become something to contend with and feel more realistic. But if you're running a TM or Fanatec wheel, you're not going to get F1 level forces. You can get them pretty strong, but you have to maintain a certain degree of balance; otherwise the spectrum is just full of noise. It might feel more lively, but, IMO, not all of it is useful information.

inthebagbud
25-01-2016, 22:15
indeed! your question/request aims at the core of the problem: after 9 months of time for the devs to follow the posts (or even by not reading any of it) they must "come out of the closet" and make a statement. Either by saying this this is what we think our FFB represents best of how our physics engine shall be felt by FFB, or they shall clearly say: we don't wan't to do that because FFB is a personal, individual experience, and we give you the freedom to set it up to your likings. Everything in between starts to smell fishy to me.

pCars is great (may be because of the mass development) but i start to doubt if they are serious about proper documentation of their game. Come on, all of us solved bigger challenges during the last 9 months than just making a "suitable" statement to the "fans" and contributors that gives some directions. I guess they got caught in "spaghethi code" and want to hide that, before their next financing round got finished.

I have never understood why sms has kept quiet on the ffb issue. It has been the most talked about subject from day one and still is top of the thread list 9 months on.

Business wise it just doesn't make sense and gives the impression that sms actually don't know/understand what they have created, surely if you create something you should know how x, y, z interact and be able to provide people with a structreed set of instructions. This just feels like a few guys got together and created something then signed an agreement that none of them can actually discuss it.

I am not too sure if I have ever witnessed sms or a mod comment on a ffb issue and the vacuum this leaves is ridiculous and I am sure turns people away from the game ....

Anyway think that is my last blast on ffb as my stats say 70% engineering time and 30% playing which is crazy for something I bought to have fun with .......... actually like patch 8 way better than 7 ...... although you are not having it in writing as I may back :D

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 23:28
soo far with 8.0 these are the changes i made to the FFB tweek.
Yup your seeing it correctly :stupid: I lowered the In car masters from 100 to 80:yes: LOL:p i will run this until the weekend to test it but sooo far My times are down .500 with these changes:applause: I think its just that tad bit of "Fx"... It makes cornering smoother... but if add too much and i lose feel:no: it couldn't just be the extra grip because 6.0 had the same or more grip and my times were slower than these im running now.... Shrugggs i dunno:confused:


TF = 98

spindle master scale = 80 *Note i like strong FFB Effects but the Masters can be + or - to your wheel or personal FFB tastehttp://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/smilies/tickyes.png
+ or - until feel is right for you:victorious:
Fx = 6.01
Fy = 30.00
Fz = 100.01
Mz= 100.01


arm angle = 1500

SoP master scale = 80 This tweek can be run with or without SoP
SoP Lat = 10
SoP Diff = 100
SoP Damp = 0

RAG .98
RAB .12
RAC .92

SCHI = 0
SCFO = 0

SK = 0.68
SR = 0.18

Menu Spring = 0.25
Low Speed Spring Coefficient = 0.75
Low speed Steering saturation = 1.00

Steering gain = 1.00

Game Master FFB (PS4) = 35

Edit: There are just too many dam ways to tweek the FFB and they all feel good same or similar!!! im going to have a Race off against my self on Nubergring My fastest FFB on The Ring wins!!!

all this may change again by the weekend:confused:

The detail with the 100 masters is sooo Sharp and Crisp!!! Dam it i cant Choose!!! i use Low fx,Fy & soP lat so that 100 master really brings it out!!! the 80 is good but Not as detailed. the power of choice is Not always a good thing!!!

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 23:37
I have never understood why sms has kept quiet on the ffb issue. It has been the most talked about subject from day one and still is top of the thread list 9 months on.

Business wise it just doesn't make sense and gives the impression that sms actually don't know/understand what they have created, surely if you create something you should know how x, y, z interact and be able to provide people with a structreed set of instructions. This just feels like a few guys got together and created something then signed an agreement that none of them can actually discuss it.

I am not too sure if I have ever witnessed sms or a mod comment on a ffb issue and the vacuum this leaves is ridiculous and I am sure turns people away from the game ....

Anyway think that is my last blast on ffb as my stats say 70% engineering time and 30% playing which is crazy for something I bought to have fun with .......... actually like patch 8 way better than 7 ...... although you are not having it in writing as I may back :D


SMS is playing it smart... they are going to let the people squabble and figure it out.... if they pick sides or set a FFB Standard Now it will be just like 6.0 1/3rd of the people will be Mad and argue about what we dunno but that's just the way it goes:confused:, 1/3rd will get Mad and say Pcars is Not a true Sim:mad:, the other 3rd will be happy sitting with Smug Grins on their faces:o

Haiden
25-01-2016, 23:37
Anyway think that is my last blast on ffb as my stats say 70% engineering time and 30% playing which is crazy for something I bought to have fun with .......... actually like patch 8 way better than 7 ...... although you are not having it in writing as I may back :D

226012

Amen, brother! :)

GrimeyDog
25-01-2016, 23:55
226012

Amen, brother! :)

Question what car Class do you race Most???.. it the Formula A and open wheel cars right???

morpwr
26-01-2016, 01:40
I have never understood why sms has kept quiet on the ffb issue. It has been the most talked about subject from day one and still is top of the thread list 9 months on.

Business wise it just doesn't make sense and gives the impression that sms actually don't know/understand what they have created, surely if you create something you should know how x, y, z interact and be able to provide people with a structreed set of instructions. This just feels like a few guys got together and created something then signed an agreement that none of them can actually discuss it.

I am not too sure if I have ever witnessed sms or a mod comment on a ffb issue and the vacuum this leaves is ridiculous and I am sure turns people away from the game ....

Anyway think that is my last blast on ffb as my stats say 70% engineering time and 30% playing which is crazy for something I bought to have fun with .......... actually like patch 8 way better than 7 ...... although you are not having it in writing as I may back :D

Same here I have way more time in engineering. Which is bad as I'm really rusty and have spent so little time actually running tracks. I did actually sit down for a couple hours tonight and just turned laps on tracks I haven't really used before.

gotdirt410sprintcar
26-01-2016, 02:37
Actually they don't. I can't use your settings, because the forces are too hard in the FA. Too much fight in the wheel. And the increase in FF to 50, adds more saturation, which makes my wheel feel a lot smoother than yours. After this last week of testing I think the game and wheel FF are a little different. Reason being, raising or lowering the in-car Master doesn't have the same effect as raising or lowering FF at the wheel level. When you raise the in-car Master you are manipulating the tire forces being sent through the spindle, but not the global FF, so the balance between the two is changed--there's more or less TF, but the underlying saturation/weight stays the same, and vice-vera. When you adjust the wheel FF, you're adjusting the game's final calculated output, which means the in-game TF/FF balance is unchanged. I tested this, by setting the Master Scale 26 and the wheel to 100, and then raising the Master to 36 and lowering the wheel to 90. The differences I felt were more than just strength/weight changes, and my lap times were significantly lower with the 36/90 setting. I don't know... Make sense to me though, considering how FF and TF are being handled in the game.
I might test this tonight and see what difference there is but don't it just feel the same you just do it the other way around but I will try it and see. And yes FA or any of those cars at 100 master will kill the wheel in no time no reason for that there already wild with 30 master.

Nice car grim snowy pick and car be better lol did you get any snow?

Haiden
26-01-2016, 04:26
Question what car Class do you race Most???.. it the Formula A and open wheel cars right???

Yep. Formula A and LMP1, although I haven't gotten much time with the LMPs lately. It's pretty much been FA for a few months straight. I like to race GT4s (especially the Toyota Rocket Bunny) down the Azure coast for fun though--six cars races.


I might test this tonight and see what difference there is but don't it just feel the same you just do it the other way around but I will try it and see. And yes FA or any of those cars at 100 master will kill the wheel in no time no reason for that there already wild with 30 master.

I don't know, but it just feels different to me--not a night and day difference, but it felt better with the wheel attenuation, and there was also a difference in my laps times. Give it a shot. Interested to know if you feel anything.

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 08:52
Yep. Formula A and LMP1, although I haven't gotten much time with the LMPs lately. It's pretty much been FA for a few months straight. I like to race GT4s (especially the Toyota Rocket Bunny) down the Azure coast for fun though--six cars races.



I don't know, but it just feels different to me--not a night and day difference, but it felt better with the wheel attenuation, and there was also a difference in my laps times. Give it a shot. Interested to know if you feel anything.

Thats the Difference... I think they Screwed up the Formula A Cars!!! Those Cars Wobble with any Settings but Stock... They Need their Own FFB settings... I did come up with a Good Formula A FFB but i have to look if i wrote it down... Im sure i can Duplicate it No Problem... Im Not too big on Formula A cars so because everything else drives fine i havent been back to Tweeking them, i just pop in F1 2015 when i want to Race F1 cars.... Formula B, the Lotus Pack Cars and the other open wheel Cars work just fine...its Onlythe Fornula A cars that have that Horrible Oscillation problem... Im pretty sure i Noted that in the PDF.

Formula A is the Only Car that i have to change the FFB!!! Now i undestand why your feel is Different its the Car!!! I drive everything But Formula A.... the other open wheels and Proto Type drive Fine!!! The Rocket Bunny is a Blast with My FFB ...Its only F A.... SMS screwed that Car Class.

But thats why we have Different Views on the FFB because of the Cars!!! The Formula A Cars have a design Flaw IMO... They are the ONLY cars that Must be Driven stock FFB because any Changes and they just Feel Horrible!!! I did Find a Good Cure for it but i have to sit and Duplicate it... it wont be hard but its Not stored because i do a Total Reset after every update.

morpwr
26-01-2016, 10:55
Enough FFB for Now...Sit back Relax and have a drink with GDog... Salute:cool:


http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=206058&d=1433422204

You didn't take that this weekend! lol

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 11:08
I might test this tonight and see what difference there is but don't it just feel the same you just do it the other way around but I will try it and see. And yes FA or any of those cars at 100 master will kill the wheel in no time no reason for that there already wild with 30 master.

Nice car grim snowy pick and car be better lol did you get any snow?

The Masters at 100 actually wont Hurt the wheel because the Fx,Fy etc settings are set Very Low... I've been using Masters at 80 for a few days and i Notice that the FFB is Not as Crisp/Sharp and Detailed as when i use 100 Masters... Yup you guessed it im going back to 100 Masters!!!! also i find that the wheel Center Feels a Tad bit Lazy at 80 Masters....When using 100 in Car Masters thats when setting the Game Master FFB to control the at the wheel Power Level becomes very important, I used 35 Game Master FFB for PS4 and 25 for Xbox1....you can set the Game Master FFB to where the at the Wheel FFB Strength feels good to you...For Consol the Game Master FFB would be used the same as the PC controlor Profile Settings IMO.

Also My findings are that using Higher Game Master FFB Creates More Heat... When you Feed the wheel More power than it Needs the extra Current is Grounded out and Released as Heat which is the True Danger to your Wheel... The Extra Heat can cause the Belts to Stretch and wear prematurely.... Using Msters 100 with Game Master 35 My wheel Runs at 105°F Max depending on Room temp but usually stays at 95°F to 98°F even after Long Hours of use, When i Tweek FFB i always use My infrared thermometer to Moniter wheel temp...i useally Race 3 to 4 hours a day since PCars released and have had No Problems with My V2 or Tx 458 wheel.

Edit: I spent all weekend Divging out of the Snow!!! I've had the Z sitting since November i only Drive it spring and Summer...Its only 3in off the Ground so it dont do snow to well... LOL... Driving My Envoy for Now... I Love that Truck!!! its actually My Fav Vehicle:cool:

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 11:20
You didn't take that this weekend! lol

i wish!!! Thats the sweet memory of summer time!!! LOL

Haiden
26-01-2016, 12:21
Thats the Difference... I think they Screwed up the Formula A Cars!!! Those Cars Wobble with any Settings but Stock... They Need their Own FFB settings... I did come up with a Good Formula A FFB but i have to look if i wrote it down... Im sure i can Duplicate it No Problem... Im Not too big on Formula A cars so because everything else drives fine i havent been back to Tweeking them, i just pop in F1 2015 when i want to Race F1 cars.... Formula B, the Lotus Pack Cars and the other open wheel Cars work just fine...its Onlythe Fornula A cars that have that Horrible Oscillation problem... Im pretty sure i Noted that in the PDF.

Formula A is the Only Car that i have to change the FFB!!! Now i undestand why your feel is Different its the Car!!! I drive everything But Formula A.... the other open wheels and Proto Type drive Fine!!! The Rocket Bunny is a Blast with My FFB ...Its only F A.... SMS screwed that Car Class

For the longest, I used to race FC, but mainly because the game AI was jacked up, and it was too hard to Race FA in single player and career, and FC was more popular online than FA. Because of that, I have way more hours in the FC, than any other car. I play F1 2015 for my F1 fix. I'm huge fan of F1 racing. I'll be in Austin this year for the Circuit of America's race in October, and planning to go to Allen Burg racing school for their week-long Formula program. :) So for me, other than LMP1, open wheel is pretty much all I care about. I go through phases with GT3s, but after a few weeks, the slower, top heavy feel of the cars, just makes me want to get back to open wheel racing. I like cars with low centers of gravity and lots of downforce.

I agree that F1 2015 is great for capturing the feeling of being on the professional circuit and makes for some great races, but it still lacks something compared to PCars, so when the AI was fixed I went back to the FA and it's been awesome. Yes, they're different from the other cars. In fact, I mentioned that that was probably the reason I wasn't comfortable with your settings a while back. I wouldn't say SMS screwed the FA class, though. It can easily use the same global settings as the others cars. It's just in-car FFB that gets tricky when you're trying to use a single setting. But it's not like you can't tune the in-car FFB to feel right. They're just different, because those cars are different in real life. Nothing else carries as much downforce, which means they don't, and shouldn't, feel remotely like anything else. I've heard professional drivers sometimes say that when they got to F1, they felt like they were coming back to their karting roots. I think SMS did the class justice by making it different. It's just difficult to find an FFB tune that works across the board. I agree that having a single tune for all cars is the most desirable, but I think we have to acknowledge that that may not have been what SMS had in mind when they developed the system.

For that reason, I'm seriously considering the idea (pretty much am) of just having different FFB settings per class and, in some cases, like the FA and certain classics, even per car. It's definitely not my ideal preference. I get that it's like changing the physics, but I think I might be headed this route for a couple reasons. One, although it is a bit like changing the physics, doing it by class will basically mean the physics stay the same within certain groupings/classes, so all GTs can use the same in-car FFB, which will bring out the difference between them. The fact that the FFB might be different for LMP classes, doesn't really matter physics feel wise, because those cars are so different, the general feel was going to drastically change anyway. But, within the LMP class, they'll all be using the same FFB, so they're unique characteristics will still show. The second, and probably most important reason, I'm leaning toward doing this is because, like inthebagbud said, I'm tired of tuning and want to race. I've been in this rabbit hole for too long, and what I've come to realize is, I'm only stuck in the hole, because I'm chasing this idea of a one-size-fits-all FFB. If I were doing it by class, I would have been done a long time ago, because the problem isn't creating an FFB tune at the class level. It's creating a tune that carries across the board. Granted, if I just tossed the FA and few other cars out of the garage, it might be easier. But I still don't think that's the case. At best, I'd just find a mediocre solution--a setting that worked well in most cars. But, I'm starting to see that, if you use one tune for all, there will always be some cars where the feel is lacking in some areas. I know you say your tune does work across the board, but honestly, I have yet to find any tune--yours, mine, or any others, that truly works across the board, without missing the mark in some areas on certain cars. So I've started asking myself the question, why am I wasting my gaming time chasing this idea? Sure, it'd be great if they all used the same FFB, but then again, maybe that would make it too much like other racing games. Perhaps that's why most of the other titles lock the FFB down more and make use of more canned effects. I don't know, but like I said, the idea that there should be one FFB tune for all is just an assumption. We don't know if that's what SMS intended, but we do know that not all cars have the same default settings. The Fxyzm settings are all set the same, but the SoP values sometimes varies. That alone, tells you that SMS acknowledges that certain cars need special adjustments.

Anyway... I don't know. That's obviously just my opinion. But I will say this. This is the last week I'm going to spend testing and play around with the FFB. I'm starting a new weekly FA series on the 7th, and come Sunday, I'll be spending each week practicing for the next week's race. I don't have time to fart around with the FFB system anymore. I have the globals I want. And I've learned enough about the in-car settings to quickly get any class/car feeling great within a few laps. The all-in-one is the thing that allusive. It's the white whale, the holy grail... a unicorn that I'm no longer willing to chase. Because the truth is, we've all been at this for more than seven months. It's now 2016, and there a few new titles coming out this year, and PCars 2 is slated for 2017. So basically, how long should I spend tweaking a game that I know will eventually be back burnered or shelved--whether it be for some other title or for PCars 2? Unless you're planning to never buy another racing title, the undeniably fact is, all the work we're doing here has no long term value outside gaining a better understanding of how FFB systems work. And that, I now already have. :) Time to enjoy the game, for however long it lasts. :)

spacepadrille
26-01-2016, 13:14
For that reason, I'm seriously considering the idea (pretty much am) of just having different FFB settings per class and, in some cases, like the FA and certain classics, even per car. It's definitely not my ideal preference. I get that it's like changing the physics, but I think I might be headed this route for a couple reasons.

I'm so happy to read this ! That's exactly the way I was going last days, choosing a class of car, setting quickly the global FFB with one of them, and running the same class all night long ;-)

I'm sure with 3 or 4 different sets of "global" settings the game can be greatly enhanced. it's not so long to do some changes in the global settings before running a cession.

But I must admit that with patch 8 a single good global FFB can be enough...

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 13:43
Im pretty sure i have over 500hrs of tweeker time!!! I've Not done any of the Career Races because of this... Ive Reset My profile 8x two of those had 150+hrs of engineering time on them!!! For Me the only cars that Need their Own FFB are thr FA cars... Ive Driven every car with My tweek and they Feel Great ... LMP1 Toyota i Got 15th on the LB Stock tune im sure i could have gotten better in the Audi its #1 on the LB... Even Last Night i drive the Group 5 BMW with My Master 100 with 6.00 Fx added in to My Tweek Now...and that thing is a Beast!!! I got it to 1:09.xxx on Watkins and 1:27.xxx on Laguna Seca No Assist!!! Just have to be easy until the Tires Heat up... Im sure i could have gotten the Times Down 1:08.xxx maybe 1:07.xxx on Watkins and 1:26.xxx on Laguna.... My point in saying all that is that the Best FFB is the 1 you are most Familiar and Comfortable with... I've been Driving with the same FFB since update 3 or 4.0 probabley even Longer... Since they put the spring Sliders in thats when i came up with it!!! the only Changes made was the Game Master FFB level to adjust the at the Wheel FFB strength per update.... I've been done Chasing the Unicorn for a while!!! If you Drive Mostly FA then just set a FFB that works and Thats That... adjust other Cars as Needed... Yup even i Acknowledge that the FA cars Need their own FFB!!! They are a Different Beast all unto them Selves Like Nubergring!!!

I use Watkins Short as a Test Track because it has Good Bump and Road Feel if you can Make your FA feel Good and Coner Fast on it it will work and Have Good Road, Bump feel on any Track IMO.... When im done at watkins i go Straight to Laguna Seca for the Final Testing but if i can get it through the Glen Fast it will work at Laguna its just a Diff Track to Run Lines with less Bumpy Feel to see how it handles....Watkins and Laguna Seca IMO those are the Best Test Tracks.

The FA cars do Not Have that Dynamic FFB feel like the other Car Classes... There is Pretty Much No weight Transfer Feel in them... Just tune your wheel so you can feel when your Losing Grip... thats what i did with my FA set up it worked Great. i dont think i used SoP either... But i could still tell when the Rear was stepping outta line.

The Best FFB is the 1 that works for You!!! and the Cars you Like.

I could Make a FFB for the Ring that would be sooo Good it would be Like Cheating!!! I was playing with it last Night.

Moody plum
26-01-2016, 14:25
Hi have you any ideas on why in game my steering wheel keeps disconnecting I have Fanatec Porsche gt2 wheel latest firmware upgraded and csp v1 pedals any help would be greatly appreciated thanks

Haiden
26-01-2016, 15:01
The FA cars do Not Have that Dynamic FFB feel like the other Car Classes... There is Pretty Much No weight Transfer Feel in them... Just tune your wheel so you can feel when your Losing Grip... thats what i did with my FA set up it worked Great. i dont think i used SoP either... But i could still tell when the Rear was stepping outta line.

Have to disagree on that. I can get full range in the FA, and the feel of weight transfer is actually amazing, because they have so much downforce and speed. You can feel weight shift and grip and every little skip as the tires try to come off the road, but are forced back down by the aero. I think Spa is a great example of this, when you take Eau Rouge, running flat out, it's amazing. And a perfect of example of being forced to trust your aero, because you feel like you should slow down, but if you slow down, you'll lose the grip you're getting from the aero. If you run it flat out, you will feel the weight transfer and the tires dig in as you run up the hill. Becketts at Silvestone is another good one. The track undulations near the apexes make blasting through that snake feel incredible. IMO, the FA doesn't lack anything as far as feel goes. You just have to set the FFB correctly. But given your lower global FF and low Fx and Fy settings, it's not surprising that you don't get the full dynamic range in that car. Running a 100 Master Scale probably isn't really suited for that car either. It's already super sensitive, and it's very easy to throw the FFB out of balance.

If you mostly drive GT classes, then what you think is a lack of weight transfer, might just be due to the lower center of gravity the FA has. GTs are swinging their big rear ends around, and that's what you feel in the wheel, especially if you're running SoP Lat. The FA, and most open wheelers are way lighter, sit way lower, aren't nearly as top heavy, and have better weight distribution. Their weight transfer will never feel like a GT. Personally, I think that's a good thing. It's one of things I don't like about the GT classes.


Hi have you any ideas on why in game my steering wheel keeps disconnecting I have Fanatec Porsche gt2 wheel latest firmware upgraded and csp v1 pedals any help would be greatly appreciated thanks

How often are you experiencing the problem? Don't know about the Porsche wheel, but the CSW-v2 does drop sometimes, but only when starting a new session. Exiting and restarting brings it back. I've never had the FFB drop during a session, though.


But I must admit that with patch 8 a single good global FFB can be enough...

Totally agree! I think that's one of the reasons I'm leaning toward the per class settings. I would never do it, if I had to change the globals, as well. Changing globals would mean, I'd always have to make those changes whenever I switched classes. That would basically make online racing a complete pain in the butt. Doing it at the car level means, once I get the cars set up, I won't have to worry about it anymore, unless I reinstall the game.

dawgpaws11
26-01-2016, 19:49
Haiden
I'm a big F1 fan and agree completely with your comments about driving an open wheeler vs gt cars...jealous you are heading to Austin. On my bucket list for sure as well as the traditional historic races in Europe i.e. Monza, Monacco, etc.

I personally don't like F1 2015 at all. Cars to me have horrible ffb. Project cars is for sure better imo. Although I like Formula A, definitely does feel to me a off. Having driven a formula 3000 a couple of times, none of them quite feel right but my favorite for sure is the Formula Renault.

Def feel this patch has helped ffb a ton and the tire physics upgrade makes the formula Renault so much better as it doesn't take 3 laps to get the tires to warm up.

Hit me up if you are ever looking for a mp run. In the process of working on all my set up again but always looking for some clean racing.

Ps so pumped for testing.. cant wait to see what Ferrari has come up with

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 20:22
Very interesting... fanatec Wheel users try this... im using the v2 wheel i just set my game master FFB to 0 and the FFB is Still there and very Strong Too!!!

Haiden
26-01-2016, 20:27
Haiden
I'm a big F1 fan and agree completely with your comments about driving an open wheeler vs gt cars...jealous you are heading to Austin. On my bucket list for sure as well as the traditional historic races in Europe i.e. Monza, Monacco, etc.

I personally don't like F1 2015 at all. Cars to me have horrible ffb. Project cars is for sure better imo. Although I like Formula A, definitely does feel to me a off. Having driven a formula 3000 a couple of times, none of them quite feel right but my favorite for sure is the Formula Renault.

Def feel this patch has helped ffb a ton and the tire physics upgrade makes the formula Renault so much better as it doesn't take 3 laps to get the tires to warm up.

Hit me up if you are ever looking for a mp run. In the process of working on all my set up again but always looking for some clean racing.

Ps so pumped for testing.. cant wait to see what Ferrari has come up with

I'd love to watch at a European circuit, Monza or Spa, for me. Funny you mentioned the Formula Renault. I tried it when it came out and love it, but then decided to wait until the 8.0, because it took so long for the tires to warm. I had totally forgotten about, until last night. Ran a few laps, and now I can't wait to get it tuned up for a few tracks.

I hear you about F1. I don't mind it though, because it's fun to race with the real teams and drivers. But my biggest problem with the FFB is that it's primarily grip focused. I like how it tightens up with speed, but I hate that there little to road feel, basically just limited to curbs. After a few hours playing F1 2015, coming back to PCars is a night and day difference. Don't know if they're catering to their audience, but I wish they would bring a little more texture to the feel.

I am too, but I think Mercedes has probably done some work, too. I don't think they were ready for Ferrari to be as strong as they were last year. I think they learned not to underestimate them. I'm curious to see what Haas does. I don't expect any podiums, but I like Grosjean. I hope he does well with the team.

Also, did you hear about the exhaust changes? Cars are expected to be 14-25% louder this year. :D

Haiden
26-01-2016, 20:31
Very interesting... fanatec Wheel users try this... im using the v2 wheel i just set my game master FFB to 0 and the FFB is Still there and very Strong Too!!!

Exactly! That's why I said the Master is just an underlying saturation. But if you set TF to 0 and FF to 100, you get nothing, and the telemetry is flatlined. That's why you can set FF low, TF high, and still have strong forces in wheel. IMO, FF is actually the wheel weight. TF is the actual force level, not the wheel weight.

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 21:16
Exactly! That's why I said the Master is just an underlying saturation. But if you set TF to 0 and FF to 100, you get nothing, and the telemetry is flatlined. That's why you can set FF low, TF high, and still have strong forces in wheel. IMO, FF is actually the wheel weight. TF is the actual force level, not the wheel weight.

It only works like this with Fanatec wheels... but seems that something may have changed...after the updates if the game FFB Forces feel stronger/Weaker i would adjust the game master FFB to compensate... seems that the game FFB has been raised with update 8.0 so no matter how low i set it the Game Master FFB the wheel being set to FFB 75 is the level of the FFB because the V2 is Boosting the FFB signal with its own power...interesting i used to be able to raise or lower FFB at the Game master FFB.

Nope TF is the wheel weight...IMO

Edit: Hmmm this means i get to use even Lower on Wheel FFB... I was using 75 Now 65 feels Good...im going to check my setting i only upped Fx from 2.00 to 6.00 Hmmm i will test but i doubt that such a small increase in Fx caused such a large FFB power increase. Hmmm...:confused:

Haiden
26-01-2016, 21:47
It only works like this with Fanatec wheels... but seems that something may have changed...after the updates if the game FFB Forces feel stronger/Weaker i would adjust the game master FFB to compensate... seems that the game FFB has been raised with update 8.0 so no matter how low i set it the Game Master FFB the wheel being set to FFB 75 is the level of the FFB because the V2 is Boosting the FFB signal with its own power...interesting i used to be able to raise or lower FFB at the Game master FFB.

Nope TF is the wheel weight...IMO

Just Fanatec? People were talking about this months ago, back around release. I don't remember them saying it was just Fanatec wheels. In fact, can't say for sure, but I'm almost positive I tested it on my TX. If that's the case, then it would mean FF is weight. That's why you can zero it out and still feel feedback. But vice-versa (TF at 0), you get nothing. Because TF is the actual force.

I'll hook up my T300 tonight and test it out. Also, TF being weight doesn't make sense. It's called Tire Forces for a reason. It's the Tire Forces. :)

Haiden
26-01-2016, 22:05
Also, I'm pretty sure that FF being weight is the basis of the whole "You should lower FF instead of TF" argument. Admittedly, I was on the "Run FF higher" side for a while, so I know that's the basis of the argument. As the chart shows, TF is a multiplier being used by the scales and SoP, and then passing through to the Spindle. How can that be just wheel weight? It's powering the force calculations. In contrast, FF doesn't come into play later, applied to the end calculation. It's benign and doesn't affect the scales. It's just weight applied before final output. It's not even represented in the telemetry, because it's just weight.

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 22:15
Just Fanatec? People were talking about this months ago, back around release. I don't remember them saying it was just Fanatec wheels. In fact, can't say for sure, but I'm almost positive I tested it on my TX. If that's the case, then it would mean FF is weight. That's why you can zero it out and still feel feedback. But vice-versa (TF at 0), you get nothing. Because TF is the actual force.

I'll hook up my T300 tonight and test it out. Also, TF being weight doesn't make sense. It's called Tire Forces for a reason. It's the Tire Forces. :)

Fanatec is the only wheel with a FFB setting on it...so the Fanatec Wheel's have their own Gain/Volume control built into them to adjust FFB on the Fly at the wheel. ThrustMaster and Logitec wheels do not have this feature... There must be a way to control the Game FFB to set a final at the wheel power output Level. Ex: In Game Master FFB The Fanatec wheels do not Follow this rule only because they have on the wheel FFB gain/Volume control...I don't Know if its in the FW or if its the input gains are super sensitive:confused: My main concern is not to feed the wheel Too Much power and cause it to make excessive heat but its not good to under power the wheel (or any electrical Device for that matter) because that Creates excessive Heat also.

any way bottom line is I Go back to in Game Master 35 which i know for my tweek works well been using it for months and i lower FFB on Wheel from 75 to 65

GrimeyDog
26-01-2016, 22:29
Also, I'm pretty sure that FF being weight is the basis of the whole "You should lower FF instead of TF" argument. Admittedly, I was on the "Run FF higher" side for a while, so I know that's the basis of the argument. As the chart shows, TF is a multiplier being used by the scales and SoP, and then passing through to the Spindle. How can that be just wheel weight? It's powering the force calculations. In contrast, FF doesn't come into play later, applied to the end calculation. It's benign and doesn't affect the scales. It's just weight applied before final output. It's not even represented in the telemetry, because it's just weight.

I have never been a supporter of 100 in Game master FFB:no:!!! that's used to have my wheel running at 130*F and That's without 100 in car masters!!! when i lowered the FFB thats when i came up with the !00 in car masters :yes:
Game master FFB Sets the at the wheel FFB Level... Fanatec is just different set it too low and you wont feel the change set it too high you will Notice a power increase its all about finding that happy medium... for me that's 35:yes:

Haiden
26-01-2016, 23:42
It only works like this with Fanatec wheels... but seems that something may have changed...after the updates if the game FFB Forces feel stronger/Weaker i would adjust the game master FFB to compensate... seems that the game FFB has been raised with update 8.0 so no matter how low i set it the Game Master FFB the wheel being set to FFB 75 is the level of the FFB because the V2 is Boosting the FFB signal with its own power...interesting i used to be able to raise or lower FFB at the Game master FFB.

Nope TF is the wheel weight...IMO

I tested this on the TX. You're right. With FF set to 0, and TF at 100, I got nothing in the wheel. Whoever said that early on must have been using a Fanatec and just assumed it was the same for all wheels.

But here's the thing, and the reason why I say FF is weight. On the TX, when you run FF=100 / TF=0, the wheel only delivers force in the menus and when the car comes to a complete stop. You feel noting when the car is in motion, and the absolutely zero feedback showing in the telemetry window. But if you run FF=0 / TF=100, you don't feel anything in the menus or when the car is moving or standing still, but the feedback is alive in telemetry window. Why? Because TF is tire force, and it's set to 100, so the forces are still being picked up and sent, but FF is set to 0, so there's no weight at the wheel, so you can't feel them. When TF is set to 0, you get no telemetry, because TF is tire force. The only reason you get force in the menus and when the car is standing still is because FF=100 and when you're standing still Menu Spring and Low Speed Spring Saturation kick in, and both of those are just weight.

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 01:11
I tested this on the TX. You're right. With FF set to 0, and TF at 100, I got nothing in the wheel. Whoever said that early on must have been using a Fanatec and just assumed it was the same for all wheels.

But here's the thing, and the reason why I say FF is weight. On the TX, when you run FF=100 / TF=0, the wheel only delivers force in the menus and when the car comes to a complete stop. You feel noting when the car is in motion, and the absolutely zero feedback showing in the telemetry window. But if you run FF=0 / TF=100, you don't feel anything in the menus or when the car is moving or standing still, but the feedback is alive in telemetry window. Why? Because TF is tire force, and it's set to 100, so the forces are still being picked up and sent, but FF is set to 0, so there's no weight at the wheel, so you can't feel them. When TF is set to 0, you get no telemetry, because TF is tire force. The only reason you get force in the menus and when the car is standing still is because FF=100 and when you're standing still Menu Spring and Low Speed Spring Saturation kick in, and both of those are just weight.


Exactly TF is TF so when the car is not Moving there are no G forces at the wheel or wheel weight being generated because the car is stationary.
and FFB 100 can only Create more than just spring tension when the car is moving because now the in car settings are pumping out data for the relative settings to create FFB Effects.

Haiden
27-01-2016, 02:42
Exactly TF is TF so when the car is not Moving there are no G forces at the wheel or wheel weight being generated because the car is stationary.
and FFB 100 can only Create more than just spring tension when the car is moving because now the in car settings are pumping out data for the relative settings to create FFB Effects.



No. You misunderstand. It's the complete opposite of what you just said. When FF=100 and TF=0, there is no feedback in the telemetry when the car is moving, and you only feel weight in the menus and when the car is standing still, all spring force--i.e. weight. FF does not generate any dynamic force feedback. It's just weight. When FF=0 and TF=100, the telemetry shows full feedback, but there is no weight/force in the wheel when the car is moving or standing still, nor is there any weight when you're in the menus. If zero FF makes the wheel weightless in menus, then what else could it be? When you run zero TF, there's still weight in the menus. TF alone produces feedback, but without FF to give it weight, you feel nothing. You can try it yourself. It's pretty obvious when you look at the telemetry.

gotdirt410sprintcar
27-01-2016, 02:50
I tried it last night half a lap spun out but might try something like your saying but 90 on this T500 felt like everything was off . I 'm going to lower all in car settings first see what happens keep them 5 too 10 difference between them more on MZ i'm guessing 20 to 50 more than the rest

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 11:03
My findings are that some thing Has Changed with the Game Master FFB...Per update i would have to + or - Game Mater FFB to adjust at the Wheel FFB Strength.... With the V2 there was a definitive Reduction in FFB strength from 50(which is the GMFFB preset for the V2 ) to 35 and FFB Reduced even More below 35...as it is Now when i set Game Master FFB to 30 or Below i feel No Noticable Difference in FFB strength.... They Must Have upped the Power of the GMFFB in some way... as it was Noted before about Fanatec wheels even when GMFFB is set to 0... The wheels Still Have all FFB Forces because of the on the Wheel FFB Gain/Volume control.

Im Looking for the Right way to balace the at the Wheel Power Level... as it is Now the wheel Feels too Strong....

Since Reducing GMFFB below 30 Has No effect Now... I have to use other Means to Cut the FFB.

Using 100 in Car Masters the FFB is Sharp and Crisp... i Like that!!! Alot!!!

When i Reduce the in car Masters the FFB feel is Dull... Its Good but Not Sharp and Crisp... I don't like this!!!

I can Reduce it with the Wheel FFB settings... But once again Now i Need to Test Tweek and Find the Right way to Balance out everything for Good Feel... There is a Thin Line between Over Powered and Under Powered FFB.
Over Powered FFB i Struggle to Make Hair pin turns.... Under Powered FFB im always Over Turning the wheel in turns...

Good FFB is Easy to Create... Balancing the Wheel Weight and FFB effects so they are Good for more than just 1 type of turn is the Hard Part!!!

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 11:20
No. You misunderstand. It's the complete opposite of what you just said. When FF=100 and TF=0, there is no feedback in the telemetry when the car is moving, and you only feel weight in the menus and when the car is standing still, all spring force--i.e. weight. FF does not generate any dynamic force feedback. It's just weight. When FF=0 and TF=100, the telemetry shows full feedback, but there is no weight/force in the wheel when the car is moving or standing still, nor is there any weight when you're in the menus. If zero FF makes the wheel weightless in menus, then what else could it be? When you run zero TF, there's still weight in the menus. TF alone produces feedback, but without FF to give it weight, you feel nothing. You can try it yourself. It's pretty obvious when you look at the telemetry.

This is Because TF goes through the Relative adjust and Steering Gain.

GMFFB is added in at the End before the FFB goes to the wheel and should be used for Final at the wheel FFB Strength adjustment Only.
It will Never Show in the FFB Graph.

The Wheel Strength you feel in the Menu is Different that is controled by the Menu Spring Strenght Slider.

Haiden
27-01-2016, 11:42
This is Because TF goes through the Relative adjust and Steering Gain.

GMFFB is added in at the End before the FFB goes to the wheel and should be used for Final at the wheel FFB Strength adjustment Only.
It will Never Show in the FFB Graph.

The Wheel Strength you feel in the Menu is Different that is controled by the Menu Spring Strenght Slider.

Yes, that's exactly right. So, based on that, if FF is being added at the end, after all the force calculations have been made, then how can it be anything but weight? It even comes after the telemetry feed, which is why it's not represented in the graph. If it had any bearing on the actual feedback dynamic, it would be showing in the telemetry screen. I know the Menu Spring is different. I mentioned it as an example, because it's only affected by the FF setting, which further supports FF being just weight.

In F1 2015 they call feedback, Force Feedback and weight, Wheel Weight, making it easy to tell the difference. In PCars Feedback is TF, that's why it affects the force dynamic and shows in telemetry; and weight is FF, which is why it doesn't show. I'm a little confused as to why this is so debatable. One creates feedback in the telemetry window (TF), and the other doesn't (FF). If FF doesn't produce a dynamic feedback range when used alone, but yet makes the wheel feel stronger when used in conjunction with TF, then what else could it be but weight?

Haiden
27-01-2016, 11:45
I was reading the preview posting about the upcoming StanceWorks DLC, and thought this detail was interesting.

The StanceWorks BMWs make up only part of the exciting new update, with Mad Mike's RADBUL Formula Drift Miata making an entrance, along with a change to the tires' physics engine to allow for drifting around your favorite circuits. KTM's X-Bow R makes an appearance as well, and Ford's 2013 Falcon FG is the month's free car.

Here's a link to the full article.

http://www.stanceworks.com/2016/01/preview-the-official-stanceworks-x-project-cars-dlc-car-pack-coming-jan-26/

Haiden
27-01-2016, 13:21
Very interesting... fanatec Wheel users try this... im using the v2 wheel i just set my game master FFB to 0 and the FFB is Still there and very Strong Too!!!

This is actually more interesting that we thought. Turns out, it's not just a Fanatec thing. It's also platform specific. I can't test PC, but on PS4, if you set FF=0 and TF=100, you will still have force in the wheel. But if you try that on the Xb1, there's not force in the wheel. It behaves just like the TX and T300s. The only thing I can think of, is that the T300 and TX don't have on wheel settings, and therefore use a built in Auto Sync. On the CSW-v2, there no Auto Sync feature for in-wheel FF when you're in PS4 mode. It's only available when you're in Xb1 mode. Coincidence?

gotdirt410sprintcar
27-01-2016, 13:38
Its the linkage damping Haiden I looked at my setting this morning I have it at 0.02 stiffness is 1.00

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 13:41
Yes so were saying the same thing... The GMFFB is only to set the at the Wheel Strength.... When it Sets the at the wheel Strength i dont think it Discriminates it will + or - the Level of All Forces at the Wheel because it is Added after the Steering Gain.... Just like on a stereo Equalizer you set your Mids, Highs, Lows at the EQ Level then the Volume Will + or - all Sounds (in Pcars CaseForces) for Final output Volume/FFB Level.

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 13:42
This is actually more interesting that we thought. Turns out, it's not just a Fanatec thing. It's also platform specific. I can't test PC, but on PS4, if you set FF=0 and TF=100, you will still have force in the wheel. But if you try that on the Xb1, there's not force in the wheel. It behaves just like the TX and T300s. The only thing I can think of, is that the T300 and TX don't have on wheel settings, and therefore use a built in Auto Sync. On the CSW-v2, there no Auto Sync feature for in-wheel FF when you're in PS4 mode. It's only available when you're in Xb1 mode. Coincidence?

Thats where they Screwed up the FFB Levels adding in FFB Levels for Drift Cars!!!

GrimeyDog
27-01-2016, 13:45
Its the linkage damping Haiden I looked at my setting this morning I have it at 0.02 stiffness is 1.00

I have to Re Check My Settings again Also!!! Right Now the FfB is Not Feeling Good... Just Too Strong and i cant seem to Tame it to My Liking like before... I like a Strong Wheel but the Wheel weight is too Much Now!!!

Haiden
27-01-2016, 14:35
Its the linkage damping Haiden I looked at my setting this morning I have it at 0.02 stiffness is 1.00

Yeah... I got your message. Looking forward to trying it tonight. You said 0.06 earlier. Are you down to 0.02 now?

gotdirt410sprintcar
27-01-2016, 17:22
Yeah... I got your message. Looking forward to trying it tonight. You said 0.06 earlier. Are you down to 0.02 now?
It was at 0.02 I thought it was 0.06 but like I said it feels like the corners feel better far as grip level or loss of grip

skoader
27-01-2016, 19:13
And i still have absolutely no idea what they are trying to tell us with this fix:
"Fixed long standing missing functionality in Thrustmaster PS4 implementation -- the ignore device gain setting was not being honoured meaning the soft lock was being applied at the master gain level instead of full gain."

Does anybody know?

The FFB slider sets the devices gain property. There was an issue where the soft lock effect was incorrectly respecting that setting - it should run at full magnitude regardless.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 21:24
Exactly! That's why I said the Master is just an underlying saturation. But if you set TF to 0 and FF to 100, you get nothing, and the telemetry is flatlined. That's why you can set FF low, TF high, and still have strong forces in wheel. IMO, FF is actually the wheel weight. TF is the actual force level, not the wheel weight.

Hhm, in-game FF = 0 but still full FFB at the wheel? Since you said so, there is no reason to doubt that. But that's with CSWv2. If i set in-game FF to 0 with my T300, my wheel gets no signal. So it seems that the game's recognition of the wheel results in more complex changes to the chain of signals that i was aware of.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 21:34
Also, I'm pretty sure that FF being weight is the basis of the whole "You should lower FF instead of TF" argument. Admittedly, I was on the "Run FF higher" side for a while, so I know that's the basis of the argument. As the chart shows, TF is a multiplier being used by the scales and SoP, and then passing through to the Spindle. How can that be just wheel weight? It's powering the force calculations. In contrast, FF doesn't come into play later, applied to the end calculation. It's benign and doesn't affect the scales. It's just weight applied before final output. It's not even represented in the telemetry, because it's just weight.

I see it the same. FF (=in game FFB) is just the "volume knob" that sets the signal strength that goes out of the PS4 box to the wheel. However, if it's true that with CWSv2 wheels the in-game FFB value doesn't effect the strength (level) of the signal that goes to the wheel at all - well, then, I get a drink now and try not to think about it any longer:rolleyes:

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 21:44
I tested this on the TX. You're right. With FF set to 0, and TF at 100, I got nothing in the wheel. Whoever said that early on must have been using a Fanatec and just assumed it was the same for all wheels.

But here's the thing, and the reason why I say FF is weight. On the TX, when you run FF=100 / TF=0, the wheel only delivers force in the menus and when the car comes to a complete stop. You feel noting when the car is in motion, and the absolutely zero feedback showing in the telemetry window. But if you run FF=0 / TF=100, you don't feel anything in the menus or when the car is moving or standing still, but the feedback is alive in telemetry window. Why? Because TF is tire force, and it's set to 100, so the forces are still being picked up and sent, but FF is set to 0, so there's no weight at the wheel, so you can't feel them. When TF is set to 0, you get no telemetry, because TF is tire force. The only reason you get force in the menus and when the car is standing still is because FF=100 and when you're standing still Menu Spring and Low Speed Spring Saturation kick in, and both of those are just weight.

Ok, that makes sense now to me. Obviously we have to be aware that with Fanatec wheels the in-game FFB "volume knob" simply gets "bridged", meaning put out of order. While with Trustmaster (Logitec) wheels it's in effect. The test you did, changing from TF=0 / FF =100 to TF = 100 / FF = 0, confirms IMO the chain of signals as it was considered to be valid since quite a while.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 22:00
No. You misunderstand. It's the complete opposite of what you just said. When FF=100 and TF=0, there is no feedback in the telemetry when the car is moving, and you only feel weight in the menus and when the car is standing still, all spring force--i.e. weight. FF does not generate any dynamic force feedback. It's just weight. When FF=0 and TF=100, the telemetry shows full feedback, but there is no weight/force in the wheel when the car is moving or standing still, nor is there any weight when you're in the menus. If zero FF makes the wheel weightless in menus, then what else could it be? When you run zero TF, there's still weight in the menus. TF alone produces feedback, but without FF to give it weight, you feel nothing. You can try it yourself. It's pretty obvious when you look at the telemetry.

I don't think Grimey misunderstood. He just says the same what you say :) And everything you say is true: TF shows in the telemetry. If you choose to feel nothing from the TireForces by setting FF to 0, or you want to feel them by setting FF > 0, either way it's the proof: TF feeds the FFB physic engine, while with FF you just choose how strong you wanna feel the forcefeedback trough your wheel. That's actually what you always said, and if i may say so, that's also exactly what Grimey says. Of course if the car doesn't move there aren't any Tireforces at work (except Spring force at lower speed, but that's an "extra" / "canned" signal, that it not part of the "real" tire force sim), so it doesn't matter if FF is set to 0 or any other value: FFB signal is =0, because there musn't be any feedbackforce, when there are no forces effecting the tire when the car stands still.

Haiden
27-01-2016, 22:06
Ok, that makes sense now to me. Obviously we have to be aware that with Fanatec wheels the in-game FFB "volume knob" simply gets "bridged", meaning put out of order. While with Trustmaster (Logitec) wheels it's in effect. The test you did, changing from TF=0 / FF =100 to TF = 100 / FF = 0, confirms IMO the chain of signals as it was considered to be valid since quite a while.

Don't know if you saw my last comment on this. It's not just Fanatec. It's the CSW-V2 on PS4. If you try this with a CSW-v2 on Xb1, it behaves the same way the TX and T300 do. I think it has something to do with the fact that the CSW-v2 only has an FF=Auto Sync option when in Xb1 mode.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 22:09
This is Because TF goes through the Relative adjust and Steering Gain.

GMFFB is added in at the End before the FFB goes to the wheel and should be used for Final at the wheel FFB Strength adjustment Only.
It will Never Show in the FFB Graph.

The Wheel Strength you feel in the Menu is Different that is controled by the Menu Spring Strenght Slider.

Exactly.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 22:16
This is actually more interesting that we thought. Turns out, it's not just a Fanatec thing. It's also platform specific. I can't test PC, but on PS4, if you set FF=0 and TF=100, you will still have force in the wheel. But if you try that on the Xb1, there's not force in the wheel. It behaves just like the TX and T300s. The only thing I can think of, is that the T300 and TX don't have on wheel settings, and therefore use a built in Auto Sync. On the CSW-v2, there no Auto Sync feature for in-wheel FF when you're in PS4 mode. It's only available when you're in Xb1 mode. Coincidence?

With PS4 "FF = 0" but still force in the wheel? Yes with the Fanatec wheel. But not with T300.

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 22:18
Don't know if you saw my last comment on this. It's not just Fanatec. It's the CSW-V2 on PS4. If you try this with a CSW-v2 on Xb1, it behaves the same way the TX and T300 do. I think it has something to do with the fact that the CSW-v2 only has an FF=Auto Sync option when in Xb1 mode.

it goes over my head!:D:D i give up :D:D too complex :D:D

tennenbaum
27-01-2016, 22:22
The FFB slider sets the devices gain property. There was an issue where the soft lock effect was incorrectly respecting that setting - it should run at full magnitude regardless.

thanks!! but what is the "soft lock"?

morpwr
28-01-2016, 01:31
thanks!! but what is the "soft lock"?

If I'm not mistaken and somebody correct me if I am it has to with how the game limits maximum wheel rotation. I still think there was more to this patch because suddenly the defaults work great and all the adjustments work as expected. This has never been this easy at least with the t300. Basically all you have to do now is turn down the game master and that's it other than changing the scoop values. Anybody could jump into this game and get good results very easily as it should be. I'm not buying this is just from the new tire model. But I guess we will never really know. The shame is there are still a lot of users trying to use 100ffb for wheels that shouldn't be.

morpwr
28-01-2016, 01:35
With PS4 "FF = 0" but still force in the wheel? Yes with the Fanatec wheel. But not with T300.

That actually makes sense. Don't they have a profiler screen like a pc on the ps4 or its actually adjusted on the wheel itself? That would make sense where like on a pc the game master becomes redundant. But the t300 doesn't have that option just the game master.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 04:06
With PS4 "FF = 0" but still force in the wheel? Yes with the Fanatec wheel. But not with T300.

I know. I have a TX and T300, as well. I'm only talking about Fanatec wheels. The Fanatec on PS4 behaves differently, creating force even when FF=0. But it's only on PS4. Fanatec on Xb1 behaves just like the TX and T300.

Apoov
28-01-2016, 09:10
If I'm not mistaken and somebody correct me if I am it has to with how the game limits maximum wheel rotation. I still think there was more to this patch because suddenly the defaults work great and all the adjustments work as expected. This has never been this easy at least with the t300. Basically all you have to do now is turn down the game master and that's it other than changing the scoop values. Anybody could jump into this game and get good results very easily as it should be. I'm not buying this is just from the new tire model. But I guess we will never really know. The shame is there are still a lot of users trying to use 100ffb for wheels that shouldn't be.

What I've learned is that the soft lock is affected by the master gain. So if you go low with that value the soft lock goes weak.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 10:25
If I'm not mistaken and somebody correct me if I am it has to with how the game limits maximum wheel rotation. I still think there was more to this patch because suddenly the defaults work great and all the adjustments work as expected. This has never been this easy at least with the t300. Basically all you have to do now is turn down the game master and that's it other than changing the scoop values. Anybody could jump into this game and get good results very easily as it should be. I'm not buying this is just from the new tire model. But I guess we will never really know. The shame is there are still a lot of users trying to use 100ffb for wheels that shouldn't be.

Exactly!!! Agree 100%
I was always opposed to using GMFFB @100 when i realized how Over Powered and how Hot My wheel used to get because of that!!! and I Like My FFB Strong but that GMFFB is over Kill!!! Boy oooh Boy Did i get Flamed when i started posting GMFFB is Not Needed:livid: i still Have the Burn Marks on My Ars form the all Flaming:D LOL
and dude is still Teaching and Spreading that propaganda!!!:rolleyes:

BTW i think the saying Flamed... Referring to some one getting pounced on by other opinions is Histericly Funny... Im Laughing as i type... Loud too!!! LOL... Never heard that saying in that context before this forum... LMAO

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 10:33
What I've learned is that the soft lock is affected by the master gain. So if you go low with that value the soft lock goes weak.

Hmmm... Interesting, Makes Sense too!!! I will investigate.

That will also explain why some would try to calculate the DOR instead of letting the Game Set DOR per Car Automaticaly.... Hmmmm.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 10:39
I know. I have a TX and T300, as well. I'm only talking about Fanatec wheels. The Fanatec on PS4 behaves differently, creating force even when FF=0. But it's only on PS4. Fanatec on Xb1 behaves just like the TX and T300.

I have a TX also on My Son's XB1 set up and i've always just set it with the same settings i use with the V2 on PS4/XB1 just with its own GMFFB level... Feels the Same as the V2 on My XB1 just Not as Strong... Its Not exactly 1.1 because the XB1 uses a diff FFB protocol but its Very Very Close... XB1 FFB is More Powerful weight wise but details are Not as Crisp. IMO

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 10:44
That actually makes sense. Don't they have a profiler screen like a pc on the ps4 or its actually adjusted on the wheel itself? That would make sense where like on a pc the game master becomes redundant. But the t300 doesn't have that option just the game master.

IMO the GMFFB is the Profiler for Consol with PCars.

Thats the only control for at the wheel Strength Setting on Consol... unless your using a Fanatec Wheel.

morpwr
28-01-2016, 11:12
I have a TX also on My Son's XB1 set up and i've always just set it with the same settings i use with the V2 on PS4/XB1 just with its own GMFFB level... Feels the Same as the V2 on My XB1 just Not as Strong... Its Not exactly 1.1 because the XB1 uses a diff FFB protocol but its Very Very Close... XB1 FFB is More Powerful weight wise but details are Not as Crisp. IMO

That's pretty much how i feel about the xb1 compaired to ps4. Even with the tx and t300 its very close but different. Not as crisp is a good to describe it.

morpwr
28-01-2016, 11:13
What I've learned is that the soft lock is affected by the master gain. So if you go low with that value the soft lock goes weak.

I think that's what they fixed it wasn't supposed to work that way.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 11:38
I still think there was more to this patch because suddenly the defaults work great and all the adjustments work as expected. This has never been this easy at least with the t300. Basically all you have to do now is turn down the game master and that's it other than changing the scoop values. Anybody could jump into this game and get good results very easily as it should be. I'm not buying this is just from the new tire model. But I guess we will never really know. The shame is there are still a lot of users trying to use 100ffb for wheels that shouldn't be.

I the Tire Model changes were more than just a reversion back to the old heat model, they're introducing a drift car in the next expansion, and they made adjustments to make drifting easy. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to make other changes to make it easier to feel/control the drift, and those changes would affect all cars and be felt across the board. Whatever they did, I'm glad they did it.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 11:42
That's pretty much how i feel about the xb1 compaired to ps4. Even with the tx and t300 its very close but different. Not as crisp is a good to describe it.

I used to wonder if it was a hardware difference, that the T300 and TX weren't as alike as we assumed. But after trying them both with the CSW-v2, I realized it all platform. I don't feel any real difference between console when playing F1 2015, but the physics and feel of that game isn't as sophisticated as PCars.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 12:18
if i can find a way to down load 6.0 on a usb flash drive and use it to revert PS4 Pcars back to 6.0 i would and i would just Never Race online again!!! until everthing with the Tire Model gets sorted...IMO 6.0 was the Best!!! Im Mad i had a chance to try it and they Took it away!!! Fu€|< SMS for that:mad: I hate them for that!!! They just Teased us with what it could be to extirt More PCars 2 Sales!!! Random Venting!!! But i Mean it.... 6.0 was just too Good to be True!!!

Haiden
28-01-2016, 13:18
The only thing I liked better about 6.0 was the tire heating. For a game like PCars--focused on full racing, instead 3-4 laps sprints--that really brought a great strategic dimension to the game. But, other than that...I like everything about 8.0, so far. Other than the heating, the new tire model feels much better to me, and the globals and in-car settings seem easier to work with, less farting around. That's a plus, IMO. If they brought back the 6.0 heating model--and only the heating model--it'd be an almost perfect race experience for me. But I can live without the 6.0 heating model. After all, in the grand scheme, I've played longer without than I did with it. :)

RichE
28-01-2016, 15:46
That actually makes sense. Don't they have a profiler screen like a pc on the ps4 or its actually adjusted on the wheel itself? That would make sense where like on a pc the game master becomes redundant. But the t300 doesn't have that option just the game master.

Would you mind suggesting some global settings for the T300rs on the PS4 please, i cant keep up with all the changes?

SGETI
28-01-2016, 16:06
Would you mind suggesting some global settings for the T300rs on the PS4 please, i cant keep up with all the changes?


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Haiden
28-01-2016, 16:58
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691

Dude...thanks for posting that chart. I like comparing data. It's like getting a month's worth of testing in one spreadsheet. :) This is my last week of testing, so this comes at a great time. A few things that stand out to me right away...

1. Running TF at 100 isn't as universal I thought.
2. I believe the old FF default was 75. Looks like a lot of people kept that setting, which probably accounts for observation #1 above. With FF=75, TF=100 would be pretty strong.
3. Realtive Adjust settings above 1.00 seem to correlate with lower Steering Gains, so, unless there's a difference in feel. I don't see the point in raising one, just to lower the other. Seems like a wash.
4. Scoop Knees are running higher than I thought, as are the Reductions.

Based on this, I'm going to try playing with a different FF/TF balance, instead of locking TF=100 and only adjusting FF. I'm also going to try some of the higher Scoop settings. I have a feeling they might be better at simulating a progressive increase in lateral force that better correlates with the increase in speed.

Thanks again!

morpwr
28-01-2016, 17:12
[QUOTE=RichE;1222044]Would you mind suggesting some global settings for the T300rs on the PS4 please, i cant keep up with all the changes?[/QUOTE

Just use the default settings and adjust ffb master down to get the wheel weight you want. So 100 tf 75ffb 1.0gain. You can try .22 and .70 for scoops but you can play with these. No wheel smoothing.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 18:14
[QUOTE=RichE;1222044]Would you mind suggesting some global settings for the T300rs on the PS4 please, i cant keep up with all the changes?[/QUOTE

Just use the default settings and adjust ffb master down to get the wheel weight you want. So 100 tf 75ffb 1.0gain. You can try .22 and .70 for scoops but you can play with these. No wheel smoothing.

Hi RichE, morpwr's hint makes a lot of sense.
The Excel chart is great, but it doesn't state the wheels the guys use. GrimeyDog and Haiden e.g. are using strong CWSv2 wheels thus their FFB setting is lower than most of the guy's settings who use T300 or similair, so don't get confused. For the moment the chart does not show in-car Tire-Forces (TF) Fxyzm and the scaler/multiplier (Spindle-)MasterScale - except the settings from GrimeyDog and Haiden. I say so, because without knowing the in-car Fxyzm and (Spindle-)MasterScale settings it's hard IMO to fully "read" and understand the "global" settings.

After playing around with scoop knee and scoop reduction and setting 100 tf and 75 ffb (as morpwr said) and if you really wanna "go deeper" IMO first try to fumble around with the Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm values, and get a feeling about the changes (due to the different ratios of Fxyzm) before touching RAG/RAB/RAC and the SoftClipper.

And i always found the strength of the T300 actually pretty heavy/strong with the default settings (and ffb 75). So don't be concerned to lower ffb. You might find some "older" opinions in the forum that recommend to set ffb to a 100 or at high values in general, but as far as i know (guys correct me if i'm wrong) lower ffb settings don't compromise the FFB experience.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 18:50
Lower FFB Gives Better FFB IMO... Because you are Not over saturating the wheel with FFB inputs that creates a FFB White Noise.
Excessivly High GMFFB causes the wheel to Run Much Hotter Also.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 19:52
GrimeyDog and Haiden e.g. are using strong CWSv2 wheels thus their FFB setting is lower than most of the guy's settings who use T300 or similair,

And i always found the strength of the T300 actually pretty heavy/strong with the default settings (and ffb 75). So don't be concerned to lower ffb. You might find some "older" opinions in the forum that recommend to set ffb to a 100 or at high values in general, but as far as i know (guys correct me if i'm wrong) lower ffb settings don't compromise the FFB experience.

The CSW-v2 has a stronger motor, but that actually means we can run higher levels of FFB, not the reason we run it lower. If I had an Accuforce wheel, I'd no doubt be able to run close to 100/100, TF/FF (not that I would, but I probably could without damaging the wheel). I used to run FF=100 and a lower TF, but changed direction after I bought my CSW-v2. Higher TF just felt better. But I ran FF/TF at 100/65 with my TX and T300 for the longest, and never had any problems with either wheel. My TX is almost two years old. Before PCars, I ran it with pretty heavy FFB in FM5. Running 100/65 in PCars, the fan never stayed on for more than a few minutes after leaving it idle. IMO, running FF=100 isn't a problem by itself. The problem is running FF=100 without lowering TF and/or other Gain settings to provide the headroom needed to run the higher FF. If you look back through old threads, you'll see that the FF/TF balance debate was primarily centered on the fact that early players on PC had suggested running FF/TF at 100/100. The argument was that this wasn't good advice for console players, because PC players were using the PC driver control panel to attenuate the final output to 75% before it reached the wheel. Well, that would translate to an FF/TF balance of 75/100. And if you look at the chart in the link, you can see that's what quite a few people are doing, running FF=100 and TF=75, or FF=75 and TF=100, or some other balanced variant. It's all about balance.

However, after looking at that chart and comparing tunes, I think one of the biggest oversights I've made is falling into the mindset that you have to choose which scale to run at 100 (FF or TF), which is why I'm going to try different balances this weekend. It's funny, because thinking about it now, I feel like I've been restricting myself by keeping TF locked at 100 and only adjusting the FF. I'm anxious to try some different balances, because the ratio of saturation to tire force is extremely influential in determining the end feel. That said, I'm now pretty firmly entrenched on the higher TF side, and don't plan on testing any balances where FF is higher than TF.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 20:07
IMO Pcars is Going to Fail!!! Every Patch since 6.0 has been a Step Backwards from being a True Sim Racing Game!!! The Proof!!! Now they are adding Drifting into what was supposed to be a Pure Racing Sim...This is why IRacing, Rfactor, Asstetto Corsa Have been Successfull because they stick to pure sim Racing... Pcars could Have been Great but the way its going im afraid its just going to be another Forza type Flop!!! very disapointed in the Direction Pcars is heading... My random rant.

morpwr
28-01-2016, 20:26
[QUOTE=morpwr;1222101]

Hi RichE, morpwr's hint makes a lot of sense.
The Excel chart is great, but it doesn't state the wheels the guys use. GrimeyDog and Haiden e.g. are using strong CWSv2 wheels thus their FFB setting is lower than most of the guy's settings who use T300 or similair, so don't get confused. For the moment the chart does not show in-car Tire-Forces (TF) Fxyzm and the scaler/multiplier (Spindle-)MasterScale - except the settings from GrimeyDog and Haiden. I say so, because without knowing the in-car Fxyzm and (Spindle-)MasterScale settings it's hard IMO to fully "read" and understand the "global" settings.

After playing around with scoop knee and scoop reduction and setting 100 tf and 75 ffb (as morpwr said) and if you really wanna "go deeper" IMO first try to fumble around with the Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm values, and get a feeling about the changes (due to the different ratios of Fxyzm) before touching RAG/RAB/RAC and the SoftClipper.

And i always found the strength of the T300 actually pretty heavy/strong with the default settings (and ffb 75). So don't be concerned to lower ffb. You might find some "older" opinions in the forum that recommend to set ffb to a 100 or at high values in general, but as far as i know (guys correct me if i'm wrong) lower ffb settings don't compromise the FFB experience.

You are correct lowering it is fine.

PureMalt77
28-01-2016, 20:32
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rcwijJf_aLQOU55eGq1SumDwDTydC7alDFJmSTnABO8/edit#gid=1249374691
Wow dude! But I gotta publish my latest data, mine in that sheet is sooooo old!

Haiden
28-01-2016, 20:34
IMO Pcars is Going to Fail!!! Every Patch since 6.0 has been a Step Backwards from being a True Sim Racing Game!!! The Proof!!! Now they are adding Drifting into what was supposed to be a Pure Racing Sim...This is why IRacing, Rfactor, Asstetto Corsa Have been Successfull because they stick to pure sim Racing... Pcars could Have been Great but the way its going im afraid its just going to be another Forza type Flop!!! very disapointed in the Direction Pcars is heading... My random rant.

Drifting is racing. It's just another form of Motorsports, like drag racing. PCars will be fine. But... let's talk about FFB. :)

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 20:59
The CSW-v2 has a stronger motor, but that actually means we can run higher levels of FFB, not the reason we run it lower. If I had an Accuforce wheel, I'd no doubt be able to run close to 100/100, TF/FF (not that I would, but I probably could without damaging the wheel). I used to run FF=100 and a lower TF, but changed direction after I bought my CSW-v2. Higher TF just felt better. But I ran FF/TF at 100/65 with my TX and T300 for the longest, and never had any problems with either wheel. My TX is almost two years old. Before PCars, I ran it with pretty heavy FFB in FM5. Running 100/65 in PCars, the fan never stayed on for more than a few minutes after leaving it idle. IMO, running FF=100 isn't a problem by itself. The problem is running FF=100 without lowering TF and/or other Gain settings to provide the headroom needed to run the higher FF. If you look back through old threads, you'll see that the FF/TF balance debate was primarily centered on the fact that early players on PC had suggested running FF/TF at 100/100. The argument was that this wasn't good advice for console players, because PC players were using the PC driver control panel to attenuate the final output to 75% before it reached the wheel. Well, that would translate to an FF/TF balance of 75/100. And if you look at the chart in the link, you can see that's what quite a few people are doing, running FF=100 and TF=75, or FF=75 and TF=100, or some other balanced variant. It's all about balance.

However, after looking at that chart and comparing tunes, I think one of the biggest oversights I've made is falling into the mindset that you have to choose which scale to run at 100 (FF or TF), which is why I'm going to try different balances this weekend. It's funny, because thinking about it now, I feel like I've been restricting myself by keeping TF locked at 100 and only adjusting the FF. I'm anxious to try some different balances, because the ratio of saturation to tire force is extremely influential in determining the end feel. That said, I'm now pretty firmly entrenched on the higher TF side, and don't plan on testing any balances where FF is higher than TF.

hhm, the question about the right ratio / balance of TF and FF seems missleading to me. the moment you activate the non-linear rag/rab/rac or softclipper module the equivalence tf 75 / ff 100 versus tf 100 / ff 75 seems obsolete, in terms of not given, to me.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 21:09
[QUOTE=morpwr;1222101]GrimeyDog and Haiden e.g. are using strong CWSv2 wheels thus their FFB setting is lower than most of the guy's settings who use T300 or similair, so don't get confused.

I use Low GMFFB Because the V2 has a very sensitive input gain...it only Needs a tad bit of FFB input and the v2 on wheel FFB Really amps it up!!! even if you use GMFFB 100 the wheel will not be stronger than it was designed to be Ex: if the wheel is max 7newton meters of torque at 30 GMFFB it will still only be 7 Newton meters of torque using 100 GMFFB the extra unused FFB current will be grounded out and dissipated as heat... so i balance My GMFFB right to middle where if i + i feel power increase and a decrease with - there is a point with the v2 that + does not Boost power and - will Not reduce FFB the v2/Fanatec wheels will have FFB even if GMFFF is 0... so its best to run FFB in the Middle

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 21:12
Drifting is racing. It's just another form of Motorsports, like drag racing. PCars will be fine. But... let's talk about FFB. :)

i agree. we know, we can go around the track with or without drifting. the perfect drifter will be slower than the pefect slip angle racer, but still much faster than a rookie who can't do neither. pcars claimed to have the best physics engine. if so, my dull statement should prove true. sorry to be so dull ;-)

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 21:22
i agree. we know, we can go around the track with or without drifting. the perfect drifter will be slower than the pefect slip angle racer, but still much faster than a rookie who can't do neither. pcars claimed to have the best physics engine. if so, my dull statement should prove true. sorry to be so dull ;-)

i cant Drift in games...your going to kick my ars at that:D

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 21:24
[QUOTE=tennenbaum;1222141]

I use Low GMFFB Because the V2 has a very sensitive input gain...it only Needs a tad bit of FFB input and the v2 on wheel FFB Really amps it up!!! even if you use GMFFB 100 the wheel will not be stronger than it was designed to be Ex: if the wheel is max 7newton meters of torque at 30 GMFFB it will still only be 7 Newton meters of torque using 100 GMFFB the extra unused FFB current will be grounded out and dissipated as heat... so i balance My GMFFB right to middle where if i + i feel power increase and a decrease with - there is a point with the v2 that + does not Boost power and - will Not reduce FFB the v2/Fanatec wheels will have FFB even if GMFFF is 0... so its best to run FFB in the Middle

i wasn't precise. indeed it's not about the absolute strength of a wheel, it's about how does the wheel "handle" incoming signals. and different wheels interprete the incoming signals differently, to say the least... :D heck, how to give the ones who didn't have the time or passion to follow that thread permanently a simple helping hand to benefit from what was sweatened out by the many who took a deeper dive... :-) while conditions change from patch to patch...

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 21:26
:D
i cant Drift in games...your going to kick my ars at that:D

no way :D

morpwr
28-01-2016, 21:26
hhm, the question about the right ratio / balance of TF and FF seems missleading to me. the moment you activate the non-linear rag/rab/rac or softclipper module the equivalence tf 75 / ff 100 versus tf 100 / ff 75 seems obsolete, in terms of not given, to me.

I don't really think they are reversible myself. Its never felt the same to me. With ffb at 100 you wind up using the ffb adjustments to control wheel weight besides the fact the wheel manufacturer gave us a recommended setting. Notice I said recommended.lol Most of us have tried the 100ffb route and found it just doesn't work right on consoles except for maybe the csw where you can control it at the wheel like a pc. At least for me it seems a lot of the grittiness that is encountered with the t300 comes from running above 75ffb. Once ffb is set to 100 on consoles the only ways to control ffb weight is with gain which kills the range on the hud and tf which limits the forces we want to feel or some combination of rag/rac/softclipping possibly. All of which have a big trade off somewhere.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 21:31
hhm, the question about the right ratio / balance of TF and FF seems missleading to me. the moment you activate the non-linear rag/rab/rac or softclipper module the equivalence tf 75 / ff 100 versus tf 100 / ff 75 seems obsolete, in terms of not given, to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a 1:1 relation. Only that if you run one at 100, then it's probably best to run the other at 75 or lower. And the TF scale goes to 200, so there's no telling if 100 is 100% or 50%.



I use Low GMFFB Because the V2 has a very sensitive input gain...it only Needs a tad bit of FFB input and the v2 on wheel FFB Really amps it up!!! even if you use GMFFB 100 the wheel will not be stronger than it was designed to be Ex: if the wheel is max 7newton meters of torque at 30 GMFFB it will still only be 7 Newton meters of torque using 100 GMFFB the extra unused FFB current will be grounded out and dissipated as heat... so i balance My GMFFB right to middle where if i + i feel power increase and a decrease with - there is a point with the v2 that + does not Boost power and - will Not reduce FFB the v2/Fanatec wheels will have FFB even if GMFFF is 0... so its best to run FFB in the Middle

What do you mean by extra current? The game isn't sending any current to wheel, just values that tell the wheel base how much force to apply/use. Which is where the soft clipping comes in. It tells the game to rescale values that are out of the wheel's range to values it can use. So a game value of 2.0 gets transmitted as 1.0, instead of being dropped (i.e. clipping). Unless I'm totally not understand it (which could be the case :) ), I don't see where any extra current would be coming from. In fact, that just seems like it would dangerous.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 21:37
I don't really think they are reversible myself. Its never felt the same to me. With ffb at 100 you wind up using the ffb adjustments to control wheel weight besides the fact the wheel manufacturer gave us a recommended setting. Notice I said recommended.lol Most of us have tried the 100ffb route and found it just doesn't work right on consoles except for maybe the csw where you can control it at the wheel like a pc. At least for me it seems a lot of the grittiness that is encountered with the t300 comes from running above 75ffb. Once ffb is set to 100 on consoles the only ways to control ffb weight is with gain which kills the range on the hud and tf which limits the forces we want to feel or some combination of rag/rac/softclipping possibly. All of which have a big trade off somewhere.

I agree that high FF isn't the way to go. Just pointing out that some people still use it, because they like the feel. And, IMO, it's not a detriment to the wheel hardware, as long as you make adjustments elsewhere to avoid overstressing the motor. But I am going to try playing with different FF/TF balances. They'll all favor TF, though, and FF will never be over 75.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 21:37
i have to throw in a thought that is a irrelevant as charming: i think it was an english guy who once said, the great thing about a man's hobby is, it's totally useless, doesn't have a purpose, is non political, can be quite bizzare, but satisfying, giving fun, and a great way to meet people in a great way, far beside the usual calamities of every day concerns and importances. cheers on that! i will miss this discussion, when there is nothing to discuss any more.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 21:44
i have to throw in a thought that is a irrelevant as charming: i think it was an english guy who once said, the great thing about a man's hobby is, it's totally useless, doesn't have a purpose, is non political, can be quite bizzare, but satisfying, giving fun, and a great way to meet people in a great way, far beside the usual calamities of every day concerns and importances. cheers on that! i will miss this discussion, when there is nothing to discuss any more.

Maybe that's why SMS doesn't comment on the FFB. They want to keep the band together. LOL :D

morpwr
28-01-2016, 21:48
I agree that high FF isn't the way to go. Just pointing out that some people still use it, because they like the feel. And, IMO, it's not a detriment to the wheel hardware, as long as you make adjustments elsewhere to avoid overstressing the motor. But I am going to try playing with different FF/TF balances. They'll all favor TF, though, and FF will never be over 75.

I think I didn't exactly get what you were saying originally but yes we are in agreement as long as you limit the forces somehow to a reasonable level the wheel will be ok.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 21:53
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a 1:1 relation. Only that if you run one at 100, then it's probably best to run the other at 75 or lower. And the TF scale goes to 200, so there's no telling if 100 is 100% or 50%.



What do you mean by extra current? The game isn't sending any current to wheel, just values that tell the wheel base how much force to apply/use. Which is where the soft clipping comes in. It tells the game to rescale values that are out of the wheel's range to values it can use. So a game value of 2.0 gets transmitted as 1.0, instead of being dropped (i.e. clipping). Unless I'm totally not understand it (which could be the case :) ), I don't see where any extra current would be coming from. In fact, that just seems like it would dangerous.

"current" in terms of signal strength within a technically valid signal strength value corridor puts it as correct or misleading as every other wording you may use to describe a tricky matter where the borders between absolute and relative signal processings are hard to draw. the normalized output 0.00 - 1.00 (after HUD, before FFB) can be "amplified" / scaled by FFB to a new signal strength corridor that can "heat" the wheel. in other words, digital signals and analogue (voltage current) signals are equivalent in terms of being capable of being too strong or too low for a "suitable" processing in the next stage of the signal chain. saying so, without knowing the exact quantization bit rate and parameters we don't know where digital clipping or controlled limiting or compression, or damaging overdrive, happens.

how to say it briefly? :D it's the reason why the european sound engineer isn't so happy to plug his equipment in in an american studio, he might cook the the guys inputs or must lift up his signals lifting up noise as well.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 21:54
i wasn't precise. indeed it's not about the absolute strength of a wheel, it's about how does the wheel "handle" incoming signals. and different wheels interprete the incoming signals differently, to say the least... :D heck, how to give the ones who didn't have the time or passion to follow that thread permanently a simple helping hand to benefit from what was sweatened out by the many who took a deeper dive... :-) while conditions change from patch to patch...

you are always precise and on point:cool: I just helped to fine tune the points that were already brought to light.
We the posters of this thread are like the Borg...a Group of collective intelligence...each person with different methods and specialties but acting as 1 to get to the final FFB solution.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/C79AV_22NPg/hqdefault.jpg

Haiden
28-01-2016, 22:02
Also, regarding TF. The reason I want to see how it feels at lowers levels is because I think the global TF is like a base force setting for the individual in-car scales. As the FFB chart shows, that setting is feeding all four scales (and SoP) with the same value. It's only when you get to the in-car setting that you start manipulating the scale values individually. So, according to the chart, your in-car adjustments are running on top/in addition to the global force level TF is pushing into the scales. So I'm thinking that lowering the TF, could lower that base value riding beneath the in-car scales, and provide more room to make adjustments. In fact, it does work that way, high TF could be the reason Mz and Fy contribute to wheel oscillation with high in-car Masters. Not because the individual scale values are too high, but because the base force they're riding on is too high, which in turns limits the amount of additional individual force you can apply in-car.

I don't know if that makes sense. It's hard to explain and might seem a bit circular. But even if global TF is the whole force and in-car scales are for attenuation/amplification, the principle behind the idea is the same. A lower TF would provide more room to work at the in-car level.

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 22:03
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a 1:1 relation. Only that if you run one at 100, then it's probably best to run the other at 75 or lower. And the TF scale goes to 200, so there's no telling if 100 is 100% or 50%.



What do you mean by extra current? The game isn't sending any current to wheel, just values that tell the wheel base how much force to apply/use. Which is where the soft clipping comes in. It tells the game to rescale values that are out of the wheel's range to values it can use. So a game value of 2.0 gets transmitted as 1.0, instead of being dropped (i.e. clipping). Unless I'm totally not understand it (which could be the case :) ), I don't see where any extra current would be coming from. In fact, that just seems like it would dangerous.

any way you look at it FFB is electric current based... its just sending Oscillating Current's to represent FFB values... These current value's change + or - in strength according to your Global, in car FFB settings and how high you have your GMFFB set for final at the wheel power level.... same as you think to move your hand to type your brain sends a signal/current to make your hand move. and yes your brain sens a stronger signal when you need to use more force:p

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 22:19
Note: with 8.0 i had to Reduce my TF to 92 to get Rid of the over powered FFB Feel...other than that all settings remain the same.

I,ve been testing it out all week and SMS has definitleyRaised the TF!!!
Reducing the TF IMO is the best way to get rid of the Extra wheel weight that has been added with the TF power increase, Nothing else seemed to work for and feel good to me with out a Total FFB Tweek make over.

Ooops No Bueno...i was Wrong!!! This is wrong its not working to cure anything!!!

morpwr
28-01-2016, 22:25
Also, regarding TF. The reason I want to see how it feels at lowers levels is because I think the global TF is like a base force setting for the individual in-car scales. As the FFB chart shows, that setting is feeding all four scales (and SoP) with the same value. It's only when you get to the in-car setting that you start manipulating the scale values individually. So, according to the chart, your in-car adjustments are running on top/in addition to the global force level TF is pushing into the scales. So I'm thinking that lowering the TF, could lower that base value riding beneath the in-car scales, and provide more room to make adjustments. In fact, it does work that way, high TF could be the reason Mz and Fy contribute to wheel oscillation with high in-car Masters. Not because the individual scale values are too high, but because the base force they're riding on is too high, which in turns limits the amount of additional individual force you can apply in-car.

I don't know if that makes sense. It's hard to explain and might seem a bit circular. But even if global TF is the whole force and in-car scales are for attenuation/amplification, the principle behind the idea is the same. A lower TF would provide more room to work at the in-car level.

Actually if you read the description for tf it says the percentage of the forces so basically a volume control for the car ffb after they have been calculated. That's what I get out of that anyways.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 22:27
Also, regarding TF. The reason I want to see how it feels at lowers levels is because I think the global TF is like a base force setting for the individual in-car scales. As the FFB chart shows, that setting is feeding all four scales (and SoP) with the same value. It's only when you get to the in-car setting that you start manipulating the scale values individually. So, according to the chart, your in-car adjustments are running on top/in addition to the global force level TF is pushing into the scales. So I'm thinking that lowering the TF, could lower that base value riding beneath the in-car scales, and provide more room to make adjustments. In fact, it does work that way, high TF could be the reason Mz and Fy contribute to wheel oscillation with high in-car Masters. Not because the individual scale values are too high, but because the base force they're riding on is too high, which in turns limits the amount of additional individual force you can apply in-car.

I don't know if that makes sense. It's hard to explain and might seem a bit circular. But even if global TF is the whole force and in-car scales are for attenuation/amplification, the principle behind the idea is the same. A lower TF would provide more room to work at the in-car level.

TF is set in the globals (evoking the impression that TF is a collected force from Fxyzm at the end of the chain) but it works at the very beginning of the signal chain. Thus TF is actually part of the in-car level. Fyxzm multiplies/scales with TF to the signal that enter the following modules (rag, sc, sg), even while TF "sits" in the globals which seems to be at later stage in the signal chain. in so far i think SMS just was't stringent in terms of being logical with their control panel interface.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 22:35
Actually if you read the description for tf it says the percentage of the forces so basically a volume control for the car ffb after they have been calculated. That's what I get out of that anyways.


TF is set in the globals (evoking the impression that TF is a collected force from Fxyzm at the end of the chain) but it works at the very beginning of the signal chain.
It's at the beginning of the chain. That my point, why I referred to it as a "base" the in-car scales work on.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 22:37
Actually if you read the description for tf it says the percentage of the forces so basically a volume control for the car ffb after they have been calculated. That's what I get out of that anyways.

that's how it see it too. see my previous post.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 22:38
It's at the beginning of the chain. That my point, why I referred to it as a "base" the in-car scales work on.

... we solved it! :D

GrimeyDog
28-01-2016, 22:45
:D

no way :D

I cant drift to save my ars....Maybe:confused: LOL

morpwr
28-01-2016, 23:08
Although it would have been great to just pick this up and play its actually been alot of fun and stress learning how it works. You take a lot for granted especially with something like this. How many of us knew about the magic formula before this? I'm sure alot could care less but I like that kind of stuff. Knowing how things work.

Haiden
28-01-2016, 23:33
that's how it see it too. see my previous post.

Right. And, using the stereo analogy... Regardless, of how well you equalize the sound, speakers (wheels) only sound good with the receiver on full blast when they are rated above the receiver's max output, like an AccuForce direct drive wheel. The TX, T300, and CSW-v2s are mid-level consumer wheels. With TF=100, we may be cranking the volume too loud. I don't know--just talking right now. But it's something I plan to test this weekend.

SGETI
28-01-2016, 23:35
Wow dude! But I gotta publish my latest data, mine in that sheet is sooooo old!

I try to read the thread daily but sometimes real life gets in the way. So I may miss someones new setup, sorry. Post your new set up in here and I will transfer, maybe just drop me a note that you have updated your settings so I do not miss.

tennenbaum
28-01-2016, 23:43
I try to read the thread daily but sometimes real life gets in the way. So I may miss someones new setup, sorry. Post your new set up in here and I will transfer, maybe just drop me a note that you have updated your settings so I do not miss.

... this is a quite fast and active thread, you have to keep one eye open while you sleep. ( i guess this is a very german idiom ;-)

poirqc
29-01-2016, 01:01
I just want to say thanks to everyone who talked about all FFB aspect. You made me get out of my train of thoughts. All this time, i tried different angle of attacks. Some gave better results than others.

Well, i've reach the end of the road. Since patch #8, i've got to say that the Classic template, paired with a GMFFB of 100%, on the PC give a good FFB by itself! I think i'll settle for that for a long while.

It's funny that after spending so much time in the FFB menus, i'll settle with the default settings! That means SMS did a great job after all. I think a new player can enjoy the game by itself right away!

It's time to spend that time racing and garaging instead!

Have fun guys, race good! :D

Haiden
29-01-2016, 01:19
I did a little testing with the different FF/TF balance. The difference between the various settings was nominal. My times were about the same, but there was too much saturation in the wheel for me. Then I tried raising the Scoop Knee and Reduction, and everything changed. The same FF/TF settings that felt oversaturated before, suddenly felt alive and strong. I went back in and raised Scoop Knee to 0.80 and Reduction to 0.28. Not only did it feel even better, but I shaved .200 off my lap time in the first hot lap. Usually, it takes me 2-3 laps to start settling in when I make big global changes, so I can only imagine how much faster I'll be after some time on the track.

My take is, the higher Knee and Reduction are taking a lot of the FF saturation out of the lower range, and keeping it in the high range forces, where it's less intrusive. With the higher Knee and Reduction, I feel a lot more road detail and surface texture, turn easier and tighter in the slow corners, and can push harder through the sweepers.

I've got a lot more testing to do, but right now I'm running FF/TF at 75/100 with the new Knee and Reduction settings, and I'm feeling more detail than I felt with FF=40.

morpwr
29-01-2016, 01:38
I just want to say thanks to everyone who talked about all FFB aspect. You made me get out of my train of thoughts. All this time, i tried different angle of attacks. Some gave better results than others.

Well, i've reach the end of the road. Since patch #8, i've got to say that the Classic template, paired with a GMFFB of 100%, on the PC give a good FFB by itself! I think i'll settle for that for a long while.

It's funny that after spending so much time in the FFB menus, i'll settle with the default settings! That means SMS did a great job after all. I think a new player can enjoy the game by itself right away!

It's time to spend that time racing and garaging instead!

Have fun guys, race good! :D

Same here pretty much default settings with a little scoop adjustment and just turn down the game ffb a little. Its nice being able to go I want this effect and being able to do it without guessing anymore. I think everybody here did a great job sharing ideas without bickering and we all learned a lot from each other. We all have countless hours in this at this point. How many games would have made you spend this much time trying to figure out how to use it?lol I think sms has done something really good here or I would have said screw this along time ago. Obviously many of us feel the same way because youre still here. At least people buying the game now wont be going in blind like we did. They have options that will work from the beginning.

morpwr
29-01-2016, 01:46
I did a little testing with the different FF/TF balance. The difference between the various settings was nominal. My times were about the same, but there was too much saturation in the wheel for me. Then I tried raising the Scoop Knee and Reduction, and everything changed. The same FF/TF settings that felt oversaturated before, suddenly felt alive and strong. I went back in and raised Scoop Knee to 0.80 and Reduction to 0.28. Not only did it feel even better, but I shaved .200 off my lap time in the first hot lap. Usually, it takes me 2-3 laps to start settling in when I make big global changes, so I can only imagine how much faster I'll be after some time on the track.

My take is, the higher Knee and Reduction are taking a lot of the FF saturation out of the lower range, and keeping it in the high range forces, where it's less intrusive. With the higher Knee and Reduction, I feel a lot more road detail and surface texture, turn easier and tighter in the slow corners, and can push harder through the sweepers.

I've got a lot more testing to do, but right now I'm running FF/TF at 75/100 with the new Knee and Reduction settings, and I'm feeling more detail than I felt with FF=40.

That's almost exactly my scoop settings. You can use scoop to sort of help the ffb if the wheel weight is close. I found exactly the same results as you when playing with them. Ive found its easier to set the weight with the ffb master first then play with those after.Its really easy to feel what they are doing if you aren't changing the ffb master.

GrimeyDog
29-01-2016, 02:03
Note: with 8.0 i had to Reduce my TF to 92 to get Rid of the over powered FFB Feel...other than that all settings remain the same.

I,ve been testing it out all week and SMS has definitleyRaised the TF!!!
Reducing the TF IMO is the best way to get rid of the Extra wheel weight that has been added with the TF power increase, Nothing else seemed to work for and feel good to me with out a Total FFB Tweek make over.

Ooops No Bueno...i was Wrong!!! This is wrong its not working to cure anything!!!



When i realized My wheel was running 15 degrees Hotter i figured out whats been changed!!!


I first thought the change was in the Tire force so i tuned TF down to 90... The wheel was still very strong and heavy compared to what it was with 6.0 and 7.0... I,ve been adjusting the Game master FFB all week and still No good results....I use a fanatec V2 and i know that when the game master FFB is set too High The extra FFB current fed to the wheel is grounded out and dissipated as heat, I noticed that the wheel was running hotter than the norm which is usually 90*F to 101*F... i use a infrared thermometer to monitor wheel temp while Tweeking FFB or after updates to to Pcars to make sure I'm Not feeding the wheel more FFB input than it needs due to changes in the FFB system...After this update my v2 was running 15 degrees Hotter than Normal with My Normal same settings used!!!

For some reason it seems that the RAC power output has been increased:confused:... take a good Look at your FFB Graph i noticed even though i was Not clipping the Graph was a tad bit higher than it was with 6 and 7.0
The solution Turn down the RAC.... the RAC will will reduce the FFB power level without losing Dynamic range.

in this video RAC was set to 50 note how the FFB Graph stays to the middle of the FFB Box and the FFB strength was reduced according to the RAC value set. same test was done at 70, 90 and for each test the FFB line moved up the box according to the value set ex: at 90 the line move up to the 90% of box volume and the power of the FFB was also increased accordingly.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM


After i reduced the RAC my normal settings worked again like they used to:yes::D

Yes i know some will be skeptical but don't knock it until you try it... Very simple to test.

Haiden
29-01-2016, 04:23
That's almost exactly my scoop settings. You can use scoop to sort of help the ffb if the wheel weight is close. I found exactly the same results as you when playing with them. Ive found its easier to set the weight with the ffb master first then play with those after.Its really easy to feel what they are doing if you aren't changing the ffb master.

It's crazy. I don't know what SMS did, or if I've just been overlooking this, but I hope they're done tweaking the FFB...LOL I just got done playing for about two hours straight, testing all my favorite cars, and they feel GREAT. Poirqc's comment got me thinking, so I went back to the default globals, and simply made two changes.

Scoop Knee=0.80
Scoop Reduction =0.26

I didn't touch anything else. The default FF/TF For the CSW-v2 is 50/100, and I left the wheel level FF on the CSW-v2 set to 100.

I then tested the in-car defaults, and they felt good, just a little light, so I ended up making these three changes.

Master = 42
Sop Scale = 42
Sop Diff =100

I left everything else at default and the cars all felt great. I couldn't be happier with it. Finally...back to racing. :D

inthebagbud
29-01-2016, 04:31
It's crazy. I don't know what SMS did, or if I've just been overlooking this,

I left everything else at default and the cars all felt great. I couldn't be happier with it. Finally...back to racing. :D

On the xbox I have had to alter settings 3 or 4 times after patches and have been convinced for a while that oder the hood changes had been made but not documented

Oh and I am sure you will be back at sometime :D

Haiden
29-01-2016, 04:39
On the xbox I have had to alter settings 3 or 4 times after patches and have been convinced for a while that oder the hood changes had been made but not documented

Oh and I am sure you will be back at sometime :D

Maybe not. SMS has to shift from major updates at some point, and I think that time is coming. They've already said the DLC is ending in a few months. They'll still support PCars and deal with a few of the remaining bugs, but the major physics and handling changes have to be coming to end soon. :)

P1ckN1cker2406
29-01-2016, 10:22
When i realized My wheel was running 15 degrees Hotter i figured out whats been changed!!!


I first thought the change was in the Tire force so i tuned TF down to 90... The wheel was still very strong and heavy compared to what it was with 6.0 and 7.0... I,ve been adjusting the Game master FFB all week and still No good results....I use a fanatec V2 and i know that when the game master FFB is set too High The extra FFB current fed to the wheel is grounded out and dissipated as heat, I noticed that the wheel was running hotter than the norm which is usually 90*F to 101*F... i use a infrared thermometer to monitor wheel temp while Tweeking FFB or after updates to to Pcars to make sure I'm Not feeding the wheel more FFB input than it needs due to changes in the FFB system...After this update my v2 was running 15 degrees Hotter than Normal with My Normal same settings used!!!

For some reason it seems that the RAC power output has been increased:confused:... take a good Look at your FFB Graph i noticed even though i was Not clipping the Graph was a tad bit higher than it was with 6 and 7.0
The solution Turn down the RAC.... the RAC will will reduce the FFB power level without losing Dynamic range.

in this video RAC was set to 50 note how the FFB Graph stays to the middle of the FFB Box and the FFB strength was reduced according to the RAC value set. same test was done at 70, 90 and for each test the FFB line moved up the box according to the value set ex: at 90 the line move up to the 90% of box volume and the power of the FFB was also increased accordingly.

https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM


After i reduced the RAC my normal settings worked again like they used to:yes::D

Yes i know some will be skeptical but don't knock it until you try it... Very simple to test.

How much did you reduced the RAC?

morpwr
29-01-2016, 11:10
On the xbox I have had to alter settings 3 or 4 times after patches and have been convinced for a while that oder the hood changes had been made but not documented

Oh and I am sure you will be back at sometime :D

I'm sure there has been stuff done and not mentioned especially after this last patch.

morpwr
29-01-2016, 11:13
It's crazy. I don't know what SMS did, or if I've just been overlooking this, but I hope they're done tweaking the FFB...LOL I just got done playing for about two hours straight, testing all my favorite cars, and they feel GREAT. Poirqc's comment got me thinking, so I went back to the default globals, and simply made two changes.

Scoop Knee=0.80
Scoop Reduction =0.26

I didn't touch anything else. The default FF/TF For the CSW-v2 is 50/100, and I left the wheel level FF on the CSW-v2 set to 100.

I then tested the in-car defaults, and they felt good, just a little light, so I ended up making these three changes.

Master = 42
Sop Scale = 42
Sop Diff =100

I left everything else at default and the cars all felt great. I couldn't be happier with it. Finally...back to racing. :D

I said that a while back. Start with the defaults again. Whatever sms did the defaults are a very good starting point now.

morpwr
29-01-2016, 11:17
Maybe not. SMS has to shift from major updates at some point, and I think that time is coming. They've already said the DLC is ending in a few months. They'll still support PCars and deal with a few of the remaining bugs, but the major physics and handling changes have to be coming to end soon. :)

Somewhere one of the mods said there will not be anymore major changes to the tire model after this patch. So we should be pretty safe.lol I'm ok with that as I think the new tire model is pretty good.

GrimeyDog
29-01-2016, 11:17
Im Still Studying it but i Reduced from 92 to 90 and the Good feel came Back!!! I even went down to 80 and the Good Feel and power was Still there... I havent settled on a # yet... it was bed time when i thought to look into this... but Reducing the RAC is the way to Go IMO... and the Plus is that Since it Reduces All Forces within the Relative system before the steering Gain it Keeps you out of the Clipping Zone!!! and you Still Have Full Dynamic FFB Range.

I have also Made New Findings with the RAG but im Not Ready to put it out until further testing.

GrimeyDog
29-01-2016, 11:23
Some One Give me a break down on the RAG settings... I Need to compare Notes to see if all the Facts are adding up...

What i Noticed was that reducing RAG Lightens the wheel up a Tad bit but its Not due to a FFB power Reduction... any thoughts??? What are your Findings or ideas about what RAG Does?

P1ckN1cker2406
29-01-2016, 11:23
Im Still Studying it but i Reduced from 92 to 90 and the Good feel came Back!!! I even went down to 80 and the Good Feel and power was Still there... I havent settled on a # yet... it was bed time when i thought to look into this... but Reducing the RAC is the way to Go IMO... and the Plus is that Since it Reduces All Forces within the Relative system before the steering Gain it Keeps you out of the Clipping Zone!!! and you Still Have Full Dynamic FFB Range.

I have also Made New Findings with the RAG but im Not Ready to put it out until further testing.

Thx, will try it out later.

GrimeyDog
29-01-2016, 11:27
Thx, will try it out later.

Let Me Know what # you come up with...

P1ckN1cker2406
29-01-2016, 12:36
Let Me Know what # you come up with...

I think i go with RAC at 0.75. Feels like before the Patch where i had it at 0.85. RAG are still at 0.98 and RAB still at 0.12.

GrimeyDog
29-01-2016, 13:07
Yup... Every thing Else is the Same... Thanks for Confirming that it works and Not just Placebo due to random Testing... LOL.

This Patch may have made some Good Changes after All!!! Now i Need to Study More the RAG!!! Do me a Favor Set RAG to 100 and Tell Me what you Feel, Then Set RAG to 90 to compare and Post the Diff between 100, 98, 90 i want to know if you Notice the same thing i Feel.... This could be very interesting.

P1ckN1cker2406
29-01-2016, 14:01
Yup... Every thing Else is the Same... Thanks for Confirming that it works and Not just Placebo due to random Testing... LOL.

This Patch may have made some Good Changes after All!!! Now i Need to Study More the RAG!!! Do me a Favor Set RAG to 100 and Tell Me what you Feel, Then Set RAG to 90 to compare and Post the Diff between 100, 98, 90 i want to know if you Notice the same thing i Feel.... This could be very interesting.

I did such testing with RAG many times. My feeling is if i raise RAG the FFB gets more saturated and the Road Surface Details like bumps, curbs and such are getting heavier also. But the risk of Clipping is also higher. But i will test your values also and post what i notice.