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gotdirt410sprintcar
29-01-2016, 16:11
I think clamp and bleed need to be close to one another gain is the torque over time not all at once. I had gain down to 60 with 1.20 clamp and bleed it felt good but center of wheel was light on the straights and the forces where a little sticky .
If i add deadzone that should bring back the center off the wheel ? And i have falloff only 5 clicks go to ten clicks the wheel tighten's up i have noticed and thats with 0 deadzone .

morpwr
29-01-2016, 18:42
Some One Give me a break down on the RAG settings... I Need to compare Notes to see if all the Facts are adding up...

What i Noticed was that reducing RAG Lightens the wheel up a Tad bit but its Not due to a FFB power Reduction... any thoughts??? What are your Findings or ideas about what RAG Does?

Rac is just that the value it works around so lower value lower starting point and lighter wheel. I think its the reasoning with jacks last wheel settings clamp at .85 and gain at 1.50 problem was with the t300 you couldn't get it to work before this patch but I may revisit it now. You wind up with more room for those to work. But he changed other things also. Lower tf to 75 and gain at 1.30ish.

Haiden
29-01-2016, 22:01
Hopped in the new Ford, set the Master Scale to 42 and took off. No other adjustments needed, and it's so much fun to drive. Whatever SMS did, the new defaults are so much easier to work with. Once you find your Scoop settings, the cars are pretty much plug and play. :)

morpwr
30-01-2016, 15:33
Hopped in the new Ford, set the Master Scale to 42 and took off. No other adjustments needed, and it's so much fun to drive. Whatever SMS did, the new defaults are so much easier to work with. Once you find your Scoop settings, the cars are pretty much plug and play. :)

I'm pretty much done tweaking its so easy to get a really good feel now.:D Revisited jacks scoop values last night and I really like them now that they work. You just do everything like its listed in the tweaker files and turn down the ffb master for wheel weight. Its not a lot different but different. I knew what he was trying to do but you couldn't make it work on the t300 before with whatever was screwed up. Basically lowering the wheel weight while leaving a bigger range to work in and amplifying the signal later in the chain. The new cars and tracks are awesome!!!! Going to need a lot of practice with the mazda. lol

SGETI
30-01-2016, 16:07
Revisited jacks scoop values last night and I really like them now that they work.

What numbers are you referring to? .68 .18

Haiden
30-01-2016, 16:56
I'm pretty much done tweaking its so easy to get a really good feel now.:D Revisited jacks scoop values last night and I really like them now that they work. You just do everything like its listed in the tweaker files and turn down the ffb master for wheel weight. Its not a lot different but different. I knew what he was trying to do but you couldn't make it work on the t300 before with whatever was screwed up. Basically lowering the wheel weight while leaving a bigger range to work in and amplifying the signal later in the chain. The new cars and tracks are awesome!!!! Going to need a lot of practice with the mazda. lol

Pretty sure I am, too. I really think the Scoop is all you need to figure out now. I'm running Knee/Reduction at 0.80/0.26, and have gone through just about every car I like, using the default in-car settings. I just raise the Master Scale to 42, and the SoP Scale equally--when the SMS defaults use them--and all of the cars feel good and have great dynamic range. I've even started leaving the smoothing at default. Most of the time, there's just a simple 10 increments of smoothing on the Fx scale. But I've seen a few with other settings, and SoP Diff and Lat can vary. I think SMS made these small changes for a reason--attempting to better simulate the car's real life characteristics and feel.

spacepadrille
30-01-2016, 17:31
I'm pretty much done tweaking its so easy to get a really good feel now.:D Revisited jacks scoop values last night and I really like them now that they work. You just do everything like its listed in the tweaker files and turn down the ffb master for wheel weight. Its not a lot different but different. I knew what he was trying to do but you couldn't make it work on the t300 before with whatever was screwed up. Basically lowering the wheel weight while leaving a bigger range to work in and amplifying the signal later in the chain. The new cars and tracks are awesome!!!! Going to need a lot of practice with the mazda. lol

Hi morpwr ! I was happy with your settings (TF 100, RAG 0.98, RAB 0.10, RAC 0.92, SK 0.70, SR 0.22, SG 1.00), and your last post make me curious to see what happens with JS global settings. If I well understood you, I just copy the JS values (TF 0.75, RAG 1.50, RAB 0.10, RAC 0.85, SK 0.86, SR 0.28, SG 1.45). I did it, and try the Ruf and the clio with it on the new scottish track (I love). Like you said, it's not so different, but different. I mean the wheel is more dynamic, you feel more things about the road and what do the wheels. I had to use the Fx and Mz smoothing otherwise the wheel is too crispy. But it's good ! And I don't even know witch setting I prefer ! I use FF 0.75 in both cases.

But I have a question : I read on this forum many times that SK and SR where wheel dependant. So I wonder what are the good values for T300 ? Jack's values are for CSW2. Do you use SK 0.86 and SR 0.28 or your values SK 0.70 and SR 0.22 ?

And yes the new cars are amazing. The Mazda is sooo hard !

morpwr
30-01-2016, 18:27
What numbers are you referring to? .68 .18

Yes ill try and post the final numbers later. But haidens are going to be really close to what I wind up with and at that point you can just move them up or down a little from there. It will end up more personal preference at that point.

morpwr
30-01-2016, 18:44
Hi morpwr ! I was happy with your settings (TF 100, RAG 0.98, RAB 0.10, RAC 0.92, SK 0.70, SR 0.22, SG 1.00), and your last post make me curious to see what happens with JS global settings. If I well understood you, I just copy the JS values (TF 0.75, RAG 1.50, RAB 0.10, RAC 0.85, SK 0.86, SR 0.28, SG 1.45). I did it, and try the Ruf and the clio with it on the new scottish track (I love). Like you said, it's not so different, but different. I mean the wheel is more dynamic, you feel more things about the road and what do the wheels. I had to use the Fx and Mz smoothing otherwise the wheel is too crispy. But it's good ! And I don't even know witch setting I prefer ! I use FF 0.75 in both cases.

But I have a question : I read on this forum many times that SK and SR where wheel dependant. So I wonder what are the good values for T300 ? Jack's values are for CSW2. Do you use SK 0.86 and SR 0.28 or your values SK 0.70 and SR 0.22 ?

And yes the new cars are amazing. The Mazda is sooo hard !

Problem with any settings from before patch 8 is things have changed drastically. Luckily its for the better. Yes just use his but I don't think I got the gain as high as he did but ill have to check.Just watch for alot of clipping. The scoops wont be a huge difference at this point and mine will be close to those. Its really going to come down to preference with those at this point. Yes as a starting point they are wheel dependent but you can do whatever you want with them to help you. Luckily those are pretty close for a t300 anyways. Lowering them will raise the lower forces and raising them the opposite effect. Id go 2 at a time if you want to play with those so you can actually notice it. Yes at this point I would leave the smoothing if its there. I ll try and post my final numbers later.

morpwr
30-01-2016, 18:47
Pretty sure I am, too. I really think the Scoop is all you need to figure out now. I'm running Knee/Reduction at 0.80/0.26, and have gone through just about every car I like, using the default in-car settings. I just raise the Master Scale to 42, and the SoP Scale equally--when the SMS defaults use them--and all of the cars feel good and have great dynamic range. I've even started leaving the smoothing at default. Most of the time, there's just a simple 10 increments of smoothing on the Fx scale. But I've seen a few with other settings, and SoP Diff and Lat can vary. I think SMS made these small changes for a reason--attempting to better simulate the car's real life characteristics and feel.

Me too I figure the same thing you did. They put it there for a reason. Now that we aren't trying to band aid the game with the ffb settings its easy.:D

I keep forgetting to ask you as you have both. How much better is the v2 and is it worth the money?

tennenbaum
30-01-2016, 18:55
I'm pretty much done tweaking its so easy to get a really good feel now.:D Revisited jacks scoop values last night and I really like them now that they work. You just do everything like its listed in the tweaker files and turn down the ffb master for wheel weight. Its not a lot different but different. I knew what he was trying to do but you couldn't make it work on the t300 before with whatever was screwed up. Basically lowering the wheel weight while leaving a bigger range to work in and amplifying the signal later in the chain. The new cars and tracks are awesome!!!! Going to need a lot of practice with the mazda. lol

Funny: Since patch 8.0 Jacks tweaker files seem to prove more valid than ever, on the other hand people praise SMS' 100/100/100/100 defaults. How come?
What i find remarkable on top of it: Jack is still promoting his FFB master = 100 recommendation, arguing any lower than that would increase deadzone. At the same time people aren't afraid at all to use FFB like the 'volume' knob.

Hhm, on the latter i miss skoaders voice here :-) He was alwys last man standing for me if it comes to make details of wished or non-wished non-linearities comprehensive...

spacepadrille
30-01-2016, 18:55
Problem with any settings from before patch 8 is things have changed drastically. Luckily its for the better. Yes just use his but I don't think I got the gain as high as he did but ill have to check.Just watch for alot of clipping. The scoops wont be a huge difference at this point and mine will be close to those. Its really going to come down to preference with those at this point. Yes as a starting point they are wheel dependent but you can do whatever you want with them to help you. Luckily those are pretty close for a t300 anyways. Lowering them will raise the lower forces and raising them the opposite effect. Id go 2 at a time if you want to play with those so you can actually notice it. Yes at this point I would leave the smoothing if its there. I ll try and post my final numbers later.

Ok thanks a lot ! I'm actually playing (let's tweak again ;-)) with the numbers. Yes gain 1.45 is too much I think so. If I find something fantastic I will post it, otherwise I'm waiting for your final numbers. I know FFB is personal feeling, but you have the same hardware than me, so your final settings will be the best starting point for me.

tennenbaum
30-01-2016, 19:11
Ok thanks a lot ! I'm actually playing (let's tweak again ;-)) with the numbers. Yes RAG 1.50 is too much I think so. If I find something fantastic I will post it, otherwise I'm waiting for your final numbers. I know FFB is personal feeling, but you have the same hardware than me, so your final settings will be the best starting point for me.

Let's tweak again!:cool:

poirqc
30-01-2016, 21:14
I would write stuff if the Stanceworks DLC wasn't out. But it is. I'll go drive instead! :D

Haiden
30-01-2016, 22:17
Me too I figure the same thing you did. They put it there for a reason. Now that we aren't trying to band aid the game with the ffb settings its easy.:D

I keep forgetting to ask you as you have both. How much better is the v2 and is it worth the money?

If you think of sim racing as a long term hobby, then definitely. The build quality just sets off any rig. There's nothing toy-like about it. And unless Fanatec comes out with something better down the road, I'd say the wheel and pedal aspect of my rig's evolution is done. Even if it broke, I'd just buy another. :) Overall, the wheel is stronger and smoother, even the sandy-like grindy you sometimes get with some PCars' settings has a smoother rubbery feel to it. There's more detail in the wheel and the steering is more precise. The V3 pedals are the real value, though. They will definitely improve your lap times. Some people said it took them a while to get used to the load cell brake, but I fell right into it. It's highly adjustable, and I recommend getting the damper. It's super easy to install. I loved my T300, but I wish I had of just got the Clubsport setup first.

Also, there are no redundant buttons on the wheel. For some reason, two of them can't be mapped. I can't remember where that falls--SMS or Fanatec--but I think I remember hearing whoever the issue belongs to saying they would address it down the road. Still, there are more than enough buttons on the wheel. I think I still have two open, because I could think what to put on it. Both analog switches can be mapped separately, four buttons each, plus the rotary dial on the right stick. You'll love the V3 pedals, though. They are amazing.

morpwr
30-01-2016, 22:24
Ok thanks a lot ! I'm actually playing (let's tweak again ;-)) with the numbers. Yes gain 1.45 is too much I think so. If I find something fantastic I will post it, otherwise I'm waiting for your final numbers. I know FFB is personal feeling, but you have the same hardware than me, so your final settings will be the best starting point for me.

I think gain at 1.30 was as much as I could run without a lot of clipping.

morpwr
30-01-2016, 22:44
Funny: Since patch 8.0 Jacks tweaker files seem to prove more valid than ever, on the other hand people praise SMS' 100/100/100/100 defaults. Home come?
What i find remarkable on top of it: Jack is still promoting his FFB master = 100 recommendation, arguing any lower than that would increase deadzone. At the same time people aren't afraid at all to use FFB like the 'volume' knob.

Hhm, on the latter i miss skoaders voice here :-) He was alwys last man standing for me if it comes to make details of wished or non-wished non-linearities comprehensive...

Yes jacks work great now. His only problem at this point consoles at least ps4 cant run ffb master at 100 you have to use this to set the overall ffb. That and gain cant be set as high as pc from what I can tell 1.30 is about max to eliminate a lot of clipping on the ps4. On the deadzone issue again he is assuming pc and consoles work exactly the same from what I can tell they don't. I find I need less deadzone this way. Not a huge difference but still less. If he would just listen to someone that has a console and adjust his thinking he would make this alot easier on new users just going to his tweaks as a starting point. They do work very well you just CANNOT set ffb master to 100 or my guess is above the sms default for whatever wheel you are using on consoles. All of us here know what happens when you turn ffb master to 100 on consoles you turn down the very things we want to feel so the wheel isn't super strong. But that's just my opinion. Yeah as it seems our search is coming to a close I will say I'm going to miss all the technical stuff from you,poirq,and skoader. Ive learned so much about what goes into making sims work from you guys that I had always just taken for granted. Cant forget Haiden and grimey either sharing our ideas with a more hands on approach.

morpwr
30-01-2016, 22:47
I would write stuff if the Stanceworks DLC wasn't out. But it is. I'll go drive instead! :D

Yeah the new track is amazing! Just told the girlfriend I'm playing all night.l She got her movie last night.lol

tennenbaum
30-01-2016, 23:15
Yes jacks work great now. His only problem at this point consoles at least ps4 cant run ffb master at 100 you have to use this to set the overall ffb. That and gain cant be set as high as pc from what I can tell 1.30 is about max to eliminate a lot of clipping on the ps4. On the deadzone issue again he is assuming pc and consoles work exactly the same from what I can tell they don't. I find I need less deadzone this way. Not a huge difference but still less. If he would just listen to someone that has a console and adjust his thinking he would make this alot easier on new users just going to his tweaks as a starting point. They do work very well you just CANNOT set ffb master to 100 or my guess is above the sms default for whatever wheel you are using on consoles. All of us here know what happens when you turn ffb master to 100 on consoles you turn down the very things we want to feel so the wheel isn't super strong. But that's just my opinion. Yeah as it seems our search is coming to a close I will say I'm going to miss all the technical stuff from you,poirq,and skoader. Ive learned so much about what goes into making sims work from you guys that I had always just taken for granted. Cant forget Haiden and grimey either sharing our ideas with a more hands on approach.

Everything you said spot on. I fully agree. Thanks for commenting on my post which came with a grain of salt and (well-meant) irony.

CreamyDischarge
31-01-2016, 00:00
So did anyone figure out CSWv2 settings in ps4?
I find it strange that many are adding SK/SR as those affect the linearity of the curve, they shouldn't be touched unless you are using DRI3?

morpwr
31-01-2016, 00:12
So did anyone figure out CSWv2 settings in ps4?
I find it strange that many are adding SK/SR as those affect the linearity of the curve, they shouldn't be touched unless you are using DRI3?

Pretty sure Haiden has. Go back a few posts he gave his scoop values but believe it or not id( he did too) start over with the default values and his scoops or try jacks settings in the tweaker files. I don't think you will be able to get the gain much higher than 1.30 without a lot of clipping if you try his but it felt really good there.

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 00:31
Me too I figure the same thing you did. They put it there for a reason. Now that we aren't trying to band aid the game with the ffb settings its easy.:D

I keep forgetting to ask you as you have both. How much better is the v2 and is it worth the money?

IMO... Its worth Every $$$ Spent!!! also Fanatec Products have a Great Resale Value... I paid $600.00 for My CSR Elite in 2010... I can Still put it on Ebay and Get $350.00 for it!!! I would Get 1 if your budget allows.

your looking at about $1,200 + or - a few $$$ to get a V2 set up going.. Base, Rim, Pedals but that willblast you the Next 5 to 10 yeasr depending on what New wheel tec comes out.

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 00:38
So did anyone figure out CSWv2 settings in ps4?
I find it strange that many are adding SK/SR as those affect the linearity of the curve, they shouldn't be touched unless you are using DRI3?

I havent had time to figure them out for 8.0 yet but in working on it... 8.0 the RAC is more powerfull so first step if your using your old settings would be to Reduce RAC by 5 then + or - until your feel comes back.

it seems that Fx feeling has been changed for the better also... Im stil balancing it into My Tweek.

CreamyDischarge
31-01-2016, 01:41
Pretty sure Haiden has. Go back a few posts he gave his scoop values but believe it or not id( he did too) start over with the default values and his scoops or try jacks settings in the tweaker files. I don't think you will be able to get the gain much higher than 1.30 without a lot of clipping if you try his but it felt really good there.

Jacks settings (and anyone else's settings that involve adding scoops) are pointless as they are categorically, 100% incorrect, without question.

As scoops are ONLY for those with non linear wheels OR for those who use DRI settings other than DRI0

Prime example:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1224228&viewfull=1#post1224228

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 01:48
So did anyone figure out CSWv2 settings in ps4?
I find it strange that many are adding SK/SR as those affect the linearity of the curve, they shouldn't be touched unless you are using DRI3?

WOW!!! ok so using My Global settings with the stock in car settings the car now Feels exactly Like it did with My Tweek with 6.0 & 7.0!!! i set the in car Master scale to 50, ...SoP Master Scale to 50 and use my regular sop settings SoP lat 10, SoP Diff 100... and the feel is pretty Much 1.1 with what i was using.
I turn all smoothing and damping off in the stock set up.

Even My Lap Times are the same!!!

My Global settings

GM FFB 30 or 35 Not sure which 1 I'm going to settle with.

TF 98

Relative
98
12
90

Scoop
68
12

using a CSW V2 so i remove all Dead zone, Dz removal, smoothing, damping... these settings are very wheel dependent.

CreamyDischarge
31-01-2016, 01:55
WOW!!! ok so using My Global settings with the stock in car settings the car now Feels exactly Like it did with My Tweek with 6.0 & 7.0!!! i set the in car Master scale to 50, ...SoP Master Scale to 50 and use my regular sop settings SoP lat 10, SoP Diff 100... and the feel is pretty Much 1.1 with what i was using.
I turn all smoothing and damping off in the stock set up.

What are your globals?
If you are the only person who DOESNT use scoops, then you are the ONLY person who is doing it right!

You clearly aren't blinded, closed minded or just following the herd!

People need to wake up, blindly adding in settings into a wheel without testing it via wheel checker first on a PC is an fool!

Jacks Settings are only good for jacks wheel! That's a fact, he even states it in the post now (after I gave him a headache about not informing users of that fact)

If you use DRI0 on a CSWv2 NO SCOOPS SHOULD EVER BE CONSIDERED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

So well done G, I'm interested in trying your settings, what's the globals? :D

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 02:19
I like scoops feel... I'm Not chasing the linear wheel feel i like my wheel very Lively and Active.
I never use DRI setting in any game. all you really have to do is set your GM FFB and Go Go Go!!!

morpwr
31-01-2016, 02:19
WOW!!! ok so using My Global settings with the stock in car settings the car now Feels exactly Like it did with My Tweek with 6.0 & 7.0!!! i set the in car Master scale to 50, ...SoP Master Scale to 50 and use my regular sop settings SoP lat 10, SoP Diff 100... and the feel is pretty Much 1.1 with what i was using.
I turn all smoothing and damping off in the stock set up.

Even My Lap Times are the same!!!

My Global settings

GM FFB 30 or 35 Not sure which 1 I'm going to settle with.

TF 98

Relative
98
12
90

Scoop
68
12

using a CSW V2 so i remove all Dead zone, Dz removal, smoothing, damping... these settings are very wheel dependent.

Really nothing to do with this but I just had a thought. If our master ffb was the equivalent of the pc master then he would be 100% wrong telling people to run 100ffb on consoles. It would be interesting to know what the default masters for our wheels are on pc and at what level most run them to see if its similar to were we are. I'm pretty sure at this point that is the case tough.

Haiden
31-01-2016, 02:29
So did anyone figure out CSWv2 settings in ps4?
I find it strange that many are adding SK/SR as those affect the linearity of the curve, they shouldn't be touched unless you are using DRI3?

I have trouble believing the default Scoop settings are the same for every wheel. IMO, you need to play with higher/lower knees and reduction to find what feel best for you. I have a CSW-v2, and since patch 8.0, that's the only global setting I've changed, and now I'm able to run every car with the default in-car settings, I just have to adjust the Master Scale to my strength preferences. I've been trying different cars all day, and since patch 8.0, using the default in-car FFB is really bringing out each car's unique feel in the wheel. There are even a few cars that I was so-so about before, or even kind of disliked, that I'm like driving now.

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 02:34
Really nothing to do with this but I just had a thought. If our master ffb was the equivalent of the pc master then he would be 100% wrong telling people to run 100ffb on consoles. It would be interesting to know what the default masters for our wheels are on pc and at what level most run them to see if its similar to were we are. I'm pretty sure at this point that is the case tough.



He has always been wrong telling people to use GM FFB 100...His thoery was Not using GM FFB would Reduce Dynamic FFB range... I even proved it to him in a video that this was false!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjGomKTwZI

and then i made a video showing that to reduce steering gain Reduced Dynamic FFB range. that dude Never Listens...and people follow him Like Blind sheep!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hnGt3M34g

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 02:43
I have trouble believing the default Scoop settings are the same for every wheel. IMO, you need to play with higher/lower knees and reduction to find what feel best for you. I have a CSW-v2, and since patch 8.0, that's the only global setting I've changed, and now I'm able to run every car with the default in-car settings, I just have to adjust the Master Scale to my strength preferences. I've been trying different cars all day, and since patch 8.0, using the default in-car FFB is really bringing out each car's unique feel in the wheel. There are even a few cars that I was so-so about before, or even kind of disliked, that I'm like driving now.

The Default settings feel Very Good with My Global settings, like i said it feels pretty 1.1 with the tweek i was using!!!
Im Sure they Readjusted ALL the In car settings values... You Can Even take the settings and Reverse them ex:my stock is Masters 50 and Fx,fy ,SoP etc 100...if you reverse it to Masters 100 and Fx,Fy, SoP etc 50 the feel is still the same!!! it was Not Like that before!!

morpwr
31-01-2016, 03:21
He has always been wrong telling people to use GM FFB 100...His thoery was Not using GM FFB would Reduce Dynamic FFB range... I even proved it to him in a video that this was false!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtjGomKTwZI

and then i made a video showing that to reduce steering gain Reduced Dynamic FFB range. that dude Never Listens...and people follow him Like Blind sheep!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hnGt3M34g

Sg absolutely reduces range it obvious in the HUD. At this point I'm saying we solved it regardless of others theories. I can't comment on PC stuff because I won't assume something I cant physically try myself. Ffb master on consoles is the same as pc master which makes sense. Honestly it makes a lot more sense than saying it should be treated differently.

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 03:26
Sg absolutely reduces range it obvious in the HUD. At this point I'm saying we solved it regardless of others theories. I can't comment on PC stuff because I won't assume something I cant physically try myself. Ffb master on consoles is the same as pc master which makes sense. Honestly it makes a lot more sense than saying it should be treated differently.

Look at the Date on those you tube Videos!!! but i was saying the same thing since the summer time...and using the same tweek also.

When SMS Readjusted the settings im sure that the adjustments made had Nothing to do with that Rubbish JS is pumping out to his followers!!!

morpwr
31-01-2016, 04:03
Look at the Date on those you tube Videos!!! but i was saying the same thing since the summer time...and using the same tweek also.

When SMS Readjusted the settings im sure that the adjustments made had Nothing to do with that Rubbish JS is pumping out to his followers!!!

His files actually work really well.Problem is he doesnt know how to apply them to consoles properly. Anybody that at this point thinks turning tf or gain down makes sense to control overall force hasn't read any of this since the beginning. I saw those videos along time ago.

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 04:23
His files actually work really well.Problem is he doesnt know how to apply them to consoles properly. Anybody that at this point thinks turning tf or gain down makes sense to control overall force hasn't read any of this since the beginning. I saw those videos along time ago.

For Me his settings have no feel and what little feel is there feels like Placebo due to his radical changes... I see No need to set DOR or turn any setting over 100.

morpwr
31-01-2016, 04:50
For Me his settings have no feel and what little feel is there feels like Placebo due to his radical changes... I see No need to set DOR or turn any setting over 100.

You are kind of doing the same thing only backwards. But whatever works is OK. The dor I can't say as I don't have that option.lol

BigDad
31-01-2016, 05:02
Hello morpwr I'm curious as to what you would suggest for me on my Fanatec gt2 with js 66% settings ?
I've posted a link to my current setting
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used/page101.
Post 1007 . Any help would be appreciated.
As i think I've lost lap times compared to pre 8.0 .
I have a hard time with other settings I've tried .
Tonight I'm going to try Haidens setting and hopefully something from you !
Thanks .

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 05:22
You are kind of doing the same thing only backwards. But whatever works is OK. The dor I can't say as I don't have that option.lol


Nope... I will just agree to dis agree:rolleyes: i use 1 FFB set up every car every track ...End result is always same good FFB, Road Feel should = Fast clean consistent Lap times as long as that's the end result that's all that matters to each their own:victorious:

Edit: as it is with 8.0 once i set the Global settings, set the in Car Masters to the FFB level that i like 8.0 feels pretty much 1 to 1 with My RA 12 tweek without touching Fx,Fy etc... im just working on setting my wheel weight to how i want it.... seems that all the tweekers are out of Business with 8.0!!! LOL

morpwr
31-01-2016, 05:44
Nope... I will just agree to dis agree:rolleyes: i use 1 FFB set up every car every track ...End result is always same good FFB, Road Feel should = Fast clean consistent Lap times as long as that's the end result that's all that matters to each their own:victorious:

Edit: as it is with 8.0 once i set the Global settings, set the in Car Masters to the FFB level that i like 8.0 feels pretty much 1 to 1 with My RA 12 tweek without touching Fx,Fy etc... im just working on setting my wheel weight to how i want it.... seems that all the tweekers are out of Business with 8.0!!! LOL

That wasn't what I meant. You use high master low in car and yes as long as it works that's all the matters.

morpwr
31-01-2016, 05:52
Hello morpwr I'm curious as to what you would suggest for me on my Fanatec gt2 with js 66% settings ?
I've posted a link to my current setting
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used/page101.
Post 1007 . Any help would be appreciated.
As i think I've lost lap times compared to pre 8.0 .
I have a hard time with other settings I've tried .
Tonight I'm going to try Haidens setting and hopefully something from you !
Thanks .

Actually I'm just using jacks recommended 75 tf sg 120 rag .85 rac 1.50 .28sr .82 sk and start with default ffb for your wheel .Just turn down the game master to get your wheel weight.Your scoops may vary a little but those are easy enough to play with.

BigDad
31-01-2016, 06:04
Thanks mate , will try this tonight .

morpwr
31-01-2016, 06:06
Thanks mate , will try this tonight .

Any questions let me know.

BigDad
31-01-2016, 06:09
sr and sk are scoop reduction and scoop knee? Correct.
So would you suggest pressing triangle and imputing your settings or just adjusting mine to yours?

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 08:37
While the Default FFB Feels Really Good Now... It can Still use a Fine Tune to get it spot on for Me... I just dont feel like Tweeking because It will have to be a Total Re-Tweek they changed alot of Stuff...just to Fine Tune it... and we Still have No official word about whats been Changed

gotdirt410sprintcar
31-01-2016, 11:50
Its just the tire model change everything else is the same and they may have made adjustment to R'A' S but that was not on the notes. Thrustmaster had a big change but i Don't know i think everything is the same it will feel different with a new tire model

morpwr
31-01-2016, 15:10
sr and sk are scoop reduction and scoop knee? Correct.
So would you suggest pressing triangle and imputing your settings or just adjusting mine to yours?

Yes and I don't think it really matters unless you get a weird issue. Not like that ever happens.:p

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 18:18
Hmmm... So it appears the high in car Masters VS the Low in car Masters Debate is No More!!! I can Take My same Exact settings and reverse them

Masters 50--VS--> 100
Fx 56.01 --------> 6.01
Fy 80.00 -------->30.00
Fz 100.01 ------->50.01
Mz 100 .01 ------>50.01

SoP Scale --50--->100
SoP Lat 10.0----->10.0
SoP Dif 100.00--->50.0

the #'s are reversed but the FFB feels the same... This was Not always the case.

Notable difference in Both cases the "Mz" Feels Much smoother:yes:


its a Love hate thing with Pcars!!! Every time you get your set up straight SMS changes something!!! Enough with that i have not completed a career series race yet because of this!!!

Roger Prynne
31-01-2016, 19:04
While the Default FFB Feels Really Good Now... It can Still use a Fine Tune to get it spot on for Me... I just dont feel like Tweeking because It will have to be a Total Re-Tweek they changed alot of Stuff...just to Fine Tune it... and we Still have No official word about whats been Changed

The only thing that has been changed is the way the tyres heat up, cool down and wear, making the rubber act differently than before, so in turn making the FFB feel different (better in fact)

GrimeyDog
31-01-2016, 19:58
The only thing that has been changed is the way the tyres heat up, cool down and wear, making the rubber act differently than before, so in turn making the FFB feel different (better in fact)

The FFB feels very different, Not in a bad or better way... its just different... the Fy,Fx, etc seem to have different strength values ex 30 Fx does not seem to = what 30 Fx was with 6 and 7.0.

With 8.0 Some settings have definitely Been turned up to put out more power!!! things are Not the same or subtle changes because using the same settings my wheel is running 15 degrees hotter than the Norm as compared to 6 and 7.0... many people are noting a FFB power increase with 8.0 and I've seen a few post about FFB fade since 8.0... The wheels are running Hotter because of the increased FFB output that's whats causing the FFB Fade!!!

i grow weary of always tweeking!!! I had my settings right for Me... and they change everything up AGAIN and just leave us back at square 1 shooting in the dark to figure it out Blind folded...it was a fun challenge to begin with but Now its just Old BS!!! SMS Needs to come clean and put their cards on the table about whats going on and whats changed.

tennenbaum
31-01-2016, 22:37
Quote Originally Posted by Roger Prynne View Post
The only thing that has been changed is the way the tyres heat up, cool down and wear, making the rubber act differently than before, so in turn making the FFB feel different (better in fact)


The FFB feels very different, Not in a bad or better way... its just different... the Fy,Fx, etc seem to have different strength values ex 30 Fx does not seem to = what 30 Fx was with 6 and 7.0.

With 8.0 Some settings have definitely Been turned up to put out more power!!! things are Not the same or subtle changes because using the same settings my wheel is running 15 degrees hotter than the Norm as compared to 6 and 7.0... many people are noting a FFB power increase with 8.0 and I've seen a few post about FFB fade since 8.0... The wheels are running Hotter because of the increased FFB output that's whats causing the FFB Fade!!!

i grow weary of always tweeking!!! I had my settings right for Me... and they change everything up AGAIN and just leave us back at square 1 shooting in the dark to figure it out Blind folded...it was a fun challenge to begin with but Now its just Old BS!!! SMS Needs to come clean and put their cards on the table about whats going on and whats changed.

I would just like to hear it again: "Nothing got changed, therefore NO CHANGES AT ALL WITH FFB (except soft lock with Thrustmaster wheels), but we CHANGED TIRE MODEL". If that's confirmed, well, then i take that as the truth and acknowledge that changes of the tire model of course result in a different FFB feel even if nothing in the FFB system got changed. Even more, it's logical and makes sense that the FFB feeling changes. THOUGH if they changed FFB as well, then it's matter of fairness to tell us, everything else would be disrespectful... considering how much efforts were made here to shed some light...

poirqc
31-01-2016, 22:57
I would just like to hear it again: "Nothing got changed, therefore NO CHANGES AT ALL WITH FFB (except soft lock with Thrustmaster wheels), but we CHANGED TIRE MODEL". If that's confirmed, well, then i take that as the truth and acknowledge that changes of the tire model of course result in a different FFB feel even if nothing in the FFB system got changed. Even more, it's logical and makes sense that the FFB feeling changes. THOUGH if they changed FFB as well, then it's matter of fairness to tell us, everything else would be disrespectful... considering how much efforts were made here to shed some light...

The changes to the tire model are in the patch notes (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44179-Project-CARS-PS4-Patch-8-0-Release-Notes). It doesn't say much, but it's there. Maybe a search the Tire model thread, with blue post, would yeild some details?

PureMalt77
31-01-2016, 22:59
The changes to the tire model are in the patch notes (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?44179-Project-CARS-PS4-Patch-8-0-Release-Notes). It doesn't say much, but it's there. Maybe a search the Tire model thread, with blue post, would yeild some details?
Which makes me think: why no Leader Boards reset after such a change?

poirqc
31-01-2016, 23:07
Which makes me think: why no Leader Boards reset after such a change?

Indeed, but at the same time, the driving got better. We should be able to do better times! :)

morpwr
01-02-2016, 01:10
I would just like to hear it again: "Nothing got changed, therefore NO CHANGES AT ALL WITH FFB (except soft lock with Thrustmaster wheels), but we CHANGED TIRE MODEL". If that's confirmed, well, then i take that as the truth and acknowledge that changes of the tire model of course result in a different FFB feel even if nothing in the FFB system got changed. Even more, it's logical and makes sense that the FFB feeling changes. THOUGH if they changed FFB as well, then it's matter of fairness to tell us, everything else would be disrespectful... considering how much efforts were made here to shed some light...

I'm not sure if id buy it. I tried the fa today just for s ts and giggles as its always been a problem car. With jacks classic settings its perfect no high speed oscillation at all. But with me saying that I still think a lot of the problems that are blamed on the game are wheel related issues. I'm still learning but its got soooo much easier since patch 8. If only guys would stop running 100 ffb master.lol I did find the reasoning behind jacks 75 tf. If you try 100 tf and whatever for sg you can definitely see the weird looking waveforms. The ones with the rough tops on them.When you use 75tf and raise sg it doesnt happen. The waveforms are much cleaner. Still learning.... But I'm still standing by we shouldn't be running higher than 75ffb.

morpwr
01-02-2016, 01:22
Indeed, but at the same time, the driving got better. We should be able to do better times! :)

I'm not sure about that. Someone else said the same thing last night. Maybe grimey can chime in here. From what I can tell unless its just me its about .4-.5seconds slower.

poirqc
01-02-2016, 01:55
I'm not sure about that. Someone else said the same thing last night. Maybe grimey can chime in here. From what I can tell unless its just me its about .4-.5seconds slower.

RuF CTR @ Oulton Park Foster: 1:00:727 (http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=2273942801&vehicle=2017392050) I took me about 7-8 laps.

I think my last time was 1:00:9xx on 7.0. I must said that i was using a custom globals with Jack #7. With my new time, i'm running close to stock globals and stock Car FFB.

poirqc
01-02-2016, 02:05
Disclaimer:
After double checking some stuff below, don't take anything there as exact science. In fact, most of that is probably jibberish. But it took me a while to write, and while not exact, i'm still posting because it might gives idea to other people. If it can help. Why not. :)(i couldn't just delete it)

TL;DR: Skip this and go run on Bannochbrae!


Well, i was too tired to drive so i'll write. I don't even need to fall to hurt myself when i ski nowaday!

I'll go step by step, easier for me to think. Keep in mind that this isn't the absolute truth, it's only my PoV. I won't cover every possible combo, there's a 1000 way to suit your needs.

Hardware
All wheels have a FFB deadzone and a slope of forces to work with. Some wheels output their maximum torque stronger than others. Some can move quickly and strongly. Some less so. I won't talk about clipping here because this is the easiest thing to deal with. I'll take for granted that it's the first step that everybody can deal with. I like to slip it in 3 categories:

Deadzone:Through their hardware design, wheels wont move when the FFB signal is below a given threshold. Thankfully, pCars got lots of software tool to go around that. It's alot better than just crancking the drivers force like it was done before. There's lots of ways to do it actually. TF, DRR, RAs, SC. All those tools can get the job done. Some better than the others, but they can do it.

Slope: This part is the ingredient of the cake. You have to understand what you'll put in the cake before baking it. You'll have to bake differently based on what ingredient you put. I'll try to talk about pCars tool more precisely after the hardware part. Forget about the food analogy, there's also how fast a wheel can oscillate(the wheel operating frequency)...

Max torque: I think lots of differents opinions about the subject brought their plus to the table. Here it goes: Your wheel is just strong enough or too strong. You deal with those with 2 tools. Steering Gain and Controller FFB. On the PC version, the Windows drivers also comes into play.
Strong enough is easy to deal with. You just put everthing to 100% and call it a day.

Too strong is a bit more touchy. I'll start with Steering Gain. This always works the same on all platforms. It works at an "input" level where we're still in the software chain. From my PoV, it should only be used to fine tune an already working recipe. On the PC, the hardware behavior of a wheel if configured through the driver's control panel. This means that, indeed, the controller FFB is "useless" in pCars. We have something else to drive the wheel. On consoles, the controller FFB slideris the control panel(Do only Fanatecs have build-in memory to save PCs settings?). On PCs, the strenght is set at the last step of the chain before going into the wheel. It make sense to do the same on consoles.

This is where tradeoffs comes. On both platforms, as soon as you lower the wheel max torque, it means more signal will be into the FFB deadzone. For low deadzone wheel, it's probably not a problem. It may also change the wheel slope of forces. But if the wheel's too strong, well, you're kind of forced to lower the max torque.

The other thing that comes into play is how you hold the wheel. If you like to have a light grip, a linear settings can work fairly well. If you want to wreste a bit more, a non linear may suits you better. Witch leads to the software side of things...


Software(Listed as they appear in game)

Linear
This is when you don't need to use anti-clipping mechanism. Ex: Low TF / Car FFB paired with Deadzones and Scoops, with NO RAs and SC. However the way you throw the car, the signal wont clip. This is linear.
VS
Non-Linear
As soon as the TF / Car FFB combo start to clip under normal driving race circumstances, RAC < 1 or SC is needed. This give a non-linear FFB, the more you boost the incoming forces, the more they'll get compressed, the more non-linear it'll be.

This is where Wheelcheck / FCM comes short. I'm in no way bashing those tools. They were programmed by knowledgeable guys! They worked their ass off and greatly contributed to the community. I'll never praise them enough! :D They give great data when you calibrate your FFB in a linear way. You have to go a bit blind, by hands when mixing RAs and SC in the FFB signal. I'll talk about Scoop again later.

Car FFB
The only thing i'll say here is that it's important to take those into consideration before tuning the globals parameters. I think it's important to know if you're going to use FxyzMz alone or add SoP with the front wheels. I'll give some examples in the tools explanations.

TF
Low values(non clipping). This is a linear signal. At that point, Wheelcheck / FCM is handy to adapt the signal to the hardware shortcomings.
Mid value. As you move TF up, the signal get out of the FFB deadzone faster. This means less DRR & DRF is needed. At that point, low torque signal could also be boosted with Soft Clipping.
High value. The more TF gets cranked, the less anti-deadzone mechanism needs to be used.

Per wheel movement and Smoothing
Those ones are pretty simple. You set PWM to taste, as long as the front wheels of the car don't accelerate(or slow down) against the movement you're doing. Smoothing just deals with rattling.

Deadzones
We all like to feel every crack of the road. It's like a cherry on a sunday. But at some point, it's important to use the least possible to cover the TDC deadzone. When using DRR, i found that using a DRF that is about 5.5 times less than DRR works well. With a straight linear setup, picking the values from the calculators right away is ok. When other means of boosting the lows signals(high TF, SC, etc...), a smaller value than the calculator is probably a good choise(DRF based on DRR).

Linkage
I gotta confess that i never played with it. I thought, i have my arms, i don't need to simulate them. :) Maybe it makes sense when using a control pad, i don't know.

Relatives Adjusts
I don't remember who said it, but this tool is used to spice the FFB. It can also be used as an anti-cliping tool. With that said, the FFB works quite well without it. I think i understand why they enabled RAs instead of SC by default, as there's only FxyzMz enabled in cars. This means that by itself, the forces going to the steering wheel don't really happend over time. This is where RAB kicks in. The higher it is, the longer the torque deltas takes to happend. This give some kind of info about weight transfert of the car.

In the case below, the higher TF is, the faster RAs will do their tricks.

Signal shaping only, without SC:
RaG attenuate, regulate or boost a torque delta. The higher this value is, against RaC, the faster the wheel needs to respond to it. At some point, the wheel won't keep up and it'll just rattle/vibrate instead of actually moving.
RaB as we know is a time value, the more i mess with it, the more i go back to 0.10. I thought about a theory, but test didn't prove it...
RaC is "disabled" when sent at 2.0. The signal is always below, so it never compress anything.

Signal shaping & compression, without SC:
RaG and RaB works pretty much the same.
RaC could be viewed as the nominal weight of the steering wheel under load. The closer it is to 1 , the less room the signal has to oscillate around that weight. When running with FxyzMz only, the weight of the steering wheel will go up to max slip angle.

Signal shaping & compression, with SC(Like bManics):
This case mimic the signal shaping only, there's no need to compress the signal when SC will deal with that afterwards. So RaC to 2.

Back to RAB, as this value moves up, SoP seems to be less desirable. Most of the time, when you trow a car in a curve. The tail will wander more than the front. It also moves more slowly than the steering rack. I'm not sure how to say it. It's like SoP work in a similar way than RaB. This means that when using SoP, a low RaB value is probably better. Than way, you don't get twice the "bleed force".

Scoops
There's lots of ways of using SK and SR. I think the worst thing about it would be an SR that is too agressive. It could send more stuff into the FFB deadzone. The default Scoops are a good reference because SR is fairly low. When in doubt, start back to those values. Scoops could help when there's lots of compression via RaC or SC. This will "stretch" the compressed part.

Soft Clipping
I'll just link skoader (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1212565&viewfull=1#post1212565) and tennenbaum's (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1213005&viewfull=1#post1213005) posts.

What i may add is that on SoP heavy setup, SC may be more useful than RAs. SoP is already sending some kind of "slow snake weight into the steering", there's no need to add some bleed through RAs. When i was using Jack's Classic, witch uses SoP Diff, i actually like SC better than RAs. I'm not saying RAs, SC and SoP can't be used together, they're just harder to balance together.

Steering Gain and Master FFB
I think Steering Gain works the same on every platform. As the developpers said, when they exposed this tool, is that values above 1 naturaly leads to clipping. From my PoV, this tool should be used to reach the last mini space of signal you want to reach when the FFB recipe is done. On the PC, there's no point in lowering FFB strengh with SG because we can do it in the Windows drivers. On consoles, it's done through the controller FFB slider.

I did a small test a while ago (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1181984&viewfull=1#post1181984), to simulate what i wrote above. Here's my results:

I tried lowering the FFB in the following manners:

Everything else the same but Steering Gain at 0,85 / Master FFB 100% / Drivers 100%: Good
Everything else the same but Steering Gain at 1,00 / Master FFB 85% / Drivers 100%: Good, felt a little loose at TDC
Everything else the same but Steering Gain at 1,00 / Master FFB 100% / Drivers 85%: Good, this one felt a tad more natural, in line with the reference.


I must say that those 3 recipes gave pretty similar results. So close that it may not matter witch route is taken. With that said. As soon as someone lowers the MAX FFB, it's probably a good thing to revisit Deadzones and Scoops. Given someone wants to keep the same balance of FFB.

I can say those 3 config gave a similar feeling, albeit a bit weaker overall, than my reference setup(Those 3 settings @ 100%).

The point here, is that i agree with the consoles guys. Lowering the strenght of a wheel can be done through the Master FFB. It's the last step of the chain, just like the wheels control panel on the PC.


The more i write, the less i think a cheat sheet it possible. You have to look at the whole globals to cure a given problem.

GrimeyDog
01-02-2016, 07:28
I'm not sure if id buy it. I tried the fa today just for s ts and giggles as its always been a problem car. With jacks classic settings its perfect no high speed oscillation at all. But with me saying that I still think a lot of the problems that are blamed on the game are wheel related issues. I'm still learning but its got soooo much easier since patch 8. If only guys would stop running 100 ffb master.lol I did find the reasoning behind jacks 75 tf. If you try 100 tf and whatever for sg you can definitely see the weird looking waveforms. The ones with the rough tops on them.When you use 75tf and raise sg it doesnt happen. The waveforms are much cleaner. Still learning.... But I'm still standing by we shouldn't be running higher than 75ffb.

Every 1 likes what they like... I like 100 FFB Masters and you like JS Settings... BTW its Never been Confirmed by any 1 from SMS that JS FFB was The Correct tuning Method... So with that said... Ive been using Default FFB... Feels ok but its Bland, the wheel is Heavy and Less lively... FFB is also a matter of physical coditioning when FFB is Too weak i oversteer constantly...maybe you.need weaker FFB because thats what you can handle...but in any event i grow weary of all the Testing tweeking... Its every Dam Month!!! they Changing FFB FOH!!! Enough already... I just want to Race!!! Its almost 1 year and ive Never Done a Complete Career Race because they always Changing stuff around and i always have to delete to get it back to the Norm.... Where is the Refund Line??? This Major Change Stuff with Little or No detail is BS... whats the Reward for alk of this???

BigDad
01-02-2016, 08:56
PCars 2 ffb will be great thanks to you guys .lol.
Isn't that reward enough .lol.?
In the credits they will have ffb testers names . LOL.

morpwr
01-02-2016, 12:01
Every 1 likes what they like... I like 100 FFB Masters and you like JS Settings... BTW its Never been Confirmed by any 1 from SMS that JS FFB was The Correct tuning Method... So with that said... Ive been using Default FFB... Feels ok but its Bland, the wheel is Heavy and Less lively... FFB is also a matter of physical coditioning when FFB is Too weak i oversteer constantly...maybe you.need weaker FFB because thats what you can handle...but in any event i grow weary of all the Testing tweeking... Its every Dam Month!!! they Changing FFB FOH!!! Enough already... I just want to Race!!! Its almost 1 year and ive Never Done a Complete Career Race because they always Changing stuff around and i always have to delete to get it back to the Norm.... Where is the Refund Line??? This Major Change Stuff with Little or No detail is BS... whats the Reward for alk of this???

You misunderstood me grimey. 100 at the wheel. I don't really see an issue either way with the actual car ffb. It winds up roughly the same its just a matter of where you raise or lower the forces and I know his aren't confirmed by anyone but he does have some good ideas on how this works.Remember to stay open minded that's why your forum works.lol But yes I totally agree I would have appreciated knowing the thrustmaster wheels were screwed up and they knew it!!! Basically everything I did for the last 7 months was a band aid. But I did finally spend all weekend just running races.:D Maybe ill actually start a career now.:p Oh yeah lowering the rac and raising rag seems to work really well.I tried that along time ago but it didn't work well before.
You get a gold star lol

Massmutant87
01-02-2016, 12:12
T300rs wheel FFB fade issue after update to 8.00 version

could some1 help me`? i drove with patch 7.0 patch 85 ffb , 100 tf and 30-40 at car setting but now its inpossible the car feels shit after 5 mins of driving ....
i need good settings with a hard ffb to drive :p

PureMalt77
01-02-2016, 13:55
85FFB + 100TF looks too strong for me even for 7.0!

These are my only changes from default setup (T300RS + T3PA-Pro):

Set ALL steering + pedal dead-zones to 0 (I think the stock pedals do need some dead-zone).
Master FFB = 70

Under controller's FFB Settings:

Tire Force = 90
DRR: 0,14
DRF: almost 0,00 (go all to the left, 5 clicks to the right).
Scoop Knee: 0,69
Scoop Reduction: 0,25
Menu Spring: 0,25

I use standard in car FFB, don't like any of the Jack Spades stuff, and don't like using SoP.
I just change the Master Scale of a specific car when I feel is too week or too strong, and keep the 100/100/100/100, but that's just how I like more.

Haiden
01-02-2016, 16:27
T300rs wheel FFB fade issue after update to 8.00 version

could some1 help me`? i drove with patch 7.0 patch 85 ffb , 100 tf and 30-40 at car setting but now its inpossible the car feels shit after 5 mins of driving ....
i need good settings with a hard ffb to drive :p

Similar to PureMalt, since 8.0, I only make minimal changes to the globals, and only adjust the Master Scale in-car.

Globals:
Force Feedback = 50 (default for CSW-v2)
Tire Force = 100 (default)

Scoop Knee = 0.80
Scoop Reduction = 0.26

In-Car:
Master Scale = 40-44
SoP Scale = Same as Master Scale when SoP values are used

All other in-car scales, including Smoothing, I leave at default.

Since patch 8.0, the above has been working with every single car I've tried and feels great. I've tested about 70% of the garage, so far.

Fight-Test
01-02-2016, 17:08
T300rs wheel FFB fade issue after update to 8.00 version

could some1 help me`? i drove with patch 7.0 patch 85 ffb , 100 tf and 30-40 at car setting but now its inpossible the car feels shit after 5 mins of driving ....
i need good settings with a hard ffb to drive :p

Hmmm, interesting. I understand your need for alot feel I the wheel but would lower your ffb to at max 75. Keep ur other settings the same. Test with a gt3 or another car that starts with warm tires so you u get max force from the start of run(cold tires have weaker forces). See how it feels after a few laps. If it still cuts off listen for your fan to make sure it's working in the wheel.

Other than that make sure your up to date on firmware for wheel. I think you might be running a little to strong because the forces seem stronger in this Patch and I turned down in car master by 4 after patch 8 and run 75 ffb. U might just be going over the threshold of strength the wheel can handle. I did drive about three hours yesterday with no issues.

PureMalt77
01-02-2016, 19:37
I went from TF=95 and FB=75 to 90/70 after patch 8.0.
But can someone tell me about Steering Gain? Which volume knob is actually the ideal to attenuate the forces?

SGETI
01-02-2016, 20:13
FFB and cooling. here is a link from thrustmaster showing how to manually keep fan turned on. It says

Automatic” cooling mode:

When you are using the wheel in a game, the cooling fan starts up when the wheel has reached a certain temperature.
.
(= after a few minutes of gameplay, depending on the strength of the Force Feedback effects used.


http://ts.thrustmaster.com/faqs/eng/thr_eng_00156.pdf

Haiden
01-02-2016, 20:49
I went from TF=95 and FB=75 to 90/70 after patch 8.0.
But can someone tell me about Steering Gain? Which volume knob is actually the ideal to attenuate the forces?

Don't know about the ideal way, but IMO TF, FF, and RAG/C are the best settings to use. Steering Gain can work, but before I switched to the CSW-v2, I was using the T300 and did my Extremes test on Steering Gain--trying it high, and then low--the lower setting caused the wheel to become sluggish, it felt like I was understeering all the time, or like the steering ratio was too low. I admit, the closer SG was to 1.00, the less I could feel the sluggishness (>=0.95 I couldn't actually feel it at all), but for that reason--knowing that it did--I chose not to mess with SG, and to use one of the other sliders for strength control. Test it yourself. Lower it to like 0.60 and see how it affects cornering. Doesn't surprised me that it's called "Steering" gain.

GrimeyDog
01-02-2016, 21:03
I went from TF=95 and FB=75 to 90/70 after patch 8.0.
But can someone tell me about Steering Gain? Which volume knob is actually the ideal to attenuate the forces?

Reduce the RAC to reduce the FFB power out put of all Forces before the Steering Gain...Do Not Reduce Steering Gain as that will cause you to lose Full Dynamic Range of FFB.

morpwr
01-02-2016, 21:07
Don't know about the ideal way, but IMO TF, FF, and RAG/C are the best settings to use. Steering Gain can work, but before I switched to the CSW-v2, I was using the T300 and did my Extremes test on Steering Gain--trying it high, and then low--the lower setting caused the wheel to become sluggish, it felt like I was understeering all the time, or like the steering ratio was too low. I admit, the closer SG was to 1.00, the less I could feel the sluggishness (>=0.95 I could actually feel it at all), but for that reason--knowing that it did--I chose not to mess with SG, and to use one of the other sliders for strength control. Test it yourself. Lower it to like 0.60 and see how it affects cornering. Doesn't surprised me that it's called "Steering" gain.

I was playing with that the other night trying to figure out how jack came to the conclusion that 75tf and 1.30ish gain is better. If you watch the hud with tf100 and gain 1.0 you get lots of the funny looking waveforms with the rough tops. Basically clipped. If you lower tf and raise gain it goes away. Honestly doesn't feel a lot different but that's what I found. If you go that route I couldn't get much higher than 1.21 without noticing clipping. Your results may vary depending on what your using for car ffb settings.

GrimeyDog
01-02-2016, 21:56
You misunderstood me grimey. 100 at the wheel. I don't really see an issue either way with the actual car ffb. It winds up roughly the same its just a matter of where you raise or lower the forces and I know his aren't confirmed by anyone but he does have some good ideas on how this works.Remember to stay open minded that's why your forum works.lol But yes I totally agree I would have appreciated knowing the thrustmaster wheels were screwed up and they knew it!!! Basically everything I did for the last 7 months was a band aid. But I did finally spend all weekend just running races.:D Maybe ill actually start a career now.:p Oh yeah lowering the rac and raising rag seems to work really well.I tried that along time ago but it didn't work well before.
You get a gold star lol

SMS Currently has Me Pissed off... While the Defaul FFB Feels ok... Infact i can still Maintain My same Normal Lap times using it... I cant Really get used to the Feel... it Feels Heavy and the FFB is Not as Sharp or Crisp as i like it... Bottom Line is im getting tierd of Digging out Good FFB Feel just to Have them Change the FFB once im Good and Settled with a FFB Feel i Like...I Played F1 2015 last Night and it was sooo Refreshing to just jump in Drive without all the tweekin FFB BS... it was a fun Challenge but its getting old and Lame with No Rewards!!!

Plus i Have a Really Bad Cold/Flu Right Now... I just spent 25min on the Dr Check in... 5min with the Dr....15min waiting for a Dr's Note 15min waiting for prescriptions my best guess is im just a tad bit Cranky right now:mad:

morpwr
01-02-2016, 22:37
SMS Currently has Me Pissed off... While the Defaul FFB Feels ok... Infact i can still Maintain My same Normal Lap times using it... I cant Really get used to the Feel... it Feels Heavy and the FFB is Not as Sharp or Crisp as i like it... Bottom Line is im getting tierd of Digging out Good FFB Feel just to Have them Change the FFB once im Good and Settled with a FFB Feel i Like...I Played F1 2015 last Night and it was sooo Refreshing to just jump in Drive without all the tweekin FFB BS... it was a fun Challenge but its getting old and Lame with No Rewards!!!

Plus i Have a Really Bad Cold/Flu Right Now... I just spent 25min on the Dr Check in... 5min with the Dr....15min waiting for a Dr's Note 15min waiting for prescriptions my best guess is im just a tad bit Cranky right now:mad:

That sucks. That was going around here it took forever to go away.Hope you feel better but maybe it will slow you down so we can keep up.:p

Gamer82678
01-02-2016, 22:56
Trying to share latest FFB 2.03 Calculator linearity calculation for my Thrustmaster T300 RS.

Just chill GrimeyDog and take care of your health.

I've got Project Cars paused right now in a race at Nordschleife that is 2 hours long that has been kicking me in my behind in career mode.

I come here to browse this forum because you guys teach me how to play the game and are much more advanced than I am.

I'm just getting to an intermediate level at this time.

I agree the force feedback does feel stronger in the 8.0 update. At this time have dealt with it by reducing Tire Force but, it still feels a little different with the torque reduced by reducing Tire Force in some ways I kinda like it.

Don't let yourself get like those folks in that 10 Angry Gamers vid on YouTube GrimeyDog !

We will and shall find our sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat FFB again for our steering wheels !

Will be tweakin' with some system global parameters after I finish this race.

Haiden
01-02-2016, 23:04
But I did finally spend all weekend just running races.:D Maybe ill actually start a career now.:p

Same here. It was pretty awesome. Every single car I hopped was: Set Master Scale to 44, and then click "Drive". Tried so many cars on that new DLC track. I love it.

GrimeyDog
01-02-2016, 23:28
That sucks. That was going around here it took forever to go away.Hope you feel better but maybe it will slow you down so we can keep up.:p

Gdog slow down... never;)... Now i just have to adapt to the new tire Model AGAIN... the thing is that using the Default or My regular settings the wheel runs 15* degrees Hotter than the Norm with 6.0 & 7.0 i have my good feel back but it involved turning down the RAC to reduce the FFB forces at the source...I'm currently testing monitoring the wheel temp to make sure that 8.0 is stable as far as wheel over heating issues...BTW which we see people posting is already happening:mad:... But SMS claims that only the Tire Model was adjusted:confused:

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 00:45
New Toy for the man kave!!!he day is Getting better!!!

Warren1571
02-02-2016, 01:31
New Toy for the man kave!!!he day is Getting better!!!

Nice work!!! - looks like a premium piece of kit!

One day soon I want to upgrade to Fanatec - seeing that stuff makes me drool

morpwr
02-02-2016, 01:46
Gdog slow down... never;)... Now i just have to adapt to the new tire Model AGAIN... the thing is that using the Default or My regular settings the wheel runs 15* degrees Hotter than the Norm with 6.0 & 7.0 i have my good feel back but it involved turning down the RAC to reduce the FFB forces at the source...I'm currently testing monitoring the wheel temp to make sure that 8.0 is stable as far as wheel over heating issues...BTW which we see people posting is already happening:mad:... But SMS claims that only the Tire Model was adjusted:confused:

Well I can answer if you can run the same times. Yes you can. Had potential for a 1.07 if I could just stop overdriving the corners. It was pretty much a total revamp for the t300 so not a huge deal at this point with whatever sms changed. Most of the guys having heating issues are running high master ffb settings above the defaults. Eventually they will catch on or maybe not.lol The 15 degrees hotter really isn't hot for your wheel though is it?

morpwr
02-02-2016, 01:48
New Toy for the man kave!!!he day is Getting better!!!

That stuff looks really nice. You can see the quality in the picture.

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 02:17
Well I can answer if you can run the same times. Yes you can. Had potential for a 1.07 if I could just stop overdriving the corners. It was pretty much a total revamp for the t300 so not a huge deal at this point with whatever sms changed. Most of the guys having heating issues are running high master ffb settings above the defaults. Eventually they will catch on or maybe not.lol The 15 degrees hotter really isn't hot for your wheel though is it?

The New Default set up is Sooo close to My FFB Tweek feel That's why i couldn't fine tune it!!! everything i touched just messes it up because its that close to my RA12 FFB Tweek!!! to Make it exactly as my RA12 Tweek i just flip the masters and the in car FFB settings value.. so that's Master scale 100 and in car 50 ,SoP scale 100 , 10 ,50.... and the feel is almost 1.1 with what i was using!!!
Edit i did Lower the RAC to Reduce the Total power of the FFB at the Source before the steering gain... That pretty much stops the Heat issue So far.



That stuff looks really nice. You can see the quality in the picture.

I haven't used it yet it just came today... But its Heavy and solid feeling... feels like Good quality... Now i have to decide what racing Rig i want any suggestions??? I was looking at the RS1 and the Obutto Revolution.

RSEAT North America Official Store - The ultimate cockpits (http://rseatamerica.com/)

Obutto Gaming Cockpits - Obutto R3Volution Gaming Cockpit - Main Performance PC (http://www.mainperformancepc.com/categories/gaming-sim-cockpits/obutto-r3volution-gaming-cockpit/?sort=pricedesc)

morpwr
02-02-2016, 03:07
The New Default set up is Sooo close to My FFB Tweek feel That's why i couldn't fine tune it!!! everything i touched just messes it up because its that close to my RA12 FFB Tweek!!! to Make it exactly as my RA12 Tweek i just flip the masters and the in car FFB settings value.. so that's Master scale 100 and in car 50 ,SoP scale 100 , 10 ,50.... and the feel is almost 1.1 with what i was using!!!
Edit i did Lower the RAC to Reduce the Total power of the FFB at the Source before the steering gain... That pretty much stops the Heat issue So far


I haven't used it yet it just came today... But its Heavy and solid feeling... feels like Good quality... Now i have to decide what racing Rig i want any suggestions??? I was looking at the RS1 and the Obutto Revolution.

RSEAT North America Official Store - The ultimate cockpits (http://rseatamerica.com/)

Obutto Gaming Cockpits - Obutto R3Volution Gaming Cockpit - Main Performance PC (http://www.mainperformancepc.com/categories/gaming-sim-cockpits/obutto-r3volution-gaming-cockpit/?sort=pricedesc)

I really like my gt omega that replaced my well worn playseat. No center post and its really stable. Seat is comfortable and the positions for the reclining are spaced well. Id definitely buy one again. If only we lived in Europe it comes with a cup holder.lol

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 03:56
Back on pace!!! Default FFB and stock car set up... Watkins Short Im running Low 1:07.3xx and even a FEW 1:06.8xx after i burn some fuel off!!! i always run 10x laps of fuel to start... Laguna seca i get 1:24.5xx easy and when i push i can get 1:23.7xx. getting back on Track.

Default FFB Feels 1 to 1 with what i was using its just a tad bit toned down and smoother... I think i like it... that extra smoothness is going to get faster laps times.

Now whats important is people Need to
1) Lower the RAC to lower the Total FFB strength at the source before the steering gain.
2) Set GM FFB for final at the wheel power level

These 2 settings are very important to refine overall FFB Power and feel and to Avoid wheel over heating issues...Remember when you feed your wheel too much FFB the residual unused FFB current is grounded out and released as excess Heat!!! which is what is causing The FFB fade issue many are having since 8.0 update.

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 05:12
That sucks. That was going around here it took forever to go away.Hope you feel better but maybe it will slow you down so we can keep up.:p

I didn't want the FA people to feel left out... So tonight i got outta my Gt3 Ruf and left something on Watkins short for you to have fun chasing

yes almost forgot i Left a Prototype time for you to have fun with also... that one has been there a few days though... 00:56.663 that 1 gut me 16th:o

SGETI
02-02-2016, 05:16
Looking for a rig, here is a list of over 75 rigs. Some are cheap and some you need to win the lottery to purchase. I have an Obutto and could not be happier, Solid rig with a comfortable adjustable seat. Easy to find the perfect driving position. I drove from Cape Cod to New Jersey just to buy it. 5 hours down, 10 min loading, 5 hours right back. Would do it again. I have since make a custom desk top and side rail shelf. Yes, it does have a cup holder. If I could have changed anything it would have been to buy it sooner. You have a great looking shifter there, Enjoy the eye candy.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/wheel-stands-racing-rigs-cockpits-pedals-wheels-master-list.239878/

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 06:18
I've been looking... i even saw this same list last night seems like this is going to be expensive because i dont like the rigs with the bar in the middle so it always comes back to the 2x choices... The RS1 or the Obutto... the Obutto comes with more moniter stands shifter mounts ETC its priced cheaper but dude to higher shipping cost they both come out to the same total $$$ end figure... The obutto will Not be in stock until end of the month....Hmmmm im going to keep watching them with my finger on the buy button maybe i will luck out and catch a sale... seems i cant get it away from the 1K mark for a good set up... i want to buy 1 time and buy right i don't want to buy it again for Ever...LOL... reports say the Obutto is built like a tank!!!

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 06:45
Ok i get it Now!!! the In car FFB settings are sooo good now:eagerness: there is nothing in Car that needs to be adjusted!!! but we can still shape our FFB feel through the relative and scoop settings:yes: uuuugh why didn't any of you try to tell me this before:o

That's where i been messing up there is no More Need to tweek the in car settings anymore!!! i just didn't trust SMS that the stock FFB would be good so i kept trying to change it to my settings that IMO were pretty Good and what i was used to... but every change to The stock FFB no matter how small or a total make over just messed the FFB feel up... the stock FFB Is really good now!!! I just have to re work my global settings.

Edit: Ok Now I'm Happy;) i Reworked my global settings and the feel is Really Good:yes::yes::yes:
i have the same power and feel but smoother than My RA12 tweek:cool: really Nice... so nice the Gt3 Ruf running 1:06.7xx on Watkins short a few times tonight!!!

But IMO most importantly I've been just driving laps on different tracks, must have done 100 or more laps and checking the wheel temp... some where between 10 to 20 laps i would check the wheel temp and with room temp 75*F the wheel never Got hotter than 85* to 90*F ...and the FFB is very strong!!!
The right RAC and GM FFB is the key to managing wheel performance and Temp

PureMalt77
02-02-2016, 08:59
Ok i get it Now!!! the In car FFB settings are sooo good now:eagerness: there is nothing in Car that needs to be adjusted!!! but we can still shape our FFB feel through the relative and scoop settings:yes: uuuugh why didn't any of you try to tell me this before:o

That's right mate! 100/100/100/100 is my new rule! If I change anything at all, is only the master scale.

PureMalt77
02-02-2016, 09:13
Ah, I only hope SMS leaves everything as is and come with no surprises with 9.0 :eek:

GrimeyDog
02-02-2016, 09:31
Ah, I only hope SMS leaves everything as is and come with no surprises with 9.0 :eek:

I Highly Doubt it!!! I fear this will be Like 6.0 which was Close to perfect IMO they will Change something and take it away again like 6.0

So the Official word on 8.0 is that they Only Adjusted the Tire Model...Well Either were all Crazy or this was 1 Hell of a Tire Model update!!!

Mascot
02-02-2016, 11:04
This might be an incredibly simplistic and naive request, but with the recent patch updates and since changing from a Fanatec GT2 to a CSR Elite, I feel I need to update my basic in-game and on-wheel FFB settings. I want something nicely rounded with a lot of detail, medium strength, and little-to-no-clipping.

Any suggestions please?

morpwr
02-02-2016, 12:38
This might be an incredibly simplistic and naive request, but with the recent patch updates and since changing from a Fanatec GT2 to a CSR Elite, I feel I need to update my basic in-game and on-wheel FFB settings. I want something nicely rounded with a lot of detail, medium strength, and little-to-no-clipping.

Any suggestions please?

Start with the defaults and do what grimey said earlier. You will probably be amazed at how little you have to do.

morpwr
02-02-2016, 12:51
I've been looking... i even saw this same list last night seems like this is going to be expensive because i dont like the rigs with the bar in the middle so it always comes back to the 2x choices... The RS1 or the Obutto... the Obutto comes with more moniter stands shifter mounts ETC its priced cheaper but dude to higher shipping cost they both come out to the same total $$$ end figure... The obutto will Not be in stock until end of the month....Hmmmm im going to keep watching them with my finger on the buy button maybe i will luck out and catch a sale... seems i cant get it away from the 1K mark for a good set up... i want to buy 1 time and buy right i don't want to buy it again for Ever...LOL... reports say the Obutto is built like a tank!!!

Arent you worried about the wheel mount flexing on the rs1? That's one of the reasons I went with the gt omega. The playseat wasn't bad until you start getting more powerful wheels then it becomes really apparent and annoying. Plus the stupid center pole was always in the way. Its probably fine if youre shorter but not when youre 6'4. The obutto looks nice though.

BigDad
02-02-2016, 12:52
You know how nothing changed with patch 8.0 but ffb did somehow .? Do you think SMS implemented someone's settings , say Grimeys but left all the settings looking like their same old defaults ( conspiracy ) ?
I dont know but from release default ffb to patch 8.0 ffb wow , could it be just the tyre model change ?

morpwr
02-02-2016, 12:57
I'm not buying it. But I'm sure we will never know. In the beginning nobody could get good ffb now its easy. Just another day in p cars.lol

BigDad
02-02-2016, 13:02
Default didn't work upon release now it does ? I'm just saying .

Haiden
02-02-2016, 13:18
Arent you worried about the wheel mount flexing on the rs1? That's one of the reasons I went with the gt omega. The playseat wasn't bad until you start getting more powerful wheels then it becomes really apparent and annoying. Plus the stupid center pole was always in the way. Its probably fine if youre shorter but not when youre 6'4. The obutto looks nice though.

That's why I went with the GT Omega. It's a sturdy rig. No movement or flex at all in the frame. The pedal is fine, but I'm going to install a locking bar across the front end. The tie downs work, but they allow a little too much flex.


You know how nothing changed with patch 8.0 but ffb did somehow .? Do you think SMS implemented someone's settings , say Grimeys but left all the settings looking like their same old defaults ( conspiracy ) ?
I dont know but from release default ffb to patch 8.0 ffb wow , could it be just the tyre model change ?

There were a lot of good tunes floating around the forums, but I seriously doubt SMS used anyone's settings and called them their own. Give them the credit they deserve. They just simply fixed/adjusted something . It could have just been the tire model. Considering that's where most of the forces are generated, it would have a huge effect. Or perhaps they changed something else in the globals. I don't know. But I think everyone here has been away from the global settings long enough to have missed this. There's no telling when it actually changed, but I do recall hearing quite a few people say they just used the default global and in-car settings and thought it was fine, long before 8.0 came out. It's hard for me to judge, though, because I also did a complete reinstall before giving the globals a shot. The reinstall might have cleaned something up. Either way, I don't think it matters. I'm just glad they made whatever changes they did. I also don't think SMS plans to make any more major adjustments, so this model should stick.

Mascot
02-02-2016, 13:32
Start with the defaults and do what grimey said earlier. You will probably be amazed at how little you have to do.

I need a little more help please - what exactly do you mean by this? Could you link to the post please? There's 34 pages of posts so I don't want to pick the wrong one..! :)

morpwr
02-02-2016, 13:36
That's why I went with the GT Omega. It's a sturdy rig. No movement or flex at all in the frame. The pedal is fine, but I'm going to install a locking bar across the front end. The tie downs work, but they allow a little too much flex.



There were a lot of good tunes floating around the forums, but I seriously doubt SMS used anyone's settings and called them their own. Give them the credit they deserve. They just simply fixed/adjusted something . It could have just been the tire model. Considering that's where most of the forces are generated, it would have a huge effect. Or perhaps they changed something else in the globals. I don't know. But I think everyone here has been away from the global settings long enough to have missed this. There's no telling when it actually changed, but I do recall hearing quite a few people say they just used the default global and in-car settings and thought it was fine, long before 8.0 came out. It's hard for me to judge, though, because I also did a complete reinstall before giving the globals a shot. The reinstall might have cleaned something up. Either way, I don't think it matters. I'm just glad they made whatever changes they did. I also don't think SMS plans to make any more major adjustments, so this model should stick.

Yes that would be my only complaint about the rig. But its pretty minor and easy to come up with some thing better. Nice thing is I mounted the amp for the buttkicker to the bottom of the pedal mount and a power strip to the inside of the bottom leg so if you need to do anything its easy to get at. Keeps everything nice and neat plus it gives me a place to plug in the tablet.

Haiden
02-02-2016, 15:44
Yes that would be my only complaint about the rig. But its pretty minor and easy to come up with some thing better. Nice thing is I mounted the amp for the buttkicker to the bottom of the pedal mount and a power strip to the inside of the bottom leg so if you need to do anything its easy to get at. Keeps everything nice and neat plus it gives me a place to plug in the tablet.

Yep. That's my only complaint, as well, but I don't think any rig is perfect. They will all require some small personal adjustment. I was planning to mount a power strip beneath the pedal, as well. It's nice little space to hide stuff like that. I also went ahead and got the table top wheel deck. It was a good addition, lot more room alongside and behind the wheel for mounts and/or stands. I think I'm going to order the caster wheels, as well. I have my frame on felt pads, so I can slide it around my hardwood floor easily enough, but I want the rig to sit a little higher. Eventually, I'll get the monitor stand and mount a screen to it, but for now, I'm using a TV that's on a stand and can't adjust the height.

morpwr
02-02-2016, 16:57
I need a little more help please - what exactly do you mean by this? Could you link to the post please? There's 34 pages of posts so I don't want to pick the wrong one..! :)

Sorry .Basically start with the default setup and tweak from there. Don't turn up the ffb master for your wheel past the default value use it as the final volume/weight for the wheel. Haiden or Grimey can probably help you more with scoops as they have fanatic wheels but we are all pretty close I think at this point. I'm at 28 and 80 for scoops. Pretty sure grimey is at .85 for rac and so am I. Give it a shot and sure grimey or Haiden can offer more suggestions.

Haiden
02-02-2016, 18:45
I need a little more help please - what exactly do you mean by this? Could you link to the post please? There's 34 pages of posts so I don't want to pick the wrong one..! :)


Sorry .Basically start with the default setup and tweak from there. Don't turn up the ffb master for your wheel past the default value use it as the final volume/weight for the wheel. Haiden or Grimey can probably help you more with scoops as they have fanatic wheels but we are all pretty close I think at this point. I'm at 28 and 80 for scoops. Pretty sure grimey is at .85 for rac and so am I. Give it a shot and sure grimey or Haiden can offer more suggestions.

Since 8.0, the settings below are the only things I change, and it feels marvelous. :)

Scoop Knee = 0.80
Scoop Reduction = 0.26

In-Car Master Scale = 44

I also lower the CSW-v2 on wheel FF = 95

I leave all the other in-car scales at their default value. If the car is running SoP by default, then I set the SoP Scale to match the Master Scale. I've tested about 95% of the cars in game, so far. Running the SMS defaults brings out the individual characteristics of each car, in terms of feel. I've always loved the game, but haven't had as much fun with PCars as I'm having now. Feels better, and it's easier to hop in and enjoy. No more fiddling around means more racing. :)

Also: The default FF/TF in PCars for the CSW-v2 is 50/100. I'm assuming it's the same for everyone, but...just in case. :)

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 04:10
You know how nothing changed with patch 8.0 but ffb did somehow .? Do you think SMS implemented someone's settings , say Grimeys but left all the settings looking like their same old defaults ( conspiracy ) ?
I dont know but from release default ffb to patch 8.0 ffb wow , could it be just the tyre model change ?

i think that's Exactly what they did... they collected data from the tweeker threads and made the Final FFB solution...and 1 In Car FFB Can Rule them all as i have been saying for months!!! we will never know who's or what formula they used but I'm happy with the default FFB ...I Retweeked the relative and scoop settings and i have 99% of my FFB feel back just Smoother...i got i back pretty much 1 to 1 same feel as the settings i was using so im happy and ready to go... Left some good lap times for the FA and Prototype people to chase to test the FFB on Wattkins short...LOL.... yes i can do it on any track but i love Watkins short because it don't take all day to Run a few laps...Its Quick and fast but the track is not as easy as it seems when you going for lap times...you have to have good FFB and Road feel to Keep your speed up in the curves!!!

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 04:59
GM FFB 35

TF 1.00

RAG 1.00
RAB 0.14
RAC 0.84 Keeps the wheel running cool and still Plenty of FFB Feel and power!!!

Scoop Knee 0.70
Scoop reduc 0.10


Masters Scale 50 all other fx,Fy etc settings left stock @ 100.00

SoP master 50
10
100.00.0
0.0

Running 1:06.xxx for sport with stock 8.0 FFB and stock Tune!!!

8.0 Stock FFB is so Good its putting all tweekers out of bizness!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZWMzjQID9s)

Warren1571
03-02-2016, 05:04
Can you easily do a global reset to default for all FFB? (without doing a full delete/einstall) I've messed around with the FFB all so much now for different cars etc that I don't know what's what anymore.

I think I'm happy if I can just run with the defaults, and it sounds like that's the way to go after the latest patch.

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 06:19
Can you easily do a global reset to default for all FFB? (without doing a full delete/einstall) I've messed around with the FFB all so much now for different cars etc that I don't know what's what anymore.

I think I'm happy if I can just run with the defaults, and it sounds like that's the way to go after the latest patch.

Your going to have to delete your game profile to reset all Car FFB settings. unless you do a save all for all cars... i don't do that because some cars use diff suspension for diff tracks.

wahwah
03-02-2016, 06:33
The default global settings have actually been good for quite some time, mind you, I completely leap frogged (frog leapt?) Patch 7.0, which sounded like it was a bit messy. The first real hurdle to overcome on consoles was people's insistence on running their FFB master to its maximum, well beyond the recommended defaults, due to a misunderstanding about some fundamental differences between the implementation of the game on PC and consoles and what had been recommended by the PC guys, without realising that we had one less final output stage on consoles (the software Control Panel for the specific wheel). I had been advocating FF on default (per wheel) since August last year, and had some humorous discussions with various forum members who had all sorts of whacky reasons to cling to their 100 FF setups, all of which felt terrible in the game. Thankfully, Grimey had come to the same conclusion about the FFB master on consoles, and it was then verified in a discussion I had with Tim Mann (Console Lead for SMS) and later by Thrustmaster themselves, at least in regard to their products.

Once the FFB master is returned to its optimum operating level, the rest of the system falls into place, with adequate input via TF, in-car tweaking to taste, and moderate compression levels via Relative Adjusts and Scoops. This, combined with improvements at SMS end with the already powerful tyre and physics model, have led to a game with extraordinary degrees of available adjustment, but a default global setup that works extremely well. The available adjustments offer a very broad range to suit all sorts of driving styles and personal tastes in FFB response, even though their cryptic descriptions and fine degree of interaction between parameters had us all scratching our heads at first. With the most pressing misconceptions and misunderstandings resolved, some great contributions from the theoretical and practical minded alike, and a lot of laps of testing, we have come a long way toward taming the PCars FFB beast. With an excellent default start point and an acquired understanding of the impact of the parameters, we can all find our taste in FFB for our wheels. It will be interesting to see if our collective experience has any bearing on the FFB implementation in PCars 2. Various foibles aside, it still blows my mind that a game this good is available on console. Enjoy!

tennenbaum
03-02-2016, 07:03
GM FFB 35

TF 98 ***TF 1.00 feels good also***

RAG 0.98 ***RAC 1.00 feels good also***
RAB 0.14
RAC 0.84 Keeps the wheel running cool and still Plenty of FFB Feel and power!!!

Scoop Knee 0.68
Scoop reduc 0.08


Masters Scale 50 all other fx,Fy etc settings left stock @ 100.00

SoP master 50
10
100.00.0
0.0

Running 1:06.xxx for sport with stock 8.0 FFB and stock Tune!!!

8.0 Stock FFB is so Good its putting all tweekers out of bizness!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZWMzjQID9s)

did you reduce scoop reduction from 0.18 to 0.08?

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 07:17
I agree 100% Wahwah... Very well Written.

Boy oooh Boy Wow!!! Did i take a Few Flamings because of the GM FFB 100 debate...I think that Guy is Still teaching and pushing that GM FFB 100 theory...i actually think that he is smart enough to know he was wrong but his Ego will not let him say he was wrong...Im Glad that most are beyond that Now and Know better!... The FFB has Really came along way... I still want 6.0 tire Model back though...LOL

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 07:25
Yup 0.08... Whole New Global set up there... Feels Good for Now... I will fine tune it More... But first i Needed to figure out settings that would Stop the Extra Heat 8.0 creates... Just using default my wheel was 15F degrees hotter during short gaming sessions... Some settings Need to be set Lower because 8.0 cranks out more Power even though it feels much smoother.

morpwr
03-02-2016, 12:08
I agree 100% Wahwah... Very well Written.

Boy oooh Boy Wow!!! Did i take a Few Flamings because of the GM FFB 100 debate...I think that Guy is Still teaching and pushing that GM FFB 100 theory...i actually think that he is smart enough to know he was wrong but his Ego will not let him say he was wrong...Im Glad that most are beyond that Now and Know better!... The FFB has Really came along way... I still want 6.0 tire Model back though...LOL

I just had someone arguing he wouldn't believe using 100% is wrong and its just heresay. I don't get why guys fight so hard because someone says so, Just try it and see for yourself. As Wahwah said once you get away from using above default ffb for your wheel its much easier as we all know from experience. It was just brought up again and ignored again as to why he is still telling console users to set ffb at 100. I don't know but I'm old enough to admit when I'm wrong ive done it here on this forum. If we all knew everything we wouldn't be here.lol

morpwr
03-02-2016, 12:12
Yup 0.08... Whole New Global set up there... Feels Good for Now... I will fine tune it More... But first i Needed to figure out settings that would Stop the Extra Heat 8.0 creates... Just using default my wheel was 15F degrees hotter during short gaming sessions... Some settings Need to be set Lower because 8.0 cranks out more Power even though it feels much smoother.

Grimey is the 15 degrees really an issue ? I don't remember your wheel being borderline overheating. About 100 degrees is I remember correctly.

Haiden
03-02-2016, 12:20
I just had someone arguing he wouldn't believe using 100% is wrong and its just heresay. I don't get why guys fight so hard because someone says so, Just try it and see for yourself. As Wahwah said once you get away from using above default ffb for your wheel its much easier as we all know from experience. It was just brought up again and ignored again as to why he is still telling console users to set ffb at 100. I don't know but I'm old enough to admit when I'm wrong ive done it here on this forum. If we all knew everything we wouldn't be here.lol

I was definitely in the FF=100 camp early on, and for a while. Wasn't until around 6.0 that I decided I got a better feel running it lower. My times didn't really change much, but the wheel felt better. IMO, the running high FF can make it feel a bit similar to FM5, which might have accounted for the preferences of some early on. Even with PCar's initial issues, it only took a second to realize PCars' FFB was far better than FM5. But, for long-time FM players, I think it took longer to actually adjust to what good FFB was.



Can you easily do a global reset to default for all FFB? (without doing a full delete/einstall) I've messed around with the FFB all so much now for different cars etc that I don't know what's what anymore.

I think I'm happy if I can just run with the defaults, and it sounds like that's the way to go after the latest patch.

You switch it back to the Default profile in the globals. Just change it from Custom to Default. That's the closest thing to a reset. It will reset all the scales on the TF screen and also the FF slider. But it won't change your sensitivity settings--brake, throttle, steering. There's no way to reset the in-car FFB without affecting the other scales. But the defaults are pretty easy to figure out. You can also just click reset, view the settings, and then not save the configuration.


Grimey is the 15 degrees really an issue ? I don't remember your wheel being borderline overheating. About 100 degrees is I remember correctly.

I believe 115-120 degrees is still within Fanatec's recommended operating range. I'm actually planning to swap my fans out for quieter, faster units. The side intake is easy to match and swap, but the rear exhaust fan is not in a housing, which is going to make it a little trickier.

morpwr
03-02-2016, 12:46
The default global settings have actually been good for quite some time, mind you, I completely leap frogged (frog leapt?) Patch 7.0, which sounded like it was a bit messy. The first real hurdle to overcome on consoles was people's insistence on running their FFB master to its maximum, well beyond the recommended defaults, due to a misunderstanding about some fundamental differences between the implementation of the game on PC and consoles and what had been recommended by the PC guys, without realising that we had one less final output stage on consoles (the software Control Panel for the specific wheel). I had been advocating FF on default (per wheel) since August last year, and had some humorous discussions with various forum members who had all sorts of whacky reasons to cling to their 100 FF setups, all of which felt terrible in the game. Thankfully, Grimey had come to the same conclusion about the FFB master on consoles, and it was then verified in a discussion I had with Tim Mann (Console Lead for SMS) and later by Thrustmaster themselves, at least in regard to their products.

Once the FFB master is returned to its optimum operating level, the rest of the system falls into place, with adequate input via TF, in-car tweaking to taste, and moderate compression levels via Relative Adjusts and Scoops. This, combined with improvements at SMS end with the already powerful tyre and physics model, have led to a game with extraordinary degrees of available adjustment, but a default global setup that works extremely well. The available adjustments offer a very broad range to suit all sorts of driving styles and personal tastes in FFB response, even though their cryptic descriptions and fine degree of interaction between parameters had us all scratching our heads at first. With the most pressing misconceptions and misunderstandings resolved, some great contributions from the theoretical and practical minded alike, and a lot of laps of testing, we have come a long way toward taming the PCars FFB beast. With an excellent default start point and an acquired understanding of the impact of the parameters, we can all find our taste in FFB for our wheels. It will be interesting to see if our collective experience has any bearing on the FFB implementation in PCars 2. Various foibles aside, it still blows my mind that a game this good is available on console. Enjoy!

Well said!

morpwr
03-02-2016, 13:13
[QUOTE=Haiden;1226407]I was definitely in the FF=100 camp early on, and for a while. Wasn't until around 6.0 that I decided I got a better feel running it lower. My times didn't really change much, but the wheel felt better. IMO, the running high FF can make it feel a bit similar to FM5, which might have accounted for the preferences of some early on. Even with PCar's initial issues, it only took a second to realize PCars' FFB was far better than FM5. But, for long-time FM players, I think it took longer to actually adjust to what good FFB was.

I was too but with the t300 it always felt weird and grainy like that. Something I definitely hated. But in the beginning like most I had no idea what all the adjustments did so I did what I was told.lol Biggest thing was in the beginning you would get pieces of how good it could be but you couldn't get all the ffb effects to felt clearly at once. So I started tweaking and learning what everything did. Thankfully for many of us grimey started this post where you could openly share ideas which I really think helped things progress alot faster for everyone involved. I don't really think he knew in the beginning it was going to turn into what it did here but I think he deserves a big thanks from us. Thanks grimey!

wahwah
03-02-2016, 17:28
I just had someone arguing he wouldn't believe using 100% is wrong and its just heresay. I don't get why guys fight so hard because someone says so, Just try it and see for yourself. As Wahwah said once you get away from using above default ffb for your wheel its much easier as we all know from experience. It was just brought up again and ignored again as to why he is still telling console users to set ffb at 100. I don't know but I'm old enough to admit when I'm wrong ive done it here on this forum. If we all knew everything we wouldn't be here.lol

I've had that discussion enough times here to realise that, just like in the rest of life, there are those who will cling to certain concepts as if it's part of their identity, and perceive it as a threat to have those concepts challenged. Once in that state, the mind is closed for business! We've got some pretty sharp science minds here (tennenbaum, skoader, et al), but it doesn't take their mathematical acumen to work out that the PC system, with essentially two master output controls, is going to behave differently to the console system with one master output control. It also doesn't take any tricky math to work out that a two output system, with the first set at 100, feeding into a second set at 75 (the default for a T300 in their PC control panel) is going to equal a final output to the wheel of 75, having been attenuated by the final master output. No cookies for working out where the master needs to be set in a single master output system. With regard to the PCars master FFB controls, it really is as simple as that.

The only way the PC guys could replicate setting the console FF master to 100, would be to have both their in game master and Control Panel master set to 100. I haven't seen a single one of them recommend that. If they did, along with the other recommendations of TF and SG at 100 and 1.0 respectively, there'd be a bunch of PC guys sending their wheels back to Thrustmaster, just as I'm sure many PS4 players have had to do as a result of following misguided advice. Lowering TF is lowering input, and in the ubiquitous audio analogies we see referred to here, that would be equal to lowering preamp gain on an input channel, which anyone who knows their audio knows that it will directly affect the threshold settings of any dynamics controllers further down the chain (compression, limiting, expansion) or in the PCars environment, Relative Gain, Scoop and Soft Clipping. Lowering input gain without then adjusting compression thresholds is a rookie mistake.

The other obvious, telling factor is that the FFB master comes after telemetry, so any boosting at the end of the chain renders the telemetry readings almost useless. I heard many arguments suggesting that the maximum FFB setting on consoles was providing all sorts of wondrous improvements in detail and dynamic range. More likely, that grainy, crunchy nastiness I felt in every 100 FF setup I tried was probably just clipping at the final output to the wheel. All of the calculations presented in the telemetry readings are between TF and SG. If those readings are getting close to maximum, and we then boost by 25% after the metering, it's no wonder so many T300s went 'Linda Blair' on us. The audio equivalent would be carefully checking your output via metering, but then adding a master output control post-metering, which we then crank by 25 dB, and then wondering why our HF drivers in our speakers are going up in a little puff of blue smoke. For the PC guys, setting their in-game FFB master at 100 is fine, because the Control Panel driver setting will attenuate that final output to the wheel. For those of us on consoles, our only point of attenuation is our single FFB master (in the case of Thrustmaster and Logitech...the Fanatec guys have their wheel controls). The default FFB master recommendations per wheel are not arbitrary figures selected from a hat, either in the PC driver Control Panel, or the FFB master in the console version of the game. They are the recommended final output for the specific wheel.

At least in this thread, I know I'm preaching to the choir, because most of the guys here have now worked this out for themselves after taking this advice and trying it. After some of the ridiculous discussions I had with people who were clearly just clinging to something Jack had said that only pertained to the PC implementation, I learned that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them turn down their FFB master to default on consoles. Such is life. What can we do? More laps, more racing, more fun. :D

Gamer82678
03-02-2016, 19:57
At this time utilizing FFB 30 in Project Cars.

As calculated by FFB Calculator 2.0.3 in Google Sheets.

Thrustmaster T300 RS
Deadzone Removal Range: 0.28
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.028
Scoop Knee: 0.51
Scoop Reduction: 0.10
Steering Gain: 1.00

With the 8.0 Update of Project Cars on PS4 I have reduced Tire Force from 75 to 70.

Utilizing Jack Spade's Fy+Sop physical model tweaks primarily.

Will chime in later and share all global settings later.

After any system or application update on PS4 I always rebuild database and restart PS4.

After any Project Cars update I reset all global system Force Feedback settings calibrate wheel and pedals and enter all previous Custom parameter values again.

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 19:59
Grimey is the 15 degrees really an issue ? I don't remember your wheel being borderline overheating. About 100 degrees is I remember correctly.

I dont Know if the 15F Degree temp increase is a Huge issue but there was No Noticable performance increase to justify the temperature increase. all wheel settings were the same the only changes made were in the Game... I Noticed that temp increase Right away only after a short while of playing before i addressed it so it more than likely would Run Much Hotter during extended Game play usage....I took it that it could likely be a issue because i started seeing post about Game FFB fade after short times of wheel usage mostly with T300 wheels though.... But in any event with My New Globals the wheel Temp Stays 95F or below and wheel has same power as it did when temp was running 15F Hotter... Because i adjusted the Global settings to Reduce wheel temp that will allow Me to turn the on Wheel FFB from 75 to 85 if i want more FFB power at the wheel without fear of over heating issues... the point is No Need for the wheel to Run hot if there are No Notable performance Gains... The RAC seems it has been turned up and the extra FFB current gets grounded out and Released as Excess Heat...That has the potential to cause long term Wheel issues in the Future.

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 20:09
I've had that discussion enough times here to realise that, just like in the rest of life, there are those who will cling to certain concepts as if it's part of their identity, and perceive it as a threat to have those concepts challenged. Once in that state, the mind is closed for business! We've got some pretty sharp science minds here (tennenbaum, skoader, et al), but it doesn't take their mathematical acumen to work out that the PC system, with essentially two master output controls, is going to behave differently to the console system with one master output control. It also doesn't take any tricky math to work out that a two output system, with the first set at 100, feeding into a second set at 75 (the default for a T300 in their PC control panel) is going to equal a final output to the wheel of 75, having been attenuated by the final master output. No cookies for working out where the master needs to be set in a single master output system. With regard to the PCars master FFB controls, it really is as simple as that.

The only way the PC guys could replicate setting the console FF master to 100, would be to have both their in game master and Control Panel master set to 100. I haven't seen a single one of them recommend that. If they did, along with the other recommendations of TF and SG at 100 and 1.0 respectively, there'd be a bunch of PC guys sending their wheels back to Thrustmaster, just as I'm sure many PS4 players have had to do as a result of following misguided advice. Lowering TF is lowering input, and in the ubiquitous audio analogies we see referred to here, that would be equal to lowering preamp gain on an input channel, which anyone who knows their audio knows that it will directly affect the threshold settings of any dynamics controllers further down the chain (compression, limiting, expansion) or in the PCars environment, Relative Gain, Scoop and Soft Clipping. Lowering input gain without then adjusting compression thresholds is a rookie mistake.

The other obvious, telling factor is that the FFB master comes after telemetry, so any boosting at the end of the chain renders the telemetry readings almost useless. I heard many arguments suggesting that the maximum FFB setting on consoles was providing all sorts of wondrous improvements in detail and dynamic range. More likely, that grainy, crunchy nastiness I felt in every 100 FF setup I tried was probably just clipping at the final output to the wheel. All of the calculations presented in the telemetry readings are between TF and SG. If those readings are getting close to maximum, and we then boost by 25% after the metering, it's no wonder so many T300s went 'Linda Blair' on us. The audio equivalent would be carefully checking your output via metering, but then adding a master output control post-metering, which we then crank by 25 dB, and then wondering why our HF drivers in our speakers are going up in a little puff of blue smoke. For the PC guys, setting their in-game FFB master at 100 is fine, because the Control Panel driver setting will attenuate that final output to the wheel. For those of us on consoles, our only point of attenuation is our single FFB master (in the case of Thrustmaster and Logitech...the Fanatec guys have their wheel controls). The default FFB master recommendations per wheel are not arbitrary figures selected from a hat, either in the PC driver Control Panel, or the FFB master in the console version of the game. They are the recommended final output for the specific wheel.

At least in this thread, I know I'm preaching to the choir, because most of the guys here have now worked this out for themselves after taking this advice and trying it. After some of the ridiculous discussions I had with people who were clearly just clinging to something Jack had said that only pertained to the PC implementation, I learned that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them turn down their FFB master to default on consoles. Such is life. What can we do? More laps, more racing, more fun. :D

Some People are like sheep...they will Follow any one just because they think they are important... In JS case Some one said they follow him because he has WMD on his Name and he works closely with SMS...and to that i say FOH:confused:......LOL:rolleyes:

Gamer82678
03-02-2016, 20:12
I find the Default of 75 Force Feedback and 100 Tire Force to be too strong for my Thrustmaster T300 RS.
Especially after the latest firmware updates by Thrustmaster.

SGETI
03-02-2016, 20:20
Some People are like sheep...they will Follow any one just because they think they are important... :

Lets keep politics and the "Donald" out of this thread. :rolleyes:

Gamer82678
03-02-2016, 20:31
FFB 30 in this cave with this Thrustmaster T300 RS based upon mathematical and scientific testing at various strength values to find the best linearity after many hours. :cool:

Gamer82678
03-02-2016, 20:37
I'm kinda new to the game but, I feel finding that linearity and knowing your wheels response characteristic based on linearity is the the secret for tweakin' in that sweeter than mudda fuggin bear meat force feedback to your preference. :cool:

Gamer82678
03-02-2016, 21:04
Wanna share a vid on YouTube:https://youtu.be/NM-gB9EnyEs

Green Hell Madness in career mode. Last 30 minutes.
With McLaren F1 at Nordschleife with recent global settings.
Much thanks to Mauler_77 for his setup in the Pcars setup database ! Had to change front toe angle to a negative value of -0.9 ! :cool:
Boy is that McLaren F1 slippery ! After trying to learn Nordschleife and doing this 2 hour race sitting in a pool of sweat afterwards I had to give Project Cars a break for a while ! :p
Couldn't have been done without the things I have learnt from you guys here ! :cool:
This is why I read this forum ! :rolleyes: :cool:
The driving gets sloppy but, at least I won the race ! :rolleyes: :cool:

morpwr
03-02-2016, 21:52
I find the Default of 75 Force Feedback and 100 Tire Force to be too strong for my Thrustmaster T300 RS.
Especially after the latest firmware updates by Thrustmaster.

That's the point use it. Just turn it down some.I think I'm at 68.

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 23:08
GM FFB 35

TF 1.00

RAG 1.00
RAB 0.14
RAC 0.84 Keeps the wheel running cool and still Plenty of FFB Feel and power!!!

Scoop Knee 0.70 New
Scoop reduc 0.15 New


Masters Scale 50 all other fx,Fy etc settings left stock @ 100.00

SoP master 50
10
100.00.0
0.0

Running 1:06.xxx for sport with stock 8.0 FFB and stock Tune!!!

8.0 Stock FFB is so Good its putting all tweekers out of bizness!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZWMzjQID9s)


did you reduce scoop reduction from 0.18 to 0.08?

Wow!!! Just Wow!!! i revisited the scoop settings because you asked this question...and Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I'm Blown away by how Good the default Scoop settings feel with My New relative settings....Just wow!!! tennenbaum either your a Genius, Alien or SMS spy;)

When a Genius ask a specific question its wise to back track and inspect your work:yes:

GrimeyDog
03-02-2016, 23:23
I believe 115-120 degrees is still within Fanatec's recommended operating range. I'm actually planning to swap my fans out for quieter, faster units. The side intake is easy to match and swap, but the rear exhaust fan is not in a housing, which is going to make it a little trickier.

While the 15 degrees may be well within operating specs i see no need for the wheel to run hotter if there is no Notable performance increase... when Pcars first launched and the FFB was screwed up every which way My wheel was running at 135*F i contactec Fanatec and they said that was fine and within specs... as i learned to tweek the FFB i saw that i could keep the wheel running cooler with the proper global settings and still maintain the same FFB Strength level with better detail with Less heat generated by the wheel...yes the V2 wheel can take it but over time the extra heat can cause the belts to become worn and stretched quicker.... so because there is no notable performance increase i see No valid reason to have the wheel run hotter than it has to... Just me being OCD tweek tweek tweek

inthebagbud
04-02-2016, 00:10
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! i revisited the scoop settings because you asked this question...and Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I'm Blown away by how Good the default Scoop settings feel with My New relative settings....Just wow!!! tennenbaum either your a Genius, Alien or SMS spy;)

When a Genius ask a specific question its wise to back track and inspect your work:yes:

Grimey question is has the same happened on the xbox , I promised myself I wouldn't tinker anymore plus I don't want the answer to be yes as I will have wasted 6 months of my life!!!

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 00:16
Grimey question is has the same happened on the xbox , I promised myself I wouldn't tinker anymore plus I don't want the answer to be yes as I will have wasted 6 months of my life!!!

I Fear this May be the Case on XB1 also... I've been perfecting the Set up on PS4 first then it ports to XB1 1 to 1 with the exception the XB1 Needs its Own Master FFB setting... Usually 10 Lower than PS4 GM FFB.... I will let you Know by the weekend.

tennenbaum
04-02-2016, 00:52
I've had that discussion enough times here to realise that, just like in the rest of life, there are those who will cling to certain concepts as if it's part of their identity, and perceive it as a threat to have those concepts challenged. Once in that state, the mind is closed for business! We've got some pretty sharp science minds here (tennenbaum, skoader, et al), but it doesn't take their mathematical acumen to work out that the PC system, with essentially two master output controls, is going to behave differently to the console system with one master output control. It also doesn't take any tricky math to work out that a two output system, with the first set at 100, feeding into a second set at 75 (the default for a T300 in their PC control panel) is going to equal a final output to the wheel of 75, having been attenuated by the final master output. No cookies for working out where the master needs to be set in a single master output system. With regard to the PCars master FFB controls, it really is as simple as that.

The only way the PC guys could replicate setting the console FF master to 100, would be to have both their in game master and Control Panel master set to 100. I haven't seen a single one of them recommend that. If they did, along with the other recommendations of TF and SG at 100 and 1.0 respectively, there'd be a bunch of PC guys sending their wheels back to Thrustmaster, just as I'm sure many PS4 players have had to do as a result of following misguided advice. Lowering TF is lowering input, and in the ubiquitous audio analogies we see referred to here, that would be equal to lowering preamp gain on an input channel, which anyone who knows their audio knows that it will directly affect the threshold settings of any dynamics controllers further down the chain (compression, limiting, expansion) or in the PCars environment, Relative Gain, Scoop and Soft Clipping. Lowering input gain without then adjusting compression thresholds is a rookie mistake.

The other obvious, telling factor is that the FFB master comes after telemetry, so any boosting at the end of the chain renders the telemetry readings almost useless. I heard many arguments suggesting that the maximum FFB setting on consoles was providing all sorts of wondrous improvements in detail and dynamic range. More likely, that grainy, crunchy nastiness I felt in every 100 FF setup I tried was probably just clipping at the final output to the wheel. All of the calculations presented in the telemetry readings are between TF and SG. If those readings are getting close to maximum, and we then boost by 25% after the metering, it's no wonder so many T300s went 'Linda Blair' on us. The audio equivalent would be carefully checking your output via metering, but then adding a master output control post-metering, which we then crank by 25 dB, and then wondering why our HF drivers in our speakers are going up in a little puff of blue smoke. For the PC guys, setting their in-game FFB master at 100 is fine, because the Control Panel driver setting will attenuate that final output to the wheel. For those of us on consoles, our only point of attenuation is our single FFB master (in the case of Thrustmaster and Logitech...the Fanatec guys have their wheel controls). The default FFB master recommendations per wheel are not arbitrary figures selected from a hat, either in the PC driver Control Panel, or the FFB master in the console version of the game. They are the recommended final output for the specific wheel.

At least in this thread, I know I'm preaching to the choir, because most of the guys here have now worked this out for themselves after taking this advice and trying it. After some of the ridiculous discussions I had with people who were clearly just clinging to something Jack had said that only pertained to the PC implementation, I learned that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them turn down their FFB master to default on consoles. Such is life. What can we do? More laps, more racing, more fun. :D

Beside the obvious quality of your post and well tempered approach to summarize and curate a discussion that got more and more ideological than fact based, i'm glad you finally argued the case in such clear words that i can rest my mind now. ...i guess i'm not alone ;-) At some point i wondered how it was possible that the FFB 100 for consoles was stated like a theorem with such confidence, while there was neither any practical evidence nor theoretical derivation.

The few who didn't fall asleep... and followed my posts in the other threads may have noticed how fruitless and slightly absurd it became to try to settle the discussion just for the sake of the bigger picture. Meaning, why shall we confuse ourselves longer than necessary, and why to confuse people coming to the forum expecting straight answers to their questions after there was enough time for 'research' by now. It took me long to realize that what had started as a kind of innocent initiative (trying to deal with the SMS's odd FFB system in the beginning) turned into something irrational that you described perfectly (...who will cling to certain concepts as if it's part of their identity, and perceive it as a threat to have those concepts challenged). I was asking myself why do i spend time to dig into something that is - after all - not a big thing, but then i realized the complex nature and effects of having a substantial but peaceful in-depth discussion. (A rare thing nowadays anyway, and worth to practice ;-) And "preaching to the choir" puts it very well: am i getting caught in my own narrow minded-ness as well, or is there a good reason to debate it lively? With your post I'd say there is indeed good reason to go the extra mile for a clearer sight on things.

morpwr
04-02-2016, 02:47
Grimey question is has the same happened on the xbox , I promised myself I wouldn't tinker anymore plus I don't want the answer to be yes as I will have wasted 6 months of my life!!!

You didn't waste 6 months of your like. Like us look how much you've learned.:p Just trying to make you feel better about it.lol

wahwah
04-02-2016, 02:54
That's the point use it. Just turn it down some.I think I'm at 68.

Yeah, exactly right. The default FF setting on console for your specific wheel should be seen as the maximum setting for that control. Turning it down from default is not a problem.

wahwah
04-02-2016, 03:34
Beside the obvious quality of your post and well tempered approach to summarize and curate a discussion that got more and more ideological than fact based, i'm glad you finally argued the case in such clear words that i can rest my mind now. ...i guess i'm not alone ;-) At some point i wondered how it was possible that the FFB 100 for consoles was stated like a theorem with such confidence, while there was neither any practical evidence nor theoretical derivation.

The few who didn't fall asleep... and followed my posts in the other threads may have noticed how fruitless and slightly absurd it became to try to settle the discussion just for the sake of the bigger picture. Meaning, why shall we confuse ourselves longer than necessary, and why to confuse people coming to the forum expecting straight answers to their questions after there was enough time for 'research' by now. It took me long to realize that what had started as a kind of innocent initiative (trying to deal with the SMS's odd FFB system in the beginning) turned into something irrational that you described perfectly (...who will cling to certain concepts as if it's part of their identity, and perceive it as a threat to have those concepts challenged). I was asking myself why do i spend time to dig into something that is - after all - not a big thing, but then i realized the complex nature and effects of having a substantial but peaceful in-depth discussion. (A rare thing nowadays anyway, and worth to practice ;-) And "preaching to the choir" puts it very well: am i getting caught in my own narrow minded-ness as well, or is there a good reason to debate it lively? With your post I'd say there is indeed good reason to go the extra mile for a clearer sight on things.

Well the thing is, FFB@100 for consoles was never actually stated as a theorem. It was definitely stated with confidence as a theorem for the PC version, and is probably quite correct! In the PC implementation, the in-game master is a kind of 'middle man' control, and has been described as redundant, which is probably quite accurate, since it is only a feeder to ultimately be governed by the Strength of All Forces control in the PC driver software Control Panel for the specific wheel. The problems arose when console players assumed the same applied to consoles, and in those early Dark Ages, we were ready to take advice from anywhere, particularly if it was coming from guys who had been closely involved in the game's development, and understandably so!

In the console implementation, the FFB master is not a middle man control, it is all we have to govern final output to the wheel, and I'm not convinced that this has ever been fully understood by those arguing from the PC perspective, most of whom don't even own a console. I think that is where the confusion and talking at cross purposes arose. It's all perfectly understandable, IMO. We have to look at the FFB master on consoles being more akin to the driver Control Panel master on PC, which comes with a specific default per device, and that we don't have that redundant middle man control that is recommended to be left 'wide open' on PC. Once we see it that way, the confusion disappears, and it no longer matters if the PC guys don't get where we're coming from, nor those who continue to cling to advice that never really applied to PCars on consoles. I stopped arguing with them months ago, because they failed to see what appeared to me to be glaringly obvious. Besides, there were too many fun cars and tracks to drive!

We have been largely left to our own devices, and we can either complain about that, or try to work it out for ourselves. The likes of yourself and skoader and Grimey and morpwr and others have taken on the challenge of working it out for ourselves. The approaches have been different, because we are different people, and that's a good thing. Ironically, we have arrived at a place where we can appreciate how good the defaults are, but we now also have a deeper understanding of what it is that we need to tweak to really personalise the FFB to our tastes. Good for us! :cool:

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 11:43
Grimey question is has the same happened on the xbox , I promised myself I wouldn't tinker anymore plus I don't want the answer to be yes as I will have wasted 6 months of my life!!!
You Have Not wasted 6mos of Life:D
Ok... After 1 full week of testing My Final Verdict is in... as i Have Noted about a Power increase to the RAC... im am Now 100% sure there has been a Power increase to the RAC it is a diff of +10!!! So that Means that if you have found settings you were very comfortable with that you can use them exactly the way they were but you have to Reduce the RAC by 10....While the Default in Car FFB is Very Good Now i find that i had more Road, Bump and Front end Braking feel with My RA12 tweek.... My RA12 Tweek RAC was 92 with 6.0 and 7.0 but with 8.0 the RAC Needs to be set at 82 and the Feel is Exactly 1 to 1 with the Feel i Had with 6 &7.0!!! The FFB Graph Reads 1 to 1
also...Wooohooo... all your settings prior to 8.0 can Stay the same if you wish to use your old FFB Tweek just Reduce the RAC by 10.
you may have to + your GM FFB to adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength to set your final at the wheel FFB Power Level.

Yup im Going Back to My 100 in Car Masters its just a Tad Bit More Road and FFB Detail...Ex: i can Now Feel the Paint Strip when Crossing the Start Finish at Watkins Glen again!!! I cant Feel that with the Default in Car FFB... Its there but Very Very Faint also i can feel more Front wheel Traction/Traction Loss under Heavy Braking again.

morpwr
04-02-2016, 12:04
Well the thing is, FFB@100 for consoles was never actually stated as a theorem. It was definitely stated with confidence as a theorem for the PC version, and is probably quite correct! In the PC implementation, the in-game master is a kind of 'middle man' control, and has been described as redundant, which is probably quite accurate, since it is only a feeder to ultimately be governed by the Strength of All Forces control in the PC driver software Control Panel for the specific wheel. The problems arose when console players assumed the same applied to consoles, and in those early Dark Ages, we were ready to take advice from anywhere, particularly if it was coming from guys who had been closely involved in the game's development, and understandably so!

In the console implementation, the FFB master is not a middle man control, it is all we have to govern final output to the wheel, and I'm not convinced that this has ever been fully understood by those arguing from the PC perspective, most of whom don't even own a console. I think that is where the confusion and talking at cross purposes arose. It's all perfectly understandable, IMO. We have to look at the FFB master on consoles being more akin to the driver Control Panel master on PC, which comes with a specific default per device, and that we don't have that redundant middle man control that is recommended to be left 'wide open' on PC. Once we see it that way, the confusion disappears, and it no longer matters if the PC guys don't get where we're coming from, nor those who continue to cling to advice that never really applied to PCars on consoles. I stopped arguing with them months ago, because they failed to see what appeared to me to be glaringly obvious. Besides, there were too many fun cars and tracks to drive!

We have been largely left to our own devices, and we can either complain about that, or try to work it out for ourselves. The likes of yourself and skoader and Grimey and morpwr and others have taken on the challenge of working it out for ourselves. The approaches have been different, because we are different people, and that's a good thing. Ironically, we have arrived at a place where we can appreciate how good the defaults are, but we now also have a deeper understanding of what it is that we need to tweak to really personalise the FFB to our tastes. Good for us! :cool:

I always really enjoy reading yours and tennebaums posts. Its kind of funny if you think about it. But name one racing game on consoles you don't use the master for anything other than the strength of the wheel why would p cars be different? Just a thought I had while drinking my coffee before work.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 12:36
Side Note... Im Loving the Fanatec CSS SQ-H Shifter!!! It adds Sooo Much More immersion...Especially when i Shift i can Feel the Shifter Lock into Gear plus the Bump of the Buttkickers as the Car Slams into Gear under Heavy throttle!!!

Even though i Suck at Racing with it... For Now!!! :D

morpwr
04-02-2016, 12:41
Side Note... Im Loving the Fanatec CSS SQ-H Shifter!!! It adds Sooo Much More immersion...Especially when i Shift i can Feel the Shifter Lock into Gear plus the Bump of the Buttkickers as the Car Slams into Gear under Heavy throttle!!!

Even though i Suck at Racing with it... For Now!!! :D

That's all we had to do to slow you down was buy you a shifter?lol

Haiden
04-02-2016, 13:15
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! i revisited the scoop settings because you asked this question...and Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I'm Blown away by how Good the default Scoop settings feel with My New relative settings....Just wow!!! tennenbaum either your a Genius, Alien or SMS spy;)

When a Genius ask a specific question its wise to back track and inspect your work:yes:

I was playing the CSW-v2's DRI settings last night, trying it with different recommended Scoop settings. I haven't decided between DRI=Off and DRI=3, but I did notice that higher Knee and Reduction settings seemed to cause that gritty, grinding feeling. Those were the only things I was changing in the globlas and I only adjusted the Master Scale in-car. Whenever I raised the Scoop above 0.80, the grinding became stronger. I think I ended up somewhere around 0.75/0.18, but I can't remember right now. You're right. The defaults Scoop setting did feel pretty good. They seemed to feel even better with wheel DRI set to 3. Hard to explain the difference. It's subtle, but you might want to try it.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 14:20
The DRI makes the Wheel Lighter...I need the extra wheel weight or i constantly over turn the car...I went back to my regular setings with just 10 lower RAC setting... Feels Nice Never Noticed any Gritty Feels except when im pushing the car and the tires are at the point between Grip and Slipping... But i dont feel it as gritty its Road feel to Me when i get full traction it stops.

Yes the Default FFB and Scoops do Feel Great!!! But they are Not Finely dialed in and are Missing some of the important subtle Road feel details like Front Tire Grip/Slip and Weight Transfer under Heavy Braking.

i Just adjust the Game Master FFB to adjust the at the wheel power until the wheel weight feels right

gotdirt410sprintcar
04-02-2016, 14:35
Nice shifter thinking about getting one for my T500. But wheel rim with paddle's on it are the same price as shifter basically

0ne too one i know that its been talked about does anyone know what part off the thread it is.

tennenbaum
04-02-2016, 14:36
Wow!!! Just Wow!!! i revisited the scoop settings because you asked this question...and Wow!!! Just Wow!!! I'm Blown away by how Good the default Scoop settings feel with My New relative settings....Just wow!!! tennenbaum either your a Genius, Alien or SMS spy;)

When a Genius ask a specific question its wise to back track and inspect your work:yes:

;-)

btw: did your temperature drop a bit, since you set SR from 0.08 to 0.15 ?

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 15:40
;-)

btw: did your temperature drop a bit, since you set SR from 0.08 to 0.15 ?

The Temp Drop was the Result of the Decreased RAC setting... Im even back to Running My in car Masters at 100... Feels Great and Temp Stays Below 100F with same FFB power at the wheel... thats why i knew the RAC needed to be Readjusted...the wheel was just running Hotter for No Reason... There was No Power or performance increase in the Wheel FFB strength... That let Me Know the RAC was feeding too Much power and the etra was just being Grounded out and dissipated as Heat....RAC 96 =115+F RAC 82 = 90F to 95F with same at the wheel FFB power and performance.

I was a Tad sick last week so i was kinda outta it... But i feel much better and am back to testing with a Clear Head... Now that i've tested enough i can also tell the diff between FFB Changes that were Made in 8.0 VS the Tire Model Changes that were Made... these are Two Different things and should not be Overlooked/Mistaken as 1 global tire model revamp.

Haiden
04-02-2016, 15:41
The DRI makes the Wheel Lighter...I need the extra wheel weight or i constantly over turn the car...I went back to my regular setings with just 10 lower RAC setting... Feels Nice Never Noticed any Gritty Feels except when im pushing the car and the tires are at the point between Grip and Slipping... But i dont feel it as gritty its Road feel to Me when inget full traction it stops.

Yes the Default FFB and Scoops do Feel Great!!! But they are Not Finely dialed in and are Missing some of the important subtle Road feel details like Front Tire Grip/Slip and Weight Transfer under Heavy Braking.

i Just adjust the Game Master FFB to adjust the at the wheel power until the wheel weight feels right

Yep. It does get lighter with DRI settings. It took a few laps to get used to. You probably don't feel any grit, because, if I recall, your Scoop Knee is 0.68. I only felt the grittiness around 0.80 and above. I thought it was tire slip, but then realized I was feeling at times when that couldn't possibly be the case. I slowed down to 5 kph, and could still feel it when turning the wheel. It's strange.

morpwr
04-02-2016, 16:52
The DRI makes the Wheel Lighter...I need the extra wheel weight or i constantly over turn the car...I went back to my regular setings with just 10 lower RAC setting... Feels Nice Never Noticed any Gritty Feels except when im pushing the car and the tires are at the point between Grip and Slipping... But i dont feel it as gritty its Road feel to Me when i get full traction it stops.

Yes the Default FFB and Scoops do Feel Great!!! But they are Not Finely dialed in and are Missing some of the important subtle Road feel details like Front Tire Grip/Slip and Weight Transfer under Heavy Braking.

i Just adjust the Game Master FFB to adjust the at the wheel power until the wheel weight feels right

Try turning the rag up. It seems to really help with brake feel. I think it gives it more room to work with the rac turned down. You can actually feel it pulling the nose down as you brake harder. You may have to turn the ffb down a click or 2 after. Too much and it will feel sticky I guess is the best way to describe it.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 17:01
Try turning the rag up. It seems to really help with brake feel. I think it gives it more room to work with the rac turned down. You can actually feel it pulling the nose down as you brake harder. You may have to turn the ffb down a click or 2 after. Too much and it will feel sticky I guess is the best way to describe it.


The Missing Front end Feel is being caused by the High Fx settings the Default in car FBB setting Has...while the defaults are very Good to Start with they Need to be Fine tuned... Have a Look the Diagram makes Note that High Fx setting Drowns out Road,Braking Feel

Haiden
04-02-2016, 17:42
The Missing Front end Feel is being caused by the High Fx settings the Default in car FBB setting Has...while the defaults are very Good to Start with they Need to be Fine tuned... Have a Look the Diagram makes Note that High Fx setting Drowns out Road,Braking Feel

Isn't Fx the scale where acceleration and braking are transmitted, though? I have Fx much higher than you, and I feel the wheel getting heavier under braking as the weight is thrown forward, and lighter under acceleration as it goes back. When I lower/raise Fx, that feel changes accordingly. I don't know, my experience was that it was the SoP forces that were drowning out the braking and accel feel, especially the Diff. That's one of the reasons I stopped running SoP when I was using custom in-car settings. Now I leave it when I come across a car that uses it, but those cars have little brake/accel feel.

CreamyDischarge
04-02-2016, 18:20
G are you using Scoops?
I'm very confused by this if you are? As you will (by sheer definition of their existence) be manipulating the curve negatively.

morpwr
04-02-2016, 19:01
The Missing Front end Feel is being caused by the High Fx settings the Default in car FBB setting Has...while the defaults are very Good to Start with they Need to be Fine tuned... Have a Look the Diagram makes Note that High Fx setting Drowns out Road,Braking Feel

Forgot youre running the defaults.

morpwr
04-02-2016, 19:23
The Missing Front end Feel is being caused by the High Fx settings the Default in car FBB setting Has...while the defaults are very Good to Start with they Need to be Fine tuned... Have a Look the Diagram makes Note that High Fx setting Drowns out Road,Braking Feel

Actually its showing drowning out road and lateral.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 19:53
Isn't Fx the scale where acceleration and braking are transmitted, though? I have Fx much higher than you, and I feel the wheel getting heavier under braking as the weight is thrown forward, and lighter under acceleration as it goes back. When I lower/raise Fx, that feel changes accordingly. I don't know, my experience was that it was the SoP forces that were drowning out the braking and accel feel, especially the Diff. That's one of the reasons I stopped running SoP when I was using custom in-car settings. Now I leave it when I come across a car that uses it, but those cars have little brake/accel feel.

If you set Fx to a High Value while adjusting your Global settings then you probabley adjusted them to compensate to put back some of the Feel the High Fx setting is taking away. My best Guess because i Lose alot of feel setting Fx higher than 10.... Try using the default FFB and Reduce the Fx and see what you Feel.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 20:10
Forgot youre running the defaults.

Not any More i went back to My RA12 tweek with in car Masters 100... I just Lowerd the RAC from 92 to 82 and all is Fine... I dunno why they added power to the RAC but im 100% sure they did.


Actually its showing drowning out road and lateral.

Tomato, Tomoto same thing Most of the time Heavy Braking is Done in a Straight Line which invoves Straight Line Road Feel.

High Fx also Seems to make the car turn Smoother but its Not...IMO Its Not actually turning smoother The High Fx is just taking away alot of the cornering Feel.


G are you using Scoops?
I'm very confused by this if you are? As you will (by sheer definition of their existence) be manipulating the curve negatively.

Im using Scoops Feels Great to Me... I use them to shape the FFB line the way i like it to Feel.... Im Not Chasing that Linear wheel Feel.
Linear wheel Feel IMO is a Phnatom Ghost.. What Exactly is Linear Wheel Feel... What doe's it Feel Like? What exactly is it supposed to feel like? I don't think any one exactly Knows:confused:

Haiden
04-02-2016, 20:19
If you set Fx to a High Value while adjusting your Global settings then you probabley adjusted them to compensate to put back some of the Feel the High Fx setting is taking away. My best Guess because i Lose alot of feel setting Fx higher than 10.... Try using the default FFB and Reduce the Fx and see what you Feel.

When I run the defaults (global and in-car) and lower Fx, the brake/accel feel gets weaker. If I got too low, I lose it altogether, unless I lower Fy to compensate. But if I run SoP Diff, I start losing brake/accel feel as I increase the Diff. Of course, how low I can set Fx, before losing the feel varies per car. Even when it's coming through nice and strong, I always end up finding a car (or two) where it's almost nonexistent. I also think it's easy to let Fy drown the feeling out as well. If you're more of "brake before turn in" kind driver, then you might not notice as much, but if you trail brake through corners, Fy can really step on the accel/brake feel. Most drivers I know aren't totally one or the other when it comes to braking methods, depends on the car, and the corner, so the Fx/Fy balance is something to keep an eye on.

GrimeyDog
04-02-2016, 20:27
I Trail Brake Into Corners, Throttle Steer to point the Nose of the Car Gas it and GO!!!

poirqc
04-02-2016, 20:33
Im using Scoops Feels Great to Me... I use them to shape the FFB line the way i like it to Feel.... Im Not Chasing that Linear wheel Feel.
Linear wheel Feel IMO is a Phnatom Ghost.. What Exactly is Linear Wheel Feel... What doe's it Feel Like? What exactly is it supposed to feel like? I don't think any one exactly Knows:confused:

It gives a lightweight, yet informative ffb. It'll depend on your Car FFB balance, it won't save a bad Car FFB balance. With that said, you only use Deadzones and Scoops. No RAs or SC. As soon as you use them, it's not linear anymore.

I ran it for a while, with his Classic folder(#1 or #7) It was nice, but a bit too weak for my taste. It may work on a stronger wheel.

I may try it again with the Default Car FFB.

inthebagbud
04-02-2016, 20:37
on the which drowns out which setting I am not sure the picture is correct as it states FX drowns out others but bmanic and JS suggest it is Fy?

Anyway I have followed you guys for a while and made some input now and again and I know this is a ps4 thread and I am on xbox, but maybe for Grimey who can run xbox/tx here are my settings

FFB - 38
TF - 90
PWM - 0.04
PWMS - -0.04
WPS - 0.04
DRF - .24
DRF - 0.04
RAG - 1.0
RAB = 0.12
RAC - 0.96
SK - 0.74
SR - 0.11
SCHI - 0
SCFI - 0
MSS - 0.25
LSSC = 0.25
LSSS = 0.75
SG - 1

MS - 100
FX - 64
FY - 46
Fz - 78
Mz - 94 (but can go down to 60 depending on car)

No SOP or smoothing
Real Assists

I know we have decided FFB is personal but comments/critique would be appreciated, as there is really nobody in xbox land to compare with really

Cheers

morpwr
04-02-2016, 20:40
Not any More i went back to My RA12 tweek with in car Masters 100... I just Lowerd the RAC from 92 to 82 and all is Fine... I dunno why they added power to the RAC but im 100% sure they did.




Tomato, Tomoto same thing Most of the time Heavy Braking is Done in a Straight Line which invoves Straight Line Road Feel.

High Fx also Seems to make the car turn Smoother but its Not...IMO Its Not actually turning smoother The High Fx is just taking away alot of the cornering Feel.


Im using Scoops Feels Great to Me... I use them to shape the FFB line the way i like it to Feel.... Im Not Chasing that Linear wheel Feel.
Linear wheel Feel IMO is a Phnatom Ghost.. What Exactly is Linear Wheel Feel... What doe's it Feel Like? What exactly is it supposed to feel like? I don't think any one exactly Knows:confused:

Agree with the fx taking away cornering feel. We do that alot say the same thing but the other doesn't get it.lol

morpwr
04-02-2016, 20:47
on the which drowns out which setting I am not sure the picture is correct as it states FX drowns out others but bmanic and JS suggest it is Fy?

Anyway I have followed you guys for a while and made some input now and again and I know this is a ps4 thread and I am on xbox, but maybe for Grimey who can run xbox/tx here are my settings

FFB - 38
TF - 90
PWM - 0.04
PWMS - -0.04
WPS - 0.04
DRF - .24
DRF - 0.04
RAG - 1.0
RAB = 0.12
RAC - 0.96
SK - 0.74
SR - 0.11
SCHI - 0
SCFI - 0
MSS - 0.25
LSSC = 0.25
LSSS = 0.75
SG - 1

MS - 100
FX - 64
FY - 46
Fz - 78
Mz - 94 (but can go down to 60 depending on car)

No SOP or smoothing
Real Assists

I know we have decided FFB is personal but comments/critique would be appreciated, as there is really nobody in xbox land to compare with really

Cheers

Does the drr need to be that high? That seems like an awful lot. You don't feel a notch right at the top?

Apoov
04-02-2016, 20:57
Morpwr, could you please share your settings since my settings are based on yours. Which I've always liked best :)
Not sure if I really want to start messing with my settings since I'm quite pleased with them. But hey, it can always be better! I'm still using JS sop lateral, but using the default car ffb settings is the next thing I'm testing.

BTW,
I just bought driveclub and it's the first racing game that I've tried after pcars since i bought a wheel.
I think that pcars has ruined all other racing games for me. The ffb and handling is just miles ahead!
Really starting to appreciate the work SMS did with pcars. Can't wait for pcars2!!!

Haiden
04-02-2016, 22:37
Im using Scoops Feels Great to Me... I use them to shape the FFB line the way i like it to Feel.... Im Not Chasing that Linear wheel Feel.
Linear wheel Feel IMO is a Phnatom Ghost.. What Exactly is Linear Wheel Feel... What doe's it Feel Like? What exactly is it supposed to feel like? I don't think any one exactly Knows:confused:

Supposedly, for the CSW-v2, DRI=Off, and Scoop Knee/Reduction at 0/0 is linear. I tried it. It definitely feels very smooth, but also less dynamic. Cornering was also more difficult. I only gave it about three laps, though, because it just didn't feel right.

inthebagbud
04-02-2016, 22:54
Does the drr need to be that high? That seems like an awful lot. You don't feel a notch right at the top?

The drr and scoops are based on the wheelchecker thread . I used this at various ffb points 35, 50, 75 and 100 and what it showed was as you lower ffb your deadzone increases , which I kind of get as you are reduceing the signal/input .... whatever you want to call it. Also lower ffb decreases the scoop settings , which again I get as the drr has increased therefore increasing the lower level forces so you don't need as much scoop.

In all of this they are about the only two settings that I actually understand.

morpwr
05-02-2016, 01:43
The drr and scoops are based on the wheelchecker thread . I used this at various ffb points 35, 50, 75 and 100 and what it showed was as you lower ffb your deadzone increases , which I kind of get as you are reduceing the signal/input .... whatever you want to call it. Also lower ffb decreases the scoop settings , which again I get as the drr has increased therefore increasing the lower level forces so you don't need as much scoop.

In all of this they are about the only two settings that I actually understand.

My son has that wheel on xbox but I still have to get over to his house and work on it since the new patch. Our work schedules aren't working out. lol That just seems like a huge deadzone and usually you want as little as possible. It looks like your using grimeys ffb so maybe he could shed some light on that for the xbox.

gotdirt410sprintcar
05-02-2016, 03:11
you know what is crazy im done to 28 ffb at wheel its still crazy strong

GrimeyDog
05-02-2016, 11:30
you know what is crazy im done to 28 ffb at wheel its still crazy strong

Set the GM FFB back to a Decent Level, I set Mine to 35 then Reduce the RAC by 5 until you Notice that Reducing GM FFB has a Reducing Effect... Tada your set and Ready to Go... all other settings can Remain the Same

morpwr
05-02-2016, 11:51
on the which drowns out which setting I am not sure the picture is correct as it states FX drowns out others but bmanic and JS suggest it is Fy?

Anyway I have followed you guys for a while and made some input now and again and I know this is a ps4 thread and I am on xbox, but maybe for Grimey who can run xbox/tx here are my settings

FFB - 38
TF - 90
PWM - 0.04
PWMS - -0.04
WPS - 0.04
DRF - .24
DRF - 0.04
RAG - 1.0
RAB = 0.12
RAC - 0.96
SK - 0.74
SR - 0.11
SCHI - 0
SCFI - 0
MSS - 0.25
LSSC = 0.25
LSSS = 0.75
SG - 1

MS - 100
FX - 64
FY - 46
Fz - 78
Mz - 94 (but can go down to 60 depending on car)

No SOP or smoothing
Real Assists

I know we have decided FFB is personal but comments/critique would be appreciated, as there is really nobody in xbox land to compare with really

Cheers

Fy can overpower mz if too high . But fx can overpower the other two also.

GrimeyDog
05-02-2016, 12:04
Rouen Less- Essartes Short is a GREAT test Track to see How Much cornering Feel your Really Getting....Try it!!! You Really Need Good Cornering Feel to get around there Fast... Fast Straights Bumpy un-Even Corners where your front Tires Really Like to Skip around and Lose Road contact...Try GT3 and try and get below a 1:53.xxx

I was using the Stock FFB and it was Hard to keep a fast Lap because i couldnt feel the Front tires Locking the Brakes going into bumpy un-even corners.... went back to My Regular Tweek and got a 1:51.xxx much better. think that will be My New Test Track for a Bit.

BigDad
05-02-2016, 13:28
I've got a pretty handy LMP1 lap around there Grimey , can't remember the time but it was top 5 and first for a bit for the short and 9th i think for the long on the ps4 leaderboards .
Haven't tried GT3 round there yet .
Edit . Just checked 2nd for the short and 5th for long .

BigDad
06-02-2016, 12:30
Got a 1.48xxx in the Ruf GT3 .

GrimeyDog
06-02-2016, 22:27
Wow... I Never Knew the Shifter was Sooo Much Fun!!!

morpwr
06-02-2016, 23:09
[QUOTE=GrimeyDog;1227650]Rouen Less- Essartes Short is a GREAT test Track to see How Much cornering Feel your Really Getting....Try it!!! You Really Need Good Cornering Feel to get around there Fast... Fast Straights Bumpy un-Even Corners where your front Tires Really Like to Skip around and Lose Road contact...Try GT3 and try and get below a 1:53.xxx

I was using the Stock FFB and it was Hard to keep a fast Lap because i couldnt feel the Front tires Locking the Brakes going into bumpy un-even corners.... went back to My Regular Tweek and got a 1:51.xxx much better. think that will be My New Test Track for a Bit.[/QUOT

Bumpy is an understatement.

RichE
07-02-2016, 15:28
Just when i thought i was understanding lol. So if the global settings are now good with the odd tweak what should i be trying with the in car settings on the T300?

morpwr
07-02-2016, 16:06
Just when i thought i was understanding lol. So if the global settings are now good with the odd tweak what should i be trying with the in car settings on the T300?

That's all going to depend on what youre after. I would try some of the different ways and see which feels right to you. Just watch for clipping.

morpwr
07-02-2016, 16:10
I think the rocket bunny might be one of my new favorite cars and finally getting to try all of the great tracks after all these months.

GrimeyDog
07-02-2016, 16:22
I dunno... Strange But Good... When 8.0 dropped I was Not Feeling well Last week, Probabley the Flue... This week im Feeling Much Better and So is the FFB!!! Even My Regular RA_12 Tweek with 100 In car Masters is working and Feeling Great with the Normal Setting of 92 RAC!!! Maybe i entered My settings in wrong and that was throwlwing it off:confused:... Maybe i was weak from the Flue:confused: But in any event all us well in Pcars FFB Land:yes:

Seems on PS4 the last few days there have Not been alot of on Line Race Lobbys in Gt3...any 1 else Notice that?

GrimeyDog
07-02-2016, 16:27
I think the rocket bunny might be one of my new favorite cars and finally getting to try all of the great tracks after all these months.

The Rocket Bunny is a Great Car!!! Im even Having Great Fun with the Ford Super v8...What a Blast it is to drive with the Shifter!!! I gotta look back at the Post but thanks to those that convinced me to buy it.

ports
07-02-2016, 16:34
I dunno... Strange But Good... When 8.0 dropped I was Not Feeling well Last week, Probabley the Flue... This week im Feelimg Much Better and So is the FFB!!! Even My Regular RA_12 Tweek with 100 In car Masters is working and Feeling Great with the Normal Setting of 92 RAC!!! Maybe i entered My settings in wrong and that was throwlwing it off:confused:... Maybe i was weak from the Flue:confused: But in any event all us well in Pcars FFB Land:yes:

Seems on PS4 the last few days there have Not been alot of on Line Race Lobbys in Gt3...any 1 else Notice that?

I think a lot of people have been having connection issues these past couple of days with pcars / psn constantly getting disconnected so they more than likely gave up trying and played something else but i could be wrong ,My mate was effected couldn't stay online but today everything is running great for him so you might have better luck today.

Fight-Test
07-02-2016, 16:40
Morpwr, just wanted to give some props for your settings. I put a 1:59:4(z4) down at silverstone in qualification for the STA's 24hr series. It was a blind qualification which saw me end up 2nd overall and in the final race. The pole sitter hit a 1:59:2 but had to withdraw before race start which put me on point.

At the end of the 3hr race I found myself on top the gt3 field by 9 seconds in a amazing multiclass race. Wheel felt great, never had any fade or issues. Wheel felt good through the night and really relayed the temp changes of track and tires falling off.

21hrs of racing left with spa next on schedule. Great stuff man and keep sending me your updates.

I really enjoyed the race and the week leading up to race with blind qualification and practices. If any of you guys love lmp1, lmp2 or gt3/gte multiclass racing have a look. You have to qualify your way in each race and the ones that don't make it have their own race.

Good clean racing. I know alot of you don't race online or in leagues (haiden I'm looking right at you) but if any of you are looking for some guys to run with even just for Practice this is a good group. No stress as the races are 3 or weeks apart. There's a seperate weekly gt3 series coming back for next season soon also. 3.5 renault coming soon imwith open spots There are teams of 4 with many still recruiting.

This is my favorite thread on the forum, it's part educational and part tragic as any good thread should be. I know alot havent got a chance to really race yet and this would be a good place to start. If any of u guys need some info feel free to shoot me or message or check out the 24hr thread in the ps4 online section.

Mopwr, your help was a big part of the win. Thanks for the help again.

morpwr
07-02-2016, 17:30
Glad you like them. It seems everything finally fell into place. I had a blast yesterday with the rocket bunny. You could feel every little detail. I just figured out too how important fov is this weekend. I had set it wider so I could see the mirrors not realizing it screws up how you see things. Taking me a little getting used to as ive been running that way since the beginning.

Fight-Test
07-02-2016, 17:41
Glad you like them. It seems everything finally fell into place. I had a blast yesterday with the rocket bunny. You could feel every little detail. I just figured out too how important fov is this weekend. I had set it wider so I could see the mirrors not realizing it screws up how you see things. Taking me a little getting used to as ive been running that way since the beginning.

No doubt fov makes a big difference. When I use the fov calculator I always still go a little higher number like 8 or 10 but it's pretty spot on. Rocket bunny was a handful the one time I drove it. When I went left it went right.

tennenbaum
07-02-2016, 18:44
Does anybody know:

Does pCars' FFB system "weights" the Mz force as a part of the Fxyzm matrix in terms of being also one of those tireforces happening at the tire contact patch (i.e., e.g. acc. to Pacejka...), OR does Mz represent the torque at the (imaginary) steering axis, that is very depending on caster and KPI?

I'm aware that the scrub radius as a result of caster and kingpin inclination has an impact to the tireforce Mz at tire contact patch as well, but as far as i know the absolute Mz force (at tire patch) is much less strong than Mz torque forces resulting from force translations where mainly Fy and Fx translate into a torque by the geometry force effects due to the scrub radius.

In other words: When i dial in Mz settings in the in-car FFB matrix, does the FFB system computates and weights into the mix the "weak" Mz forces of contact tire patch, or the "strong" Mz forces that happen at the steering axis, eventually transformed trough rod, rack and pinion to the final torque a the steering wheel rack?

Very much looking forward to an answer, since this could explain some FFB characteristics that i still don't understand. Especially how Fx and Fz "really" interact with Mz...

PureMalt77
07-02-2016, 19:11
So, since our league is having a pause, I've decided to do some FFB science again. I was 95% happy with my previous settings but decided to do it a go based on the latest posts from Grimeydog, Haiden, morpwr and tennenbaum. I will try not to make it complex, and thank you all for all the constructive hints!

My previous settings were pretty much default, with only changes to Scoop, DRR/DRF, TF and global FFB. Scoop and DRR/DRF I had from that fancy calculator, TF+FF reduced to "compensate" the extra strength added with 8.0.

Previous posts from GrimeyDog mention using RAC to "reduce power", which I now changed from 0.94 to 0.86 (-10 clicks). Now I can have default TF=100, FF=75.
I was also a bit unhappy with the wheel center being too "sharp". When running 100 on all Fxyz forces, my wheel was getting every millimeter of movement, and that feeling got exaggerated by the scoop (which affects low forces) and DDR being too high. You can alleviate or compensate that with in-car masters, so reducing Fx and Fz will also do the trick. That is also strongly dependent on the wheel you are running IMO. Your Fanatec gear can't be compared with my modest setup! :p

Long story short, simply coping the global settings from someone else is not a 100% recipe or success if you don't respect the in-car masters, and although they can feel OK, one must match the other. My new settings were tuned with the principle of running in-car FFB completely default. The wheel is running with a decent level of FFB and never fades.

T300RS + T3PA Pro Pedals
From Default setup, my only changes now are:

Steering/Throttle/Brake/Clutch Deadzone: 0
DRR: 0.05 (+0.05)
RAC: 0.86 (-0.10)

Other T300ers out there, feedback welcome!

@GrimeyDog: Rouen-Les-Essarts is definitely a fabulous track! with complete default car-setup (fuel, suspension, everything), managed a 1:54.xxx in the Ruf-GT3, but some bit here is due to my driving, there are a few corners I still gotta take properly, especially the session after the tight U turn going uphill.

Keep racing!

GrimeyDog
07-02-2016, 19:35
Does anybody know:

Does pCars' FFB system "weights" the Mz force as a part of the Fxyzm matrix in terms of being also one of those tireforces happening at the tire contact patch (i.e., e.g. acc. to Pacejka...), OR does Mz represent the torque at the (imaginary) steering axis, that is very depending on caster and KPI?

I'm aware that the scrub radius as a result of caster and kingpin inclination has an impact to the tireforce Mz at tire contact patch as well, but as far as i know the absolute Mz force (at tire patch) is much less strong than Mz torque forces resulting from force translations where mainly Fy and Fx translate into a torque by the geometry force effects due to the scrub radius.

In other words: When i dial in Mz settings in the in-car FFB matrix, does the FFB system computates and weights into the mix the "weak" Mz forces of contact tire patch, or the "strong" Mz forces that happen at the steering axis, eventually transformed trough rod, rack and pinion to the final torque a the steering wheel rack?

Very much looking forward to an answer, since this could explain some FFB characteristics that i still don't understand. Especially how Fx and Fz "really" interact with Mz...

Good Question... My thoughts are that the "MZ" is adjusted or Calculated from the Value at which you set it by a predetermind amount that is set within the physics system...Even though the FFB system seems "Dynamic" there still has to be a set Base/Starting point for FFB Forces to Multiply or Divide from.... Hhhhmmm so maybe semi Dynamic...It is impossible for pcars to calculate the Value of all the Forces from 0... The Possibilities are way beyond what a regulare PC can Handle... The forces we feel are probabley based on data that has been compiled to reflect the theoretical forces that would be felt during a given event.... Yeah... i think that makes sense;)

morpwr
07-02-2016, 23:25
No doubt fov makes a big difference. When I use the fov calculator I always still go a little higher number like 8 or 10 but it's pretty spot on. Rocket bunny was a handful the one time I drove it. When I went left it went right.

Ive found the wheel settings are really important at this point not only for ffb reasons. Being able to feel and catch a car is really impacted by them. One thing ive found is a few of the settings grab the wheel and its not real obvious at first its even happening. Rag and rab both do it if set too high. Rab is more subtle but it has a big effect. The rocket bunny is actually pretty easy to drive now and a lot of fun. Unless sms makes a drastic change ill just be getting some practice time in finally. :D

morpwr
08-02-2016, 02:20
Does anybody know:

Does pCars' FFB system "weights" the Mz force as a part of the Fxyzm matrix in terms of being also one of those tireforces happening at the tire contact patch (i.e., e.g. acc. to Pacejka...), OR does Mz represent the torque at the (imaginary) steering axis, that is very depending on caster and KPI?

I'm aware that the scrub radius as a result of caster and kingpin inclination has an impact to the tireforce Mz at tire contact patch as well, but as far as i know the absolute Mz force (at tire patch) is much less strong than Mz torque forces resulting from force translations where mainly Fy and Fx translate into a torque by the geometry force effects due to the scrub radius.

In other words: When i dial in Mz settings in the in-car FFB matrix, does the FFB system computates and weights into the mix the "weak" Mz forces of contact tire patch, or the "strong" Mz forces that happen at the steering axis, eventually transformed trough rod, rack and pinion to the final torque a the steering wheel rack?

Very much looking forward to an answer, since this could explain some FFB characteristics that i still don't understand. Especially how Fx and Fz "really" interact with Mz...

That's a good question but I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to that for sure. I would guess that would be information sms doesn't really want to share.

PureMalt77
08-02-2016, 10:03
Ive found the wheel settings are really important at this point not only for ffb reasons. Being able to feel and catch a car is really impacted by them. One thing ive found is a few of the settings grab the wheel and its not real obvious at first its even happening. Rag and rab both do it if set too high. Rab is more subtle but it has a big effect. The rocket bunny is actually pretty easy to drive now and a lot of fun. Unless sms makes a drastic change ill just be getting some practice time in finally. :D

Do you have your settings posted somewhere I can give a try sometime?

PureMalt77
08-02-2016, 10:07
That's a good question but I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to that for sure. I would guess that would be information sms doesn't really want to share.

A guy posted this old thread (which unfortunately never got finished), but there is some explanation about the spindle parameters:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23124-FFB-Tuning-(my-thoughts-)

He's a PC user, so forget the initial assumptions about overall FFB+TF, as we know are completely unrealistic on consoles and more over, for TM gear.

tennenbaum
08-02-2016, 10:17
A guy posted this old thread (which unfortunately never got finished), but there is some explanation about the spindle parameters:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23124-FFB-Tuning-(my-thoughts-)

He's a PC user, so forget the initial assumptions about overall FFB+TF, as we know are completely unrealistic on consoles and more over, for TM gear.

Timos post is a great one, it helped me a lot to figure things out quicker. however, it doesn't really helps me to find out about that very specific matter, if Mz is tire force at patch, or torque of spindle... i'll keep digging.. ;-)

PureMalt77
08-02-2016, 10:40
Timos post is a great one, it helped me a lot to figure things out quicker. however, it doesn't really helps me to find out about that very specific matter, if Mz is tire force at patch, or torque of spindle... i'll keep digging.. ;-)

His post says:
Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing
I interpret this as pure tire force from contact patch. He says to zero all Fxyz first to try the effects of Mz (which I never tried), but seems to amplify the main Mz forces to the wheel, as you make certain axes weaker/stronger (just my theory)... So I would vote for your first choice: they all land in the same algorithm, just with different weights.

tennenbaum
08-02-2016, 11:18
His post says:
Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing
I interpret this as pure tire force from contact patch. He says to zero all Fxyz first to try the effects of Mz (which I never tried), but seems to amplify the main Mz forces to the wheel, as you make certain axes weaker/stronger (just my theory)... So I would vote for your first choice: they all land in the same algorithm, just with different weights.

hhm?? may be a driving test with isolated Mz while changing caster may give a hint... together with spindle arm, we might be capable to "track back" how it functions... Mz being the derived torque due to mechanical steering geometry (scrub radius) would be the "better" method of FFB computation imo.

morpwr
08-02-2016, 12:10
Do you have your settings posted somewhere I can give a try sometime?

Yes on oscarolim site with the car ffb settings

morpwr
08-02-2016, 12:13
Timos post is a great one, it helped me a lot to figure things out quicker. however, it doesn't really helps me to find out about that very specific matter, if Mz is tire force at patch, or torque of spindle... i'll keep digging.. ;-)

Yes it should be a lot easier to find not buried there. If someone on consoles doesnt look in the pc section they will never find it.

tennenbaum
08-02-2016, 13:23
His post says:
Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing
I interpret this as pure tire force from contact patch. He says to zero all Fxyz first to try the effects of Mz (which I never tried), but seems to amplify the main Mz forces to the wheel, as you make certain axes weaker/stronger (just my theory)... So I would vote for your first choice: they all land in the same algorithm, just with different weights.

When you isolate Mz (by turning Fx, Fy, Fz off) it seems to be amplified... as a matter of fact it doesn't get amplified, instead there is less counteracting Fz force. So what you feel at the wheel is Mz - Fz. (Except the Radbul... where Fz goes the other way round, as with Karts i assume, but didn't check on that yet).

GrimeyDog
08-02-2016, 13:44
Timos post is a great one, it helped me a lot to figure things out quicker. however, it doesn't really helps me to find out about that very specific matter, if Mz is tire force at patch, or torque of spindle... i'll keep digging.. ;-)

I use "Mz" 100... what i find is that when i Reduce "Mz" that the same Forces are there just at a Lower Strength.

I don't think "Mz" is Dynamic or self adjust between Different Cars or Car Classes... Ex: Gt3 and above "Mz" 100 feels Fine because they are Racing Cars and Have tight suspensions and Sharp Snappy Steering... So "Mz" 100 feels Natural to the car.

When i Race Older Muscle Cars(Mustang Etc) or Street Cars that don't have tight Race Car Suspensions... i find that i have to Reduce the "Mz" according to How Much Body Roll the Car Has to make it feel Natural to the Car.

Conclusion is "Mz" is a Static Force that is being Calculated by a Predetermind set # imbeded in the FFB physics system...

My thoughts are that it is Calculated from where you set "Mz" ex: 100 a pre set # the Contact patch the Spindle Forces because The Strength of the "Mz" varies according to the Road Surface....

ex: when i get 1 tire off the Ground the wheel gets light according to which tire lost Grip.

Corner Speed ex: i can feel the "Mz" as Tire Chatter in High speed corners Letting Me feel the balance between Tire Grip and Tire slip.

My Summation "Mz" is

1)Dynamic in the sense that it calculates from where you set it.

2)Semi Dynamic because it Must first be set to taste in order to produce feel according to your Perception of what "Mz" is supposed to feel like.

Conclusion "Mz"= Semi Dynamic Force

Edit: IMO this Semi Dynamic "Mz" is the best way for SMS to have done it because every 1 has a Different perception of what"Mz" Should feel Like and also Due to the Fact that All Wheels will Not cope with High "Mz" settings the same its best that this Force be user defined based on Wheel and personal FFB "Mz" feel and taste.

SGETI
08-02-2016, 15:26
Yes on oscarolim site with the car ffb settings

Trying your new numbers and I have a question regarding Deadzone Removal Falloff. You state 0.19. the scale does not go to .19.

As other have done it is the number of clicks from far left. Is this correct? Put the scale all the way to the left and then go 19 clicks to the right?

morpwr
08-02-2016, 16:13
Trying your new numbers and I have a question regarding Deadzone Removal Falloff. You state 0.19. the scale does not go to .19.

As other have done it is the number of clicks from far left. Is this correct? Put the scale all the way to the left and then go 19 clicks to the right?

Last one before it switches to .20 but I will recheck tonight when I get home.

spacepadrille
08-02-2016, 18:09
I think (I'm sure) it's 0.019 or 19 clicks from left ;-)

morpwr
08-02-2016, 20:40
http://cdn3.volusion.com/yfzaj.qdyju/v/vspfiles/photos/0PS4-NA1LED-1.jpg

New toy:D

GrimeyDog
08-02-2016, 21:55
Edit: CSW v2 65 to 75 on wheel FFB...feel free to experiment to find your FFB sweet spot.

Small changes for 8.0
TF 1.00
RAG 1.00
Fx 6.00

GM FFB 35

what FFB missing link??? its all really coming together!!!
After i added the Tad bit of Fx to My tweek the TF 1.00 and RAG 1.00 Feel spot on for Me!!!

Edit: also did 5+ hours racing yesterday and wheel temp never rose above 95*F with RAC set at 92!!! room temp was 75*F to 78*F

GrimeyDog
08-02-2016, 21:58
I want 1!!! How much and where to order it??? i will order that when i order my CSP Hand brake!!! Yesss!!! I have the shifter now so i might as well go the full route:yes:

Can you use a button Box on the XB1??? thats the 1 that really needs extra buttons the Most??? either way i still want 1...LOL.

morpwr
08-02-2016, 22:23
I want 1!!! How much and where to order it??? i will order that when i order my CSP Hand brake!!! Yesss!!! I have the shifter now so i might as well go the full route:yes:

Can you use a button Box on the XB1??? thats the 1 that really needs extra buttons the Most??? either way i still want 1...LOL.

Oh you saw that.lol It was 258 and yep shifter is next for me too. I just figured I don't want to run out of buttons and I really was waiting for the rotary encoders. The leds are a really nice touch too. I don't see why you couldn't as long as a keyboard works on the xb1. It came from ignition controls and the owner is a really nice guy to deal with. If you order one don't forget the labels he has some nice options.

On a side did anyone see the new cars coming? Corvette and caddy? Cant wait for this months dlc!!!!!!

GrimeyDog
08-02-2016, 23:58
ok ok... so CS hand brake ordered!!! 2 day shipping it will be here next week for my vacation!!! wooohoooo

Hmmmm gonna hold off on buttom box until i know for sure i need it...only if XB1 supports it the definitley i will get 1...thinking about that RS1 play seat or the new N1 rig!!!

morpwr
09-02-2016, 01:41
ok ok... so CS hand brake ordered!!! 2 day shipping it will be here next week for my vacation!!! wooohoooo

Hmmmm gonna hold off on buttom box until i know for sure i need it...only if XB1 supports it the definitley i will get 1...thinking about that RS1 play seat or the new N1 rig!!!

Thanks for the invite. That was interesting for my first online race ever.lol You first 3 cars where fast!!! I totally blew the first corner but once I calmed down I just started turning laps. Takes some getting used to coming off a corner and having a ghost car parked across it. Definitely different when you have guys stopping to wait for each other in the middle of the track. But id definitely do it again. I could see were that would be a lot of fun with guys you know you can trust.

morpwr
09-02-2016, 01:56
I think (I'm sure) it's 0.019 or 19 clicks from left ;-)

Good thing youre paying attention. Ill have to correct that.

morpwr
09-02-2016, 02:03
ok ok... so CS hand brake ordered!!! 2 day shipping it will be here next week for my vacation!!! wooohoooo

Hmmmm gonna hold off on buttom box until i know for sure i need it...only if XB1 supports it the definitley i will get 1...thinking about that RS1 play seat or the new N1 rig!!!

The n1 looks nice. I like the fact it has mounts for anything you could think of needing.

GrimeyDog
09-02-2016, 02:08
Thanks for the invite. That was interesting for my first online race ever.lol You first 3 cars where fast!!! I totally blew the first corner but once I calmed down I just started turning laps. Takes some getting used to coming off a corner and having a ghost car parked across it. Definitely different when you have guys stopping to wait for each other in the middle of the track. But id definitely do it again. I could see were that would be a lot of fun with guys you know you can trust.

Thanks for joining... That Race was a Good ... You faired well and held your own!!! We were up front Flying!!! Its all just a Battle of Nerves.. Once you Realize that most of the time the Car in back cant catch you unless you make a Mistake... Thats when i usually make a Mistake and screw up the Race... LOL...just Pace your self and keep pushing... all 3 of us made big Mistakes... I just couldnt Focus... When i saw your name behind me i double checked 1st spin out... LOL... I spun out 2x for No good Reason... Maybe its the Cough medicine ...Oooh yeah the Good Stuff!!!... Still got 3rd but blew 1st... Im Not used to the Tire Model the Grip seems different gotta push on diff parts of the track now... Sigh...one day they will stop changing stuff...But truth is i was probabley just sucking on a bad Race Night... LOL...FFB felt Spot on but just a tad Heavy weight wise... Hhhmm im going to lower it at the wheel.

Great Racing with you... I have a list of Clean fast people we xan make private lobbys and run when ever yall are Ready... I have enough Clean fast people.to fill a room up.

GrimeyDog
09-02-2016, 02:20
The n1 looks nice. I like the fact it has mounts for anything you could think of needing.

Looks Really Nice but I dont want to pay $1,500 for it + tax + Shipping ... Thats just too Much.... Which ever drops price first... 1) Obutto Revolution ( 2) RS1 ( 3) N1...Not likely to drop in price though so im not counting on this 1...

for $1,500 + Tax + Shipping Thats the Obutto and 3/4ths the budget on a New Gaming PC... Economics 101

morpwr
09-02-2016, 02:24
Thanks for joining... That Race was a Good ... You faired well and held your own!!! We were up front Flying!!! Its all just a Battle of Nerves.. Once you Realize that most of the time the Car in back cant catch you unless you make a Mistake... Thats when i usually make a Mistake and screw up the Race... LOL...just Pace your self and keep pushing... all 3 of us made big Mistakes... I just couldnt Focus... When i saw your name behind me i double checked 1st spin out... LOL... I spun out 2x for No good Reason... Maybe its the Cough medicine ...Oooh yeah the Good Stuff!!!... Still got 3rd but blew 1st... Im Not used to the Tire Model the Grip seems different gotta push on diff parts of the track now... Sigh...one day they will stop changing stuff...But truth is i was probabley just sucking on a bad Race Night... LOL...FFB felt Spot on but just a tad Heavy weight wise... Hhhmm im going to lower it at the wheel.

Great Racing with you... I have a list of Clean fast people we xan make private lobbys and run when ever yall are Ready... I have enough Clean fast people.to fill a room up.

I'm game like I said had a good time and I wont get faster without practice and faster people. Just tried not to be that guy in my first online race. Other than my first corner screw up it was pretty clean. Agreed I hope they don't make anymore big changes to the tire model. I haven't touched any settings in a week now and have just been trying different cars and tracks. There are a lot of really good tracks and cars. Cant wait for the vette and caddy. Is it dlc week yet?

morpwr
09-02-2016, 12:07
Looks Really Nice but I dont want to pay $1,500 for it + tax + Shipping ... Thats just too Much.... Which ever drops price first... 1) Obutto Revolution ( 2) RS1 ( 3) N1...Not likely to drop in price though so im not counting on this 1...

for $1,500 + Tax + Shipping Thats the Obutto and 3/4ths the budget on a New Gaming PC... Economics 101

Yeah that is a lot of money. Did you see the motion rig farther down? That looks a lot more doable for the average home guy. I wish I had a gaming pc.lol

tennenbaum
09-02-2016, 12:54
I use "Mz" 100... what i find is that when i Reduce "Mz" that the same Forces are there just at a Lower Strength.

I don't think "Mz" is Dynamic or self adjust between Different Cars or Car Classes... Ex: Gt3 and above "Mz" 100 feels Fine because they are Racing Cars and Have tight suspensions and Sharp Snappy Steering... So "Mz" 100 feels Natural to the car.

When i Race Older Muscle Cars(Mustang Etc) or Street Cars that don't have tight Race Car Suspensions... i find that i have to Reduce the "Mz" according to How Much Body Roll the Car Has to make it feel Natural to the Car.

Conclusion is "Mz" is a Static Force that is being Calculated by a Predetermind set # imbeded in the FFB physics system...

My thoughts are that it is Calculated from where you set "Mz" ex: 100 a pre set # the Contact patch the Spindle Forces because The Strength of the "Mz" varies according to the Road Surface....

ex: when i get 1 tire off the Ground the wheel gets light according to which tire lost Grip.

Corner Speed ex: i can feel the "Mz" as Tire Chatter in High speed corners Letting Me feel the balance between Tire Grip and Tire slip.

My Summation "Mz" is

1)Dynamic in the sense that it calculates from where you set it.

2)Semi Dynamic because it Must first be set to taste in order to produce feel according to your Perception of what "Mz" is supposed to feel like.

Conclusion "Mz"= Semi Dynamic Force

Edit: IMO this Semi Dynamic "Mz" is the best way for SMS to have done it because every 1 has a Different perception of what"Mz" Should feel Like and also Due to the Fact that All Wheels will Not cope with High "Mz" settings the same its best that this Force be user defined based on Wheel and personal FFB "Mz" feel and taste.

i think, my question if Mz represents the tire force at contact patch, or is the derived torgue force delivered at spindle affected by caster and kingpin inclination, got answered. after a couple of tests, i feel i can say for sure, Mz is the tire force. ( so what...! that's why sms called it tire force... :rolleyes:! ...well not everything with pCars is what it looks like... ;-)

I was interested in that question because Mz often behaves weird to say the least (you can experience it very nicely when you isolate Mz by setting Fxyz to 0, and SoP scale to 0 !, and just keep Mz). So i found this jewel of a post (thanks to jtw62074, who seems to be a developer of "RC sim" game).

http://https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334 (https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334)

with this rare diagram. check out the nasty behavior of Mz... Though please note that these graphs were recorded with 0 caster. A positive caster (and kingpin inclination) can shift Mz curve in a way that it doesn't cross the horizontal axis, however the interesting slope in general will still happen...

227119

That explained a lot to me. And filled blank spaces i still had and weren't answered by Pacejka's curve as you usually see it.
But to be fully capable to interprete it, i had to know for sure if Mz really is the tirforce...

if you're interested in a ( lengthy:smiley_simmons:) in depth discusion about the topic feel free to get bored here:

I asked LogiForce in the GTplanet forum, since i found his posts always of profound knowledge, also talking about not so common details.
What shall i say: he came back with great insights...

http://https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175 (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224899
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224942
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11225133

there you may also find some new?, possibly controversial, findings and discussion about if Fz... outcome is not clear yet. But when you recently wondered about the unusual driving behavior of the Mazda Radbul you may might be interested in the a.m. posts.

i keep you posted :D :D

PureMalt77
09-02-2016, 13:37
When you isolate Mz (by turning Fx, Fy, Fz off) it seems to be amplified... as a matter of fact it doesn't get amplified, instead there is less counteracting Fz force. So what you feel at the wheel is Mz - Fz. (Except the Radbul... where Fz goes the other way round, as with Karts i assume, but didn't check on that yet).


i think, my question if Mz represents the tire force at contact patch, or is the derived torgue force delivered at spindle affected by caster and kingpin inclination, got answered. after a couple of tests, i feel i can say for sure, Mz is the tire force. ( so what...! that's why sms called it tire force... :rolleyes:! ...well not everything with pCars is what it looks like... ;-)

i was interested in that question because Mz often behaves weird to say the least. so i found this post http://https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334 with this rare diagram http://www.performancesimulations.com/files/tire3.JPG that explained a lot to me. but to be fully capable to interprete it, i had to know for sure if Mz really is the tirforce...

if you're interested in a ( lengthy:smiley_simmons:) in depth discusion about the topic feel free to get bored here:
http://https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175

there you may also find some new?, possibly controversial?, findings and discussion about if Fz... outcome is not clear yet. i keep you posted :D :D

I think I need translation for regular human-beings!

So, if Mz is pure tire force, and from your previous test, Fz steal forces from Mz, means that for full contact patch feel we should zero Fz completely, leaving space for the other axes? (Fx for wheel-center resistance, Fy for wheel drag when turning?).
That would go against my theory that Fz possibly represent the additional weight applied to the tire against the track... from that principle, they should add one another...
Make sense what I'm saying??? :confused:

inthebagbud
09-02-2016, 15:20
i think, my question if Mz represents the tire force at contact patch, or is the derived torgue force delivered at spindle affected by caster and kingpin inclination, got answered. after a couple of tests, i feel i can say for sure, Mz is the tire force. ( so what...! that's why sms called it tire force... :rolleyes:! ...well not everything with pCars is what it looks like... ;-)

I was interested in that question because Mz often behaves weird to say the least (you can experience it very nicely when you isolate Mz by setting Fxyz to 0, and SoP scale to 0 !, and just keep Mz). So i found this jewel of a post (thanks to jtw62074, who seems to be a developer of "RC sim" game).

http://https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334 (https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334)

with this rare diagram. check out the nasty behavior of Mz... Though please note that these graphs were recorded with 0 caster. A positive caster (and kingpin inclination) can shift Mz curve in a way that it doesn't cross the horizontal axis, however the interesting slope in general will still happen...

227119

That explained a lot to me. And filled blank spaces i still had and weren't answered by Pacejka's curve as you usually see it.
But to be fully capable to interprete it, i had to know for sure if Mz really is the tirforce...

if you're interested in a ( lengthy:smiley_simmons:) in depth discusion about the topic feel free to get bored here:

I asked LogiForce in the GTplanet forum, since i found his posts always of profound knowledge, also talking about not so common details.
What shall i say: he came back with great insights...

http://https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175 (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224899
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224942
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11225133

there you may also find some new?, possibly controversial, findings and discussion about if Fz... outcome is not clear yet. But when you recently wondered about the unusual driving behavior of the Mazda Radbul you may might be interested in the a.m. posts.

i keep you posted :D :D

I have absolutely no idea what all that means, my head hurts and I am not sure I want to understand it , life was so much simpler playing mario karts

Seriously does all that really make that much difference in the game

:victorious:Oh and I salute tennenbaum if that actually translates into english but to me is just like reading vulcanise :applause:

tennenbaum
09-02-2016, 15:25
I think I need translation for regular human-beings!

So, if Mz is pure tire force, and from your previous test, Fz steal forces from Mz, means that for full contact patch feel we should zero Fz completely, leaving space for the other axes? (Fx for wheel-center resistance, Fy for wheel drag when turning?).
That would go against my theory that Fz possibly represent the additional weight applied to the tire against the track... from that principle, they should add one another...
Make sense what I'm saying??? :confused:

possibly i opened a can of worms...

Yes, Fz "steals" from all the other forces, because with almost all cars (except Radbul and 5-6 other cars) Fz acts "inverse".

That "inverse" direction of Fz might be a non-locical behavior under some premisses. But those premisses might be wrong! That's what the many posts are about that i referred to. However, and i'm very carful what i'm saying here, there is some reason to believe that the Fz effect could have been set the other way round as well (not inverse), and so possibly could have worked as well, while being more logical, see my example with the kart more at the bottom of my post.

Now, since it was like that from the beginning we got all used of how Fz acts, and kind of conditioned ourselves to "read" the effect of Fz in a way that it suits us. It's also possible that the devs were aware of that Fz kind of acts not very logical, but found out by try and error, that the way it works offers nice possibilities to shape the other forces in the mix. That said, because Fz is the only force that you can use as as subtrahend. Instead of building up different layers of forces all directing in the same FFB torque direction, while not having a "differentiator".

I know this sounds all terribly "over the top".

And i feel obliged to say, the "research" that i did here is not so much of practical use or importance. It's rather for those who can't stop wondering about pCars physics, that are mostly great, but are sometimes really hard to understand.

And FFB became very good with patch 8.0 anyway. Even more, it wouldn't make much sense to "flip" all Fz tweaks, because after so many months of getting used to it, the new driving behavior would drive everybody away from the game. I don't want that!

BTW: How tricky the Fz issue really is, shows when you take a look at the Radbul. The radbul was actually delivered with a "positive" Fz phase. (Technically due to good reasons...) But the audience immediately complained about its strange driving behavior. So, afaik, JS changed with his tweaker for the RAdbul its Fz phase back to "normal"..., So he definitely changed back what the lead vehicle designer Casey Ringley even argued, 'why the Radbul got a positive Fz phase".

But what they did with the Radbul eventually raised inevitably the question, why the heck acts Fz all of a sudden differently with that car, than with most other cars...

That topic leads to many more questions: Did they use the Radbul to test if they could finally flip Fz... of all cars? It's a known weakness of the (great) pCars physics that the oversteer behavior (aka "pendelum effect") that means it's hard to catch a car's rear when getting loose, is so hard to handle. Possibly even unrealistic...
If you think it through, it may look as if the way the "inverse" Fz doesn't really help if it comes to this weakness, since Fz pulls the car even more into the corner when weight-shift (delta Fz) sets in.

There are even more signs that there might be a flaw quite deep buried in the code, that might be the reason why Fz acts inverse, while imo is supposed to work the other way round. If there is an issue with the scrub radius, that would explain why other physics effects (beside FFB) do not work as you'd expect. E.G. check out the braking and accelerating while being with with one pair of the tires on the green, while being on the track with the others... Most of the cars behave wrong or do react too weak under such conditions.

Getting back to your question:

Yes, you're right, Fz represents the additional weight applied to the tire against the track ...when weight-shifts happen, and of course they shall have an impact on all other tireforces at contact patch as well as on the steering in general.

But who said, that such weight-shifts that usually put more load on the outside front tire shall lead automatically to an effect that the steering wheel turns into the corner, instead of pushing against it, as e.g. Fy does?

Test it with one of the karts.

Everybody who ever drove a kart knows the more load you get on the outer front tire the heavier your wheel gets. Heavier means you have to really fight the wheel since it pushes against your steering direction pretty fiercely. If you have a look at a kart's caster and kingpin inclination (both together = scrub radius), it's obvious how much "positive" the scrub radius is, therefore due to geometry and acting higher acting forces at the outer tire (than at the inner tire) the steering wheel must torque against the direction of the corner.

Long story short: Fz in pCars FFB acts wrong with the karts... And may be - less obviously - also wrong with the other cars.

Again, this is a much minor issue as it looks here, because we got all used to it...

And frankly, it doesn't matter so much if i run my FFB with Grimeys settings, or the patch 8.00 defaults, bmanics settings or my own "designed" settings - my lap times do not change as much as this FFB conversation would make you think it should ;) I'm still slow... :cool:.

Off course if you wanna run a champion lap time everything comes into play, but then FFB is just one factor among many others. I still believe that everybody should set his settings to his own best taste. And some - like me - just like to fiddle around with it. My kind of Sudoku...:D

One of my reason actually why i wanted to know more about the FFB system was because i was fascinated by how adaptive our brain is:

it's less important that all FFB effects are logical, but it's of great importance that our brain gets fed by as much informations as possible! That's where the fun and the mastership of handling cars with pCars sets in.

Just out of curiosity i put in GT6 to compare it, after i didn't touch GT6 for about 1-2 years. And i always loved it (because of its 3D... and since i grew up with it :-) But then I was shocked how totally dull, flat and uninformative the GT6 FFB is. It wasn't fun anymore at all. Insofar we're really spoiled by pCars FFB and i hope they keep the flexibility to customize with pCars 2!

PureMalt77
09-02-2016, 15:41
You said it all: LAP TIMES!

After a while testing different FFB settings, I feel you get a placebo effect. You might think you shaved some time due to FFB or "feel", where in fact the more you drive, the better you get, suddenly you discover you could take a corner differently, for instance after watching a ghost or someone else's lap on Youtube.
Already happened to me, I took 0,5 from a lap after an FFB change, then reverted it back and there goes another 0,3s :rolleyes:

GrimeyDog has a few laps posted. Only true way to test is driving under very same conditions (track/weather temperature, car setup, at best in the telemetry view), being the only single different the FFB. Then by watching the lap you can try to imitate it in terms of breaking/acceleration points, race line, and really compare how much slow of faster you are because you feel more or feel less...

I did enjoy the game a lot lately, and decided to give another go in the whole FFB thingy after 8.0 - which has been valuable. But is time to just race again for a while... :D

tennenbaum
09-02-2016, 16:05
I have absolutely no idea what all that means, my head hurts and I am not sure I want to understand it , life was so much simpler playing mario karts

Seriously does all that really make that much difference in the game

:victorious:Oh and I salute tennenbaum if that actually translates into english but to me is just like reading vulcanise :applause:

No it doesn't make much difference!! see the post that i wrote in the meantime. :D
On the other hand, considering that i never played pCars with a wheel until a few months ago, and taking into consideration that i'm equipped rather amateur-ish, and seldom have the time to play, the "physics of racing" may have helped me to see the rear lights of you guys at least for half a round, instead of spinning out already at start :D:D

tennenbaum
09-02-2016, 16:09
You said it all: LAP TIMES!

After a while testing different FFB settings, I feel you get a placebo effect. You might think you shaved some time due to FFB or "feel", where in fact the more you drive, the better you get, suddenly you discover you could take a corner differently, for instance after watching a ghost or someone else's lap on Youtube.
Already happened to me, I took 0,5 from a lap after an FFB change, then reverted it back and there goes another 0,3s :rolleyes:

GrimeyDog has a few laps posted. Only true way to test is driving under very same conditions (track/weather temperature, car setup, at best in the telemetry view), being the only single different the FFB. Then by watching the lap you can try to imitate it in terms of breaking/acceleration points, race line, and really compare how much slow of faster you are because you feel more or feel less...

I did enjoy the game a lot lately, and decided to give another go in the whole FFB thingy after 8.0 - which has been valuable. But is time to just race again for a while... :D


So true what you say!!

inthebagbud
09-02-2016, 18:40
No it doesn't make much difference!! see the post that i wrote in the meantime. :D
On the other hand, considering that i never played pCars with a wheel until a few months ago, and taking into consideration that i'm equipped rather amateur-ish, and seldom have the time to play, the "physics of racing" may have helped me to see the rear lights of you guys at least for half a round, instead of spinning out already at start :D:D

tennenbaum - hope you didn't take my post the wrong way I was actually complimenting you on the way you can discuss and write about the FFB - if I didn't know any better I would have thought you where SMS in disguise:confused:

Its just when I read all this technical stuff I kind of glaze over and think what the hell - this is a racing game and I know they some times say sim - but it is aimed at the general public and not the racing drivers who need a sim to practice kind of player - the ffb just needs to be a little easier to set up or at least better explained in left right up down front back forces and not as an extract from a science journal


Your point about FFB is correct and I have stated before that I can pretty much run within .5 of a lap time with most FFB settings and in the end it mainly comes down to a bit of style and skill but PRACTICE PRACTICE and more PRACTICE as there is no way I can get to any of Grimeys times and that is not FFB related

I just wish I had a PS4 to have a run with you guys

tennenbaum
09-02-2016, 19:04
tennenbaum - hope you didn't take my post the wrong way I was actually complimenting you on the way you can discuss and write about the FFB - if I didn't know any better I would have thought you where SMS in disguise:confused:

Its just when I read all this technical stuff I kind of glaze over and think what the hell - this is a racing game and I know they some times say sim - but it is aimed at the general public and not the racing drivers who need a sim to practice kind of player - the ffb just needs to be a little easier to set up or at least better explained in left right up down front back forces and not as an extract from a science journal


Your point about FFB is correct and I have stated before that I can pretty much run within .5 of a lap time with most FFB settings and in the end it mainly comes down to a bit of style and skill but PRACTICE PRACTICE and more PRACTICE as there is no way I can get to any of Grimeys times and that is not FFB related

I just wish I had a PS4 to have a run with you guys

I didn't take your post the wrong way at all! lol. I guess i was just trying to pamper myself knowing that i spend too much time today with that Mz/Fz thing, instead of doing some laps chasing Grimey effortlessly :D and forget about it :D

Fight-Test
09-02-2016, 19:36
I'm having a conversation in another thread about the assist restrictions not working. Are you guys able to turn on any assist in multiplayer regardless of room restrictions?

Haiden
09-02-2016, 20:02
You said it all: LAP TIMES!

After a while testing different FFB settings, I feel you get a placebo effect. You might think you shaved some time due to FFB or "feel", where in fact the more you drive, the better you get, suddenly you discover you could take a corner differently, for instance after watching a ghost or someone else's lap on Youtube.
Already happened to me, I took 0,5 from a lap after an FFB change, then reverted it back and there goes another 0,3s :rolleyes:

GrimeyDog has a few laps posted. Only true way to test is driving under very same conditions (track/weather temperature, car setup, at best in the telemetry view), being the only single different the FFB. Then by watching the lap you can try to imitate it in terms of breaking/acceleration points, race line, and really compare how much slow of faster you are because you feel more or feel less...

I did enjoy the game a lot lately, and decided to give another go in the whole FFB thingy after 8.0 - which has been valuable. But is time to just race again for a while... :D

Totally agree. That's why I test on Silverstone, because I've driven that track to death. I know all my lines and braking points and can be freakishly consistent. But when I'm tuning/testing FFB, I don't like to use braking points, because I think that invites the placebo effect. If you're just driving by rote and being too mechanical about it--at the tree, brake hard for .5 seconds, drop to third, then turn in, quarter throttle to the apex, then back on the power--then you invite the placebo effect, especially if you're just fine tuning the FFB and only making subtle changes. But I'm so familiar with Silverstone that when I'm testing FFB, I can basically drive and corner by feel and visual depth, and the variance allows me to feel and experience the corners in different ways, which forces me to focus on and react to what I'm feeling in the wheel, instead of just hitting my marks. I also turn off the HUD completely, though, because I just want to feel the car and don't want any distractions. You can't be looking at the telemetry and assessing the fine detail in the feel of the wheel at the same time. Our brains simply don't work that way. I focus on the feel first. If it feels good, and my drive is improving, then I bring up the telemetry and check the FFB. If that checks out, then I start driving methodically and on mark to see if I can match or beat my best lap. If I'm consistent or better, then I start pushing to see if I can squeeze more out of the new tune.

Since 8.0, I haven't found any real gains in the global settings, beyond the few adjustments I've made to Scoop K/R and RAC. Switching the CSW-V2 to DRI=3 was the last change I made that had a substantial impact on my lap times. I'm done messing with the global. Right now, I'm focused on the in-car Fx and Fy scales--just lowering them a bit to give the other scales more room to be felt. But, to be honest, while skimming some off of these scales does make the wheel feel better, it doesn't have any real impact on my lap times in practice sessions where the driving is sterile and predictable. But the small improvements in feel will be more valuable when I'm on the track with other cars and can't always ride the prime line. :)

dawgpaws11
09-02-2016, 21:25
Funny that you brought this up today. Over the weekend i had a chance to isolate all the forces, as I am sure that many of you have done, so that i could try to concentrate on the in car settings since patch 8.0 have rectified much of the global setting debate.

When i isolated, Fz (confused the hell out of me for a while that vertical was labeled Fz instead of Fy.. i mean i know i get that it is looking down on the tire, but i have always associated "y" with height/vertical.. ahh maybe it is just me.. but i digress) pulling into the corner, countering the normal centering effect, while an isolated Fy seemed to be what i had been missing.. making the steer heavier has you turned more into high speed corners.. Mz to me felt like the initial turn in wheel weight as after the first 20 to 30 degrees it is gone which is where it seems Fy takes over... also makes the center tighter...Fx you cant really feel isolated but am assuming that it would make a difference in breaking/acceleration when working with Mz. Sop Lat and Diff couldnt really feel a iso, but i am starting to learn that you need a little bit of one or the other.. yes it helps a bit in high speed corners, but where i see the biggest difference is in the low speed corners, such as the hairpin at hock gp.

Anyway i have always had a problem that wheel didnt get stronger with high speed corners and then coming out of them, it sticking instead of centering quickly as it should.. So after isolating the forces, it seemed to me that Fz has always been way too high, and much like Tennenbaum said, should be reversed ( I havent driven the Red Bull yet, but will try when later tonight for sure)..so i started to lower the Fz way down and i personally like it so much more.. to me it feels so much more realistic.. JS settings to me now seem like the Fz values should be Fy, and vice versa.. i tried with his classic values and really liked it.. i dont know just a thought, but would be interested if someone else tried and shared their thoughts.

Anyway thanks tennenbaum for the post.. really like reading your explanations.

Hope to get to run with you guys soon

inthebagbud
09-02-2016, 22:10
I'm having a conversation in another thread about the assist restrictions not working. Are you guys able to turn on any assist in multiplayer regardless of room restrictions?

Multiplayer what's that ....... thought this was an FFB simulation...... oh no there is more to this game than trying to acheive level 1 in ffb testing .....:sorrow:

morpwr
09-02-2016, 22:38
I didn't take your post the wrong way at all! lol. I guess i was just trying to pamper myself knowing that i spend too much time today with that Mz/Fz thing, instead of doing some laps chasing Grimey effortlessly :D and forget about it :D

Good luck I ran with him last night. Hes fast. lol I think I was few seconds off those guys but I was ok with that for my first time. I was more worried about wrecking someone probably too much actually. Online definitely takes some getting used to.

morpwr
09-02-2016, 22:39
Multiplayer what's that ....... thought this was an FFB simulation...... oh no there is more to this game than trying to acheive level 1 in ffb testing .....:sorrow:

Got my first taste of that last night:D

Haiden
09-02-2016, 23:20
Funny that you brought this up today. Over the weekend i had a chance to isolate all the forces, as I am sure that many of you have done, so that i could try to concentrate on the in car settings since patch 8.0 have rectified much of the global setting debate.

When i isolated, Fz (confused the hell out of me for a while that vertical was labeled Fz instead of Fy.. i mean i know i get that it is looking down on the tire, but i have always associated "y" with height/vertical.. ahh maybe it is just me.. but i digress) pulling into the corner, countering the normal centering effect, while an isolated Fy seemed to be what i had been missing.. making the steer heavier has you turned more into high speed corners.. Mz to me felt like the initial turn in wheel weight as after the first 20 to 30 degrees it is gone which is where it seems Fy takes over... also makes the center tighter...Fx you cant really feel isolated but am assuming that it would make a difference in breaking/acceleration when working with Mz. Sop Lat and Diff couldnt really feel a iso, but i am starting to learn that you need a little bit of one or the other.. yes it helps a bit in high speed corners, but where i see the biggest difference is in the low speed corners, such as the hairpin at hock gp.

Anyway i have always had a problem that wheel didnt get stronger with high speed corners and then coming out of them, it sticking instead of centering quickly as it should.. So after isolating the forces, it seemed to me that Fz has always been way too high, and much like Tennenbaum said, should be reversed ( I havent driven the Red Bull yet, but will try when later tonight for sure)..so i started to lower the Fz way down and i personally like it so much more.. to me it feels so much more realistic.. JS settings to me now seem like the Fz values should be Fy, and vice versa.. i tried with his classic values and really liked it.. i dont know just a thought, but would be interested if someone else tried and shared their thoughts.

Anyway thanks tennenbaum for the post.. really like reading your explanations.

Hope to get to run with you guys soon

I can't remember my exact experience when I isolated the forces, but I remember that Fz was a strange one. It didn't feel anything like I thought it would. It's always been said to be curbs and bumps, but when isolated, I felt no road forces--curbs, bumps, or even in the grass. You have to be careful with Fy, though, because it's very strong and will drown out other forces if you're not careful, and then you won't have much dynamic range when cornering.

GrimeyDog
09-02-2016, 23:33
You said it all: LAP TIMES!

After a while testing different FFB settings, I feel you get a placebo effect. You might think you shaved some time due to FFB or "feel", where in fact the more you drive, the better you get, suddenly you discover you could take a corner differently, for instance after watching a ghost or someone else's lap on Youtube.
Already happened to me, I took 0,5 from a lap after an FFB change, then reverted it back and there goes another 0,3s :rolleyes:

GrimeyDog has a few laps posted. Only true way to test is driving under very same conditions (track/weather temperature, car setup, at best in the telemetry view), being the only single different the FFB. Then by watching the lap you can try to imitate it in terms of breaking/acceleration points, race line, and really compare how much slow of faster you are because you feel more or feel less...

I did enjoy the game a lot lately, and decided to give another go in the whole FFB thingy after 8.0 - which has been valuable. But is time to just race again for a while... :D




Your point about FFB is correct and I have stated before that I can pretty much run within .5 of a lap time with most FFB settings and in the end it mainly comes down to a bit of style and skill but PRACTICE PRACTICE and more PRACTICE as there is no way I can get to any of Grimeys times and that is not FFB related

I just wish I had a PS4 to have a run with you guys

you can get those lap times:yes: its as you said practice practice practice... first you Need to make sure you have good road feel in your wheel... I use watkins glen of course.. LOL... i judge my tweek road feel on a few factors but try this go to watkins Glen short just because its short and easy to test on... When you Cross the start Finish line can you Feel the paint in the Road??? Yup you should be able to feel that... i can clearly feel it with my tweek... that's the subtle road feel test...your going to feel the bigger bumps any way so its mainly about the subtle road feel because it provides great info about Road surface and what the car is doing. Then you just dial in your wheel weight that your comfortable with and bingo your ready to go.

with Good Road feel it will become second nature the car and the track become predictable..Sort of like driving down the same street every day but there is a Huge pot Hole!!! after you drive down the block enough its just second nature to swerve to avoid it... subconsciously you anticipate it and react accordingly...
as i said on the first page the road does Not change you just have to be familiar with your FFB and trust what its telling you and react from instinct because you already know when the wheel dips like this vibrates like that then gets light on a certain part of the track that means ??? Tap the brakes/counter steer/ Throttle steer... That's the info that Good FFB Give you... but you have to trust it. at this point My FFB Feels Natural to Me...im just balancing out the overall wheel weight since 8.0


we are at the final frontier of the pcars FFB Mystery!!! its a wrap... I cant explain all the whats and whys/ The Mechanics of the FFB System...im going to leave that to tennenbaum... LOL but i can tell you how to put it together to get Good Feel... you can make My Exact tweek fit any wheel by first setting the proper GM FFB for the wheel then balancing the RAC to set the strength of FFB effects according to personal taste (+ = more effect feel/ - = Less Feel). The FFB Mystery is over???
http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/507/5074039/2812447-1955486851-tumbl.gif (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gamespot.com%2Fforums%2Fsystem-wars-314159282%2Fis-the-age-of-quick-time-events-almost-over-31879360%2F&bvm=bv.113943665,bs.2,d.cGc&psig=AFQjCNFVW-hbCBpImPOpxfI6-0DQibyEIg&ust=1455147055175370)

morpwr
10-02-2016, 02:11
i think, my question if Mz represents the tire force at contact patch, or is the derived torgue force delivered at spindle affected by caster and kingpin inclination, got answered. after a couple of tests, i feel i can say for sure, Mz is the tire force. ( so what...! that's why sms called it tire force... :rolleyes:! ...well not everything with pCars is what it looks like... ;-)

I was interested in that question because Mz often behaves weird to say the least (you can experience it very nicely when you isolate Mz by setting Fxyz to 0, and SoP scale to 0 !, and just keep Mz). So i found this jewel of a post (thanks to jtw62074, who seems to be a developer of "RC sim" game).

http://https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334 (https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/124334#post124334)

with this rare diagram. check out the nasty behavior of Mz... Though please note that these graphs were recorded with 0 caster. A positive caster (and kingpin inclination) can shift Mz curve in a way that it doesn't cross the horizontal axis, however the interesting slope in general will still happen...

227119

That explained a lot to me. And filled blank spaces i still had and weren't answered by Pacejka's curve as you usually see it.
But to be fully capable to interprete it, i had to know for sure if Mz really is the tirforce...

if you're interested in a ( lengthy:smiley_simmons:) in depth discusion about the topic feel free to get bored here:

I asked LogiForce in the GTplanet forum, since i found his posts always of profound knowledge, also talking about not so common details.
What shall i say: he came back with great insights...

http://https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175 (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224899
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224942
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11225133

there you may also find some new?, possibly controversial, findings and discussion about if Fz... outcome is not clear yet. But when you recently wondered about the unusual driving behavior of the Mazda Radbul you may might be interested in the a.m. posts.

i keep you posted :D :D

A clear idea of what arm angle actually is would be good. Its been said its akermann but I don't think it is. I also saw somewhere on here one of the devs said it was actually exactly what it says. The angle the arm meets the linkage at. Neither one of these makes any sense to me as to why it would be included as an adjustment in the game. By the way very interesting read.

GrimeyDog
10-02-2016, 03:08
A clear idea of what arm angle actually is would be good. Its been said its akermann but I don't think it is. I also saw somewhere on here one of the devs said it was actually exactly what it says. The angle the arm meets the linkage at. Neither one of these makes any sense to me as to why it would be included as an adjustment in the game. By the way very interesting read.

its included in the game so that you can Set your DOR exactly how you want it instead of letting the game control and set the DOR.
While it may Not Change the DOR at the wheel it will make the car steering Sharp or Dull depending how you set it.
so it would make sense if you are doing a total car suspension tweek and you Need to sharpen or Dull the turning of the car....I dunno why they would put that with the in car FFB section though:confused:

I think JS changes or was changing the arm angle in some of his tweeker files...

Haiden
10-02-2016, 04:36
A clear idea of what arm angle actually is would be good. Its been said its akermann but I don't think it is. I also saw somewhere on here one of the devs said it was actually exactly what it says. The angle the arm meets the linkage at. Neither one of these makes any sense to me as to why it would be included as an adjustment in the game. By the way very interesting read.

Not sure what the exact technical description is, but I believe it mainly affects how the wheel feels around center--tighter vs. looser (or sharper vs. duller, as Grimey said). I don't mess with it anymore. I think SMS set it per car, and the default represents what they think the car's steering should feel like.

Jack Spade
10-02-2016, 08:52
The Ackermann Angle actually is a car setup parameter, we have it in game as a FFB simulation. IIRC the steering geometry basically is determined
by wheel base and size of the car, probably Caster and Camber play a part as well, but Im not a car expert. My guess is one would need precise
data of the car from manufacture or maybe SMS to set the correct angle, we dont have that info so it more ore less remains a guessing and trial
and error adjustment. Mz is affected the most by the angle, the center area becomes a little tighter with a small angle and looser with a large one.
There are some other effects as well coupled with it but I think this is how the driver interprets them. Anyway, I use a large angle on all high
down force cars in order to minimize oscillation and a smaller one on Road cars if required, GTs on SMS default 15, its a pragmatic decision.

GrimeyDog
10-02-2016, 11:24
The Ackermann Angle actually is a car setup parameter, we have it in game as a FFB simulation. IIRC the steering geometry basically is determined
by wheel base and size of the car, probably Caster and Camber play a part as well, but Im not a car expert. My guess is one would need precise
data of the car from manufacture or maybe SMS to set the correct angle, we dont have that info so it more ore less remains a guessing and trial
and error adjustment. Mz is affected the most by the angle, the center area becomes a little tighter with a small angle and looser with a large one.
There are some other effects as well coupled with it but I think this is how the driver interprets them. Anyway, I use a large angle on all high
down force cars in order to minimize oscillation and a smaller one on Road cars if required, GTs on SMS default 15, its a pragmatic decision.

Welcome JS your Knowledge of the FFB system is Very valuable information... Thanks for taking time to Share your thoughts... Please feel free to Post and Share your thoughts and insite with us... We are all after the same thing... together as a Community with Collective Knowledge and insight we can find the Final solution to the Pcars FFB paradox. Thanx for Sharing:D

GrimeyDog

P1ckN1cker2406
10-02-2016, 11:57
its included in the game so that you can Set your DOR exactly how you want it instead of letting the game control and set the DOR.
While it may Not Change the DOR at the wheel it will make the car steering Sharp or Dull depending how you set it.
so it would make sense if you are doing a total car suspension tweek and you Need to sharpen or Dull the turning of the car....I dunno why they would put that with the in car FFB section though:confused:

I think JS changes or was changing the arm angle in some of his tweeker files...

The Arm Angle has nothing to do with the DOR setting. Arm Angle has only an impact on the FFB not on the DOR.

morpwr
10-02-2016, 12:16
The Ackermann Angle actually is a car setup parameter, we have it in game as a FFB simulation. IIRC the steering geometry basically is determined
by wheel base and size of the car, probably Caster and Camber play a part as well, but Im not a car expert. My guess is one would need precise
data of the car from manufacture or maybe SMS to set the correct angle, we dont have that info so it more ore less remains a guessing and trial
and error adjustment. Mz is affected the most by the angle, the center area becomes a little tighter with a small angle and looser with a large one.
There are some other effects as well coupled with it but I think this is how the driver interprets them. Anyway, I use a large angle on all high
down force cars in order to minimize oscillation and a smaller one on Road cars if required, GTs on SMS default 15, its a pragmatic decision.

If it is Ackermann angle that makes me wonder more why it was included at all as like you said it is determined by wheelbase and steering geometry. Basically its the point where the front tires intersect the rear axle giving more turn in to the inside tire on a turn. So why would this be included? If it is actually just the angle the tie rod meets the steering knuckle at if I remember correctly from the devs post that's even stranger as you would have to move the rack in most car to accomplish this. I can think of a reason you would want to change the length of steering arm other than clearance issues when building the car. Now height of the steering knuckle I could see. But that's another thing. Now if this is for bump steer?hmmm The horizontal angle to the steering arm. That might actually make sense. It wouldn't make a huge difference but it would be something you could feel. Might be on to something here but it would probably be more of a help when you raise or lower a car and in turn it changes the angle where the tie
rod meets the steering knuckle. Like when you lower a car and the tie rods wind up running uphill to the knuckle. Generally its not a good thing as it causes bump steer.

Haiden
10-02-2016, 12:33
Interesting review of high-end direct drive wheels--Bodnar OSW, and Accuforce--by fourlong time sim racers. I thought it was interesting to hear their thoughts on which aspects of the FFB they liked. The reviews start at 38:00 mins, in case it doesn't jump there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnugyXhVsZI

BigDad
10-02-2016, 12:42
Haiden I've a question , did you post a link or a vid above ? As all i see is a blank post with one line of text .
I'm viewing this from my ps4 and don't seem to be able to view video directly from this forum .

Haiden
10-02-2016, 13:06
There's a video. Not sure why it doesn't show. Might be the time setting I added to make it jump forward. Try the one below. I'll reset the above to start at the beginning.

http://youtu.be/fnugyXhVsZI?t=38m

Edit: The link above had some weird stuff in the video tags. I relinked it.

Fight-Test
10-02-2016, 13:52
Fanatec is currently making a console compatible direct drive wheel. Since I already have a belt driven wheel in t300(2 actually) I'm just gonna wait for the dd wheel with them. Hopefully end of this year or early next.

Haiden
10-02-2016, 14:26
Fanatec is currently making a console compatible direct drive wheel. Since I already have a belt driven wheel in t300(2 actually) I'm just gonna wait for the dd wheel with them. Hopefully end of this year or early next.

I'm gonna wait until they shake the kinks out of that one. Maybe six months or a year after it hits the market. That's usually how long it takes for manufacturers to identify unreliable parts or the ones that are degrading faster than expected and change suppliers or the tooling process. But yes, I see one of those in my future, as well. :)

GrimeyDog
10-02-2016, 14:29
Fanatec is currently making a console compatible direct drive wheel. Since I already have a belt driven wheel in t300(2 actually) I'm just gonna wait for the dd wheel with them. Hopefully end of this year or early next.

When they Release that DD wheel i will be on the First Pre Order List!!! Hopefully it will work with all the existing Rims... I will buy the wheel base Quick if thats the case!!!

Fight-Test
10-02-2016, 14:47
I'm gonna wait until they shake the kinks out of that one. Maybe six months or a year after it hits the market. That's usually how long it takes for manufacturers to identify unreliable parts or the ones that are degrading faster than expected and change suppliers or the tooling process. But yes, I see one of those in my future, as well. :)

It's fanatec, it will take forever to get it anyway.

Haiden
10-02-2016, 15:41
It's fanatec, it will take forever to get it anyway.

This is true. Even when it's in stock, too. My Clubsport system came in two shipments, even though I ordered everything at the same time and asked for 2-day shipping. It took them two days to actually ship the base and pedals, and then the rims and damper sat at their facility, until I emailed (several times). They finally shipped the remainder and credited me the difference in 2-day vs regular shipping costs. But sitting around staring at a base and pedals with no rims was hard. :) Then, about two weeks later, the rear exhaust fan quit working. I emailed them with a video, and it still took about 4 weeks of back and forth, before they finally decided to send me a replacement fan. Then, two days later they said they couldn't process the replacement order, because my base wasn't registered. Turned out, they weren't seeing it because I bought it in a bundle...LOL All in all, they always responded and were very nice, just a little slow moving. Luckily, the fan issue wasn't that big of a deal, because I purchased a USB cooling fan and mounted it over the rear exhaust hole with an air tight seal. The new fan they sent works fine, but I ended up disconnecting it and going back to the USB fan, because it cools the motor way better.

GrimeyDog
10-02-2016, 15:51
I'm gonna wait until they shake the kinks out of that one. Maybe six months or a year after it hits the market. That's usually how long it takes for manufacturers to identify unreliable parts or the ones that are degrading faster than expected and change suppliers or the tooling process. But yes, I see one of those in my future, as well. :)

Fanatec is getting better!!! I have a 1st shipment CSR Elite its Never broke down, Also i have a 2nd Shipment CSW v2 and i've only had a Rear Fan issue that was Quickly resolved...I guess I didn't miss the V2 because i just used the CSR Elite for a week until the v2 came back...and so shal it be when the Fanatec DD wheel comes out!!! I will Retire the V2 to My wall of Wheels as a Back up!

Truthfully im a Wheel/ sim Race gear hoarder !!!:p LOL... I still have My MS wireless wheel... I hear the comparrisons but i cant really see how a DD wheel feels that much better than a V2...IMO what Really matters Most is the Wheel Firmware and Game FFB physics... But i really Dunno so dont Quote Me... any 1 that has used a V2 and also a DD wheel feel free to clue Me in.... But Never the Less i want a DD wheel even Still... what a True hoarder i am... also Looks hella cool on the Man Kave wall also... LOL

Haiden
10-02-2016, 18:10
Fanatec is getting better!!! I have a 1st shipment CSR Elite its Never broke down, Also i have a 2nd Shipment CSW v2 and i've only had a Rear Fan issue that was Quickly resolved...I guess I didn't miss the V2 because i just used the CSR Elite for a week until the v2 came back...and so shal it be when the Fanatec DD wheel comes out!!! I will Retire the V2 to My wall of Wheels as a Back up!

Truthfully im a Wheel/ sim Race gear hoarder !!!:p LOL... I still have My MS wireless wheel... I hear the comparrisons but i cant really see how a DD wheel feels that much better than a V2...IMO what Really matters Most is the Wheel Firmware and Game FFB physics... But i really Dunno so dont Quote Me... any 1 that has used a V2 and also a DD wheel feel free to clue Me in.... But Never the Less i want a DD wheel even Still... what a True hoarder i am... also Looks hella cool on the Man Kave wall also... LOL

That's funny. I had issues with my exhaust fan, too. It just stopped working. They had to send a replacement. I wish they wouldn't use the caseless fans in the rear. I think they're problematic. The side intake fan is enclosed in a case. But I guess there's not enough room for a fan housing in the back.

The difference with DD wheels isn't just the strength, it's the response time and clarity. By cutting out the middle man between motor and rim shaft--belt and gears--the wheel can respond faster and with a finer degree of detail. DD wheels also have a higher resolution or steps in the rotation--not sure what the exact term is. But basically, by design, they are able to detect finer levels of user input, making your steering more precise. That being said, I've also read that, resolution wise, somewhere between the CSW-v2 and Accuforce is pretty much the maximum level of precision human beings are capable of. So basically, anything higher is wasted, because humans aren't capable of micro level movements. Of course, that doesn't mean higher ends wheels are a waste. Most, still offer a finer level of detail and are more capable in terms of strength.

Edit: I'm starting to feel like a hoarder, too. I have the CSW-v2 with the F1, CSL, and GT rim with Universal HUB, but I still have all my Thrustmaster gear--TX, T300, F1 rim, GT Leather rim, T3PA pedals, the Spider 458 non feedback wheel, and a Wheel Stand Pro. All just laying around. I keep telling myself I need to sell them. The longer I keep them, the less I'll get for them down the road. I ordered a Basherboard CPX Adapter so I can use the Clubsport pedals with the T300. I think I'm going to keep that one to use as a spare wheel. In case anything ever happens the the CSW-v2, and I find myself in a wait state. The CPX adapter came earlier this week. I haven't tried it though.

GrimeyDog
10-02-2016, 21:52
The CPX adapter works Really Good!!! But i did prefer My T500 Pedals with the TX458 wheel because Tx 458 + T500 pedals = 1024 pedal resolution connected at the wheel...using the adapter with at that time the V1 pedals resolution was only 256 and Yes you Notic the diiference Big time!!! Im Not sure about How or if the CPX works with the v3 pedals.

Edit; good rule of thumb iis if your Not starving for Cash never sell a good spare Wheel!!! you never know when or if you might Need it!!! you will be mad if you have to buy it again.

Woffu
10-02-2016, 23:03
Yes on oscarolim site with the car ffb settings
Thanks for the settings man I really like them. Then only thing is I have to have ffb at 45 because the wheel feels way to heavy/ strong at 65.
I have 1 question for ya. If your wheel felt to heavy/strong at ffb 65 would you just do what I did and turn down the ffb or would you turn down the steering gain?

Haiden
10-02-2016, 23:09
Edit; good rule of thumb iis if your Not starving for Cash never sell a good spare Wheel!!! you never know when or if you might Need it!!! you will be mad if you have to buy it again.

Oh, I agree. That's why I'm keeping the T300 and just selling the TX, and 458 Spider. I don't race on Xb1 anymore, but I like having a PS4 backup. :)

Haiden
10-02-2016, 23:11
Thanks for the settings man I really like them. Then only thing is I have to have ffb at 45 because the wheel feels way to heavy/ strong at 65.
I have 1 question for ya. If your wheel felt to heavy/strong at ffb 65 would you just do what I did and turn down the ffb or would you turn down the steering gain?

I'd try lowering the Relative Adjust Claim before messing with Steering Gain, especially lowering Steering Gain.

Woffu
10-02-2016, 23:53
I'd try lowering the Relative Adjust Claim before messing with Steering Gain, especially lowering Steering Gain.
Ok thanks. I have clamp at 85 and steering gain at 1.22 but I'll try turning clamp down to 75 and see if I can get the ffb back up a bit more.

Haiden
11-02-2016, 00:22
Ok thanks. I have clamp at 85 and steering gain at 1.22 but I'll try turning clamp down to 75 and see if I can get the ffb back up a bit more.

Oh, actually... I was assuming you still had the SG set to 1.0. If you're running it at 1.22, then, yes. I would try lowering that first. I just wouldn't go below 1.0.

Woffu
11-02-2016, 01:31
Oh, actually... I was assuming you still had the SG set to 1.0. If you're running it at 1.22, then, yes. I would try lowering that first. I just wouldn't go below 1.0.
Ok thanks man. I'll try all of that when I get home tonight.
I'm just trying to figure out what to lower with out loosing any out the dynamic details

morpwr
11-02-2016, 01:59
Thanks for the settings man I really like them. Then only thing is I have to have ffb at 45 because the wheel feels way to heavy/ strong at 65.
I have 1 question for ya. If your wheel felt to heavy/strong at ffb 65 would you just do what I did and turn down the ffb or would you turn down the steering gain?

Do not use the gain as a ffb strength control unless absolutely necessary. All you do is limit the range. I'm actually down to 58 myself and may go lower yet. I tried the fa today and it way too strong to run a whole race like that.

morpwr
11-02-2016, 02:01
Oh, actually... I was assuming you still had the SG set to 1.0. If you're running it at 1.22, then, yes. I would try lowering that first. I just wouldn't go below 1.0.

Actually that will change the whole thing Haiden. Remember tf is at 75. Same thing as 100 tf and 1.00 sg but cleaner ffb that way.

Woffu
11-02-2016, 02:30
Do not use the gain as a ffb strength control unless absolutely necessary. All you do is limit the range. I'm actually down to 58 myself and may go lower yet. I tried the fa today and it way too strong to run a whole race like that.
Cheers for clearing that up I think I'll just leave somewhere between 45/50. Iv been getting my best lap times with your settings now. I use jacks 66%

Haiden
11-02-2016, 02:36
Actually that will change the whole thing Haiden. Remember tf is at 75. Same thing as 100 tf and 1.00 sg but cleaner ffb that way.


Cheers for clearing that up I think I'll just leave somewhere between 45/50. Iv been getting my best lap times with your settings now. I use jacks 66%

Sorry. Didn't know his other settings. Then just lower the RAC. That will decrease the strength without affecting the range. If you keep lowering TF, it's going to affect the range.