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morpwr
11-02-2016, 01:37
Cheers for clearing that up I think I'll just leave somewhere between 45/50. Iv been getting my best lap times with your settings now. I use jacks 66%

I would try the classic any setting that use sol lat make the wheel heavier than it should be. All the forces are there with the classic just not exaggerated . It may take a little getting used too if you have been using those. I found the sop lat stacks on top of mz and fy making those forces way too strong. It shouldn't work that way. Give the classic a shot I think you will be surprised but you will most likely have to turn the ffb back up some.

Woffu
11-02-2016, 05:02
Sorry. Didn't know his other settings. Then just lower the RAC. That will decrease the strength without affecting the range. If you keep lowering TF, it's going to affect the range.

Thanks for that mate. Yea I don't won't to go any lower then 75TF.

Woffu
11-02-2016, 05:11
I would try the classic any setting that use sol lat make the wheel heavier than it should be. All the forces are there with the classic just not exaggerated . It may take a little getting used too if you have been using those. I found the sop lat stacks on top of mz and fy making those forces way too strong. It shouldn't work that way. Give the classic a shot I think you will be surprised but you will most likely have to turn the ffb back up some.
Thanks mate I'll give the classic settings a go and see how they feel.
I'd just like to thank you, haiden, grimeydog and the others one here for all the work yous have done. Thank you

Jack Spade
11-02-2016, 08:36
I would try the classic any setting that use sol lat make the wheel heavier than it should be. All the forces are there with the classic just not exaggerated . It may take a little getting used too if you have been using those. I found the sop lat stacks on top of mz and fy making those forces way too strong. It shouldn't work that way. Give the classic a shot I think you will be surprised but you will most likely have to turn the ffb back up some.

I donīt think thatīs the case. Key of developing my files was a method to assess all forces on all cars, BTW a long lasting and nerve wracking process. With the Fy/SopLat mix
versions the sum or amount of Side Load Force is identical to the Classic-Standard version (Fy only). If you take a closer look at it and compare these versions their values might
not suggest, but trust me the force is. (Fy only force = 1, Fy 66,66%+SopLat 33,33% mix force = 1). SopLateral side load is derived from the rear tires hence the character of the
mix versions is somewhat different as the force of SopLat builds up in a -U- shape, Fy in -O- shape. With the 66% SopLat version you will notice the -U- shape more clearly
as the wheel feels lighter in the range between 45-90 degrees turning angle (GT cars) hence seems to get stronger beyond than with the Classic version, Mz has slightly more room
to breathe here, but again the sum of side load and even itīs maximum is identical. BTW Sop doesnīt occur on a real wheel is purely FFB world.

Woffu
11-02-2016, 09:53
I tryed the classic vs 66% and the wheel was maybe a little lighter with the classic settings but not much. Now I'm not sure what ones best I like because I can get the same lap times with both

morpwr
11-02-2016, 11:07
I donīt think thatīs the case. Key of developing my files was a method to assess all forces on all cars, BTW a long lasting and nerve wracking process. With the Fy/SopLat mix
versions the sum or amount of Side Load Force is identical to the Classic-Standard version (Fy only). If you take a closer look at it and compare these versions their values might
not suggest, but trust me the force is. (Fy only force = 1, Fy 66,66%+SopLat 33,33% mix force = 1). SopLateral side load is derived from the rear tires hence the character of the
mix versions is somewhat different as the force of SopLat builds up in a -U- shape, Fy in -O- shape. With the 66% SopLat version you will notice the -U- shape more clearly
as the wheel feels lighter in the range between 45-90 degrees turning angle (GT cars) hence seems to get stronger beyond than with the Classic version, Mz has slightly more room
to breathe here, but again the sum of side load and even itīs maximum is identical. BTW Sop doesnīt occur on a real wheel is purely FFB world.

I realize sop is a ffb thing. They are trying to replicate what you would normally feel in your butt when driving. Maybe things have changed since I last tried anything with sop lat but every time I tried them the wheel got heavier when the car got loose. Which is 100% wrong it should get lighter as the back end comes around. Ill have to give them a try again. So much has changed over the past few months it hard to keep up with everything. Thanks for the help and clarification. Just wanted to clarify this . I don't think its your settings just the way the game figures rear side load.

Haiden
11-02-2016, 11:38
Thanks mate I'll give the classic settings a go and see how they feel.
I'd just like to thank you, haiden, grimeydog and the others one here for all the work yous have done. Thank you

No problem. :) I've played both with and without SoP, given each style a couple months. I found I can drive either way and appreciate both, but my lap times seem to suffer a bit when I used SoP Lat--not when I use SoP Diff, though. Since 8.0, I no longer change the SoP settings. If they are there by default, I just adjust the SoP Scale to match my Master Scale, but that's it.

Jack Spade
11-02-2016, 14:34
I realize sop is a ffb thing. They are trying to replicate what you would normally feel in your butt when driving. Maybe things have changed since I last tried anything with sop lat but every time I tried them the wheel got heavier when the car got loose. Which is 100% wrong it should get lighter as the back end comes around. Ill have to give them a try again. So much has changed over the past few months it hard to keep up with everything. Thanks for the help and clarification. Just wanted to clarify this . I don't think its your settings just the way the game figures rear side load.

What makes you think that? When the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in opposite direction to where you have it turned to, basically the weight of the car is trying
to pull here, a very strong force. As I tried to explain before, the amount of side load force is identical in my different versions, itīs more or less the way
Mz, Fy/SopLat interact with each other caused by a certain mix balance that determines the versionīs character. FFB would only severely change if SMS decides to
modify the cars/tire physics but I doubt that will ever happen in pCARS 1. IIRC their latest FFB mod was the introduction of Steering Gain and Low Speed Spring which
is purely global FFB stuff, theses things donīt require to adapt a single value in the tweakers.

GrimeyDog
11-02-2016, 15:05
I like the Feel of SoP... The way the wheel reacts its almost instinct to counter steer...its all about settings being Balanced Right to get Good Feel from using SoP. I find that High Fx settings take away much more feel than it gives... High Fx will totally drown out the Feel of Fy...The More Fx i add the Lighter and Less turning feel the wheel has Mid turn range...then that just causes Me to add More Fy and on and on etc....its all about finding the balance thats right for you... i use Fx6.00/Fy46.00 balance thats My Sweet Spot!!!

Haiden
11-02-2016, 15:47
...but every time I tried them the wheel got heavier when the car got loose. Which is 100% wrong it should get lighter as the back end comes around.


When the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in opposite direction to where you have it turned to, basically the weight of the car is trying
to pull here, a very strong force.

I think this is where SoP gets problematic for some (I'm pretty sure it's why I don't care for it). When the back end steps out, SoP is making the wheel heavier, pulling in that direction, but if you were using classic settings, you'd feel the tire slip--wheel getting lighter due to the loss of grip. You just have to decide which you prefer, or allow yourself time to get used to it. Using or not using SoP is a preference. If it's not working for you, just stop using it. Personally, I don't like SoP Lat for the reasons Jack stated above. IMO, it's an odd force to have transmitted through the wheel, because it's not spindle/tire related. My brain is used to interpreting lateral forces as grip, not weight transfer.

Jack Spade
11-02-2016, 16:58
I think this is where SoP gets problematic for some (I'm pretty sure it's why I don't care for it). When the back end steps out, SoP is making the wheel heavier, pulling in that direction, but if you were using classic settings, you'd feel the tire slip--wheel getting lighter due to the loss of grip. You just have to decide which you prefer, or allow yourself time to get used to it. Using or not using SoP is a preference. If it's not working for you, just stop using it. Personally, I don't like SoP Lat for the reasons Jack stated above. IMO, it's an odd force to have transmitted through the wheel, because it's not spindle/tire related. My brain is used to interpreting lateral forces as grip, not weight transfer.

How is that possible then? When the rear steps out itīs side load force pulling that you feel on your wheel no matter if pure Fy or any SopLat mix. The steering wheel is coupled to front axle/tires
and I donīt see a plausible reason why FFB should become light in such a situation. The wheel only becomes light if you loose a lot of grip on the front tires under heavy braking and tires locking.
On the other side Sop is purely a FFB thing, but it is derived from car/tire physics, from the rear of the car, is translated into a usable FFB signal on a steering wheel.

morpwr
11-02-2016, 17:41
How is that possible then? When the rear steps out itīs side load force pulling that you feel on your wheel no matter if pure Fy or any SopLat mix. The steering wheel is coupled to front axle/tires
and I donīt see a plausible reason why FFB should become light in such a situation. The wheel only becomes light if you loose a lot of grip on the front tires under heavy braking and tires locking.
On the other side Sop is purely a FFB thing, but it is derived from car/tire physics, from the rear of the car, is translated into a usable FFB signal on a steering wheel.

Jack that is not true. Any time the rear of a car rotates around the front tires the wheel gets lighter. Ive done it many times in real life.:D That's what ive been trying to say sop lat should subtract when the rear end steps out not add weight to the wheel. Using classic settings it works just as it should. Back end steps out wheel gets lighter . Wouldn't mz go away as the rear end rotated around the front tires? I think that's correct reason. All I know is in real life the wheel gets lighter that's what lets you know youre on the edge or pushing too hard as the rear gets loose.

GrimeyDog
11-02-2016, 18:29
Jack that is not true. Any time the rear of a car rotates around the front tires the wheel gets lighter. Ive done it many times in real life.:D That's what ive been trying to say sop lat should subtract when the rear end steps out not add weight to the wheel. Using classic settings it works just as it should. Back end steps out wheel gets lighter . Wouldn't mz go away as the rear end rotated around the front tires? I think that's correct reason. All I know is in real life the wheel gets lighter that's what lets you know youre on the edge or pushing too hard as the rear gets loose.

I think its a Matter of Settings... IRL when i Power Slide My 350z i can clearly Feel How much i Need to turn the wheel to keep the car Straight or to Drift it to where i want it to Go... My V2 give Me Basicly the same Feel and i can Stop a Slide before it starts or Counter steer to Catch it before i Spin out... I can Clearly Feel which way and How Much to turn the wheel.

By Trade im a Auto Mechanic... I spent all of My 20's Power Braking, Doing Donuts, and just being wreckless with cars!!! LOL... Im 46 Now and Still hit a Burn out with a 360 or 180 Donut!!! Im just doing it in better cars with the Top down Now:cool: LOL... YOLO why Not.


Ii i couldnt feel it in the wheel i would have Never Caught this Slide!!! Never once hit the Brakes!!! All Throttle and Counter steering. You can see in the Video the steering wheel Counter steering to stop the Slide...as well as you can hear the Car Skidding trying to break Loose.

https://youtu.be/IFUJXXsRaOg


if your usung assist TCS, Stability Control that would explain why you cant feel the SoP correctly... Those assist directly Contradict and Counteract SoP feel because they are trying to stop you from Spinning your wheels or Sliding out and are confusing you about what you feel in the wheel.... IMO The SoP feel is there and its Very Good.

Haiden
11-02-2016, 18:46
How is that possible then? When the rear steps out itīs side load force pulling that you feel on your wheel no matter if pure Fy or any SopLat mix. The steering wheel is coupled to front axle/tires
and I donīt see a plausible reason why FFB should become light in such a situation. The wheel only becomes light if you loose a lot of grip on the front tires under heavy braking and tires locking.
On the other side Sop is purely a FFB thing, but it is derived from car/tire physics, from the rear of the car, is translated into a usable FFB signal on a steering wheel.

I hear what you're saying, but that's not how it seems to be working, because the wheel does get lighter when the back end slips out. In fact, I can clearly feel the back end getting ready to slip as I approach the threshold. I know it's the back end, because if I don't compensate, the rear comes around and punishes me for it. :) Are you saying you've never felt this? I understand your point, and have wondered the same, because it's suppose to be spindle forces which are at the front. I've just always assumed there was something else communicating that rear slip, because the feeling is there. Even without SoP.

I don't think every sim uses SoP (PCars is the first I know off, unless I just didn't know it was in the settings), but you can still feel the back end slipping out other games.


I think its a Matter of Settings... IRL when i Power Slide My 350z i can clearly Feel How much i Need to turn the wheel to keep the car Straight or to Drift it to where i want it to Go... My V2 give Me Basicly the same Feel and i can Stop a Slide before it starts or Counter steer to Catch it before i Spin out... I can Clearly Feel which way and How Much to turn the wheel.

But IRL, you're not just reacting the wheel feel, you also feel the slip in your butt, that's why they call it Seat of the Pants. And that sensation isn't something you can turn on and off in your head. It's your senses reacting to stimuli. IRL, the SoP isn't coming through the wheel. Your brain just uses the feeling--that sense of inertia--in conjunction with what you're feeling in the wheel. In a sim, you're working with limited senses. You don't have any sense of inertia. SoP coming through the wheel in a sim isn't the same as IRL where the feel of the wheel and your sense of inertia are separate, yet working together.

Edit: That's not to say that sim SoP isn't useful. It's just not something that everyone finds useful. :)

morpwr
11-02-2016, 19:00
I think its a Matter of Settings... IRL when i Power Slide My 350z i can clearly Feel How much i Need to turn the wheel to keep the car Straight or to Drift it to where i want it to Go... My V2 give Me Basicly the same Feel and i can Stop a Slide before it starts or Counter steer to Catch it before i Spin out... I can Clearly Feel which way and How Much to turn the wheel.

By Trade im a Auto Mechanic... I spent all of My 20's Power Braking, Doing Donuts, and just being wreckless with cars!!! LOL... Im 46 Now and Still hit a Burn out with a 360 or 180 Donut!!! Im just doing it in better cars with the Top down Now:cool: LOL... YOLO why Not.


Ii i couldnt feel it in the wheel i would have Never Caught this Slide!!! Never once hit the Brakes!!! All Throttle and Counter steering. You can see in the Video the steering wheel Counter steering to stop the Slide...as well as you can hear the Car Skidding trying to break Loose.

https://youtu.be/IFUJXXsRaOg


if your usung assist TCS, Stability Control that would explain why you cant feel the SoP correctly... Those assist directly Contradict and Counteract SoP feel because they are trying to stop you from Spinning your wheels or Sliding out and are confusing you about what you feel in the wheel.... IMO The SoP feel is there and its Very Good.

Same age and same trade grimey. Have a 650hp ls el camino sitting in my shop right now.:D Don't use any assists and never have. Hate them irl and in games. I feel it fine with his classic settings just not with anything that uses sop lat. Sop diff is fine too.

Haiden
11-02-2016, 19:06
Ii i couldnt feel it in the wheel i would have Never Caught this Slide!!! Never once hit the Brakes!!! All Throttle and Counter steering. You can see in the Video the steering wheel Counter steering to stop the Slide...as well as you can hear the Car Skidding trying to break Loose.

if your usung assist TCS, Stability Control that would explain why you cant feel the SoP correctly... Those assist directly Contradict and Counteract SoP feel because they are trying to stop you from Spinning your wheels or Sliding out and are confusing you about what you feel in the wheel.... IMO The SoP feel is there and its Very Good.

People still catch slides like that without SoP. I don't use it, and I catch them. I don't use traction or stability control either. Using SoP Lat doesn't actually feel bad to me when I'm driving, at least not with open wheelers. But my lap times are always slower when I'm using it. Turn it off, and bam...back to normal times. I drove with it for months when the game first released. Turned it off out of curiosity when I started retuning and gained time. I also find GT and road cars more difficult to drive with SoP Lat, which I find strange. I thought it would help with those cars, because of the higher CoG and weight transfer, but even with those cars, I'm better without it.


Same age and same trade grimey. Have a 650hp ls el camino sitting in my shop right now.:D Don't use any assists and never have. Hate them irl and in games. I feel it fine with his classic settings just not with anything that uses sop lat. Sop diff is fine too.

Yes! It's just the Lat that I have a problem with.

Also...I'm the same age, too. That's strange. :)

morpwr
11-02-2016, 19:56
People still catch slides like that without SoP. I don't use it, and I catch them. I don't use traction or stability control either. Using SoP Lat doesn't actually feel bad to me when I'm driving. But my lap times are always slower when I'm using it. Turn it off, and bam...back to normal times. I drove with it for months when the game first released. Turned it off out of curiosity when I started retuning and gained time. I also find GT and road cars more difficult to drive with SoP Lat, which I find strange. I thought it would help with those cars, because of the higher CoG and weight transfer, but even with those cars, I'm better without i

Yes! It's just the Lat that I have a problem with.

Also...I'm the same age, too. That's strange. :)

Yeah we are all old:p

lancashirelad
11-02-2016, 22:29
Yeah we are all old:p

I'm 48 so in same ball park. Gonna try your settings at the weekend. Been using my own without jack spades because I got fed up inputting them but may give them another go. Currently using a tweak on your global anyway.

Warren1571
11-02-2016, 22:59
You guys are way too old, lol ...... I'm only 44 ......doh!

I'm using a mish-mash of FFB settings, some early Jack Spade stuff ..... now I just wish I could reset to defaults without losing all my game data, career progress etc. But sadly it sounds like that is not possible :(

Haiden
11-02-2016, 23:45
You guys are way too old, lol ...... I'm only 44 ......doh!

I'm using a mish-mash of FFB settings, some early Jack Spade stuff ..... now I just wish I could reset to defaults without losing all my game data, career progress etc. But sadly it sounds like that is not possible :(

You youngin', you. :)

I'm not sure I understand your reset issue. You can reset the global scales by switching back to the default profile. The in-car scales can't be reset without losing the mechanical setup (kind of a pain), but since there aren't too many scales, you can reset it, write down the FFB values, and then back out without saving. Then you can go back in and manually set the FFB scales back to their default values. Or are you talking about resetting something else?

Warren1571
12-02-2016, 00:05
You youngin', you. :)

I'm not sure I understand your reset issue. You can reset the global scales by switching back to the default profile. The in-car scales can't be reset without losing the mechanical setup (kind of a pain), but since there aren't too many scales, you can reset it, write down the FFB values, and then back out without saving. Then you can go back in and manually set the FFB scales back to their default values. Or are you talking about resetting something else?

Yeah, that is my issue the in-car scales are what I want to reset - I'll give that a go without saving. Cheers

GrimeyDog
12-02-2016, 02:15
Hhhmmm Interesting New Globals Based on TF 1.00 and RAG 1.00

RAG 1.00 (Static Non Changing)
RAB 0.12 + or - to FFB forces
RAC 0.92 (Staic)

scoop Knee 69 (+ to FFB forces)
Scoop Redu 19 (- to FFB Forces)

What i did was Balance all the Settings that + or - FFB Effects to = 1.00 to match Tire Force and RAG... Feels Great to Me!!!
69 +19 +12 = 1.00
Now I dont Know if the applied Science has any merrit but it feels Good to Me and is worth investigation...

Jack Spade
12-02-2016, 07:21
Jack that is not true. Any time the rear of a car rotates around the front tires the wheel gets lighter. Ive done it many times in real life.:D That's what ive been trying to say sop lat should subtract when the rear end steps out not add weight to the wheel. Using classic settings it works just as it should. Back end steps out wheel gets lighter . Wouldn't mz go away as the rear end rotated around the front tires? I think that's correct reason. All I know is in real life the wheel gets lighter that's what lets you know youre on the edge or pushing too hard as the rear gets loose.

Again, SopLat and Fy are side load forces, they are not 100% identical cause derived from different sources, but they always doing the same pulling the wheel
in opposite direction to where you have it turned to when you enter a curve and the rear wants to step out, a combination of centrifugal force and resulting weight transfer
of the car. Following your theory here and SopLat would subtract, it would be a negative force (negative weight transfer??). Also, none of my SopLat mix versions would
work at all cause Fy and SopLat would cancel out each other to a great extend, believe me I never would ever have posted such a setting. As mentioned before, developing
the files I did a fundamental assessment of all forces on all cars, probably imprecise here and there but basically Iīm pretty certain of how the forces work and interact.

Tiberius_85
12-02-2016, 09:25
Hi all, I have been following your discussion for a long time and done my own tests in parallel. I just want to add some aspect to the discussion.

I have found that messing with RAs can severely change wheel weight and cornering feel. This might be a reason for the differing FFB experiences of different users. I found that I actually like the FFB feel without RA and SC quite well on my T300 on PS4. Caveat is that you have to lower tire force to avoid clipping, but to me this not a problem because I prefer a light FFB anyway (need to do 1 hour online races without exhaustion).

My last tests have been at Watkins Glen with the Aston Martin Vantage GT4. No RA, no SC, TF 45 to avoid clipping. Use SG or FFB to adjust strength, for me on PS4 FFB 75 Sg 1.0 works fine. In-car I tried JS classic, JS with SoP and SMS default, all felt ok.

After some experiments I have gone back to use some RA (.9,.04,.96), which gives a slightly lighter and at the same time more dynamic feel, but with a very low RAB so that the absolute part dominates and RA wears off quickly (just a pinch of RA-salt on the already good RA-less FFB-meal ;)). But I suggest testing without RA to get a feeling if strange effects come from the initial FFB data or from RA settings.

Anyone want to try it and share their thoughts?

PureMalt77
12-02-2016, 11:13
With 38 I feel now like the baby of the group :rolleyes:

morpwr
12-02-2016, 11:23
Again, SopLat and Fy are side load forces, they are not 100% identical cause derived from different sources, but they always doing the same pulling the wheel
in opposite direction to where you have it turned to when you enter a curve and the rear wants to step out, a combination of centrifugal force and resulting weight transfer
of the car. Following your theory here and SopLat would subtract, it would be a negative force (negative weight transfer??). Also, none of my SopLat mix versions would
work at all cause Fy and SopLat would cancel out each other to a great extend, believe me I never would ever have posted such a setting. As mentioned before, developing
the files I did a fundamental assessment of all forces on all cars, probably imprecise here and there but basically Iīm pretty certain of how the forces work and interact.

Jack I agree those force are side load the problem begins when the back end comes around the front tires. Think about what happens when you turn into a corner. Wheels are turned back end steps out and rotates the car AROUND the front tires. The front tires even though they are still turned aren't actually staying turned as the rear comes around. Also remember the rear end is sliding sideways at the point it steps out. So it doesn't have the same level of side grip as the front or it wouldn't be sliding. Maybe it should be mz force that it would take away from because you are unwinding the front tires as the rear comes around. If you have ever done this in real life you would know the wheel does not get heavier as the rear end comes around the front. Not trying to be argumentative jack but it is wrong.

morpwr
12-02-2016, 13:08
Anybody see some of the guys are posting the ffb is stronger again on pc? Here we go again.lol

GrimeyDog
12-02-2016, 13:27
Anybody see some of the guys are posting the ffb is stronger again on pc? Here we go again.lol

Its going to be a Never ending Saga!!!

TF sets Constant Wheel Weight.

RAG sets Power Iimit of Relative System... FFB forces that Rise above this set limit will be Cut/Clipped

RAB Bleeds off torque to create Changes in wheel Weight to Create FFB Effects Feel.

RAC sets power Level (+ or -)FFB effects Strength.

Steering Gain Blend all Forces Together before FFB signal is sent to Wheel.

GM FFB sets at the Wheel Power Level for Console.

In Car FFB Settngs set the % amount that you want to feel the individual Forces that can be adjusted.

99.95% sure that this is How it works, and it works this way No Matter of how you choose to set the in Car Masters Low or High the Forces are Multiplied or Divided the same Exact way... Low Master yield Lower FFB Forces High Master Yield Stronger FFB forces and IMO more detailed finer FFB forces.

Warren1571
12-02-2016, 13:37
@grimeydog - that is some useful insight, at last this is starting to make some sense to me. Cheers.

GrimeyDog
12-02-2016, 13:42
Most People dont Realize that you are actually Setting 3 different power levels within 1 FFB systems to act as 1.

1) TF Wheel weight only
2) Relative FFB Effects Strength Only
3)GM FFB (Console) at the wheel FFB strength only.... PC setting has same effect its just governed by the PC Not the Game So PC GM FFB = 100 always... I may have worded the PC part wrong but you understand what im saying... I geuess... LOL

im sure some one re word it correctly for me... LOL

Haiden
12-02-2016, 15:00
Again, SopLat and Fy are side load forces, they are not 100% identical cause derived from different sources, but they always doing the same pulling the wheel
in opposite direction to where you have it turned to when you enter a curve and the rear wants to step out, a combination of centrifugal force and resulting weight transfer
of the car. Following your theory here and SopLat would subtract, it would be a negative force (negative weight transfer??). Also, none of my SopLat mix versions would
work at all cause Fy and SopLat would cancel out each other to a great extend, believe me I never would ever have posted such a setting. As mentioned before, developing
the files I did a fundamental assessment of all forces on all cars, probably imprecise here and there but basically Iīm pretty certain of how the forces work and interact.

I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree with the technical (on paper) assessment of how it's supposed to work. However, I can't ignore the fact that when I'm actually playing the game, my wheel gets lighter when the back end starts to step out, even when I'm not using SoP. I don't know why this is, but it is. The same way I don't know why my laps times are always slower when I use SoP Laterals. Since the first time I saw the FFB chart showing the steps through the chain, I've never understood where that feeling was coming from, because, according to the chart, it's all derived from the front wheels. I'm gonna play around with the RadBull this weekend--with and without SoP, and try to get a feel for it coming through the wheel, because know I'm curious.

GrimeyDog
12-02-2016, 16:06
I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree with the technical (on paper) assessment of how it's supposed to work. However, I can't ignore the fact that when I'm actually playing the game, my wheel gets lighter when the back end starts to step out, even when I'm not using SoP. I don't know why this is, but it is. The same way I don't know why my laps times are always slower when I use SoP Laterals. Since the first time I saw the FFB chart showing the steps through the chain, I've never understood where that feeling was coming from, because, according to the chart, it's all derived from the front wheels. I'm gonna play around with the RadBull this weekend--with and without SoP, and try to get a feel for it coming through the wheel, because know I'm curious.


When the Rear of the Car Steps out i can Clearly feel a change in wheel weight in the Direction that i am turning the wheel... The Feeling Simulates RL to the point that My Natural reaction to Counter and throttle Steer in the opposite direction until i feel the wheel weight return instinctively kicks in.

Keep in Mind that any changes you have made to the Car suspension Prior to your Current FFB Tweek will have a effect on How FFB forces are percieved... This is why i Drive all the cars with Stock suspensions until the PCars updates are done with and i can come up with the final FFB solution that fits Me best...Only then will i tune car suspnsion.

Edit: I think you and JS are saying the same thing in diff ways...
Your Focused on the Change in wheel weight in the direction you are Turning... The wheel gets lighter...This is Correct.

JS is Focusing on the wheel weight being transferd to the Direction the Car is Sliding...This is Correct also.

Haiden
12-02-2016, 16:24
Edit: I think you and JS are saying the same thing in diff ways...
Your Focused on the Change in wheel weight in the direction you are Turning... The wheel gets lighter...This is Correct.

JS is Focusing on the wheel weight being transferd to the Direction the Car is Sliding...This is Correct also.

I think you're right. We're just coming at it from opposite directions. :)

redruMKO
12-02-2016, 18:09
I think you're right. We're just coming at it from opposite directions. :)

Sounds like an old-fashioned game of chicken! Who's gonna swerve first? :-)

redruMKO
12-02-2016, 18:17
...I have found that messing with RAs can severely change wheel weight and cornering feel. This might be a reason for the differing FFB experiences of different users. I found that I actually like the FFB feel without RA and SC quite well on my T300 on PS4. Caveat is that you have to lower tire force to avoid clipping...
Anyone want to try it and share their thoughts?

YEP! I've been running zero SC and zero RA on my G29. [also zero Fx and Fz]

..and yes, you need to balance the TF and SG etc. Gives me a detailed, linear, simple feedback. -and yet it's still by far the most 'complex' feeling FFB of any game. [try GT6 and it feels like about 1/6th of what we can feel in pCars]

morpwr
12-02-2016, 18:52
I think you're right. We're just coming at it from opposite directions. :)

I don't think we are.In post 1511 jack states when the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in the opposite direction. That is wrong if anything it tries to turn the front wheel more in the direction they where pointed as the rear end comes around them. The reason we counter steer. WE turn the wheel in the opposite direction not the rear of the car.

Haiden
12-02-2016, 19:14
Looks Really Nice but I dont want to pay $1,500 for it + tax + Shipping ... Thats just too Much.... Which ever drops price first... 1) Obutto Revolution ( 2) RS1 ( 3) N1...Not likely to drop in price though so im not counting on this 1...

for $1,500 + Tax + Shipping Thats the Obutto and 3/4ths the budget on a New Gaming PC... Economics 101

Dude... you should really get a rig. I think you'll be even faster if you do. It made a huge difference for me, going from the wheel stand to a full rig. There's just something about having everything connected that changes everything. Earlier this week I got some new zip tie downs for the pedal plate on my GT Omega Art. The ones that come with it are okay, but give a little when you brake hard. They also only give you two. So I got some heavy duty zip ties and now have four stronger ones holding the front of the plate down. It's crazy. There really wasn't that much play with the old ones, but just adding that little bit of sturdiness, changed my entire braking feel. Not only did I have to recalibrate the pedals, but I also had to readjust the cylinder stiffness and travel, as well as the brake force sensitivity on the wheel, and the brake pressure in the game...LOL. All from just removing less than a centimeter of play from the deck.

morpwr
12-02-2016, 19:41
Dude... you should really get a rig. I think you'll be even faster if you do. It made a huge difference for me, going from the wheel stand to a full rig. There's just something about having everything connected that changes everything. Earlier this week I got some new zip tie downs for the pedal plate on my GT Omega Art. The ones that come with it are okay, but give a little when you brake hard. They also only give you two. So I got some heavy duty zip ties and now have four stronger ones holding the front of the plate down. It's crazy. There really wasn't that much play with the old ones, but just adding that little bit of sturdiness, changed my entire braking feel. Not only did I have to recalibrate the pedals, but I also had to readjust the cylinder stiffness and travel, as well as the brake force sensitivity on the wheel, and the brake pressure in the game...LOL. All from just removing less than a centimeter of play from the deck.

That's pretty much where I'm at. The little things. My load cell is coming. I had one for years on my g27 and forgot how much I like it until now. You guys with your fanatic stuff are spoiled. lol Spent a good portion of last night getting the shifter on and ill probably play with it again tonight. Once you get a cockpit you wont be able to go back to anything else.

GrimeyDog
12-02-2016, 19:44
I don't think we are.In post 1511 jack states when the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in the opposite direction. That is wrong if anything it tries to turn the front wheel more in the direction they where pointed as the rear end comes around them. The reason we counter steer. WE turn the wheel in the opposite direction not the rear of the car.

Yes exactly... The Wheel Weight Pulls in the Opposte direction causing the wheel to Lose FFB Resistance and Freely Turn in the Direction your allready Turning...

Its just being decribed from 2 diff perspectives

You talking about wheel Feel getting Lighter in the Direction your turning... This is Correct

JS is talking the physics and where the wheel weight gets transferd to when these events happen.... His description is also Correct.

jack states when the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in the opposite direction.... He probably meant to say the opposite direction "your turning in" and left out the few words being brief with the summary....its the only thing that makes sense...as any 1 that drives knows when you lose traction that the wheel gets light in the direction your tuning....well at least i hope so:D

OpenRoad
12-02-2016, 20:25
YEP! I've been running zero SC and zero RA on my G29. [also zero Fx and Fz]

..and yes, you need to balance the TF and SG etc. Gives me a detailed, linear, simple feedback. -and yet it's still by far the most 'complex' feeling FFB of any game. [try GT6 and it feels like about 1/6th of what we can feel in pCars]

Where do I find the SC and RA Settings?

poirqc
12-02-2016, 21:33
Where do I find the SC and RA Settings?

Relative Adjusts(are mid way in the globals) and Soft Clipping(near the end of globals)

GrimeyDog
13-02-2016, 01:17
Dude... you should really get a rig. I think you'll be even faster if you do. It made a huge difference for me, going from the wheel stand to a full rig. There's just something about having everything connected that changes everything. Earlier this week I got some new zip tie downs for the pedal plate on my GT Omega Art. The ones that come with it are okay, but give a little when you brake hard. They also only give you two. So I got some heavy duty zip ties and now have four stronger ones holding the front of the plate down. It's crazy. There really wasn't that much play with the old ones, but just adding that little bit of sturdiness, changed my entire braking feel. Not only did I have to recalibrate the pedals, but I also had to readjust the cylinder stiffness and travel, as well as the brake force sensitivity on the wheel, and the brake pressure in the game...LOL. All from just removing less than a centimeter of play from the deck.


That's pretty much where I'm at. The little things. My load cell is coming. I had one for years on my g27 and forgot how much I like it until now. You guys with your fanatic stuff are spoiled. lol Spent a good portion of last night getting the shifter on and ill probably play with it again tonight. Once you get a cockpit you wont be able to go back to anything else.

I've been thinking about buying a rig for some time now but they are just priced Too dam High!!! Im going to wait it out a bit longer for a price drop...the RS1 should drop now that the n1 is out.. If they drop it to $699.00 or $799.00 but include all the extras, key board holder, Shifter mount ETC Like Obutto has done with the Obutto Revolution, it comes with almost everything for $769.00 even a single TV stand that can hold my 48in...I was debating what i wanted to get first New gaming Pc or Rig...Now that the N1 Dropped I'm gonna hold out a few more weeks to see if they go on sale and if they Go on sale i will order 1 but if they don't i will Buy the new gaming PC first and Keep checking for the price drop or sale.

The set up i use now is Very comfortable and i built it to fit and feel like I'm in my 350z... Very comfortable for all day racing... The seat is from a Subaru Impreza ...Wheel Height is adjusted for maximum arm Comfort and driving position, TV height has also been adjusted so that when i sit My Eyes are looking straight ahead and the center of the screen is Eye level... only thing i Really need to add to it is some Rake in the Pedals... Pedals are positioned good but Now that i have the Fanatec CCS SQ Shifter im going to work on making a Pedal plate this week while I'm on vacation to add some rake to the Pedals...Ooooh...The Hand brake came yesterday I'm putting it on Now..Its a nice Piece of kit!!! LOL

take a look at the Pic one of the Biggest reasons i have not bought a rig yet is that when i finely buy 1 i havent figured out where I'm Going to put all my stuff??? everything is on there PS4,PS3,XB1,XB360,2x buttkicker amps and PC and everything is hooked up ready to go!!! .When i built this set up i built it to be modular and expandable to hold all my equipment..That's the Big Draw back for me and a Rig i have to rearrange everything...That's really a big part that's holding me back.

poirqc
13-02-2016, 01:26
take a look at the Pic one of the Biggest reasons i have not bought a rig yet is that when i finely buy 1 i haven figured out where I'm Going to put all my stuff??? When i built this set up i built it to be modular and expandable to hold all my equipment...That's really a big part of it that's holding me back.

You do have a point.

The biggest downside, for me, is the size of my PVC rig. If you have the space to store it, it's a must. But it can be pretty clunky to move and store if you don't have much storage space.

There was this time where i wanted to bring my stuff to my friend's home theater(135" screen :D). I tought i could just put it in my station wagon. I did an error when i measured it. I had trouble getting it out of the house(old house, weird doors). I even had to remove the wheel from the stand, outside, while there was light rain! :D

Fun stuff. :)

GrimeyDog
13-02-2016, 01:41
You do have a point.

The biggest downside, for me, is the size of my PVC rig. If you have the space to store it, it's a must. But it can be pretty clunky to move and store if you don't have much storage space.

There was this time where i wanted to bring my stuff to my friend's home theater(135" screen :D). I tought i could just put it in my station wagon. I did an error when i measured it. I had trouble getting it out of the house(old house, weird doors). I even had to remove the wheel from the stand, outside, while there was light rain! :D

Fun stuff. :)

Mine is made from PVC with wood tops... But here's the kicker.. the tops are glued together but i didn't glue the Legs in Place so i can take the Tops off and it come apart it!!! i can raise or lower any part of the set at will... see the chair base pic its all put together the same way gravity and weight that keeps it all in place and its all rock solid sturdy!!! its a great space saver build.

YYup i was just tooo busy to paint it... and now every time i have time to paint it im too busy Racing!!!:victorious:

gotdirt410sprintcar
13-02-2016, 02:55
I've been thinking about buying a rig for some time now but they are just priced Too dam High!!! Im going to wait it out a bit longer for a price drop...the RS1 should drop now that the n1 is out.. If they drop it to $699.00 or $799.00 but include all the extras, key board holder, Shifter mount ETC Like Obutto has done with the Obutto Revolution, it comes with almost everything for $769.00 even a single TV stand that can hold my 48in...I was debating what i wanted to get first New gaming Pc or Rig...Now that the N1 Dropped I'm gonna hold out a few more weeks to see if they go on sale and if they Go on sale i will order 1 but if they don't i will Buy the new gaming PC first and Keep checking for the price drop or sale.

The set up i use now is Very comfortable and i built it to fit and feel like I'm in my 350z... Very comfortable for all day racing... The seat is from a Subaru Impreza ...Wheel Height is adjusted for maximum arm Comfort and driving position, TV height has also been adjusted so that when i sit My Eyes are looking straight ahead and the center of the screen is Eye level... only thing i Really need to add to it is some Rake in the Pedals... Pedals are positioned good but Now that i have the Fanatec CCS SQ Shifter im going to work on making a Pedal plate this week while I'm on vacation to add some rake to the Pedals...Ooooh...The Hand brake came yesterday I'm putting it on Now..Its a nice Piece of kit!!! LOL

take a look at the Pic one of the Biggest reasons i have not bought a rig yet is that when i finely buy 1 i havent figured out where I'm Going to put all my stuff??? everything is on there PS4,PS3,XB1,XB360,2x buttkicker amps and PC and everything is hooked up ready to go!!! .When i built this set up i built it to be modular and expandable to hold all my equipment..That's the Big Draw back for me and a Rig i have to rearrange everything...That's really a big part that's holding me back.
Just buy the rift grimey or buy sony new vr or what ever its called, Then you be set don't know if you going more on the pc side or both but that's what I do save money. one tv would be the price of the RIFT or VR anyway TV probably be more

GrimeyDog
13-02-2016, 05:41
Just buy the rift grimey go one tv and buy sony new vr two or what ever its called, Then you be set don't know if you going more on the pc side or both but that's what I do save money. one tv would be the price of the RIFT or VR anyway TV probably be more

i just bought that Samsung 48in UHD Curved Tv for the man Kave on Black Friday and its only for gaming i haven't watched a hour of TV or movie on it yet...LOL... the other 28 Samsung is what i watch tv on...but thats the least of the worrys the Obutto comes with a full list of assortments including a TV stand that will hold the 48in...its i dunno where i would put everything else...there are 4 consoles in that pic...its just dark and they are not lit up but they are there plus the games and PC...

Im going to wait the Price out for now...Im figuring since the N1 dropped it probably wont sell well at $1,250 + tax + shipping that's about $1,650--->US they will more than likely drop the price on the RS1 because they will have to drop the $$$ of the N1 soon if they want to sell more than just a few of them...if they dont drop the prices by the spring time i will just order my gaming PC and continue to wait it out because as it is My set up is really comfortable and its very functional storage and space wise... I can mod it to fit anything with No $$$ spent and minimal effort LOL.

For me to Buy i need the RS1 to come down to about $650 to $700 and only 700 if they throwing in the works like their doing with the Obutto revolution...The obutto is a Fair Price $769,00 because they pretty much throwing everything in with it but the 3x monitor stand which i don't need or want any way...But even that should price drop because the tax plus shipping puts it just a few $$$ short of $1,000 us and that's just too much for a rig when i am racing comfortably in the set up i use... i could better spend the $$$ buying a new high end gaming PC... I want to be able to race on all 3 platforms....

Just finished the hand brake install on my seat...wooohooo and im on vacation!!!

Haiden
13-02-2016, 06:00
take a look at the Pic one of the Biggest reasons i have not bought a rig yet is that when i finely buy 1 i havent figured out where I'm Going to put all my stuff??? everything is on there PS4,PS3,XB1,XB360,2x buttkicker amps and PC and everything is hooked up ready to go!!! .When i built this set up i built it to be modular and expandable to hold all my equipment..That's the Big Draw back for me and a Rig i have to rearrange everything...That's really a big part that's holding me back.

Yeah.. that would make it a much bigger project. Bit of a pain in the butt, and would probably leave you feeling disorganized for a while.

GrimeyDog
13-02-2016, 06:43
LOL... Does any 1 know if Pcars even supports the Fanatec Hand brake??? i cant seem tho map it as a button.

gotdirt410sprintcar
13-02-2016, 07:42
I don't think it does YET new drift car you think it will be. You cant select the hand brake in controller conf, then pull back on it nothing happens?

GrimeyDog
13-02-2016, 08:13
Nope i cant even map it to a Button...some one said that if i plug the V3 pedals into the PS4 directly with the hand Brake i can Map and use it...that its Not recognized when the pedals are connected through the wheel... that sucks... i guess i will have to order the USB plug from fnatec so i can plug the hand brake in Directly to the USB Hub and Map it that way...that sucks...LOL

Mascot
13-02-2016, 11:08
Quick question: I need a quick and easy fix to dial out about 10 degrees of 'slack' around the wheel when centred, ie driving straight, start to turn, wheel has five degrees of resistance-free motion before any resistance/FFB forces are felt. Any tips?
PS4, Fanatec CSR Elite.
Ta peeps.

PureMalt77
13-02-2016, 11:35
Quick question: I need a quick and easy fix to dial out about 10 degrees of 'slack' around the wheel when centred, ie driving straight, start to turn, wheel has five degrees of resistance-free motion before any resistance/FFB forces are felt. Any tips?
PS4, Fanatec CSR Elite.
Ta peeps.
With TM gear I deal with that with DDR.

morpwr
13-02-2016, 14:41
Yes exactly... The Wheel Weight Pulls in the Opposte direction causing the wheel to Lose FFB Resistance and Freely Turn in the Direction your allready Turning...

Its just being decribed from 2 diff perspectives

You talking about wheel Feel getting Lighter in the Direction your turning... This is Correct

JS is talking the physics and where the wheel weight gets transferd to when these events happen.... His description is also Correct.

jack states when the rear steps out it pulls the wheel in the opposite direction.... He probably meant to say the opposite direction "your turning in" and left out the few words being brief with the summary....its the only thing that makes sense...as any 1 that drives knows when you lose traction that the wheel gets light in the direction your tuning....well at least i hope so:D

I'm going to go with that. We are talking the same things different ways. I hope so too. lol But in jacks defense I will say I tried his sop lat setups again last night. I haven't used these since probably patch 3 or 4 as they always felt really wrong to me. They aren't like they used to be anymore. It still adds a feeling that feels odd to me when the back steps out but not horrible by any means. Just different.

morpwr
13-02-2016, 14:42
I've been thinking about buying a rig for some time now but they are just priced Too dam High!!! Im going to wait it out a bit longer for a price drop...the RS1 should drop now that the n1 is out.. If they drop it to $699.00 or $799.00 but include all the extras, key board holder, Shifter mount ETC Like Obutto has done with the Obutto Revolution, it comes with almost everything for $769.00 even a single TV stand that can hold my 48in...I was debating what i wanted to get first New gaming Pc or Rig...Now that the N1 Dropped I'm gonna hold out a few more weeks to see if they go on sale and if they Go on sale i will order 1 but if they don't i will Buy the new gaming PC first and Keep checking for the price drop or sale.

The set up i use now is Very comfortable and i built it to fit and feel like I'm in my 350z... Very comfortable for all day racing... The seat is from a Subaru Impreza ...Wheel Height is adjusted for maximum arm Comfort and driving position, TV height has also been adjusted so that when i sit My Eyes are looking straight ahead and the center of the screen is Eye level... only thing i Really need to add to it is some Rake in the Pedals... Pedals are positioned good but Now that i have the Fanatec CCS SQ Shifter im going to work on making a Pedal plate this week while I'm on vacation to add some rake to the Pedals...Ooooh...The Hand brake came yesterday I'm putting it on Now..Its a nice Piece of kit!!! LOL

take a look at the Pic one of the Biggest reasons i have not bought a rig yet is that when i finely buy 1 i havent figured out where I'm Going to put all my stuff??? everything is on there PS4,PS3,XB1,XB360,2x buttkicker amps and PC and everything is hooked up ready to go!!! .When i built this set up i built it to be modular and expandable to hold all my equipment..That's the Big Draw back for me and a Rig i have to rearrange everything...That's really a big part that's holding me back.

Do you really need a living room?lol

gotdirt410sprintcar
13-02-2016, 14:51
my set up

gruzzlebeard
13-02-2016, 16:34
Howdie guys,

Did you notice that the Global FFB has no impact anymore on PS4? It doesn't matter if I dialed in "0" or "100" I get always the same feedback on my wheel. In patch 7 it worked but now not anymore.

"Bavarian Turbo" experienced it too and draw my attention to that. I tested with my current gamer profile. FFB 0 but feedback on the wheel. Deleted game and online storage profile, calibrated the wheel with standard settings but FFB "0" and still noticeable feedback on the wheel.

SMS could you confirm and comment on that?

morpwr
13-02-2016, 17:06
Howdie guys,

Did you notice that the Global FFB has no impact anymore on PS4? It doesn't matter if I dialed in "0" or "100" I get always the same feedback on my wheel. In patch 7 it worked but now not anymore.

"Bavarian Turbo" experienced it too and draw my attention to that. I tested with my current gamer profile. FFB 0 but feedback on the wheel. Deleted game and online storage profile, calibrated the wheel with standard settings but FFB "0" and still noticeable feedback on the wheel.

SMS could you confirm and comment on that?

Mine definitely works on the ps4. I was playing with that last night. Ive never turned it all the way down to see if there is any ffb left but it definitely changes even at single numbers. I just noticed you have a fanatic wheel. Don't you adjust it at the wheel? Where the in game wouldn't work because of that. Like a pc set ffb master at 100 and forget about it? Maybe grimey or Haiden can jump in here I'm sure they will know.

Fight-Test
13-02-2016, 17:43
Mine works also, had to drop it 20 after patch because of increases in force. I was at 80 anyway so needed to drop.

gruzzlebeard
13-02-2016, 17:52
Mine definitely works on the ps4. I was playing with that last night. Ive never turned it all the way down to see if there is any ffb left but it definitely changes even at single numbers. I just noticed you have a fanatic wheel. Don't you adjust it at the wheel? Where the in game wouldn't work because of that. Like a pc set ffb master at 100 and forget about it? Maybe grimey or Haiden can jump in here I'm sure they will know.
Thanks for the feedback. Yes It could be that for CSW V2 users SMS switched the FFB off / or fixed it on value "50" what is the standard value when calibrating. However SMS should inform us because many CSW user are using individual in-game FFB values e.g. GrimeyDog is using "35".


Mine works also, had to drop it 20 after patch because of increases in force. I was at 80 anyway so needed to drop.
Are you using a CSW V2?

Haiden
13-02-2016, 18:48
Howdie guys,

Did you notice that the Global FFB has no impact anymore on PS4? It doesn't matter if I dialed in "0" or "100" I get always the same feedback on my wheel. In patch 7 it worked but now not anymore.

"Bavarian Turbo" experienced it too and draw my attention to that. I tested with my current gamer profile. FFB 0 but feedback on the wheel. Deleted game and online storage profile, calibrated the wheel with standard settings but FFB "0" and still noticeable feedback on the wheel.

SMS could you confirm and comment on that?

That only happens with the Fanatec wheel on PS4. If you do it on Xb1, it behaves just like the other wheels (FF@0 = no force). Not sure why it's like that. Also, not sure if it's limited to the CSW-v2.

tennenbaum
13-02-2016, 21:18
Howdie guys,

Did you notice that the Global FFB has no impact anymore on PS4? It doesn't matter if I dialed in "0" or "100" I get always the same feedback on my wheel. In patch 7 it worked but now not anymore.

"Bavarian Turbo" experienced it too and draw my attention to that. I tested with my current gamer profile. FFB 0 but feedback on the wheel. Deleted game and online storage profile, calibrated the wheel with standard settings but FFB "0" and still noticeable feedback on the wheel.

SMS could you confirm and comment on that?

nothing changed with my ps4/t300

poirqc
13-02-2016, 21:24
That only happens with the Fanatec wheel on PS4. If you do it on Xb1, it behaves just like the other wheels (FF@0 = no force). Not sure why it's like that. Also, not sure if it's limited to the CSW-v2.

It may probably only affect wheel with built-in memory that saves drivers settings.

tennenbaum
13-02-2016, 21:36
Hi all, I have been following your discussion for a long time and done my own tests in parallel. I just want to add some aspect to the discussion.

I have found that messing with RAs can severely change wheel weight and cornering feel. This might be a reason for the differing FFB experiences of different users. I found that I actually like the FFB feel without RA and SC quite well on my T300 on PS4. Caveat is that you have to lower tire force to avoid clipping, but to me this not a problem because I prefer a light FFB anyway (need to do 1 hour online races without exhaustion).

My last tests have been at Watkins Glen with the Aston Martin Vantage GT4. No RA, no SC, TF 45 to avoid clipping. Use SG or FFB to adjust strength, for me on PS4 FFB 75 Sg 1.0 works fine. In-car I tried JS classic, JS with SoP and SMS default, all felt ok.

After some experiments I have gone back to use some RA (.9,.04,.96), which gives a slightly lighter and at the same time more dynamic feel, but with a very low RAB so that the absolute part dominates and RA wears off quickly (just a pinch of RA-salt on the already good RA-less FFB-meal ;)). But I suggest testing without RA to get a feeling if strange effects come from the initial FFB data or from RA settings.

Anyone want to try it and share their thoughts?


yep. rab 0.04 gives great granular sharpness and detail. most poeple don't even give it a try... you described very well what happens when you set it this low... chapeau! you belong to the few who really seem to experiment based on solid skills to judge and then trust in their findings!

morpwr
14-02-2016, 13:16
yep. rab 0.04 gives great granular sharpness and detail. most poeple don't even give it a try... you described very well what happens when you set it this low... chapeau! you belong to the few who really seem to experiment based on solid skills to judge and then trust in their findings!

I actually figured that out a few weeks ago. Was running out of things to adjust and turned it down to see what happened. I knew turning it up made it feel grabby and it feels like a better brake feel but its not. Its the wheel hanging after you step on the brake. I'm at .03 and really like it lower. I'm sure like all the adjustments it varies between wheels but with a t300 I wouldnt run it higher than the .04.

gotdirt410sprintcar
14-02-2016, 14:00
I just tried something new last night NORMAL sensitivity on the wheel feels so much better not so sensitivity in the center. FFB even feels better time to just race and get the in car settings good

Tiberius_85
14-02-2016, 14:36
I am now down to RAG 0.6 RAB 0.03 RAC 0.85 after some more tests. Quite low, but feels fine to me.

SGETI
14-02-2016, 17:07
When you have a problem that you can not solve you seek advice from the experts. That is were I am right now. Off subject, yet many of you i consider experts. here is my issue.
No luck racing today. Keep getting disc. again. I never had any major issues with Disc until yesterday. Sure every once in a while I would lose connection, but nothing to serious.

I have reset my modem, manually changed the MDU setting and danced in a counter clockwise circle while coughing and holding my balls, still no good. Out of ideas. Makes no difference if I join a room or set up my own room. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

A cold and lazy Sunday and all i would like to do is enjoy a few laps of fun.

PureMalt77
14-02-2016, 17:36
When you have a problem that you can not solve you seek advice from the experts. That is were I am right now. Off subject, yet many of you i consider experts. here is my issue.
No luck racing today. Keep getting disc. again. I never had any major issues with Disc until yesterday. Sure every once in a while I would lose connection, but nothing to serious.

I have reset my modem, manually changed the MDU setting and danced in a counter clockwise circle while coughing and holding my balls, still no good. Out of ideas. Makes no difference if I join a room or set up my own room. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

A cold and lazy Sunday and all i would like to do is enjoy a few laps of fun.

How is your console connected, WiFi or cable? Strongly recommend cable if you can, as not only my console sits a bit far from the router, I have just too many devices in the house sharing the net, and to complicate things, telemetry apps over UDP.
In my case, I bought a power line adapter to bring the internet to the room, works like a charm...

SGETI
14-02-2016, 17:38
connected via cable

Haiden
14-02-2016, 19:24
connected via cable

Have you recently started using any dash apps, or changed any settings in any apps you're using?

Have you tested/checked your router to rule that out?

tennenbaum
14-02-2016, 19:52
Quote Originally Posted by Jack Spade View Post
How is that possible then? When the rear steps out itīs side load force pulling that you feel on your wheel no matter if pure Fy or any SopLat mix. The steering wheel is coupled to front axle/tires
and I donīt see a plausible reason why FFB should become light in such a situation. The wheel only becomes light if you loose a lot of grip on the front tires under heavy braking and tires locking.
On the other side Sop is purely a FFB thing, but it is derived from car/tire physics, from the rear of the car, is translated into a usable FFB signal on a steering wheel.



Jack that is not true. Any time the rear of a car rotates around the front tires the wheel gets lighter. Ive done it many times in real life.:D That's what ive been trying to say sop lat should subtract when the rear end steps out not add weight to the wheel. Using classic settings it works just as it should. Back end steps out wheel gets lighter . Wouldn't mz go away as the rear end rotated around the front tires? I think that's correct reason. All I know is in real life the wheel gets lighter that's what lets you know youre on the edge or pushing too hard as the rear gets loose.

I wasn't sure if i shall comment on that post. If real driving experiences get involved things get tricky...

Basically i think JS is right: the moment the rear steps out, the wheel gets heavier. Let me be precise: E.g. you take a right hand corner, rear gets loose and steps to the left (view from behind the car), the steering wheel pushes counter-clockwise. Considering that you got a counter-clockwise pushing already anyway from Fy, Mz, etc., the fact that car moves around the pinion (pulling the rack counterclockwise) while tires try to keep direction, adds extra load to the wheel. That's just real physics and the game actually simulates that. You can easily test that with the Radbul by flooring the throttle and test to where the steering wheel pulls, when the rear gets loose. The wheels turns into the same direction the rear of the car goes. Thus initiating (kind of automatically) the counter-steering.

THOUGH, you can only test that behavior with the Radbul or other cars, when you go with the car pretty straight when the rear gets loose. When it happens while you're cornering already, it's almost impossible IMO to detect properly what's going on.

Why?

When it happens while you're already on your circular line in the curve, you will correct an outstepping rear instinctively so very fast, that there is no time left that this counter-steering force resulting from true physics as described above could build up long enough you could actually feel it. In other words, you correct faster as the FFB (and forces in the real world) build up counter-pushing torque to the steering wheel.

I tested it in reality during a kart race yesterday.

It was impossible (for me) to detect and judge during easygoing qualifying and during the race the effects as they happen as described above. In reality it was the same as in the game, the moment oversteer happens you correct so fast (kind of hard-wired, or better said "seat of pants-wired":D, that there is no time left you could confirm the effect and true physics that JS is correct about it.

People who don't counter-steer instinctively, or you force yourself to act the same way, can't detect the the counterpush properly either (wheel getting heavier when rear steps out) because when you miss that very quick moment to counter-steer actively and you're hitting the corner, any kind of "counterpush" / "heavier wheel" gets masked by to many other forces being at work...

Briefly: JS is IMO right. The fact that you don't feel the wheel getting heavier during the sliding phase of the oversteer doesn't proof JS wrong. He talks about "the initial moment" when the rear steps out / gets loose.

However, when you say while oversteering the wheel gets lighter, i agree (and JS would probably agree as well), just that very quick moment later AFTER the initial moment of the rear steeping out happened. After that moment - when you are in stage 2 of the drift/oversteer - the wheel indeed feels lighter, due to your correction of the oversteer, now that you turned the tires outbound, thus reducing Mz and Fy...

SGETI
14-02-2016, 19:53
I use Pcar dash and crew chief. I started using them apx 3 weeks ago. The problem only started yesterday. No changes to the apps.

Re booted router, all works fine except pcars.

GrimeyDog
14-02-2016, 21:03
I use Pcar dash and crew chief. I started using them apx 3 weeks ago. The problem only started yesterday. No changes to the apps.

Re booted router, all works fine except pcars.

Its probably a PSN issue in your area...Check the PSN web site for details about server outages.... also because its sooo cold and its the weekend with Most kids/Teacher out of School there maybe More people on the PSN severs than usual this can also be causing the Issues.... Also you should do a speed test on your Network... www.speedtest.net to make sure that your internet is moving fast enough... Some times your internet slows down and your internet provider wont make mention of it... you will have enough to get on line but Not enough speed to maintain a decent online connection.

PureMalt77
14-02-2016, 21:16
Lots of folks r complaining, seems to me PSN issue, also other games involved. I haven't played online this weekend so cannot assess...

poirqc
14-02-2016, 21:54
I wasn't sure if i shall comment on that post. If real driving experiences get involved things get tricky...

Basically i think JS is right: the moment the rear steps out, the wheel gets heavier. Let me be precise: E.g. you take a right hand corner, rear gets loose and steps to the left (view from behind the car), the steering wheel pushes counter-clockwise. Considering that you got a counter-clockwise pushing already anyway from Fy, Mz, etc., the fact that car moves around the pinion (pulling the rack counterclockwise) while tires try to keep direction, adds extra load to the wheel. That's just real physics and the game actually simulates that. You can easily test that with the Radbul by flooring the throttle and test to where the steering wheel pulls, when the rear gets loose. The wheels turns into the same direction the rear of the car goes. Thus initiating (kind of automatically) the counter-steering.

THOUGH, you can only test that behavior with the Radbul or other cars, when you go with the car pretty straight when the rear gets loose. When it happens while you're cornering already, it's almost impossible IMO to detect properly what's going on.

Why?

When it happens while you're already on your circular line in the curve, you will correct an outstepping rear instinctively so very fast, that there is no time left that this counter-steering force resulting from true physics as described above could build up long enough you could actually feel it. In other words, you correct faster as the FFB (and forces in the real world) build up counter-pushing torque to the steering wheel.

I tested it in reality during a kart race yesterday.

It was impossible (for me) to detect and judge during easygoing qualifying and during the race the effects as they happen as described above. In reality it was the same as in the game, the moment oversteer happens you correct so fast (kind of hard-wired, or better said "seat of pants-wired":D, that there is no time left you could confirm the effect and true physics that JS is correct about it.

People who don't counter-steer instinctively, or you force yourself to act the same way, can't detect the the counterpush properly either (wheel getting heavier when rear steps out) because when you miss that very quick moment to counter-steer actively and you're hitting the corner, any kind of "counterpush" / "heavier wheel" gets masked by to many other forces being at work...

Briefly: JS is IMO right. The fact that you don't feel the wheel getting heavier during the sliding phase of the oversteer doesn't proof JS wrong. He talks about "the initial moment" when the rear steps out / gets loose.

However, when you say while oversteering the wheel gets lighter, i agree (and JS would probably agree as well), just that very quick moment later AFTER the initial moment of the rear steeping out happened. After that moment - when you are in stage 2 of the drift/oversteer - the wheel indeed feels lighter, due to your correction of the oversteer, now that you turned the tires outbound, thus reducing Mz and Fy...

I'm eager to go karting again. It's winter here. Indoor tracks are far away. I think i'll need to go again before i'll be able to tune my FFB again. Karting made me leave sim racing the first time. It's funny to think that Karting will make me come back to sim racing! :D

SGETI
14-02-2016, 21:58
ping 9ms

DL 47.98mbps

UL 38.42mbps

Do you like these numbers? Do you see an issue? Dam kids, Why don't they go outside and play.

PureMalt77
14-02-2016, 22:38
yep. rab 0.04 gives great granular sharpness and detail. most poeple don't even give it a try... you described very well what happens when you set it this low... chapeau! you belong to the few who really seem to experiment based on solid skills to judge and then trust in their findings!
Good tip tennenbaum & Tiberius. Reduced RAB from default 0.10 to 0.05 and is nice. More than that caused clipping with the rest of my setup, but will investigate further. BTW my settings in my signature if anyone wanna try...

morpwr
14-02-2016, 23:17
I wasn't sure if i shall comment on that post. If real driving experiences get involved things get tricky...

Basically i think JS is right: the moment the rear steps out, the wheel gets heavier. Let me be precise: E.g. you take a right hand corner, rear gets loose and steps to the left (view from behind the car), the steering wheel pushes counter-clockwise. Considering that you got a counter-clockwise pushing already anyway from Fy, Mz, etc., the fact that car moves around the pinion (pulling the rack counterclockwise) while tires try to keep direction, adds extra load to the wheel. That's just real physics and the game actually simulates that. You can easily test that with the Radbul by flooring the throttle and test to where the steering wheel pulls, when the rear gets loose. The wheels turns into the same direction the rear of the car goes. Thus initiating (kind of automatically) the counter-steering.

THOUGH, you can only test that behavior with the Radbul or other cars, when you go with the car pretty straight when the rear gets loose. When it happens while you're cornering already, it's almost impossible IMO to detect properly what's going on.

Why?

When it happens while you're already on your circular line in the curve, you will correct an outstepping rear instinctively so very fast, that there is no time left that this counter-steering force resulting from true physics as described above could build up long enough you could actually feel it. In other words, you correct faster as the FFB (and forces in the real world) build up counter-pushing torque to the steering wheel.

I tested it in reality during a kart race yesterday.

It was impossible (for me) to detect and judge during easygoing qualifying and during the race the effects as they happen as described above. In reality it was the same as in the game, the moment oversteer happens you correct so fast (kind of hard-wired, or better said "seat of pants-wired":D, that there is no time left you could confirm the effect and true physics that JS is correct about it.

People who don't counter-steer instinctively, or you force yourself to act the same way, can't detect the the counterpush properly either (wheel getting heavier when rear steps out) because when you miss that very quick moment to counter-steer actively and you're hitting the corner, any kind of "counterpush" / "heavier wheel" gets masked by to many other forces being at work...

Briefly: JS is IMO right. The fact that you don't feel the wheel getting heavier during the sliding phase of the oversteer doesn't proof JS wrong. He talks about "the initial moment" when the rear steps out / gets loose.

However, when you say while oversteering the wheel gets lighter, i agree (and JS would probably agree as well), just that very quick moment later AFTER the initial moment of the rear steeping out happened. After that moment - when you are in stage 2 of the drift/oversteer - the wheel indeed feels lighter, due to your correction of the oversteer, now that you turned the tires outbound, thus reducing Mz and Fy...

Your comments are always welcome with me. As always your descriptions are great. Put like that I would agree and yes that could be part of the problem I'm just reacting to what I know my hands are telling me. So it seems neither myself or jack was exactly getting what the other was saying because of the way we where saying it. Hopefully no hard feelings on his end as there are none here and I'm sure everyone appreciates him stopping by the forum.

GrimeyDog
14-02-2016, 23:24
ping 9ms

DL 47.98mbps

UL 38.42mbps

Do you like these numbers? Do you see an issue? Dam kids, Why don't they go outside and play.

Those numbers are really good must be a problem with PSN.

tennenbaum
15-02-2016, 07:08
Good tip tennenbaum & Tiberius. Reduced RAB from default 0.10 to 0.05 and is nice. More than that caused clipping with the rest of my setup, but will investigate further. BTW my settings in my signature if anyone wanna try...

yes, it's very likely that you face clipping at first when you dial in lower RAB settings.

Reason: with faster RAB the 'overlaying' RAG goes away faster and the original signal "comes back". so the original signal leads to clipping if it was set in a way that it clipps in general without the use of RAC. you can test it if you switch the RAG module completely off.

So if you like "fast" RAB (meaning < 0.1) your signals coming from the tires (Fxyzm) multiplied by Tireforce (TF) and multiplied by SpindleMasterScale shouldn't be too high. Because with fast RAB RAC only works for shorter moments as well, thus RAC doesn't work as a soft limiter as much as with 'longer' RAB. The reason is that RAC limits the derived signal that RAG 'generates' from the original signal, not the original signal itself.

So when people use longer RAB (>0.08) the effect is that the RAG signal is longer "at work" than the original signal during a given timeframe, therfore almost completely masking (overlaying) the original signal. So now that the RAG signal is limited by RAC into the "normalized" signal strength corridor, it "hides" the fact, that your original signal would have been clipping without the use of RAC. And since RAC is at work only while RAG is (before bled out by RAB), with higher RAB values more limiting by RAC happens. Shorter RAB leaves RAC less time to limit the RAG signal, thus more of the original signal finds it way into the mix of both curves.

confusing?! :p

Picture two signal curves at the same time. One is the original input/output curve, the other is the RAG curve. The RAG curve is limited by RAC, while the original curve isn't limited by RAC. Now imagine that RAB switches back and forth between original curve and RAG curve. The faster you set RAB (e.g. with a fast 0.03) the more often the original curve is back in effect. In the end the "heaviness" of the wheel is the sum (saldo +/-) of both curves over time. The one curve that is more often in effect over time than the other one (think it time periods of e.g. 1-2 seconds) dominates the end result, which is a mix of both.

So when you like the "spicey-ness" of fast RAB (low RAB values) you must lower your tire forces so they don't clip. Or only a bit. test it by turning off the RAG module, then turn it back on. In so far fast RAB values are more likely to be liked by people who don't need a heavy wheel, while guys who want a heavy wheel can't use such low RAB values. there are workarounds (e.g. bmanic's settings) with the help of SCHI and SCFO but then it gets more complicated.

Sidenote: While it got mostly clear now how RAB and RAC works, it seems to me that the most unknown is still RAG. The official guide says RAG kind of alters the original signal by the change of torque over time. ... which is a mathematical first degree differential equation.

Though it's really dificult to explain the result of it. in one of my previous posts i did a handdrawing of the curves showing the effect of such math...

see graph here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1216123&viewfull=1#post1216123

let me try to explain it: RAG analysis if your original FFB signal (strength of counterpushing the wheel against your steering efforts) increases or decreases. This measurement is done many times per second. RAG measures how strong the increase or decrease is. RAG calculates a value that is either positive (increase) or negative (decrease) and higher or lower depending on how strong or weak the change within this little timeframe of measurement is. (torque change over time, instead an absolute value).

Now these RAG calculated values are added and deducted from the original signal many times a second. Doing so the original signal input/output curve gets altered in a way that the curve gets more "lively", literally more "differentiated", and most important the signal can't actually saturate. why? now it gets complicated. better look at the graphs... ;-) The value setting of RAG determines how strong RAG gets, with values higher than 1 possible, which can be normalized to =< 1 with the help of RAC and/or Softclipper.

Tiberius_85
15-02-2016, 13:39
Uh nice, I overlooked this graph the first time you posted it, thanks for the link. I'm going to try to understand it.

On a side note, I'm a mathematician and still find it difficult to understand the many aspects of the FFB system. No wonder sms doesn't have a good guide to it, it might be too complicated to explain it in easy terms anyway. Seems more like a lecture series would be needed. ;) With tons of graphs and formulas. Oh, how I would like to see the actual formulas used in FFB calculation... This would make things much clearer.

tennenbaum
15-02-2016, 17:23
Uh nice, I overlooked this graph the first time you posted it, thanks for the link. I'm going to try to understand it.

On a side note, I'm a mathematician and still find it difficult to understand the many aspects of the FFB system. No wonder sms doesn't have a good guide to it, it might be too complicated to explain it in easy terms anyway. Seems more like a lecture series would be needed. ;) With tons of graphs and formulas. Oh, how I would like to see the actual formulas used in FFB calculation... This would make things much clearer.

So true, if SMS had just spend a couple of days to lay out the basics of their signal chain, even in quite abstract terms, all that guessing and reverse engineering would have been obsolete. I started to take it as an elaborated puzzle and a funny and inspiring collaboration with people all over the planet with different backgrounds and ideas...

this thread is a nice tempered mix of different know how, practical guidance of guys who know their turf (...check out the PS4 TT rankings of Grimey, BigDad, Morpwr, Spacepadrille, gotdirt410sprintcar, Haiden and bmanic on PC..., inthebagbud on XB1, and not to forget poirqc and skoader) and easygoing personal insights. I guess without this forum i had put the game aside since a while ;-)

BigDad
16-02-2016, 12:41
tennenbaum Thanks for the mention ,lol
Whats your psn tag ?
If anyone was smart enough to be able to write a guide , i think it could only be you with cameo's from those individuals you metioned and SMS should pay you for your time .
I would be no were without you guys and my lap times and consistency would be crap . I just didn't / don't have the time , patients or brain power to figure it out
So thankyou .

tennenbaum
16-02-2016, 15:14
tennenbaum Thanks for the mention ,lol
Whats your psn tag ?
If anyone was smart enough to be able to write a guide , i think it could only be you with cameo's from those individuals you metioned and SMS should pay you for your time .
I would be no were without you guys and my lap times and consistency would be crap . I just didn't / don't have the time , patients or brain power to figure it out
So thankyou .

:D

miraculix99

just can't get into the 1.07.xxx zone on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 stock. :orange: Did a 1.08.22x in free practice, and a 1.08.8xx TT, but consistently only between 1.09.xxx and 1.09.5xx
The moment i crack it i give you all a heads up, and we do a pCars1 memorial race, when pCars2 comes out :D

BTW: last sunday i tested Grimeys, bmanics, JS and the SMS default settings against each other. ...and, surprise to me, was fastest with Grimey's. (No placebo).

Even while i find his setting "extravagant". He choose a setting that i wouldn't necessarily choose... So, admittedly, it's funny i like his setting and i'm a little faster (about ø 0.3") than with the others. The ones who followed my posts know, that i kind of find it strange how Fz (inverse for most cars) comes into effect in the mix. In so far it's even more surprising to me that Grimey's mix works this well. I can't explain it! :D So practical experience beats theory! Grimey's FFB setting is the one that challenges me the most "to push" when i want to achieve fast lap times. With his setting racing is work...

I also like bmanics setting. He also has an exotic approach. With exotic i mean a much different fundamental approach by setting the tirforces really low, and giving the wheel weight and definition with a smart combination of RAG/RAB/RAC and SC. I found it immersive, but somehow it isn't ideal for me for fast laps.

While Grimey and bmanic settings stand for two extremes (Grimey with his approach of high tireforces, using the "invisible headroom" intensively (up to 5.0), and a lot of RAC soft-limiting, and practically no Fx and little Fy, and bmanic with his tiny tire forces lots of compression with SC and a relatively high steering gain), JS and SMS' default both have in common to keep the tire forces in a range not higher than approx. 1.8 - 1.9 before hitting RAG/RAB/RAC.

JS classic with SoP Diff... I was surprised... it feels good and i understand why a lot of people like it. It's "rich" and lively. But i was a bit confused how to "read" it. I guess i need much more time to learn what his setting tells me. Interestingly i find his setting technically the most logic in terms how to keep the signals in the "clean" corridor of the signal chain. The fact that he offers an alternative setting for lower end wheels with the use of Softclipper that feels basically similair shows that he knows the FFB very well. (Yet, he never really confirmed on the "invisible headroom" ;-) However, i have no clue how he comes to his individual in car Fxyzm mix settings...?

I'd love to believe that SMS knows best, thus setting the matrix to 100/100/100/100 and that would be pure, therefore un-altered and max driving experience and immersion. But it isn't, ...to me. I can be fast with that setting, but instead of "pure" it feels "unspecific" to me. Which puzzles me, because how is it possible that all the other settings feel better even that they all have fundamentally different Fxyzm settings...?? So the mystery about SMS' FFB goes on. And i find it remarkable that such different settings can all lead to very good FFB.

Still, i'm looking for an easygoing lighter "cruise control" setting that allows me to be fast and immersive with a better feel for weight changes and braking, without being too sloppy on straights.

inthebagbud
16-02-2016, 17:47
:D

So the mystery about SMS' FFB goes on. And i find it remarkable that such different settings can all lead to very good FFB.

.

Maybe the actual differences between all those settings are not that large and you cant fully feel them. As your post states and I have posted before you can basically run with any of the so called "standard" ffb settings and be within .5 sec of your best - that tells me the differences are very subtle and unless you have something that is totally wacko once you get used to them and read them you should be able to run at a good pace.

Some cars however do require fundamental changes - my setting posted previoulsy in thread , allthough on xbox, got me 1.07.8 on the Glen with the RUF , but I tried to use them with the BMW Turbo practicing for career on Imola and it was awful and I ended up using in car default and was straight off 3 sec faster

So yes it is a mystery but lake Lord Lucan and Shergar it will never be explained !

Haiden
16-02-2016, 19:23
Maybe the actual differences between all those settings are not that large and you cant fully feel them. As your post states and I have posted before you can basically run with any of the so called "standard" ffb settings and be within .5 sec of your best - that tells me the differences are very subtle and unless you have something that is totally wacko once you get used to them and read them you should be able to run at a good pace.

This is what I've come to realize, post 8.0. As far as settings go, there's a range where the changes don't really do much as far as lap times go. It may feel different, and, initially (first 3-7 laps), my times will be slightly worse or won't change much at all. But by the 10th lap, I start seeing my times come down. It's amazing how close I can get to my best laps after allowing myself time to settle into the new feel. It's kind of like I just need time to relearn the threshold sensations. As long as they are there, I can pretty much adjust to the tune. From there, what makes or breaks the tune for me is whether or not it feels realistic, and whether or not I can hit consistent times.

Sirchuzo
16-02-2016, 19:40
I may sound ignorant, but what in the world is FFB?

morpwr
16-02-2016, 19:43
All the feelings you get from your wheel. Bumps,weight shift,etc.

tennenbaum
16-02-2016, 19:54
I may sound ignorant, but what in the world is FFB?

Force Feed Back ;-)

ok, here is my question: i recently stumbled across "DOR". Whats DOR?

tennenbaum
16-02-2016, 19:57
Maybe the actual differences between all those settings are not that large and you cant fully feel them. As your post states and I have posted before you can basically run with any of the so called "standard" ffb settings and be within .5 sec of your best - that tells me the differences are very subtle and unless you have something that is totally wacko once you get used to them and read them you should be able to run at a good pace.

Some cars however do require fundamental changes - my setting posted previoulsy in thread , allthough on xbox, got me 1.07.8 on the Glen with the RUF , but I tried to use them with the BMW Turbo practicing for career on Imola and it was awful and I ended up using in car default and was straight off 3 sec faster

So yes it is a mystery but lake Lord Lucan and Shergar it will never be explained !

aah, mea culpa, you belong to the 1.07 club as well.... i'll edit my post. race on...:D

GrimeyDog
16-02-2016, 19:58
I may sound ignorant, but what in the world is FFB?
Never a dumb question in here... Feel Free to ask all questions and add your input.

FFB = Force Feed Back

GM FFB = Game Master FFB

it gets Redundent typing the Full Names so sooo much... LOL.. we Learned to shorten them with our own slang... LOL

inthebagbud
16-02-2016, 21:01
Force Feed Back ;-)

ok, here is my question: i recently stumbled across "DOR". Whats DOR?

Please sir I know that one "degrees of rotation" :yes:

inthebagbud
16-02-2016, 21:02
aah, mea culpa, you belong to the 1.07 club as well.... i'll edit my post. race on...:D

Forget ffb testing get racing:D did it once but can I do it again h'mm not too sure :victorious:

GrimeyDog
16-02-2016, 22:04
:D

miraculix99

just can't get into the 1.07.xxx zone on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 stock. :orange: Did a 1.08.22x in free practice, and a 1.08.8xx TT, but consistently only between 1.09.xxx and 1.09.5xx
The moment i crack it i give you all a heads up, and we do a pCars1 memorial race, when pCars2 comes out :D

BTW: last sunday i tested Grimeys, bmanics, JS and the SMS default settings against each other. ...and, surprise to me, was fastest with Grimey's. (No placebo).

Even while i find his setting "extravagant". He choose a setting that i wouldn't necessarily choose... So, admittedly, it's funny i like his setting and i'm a little faster (about ø 0.3") than with the others. The ones who followed my posts know, that i kind of find it strange how Fz (inverse for most cars) comes into effect in the mix. In so far it's even more surprising to me that Grimey's mix works this well. I can't explain it! :D So practical experience beats theory! Grimey's FFB setting is the one that challenges me the most "to push" when i want to achieve fast lap times. With his setting racing is work...

I also like bmanics setting. He also has an exotic approach. With exotic i mean a much different fundamental approach by setting the tirforces really low, and giving the wheel weight and definition with a smart combination of RAG/RAB/RAC and SC. I found it immersive, but somehow it isn't ideal for me for fast laps.

While Grimey and bmanic settings stand for two extremes (Grimey with his approach of high tireforces, using the "invisible headroom" intensively (up to 5.0), and a lot of RAC soft-limiting, and practically no Fx and little Fy, and bmanic with his tiny tire forces lots of compression with SC and a relatively high steering gain), JS and SMS' default both have in common to keep the tire forces in a range not higher than approx. 1.8 - 1.9 before hitting RAG/RAB/RAC.

JS classic with SoP Diff... I was surprised... it feels good and i understand why a lot of people like it. It's "rich" and lively. But i was a bit confused how to "read" it. I guess i need much more time to learn what his setting tells me. Interestingly i find his setting technically the most logic in terms how to keep the signals in the "clean" corridor of the signal chain. The fact that he offers an alternative setting for lower end wheels with the use of Softclipper that feels basically similair shows that he knows the FFB very well. (Yet, he never really confirmed on the "invisible headroom" ;-) However, i have no clue how he comes to his individual in car Fxyzm mix settings...?

I'd love to believe that SMS knows best, thus setting the matrix to 100/100/100/100 and that would be pure, therefore un-altered and max driving experience and immersion. But it isn't, ...to me. I can be fast with that setting, but instead of "pure" it feels "unspecific" to me. Which puzzles me, because how is it possible that all the other settings feel better even that they all have fundamentally different Fxyzm settings...?? So the mystery about SMS' FFB goes on. And i find it remarkable that such different settings can all lead to very good FFB.

Still, i'm looking for an easygoing lighter "cruise control" setting that allows me to be fast and immersive with a better feel for weight changes and braking, without being too sloppy on straights.

Remember i have been testing the FFB by Trial and error Lap after Lap( a few thousand laps at this point:indecisiveness:) looking for the best/ most Natural feel...When i set out to Create my feel it was based on feeling the smaller more subtle forces because that's what makes the biggest difference!!! Ex: if you can feel a slide when you first start to lose grip you have a much better chance of correcting it without losing too much time.... I find that 100 in car masters with lower Fx,Fy,etc settings give more subtle road feel.... The harsher FFB effects are going to be felt anyway but its the subtle finer feelings within those harsher forces that give the information and clearly define what the car is doing according to what your feeling... just like strong bass with No highs its just noise that is not defined... same with the FFB the stronger forces need to be balanced not to drown out the fine FFB effects because that is where the true FFB detail comes from... We all feel the crash...Boom!!! But if you could feel the Tires at the point they start losing grip (Tire Chatter) then you could prevent the crash before it happens:yes:

I think this is why you were able to get better laps with my tweek... its very sensitive to smaller forces that give you valuable information that will tell you to push or back off.... it is also very easy to set it for any wheel or strength level... i use 100 masters but really you can use masters at 50 or any # that feels right for you if 100 feels too strong... Reducing the masters reduces the FFB effects strength but the forces are still delivered the same just at a lower power level.

SoP i like the feel of because it allows me to throttle steer and keeps me informed about what the rear or the car is doing... it really allows me to push the car to the edge of Grip!!!

at the end of the day the best FFB is the 1 you are most familiar with

"I'd love to believe that SMS knows best, thus setting the matrix to 100/100/100/100 and that would be pure, therefore un-altered and max driving experience and immersion. But it isn't"

While the SMS defaults are pretty good now you described them well, they are very general and unspecific... I can Run Good laps with them but only on tracks that i know very well!!! running the default FFB I'm driving more from instinct than FFB Feel.... when i dont know the Track well with the default FFB its Very hard to maitain speed in the corners...to me the default FFB cornering feel is too light with not enough information about tire grip level.

GrimeyDog
16-02-2016, 22:47
02/16/16 New PDF

Small changes and Notes added for relative system.

Every update gets better and better!!! upped to Fx "10" the FFB is really feeling dialed in and better balanced

GrimeyDog
16-02-2016, 23:06
This is what I've come to realize, post 8.0. As far as settings go, there's a range where the changes don't really do much as far as lap times go. It may feel different, and, initially (first 3-7 laps), my times will be slightly worse or won't change much at all. But by the 10th lap, I start seeing my times come down. It's amazing how close I can get to my best laps after allowing myself time to settle into the new feel. It's kind of like I just need time to relearn the threshold sensations. As long as they are there, I can pretty much adjust to the tune. From there, what makes or breaks the tune for me is whether or not it feels realistic, and whether or not I can hit consistent times.

Try testing wheel Turning Feel on Rouen Les Essarts short!!!... That is a great track to test turning feel on because its very fast bumpy and your tires love to skip around and lose road contact/Feel... you really need good road, cornering feel to get through that track fast.... its much more difficult than Watkins Glen!!!

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 01:12
with 9.0 Pcars feels better than ever!!! Pcars hasn't felt this good since 6.0!!! the Good feel is back...and even better than before!!!

Edit:9.0 feels sooo good that i will refuse to update to 10.0 if the feel changes!!!

The tweek Feels better than Ever!!! its like it was with 6.0 but smoother!!!

I will begin a hostile leader board take over in 3, 2, 1:yes:

the FFB feels great!!! and I'm on Vacation all week to Enjoy it:cool:

morpwr
17-02-2016, 01:13
yes, it's very likely that you face clipping at first when you dial in lower RAB settings.

Reason: with faster RAB the 'overlaying' RAG goes away faster and the original signal "comes back". so the original signal leads to clipping if it was set in a way that it clipps in general without the use of RAC. you can test it if you switch the RAG module completely off.

So if you like "fast" RAB (meaning < 0.1) your signals coming from the tires (Fxyzm) multiplied by Tireforce (TF) and multiplied by SpindleMasterScale shouldn't be too high. Because with fast RAB RAC only works for shorter moments as well, thus RAC doesn't work as a soft limiter as much as with 'longer' RAB. The reason is that RAC limits the derived signal that RAG 'generates' from the original signal, not the original signal itself.

So when people use longer RAB (>0.08) the effect is that the RAG signal is longer "at work" than the original signal during a given timeframe, therfore almost completely masking (overlaying) the original signal. So now that the RAG signal is limited by RAC into the "normalized" signal strength corridor, it "hides" the fact, that your original signal would have been clipping without the use of RAC. And since RAC is at work only while RAG is (before bled out by RAB), with higher RAB values more limiting by RAC happens. Shorter RAB leaves RAC less time to limit the RAG signal, thus more of the original signal finds it way into the mix of both curves.

confusing?! :p

Picture two signal curves at the same time. One is the original input/output curve, the other is the RAG curve. The RAG curve is limited by RAC, while the original curve isn't limited by RAC. Now imagine that RAB switches back and forth between original curve and RAG curve. The faster you set RAB (e.g. with a fast 0.03) the more often the original curve is back in effect. In the end the "heaviness" of the wheel is the sum (saldo +/-) of both curves over time. The one curve that is more often in effect over time than the other one (think it time periods of e.g. 1-2 seconds) dominates the end result, which is a mix of both.

So when you like the "spicey-ness" of fast RAB (low RAB values) you must lower your tire forces so they don't clip. Or only a bit. test it by turning off the RAG module, then turn it back on. In so far fast RAB values are more likely to be liked by people who don't need a heavy wheel, while guys who want a heavy wheel can't use such low RAB values. there are workarounds (e.g. bmanic's settings) with the help of SCHI and SCFO but then it gets more complicated.

Sidenote: While it got mostly clear now how RAB and RAC works, it seems to me that the most unknown is still RAG. The official guide says RAG kind of alters the original signal by the change of torque over time. ... which is a mathematical first degree differential equation.

Though it's really dificult to explain the result of it. in one of my previous posts i did a handdrawing of the curves showing the effect of such math...

see graph here: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1216123&viewfull=1#post1216123

let me try to explain it: RAG analysis if your original FFB signal (strength of counterpushing the wheel against your steering efforts) increases or decreases. This measurement is done many times per second. RAG measures how strong the increase or decrease is. RAG calculates a value that is either positive (increase) or negative (decrease) and higher or lower depending on how strong or weak the change within this little timeframe of measurement is. (torque change over time, instead an absolute value).

Now these RAG calculated values are added and deducted from the original signal many times a second. Doing so the original signal input/output curve gets altered in a way that the curve gets more "lively", literally more "differentiated", and most important the signal can't actually saturate. why? now it gets complicated. better look at the graphs... ;-) The value setting of RAG determines how strong RAG gets, with values higher than 1 possible, which can be normalized to =< 1 with the help of RAC and/or Softclipper.

As always great post. After reading it I had to go back and check to see if I was clipping now. Being I haven't had the ffb hud on in a few weeks and have finally been trying new tracks and cars. Sure enough it was. Not a lot but still clipping. So I figure no big deal just turn down the gain until it doesn't clip and turn the ffb master up to make up for it. Worked just like I thought. Odd part was it made understeering really obvious now. It was there before but not this clear. Which brings up the question why did turning gain down enhance the understeer feeling. That I wouldn't have expected. It almost seems to me at this point the wheel settings are more important than how you use the car ffb as long as you don't go crazy. So many ways of getting good but different ffb. Seems we are in the same boat with that elusive 1.07 lol. Ive got down to 1.08.18. Don't think ill ever get grimeys 1.06 hes flyin to do that!

morpwr
17-02-2016, 01:16
with 9.0 Pcars feels better than ever!!! Pcars hasn't felt this good since 6.0!!!he Good feel is back...and even better than before!!!

Edit:9.0 feels sooo good that i will refuse to update to 10.0 if the feel changes!!!

The tweek Feels better than Ever!!! its like it was with 6.0 but smoother!!!

I will begin a hostile leader board take over in 3, 2, 1:yes:

the FFB feels great!!! and I'm on Vacation all week to Enjoy it:cool:

That just wrong grimey. You need to take the week off so we can catch up! lol

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 01:44
As always great post. After reading it I had to go back and check to see if I was clipping now. Being I haven't had the ffb hud on in a few weeks and have finally been trying new tracks and cars. Sure enough it was. Not a lot but still clipping. So I figure no big deal just turn down the gain until it doesn't clip and turn the ffb master up to make up for it. Worked just like I thought. Odd part was it made understeering really obvious now. It was there before but not this clear. Which brings up the question why did turning gain down enhance the understeer feeling. That I wouldn't have expected. It almost seems to me at this point the wheel settings are more important than how you use the car ffb as long as you don't go crazy. So many ways of getting good but different ffb. Seems we are in the same boat with that elusive 1.07 lol. Ive got down to 1.08.18. Don't think ill ever get grimeys 1.06 hes flyin to do that!

Nope Not Flying you can get there too!!! Its just about Knowing and Trusting what the FFB is telling you...

The understeer became more pronounced because the wheel is Now Lighter and easyer to turn... You had Placeebo effect before... you thought the Car was Turning more than it was because the wheel FFB weight was unbalanced... Now that you lightend the Wheel you can really Notice how much the Wheel is turning compaired to how much the Car is actually really turning.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 02:01
Nope Not Flying you can get there too!!! Its just about Knowing and Trusting what the FFB is telling you...

The understeer became more pronounced because the wheel is Now Lighter and easyer to turn... You had Placeebo effect before... you thought the Car was Turning more than it was because the wheel FFB weight was unbalanced... Now that you lightend the Wheel you can really Notice how much the Wheel is turning compaired to how much the Car is actually really turning.

That's the thing I didn't lighten the wheel. I took out some gain but added ffb master to compensate for the strength loss as I didn't want to lose wheel weight. That's what I dont get why would that enhance understeer feel like when you blow a corner. Yes it was a track and car I didn't know. lol Just seems like an odd result to me if understeer is basically a no or light weight from the wheel. Just had a thought I wonder if its possible with gain set too high to basically over amplify the low forces so they aren't ever low. One of those non linear things again. I only had to turn the gain down 4 to eliminate the clipping.

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 02:05
As always great post. After reading it I had to go back and check to see if I was clipping now. Being I haven't had the ffb hud on in a few weeks and have finally been trying new tracks and cars. Sure enough it was. Not a lot but still clipping. So I figure no big deal just turn down the gain until it doesn't clip and turn the ffb master up to make up for it. Worked just like I thought. Odd part was it made understeering really obvious now. It was there before but not this clear. Which brings up the question why did turning gain down enhance the understeer feeling. That I wouldn't have expected. It almost seems to me at this point the wheel settings are more important than how you use the car ffb as long as you don't go crazy. So many ways of getting good but different ffb. Seems we are in the same boat with that elusive 1.07 lol. Ive got down to 1.08.18. Don't think ill ever get grimeys 1.06 hes flyin to do that!

you said, you turned steering gain down a bit to avoid clipping? and the feeling for understeer got better? sounds logical: while clipping happens there is actually no more FFB info, except a certain strength of counterpush, which is useless, because every change (delta) of forces at the tires is not transfered/communicated while the signal is saturated. ( the signal an/or the wheel can be saturated/numb). so the delta is masked by the clipping. you get rid of the clip, delta can be felt...

so far in theory. my problem is that i have problems in general (no matter which setting i use) to feel understeer. i'd expect tire chatter, a certain high frequeny rubbing, but that isn't provided. in reality imo the wheel doesn't really get so much lighter you rather feel a subtle rubbing. understeer in reality is much more about the abrupt decrease of the lateral G-force than what's happening at the wheel... i can't have it all...

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 02:18
Yeah... Exactly what tennenbaum said:yes:

The Clipping was Masking the finer FFB feel and you could only feel the stronger forces.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 02:26
you said, you turned steering gain down a bit to avoid clipping? and the feeling for understeer got better? sounds logical: while clipping happens there is actually no more FFB info, ecept a certain strength of counterpush, which is useless, because every change (delta) of forces at the tires is not transfered/communicated while the signal is saturated. ( the signal an/or the wheel can be saturated/numb). so the delta is masked by the clipping. you get rid of the clip, delta can be felt...

so far in theory. my problem is that i have problems in general (with all the settings) to feel understeer. i'd expect tire chatter, a certain high frequeny rubbing, but that isn't provided. in reality imo the wheel doesn't really get so much lighter you rather feel a subtle rubbing. understeer in reality is just so much more the abrupt decrease of the lateral force than what's happening at the wheel... i can't have it all...

What wheel? Actually that's what I got last night for the first time that's why I found it so odd. Blew the corner and the wheel went completely light to my surprise. Your reasoning actually makes sense just never really thought about no or low force being covered up by clipping. I'm not sure if I'm feeling what you are looking for but I can definitely feel rubbing in corners. I can actually feel it all the way through the corner at the glen after the bustop. I ran 3 races last night with cars ive never used and new tracks and found it much easier to get a feel for what I could and couldn't do with them. That's always been my biggest thing is I want the wheel to feel like I would expect a car to feel.

gotdirt410sprintcar
17-02-2016, 03:27
I think car settings are the best place to start I use SOMETIMES body longitude scale it seems to be better than it was before patch. If you use higher numbers it goes more on the lateral side. Lower more on the longitude side and I been playing with body stiffness damper settings I think its good to get the right body stiffness with each car.

And I know they say this has noo effect but I know what I felt before patch I was using body longitude a lot before patch.
it runs off of FX I think? so add 20 too what ever that setting is because we all no why then add some longitude scale that's how I have been doing it 8.0 too 10.0.

The moral of this story is are global settings are good we need to look out the box in car settings have a big part of what you feel or none of the settings would be there JUST SAYING lol Hope you can understand this I try lol.

Haiden
17-02-2016, 04:12
so far in theory. my problem is that i have problems in general (no matter which setting i use) to feel understeer. i'd expect tire chatter, a certain high frequeny rubbing, but that isn't provided. in reality imo the wheel doesn't really get so much lighter you rather feel a subtle rubbing. understeer in reality is much more about the abrupt decrease of the lateral G-force than what's happening at the wheel... i can't have it all...

I actually got that rubbing feeling for understeer once. I was SOOO happy, thought I had hit gold with the settings. Then I back out to write it down. When I started a new session, it was gone. It was one of those strange loading errors PCars does. I've never felt it like that again. It literally felt like rubber being dragged across a smooth surface.

Tiberius_85
17-02-2016, 08:37
JS classic with SoP Diff... [...] However, i have no clue how he comes to his individual in car Fxyzm mix settings...?

He measures the strength of the individual forces and scales them in a way that they are roughly the same. There's more to his settings than that, but its the basic idea how he gets to his numbers. When all forces are roughly the same strength, you can feel them all instead of one strong force dominating (which Fy does in the default FFB), thus it provides more useful information. This is his philosophy, as I understand it.

The point is, if someone doesn't like e.g. Fx, then he won't like JS's settings, but prefer to take Fx down, just like Grimey does.

Jack Spade
17-02-2016, 08:38
you said, you turned steering gain down a bit to avoid clipping? and the feeling for understeer got better? sounds logical: while clipping happens there is actually no more FFB info, except a certain strength of counterpush, which is useless, because every change (delta) of forces at the tires is not transfered/communicated while the signal is saturated. ( the signal an/or the wheel can be saturated/numb). so the delta is masked by the clipping. you get rid of the clip, delta can be felt...

so far in theory. my problem is that i have problems in general (no matter which setting i use) to feel understeer. i'd expect tire chatter, a certain high frequeny rubbing, but that isn't provided. in reality imo the wheel doesn't really get so much lighter you rather feel a subtle rubbing. understeer in reality is much more about the abrupt decrease of the lateral G-force than what's happening at the wheel... i can't have it all...

Indeed this is what I think as well, understeer you donīt really feel the wheel getting lighter as thereīs still enough friction, like pulling a heavy box on a rough surface.
The effect is extremely subtle and gets quickly covered up by other forces. The wheel really becomes light when tires lock under heavy braking, abrupt and complete
grip loss, an indication the tire model is working as grip loss is present. What could be much better though is the scrubbing effect. They are working on a more advanced
model for pCARS 2 so letīs hope for the best.

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 10:14
Pcars 9.0 FFB test... feels spot On!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU)

Of course Watkins short... 1:06.8xx ... but watch the FFB Meter when i cross the start finish line... You wll see the FFB Line blip as i cross the paint.... Yes i can clearly Feel that!!! Its all about the subtle road feel...that makes a huge difference!!! as i push through the corners i can clearly feel the tire scrubbing... the sweeping right turn after the bus stop is a great example you can Hear the car skidding at the edge of grip but i can clearly feel every line in the FFB Graph letting me know when to push and when to back off.... For me its all about the subtle forces they give sooo much information!!! The stronger forces you feel any way... but without the finer subtle forces they are just noise with little or no detail... like strong bass with no Highs... Boom every 1 feels the crash... but if you could feel the tires at the point at which you first start losing grip you could prevent the crash. #Subtle feel is the path to follow!!!

For me Watkins glen and Laguna Seca are My Test tracks... good mix of curves, fast straights, hard braking lines, smooth Braking lines and the laps are Quick so you wont get board watching the video... LOL

since 8.0 I've been adding a tad bit of "Fx" to My Tweek and with 9.0 I've settled with "Fx 10.00" Feels spot on!!! The "Fx" was the missing link to it for me... it gives just that right feel Midway into a turn... it takes away just enough wheel weight to make the wheel feel natural to me while still maintaining good Road feel.

with 9.0 FFB feels smoother and pretty much spot on!!! Watkins Glen short I've been running 1:06.xxx all day no problems , Watkins glen GP 1:43.5xx
almost ran a 1;22.xxx stock on Laguna seca, and a 1:37.xx stock on Hockenheimring Gp!!! I've just been testing random tracks/cars to see how i fair with 9.0 and i have actually gained time on alot of tracks!!!

Update 9.0 is sooo good I'm going to get a external hard drive just to save Pcars with 9.0 update on it!!! then when 10.0 comes out i will unplug the external HD and install Pcars with 10.0 o the PS4 internal HD just in case there are any negative changes to the FFB... 9.0 feels spot on its the best FFB since 6.0!!!
i would rather race with Good FFB off line than to race on line with bad FFB

I hope that the external HD plan works.... any ideas??? seems like it should work...any thoughts?

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 10:27
The point is, if someone doesn't like e.g. Fx, then he won't like JS's settings, but prefer to take Fx down, just like Grimey does.


Since 8.0 i have discovered a liking for a tad bit more Fx Feel!!! SMS must have fine tuned the Fx setting or something with 8.0 and Now with 9.0 "Fx 10" feels like its the missing Link I've been searching for!!!

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 11:31
Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need one of you to make sense of this or tell me I'm crazy...:p
There is a formula in this Matrix... I know you can dig it out!!! what is it??? the FFB feels too good to be random.


Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need you to analize this... I think i know why it works but i need your opinion

I always set TF and RAG to same
Old Vs New Global settings

Relative

Old 0.98 --------------- -New>1.00
-----0.12 --------------------->0.12
-----0.92 --------------------->0.92

Scoop

Old 68--------------------New>0.69
-----18 ------------------------>0.19

What i did was take the Global settings that + or - FFB Forces and balance them so they = RAG 98

12 RAB + 68 Scoop Knee + 18 Scoop Reduction= 98:yes:

Now i use RAG 100 Same method as prior and same result!!! Feels Great to me.

12 RAB + 69 Scoop Knee + 19 Scoop Reduction = 1.00:yes:

Some How this Seems to Line up for Me and Give Me a Really Good Feel... I Need you to Disect and analize these #'s based on how the Relative and Scoop system works and determine if there is any Rhyme or Reason to why it works so well for me.

My best Guess is that since the FFB is Divided/Multiplied by these #'s that setting them to = the Max RAG is keeping the FFB Balanced at 1.00 when The FFB is Multiplied and when FFB is Divided by the RAB or Scoops that it Divides to a # that the Remainder will be 0.
Random thought, Random Theory.... FFB feels Great Now trying to figure out the Mechanics of what is Making it work.

Hope this makes sense:confused: LOL

Edit: I have re worded and re organized the original post to better make sense...LOL... I was half sleeping and posting from my phone when OP was made. LOL:D on vacation staying up late feeling like a outlaw...LOL

PureMalt77
17-02-2016, 12:09
Pcars 9.0 FFB test... feels spot On!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU)

Of course Watkins short... 1:06.8xx ... but watch the FFB Meter when i cross the start finish line... You wll see the FFB Line blip as i cross the paint.... Yes i can clearly Feel that!!! Its all about the subtle road feel...that makes a huge difference!!! as i push through the corners i can clearly feel the tire scrubbing... the sweeping right turn after the bus stop is a great example you can Hear the car skidding at the edge of grip but i can clearly feel every line in the FFB Graph letting me know when to push and when to back off.... For me its all about the subtle forces they give sooo much information!!! The stronger forces you feel any way... but without the finer subtle forces they are just noise with little or no detail... like strong bass with no Highs... Boom every 1 feels the crash... but if you could feel the tires at the point at which you first start losing grip you could prevent the crash. #Subtle feel is the path to follow!!!

For me Watkins glen and Laguna Seca are My Test tracks... good mix of curves, fast straights, hard braking lines, smooth Braking lines and the laps are Quick so you wont get board watching the video... LOL

since 8.0 I've been adding a tad bit of "Fx" to My Tweek and with 9.0 I've settled with "Fx 10.00" Feels spot on!!! The "Fx" was the missing link to it for me... it gives just that right feel Midway into a turn... it takes away just enough wheel weight to make the wheel feel natural to me while still maintaining good Road feel.

with 9.0 FFB feels smoother and pretty much spot on!!! Watkins Glen short I've been running 1:06.xxx all day no problems , Watkins glen GP 1:43.5xx
almost ran a 1;22.xxx stock on Laguna seca, and a 1:37.xx stock on Hockenheimring Gp!!! I've just been testing random tracks/cars to see how i fair with 9.0 and i have actually gained time on alot of tracks!!!

Update 9.0 is sooo good I'm going to get a external hard drive just to save Pcars with 9.0 update on it!!! then when 10.0 comes out i will unplug the external HD and install Pcars with 10.0 o the PS4 internal HD just in case there are any negative changes to the FFB... 9.0 feels spot on its the best FFB since 6.0!!!
i would rather race with Good FFB off line than to race on line with bad FFB

I hope that the external HD plan works.... any ideas??? seems like it should work...any thoughts?

Back in 7.0, was the last time I tried your settings on my T300, but they did not work - which I can only attribute to wheel differences. For instance, feeling the paint in the start/cross line was not there, wheel was generally too light to the point I was loosing almost all feel. But now is patch 9.0, and I will give another shot to adapt your latest setup for the T300 to get the same "feel" and a similar telemetry graph. Wish me luck!

Edit: BTW, you can stick to 9.0 forever, but forget about online play or TT!

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 12:21
Back in 7.0, was the last time I tried your settings on my T300, but they did not work - which I can only attribute to wheel differences. For instance, feeling the paint in the start/cross line was not there, wheel was generally too light to the point I was loosing almost all feel. But now is patch 9.0, and I will give another shot to adapt your latest setup for the T300 to get the same "feel" and a similar telemetry graph. Wish me luck!

Edit: BTW, you can stick to 9.0 forever, but forget about online play or TT!

Remember you have to set the GM FFB to set your at the wheel FFB strength.... I think Standard for T300 and PS4 is 75 GM FFB... Start there and work your way down until you have the at the wheel FFB strength that is right for you....Thats probably why the FFB was Light the First time also... every wheel Needs its own GM FFB power level.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 12:49
Remember you have to set the GM FFB to set your at the wheel FFB strength.... I think Standard for T300 and PS4 is 75 GM FFB... Start there and work your way down until you have the at the wheel FFB strength that is right for you....Thats probably why the FFB was Light the First time also... every wheel Needs its own GM FFB power level.

I don't see any reason why yours wouldn't work on the t300 and yes 75 is default. The only thing I would change would be the sk to .77. It might be a little weird at .69

PureMalt77
17-02-2016, 13:20
Remember you have to set the GM FFB to set your at the wheel FFB strength.... I think Standard for T300 and PS4 is 75 GM FFB... Start there and work your way down until you have the at the wheel FFB strength that is right for you....Thats probably why the FFB was Light the First time also... every wheel Needs its own GM FFB power level.

At the time I tried with GM FFB but was not really enough. But again was another patch, so it deserves a review anyway.


I don't see any reason why yours wouldn't work on the t300 and yes 75 is default. The only thing I would change would be the sk to .77. It might be a little weird at .69

How did you get to .77? Trial and error / feel, or did you use that fancy calculator?
Default scoop is (Knee, Reduction) 0.70 and 0.15. The calculator gave me 0.72 - 0.35 (100% FFB) and 0.69 - 0.25 (75% FFB).
And the DRR is even fancier, way too high what it calculates: 0.1 with 100% FFB, 0.14 with 75% FFB. I currently have 0.05 otherwise the wheel is way too sharp in the center.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 13:25
Indeed this is what I think as well, understeer you donīt really feel the wheel getting lighter as thereīs still enough friction, like pulling a heavy box on a rough surface.
The effect is extremely subtle and gets quickly covered up by other forces. The wheel really becomes light when tires lock under heavy braking, abrupt and complete
grip loss, an indication the tire model is working as grip loss is present. What could be much better though is the scrubbing effect. They are working on a more advanced
model for pCARS 2 so letīs hope for the best.

Jack,
I agree with what both of you said about understeer. Problem is I wonder how many are using the term understeer loosely like I did for lack of a better term. Not realizing they are clipping even if its only very minor. As I just found out even a little clipping can have a big impact on what you feel at the wheel.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 14:08
At the time I tried with GM FFB but was not really enough. But again was another patch, so it deserves a review anyway.



How did you get to .77? Trial and error / feel, or did you use that fancy calculator?
Default scoop is (Knee, Reduction) 0.70 and 0.15. The calculator gave me 0.72 - 0.35 (100% FFB) and 0.69 - 0.25 (75% FFB).
And the DRR is even fancier, way too high what it calculates: 0.1 with 100% FFB, 0.14 with 75% FFB. I currently have 0.05 otherwise the wheel is way too sharp in the center.

Sort of both. You may actually need to go a little higher with it because of the lower gain than I use. Same here with the drr it was too high from the calculator. Remember nobody is really sure it works exactly right with consoles but should give you a good starting point.

Jack Spade
17-02-2016, 14:17
Jack,
I agree with what both of you said about understeer. Problem is I wonder how many are using the term understeer loosely like I did for lack of a better term. Not realizing they are clipping even if its only very minor. As I just found out even a little clipping can have a big impact on what you feel at the wheel.

I know, one of the reasons going down to TF 75

morpwr
17-02-2016, 14:30
I know, one of the reasons going down to TF 75

Yes I tried it both ways tf 75 and tf 100 you can see the difference in the ffb hud. Less little haircut things like you call them with tf 75.

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 16:14
I actually got that rubbing feeling for understeer once. I was SOOO happy, thought I had hit gold with the settings. Then I back out to write it down. When I started a new session, it was gone. It was one of those strange loading errors PCars does. I've never felt it like that again. It literally felt like rubber being dragged across a smooth surface.

...too bad!

Jack Spade
17-02-2016, 16:19
:D

miraculix99

just can't get into the 1.07.xxx zone on Watkins Glen Short with the Ruf 8 GT3 stock. :orange: Did a 1.08.22x in free practice, and a 1.08.8xx TT, but consistently only between 1.09.xxx and 1.09.5xx
The moment i crack it i give you all a heads up, and we do a pCars1 memorial race, when pCars2 comes out :D

BTW: last sunday i tested Grimeys, bmanics, JS and the SMS default settings against each other. ...and, surprise to me, was fastest with Grimey's. (No placebo).

Even while i find his setting "extravagant". He choose a setting that i wouldn't necessarily choose... So, admittedly, it's funny i like his setting and i'm a little faster (about ø 0.3") than with the others. The ones who followed my posts know, that i kind of find it strange how Fz (inverse for most cars) comes into effect in the mix. In so far it's even more surprising to me that Grimey's mix works this well. I can't explain it! :D So practical experience beats theory! Grimey's FFB setting is the one that challenges me the most "to push" when i want to achieve fast lap times. With his setting racing is work...

I also like bmanics setting. He also has an exotic approach. With exotic i mean a much different fundamental approach by setting the tirforces really low, and giving the wheel weight and definition with a smart combination of RAG/RAB/RAC and SC. I found it immersive, but somehow it isn't ideal for me for fast laps.

While Grimey and bmanic settings stand for two extremes (Grimey with his approach of high tireforces, using the "invisible headroom" intensively (up to 5.0), and a lot of RAC soft-limiting, and practically no Fx and little Fy, and bmanic with his tiny tire forces lots of compression with SC and a relatively high steering gain), JS and SMS' default both have in common to keep the tire forces in a range not higher than approx. 1.8 - 1.9 before hitting RAG/RAB/RAC.

JS classic with SoP Diff... I was surprised... it feels good and i understand why a lot of people like it. It's "rich" and lively. But i was a bit confused how to "read" it. I guess i need much more time to learn what his setting tells me. Interestingly i find his setting technically the most logic in terms how to keep the signals in the "clean" corridor of the signal chain. The fact that he offers an alternative setting for lower end wheels with the use of Softclipper that feels basically similair shows that he knows the FFB very well. (Yet, he never really confirmed on the "invisible headroom" ;-) However, i have no clue how he comes to his individual in car Fxyzm mix settings...?

I'd love to believe that SMS knows best, thus setting the matrix to 100/100/100/100 and that would be pure, therefore un-altered and max driving experience and immersion. But it isn't, ...to me. I can be fast with that setting, but instead of "pure" it feels "unspecific" to me. Which puzzles me, because how is it possible that all the other settings feel better even that they all have fundamentally different Fxyzm settings...?? So the mystery about SMS' FFB goes on. And i find it remarkable that such different settings can all lead to very good FFB.

Still, i'm looking for an easygoing lighter "cruise control" setting that allows me to be fast and immersive with a better feel for weight changes and braking, without being too sloppy on straights.

tennenbaum, interesting report. Concerning lap times, very fast people are on a gamepad and AFAIK the fastest aliens donīt use FFB. As we all know, a minor mistake could have
a great impact on lap time and there are many variables on each and every lap. IMO you would need to drive a lot of laps with different cars on different tracks to make a
statistical relevant assessment which FFB setting finally makes you faster. Also, your status of learning track, car and FFB setting is an additional aspect you have to consider.

How do I come to the individual car Fxyzm mix settings? I have mentioned many times FFB is derived from car/tire physics, each and every car is different and so are the
values physics spits out, even among the same type or group of cars these differences could be significant. In order to work out a proper balance or ratio of forces itīs
essential to know how they work and how strong each of those forces really is. I developed a method to assess all forces on all cars. If you want to have all cars in the
same ballpark each car requires an individual setting, you simply can not use the same setting for the FA and the Clio for instance.

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 17:01
Tenenbaum i need you to analize this... I think i know why it works but i need your opinion

I always set TF and RAG to same #
My Last Tweek Global was
Relative
Old 0.98 --------------- -New>1.00
0.12 ------------------------> 0.12
0.92 ------------------------->0.92

Scoop
old 68-----------------------New> 0.69
18 ------------------------------>0.19

What i did was take the Global settings that + or - FFB Forces and balance them so they = RAG 98

68 Scoop Knee + 12 RAB +18= 98

Now i useTF 1.00, RAG 100 Same methode as prior and same result!!! Feels Great to me.
69 Scoop Knee + 12 RAB +19 = 1.00

Some How this Seems to Line up for Me and Give Me a Really Good Feel... I Need you to Disect and analize these #'s based on how the Relative and Scoop system works and determin if there is any Rhyme or Reason to why it works so well for me.

My best Guess is that since the FFB is Divided/Multiplied by these #'s that setting them to = the Max RAG is keeping the FFB Balanced at 1.00 when The FFB is Multipied and when FFB is Divided by the RAB or Scoops that it Divides to a # that the Remainder will be 0.
Random thought, Random Theory.... FFB feels Great Now trying to figure out the Mechanics of what is Making it work.

Hope this makes sense:confused: LOL

227722

that's a toughie... 69 Scoop Knee + 12 RAB +19 = 1.00 ... too good to be true. but you never know... i once set Fx to 80 and Mz to 120 and got an ugly digital interference...., since then i don't choose numbers anymore that can be devided by even numbers. ....me getting a bit cuckoo. and with my sloppy t300 i ain't feel any difference anyway with such little changes...:D Though (@ morpwr) I do feel the finishing line paint on Watkins Glen!:p

and my favorite for today:

...Watkins Glen short I've been running 1:06.xxx all day no problems , Watkins glen GP 1:43.5xx, almost ran a 1;22.xxx stock on Laguna seca, and a 1:37.xx stock on Hockenheimring Gp!!! ...FFB feels great!!! and I'm on Vacation all week to Enjoy it.

morpwr: "That just wrong grimey. You need to take the week off so we can catch up! lol



Quote Originally Posted by morpwr View Post
What wheel? Actually that's what I got last night for the first time that's why I found it so odd. Blew the corner and the wheel went completely light to my surprise. Your reasoning actually makes sense just never really thought about no or low force being covered up by clipping. I'm not sure if I'm feeling what you are looking for but I can definitely feel rubbing in corners. I can actually feel it all the way through the corner at the glen after the bustop. I ran 3 races last night with cars ive never used and new tracks and found it much easier to get a feel for what I could and couldn't do with them. That's always been my biggest thing is I want the wheel to feel like I would expect a car to feel.

what are your current settings?

Haiden
17-02-2016, 18:58
How do I come to the individual car Fxyzm mix settings? I have mentioned many times FFB is derived from car/tire physics, each and every car is different and so are the
values physics spits out, even among the same type or group of cars these differences could be significant. In order to work out a proper balance or ratio of forces itīs
essential to know how they work and how strong each of those forces really is. I developed a method to assess all forces on all cars. If you want to have all cars in the
same ballpark each car requires an individual setting, you simply can not use the same setting for the FA and the Clio for instance.

Jack, do you mean the cars are different in terms of mechanical configuration, which makes them respond and feel differently to the forces passing through the tire model, resulting in each having a different feeling in the wheel? Isn't that what we want--for the individual characteristics to come through?

I'm trying to understand what you mean by "If you want to have all cars in the same ballpark..." By same ballpark, do you mean having them all feel the same at the wheel? That's not desirable is it? Or do you mean the in-car FFB needs to be adjust per car, to simulate a single/fixed real world physics model that maintains each car's individual characteristics and wheel feel, just doing so in a more standardized way? <--- If it's this, the latter, then that would explain why a one-sized fits all in-car setting isn't really possible.

morpwr
17-02-2016, 20:30
227722

that's a toughie... 69 Scoop Knee + 12 RAB +19 = 1.00 ... too good to be true. but you never know... i once set Fx to 80 and Mz to 120 and got an ugly digital interference...., since then i don't choose numbers anymore that can be devided by even numbers. ....me getting a bit cuckoo. and with my sloppy t300 i ain't feel any difference anyway with such little changes...:D Though (@ morpwr) I do feel the finishing line paint on Watkins Glen!:p

and my favorite for today:

...Watkins Glen short I've been running 1:06.xxx all day no problems , Watkins glen GP 1:43.5xx, almost ran a 1;22.xxx stock on Laguna seca, and a 1:37.xx stock on Hockenheimring Gp!!! ...FFB feels great!!! and I'm on Vacation all week to Enjoy it.

morpwr: "That just wrong grimey. You need to take the week off so we can catch up! lol




what are your current settings?

Me too with the starting line.
ffb master 45-65 or whatever you like
tf 75
drr .07
drf .019
rag 1.50
rab .02
rac .85
sk .77
sr .22
str gain 1.16
anything not here is default. Let me know what you think your opinions always welcome.

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 20:53
Jack, do you mean the cars are different in terms of mechanical configuration, which makes them respond and feel differently to the forces passing through the tire model, resulting in each having a different feeling in the wheel? Isn't that what we want--for the individual characteristics to come through?

I'm trying to understand what you mean by "If you want to have all cars in the same ballpark..." By same ballpark, do you mean having them all feel the same at the wheel? That's not desirable is it? Or do you mean the in-car FFB needs to be adjust per car, to simulate a single/fixed real world physics model that maintains each car's individual characteristics and wheel feel, just doing so in a more standardized way? <--- If it's this, the latter, then that would explain why a one-sized fits all in-car setting isn't really possible.

I dunno if this kind of individual force calculation can be accurately done... Not saying it can't be done but there are sooo many factors that we don't Know...in order to perform such calculation we would need the Exact # that SMS calculated the spindle forces Ũ Gravity (Ex:How much force is required to lift 1 wheel off the Ground Ũ4 in random combinations) Ũ Tire Grip Friction/Resistance (Because tires make/lose Heat and Grip so this affects all Calculations and is extremely Variable) Ũ weight of the car to even come close to being able to mathematically balance i car FFB equation.... IMO if it were just a #'s game then the FFB would not be truly Dynamic... every 1 would go for the Mathematical perfectly balanced set up... I would!!! It would be like riding on Rails....All Grip No Slip.... IMO the global settings Can or Might be able to be Mathematically Balanced... Because they have to Multiply and divide by 1 another to create FFB so i try to balance them that when they Multiply the end result is 1.00 and when they divide the remainder is 0... that's My theory but I'm Not even sure how much merit or validity that holds.... Even with the best Math formula the end result is you have to fine tune by Feel and there is No Escaping that. JMT.

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 21:18
Me too with the starting line.
ffb master 45-65 or whatever you like
tf 75
drr .07
drf .019
rag 1.50
rab .02
rac .85
sk .77
sr .22
str gain 1.16
anything not here is default. Let me know what you think your opinions always welcome.

uuoowoouh. 100/100/100/100, spindle master scale around 26.... ? and RAB 0.02 ?!! that is interesting!! i have to try it before giving feedback. ...i'm just a bit absorbed by my daily business ;-) but your approach makes me very curious...

morpwr
17-02-2016, 21:29
uuoowoouh. 100/100/100/100, spindle master scale around 26.... ? and RAB 0.02 ?!! that is interesting!! i have to try it before giving feedback. ...i'm just a bit absorbed by my daily business ;-) but your approach makes me very curious...

Sorry using jacks classic. I meant default for the wheel.

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 21:39
[QUOTE=morpwr;1236242]Sorry using jacks classic. I meant default for the wheel.[/QUOTE

but did you really set RAB to 0.02?

tennenbaum
17-02-2016, 21:54
I dunno if this kind of individual force calcultion can be accurately done... Not saying it cannbe done but yhere are sooo many factors that we dont Know...in order to perform such calculation we would need the Exact # that SMS calculated the spindle forces Ũ Gravity (Ex:How much force is required to lift 1 wheel off the Ground Ũ4 in random combinations) Ũ Tire Grip Friction/Resistance (Because tires make/lose Heat and Grip so this affects all Calculations and is extreemly Variable) Ũ weight of the car to even come close to being able to mathematically balance i car FFB equation.... IMO if it were just a #'s game then the FFB would not be truely Dynamic... every 1 would go for the Mathematical perfectly balanced set up... I would!!! It would be lime riing on Rails....All Grip No Slip.... iMO the global setteings Can or Might be able to be Mathematically Balanced... Because they have to Multiply and divide by 1 another to create FFB so i try to balance them that when they Multiply the end result is 1.00 and when they divide the remainder is 0... thats My theory but im Not even sure how much merrit or validity that holds.... Even with the best Math formula the end result is you have to fine tune by Feel and there is No Escaping that. JMT.

you're fast, with stocks, no alien, immersive FFF (already in May 15!), started one of the most lively threads with a substantial "extravagant" bold FFB approach and gave a great personal entertaining caring note to it. if you say it's all math and all feeling at the same time i take a deep breath, relax, lay back, enjoy and may sign in... :)

morpwr
17-02-2016, 22:05
don't mind. ... geeting down to the core is fun! but did you really set RAB to 0.02?

Yes I did. It feels more natural to me. To me set at default it feels like the wheel grabs and hangs. Its subtle but I feel it. But that's just me.

GrimeyDog
17-02-2016, 22:10
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227722&d=1455731444

Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need one of you to make sense of this or tell me I'm crazy...:p
There is a formula in this Matrix... I know you can dig it out!!! what is it??? the FFB feels too good to be random.


Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need you to analize this... I think i know why it works but i need your opinion

I always set TF and RAG to same #
Old Vs New Global settings

Relative

Old 0.98--------------- -New>1.00
-----0.12 --------------------->0.12
-----0.92 --------------------->0.92

Scoop

Old 68--------------------New>0.69
---- 18------------------------->0.19

What i did was take the Global settings that + or - FFB Forces and balance them so they = RAG 98

Old ----> 12 RAB + 68 Scoop Knee + 18 Scoop Reduction= 98:yes: (all the forces that + or - FFB = RAG 98:yes:)Feels tooo good to be random...I came up with these #'s by pure feel and they seemed to go together sooo right i had to take a closer look to see what the mathematical connection was...and i found it!!!

Now i use RAG 1.00 Same method as prior and same result!!! Feels Great to me.

12 RAB + 69 Scoop Knee + 19 Scoop Reduction = 1.00:yes:

Some How this Seems to Line up for Me and Give Me a Really Good Feel... I Need you to Disect and analize these #'s based on how the Relative and Scoop system works and determine if there is any Rhyme or Reason to why it works so well for me.

My best Guess is that since the FFB is Divided/Multiplied by these #'s that setting them to = the Max RAG is keeping the FFB Balanced at 1.00 when The FFB is Multiplied and when FFB is Divided by the RAB or Scoops that it Divides to a # that the Remainder will be 0.
Random thought, Random Theory.... FFB feels Great Now trying to figure out the Mechanics of what is Making it work.

Hope this makes sense:confused: LOL

Edit: I have re worded and re organized the original post to better make sense...LOL... I was half sleeping and posting from my phone when OP was made. LOL:D on vacation staying up late feeling like a outlaw...LOL

poirqc
17-02-2016, 23:31
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227722&d=1455731444

Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need one of you to make sense of this or tell me I'm crazy...:p
There is a formula in this Matrix... I know you can dig it out!!! what is it??? the FFB feels too good to be random.


Tenenbaum/ Poirqc i need you to analize this... I think i know why it works but i need your opinion

I always set TF and RAG to same #
Old Vs New Global settings

Relative

Old 0.98--------------- -New>1.00
-----0.12 --------------------->0.12
-----0.92 --------------------->0.92

Scoop

Old 68--------------------New>0.69
---- 18------------------------->0.19

What i did was take the Global settings that + or - FFB Forces and balance them so they = RAG 98

12 RAB + 68 Scoop Knee + 18 Scoop Reduction= 98:yes:

Now i use RAG 100 Same method as prior and same result!!! Feels Great to me.

12 RAB + 69 Scoop Knee + 19 Scoop Reduction = 1.00:yes:

Some How this Seems to Line up for Me and Give Me a Really Good Feel... I Need you to Disect and analize these #'s based on how the Relative and Scoop system works and determine if there is any Rhyme or Reason to why it works so well for me.

My best Guess is that since the FFB is Divided/Multiplied by these #'s that setting them to = the Max RAG is keeping the FFB Balanced at 1.00 when The FFB is Multiplied and when FFB is Divided by the RAB or Scoops that it Divides to a # that the Remainder will be 0.
Random thought, Random Theory.... FFB feels Great Now trying to figure out the Mechanics of what is Making it work.

Hope this makes sense:confused: LOL

Edit: I have re worded and re organized the original post to better make sense...LOL... I was half sleeping and posting from my phone when OP was made. LOL:D on vacation staying up late feeling like a outlaw...LOL

I think the globals are just there to help a wheels to render the Car FFB the best it can.

The first thing i can say is about Scoop Reduction. This setting must be used carefully. You can't really push too hard(moving value up) because it'll wash away details too "widely". It could be pushed a bit more on low deadzone wheels. Staying around 15(- or +) is a good start. This leads to Scoop Knee(we should really have a builtin drawing board on this forum:) ). The last time i messed with it, i only moved it just a bit. It seem to me that there's a "magical value" where as you get closer to it, the behaviors tend to come out. The farther away(up or down) you move from it, the less the FFB feels good. When i was at 0.66-67 it was great. SK 0,64 or 0,68 and it was more bland.

The same thing can be said about RAB. Depending on how you balanced RAG against RAC, you may not need to move RAB much.

It's been a while since i ran with low RAB(always use at least 0.01, else, the wheel with de-center itself) but i think i observed the following:

The lower RAB is, the better fast acting torque change will happend.
The higher RAB is, the better slow acting torque change will happend.(If you go too far, the torque of the wheel will invert itself. If you want to try wierd, crank it up to 1.5, you'll see. Usable range may be around 0.01 to 0.30)

I think the thing that made me stop fine tuning the FFB was that, to me, it seems like the FFB of pCars is like a magnifying glass. The closer you watch something, the better the details will get. However, you'll progressively lose sight of the surrroundings. If you go to far, you'll see everything, without any details. It's about striking a balance. The better the wheel, the bigger the glass is. You can see more there.

This means you need to know what you want to "see" before going there. This is where the official guide shine. There's steps that actually talks about the driving itself, and how pCars tool translate to driving. I just wish there was more examples about tool usages.

Personnal story, doesn't mean anything can't be acheived
For me, all the first FFB tune i did where mostly good, but friends that tried my rig always said that the understeering feeling was too subtle/abscent. From there, i started to focus more on that. I got it to a point where i liked it pretty much. But i got focused on that too much and i lost the other details while going for that.

Since i lost my references, i can't decide for myself what i want to "see" now. I'm just taking a break. I'll probably get a it again when spring comes around.

I remember when i was karting more often, at the local track, that tarmac surface could get real hard on the body. I understand that Kart(those models) don't have a suspension. Near the end(that track is closed now), there was some wave that build up on fast curves. At a point, if you didn't precisely took a line, you could get airborne and have your ribs smashed in the seat. The steering would shake alot there. I remember what happened, i just don't remember how it feels!

I understand that it would be less present on a real car, with power steering. But from my PoV, it make sense to feel those tarmac wave when taking a high speed curve. It adds to the immersion. It's always hard to strike the balance between fast times and immersion.

gotdirt410sprintcar
18-02-2016, 02:36
When I got my T500 I used the settings in this thread its knee 94 , reduction14 but it felt good then they made a change to thrustmaster's and NEW TIRE MODEL. I think its better lower now seem to lose the lower forces when knee is that high. But then again the reduction was at 14. Road feel was good special in a straight line I could try it again with more reduction..

i thought i was in poirqc thread lol thats where i got my scoop settings at

GrimeyDog
18-02-2016, 03:05
you're fast, with stocks, no alien, immersive FFF (already in May 15!), started one of the most lively threads with a substantial "extravagant" bold FFB approach and gave a great personal entertaining caring note to it. if you say it's all math and all feeling at the same time i take a deep breath, relax, lay back, enjoy and may sign in... :)


Thanx... This thread is the collective effort of all who post and contribute diligently to the pursuit of the final FFB solution:applause: Each and every 1 that post brings their own unique perspective to shed light on what i will Dub the Pcars FFB Paradox:confused: we have a great collection of posters tennenbaum, Poirqc, morpwr, Haiden, Skoader and even Jack spade each with special talents and insight...Even though we may use different methods we all still strand united for the common cause of finding the final FFB solution... Kudos and cheers to All... it is you!!! that has made this a great thread. thanx... (sorry if i missed any 1 i will edit and add names accordingly.)


Grimey_Dog

Its all Math its all feeling at the same time... There is No Right there is No Wrong... There is only the Quest for the Final FFB solution that is Unique to every one according to taste.

GrimeyDog
18-02-2016, 06:50
Hmmmm.... I spent the day on the PC playing Assetto corsa... Vey interesting Comparison:confused: finally got around to tweeking the PC settings and out dated my PC it is not:D

one of the big differences that i noticed is that.../

Assetto Corsa while the center of the wheel can feel a bit lose the steering gets progressively harder the more you turn the wheel....this maybe the linear feel people were looking for:confused:

Project cars steering seems to be even from start to Finish... sort of like its power assisted steering the wheel weight stays the same though out the entire turning range....not including the FFB spikes that may be caused by bumps,curbs etc... This maybe why i prefer stronger FFB and wheel weight because when i lower the Overall FFB and wheel weight i constantly over steer.


The track tested on was spa with the Gt3 BMW z4

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 08:56
Yes I did. It feels more natural to me. To me set at default it feels like the wheel grabs and hangs. Its subtle but I feel it. But that's just me.

i have to run your settings asap. very curious to see how it feels...

Jack Spade
18-02-2016, 08:58
Jack, do you mean the cars are different in terms of mechanical configuration, which makes them respond and feel differently to the forces passing through the tire model, resulting in each having a different feeling in the wheel? Isn't that what we want--for the individual characteristics to come through?

I'm trying to understand what you mean by "If you want to have all cars in the same ballpark..." By same ballpark, do you mean having them all feel the same at the wheel? That's not desirable is it? Or do you mean the in-car FFB needs to be adjust per car, to simulate a single/fixed real world physics model that maintains each car's individual characteristics and wheel feel, just doing so in a more standardized way? <--- If it's this, the latter, then that would explain why a one-sized fits all in-car setting isn't really possible.

Same ballpark first of all means the BMW Z4 should not feel twice as strong like the BAC or the Lotus 49 for instance. Like I said before, the levels of forces physics
spits out are very different, so a force could be on car A Mz =1, on car B=1.7 on the other side Fy=2 and maybe 4.0 on car C etc, etc. On the setup menu all at 100
on every car, like the default FFB, you get messed up ratios. In general the force of Fy at least is twice as strong as Mz, often even much, much more on certain cars,
the result is always overwhelming side load forces whatever you do on the track. IMO first requirement to be able to feel the individual character of a car is to have
the ratio of forces organized.... in context with FFB I would not use the high lighted wording.

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 09:11
I think the globals are just there to help a wheels to render the Car FFB the best it can.

The first thing i can say is about Scoop Reduction. This setting must be used carefully. You can't really push too hard(moving value up) because it'll wash away details too "widely". It could be pushed a bit more on low deadzone wheels. Staying around 15(- or +) is a good start. This leads to Scoop Knee(we should really have a builtin drawing board on this forum:) ). The last time i messed with it, i only moved it just a bit. It seem to me that there's a "magical value" where as you get closer to it, the behaviors tend to come out. The farther away(up or down) you move from it, the less the FFB feels good. When i was at 0.66-67 it was great. SK 0,64 or 0,68 and it was more bland.

The same thing can be said about RAB. Depending on how you balanced RAG against RAC, you may not need to move RAB much.

It's been a while since i ran with low RAB(always use at least 0.01, else, the wheel with de-center itself) but i think i observed the following:

The lower RAB is, the better fast acting torque change will happend.
The higher RAB is, the better slow acting torque change will happend.(If you go too far, the torque of the wheel will invert itself. If you want to try wierd, crank it up to 1.5, you'll see. Usable range may be around 0.01 to 0.30)

I think the thing that made me stop fine tuning the FFB was that, to me, it seems like the FFB of pCars is like a magnifying glass. The closer you watch something, the better the details will get. However, you'll progressively lose sight of the surrroundings. If you go to far, you'll see everything, without any details. It's about striking a balance. The better the wheel, the bigger the glass is. You can see more there.

This means you need to know what you want to "see" before going there. This is where the official guide shine. There's steps that actually talks about the driving itself, and how pCars tool translate to driving. I just wish there was more examples about tool usages.

Personnal story, doesn't mean anything can't be acheived
For me, all the first FFB tune i did where mostly good, but friends that tried my rig always said that the understeering feeling was too subtle/abscent. From there, i started to focus more on that. I got it to a point where i liked it pretty much. But i got focused on that too much and i lost the other details while going for that.

Since i lost my references, i can't decide for myself what i want to "see" now. I'm just taking a break. I'll probably get a it again when spring comes around.

I remember when i was karting more often, at the local track, that tarmac surface could get real hard on the body. I understand that Kart(those models) don't have a suspension. Near the end(that track is closed now), there was some wave that build up on fast curves. At a point, if you didn't precisely took a line, you could get airborne and have your ribs smashed in the seat. The steering would shake alot there. I remember what happened, i just don't remember how it feels!

I understand that it would be less present on a real car, with power steering. But from my PoV, it make sense to feel those tarmac wave when taking a high speed curve. It adds to the immersion. It's always hard to strike the balance between fast times and immersion.

nice reflection about the process - and its diffuculties - to optimize while compromizing the balance...

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 09:30
Same ballpark first of all means the BMW Z4 should not feel twice as strong like the BAC or the Lotus 49 for instance. Like I said before, the levels of forces physics
spits out are very different, so a force could be on car A Mz =1, on car B=1.7 on the other side Fy=2 and maybe 4.0 on car C etc, etc. On the setup menu all at 100
on every car, like the default FFB, you get messed up ratios. In general the force of Fy at least is twice as strong as Mz, often even much, much more on certain cars,
the result is always overwhelming side load forces whatever you do on the track. IMO first requirement to be able to feel the individual character of a car is to have
the ratio of forces organized.... in context with FFB I would not use the high lighted wording.

yes. that's why i don't think the devs "fixed" the defaults in terms of a better FFB now since patch 8.0. the 100/100/100/100 is still nothing than a white canvas. they also didn't adjust "new" internal "scalers" behind the 100 values. personally my feeling with patch 8.0 was that they didnt change the FFB at all, instead it's the subtle changes of tire model that made us think it could be the FFB system as well that got changed.

konnos
18-02-2016, 10:31
I, too, think that they only changed the tire model. But why wouldn't they say that they changed the FFB? It is a little suspicious, because the changes in FFB were quite obvious, the tire changes were not some little tweak here and there.

Or maybe they didn't want to reveal that they changed FFB settings, cause you can imagine the river of questions and clarifications this fora would demand. If you have noticed, not even one explanation has been given of real use about how the system works. So i don't expect that they will reveal any more info than the assumptions you guys are making about the works behind it.

morpwr
18-02-2016, 11:10
i have to run your settings asap. very curious to see how it feels...
Let me know what you think. I probably need to adjust the scoops a little since dropping the gain but haven't had time and just enjoyed getting some racing in the other night. That's part of the problem and what makes it so good. Every adjustment causes another little one.

morpwr
18-02-2016, 11:15
Hmmmm.... I spent the day on the PC playing Assetto corsa... Vey interesting Comparison:confused: finally got around to tweeking the PC settings and out dated my PC it is not:D

one of the big differences that i noticed is that.../

Assetto Corsa while the center of the wheel can feel a bit lose the steering gets progressively harder the more you turn the wheel....this maybe the linear feel people were looking for:confused:

Project cars steering seems to be even from start to Finish... sort of like its power assisted steering the wheel weight stays the same though out the entire turning range....not including the FFB spikes that may be caused by bumps,curbs etc... This maybe why i prefer stronger FFB and wheel weight because when i lower the Overall FFB and wheel weight i constantly over steer. The answer I got was that arm angle is virtual Ackermann. It doesn't actually effect toe but does change how the rack send information to us. If I'm wrong on that I'm sure tennenbaum can clear that up as he was in on that conversation with jussi.


The track tested on was spa with the Gt3 BMW z4

Arm angle will change what youre talking about with the center but its kind of a weird adjustment. There isn't necessarily only one right spot. You might find a couple places it feels good but a little different. Just as a note you cant just go from one end of the adjustment to the other with that. Like we usually do to see what effect something has. Arm angle doesn't work like that. Ask me how I know.lol

Haiden
18-02-2016, 12:00
Same ballpark first of all means the BMW Z4 should not feel twice as strong like the BAC or the Lotus 49 for instance. Like I said before, the levels of forces physics
spits out are very different, so a force could be on car A Mz =1, on car B=1.7 on the other side Fy=2 and maybe 4.0 on car C etc, etc. On the setup menu all at 100
on every car, like the default FFB, you get messed up ratios. In general the force of Fy at least is twice as strong as Mz, often even much, much more on certain cars,
the result is always overwhelming side load forces whatever you do on the track. IMO first requirement to be able to feel the individual character of a car is to have
the ratio of forces organized.... in context with FFB I would not use the high lighted wording.

Okay. Thanks! Now I understand you, and it makes total sense. I had found pretty good in-car settings, that well across the board, but there was no denying that some cars weren't providing the same range or fidelity. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of individual tunes, though. I'll deal with it, but it's just not ideal. Do you know if this will be any different in PCars2?


yes. that's why i don't think the devs "fixed" the defaults in terms of a better FFB now since patch 8.0. the 100/100/100/100 is still nothing than a white canvas. they also didn't adjust "new" internal "scalers" behind the 100 values. personally my feeling with patch 8.0 was that they didnt change the FFB at all, instead it's the subtle changes of tire model that made us think it could be the FFB system as well that got changed.

I don't think they changed the FFB. The FFB is derived mostly from spindle forces, which are dependent on the tire model. A major change in the tire model would make the FFB feel completely different. They've probably made other changes to the tire model along the way, that have been mistaken for FFB changes.


nice reflection about the process - and its diffuculties - to optimize while compromizing the balance...

Agreed! I've started feeling the same way over the past few weeks. I did some testing last night based on Jack's comments about the individual in-car settings. As much as I would like to have one tune for all, I do believe he's right. I used his in-car settings before, but, at the time, I didn't have a CSW-v2, so I didn't use the globals. I tried them last night, and they're...different, but not bad. The linear FFB feels a little sluggish to me, but I was able to match my best times. I tried cherry-picking the globals, and am now focused on his Relative Adjust and Scoop settings, trying different TF/FF balances.

I will say this, though. The comments about FF=100 being bad for wheels is somewhat misleading (not that I'm going that route). When I used Jack's setting as he laid them out (FF/TF=100/75), in conjunction with his other global settings. My wheel wasn't working any harder than it normally does. In fact, it didn't even feel heavier. With my @wheel force set to 75, it was actually pretty light. I raised the @wheel to 100, and it felt firmer, but not overly strong. The wheel temp remained well within the normal range--on the lower end, if anything. Again, this was just my experience. I'm not promoting it, just sharing the results. :)


Arm angle will change what youre talking about with the center but its kind of a weird adjustment. There isn't necessarily only one right spot. You might find a couple places it feels good but a little different. Just as a note you cant just go from one end of the adjustment to the other with that. Like we usually do to see what effect something has. Arm angle doesn't work like that. Ask me how I know.lol

The increasing force, is how most of the other games I play work, especially F1 2015. It makes sense. The higher your cornering speed, the more force you feel as you climb toward the tires' grip threshold. I've been trying to get this in PCars, but it's been elusive. Last night, however, when I tried Jack's settings, I did get a little of that, and I'm sure it has something to do with the linearity of his settings. In fact, I don't see how you can achieve that feel without some degree of linearity. This is pretty much the main reason I want to do some testing this weekend with those settings. And by testing, I mean, seeing if they're right for me, not whether or not they're good. Like I said, it felt a little sluggish, but after about 10-15 laps, I was matching my old times, and I could see that I was getting used to it. One thing's for sure. The settings are smoother than a lot of the others I've tried, including my own. At first, it seemed like the wheel isn't as lively as other tunes, but then I realized that it had the same dynamic range, just better fidelity and less noise. An analogy would be listen to the car stereo with the windows down or up. Down, you still hear and enjoy the music, despite the wind coming through the window. But close the windows, and you experience that same song in a different way. I think we sometimes mistake noise for increased dynamic range. It feels like we're getting more from the wheel and telemetry looks more alive, but it's basically just chatter, useless information that's not really helping you driving any better. The problem is, that chatter often provides a degree of texture that can sometimes enhance the experience. So, once again, it boils down to preference. :)

Jack Spade
18-02-2016, 14:30
yes. that's why i don't think the devs "fixed" the defaults in terms of a better FFB now since patch 8.0. the 100/100/100/100 is still nothing than a white canvas. they also didn't adjust "new" internal "scalers" behind the 100 values. personally my feeling with patch 8.0 was that they didnt change the FFB at all, instead it's the subtle changes of tire model that made us think it could be the FFB system as well that got changed.

I agree, I was always wondering why some people seem to think with patch 8 FFB has changed. FFB only would change if the car/tire physics changes or an ugly bug
creeps in, an ongoing tire heating issue was fixed, though Iīm not sure if all sorts of tires were ever affected.

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 15:02
Okay. Thanks! Now I understand you, and it makes total sense. I had found pretty good in-car settings, that well across the board, but there was no denying that some cars weren't providing the same range or fidelity. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of individual tunes, though. I'll deal with it, but it's just not ideal. Do you know if this will be any different in PCars2?



I don't think they changed the FFB. The FFB is derived mostly from spindle forces, which are dependent on the tire model. A major change in the tire model would make the FFB feel completely different. They've probably made other changes to the tire model along the way, that have been mistaken for FFB changes.



Agreed! I've started feeling the same way over the past few weeks. I did some testing last night based on Jack's comments about the individual in-car settings. As much as I would like to have one tune for all, I do believe he's right. I used his in-car settings before, but, at the time, I didn't have a CSW-v2, so I didn't use the globals. I tried them last night, and they're...different, but not bad. The linear FFB feels a little sluggish to me, but I was able to match my best times. I tried cherry-picking the globals, and am now focused on his Relative Adjust and Scoop settings, trying different TF/FF balances.

I will say this, though. The comments about FF=100 being bad for wheels is somewhat misleading (not that I'm going that route). When I used Jack's setting as he laid them out (FF/TF=100/75), in conjunction with his other global settings. My wheel wasn't working any harder than it normally does. In fact, it didn't even feel heavier. With my @wheel force set to 75, it was actually pretty light. I raised the @wheel to 100, and it felt firmer, but not overly strong. The wheel temp remained well within the normal range--on the lower end, if anything. Again, this was just my experience. I'm not promoting it, just sharing the results. :)



The increasing force, is how most of the other games I play work, especially F1 2015. It makes sense. The higher your cornering speed, the more force you feel as you climb toward the tires' grip threshold. I've been trying to get this in PCars, but it's been elusive. Last night, however, when I tried Jack's settings, I did get a little of that, and I'm sure it has something to do with the linearity of his settings. In fact, I don't see how you can achieve that feel without some degree of linearity. This is pretty much the main reason I want to do some testing this weekend with those settings. And by testing, I mean, seeing if they're right for me, not whether or not they're good. Like I said, it felt a little sluggish, but after about 10-15 laps, I was matching my old times, and I could see that I was getting used to it. One thing's for sure. The settings are smoother than a lot of the others I've tried, including my own. At first, it seemed like the wheel isn't as lively as other tunes, but then I realized that it had the same dynamic range, just better fidelity and less noise. An analogy would be listen to the car stereo with the windows down or up. Down, you still hear and enjoy the music, despite the wind coming through the window. But close the windows, and you experience that same song in a different way. I think we sometimes mistake noise for increased dynamic range. It feels like we're getting more from the wheel and telemetry looks more alive, but it's basically just chatter, useless information that's not really helping you driving any better. The problem is, that chatter often provides a degree of texture that can sometimes enhance the experience. So, once again, it boils down to preference. :)
fully agree on the many aspects you brought up in your post. your point about noise/chatter = texture, thus a kind of (nice) cosmetic effect but (unfortunately) without much logical cause and sense seems very valid to me. all in all i have the feeling just when we thought FFB got fully transparent to us, we realize there is still a lot more to discover.

Jack Spade
18-02-2016, 15:11
Okay. Thanks! Now I understand you, and it makes total sense. I had found pretty good in-car settings, that well across the board, but there was no denying that some cars weren't providing the same range or fidelity. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of individual tunes, though. I'll deal with it, but it's just not ideal. Do you know if this will be any different in PCars2?

The the car/tire physics model will be more advanced and in consequence FFB follows that course. In a FFB discussion in pCARS 2 forum AJ was talking about
one of his new ideas so to my estimation there will be some new features introduced, but I donīt think the basic structure will severely change. Fxmzfy etc.
is what it is and needs to be adjusted individually on each car and thatīs what you do on the car setup menu as well if you donīt want it to oversteer or
something.

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 15:17
Arm angle will change what youre talking about with the center but its kind of a weird adjustment. There isn't necessarily only one right spot. You might find a couple places it feels good but a little different. Just as a note you cant just go from one end of the adjustment to the other with that. Like we usually do to see what effect something has. Arm angle doesn't work like that. Ask me how I know.lol

and the devs measure the angle not really wrong but very unintuitively from a strange place at the steering geometry, which leads to higher steering forces with low values and lower forces with higher angles. (remark, see below). The other way round it would be right. again, since the angle is relative due to from where you look at it it's no big thing, but terribly missleading.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg... the fact that you can change the arm angle in FFB but the angle doesn't change practically at the car is just odd.

...and check out with any openwheeler how the front tires stand when you go to full lock... the "curve-outside" tire is more turned in (...ackermann) than the inner tire. it's just wrong. it must be the other way round...:D

i think if we had any idea how much flawed code the FFB has, we'd start to laugh hysterically, while we try to figure out how to set FFB best. Paradox though that optimization can be done nevertheless.

Rem.: what i said above about SPINDLE ARM ANGLE is valid within steering angles between 0 - 20 degrees. When you get closer towards full lock angles, force effects can vary extremely, due to different angles in the steering geometry on the right and left arm... then forces go with nonlinear math due to tangens equation... and then, due to a chain of many factors and since usually the curve-outside tire gets more load than the other front tire, the spindle arm angle at the curve-outsidewheel contributes more effect to the final steering force than the inner wheel's spindle arm angle which can differ drastically from the other side arm angle.

That is why morpwr is spot on: "...you cant just go from one end of the adjustment to the other with that. Like we usually do to see what effect something has. Arm angle doesn't work like that.". And it gets even weirder with the Mazda Radbul: The car offers even negative spindle arm angle... and has extreme steering angles on top of it. ...that was the moment i gave up on the spindle arm topic...

and there is more that can make you go nuts: since the spindle arm setting changes so much the FFB (and being completely and utmost non-linear)
there should be a red alert lamp blinking the moment you touch it, because due to where the module sits in the signal chain it alters all your other settings in a in-comprehensive way. Worse: While you don't change the the car's actual mechanical steering geometry the effect on the car's steering changes as if you had changed the car's set up... Why? ForceFeecback has it in its name: It's a feedback system, so when the FFB gives you different feedback (due to altered settings) you're steering changes (all happens within milliseconds) - which effects the steering/suspension geometry...

Luckily our brain adjusts anyway within a couple of laps... As many of us expressed very well. insofar it's not really a killjoy.

However - and that i find annoying - even when you know quite a lot about car physics, the pCars FFB, and driving in general, it's ridiculously difficult to drift with the cars (especially) the Radbul. The only way to master such cars in pCars is by brainlessly long training session, where you don't improve your driving skills, but just learn to adapt to pCars strange physics (when being in the burning rubber mode) and FFB until you learned to drift - even with the FFB in your way... :livid: I don't know with the Radbul, but with most normal cars, on a test-track without the fear to damage the car, you learn to drift 10 times fastern than with pCArs...

Haiden
18-02-2016, 15:52
The the car/tire physics model will be more advanced and in consequence FFB follows that course. In a FFB discussion in pCARS 2 forum AJ was talking about
one of his new ideas so to my estimation there will be some new features introduced, but I donīt think the basic structure will severely change. Fxmzfy etc.
is what it is and needs to be adjusted individually on each car and thatīs what you do on the car setup menu as well if you donīt want it to oversteer or
something.

I'm really curious to find out what PCars2's FFB will feel like. It's already one of the best feedback systems I've ever felt. Knowing they're looking to improve on it is awesome.



fully agree on the many aspects you brought up in your post. your point about noise/chatter = texture, thus a kind of (nice) cosmetic effect but (unfortunately) without much logical cause and sense seems very valid to me. all in all i have the feeling just when we thought FFB got fully transparent to us, we realize there is still a lot more to discover.

Definitely more. :)

I honestly think part of what makes it hard to climb out of the FFB rabbit hole is the fact that we’re each looking for our perfect tune. But I believe the reality is, there are actually 2-3 tunes (at least) that, if we gave ourselves enough time to settle into, we could drive and match or beat our best lap times. I think we often underestimate the amount of time our brains require to fully adjust to some of the changes we make. And therein lies the problem. In those cases, if we give ourselves the appropriate amount of time to adjust, we will forget how the old settings felt, and by the time we come back to them, the old settings may suddenly be the ones that feel strange.

The other thing that I think makes it difficult to hone in on what we like, is the fact that we’re sharing settings. While this is definitely a plus, and something that helps speeds things along, we need to remember that we’re talking about tactile, haptic feedback, and we don’t all feel things the same way. Like any sense—sight, hearing, smell—some people are more sensitive to haptic feedback that others, just like some people have higher pain tolerances. Some people can feel the tiniest piece of lint on their face; others could have a piece of tape stuck to their cheek and not realize it. :) This is something we have to keep in mind when sharing settings. The mechanical degree of fidelity may very well be constant between one person’s hardware and the next. But, how those two people perceive that fidelity may very well differ. If we don’t take that into consideration, we will constantly be chasing our unicorn. When someone say a particular force feels to low or high, it doesn’t necessarily mean the scale is wrong. It just means that the scale isn’t optimal for their sense of touch.

It reminds of client meetings I’ve had in some of Chicago’s taller buildings, like the Hancock or Sears Tower. Tall buildings are actually made to sway in high winds—some up to a few feet across center; otherwise, they’d crack from the stress. When you’re high up, you can actually feel it. Well, at least some people can. Others can’t feel it at all, because the motion is very subtle and falls outside their range of perception.

PureMalt77
18-02-2016, 16:17
We keep asking SMS about inputs on the "guts" of the FFB system.
The system is indeed very complex and is IMO what makes PCars stand out when compared to other racing games out there. I want to believe that SMS has a total clue of what is going on, but do not want to open up the recipe for others to copy, especially in a public forum! Yes, they could protect it with patents etc., but a long, tedious and expensive process...
Perhaps developers reading this thread would fell like shedding a light, but in a project like this all team members usually sign up non-disclosure agreements.
So I guess we just keep up with our experiments, sharing hints and theories and learning from each other a better driving/gaming experience. :D

tennenbaum
18-02-2016, 17:06
We keep asking SMS about inputs on the "guts" of the FFB system.
The system is indeed very complex and is IMO what makes PCars stand out when compared to other racing games out there. I want to believe that SMS has a total clue of what is going on, but do not want to open up the recipe for others to copy, especially in a public forum! Yes, they could protect it with patents etc., but a long, tedious and expensive process...
Perhaps developers reading this thread would fell like shedding a light, but in a project like this all team members usually sign up non-disclosure agreements.
So I guess we just keep up with our experiments, sharing hints and theories and learning from each other a better driving/gaming experience. :D

and let's hope the devs learn from our product- and usability tests for free ;-)

konnos
18-02-2016, 17:51
Well I am grateful about the richness of options in the FFB system, I think it's genious. It is so good that even the developers don't know how to tune it ;)

At least we have so many options to customise our settings, but it gets a bit much sometimes. Certainly if it weren't for this forum, I would have played half a game.

poirqc
18-02-2016, 22:09
When I got my T500 I used the settings in this thread its knee 94 , reduction14 but it felt good then they made a change to thrustmaster's and NEW TIRE MODEL. I think its better lower now seem to lose the lower forces when knee is that high. But then again the reduction was at 14. Road feel was good special in a straight line I could try it again with more reduction..

i thought i was in poirqc thread lol thats where i got my scoop settings at

With SK at 94, it's almost like SR is lowering the whole range. It's like moving TF down by 14. Not exactly that, but close. If you're aiming for more road feel, increasing SR while keeping SK at 94 will actually soften road feel.


I, too, think that they only changed the tire model. But why wouldn't they say that they changed the FFB? It is a little suspicious, because the changes in FFB were quite obvious, the tire changes were not some little tweak here and there.

Or maybe they didn't want to reveal that they changed FFB settings, cause you can imagine the river of questions and clarifications this fora would demand. If you have noticed, not even one explanation has been given of real use about how the system works. So i don't expect that they will reveal any more info than the assumptions you guys are making about the works behind it.

Ninja'd by Haiden
Beside Quality of Life improvements on console, the only change to FFB is probably just the Tire Model. It's still a big change because the because it's the base input of the chain. Even if the chain is the same, the output will be different since the input changed.


We keep asking SMS about inputs on the "guts" of the FFB system.
The system is indeed very complex and is IMO what makes PCars stand out when compared to other racing games out there. I want to believe that SMS has a total clue of what is going on, but do not want to open up the recipe for others to copy, especially in a public forum! Yes, they could protect it with patents etc., but a long, tedious and expensive process...
Perhaps developers reading this thread would fell like shedding a light, but in a project like this all team members usually sign up non-disclosure agreements.
So I guess we just keep up with our experiments, sharing hints and theories and learning from each other a better driving/gaming experience. :D

PCars isn't the only one to use something like FxyzMz and SoP. Dirt Rally has it also. It's not exactly the same but it's pretty close. So close that i only spent 15 minutes to fines tune the FFB to my taste.

Granted, i was able to do it because i spent so much time to understand it all, in pCars. I'll dig up a screen to show you later, i gotta go.

227827

I'm not too sure about Fy and Fx. Fy could be Tire Force for all i know. At the same time, it would be weird to not have Fy.

I must say that i didn't play Dirt Rally much. Some car felt awesome. Other less so. Some where weird. I may have missunderstood some settings. But in any case, any time spent in pCars menu will be helpfull if you play Dirt Rally.

Jack Spade
19-02-2016, 06:36
However - and that i find annoying - even when you know quite a lot about car physics, the pCars FFB, and driving in general, it's ridiculously difficult to drift with the cars (especially) the Radbul. The only way to master such cars in pCars is by brainlessly long training session, where you don't improve your driving skills, but just learn to adapt to pCars strange physics (when being in the burning rubber mode) and FFB until you learned to drift - even with the FFB in your way... :livid: I don't know with the Radbul, but with most normal cars, on a test-track without the fear to damage the car, you learn to drift 10 times fastern than with pCArs...

As I mentioned in an other posting, SMS is working on a more advanced tire model for pCARS 2, one of the features will be drifting capabilities the current model lacks,
momentarily ongoing tire tests in pCARS 2.
On the Radbul Fz and Fy are reversed to usual standard, especially negative Fy is odd. In my tweakers I have revered them "back to normal" so FFB isnīt different
to others, unfortunately you canīt do it on consoles. Also, setting steering ratio at 14:1 at least helps a lot to drive this car.

Edit: BTW my 66% tweaker version of this car is a special console setting just to deal with mentioned specifics.

tennenbaum
19-02-2016, 06:44
As I mentioned in an other posting, SMS is working on a more advanced tire model for pCARS 2, one of the features will be drifting capabilities the current model lacks,
momentarily ongoing tire tests in pCARS 2.
On the Radbul Fz and Fy are reversed to usual standard, especially negative Fy is odd. In my tweakers I have revered them "back to normal" so FFB isnīt different
to others, unfortunately you canīt do it on consoles. Also, setting steering ratio at 14:1 at least helps a lot to drive this car.

Thanks.

morpwr
19-02-2016, 10:56
Okay. Thanks! Now I understand you, and it makes total sense. I had found pretty good in-car settings, that well across the board, but there was no denying that some cars weren't providing the same range or fidelity. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of individual tunes, though. I'll deal with it, but it's just not ideal. Do you know if this will be any different in PCars2?



I don't think they changed the FFB. The FFB is derived mostly from spindle forces, which are dependent on the tire model. A major change in the tire model would make the FFB feel completely different. They've probably made other changes to the tire model along the way, that have been mistaken for FFB changes.



Agreed! I've started feeling the same way over the past few weeks. I did some testing last night based on Jack's comments about the individual in-car settings. As much as I would like to have one tune for all, I do believe he's right. I used his in-car settings before, but, at the time, I didn't have a CSW-v2, so I didn't use the globals. I tried them last night, and they're...different, but not bad. The linear FFB feels a little sluggish to me, but I was able to match my best times. I tried cherry-picking the globals, and am now focused on his Relative Adjust and Scoop settings, trying different TF/FF balances.

I will say this, though. The comments about FF=100 being bad for wheels is somewhat misleading (not that I'm going that route). When I used Jack's setting as he laid them out (FF/TF=100/75), in conjunction with his other global settings. My wheel wasn't working any harder than it normally does. In fact, it didn't even feel heavier. With my @wheel force set to 75, it was actually pretty light. I raised the @wheel to 100, and it felt firmer, but not overly strong. The wheel temp remained well within the normal range--on the lower end, if anything. Again, this was just my experience. I'm not promoting it, just sharing the results. :)



The increasing force, is how most of the other games I play work, especially F1 2015. It makes sense. The higher your cornering speed, the more force you feel as you climb toward the tires' grip threshold. I've been trying to get this in PCars, but it's been elusive. Last night, however, when I tried Jack's settings, I did get a little of that, and I'm sure it has something to do with the linearity of his settings. In fact, I don't see how you can achieve that feel without some degree of linearity. This is pretty much the main reason I want to do some testing this weekend with those settings. And by testing, I mean, seeing if they're right for me, not whether or not they're good. Like I said, it felt a little sluggish, but after about 10-15 laps, I was matching my old times, and I could see that I was getting used to it. One thing's for sure. The settings are smoother than a lot of the others I've tried, including my own. At first, it seemed like the wheel isn't as lively as other tunes, but then I realized that it had the same dynamic range, just better fidelity and less noise. An analogy would be listen to the car stereo with the windows down or up. Down, you still hear and enjoy the music, despite the wind coming through the window. But close the windows, and you experience that same song in a different way. I think we sometimes mistake noise for increased dynamic range. It feels like we're getting more from the wheel and telemetry looks more alive, but it's basically just chatter, useless information that's not really helping you driving any better. The problem is, that chatter often provides a degree of texture that can sometimes enhance the experience. So, once again, it boils down to preference. :)

Haiden ,
About the ff at 100. Remember you have another adjustment for strength at your wheel so I can see setting it at 100 being fine on a v2. The problem begins when you take that extra one away. That forces you to use ffb settings as a volume control for strength instead of just using the ffb master. As for jacks car settings I always wind up back at his no matter what I try. They just feel right to me not saying anybody elses are wrong just different. I gave the fa a try the other night and zero oscillation at high speeds. I know that's one of you favorites. Did you try turning the rab down yet?

Androphonomania
19-02-2016, 11:17
Thx for the settings grimey. They work great. Using it with a t500, ff @ 38, fz = 60.

spacepadrille
19-02-2016, 11:30
Hi All !

After 10 days completely off (ski, no internet, no wheel), the Thrustmaster support returns me this morning a new base for my T300RS ! :cool: The previous one was weird, with a strange notch sound around the middle.

So I'm back now ! For me it's new wheel, reseted game and settings and new patch 9 ! After 15min on W Glen short & Ruf I can say that the feeling is very different, but of course I cannot say if it's coming from the wheel or from the game, or most surely from both ;-) Maybe I'm messed with the camera settings also, I can't remember if I was using view to apex or not, and other things...

A lot of new stuff to read on this thread, I can see with pleasure that everybody shares and talks with high respect and good scientific attitude, and that patch 9 seems to make everyone happy. That's good !

BigDad
19-02-2016, 12:00
I think i finally found the sweeeeet spot for my Fanatec 911 GT2 if anyone is interested .

TF 75
DRR 0.11
DRF 0.01
RAG 1.50
RAB 0.10
RAC 0.85
SK 0.86
SR 0.28
No SCH / SCF
Steering Gain 125
In Game FFB 50
JS 66%

Don't ask Who's these settings are , lol
But seriously they are the biz , under / oversteer , bumps , lumps , lock ups , getting light over crest and heavy in dips .
For me the wheel weight feels about right , Ruf GT3 's a bit heavy and direct and the Zonda roadster feels light and frisky , haven't tried all my favorites but on Brands and Rouen le essarts these feel about right .
After all my laps with all sorts of settings i finally feel i could be there .
Any feed back from you eggspurts would be great .

Cheers .


Edit , how's to who's ,lol

morpwr
19-02-2016, 12:08
eggspurts I love it!!!! lol

tennenbaum
19-02-2016, 13:26
I think i finally found the sweeeeet spot for my Fanatec 911 GT2 if anyone is interested .

TF 75
DRR 0.11
DRF 0.01
RAG 1.50
RAB 0.10
RAC 0.85
SK 0.86
SR 0.28
No SCH / SCF
Steering Gain 125
In Game FFB 50
JS 66%

Don't ask how's these settings are , lol
But seriously they are the biz , under / oversteer , bumps , lumps , lock ups , getting light over crest and heavy in dips .
For me the wheel weight feels about right , Ruf GT3 's a bit heavy and direct and the Zonda roadster feels light and frisky , haven't tried all my favorites but on Brands and Rouen le essarts these feel about right .
After all my laps with all sorts of settings i finally feel i could be there .
Any feed back from you eggspurts would be great .

Cheers .

with patch 8.0 or 9.0?

BigDad
19-02-2016, 13:48
9.0 , why , you like or not ?

I wasn't going for times just yet only feel although i was doing 44's around Brands in the Ruf .

Haiden
19-02-2016, 16:16
Haiden ,
About the ff at 100. Remember you have another adjustment for strength at your wheel so I can see setting it at 100 being fine on a v2. The problem begins when you take that extra one away. That forces you to use ffb settings as a volume control for strength instead of just using the ffb master. As for jacks car settings I always wind up back at his no matter what I try. They just feel right to me not saying anybody elses are wrong just different. I gave the fa a try the other night and zero oscillation at high speeds. I know that's one of you favorites. Did you try turning the rab down yet?

Oh, definitely! I’m only speaking about the CSW-v2, because that's what I'm using. I've even removed the Xb1 from my signature, because I haven't played PCars on it in months, so I didn't feel it should be in my sig anymore.

There are a number things that make the FF=100 work with Jack's settings—low RAC, high SK and SR, and reduced TF. If you don't make these adjustments to compensate, the result isn't the same. He's also lowering the Spring force at the wheel level (SPr=50) and setting Dri to 3 (Dri lightens the wheel to increase fidelity). So for Clubsport users, the settings works great as-is. Anyone else—both PC and console—would need to make some adjustments to make them work, which I’m sure is why he refers to it as a starting point. Yes, PC players do have a driver control panel, but that may not be the same as the CSW-v2's on wheel Dri and SPr settings, so even PC racers using other wheels have to take that into consideration.

Regardless what FF setting you use, my experience has been, if you don’t send enough force to the wheel, you get a loose rattling kind of feel that I particularly do not like. I think it’s due to an inadequate level of saturation. We often talk about saturation, but only in terms of oversaturation. I think this fear of oversaturation, causes some people to go too low. I believe inadequate saturation is one of things that leads to useless noise/chatter in the wheel. Of course, as we mentioned before, some drivers may like a certain degree of noise for texture, and lower levels of saturation can increase fidelity. But IMO, it is possible to starve a wheel by going to low. I also think the lack of extraneous chatter/noise when the wheel is properly saturated is one of the reasons people who like the noise (or have just become used to it) think properly saturated settings feel bland and numb. That was definitely the case with me. But this week, since I’ve been messing with Jack’s global settings, I’ve started to see and understand the difference. I wasn’t able to use his settings before with my T300 and TX, and by the time I got my CSW-v2, I had become accustom to the texture created from the additional noise. But once I truly settled into the new feel (it took days and a lot of back and forth :) ), I noticed three things. One, I started matching my old lap times without even feeling like I was driving on the edge. It was just easier. Two, when I started pushing to get that feeling of being on the edge, I was seeing my grip indicators push into the red way more often than before, and I’m better able to hold the car there longer. And three, not only am I better at catching slides, but I’m also better able to hold a slide, if I choose, and maintain directional control, until I’m ready to straighten up and power out on corner exit. I didn’t have that kind of control before, and I think it’s because of the extraneous noise that was in the wheel. If you have any other games—F1 2015, FM6, etc—compare the feel. They're smoother and don't have as much noise. Personally, I think I mistook the noise as one of the indicators that PCars' had more dynamic range than other games. Which I believe it does, I think I just misunderstood how that additional range is represented/communicated in the wheel.

A couple other things I’ve noticed about these global settings. There’s a distinct difference between low and high cornering forces. Which is the way it should be. Low speed corners, shouldn’t produce the same level of force as high speed corners. And there’s also a difference in curb feel. Most of the other settings I’ve tried, include my own, simply change the way you feel the curbs. Some feel hard, some feel smooth, but you can drive over them all without much penalty—the tires maintain an adequate amount of grip and you can easily counter steer through the slight pull. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic. IRL, while grip may not be an issue, some curbs disturb the wheel more than others, and drivers avoid these types of curbs at all costs. It’s not for fear of losing grip, but because the curb disturbs the wheel too much during cornering and takes you off line. I’m now feeling a more realistic representation of this. Now, that’s a preference thing, because it’s definitely making it harder for me, as I now have to be more precise in certain corners and can no longer steal a bit of curb in some places without losing time. For me, that makes the game more realistic and therefore more enjoyable. But I tend to favor realism over lap times. If lap times are more important to you, then you’d be better off with settings that let you feel the curb without the steering penalty.

tennenbaum
19-02-2016, 17:18
9.0 , why , you like or not ?

I wasn't going for times just yet only feel although i was doing 44's around Brands in the Ruf .

do you have the feeling 9.0 gives better FFB feel?
i didn't test 9.0 yet. and i didn't have time yet to test your setting (curious!). Though you got a CWS, i have a t300 - might make some difference... SK and SR seems to change the sweet-spot more than i was thinking.
also i have to test morpwr's settings first. i like his idea to set RAB to 0.01...

tennenbaum
19-02-2016, 17:20
Oh, definitely! I’m only speaking about the CSW-v2, because that's what I'm using. I've even removed the Xb1 from my signature, because I haven't played PCars on it in months, so I didn't feel it should be in my sig anymore.

There are a number things that make the FF=100 work with Jack's settings—low RAC, high SK and SR, and reduced TF. If you don't make these adjustments to compensate, the result isn't the same. He's also lowering the Spring force at the wheel level (SPr=50) and setting Dri to 3 (Dri lightens the wheel to increase fidelity). So for Clubsport users, the settings works great as-is. Anyone else—both PC and console—would need to make some adjustments to make them work, which I’m sure is why he refers to it as a starting point. Yes, PC players do have a driver control panel, but that may not be the same as the CSW-v2's on wheel Dri and SPr settings, so even PC racers using other wheels have to take that into consideration.

Regardless what FF setting you use, my experience has been, if you don’t send enough force to the wheel, you get a loose rattling kind of feel that I particularly do not like. I think it’s due to an inadequate level of saturation. We often talk about saturation, but only in terms of oversaturation. I think this fear of oversaturation, causes some people to go too low. I believe inadequate saturation is one of things that leads to useless noise/chatter in the wheel. Of course, as we mentioned before, some drivers may like a certain degree of noise for texture, and lower levels of saturation can increase fidelity. But IMO, it is possible to starve a wheel by going to low. I also think the lack of extraneous chatter/noise when the wheel is properly saturated is one of the reasons people who like the noise (or have just become used to it) think properly saturated settings feel bland and numb. That was definitely the case with me. But this week, since I’ve been messing with Jack’s global settings, I’ve started to see and understand the difference. I wasn’t able to use his settings before with my T300 and TX, and by the time I got my CSW-v2, I had become accustom to the texture created from the additional noise. But once I truly settled into the new feel (it took days and a lot of back and forth :) ), I noticed three things. One, I started matching my old lap times without even feeling like I was driving on the edge. It was just easier. Two, when I started pushing to get that feeling of being on the edge, I was seeing my grip indicators push into the red way more often than before, and I’m better able to hold the car there longer. And three, not only am I better at catching slides, but I’m also better able to hold a slide, if I choose, and maintain directional control, until I’m ready to straighten up and power out on corner exit. I didn’t have that kind of control before, and I think it’s because of the extraneous noise that was in the wheel. If you have any other games—F1 2015, FM6, etc—compare the feel. They're smoother and don't have as much noise. Personally, I think I mistook the noise as one of the indicators that PCars' had more dynamic range than other games. Which I believe it does, I think I just misunderstood how that additional range is represented/communicated in the wheel.

A couple other things I’ve noticed about these global settings. There’s a distinct difference between low and high cornering forces. Which is the way it should be. Low speed corners, shouldn’t produce the same level of force as high speed corners. And there’s also a difference in curb feel. Most of the other settings I’ve tried, include my own, simply change the way you feel the curbs. Some feel hard, some feel smooth, but you can drive over them all without much penalty—the tires maintain an adequate amount of grip and you can easily counter steer through the slight pull. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic. IRL, while grip may not be an issue, some curbs disturb the wheel more than others, and drivers avoid these types of curbs at all costs. It’s not for fear of losing grip, but because the curb disturbs the wheel too much during cornering and takes you off line. I’m now feeling a more realistic representation of this. Now, that’s a preference thing, because it’s definitely making it harder for me, as I now have to be more precise in certain corners and can no longer steal a bit of curb in some places without losing time. For me, that makes the game more realistic and therefore more enjoyable. But I tend to favor realism over lap times. If lap times are more important to you, then you’d be better off with settings that let you feel the curb without the steering penalty.

sounds all good, but did you change your settings, or why did chatter/noise go away? :D

Haiden
19-02-2016, 17:47
sounds all good, but did you change your settings, or why did chatter/noise go away? :D

I did. I started with Jack's globals, and then went back to the default settings, and started integrating different aspects of his settings one by one--RAs, then SK and SR, etc. While doing this, I started to realize that the dynamic range was still there, even though the wheel felt smoother. I still feel all of the track undulations, weight transfer, and tire slips I did before, as well as some improved feels, like the effects of braking and acceleration at the wheel, just without all the background chatter. Track characteristics also seem more inline with reality to me. Rough tracks have a lot more texture than the smoother tracks. Before, I felt like I was getting too much texture from tracks with smoother RL surfaces. Now, I feel the texture in applicable areas, but there's a distinct difference between tracks like Dubai (relatively new and very well maintained) and Watkins Glen.

I'll update my settings link later this weekend, after I'm done testing. I'm climbing out of the rabbit hole for good. AC comes out in a few months, and from the console gameplay I've seen online, it looks like it's going to replace FM6 for me. Also, after almost two straight weeks of playing and not FFB tuning, I realized how much fun I've been missing out on chasing the unicorn of FFB perfection :) So far, these new settings feel great to me, and I think it's just time to make a decision, lock it down, and get back to racing. :)

tennenbaum
19-02-2016, 17:54
I did. I started with Jack's globals, and then went back to the default settings, and started integrating different aspects of his settings one by one--RAs, then SK and SR, etc. While doing this, I started to realize that the dynamic range was still there, even though the wheel felt smoother. I still feel all of the track undulations, weight transfer, and tire slips I did before, as well as some improved feels, like the effects of braking and acceleration at the wheel, just without all the background chatter. Track characteristics also seem more inline with reality to me. Rough tracks have a lot more texture than the smoother tracks. Before, I felt like I was getting too much texture from tracks with smoother RL surfaces. Now, I feel the texture in applicable areas, but there's a distinct difference between tracks like Dubai (relatively new and very well maintained) and Watkins Glen.

I'll update my settings link later this weekend, after I'm done testing. I'm climbing out of the rabbit hole for good. AC comes out in a few months, and from the console gameplay I've seen online, it looks like it's going to replace FM6 for me. Also, after almost two straight weeks of playing and not FFB tuning, I realized how much fun I've been missing out on chasing the unicorn of FFB perfection :) So far, these new settings feel great to me, and I think it's just time to make a decision, lock it down, and get back to racing. :)

me curious ;-)

morpwr
19-02-2016, 18:04
I did. I started with Jack's globals, and then went back to the default settings, and started integrating different aspects of his settings one by one--RAs, then SK and SR, etc. While doing this, I started to realize that the dynamic range was still there, even though the wheel felt smoother. I still feel all of the track undulations, weight transfer, and tire slips I did before, as well as some improved feels, like the effects of braking and acceleration at the wheel, just without all the background chatter. Track characteristics also seem more inline with reality to me. Rough tracks have a lot more texture than the smoother tracks. Before, I felt like I was getting too much texture from tracks with smoother RL surfaces. Now, I feel the texture in applicable areas, but there's a distinct difference between tracks like Dubai (relatively new and very well maintained) and Watkins Glen.

I'll update my settings link later this weekend, after I'm done testing. I'm climbing out of the rabbit hole for good. AC comes out in a few months, and from the console gameplay I've seen online, it looks like it's going to replace FM6 for me. Also, after almost two straight weeks of playing and not FFB tuning, I realized how much fun I've been missing out on chasing the unicorn of FFB perfection :) So far, these new settings feel great to me, and I think it's just time to make a decision, lock it down, and get back to racing. :)

I'm in the same boat as you. The realism part is important to me that's why I always wind up back at jacks settings. None of the effects are exaggerated or overpowering. Granted wheel settings still need to be good.

Haiden
19-02-2016, 18:06
me curious ;-)

You'll definitely have to make some adjustments, though, because they're highly dependent on a few wheel level settings. But I think you can compensate for most of them elsewhere, except maybe the Dri setting.

morpwr
19-02-2016, 19:21
do you have the feeling 9.0 gives better FFB feel?
i didn't test 9.0 yet. and i didn't have time yet to test your setting (curious!). Though you got a CWS, i have a t300 - might make some difference... SK and SR seems to change the sweet-spot more than i was thinking.
also i have to test morpwr's settings first. i like his idea to set RAB to 0.01...

.02RAB I don't think I ever tried it at .01. Maybe ill give that a try tonight. Yes sk and sr make a big difference. Especially sk it does weird things especially if its too high. Its almost like it leaves a hole in the ffb. I think sr has more of a fudge factor as long as its within reason.

poirqc
19-02-2016, 19:50
.02RAB I don't think I ever tried it at .01. Maybe ill give that a try tonight. Yes sk and sr make a big difference. Especially sk it does weird things especially if its too high. Its almost like it leaves a hole in the ffb. I think sr has more of a fudge factor as long as its within reason.

RAB at 0,01 or 0,02 is probably pretty close. The at least of 0,01 is only so that the wheel doesn't decenter itself over time.

BigDad
19-02-2016, 20:00
do you have the feeling 9.0 gives better FFB feel?
i didn't test 9.0 yet. and i didn't have time yet to test your setting (curious!). Though you got a CWS, i have a t300 - might make some difference... SK and SR seems to change the sweet-spot more than i was thinking.
also i have to test morpwr's settings first. i like his idea to set RAB to 0.01...
I wish i had a CSW but I'm poor ,lol .
Yes after 9.0 i feel the ffb has been better than ever , hope you get some testing time soon as i'll be inerested in your findings .
0.01 ? Wow , I've never gone down there before !

morpwr
19-02-2016, 20:46
RAB at 0,01 or 0,02 is probably pretty close. The at least of 0,01 is only so that the wheel doesn't decenter itself over time.

Thanks poirqc I knew you had said something about low rab numbers but I couldn't remember exactly what it was. So better to stay quiet.lol

poirqc
19-02-2016, 21:18
Thanks poirqc I knew you had said something about low rab numbers but I couldn't remember exactly what it was. So better to stay quiet.lol

The way i see it,(no actual secret fact here), is that, RA's can be used in different ways. You don't really need to use all of them.

bManics's famous example:
RAG 1,5
RAB < 0,30
RAC 2,0
With the aboves, you're using RAG and RAB to spice up the FFB, but it doesn't compress anything.

another example:
RAG 1
RAB 0,01
RAC 0,8(anything below 1)
RAs doesn't actually(really) spice anything. But you're using it to deal with clipping only.

Other combination possible, of course, etc...

Haiden
19-02-2016, 21:20
me curious ;-)

Also, forgot to mention. Even with the smoother feel, I can still feel the paint, crossing the line at Watkins. In fact, I actually feel it even more clearly now that the noise is gone. So the fine detail is still there. The wheel just seems quieter without the extraneous chatter.

poirqc
19-02-2016, 22:01
Also, forgot to mention. Even with the smoother feel, I can still feel the paint, crossing the line at Watkins. In fact, I actually feel it even more clearly now that the noise is gone. So the fine detail is still there. The wheel just seems quieter without the extraneous chatter.

Common, just post them settings!

Tease.

Haiden
19-02-2016, 22:16
Common, just post them settings!

Tease.

LOL... Just want to make sure they're final before I do. So far, I've matched or beat my best time on every track I've tried. I'm just running down the list. Ran Silverstone in the Marek LMP1, and I can honestly say that car has never felt to good. First tuen, I was like... wow. Although, I haven't really driven anything in that class, since 8.0, so not sure how much is the tune vs the update with that one.

GrimeyDog
19-02-2016, 22:16
Brian Beckman: The Physics in Games - Real Time Simulation Explained (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GQCZgCNw8&index=8&list=LLC8nygV2cxirmiTbS0_qHSA)

Very very interesting Video!!! Its long but i suggest watching the entire video there is great Knowledge contained in this Video!!!

You Guy are Going to need bigger calculators!!!

Edit: Pay special attention from the 30min mark On!!! You guys are going to need a huge super computer calculator!!!

Divergence!!! Listen for it pay attention!!! Video also explains why the cars when exiting the pits the there was a huge jerk in the wheel that cause you to crash control went from CPU to Player.

GrimeyDog
19-02-2016, 22:40
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175

Great question tenenbaum!!! Great info here also!!!

I've been testing, Reserching, and you guy really really going to need a Bigger calculator!!! IMO

BigDad
20-02-2016, 01:10
LOL... Just want to make sure they're final before I do. So far, I've matched or beat my best time on every track I've tried. I'm just running down the list. Ran Silverstone in the Marek LMP1, and I can honestly say that car has never felt to good. First tuen, I was like... wow. Although, I haven't really driven anything in that class, since 8.0, so not sure how much is the tune vs the update with that one.
I'd like to have a go also .
FFB is something i enjoy but getting sick of tests and no racing .

poirqc
20-02-2016, 01:12
LOL... Just want to make sure they're final before I do. So far, I've matched or beat my best time on every track I've tried. I'm just running down the list. Ran Silverstone in the Marek LMP1, and I can honestly say that car has never felt to good. First tuen, I was like... wow. Although, I haven't really driven anything in that class, since 8.0, so not sure how much is the tune vs the update with that one.

If you have the time, it would be kind of you to post wheelcheck data based on the built-in settings you're using with your latest tune. I wonder if i can adapt it for my G27.

Thanks,

Haiden
20-02-2016, 01:37
If you have the time, it would be kind of you to post wheelcheck data based on the built-in settings you're using with your latest tune. I wonder if i can adapt it for my G27.

Thanks,

Sorry, but that's not something I mess with. Ask Jack, though. He might have the data. I used his tune as a starting point, and didn't really stray too far from them. I think the only difference right now is that I'm not using any dead zone removal.

GrimeyDog
20-02-2016, 03:16
Regardless what FF setting you use, my experience has been, if you don’t send enough force to the wheel, you get a loose rattling kind of feel that I particularly do not like. I think it’s due to an inadequate level of saturation. We often talk about saturation, but only in terms of oversaturation. I think this fear of oversaturation, causes some people to go too low. I believe inadequate saturation is one of things that leads to useless noise/chatter in the wheel. Of course, as we mentioned before, some drivers may like a certain degree of noise for texture, and lower levels of saturation can increase fidelity. But IMO, it is possible to starve a wheel by going to low. I also think the lack of extraneous chatter/noise when the wheel is properly saturated is one of the reasons people who like the noise (or have just become used to it) think properly saturated settings feel bland and numb. That was definitely the case with me. But this week, since I’ve been messing with Jack’s global settings, I’ve started to see and understand the difference. I wasn’t able to use his settings before with my T300 and TX, and by the time I got my CSW-v2, I had become accustom to the texture created from the additional noise. But once I truly settled into the new feel (it took days and a lot of back and forth :) ), I noticed three things. One, I started matching my old lap times without even feeling like I was driving on the edge. It was just easier. Two, when I started pushing to get that feeling of being on the edge, I was seeing my grip indicators push into the red way more often than before, and I’m better able to hold the car there longer. And three, not only am I better at catching slides, but I’m also better able to hold a slide, if I choose, and maintain directional control, until I’m ready to straighten up and power out on corner exit. I didn’t have that kind of control before, and I think it’s because of the extraneous noise that was in the wheel. If you have any other games—F1 2015, FM6, etc—compare the feel. They're smoother and don't have as much noise. Personally, I think I mistook the noise as one of the indicators that PCars' had more dynamic range than other games. Which I believe it does, I think I just misunderstood how that additional range is represented/communicated in the wheel.

A couple other things I’ve noticed about these global settings. There’s a distinct difference between low and high cornering forces. Which is the way it should be. Low speed corners, shouldn’t produce the same level of force as high speed corners. And there’s also a difference in curb feel. Most of the other settings I’ve tried, include my own, simply change the way you feel the curbs. Some feel hard, some feel smooth, but you can drive over them all without much penalty—the tires maintain an adequate amount of grip and you can easily counter steer through the slight pull. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic. IRL, while grip may not be an issue, some curbs disturb the wheel more than others, and drivers avoid these types of curbs at all costs. It’s not for fear of losing grip, but because the curb disturbs the wheel too much during cornering and takes you off line. I’m now feeling a more realistic representation of this. Now, that’s a preference thing, because it’s definitely making it harder for me, as I now have to be more precise in certain corners and can no longer steal a bit of curb in some places without losing time. For me, that makes the game more realistic and therefore more enjoyable. But I tend to favor realism over lap times. If lap times are more important to you, then you’d be better off with settings that let you feel the curb without the steering penalty.


I agree

Following Excerpt taken from another forum... This explains why with the new tire model i was able to add Fx to My tweek and now it feels better than ever!!! the way Fx was implemented before in other updates adding "Fx" took away Much more feeling than it gave...IMO

"Now Fx (directional force) will oppose Fy by nature as it wishes to keep the wheel moving in the direction of travel, while the lateral force tries to change the direction due to its side impacting nature.
Personally I like to keep these values equal because they oppose each other. If you start to mess with them, than basically you change the impact of the physics engine upon itself, cause the FFB motor directly changes the position of the wheels via the position sensor in your steering wheel. So anything that alters the weight of the tyre forces, alters the physics in a sense through the FFB wheel that feeds back into the game engine.

That said... you could basically say that Mz is kind of a volume knob for your caster, that increases or decreases the gain on Fx and Fy coming through. But again... I am of the opinion that all these forces should be in equilibrium with each other.
Fz is the normal force... so gravity and any other verticle forces that act upon the tyre. Gravity is of course also something that shouldn't be put out of whack.

So all in all, Mz Fxyz... leave them at equal levels for natural feedback from the game. If the game thus doesn't feel natural, it must be something in either the tyre physics or suspension geometry causing it to feel wrong."


Haiden except "If you have any other games—F1 2015, FM6, etc—compare the feel. They're smoother and don't have as much noise. Personally, I think I mistook the noise as one of the indicators that PCars' had more dynamic range than other games. Which I believe it does, I think I just misunderstood how that additional range is represented/communicated in the wheel. "

This is true but you can also feel the difference in tracks on Pcars also Spa is a very Smooth track and the road feel is much smoother than most other tracks... I used Watkins Glen Gp/short for bump feel while i use Spa and Bruno to rule out or check to see if i have unnecessary noise in the wheel FFB... a good rule of thumb is that tracks that Formula cars race on are going to be smoother than most....Also i use camera Shake at the default setting and i drive in car view Only... The camera Shake while driving in car view puts it all together because you see the dash board Shaking around, you Hear the Bumps knocks and tire struggling for grip and it all makes sense according to what you feel in your wheel.

I've noticed that there are subtle but substantial differences between PS4 and XB1 Pcars...IMO PS4 Pcars has finer Road detail and feel to it... I play both systems with the v2 wheel and Tx 458 w/T500 pedals I use the same exact FFB settings and i can feel more detail in the PS4 version...i think this maybe the result of MS New wheel FFB protocol...it may Not be fully perfected where as the PS4 and PC still use the same tried and true FFB protocol that been used for years.

For me the quest for the best FFB was over with 6.0, 7.0 was a huge step backwards IMO... 8.0 got a little better but 9.0 is the Best of all!!! i only wish they would have added the tires changing to red when hot back so i can know when to push without having to look at my telemetry... but i can live with it as is

9.0 tire model allowed me to add the missing element "Fx" to my tweek and i love it Now!!! I spent all week testing different cars with the same in car FFB and they all work great...with the exception of FA cars because the Oscillation you get with them is Violent with my tweek to say the least!!! But the default FFB is Good enough that i can drive the FA cars as they are No in car FFB Tweeking needed.

When tweeking the FFB for different wheels there is a small factor that must be considered... The v2,v1 and CSR Elite use Wheel rims that are larger in diameter... This means that a CSW v2/1, CSR E wheel user will prefer what seems to be stronger FFB but this is not really the case...the wheel rim being larger in diameter gives greater leverage than the smaller rim size on the T300,Tx 458 or Logitec wheels which makes the FFB and wheel weight feel stronger when using 1 of the latter wheels.... this can be over come by setting the proper at the wheel FFB strength level and Decreasing either the RAC to reduce the FFB forces in whole or by adjusting the individual in car FFB masters to taste.

I use GM FFBPS4 35/ XB1 25 TF 1.00, RAG 1.00, Steering gain 1.00, 100 in car masters and low "Fx", "Fy" etc... some use TF 75, steering gain 125+, and higher GM FFB than i use... when you really really look at it its all the same thing were just getting the FFB Power from different parts of the FFB system that seem most important to us... I guess it really just depends on how your brain is wiredhttp://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/smilies/victorious.png

I look at all the various tweeks being used and its all seems to be the same thing just people are getting the FFB Power from different parts of the FFB system i don't use any setting over 1.00/ 100 its just the way my brain is wired I'm very symmetrical, half left Brain half right brain... I went at Pcars FFB equation from a right brain approach simple creative and innovative while tennebaum, Poirqc, Jack spade the mathematical genius line up went at it from a left brain approach...the method applied really is determined by who you are and how you view things... in my case me being very left brain also i decided that it was best to take a simple approach because when Pcars first launched with all the bugs and glitches plus the lack of a official SMS Guide to FFB tweeking i decided that nothing with the FFB made sense, it was a Enigma and Paradox:confused: at the same time!!! nothing added up so i quickly abandoned the mathematical approach just tooo much to deal with and we still don't have any definite answers from SMS about the mathematical mechanics of Pcars till this day... How ever the simple approach for me has paid off!!! i understand all the math that can be applied to the FFB Tweek but there are many Variables that we don't have the base #'s for to create a true mathematical tweek formula.




For me the FFB paradx is over!!! It Feels great now that i have a Good understanding of the settings and a method to tweek and adjust them for best feel:yes:

I am 100% sure that i can adjust my tweek as is to fit and feel with No Clipping to any wheel as it does on the v2 according to the wheel being used to Maximize the FFB the wheel is capable of putting out.

IMO the Most important part of the FFB system was and still is still the Relative and Scoop settings.


LOL ... Now that the feel is right... I have been burning my Head up since 9.0 dropped trying to figure out the mathematical Mechanics of Pcars to no avail:no::no::no:
but I'm Not even going to go too deep down that rabbit hole!!! its just time to race Perfect my Lines and use this great immersive FFB to scorch some great lap times... I'm Not even a lap time whore either!!! Nope I'm really not... i just use the lap times as a marker to tell which FFB give me the best feel and lets me push the hardest... i post the videos here and show the settings as positive proof that the FFB tweeking works and will help get consistent and better laps when you find your FFB sweet spot.

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-02-2016, 08:10
You guys where talking RA again lol. I have tried gain lower with a higher bleed and clamp was 1.12 or something this was before patch 8. You probably can run bleed up higher and i know it gets sticky but when i was testing this i kept dropping gain. And it felt like it help out the sticky feeling but you can only go so far you start to lose it . But the feel you get with a higher bleed its great tires hit the curb's and rumble strips it seems to want to yank the wheel out your hands.

But i'm about done testing after this weekend i should be good I'm happy now but there is always something new to try or re try etc etc etc lol.

tennenbaum
20-02-2016, 08:14
Quote Originally Posted by Haiden View Post
Also, forgot to mention. Even with the smoother feel, I can still feel the paint, crossing the line at Watkins. In fact, I actually feel it even more clearly now that the noise is gone. So the fine detail is still there. The wheel just seems quieter without the extraneous chatter.


Common, just post them settings!

Tease.

Common, just post the settings!

Tease. ;)

tennenbaum
20-02-2016, 08:18
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ffb-suggestion.328011/page-4#post-11224175

Great question tenenbaum!!! Great info here also!!!

I've been testing, Reserching, and you guy really really going to need a Bigger calculator!!! IMO

Unfortunateley LogiForce didn't answer yet to my question that was left (about Fz). It's a pity because LogiForce is a force... :-)

GrimeyDog
20-02-2016, 09:19
Unfortunateley LogiForce didn't answer yet to my question that was left (about Fz). It's a pity because LogiForce is a force... :-)


i was reading through and pondering your question also...i think it has alot to do with the specific cars and torque... high torque cars will affect the way "Mz" and "Fz" react when you slam on the gas coming out of a curve affecting weight transfer... or even just jam the gas from a stand still... the rear of the car always wants to push to the right.


The rocket bunny is a great example of this especially when the turbo is spooling up!!!

Haiden
20-02-2016, 15:43
When tweeking the FFB for different wheels there is a small factor that must be considered... The v2,v1 and CSR Elite use Wheel rims that are larger in diameter... This means that a CSW v2/1, CSR E wheel user will prefer what seems to be stronger FFB but this is not really the case...the wheel rim being larger in diameter gives greater leverage than the smaller rim size on the T300,Tx 458 or Logitec wheels which makes the FFB and wheel weight feel stronger when using 1 of the latter wheels.... this can be over come by setting the proper at the wheel FFB strength level and Decreasing either the RAC to reduce the FFB forces in whole or by adjusting the individual in car FFB masters to taste.

IMO the Most important part of the FFB system was and still is still the Relative and Scoop settings.


The weight of the rim also matters. There may not be much different between the round rims, but the GT style rim with the universal hub is significantly heavier than the F1 rim. Rim weight and leverage are the reason I try to tune my FFB so that I set the on wheel FF at about 85 for the F1 rim, which gives me some room to turn it up about 10 increments when I switch to my GT rim. Rim weight also affects the feel of the FFB. The heaver the rim, the harder it is for the motor to rotate it, which has a slight muffling effect on the FFB detail. Another reason people increase the forces with larger rims.

I agree. The Relative Adjust and Scoop settings are the first things to get sorted to your personal taste.

PureMalt77
20-02-2016, 16:41
Pcars 9.0 FFB test... feels spot On!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU)
...
Of course Watkins short... 1:06.8xx ...

So I finally took the time to try to adapt Grimey's setting into my T300, and also test/compare with my previous settings and with morpwr.

Watkins Glen Short, RUF-GT3, only change to fuel amount as to Grimey's vid (24l) and using ABS as the only assist.

1. My previous settings, In-Car FFB at default 100/100/100/100
227937

2. morpwr settings from oscarrolim site, In-Car JS Classic (I think is what he uses)
227938

3. Grimey's (adapted) settings, using his 10/30/100/100 in-car from the PDF
227939

TBH, lap times are not changing drastically. I guess I will never crack below 1:07 anyway...
I had to change the overall FFB, DDR and Scoop values from Grimey's setup to the T300. His setup not only gave me the best lap, but also Theoretical Best, just very short to brake the damn 1.07 barrier. But apart of lap times, I fell I'm more constant and have better ability to save the car when something goes wrong. With his and morpwr setup, I can feel the paint at the start/finish line.

Link to the settings: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/162

But one thing I don't really get is the high-speed corner. None of the 3 setups gives me a proper "feel" of sliding/understeer, and I have the impression my guide might come 10% from the wheel, but the rest is visual+audio. I'm not even sure right now what I should feel in this condition... :grief:

GrimeyDog
20-02-2016, 19:12
So I finally took the time to try to adapt Grimey's setting into my T300, and also test/compare with my previous settings and with morpwr.

Watkins Glen Short, RUF-GT3, only change to fuel amount as to Grimey's vid (24l) and using ABS as the only assist.

1. My previous settings, In-Car FFB at default 100/100/100/100
227937

2. morpwr settings from oscarrolim site, In-Car JS Classic (I think is what he uses)
227938

3. Grimey's (adapted) settings, using his 10/30/100/100 in-car from the PDF
227939

TBH, lap times are not changing drastically. I guess I will never crack below 1:17 anyway...
I had to change the overall FFB, DDR and Scoop values from Grimey's setup to the T300. His setup not only gave me the best lap, but also Theoretical Best, just very short to brake the damn 1.17 barrier. But apart of lap times, I fell I'm more constant and have better ability to save the car when something goes wrong. With his and morpwr setup, I can feel the paint at the start/finish line.

Link to the settings: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/162

But one thing I don't really get is the high-speed corner. None of the 3 setups gives me a proper "feel" of sliding/understeer, and I have the impression my guide might come 10% from the wheel, but the rest is visual+audio. I'm not even sure right now what I should feel in this condition... :grief:

The Lap Times are always going to be reasonably Close... its all about consistent lap times ...If you can be .125 a corner in 4 corner thats a 1/2 second lead!!! The best FFB is always the 1 that gives you the Feeling you can Push more but yet you can feel when to back off....

Boom!!! every 1 feels the Crash FFB!!! I tried to Hone in on the Subtle FFB Feel when adjusting the settings because if you can feel the car at the point that you first start losing Grip... That can be the Game Changer!!!

PCars does Not Have the Progerssive Cornering Feel... I was testing this 2 days ago PCars vs Assetto Corsa.... Pcars FFB Strength feels Very even and Smooth through out the entire turning range...

Assetto Corsa the wheel starts off light at the center of the wheel but the more you turn/ the Faster your Going the Harder the wheel gets to turn.

morpwr
20-02-2016, 19:45
Not sure but I don't think many of us have really played with arm angle much. I do know it makes a big difference on what you feel so that may be the issue as it definitely has an effect on wheel weight and where you feel the weight. That may be the difference that sms left that up to us to figure out. Not like they would do that.:rolleyes:

gotdirt410sprintcar
20-02-2016, 23:15
Not sure but I don't think many of us have really played with arm angle much. I do know it makes a big difference on what you feel so that may be the issue as it definitely has an effect on wheel weight and where you feel the weight. That may be the difference that sms left that up to us to figure out. Not like they would do that.:rolleyes:

That's what it is for the most part, To high of arm and high in car FFB you get a wierd forces when turning and its constant . But for the most part 1000 too 2000 is good for most cars i think lower you feel the front more .

driveclub007
21-02-2016, 04:51
I think the dead zones play a big part of the overall tire force, I have a T300 and have put a time down of 106.032 at Watkins glen short in a BMW3 GT all I change was the final drive

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 08:12
The Lap Times are always going to be reasonably Close... its all about consistent lap times ...If you can be .125 a corner in 4 corner thats a 1/2 second lead!!! The best FFB is always the 1 that gives you the Feeling you can Push more but yet you can feel when to back off....

Boom!!! every 1 feels the Crash FFB!!! I tried to Hone in on the Subtle FFB Feel when adjusting the settings because if you can feel the car at the point that you first start losing Grip... That can be the Game Changer!!!

PCars does Not Have the Progerssive Cornering Feel... I was testing this 2 days ago PCars vs Assetto Corsa.... Pcars FFB Strength feels Very even and Smooth through out the entire turning range...

Assetto Corsa the wheel starts off light at the center of the wheel but the more you turn/ the Faster your Going the Harder the wheel gets to turn.

While everybody is getting faster and faster here...:D I connected with Ermo (at racedepartment.com) who had access to AJ and Casey Ringley, and they answered a question to me that i was very interested in:

Is Mz only tire force at patch or Mz "after" suspension geometry? This is in so far relevant, because without a knowing it you can't know for sure how caster, camber, toe and arm angle connect with your FFB settings.

Ermo/AJ/Ringley: "But the quick answer to that is the Mz component wrt FFB is just the tire Mz, before the suspension geometry. So, yes, just what you might call the pneumatic trail part."

It's really interesting to read the whole post, because i learned something about Fx as well that i wasn't aware of at all...

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/#post-2182158

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 08:42
So I finally took the time to try to adapt Grimey's setting into my T300, and also test/compare with my previous settings and with morpwr.

Watkins Glen Short, RUF-GT3, only change to fuel amount as to Grimey's vid (24l) and using ABS as the only assist.
(...)
TBH, lap times are not changing drastically. I guess I will never crack below 1:17 anyway...
I had to change the overall FFB, DDR and Scoop values from Grimey's setup to the T300. His setup not only gave me the best lap, but also Theoretical Best, just very short to brake the damn 1.17 barrier. But apart of lap times, I fell I'm more constant and have better ability to save the car when something goes wrong. With his and morpwr setup, I can feel the paint at the start/finish line.

Link to the settings: http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-1/162

But one thing I don't really get is the high-speed corner. None of the 3 setups gives me a proper "feel" of sliding/understeer, and I have the impression my guide might come 10% from the wheel, but the rest is visual+audio. I'm not even sure right now what I should feel in this condition... :grief:

PureMalt77...that is "TESTING"!:applouse:

Do you mean the long right hand sweeper after the "bus stop" when you say "high speed corner" I fully agree that is the ultimate test-curve for oversteer and slip angle. In this curve you also can feel very well the difference between higher and lower RAB values.

I tested morpwr's and BigDad's settings intensively. The both work very well. The biggest difference is their different approach with RAB (morpwr 0.02, BigDad 0.1). Beside that they are both based with their in-cars settings on JS tweakers, also their global FFB is based on JS (except morprw's low RAB). (Please correct me if i overlooked something.)

And as always: After all that testing, i lost my own "reference". I'm always attempted to go with Grimey's "heavy duty" setting (everything feels different with his setting), while my laziness lets me tend to lighter settings with low RAB and a lighter wheel in general. Though the way i start a turn in the very beginning i'm more precise with a heavier wheel, and at apex i feel more in control with higher RAB (around 0.1).

P.S.: I didn't have the feeling that patch 9.0 changed anything with FFB.

P.S.2: vrhive works very well for me. I think it's a great tool. I love the live delta display! makes chasing lap-times much more fun! May be Grimey records, exports and shares one of his 1.06.xxx sessions with us... But i guess it won't help to crack the 1.07.... ;-)

spacepadrille
21-02-2016, 09:00
I did a lot of testing also among the main different settings. They are all excellent ! My personal feeling preference goes to morpwr's one, thus the lap times are pretty the same. With Grimey's settings I'm not convinced by the brake feel, with morpwr's one it's a little bit light while cornering.

I took the morpwr's way with JS's Classic and adapted it to my feeling. I'm really very happy with the result. The differences with morpwr's settings are : FFB 69, DeadZone 0.03, DR 0.013, RAB 0.05, SK 0.78, SR 0.22. I strangely noticed a big difference of grip in speed corners by simply raising SK from 0.77 to 0.78...

In Car as JS classic, except the smoothing. Some tracks need smoothing (Fx 20 & Mz 10) like Willow Springs, some needs only Fx 10 Mz 0 like Watkins Glen, and some Fx 20 and Mz 0 like Zuhai (all that with GT3 class).

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 09:27
I did a lot of testing also among the main different settings. They are all excellent ! My personal feeling preference goes to morpwr's one, thus the lap times are pretty the same. With Grimey's settings I'm not convinced by the brake feel, with morpwr's one it's a little bit light while cornering.

I took the morpwr's way with JS's Classic and adapted it to my feeling. I'm really very happy with the result. The differences with morpwr's settings are : FFB 69, DeadZone 0.03, DR 0.013, RAB 0.05, SK 0.78, SR 0.22. I strangely noticed a big difference of grip in speed corners by simply raising SK from 0.77 to 0.78...

In Car as JS classic, except the smoothing. Some tracks need smoothing (Fx 20 & Mz 10) like Willow Springs, some needs only Fx 10 Mz 0 like Watkins Glen, and some Fx 20 and Mz 0 like Zuhai (all that with GT3 class).

Interesting! I did a pretty similar thing. I also used morpwr's setting and set RAB to .06. Then i was looking for more wheel weight, so i just raised master spindle scale and SoP Scale to 44. Of course by doing so i "overdrive" the signal and RAC compresses it, so i loose definition in the higher forces. But this way i got a heavier wheel in total. You may call it a compromise between JS purer approach with a lively "multidimensional"feel (also with the breaking feeling) and Grimey's handwriting. How to describe Grimey's? May be like this: "Who cares for braking?, nobody brakes after apex, and who brakes before apex such abruptly in a way you feel it with steering ruined his laptime anyway, so let's forget about Fx... and its useless chatter. Let's focus on grip and slip angle... While you're on perfect slip angle your tires produce constantly a lot of torque to the wheel, so let us feel that torque... with as much steering power as possible." As a matter of fact what i find so interesting with his setting is that he actually saturates the wheel a lot, but then he uses RAG and RAC in a way to "break" the saturation. You can clearly see that with his graph. So as a result, instead of loosing details in the saturation (which he does in the first stage) he gets them back with RAG And RAC, which is a kind of inverse alert-system when you loose the best slip angle..., while having a very heavy wheel, that couldn't be achieved any other way. Nobody else utilizes the FFB settings like him. JS based settings use the compressing effect of RAG/RAB/RAC as well, but by far not as strong as Grimey does. To cut it short: I couldn't make my mind up yet, if a compromise between the two basic approaches feel good for me, or not.

Jack Spade
21-02-2016, 10:29
I did a lot of testing also among the main different settings. They are all excellent ! My personal feeling preference goes to morpwr's one, thus the lap times are pretty the same. With Grimey's settings I'm not convinced by the brake feel, with morpwr's one it's a little bit light while cornering.

I took the morpwr's way with JS's Classic and adapted it to my feeling. I'm really very happy with the result. The differences with morpwr's settings are : FFB 69, DeadZone 0.03, DR 0.013, RAB 0.05, SK 0.78, SR 0.22. I strangely noticed a big difference of grip in speed corners by simply raising SK from 0.77 to 0.78...

In Car as JS classic, except the smoothing. Some tracks need smoothing (Fx 20 & Mz 10) like Willow Springs, some needs only Fx 10 Mz 0 like Watkins Glen, and some Fx 20 and Mz 0 like Zuhai (all that with GT3 class).

I use Fx and Mz Low Pass (smoothing) as a precaution on all cars due to a "grinding" or spin-off force, actually required just on several cars affected by the issue.
If someone wants to work out the ones in question among 120 cars let me know the result:)

PureMalt77
21-02-2016, 11:20
PureMalt77...that is "TESTING"!:applouse:

Do you mean the long right hand sweeper after the "bus stop" when you say "high speed corner" I fully agree that is the ultimate test-curve for oversteer and slip angle. In this curve you also can feel very well the difference between higher and lower RAB values.

I tested morpwr's and BigDad's settings intensively. The both work very well. The biggest difference is their different approach with RAB (morpwr 0.02, BigDad 0.1). Beside that they are both based with their in-cars settings on JS tweakers, also their global FFB is based on JS (except morprw's low RAB). (Please correct me if i overlooked something.)

And as always: After all that testing, i lost my own "reference". I'm always attempted to go with Grimey's "heavy duty" setting (everything feels different with his setting), while my laziness lets me tend to lighter settings with low RAB and a lighter wheel in general. Though the way i start a turn in the very beginning i'm more precise with a heavier wheel, and at apex i feel more in control with higher RAB (around 0.1).

P.S.: I didn't have the feeling that patch 9.0 changed anything with FFB.

P.S.2: vrhive works very well for me. I think it's a great tool. I love the live delta display! makes chasing lap-times much more fun! May be Grimey records, exports and shares one of his 1.06.xxx sessions with us... But i guess it won't help to crack the 1.07.... ;-)

Yes, you can call the testing! I was so KO after all of it, that wrote 1.17 instead of 1.07 :stupid:

Never noticed any "Bus Stop", but yes, is the long right-hand corner after the chicane followed by the long straight... I "hear" the tires slip, see the front of the car getting into understeer, but none of the the 3 settings I tested give me a proper feel, if any, I would say is Grimey's, where the wheel gets some kind of "knocks"... But after running several laps, I see is the corner that gives me the most "inconsistence".

One thing I can probably say for sure: i was always against using SoP, gives something unnatural, but with Grimey's settings it sort of match quite good. I have a much better reaction to understand and recover the car in a spinning situation.

Back to lap times, I did a comparison to his and mine laps, and in fact I know where I'm failing: the last 2 corners. He manages the transfer the weight and point the car in a good direction, still hitting the apex in the good point and having traction. The last 2 corners is taking me the .2 away.

vrhive: yes, but I'm a proud Mac user! Need to install a Windows VM to run this thing one day... :p

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 13:14
Yes, you can call the testing! I was so KO after all of it, that wrote 1.17 instead of 1.07 :stupid:

Never noticed any "Bus Stop", but yes, is the long right-hand corner after the chicane followed by the long straight... I "hear" the tires slip, see the front of the car getting into understeer, but none of the the 3 settings I tested give me a proper feel, if any, I would say is Grimey's, where the wheel gets some kind of "knocks"... But after running several laps, I see is the corner that gives me the most "inconsistence".

One thing I can probably say for sure: i was always against using SoP, gives something unnatural, but with Grimey's settings it sort of match quite good. I have a much better reaction to understand and recover the car in a spinning situation.

Back to lap times, I did a comparison to his and mine laps, and in fact I know where I'm failing: the last 2 corners. He manages the transfer the weight and point the car in a good direction, still hitting the apex in the good point and having traction. The last 2 corners is taking me the .2 away.

vrhive: yes, but I'm a proud Mac user! Need to install a Windows VM to run this thing one day... :p


:D yes, it's the chicane somebody started to call "bus stop". i see it exactly the same: the long "sweeper" teaches me about my inconsistent feeling with all the different settings - i simply can't find a consistent line. Sometimes i leave it (when i hit the curbs at the end of that long stretched curve) with 186 km/h, sometimes with 194 km/h. Its more luck than precise steering, and i blame the FFB that i can't properly read... And of course the last two corners... they hinder you to crack the 1.07.000 and me to crack the 1.08.000. It's wicked...

vrhive: me mac too. used bootcamp - perfect. (tried parallels and an other virtualization... gave up on them, too complicated, never worked well for me.)

morpwr
21-02-2016, 13:29
Interesting! I did a pretty similar thing. I also used morpwr's setting and set RAB to .06. Then i was looking for more wheel weight, so i just raised master spindle scale and SoP Scale to 44. Of course by doing so i "overdrive" the signal and RAC compresses it, so i loose definition in the higher forces. But this way i got a heavier wheel in total. You may call it a compromise between JS purer approach with a lively "multidimensional"feel (also with the breaking feeling) and Grimey's handwriting. How to describe Grimey's? May be like this: "Who cares for braking?, nobody brakes after apex, and who brakes before apex such abruptly in a way you feel it with steering ruined his laptime anyway, so let's forget about Fx... and its useless chatter. Let's focus on grip and slip angle... While you're on perfect slip angle your tires produce constantly a lot of torque to the wheel, so let us feel that torque... with as much steering power as possible." As a matter of fact what i find so interesting with his setting is that he actually saturates the wheel a lot, but then he uses RAG and RAC in a way to "break" the saturation. You can clearly see that with his graph. So as a result, instead of loosing details in the saturation (which he does in the first stage) he gets them back with RAG And RAC, which is a kind of inverse alert-system when you loose the best slip angle..., while having a very heavy wheel, that couldn't be achieved any other way. Nobody else utilizes the FFB settings like him. JS based settings use the compressing effect of RAG/RAB/RAC as well, but by far not as strong as Grimey does. To cut it short: I couldn't make my mind up yet, if a compromise between the two basic approaches feel good for me, or not.

Well like most of us it was more testing this weekend. I went back and retried grimeys settings and I can see why some like them. They are good and I see why they work well being mz biased with some of the forces low like that. But I went back to mine and played with arm angle some. Finally broke into the 107s and turned a 107.87 if I remember right. Yes its those last 2 corners puremalt.:D Part of the reason I think grimeys work well is the fact it sort of covers up arm angle being off some. Good part is at this point no matter what you feel is right you have a good starting point and cant go wrong with any of them. It just comes down to personal preference.

morpwr
21-02-2016, 13:37
:D yes, it's the chicane somebody started to call "bus stop". i see it exactly the same: the long "sweeper" teaches me about my inconsistent feeling with all the different settings - i simply can't find a consistent line. Sometimes i leave it (when i hit the curbs at the end of that long stretched curve) with 186 km/h, sometimes with 194 km/h. Its more luck than precise steering, and i blame the FFB that i can't properly read... And of course the last two corners... they hinder you to crack the 1.07.000 and me to crack the 1.08.000. It's wicked...

vrhive: me mac too. used bootcamp - perfect. (tried parallels and an other virtualization... gave up on them, too complicated, never worked well for me.)

The last two corners make you think you can turn way later than you can to be fast thru them. Its taken me a while to finally get them right now I just need to do it consistently.

PureMalt77
21-02-2016, 14:33
Not sure but I don't think many of us have really played with arm angle much. I do know it makes a big difference on what you feel so that may be the issue as it definitely has an effect on wheel weight and where you feel the weight. That may be the difference that sms left that up to us to figure out. Not like they would do that.:rolleyes:

Hey morpwr, you are getting famous! http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45209-All-ps4-steering-wheel-pilots-should-read-Especially-jack-spade-and-Morpwr

JS too, but he's already famous :D

Haiden
21-02-2016, 14:57
Not sure but I don't think many of us have really played with arm angle much. I do know it makes a big difference on what you feel so that may be the issue as it definitely has an effect on wheel weight and where you feel the weight. That may be the difference that sms left that up to us to figure out. Not like they would do that.:rolleyes:

You can't use extremes when testing this one. You have to test the scale along at least four points to get an idea of the range you need to test/zero in on.



PCars does Not Have the Progerssive Cornering Feel... I was testing this 2 days ago PCars vs Assetto Corsa.... Pcars FFB Strength feels Very even and Smooth through out the entire turning range...

Assetto Corsa the wheel starts off light at the center of the wheel but the more you turn/ the Faster your Going the Harder the wheel gets to turn.

Actually, it does. I think we may have been tuning this out. I didn't feel it before, but I feel it now with Jack's globals. It's not quite as progressive as it is in other games, like F1 2015, but since adapting his globals I definitely feel a more dynamic, speed-related force in corners, especially on turn-in. It gains a little as I turn the wheel, and then eases as I start straightening after the apex. The faster I go, the more force I feel on turn-in. But in hairpins and slow corners, the much less force in the wheel. While testing yesterday, I noticed something. Jack's FF/TF is 100/75. When I used that with his global base, cornering force is dynamic (low to high, depending on speed). But if I reverse the balance FF/TF=75/100, the cornering force loses the progressive feel entirely, and becomes constant. Also, surprisingly, the wheel gets much heavier when I reverse the balance. For some reason, with those globals FF/TF=110/75 is actually lighter on the wheel than 75/100.

Also, the difference in the progressive feel may be PCars' uncanned effects. The other games could be using a speed-related algorithm to create the more pronounced progressive feel.



And as always: After all that testing, i lost my own "reference".

P.S.: I didn't have the feeling that patch 9.0 changed anything with FFB.

If you haven't tried, it helps to keep a rating chart when testing. Basically, list all the things you want to feel, and then, with each setting option, rate those aspects from 1-5 (or light to heavy). That way, even if you forget how it actually felt, you can see which test options to discard, and which to compare.


The last two corners make you think you can turn way later than you can to be fast thru them. Its taken me a while to finally get them right now I just need to do it consistently.

Definitely! Especially for me, because I prefer open wheel, and in those cars, the braking point is so much closer to turn-in than it is in the GT classes. In the FA, if your gearing is right, you can pretty much just engine brake through the second to last turn.

morpwr
21-02-2016, 15:03
Its funny I never thought id be in the top 100 much less fast. lol Ive just always played because I enjoy it. Same goes for the wheel settings just trying to help like everyone on this forum. If someone uses them great if they like grimeys or jacks or bigdads that's ok too. Thats why this forum works as well as it does.:cool:

morpwr
21-02-2016, 15:11
You can't use extremes when testing this one. You have to test the scale along at least four points to get an idea of the range you need to test/zero in on.



Actually, it does. I didn't feel it before, but I feel it now with Jack's globals. It's not quite as progressive as it is in other games, like F1 2015, but since adapting his globals I definitely feel a more dynamic, speed-related force in corners, especially on turn-in. It gains a little as I turn the wheel, and then eases as I start straightening after the apex. The faster I go, the more force I feel on turn-in. But in hairpins and slow corners, the much less force in the wheel. While testing yesterday, I noticed something. Jack's FF/TF is 100/75. When I used that with his global base, cornering force is dynamic (low to high, depending on speed). But if I reverse the balance FF/TF=75/100, the cornering force loses the progressive feel entirely, and becomes constant. Also, surprisingly, the wheel gets much heavier when I reverse the balance. For some reason, with those globals FF/TF=110/75 is actually lighter on the wheel than 75/100.



If you haven't tried, it helps to keep a rating chart when testing. Basically, list all the things you want to feel, and then, with each setting option, rate those aspects from 1-5 (or light to heavy). That way, even if you forget how it actually felt, you can see which test options to discard, and which to compare.



Definitely! Especially for me, because I prefer open wheel, and in those cars, the braking point is so much closer to turn-in than it is in the GT classes. In the FA, if your gearing is right, you can pretty much just engine brake through the second to last turn.

Thats what I did last night went by 200s until I got a good feel without the funny spot once youre turned into a corner. It seems too if you get it set right you get a more linear turn in.

spacepadrille
21-02-2016, 15:12
I use Fx and Mz Low Pass (smoothing) as a precaution on all cars due to a "grinding" or spin-off force, actually required just on several cars affected by the issue.
If someone wants to work out the ones in question among 120 cars let me know the result:)

Some cars always needs Fx and Mz Low Pass, but often it's also track dependent. I understand the "precaution", but considering that only few cars/tracks needs such smoothing, maybe it's more pragmatic to put only Fx smooth 10 on the tweakers files, and only when needed (easy to know, grinding is easy to feel) to add manually the desired smooth effect.

I say that because there is no way to know is smoothing is needed if it is already there. And driving a car with low pass when it's not needed take away a lot of driving pleasure.

I always start without aditionnal smoothing (I let the Fx 10 default), and if I suspect grinding first I raise Fx smooth to 20, second I compare with Fx back to 10 and Mz smooth 10. Sometimes both are needed, sometimes only Fx or only Mz...

Haiden
21-02-2016, 15:23
Some cars always needs Fx and Mz Low Pass, but often it's also track dependent. I understand the "precaution", but considering that only few cars/tracks needs such smoothing, maybe it's more pragmatic to put only Fx smooth 10 on the tweakers files, and only when needed (easy to know, grinding is easy to feel) to add manually the desired smooth effect.

I say that because there is no way to know is smoothing is needed if it is already there. And driving a car with low pass when it's not needed take away a lot of driving pleasure.

I always start without aditionnal smoothing (I let the Fx 10 default), and if I suspect grinding first I raise Fx smooth to 20, second I compare with Fx back to 10 and Mz smooth 10. Sometimes both are needed, sometimes only Fx or only Mz...

I've been using Jack's settings with zero smoothing. Haven't found a car that I needed any yet, even on tracks like Watkins and the Nordschleife. I understand the precaution, though. Informed tuners are far more likely to realize they can turn it off, than the average gamer. If he sett the smoothing scales to zero, the average gamer would just use the tune as-is, and then complain if they felt the grinding. :)

spacepadrille
21-02-2016, 15:29
I've been using Jack's settings with zero smoothing. Haven't found a car that I needed any yet, even on tracks like Watkins and the Nordschleife. I understand the precaution, though. Informed tuners are far more likely to realize they can turn it off, than the average gamer. If he sett the smoothing scales to zero, the average gamer would just use the tune as-is, and then complain if they felt the grinding. :)

You're right.... What i found is that strangely smoothing is needed on some very "flat" tracks, and not on Brands Hatch or Watkins Glen... Maybe because the road noise of this rugged tracks cover the small grinding ? My FFB is not clipping but is set very close to clipping. Maybe it's why sometimes I need those smoothing you don't need ?

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 15:36
You can't use extremes when testing this one. You have to test the scale along at least four points to get an idea of the range you need to test/zero in on.



Actually, it does. I think we may have been tuning this out. I didn't feel it before, but I feel it now with Jack's globals. It's not quite as progressive as it is in other games, like F1 2015, but since adapting his globals I definitely feel a more dynamic, speed-related force in corners, especially on turn-in. It gains a little as I turn the wheel, and then eases as I start straightening after the apex. The faster I go, the more force I feel on turn-in. But in hairpins and slow corners, the much less force in the wheel. While testing yesterday, I noticed something. Jack's FF/TF is 100/75. When I used that with his global base, cornering force is dynamic (low to high, depending on speed). But if I reverse the balance FF/TF=75/100, the cornering force loses the progressive feel entirely, and becomes constant. Also, surprisingly, the wheel gets much heavier when I reverse the balance. For some reason, with those globals FF/TF=110/75 is actually lighter on the wheel than 75/100.

Also, the difference in the progressive feel may be PCars' uncanned effects. The other games could be using a speed-related algorithm to create the more pronounced progressive feel.



If you haven't tried, it helps to keep a rating chart when testing. Basically, list all the things you want to feel, and then, with each setting option, rate those aspects from 1-5 (or light to heavy). That way, even if you forget how it actually felt, you can see which test options to discard, and which to compare.



Definitely! Especially for me, because I prefer open wheel, and in those cars, the braking point is so much closer to turn-in than it is in the GT classes. In the FA, if your gearing is right, you can pretty much just engine brake through the second to last turn.


FF/TF = 100/75 is more dynamic because with TF 75 the signal of course gets less compressed by RAC. With FF/TF = 75/100 the signal is 25% higher and gets more soft-limited/compressed by RAC, and due to the 25% increase the wheel gets heavier in general. The exchange of the values must change characteristic of FFB, since RAG is a non linear operator: (TF * RAC * FF) ≠ (FF * RAC * TF).

The "last two corner" problem at Watkins Glen Short: Do you & morpwr mean i have to turn in earlier or later than what you would do intuitively. So earlier or later breaking points?

spacepadrille
21-02-2016, 15:38
The "last two corner" problem at Watkins Glen Short: Do you & morpwr mean i have to turn in earlier or later than what you would do intuitively. So earlier or later breaking points?

I think they mean earlier.. :-)

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 15:41
I've been using Jack's settings with zero smoothing. Haven't found a car that I needed any yet, even on tracks like Watkins and the Nordschleife. I understand the precaution, though. Informed tuners are far more likely to realize they can turn it off, than the average gamer. If he sett the smoothing scales to zero, the average gamer would just use the tune as-is, and then complain if they felt the grinding. :)

When i remember right the historical Lotus Cosworth 49 DLC had a terrible Fx grinding on Rouen. Needed FX smoothing of >50. May be with patch 8.0 they corrected it.

morpwr
21-02-2016, 15:52
When i remember right the historical Lotus Cosworth 49 DLC had a terrible Fx grinding on Rouen. Needed FX smoothing of >50. May be with patch 8.0 they corrected it.

I think the reason is the rock hard bias ply tires with that blocky tread pattern which would sort of make sense. So if modeled correctly I would understand.

morpwr
21-02-2016, 15:56
FF/TF = 100/75 is more dynamic because with TF 75 the signal of course gets less compressed by RAC. With FF/TF = 75/100 the signal is 25% higher and gets more soft-limited/compressed by RAC, and due to the 25% increase the wheel gets heavier in general. The exchange of the values must change characteristic of FFB, since RAG is a non linear operator: (TF * RAC * FF) ≠ (FF * RAC * TF).

The "last two corner" problem at Watkins Glen Short: Do you & morpwr mean i have to turn in earlier or later than what you would do intuitively. So earlier or later breaking points?

Brake earlier and turn in way earlier than you would think it. You almost don't need to brake as much if you get the corner right. Its really hard to get yourself to do it correctly but when you do its 1.07s.:D

Jack Spade
21-02-2016, 16:00
Actually, it does. I think we may have been tuning this out. I didn't feel it before, but I feel it now with Jack's globals. It's not quite as progressive as it is in other games, like F1 2015, but since adapting his globals I definitely feel a more dynamic, speed-related force in corners, especially on turn-in. It gains a little as I turn the wheel, and then eases as I start straightening after the apex. The faster I go, the more force I feel on turn-in. But in hairpins and slow corners, the much less force in the wheel. While testing yesterday, I noticed something. Jack's FF/TF is 100/75. When I used that with his global base, cornering force is dynamic (low to high, depending on speed). But if I reverse the balance FF/TF=75/100, the cornering force loses the progressive feel entirely, and becomes constant. Also, surprisingly, the wheel gets much heavier when I reverse the balance. For some reason, with those globals FF/TF=110/75 is actually lighter on the wheel than 75/100.


Exactly... TF 75 sets the processing level relatively low so the signal doesnīt saturate and dynamic is maintained. FFB master is post all processing so thereīs
nothing calculated. Imagine the FFB master as a secondary passive volume control build in the speakers of your stereo at home. If you lower the volume here
you would have to increase the volume control on the stereo amp in order to maintain the same loudness, a weak amp probably distorts while the speakers
seem bored.

Haiden
21-02-2016, 16:12
FF/TF = 100/75 is more dynamic because with TF 75 the signal of course gets less compressed by RAC. With FF/TF = 75/100 the signal is 25% higher and gets more soft-limited/compressed by RAC, and due to the 25% increase the wheel gets heavier in general. The exchange of the values must change characteristic of FFB, since RAG is a non linear operator: (TF * RAC * FF) ≠ (FF * RAC * TF).

Yes. In fact, this is a point I tried to make a long time ago in other discussions regarding FF/TF balance, but didn't have the words to describe it properly. It's like Jack said above. Another analogy would be color saturation. Pushing too much TF is like looking at a photo where the color saturation is set too high. Not only are the colors overly vibrant, but that vibrancy also burns out some of the detail in the image.


Brake earlier and turn in way earlier than you would think it. You almost don't need to brake as much if you get the corner right. Its really hard to get yourself to do it correctly but when you do its 1.07s.:D

^^This. It's a classic example of slow in, fast out. If you brake a little earlier, you can actually start modulating the throttle and getting back on the power before you even hit the apex. Brake too late, you'll miss the apex, go wide, and won't get back on the throttle until you resettle the car. Some corners require more discipline than others--ignoring your natural instincts--and this is definitely one of them. :) I think the difficulty is, you want to look to the apex, but with that corner, by the time you can actually see the apex, you've already passed the braking point.

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 16:16
So I finally took the time to try to adapt Grimey's setting into my T300, and also test/compare with my previous settings and with morpwr.

Watkins Glen Short, RUF-GT3, only change to fuel amount as to Grimey's vid (24l) and using ABS as the only assist.

(...)

TBH, lap times are not changing drastically. I guess I will never crack below 1:07 anyway...
I had to change the overall FFB, DDR and Scoop values from Grimey's setup to the T300. His setup not only gave me the best lap, but also Theoretical Best, just very short to brake the damn 1.07 barrier. But apart of lap times, I fell I'm more constant and have better ability to save the car when something goes wrong. With his and morpwr setup, I can feel the paint at the start/finish line.

I don't know if Grimey refered to that link already...? Let me do it ;-) Here is his 1.06.xxx run video... Enjoy!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU

Haiden
21-02-2016, 16:28
Exactly... TF 75 sets the processing level relatively low so the signal doesnīt saturate and dynamic is maintained. FFB master is post all processing so thereīs
nothing calculated. Imagine the FFB master as a secondary passive volume control build in the speakers of your stereo at home. If you lower the volume here
you would have to increase the volume control on the stereo amp in order to maintain the same loudness, a weak amp probably distorts while the speakers
seem bored.

Last night, I ran the Nordschleife with your FA in-car settings, and a slightly modified version of your globals and shaved a whole 20 seconds off my previous best lap. Prior to that, I was always within at least 5 seconds from my best lap time. First hot lap with these new setttings, -20 seconds. I had to check my notes to make sure I was remembering my best time correctly. :)

PureMalt77
21-02-2016, 17:01
Yes. In fact, this is a point I tried to make a long time ago in other discussions regarding FF/TF balance, but didn't have the words to describe it properly. It's like Jack said above. Another analogy would be color saturation. Pushing too much TF is like looking at a photo where the color saturation is set too high. Not only are the colors overly vibrant, but that vibrancy also burns out some of the detail in the image.

^^This. It's a classic example of slow in, fast out. If you brake a little earlier, you can actually start modulating the throttle and getting back on the power before you even hit the apex. Brake too late, you'll miss the apex, go wide, and won't get back on the throttle until you resettle the car. Some corners require more discipline than others--ignoring your natural instincts--and this is definitely one of them. :) I think the difficulty is, you want to look to the apex, but with that corner, by the time you can actually see the apex, you've already passed the braking point.

I remember we had long discussions about that topic in an earlier thread. I was a big supporter of FFB=100/TF=75 but since retesting the whole lot here I kind of lost it. Now I see these numbers from Bunga412 which look promising to try again in my poor T300...

My driving style is complete based on corner exit, corner entry only for "defending"... but this specific corner is not trivial, I can get it right, but 1 out of 10 laps...


I don't know if Grimey refered to that link already...? Let me do it ;-) Here is his 1.06.xxx run video... Enjoy!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU

Yes, seen it, was my base to test the whole FFB again. He's on 1:06.8xx, I'm not that far, but need a bit more to crack it...

Haiden
21-02-2016, 17:56
I remember we had long discussions about that topic in an earlier thread. I was a big supporter of FFB=100/TF=75 but since retesting the whole lot here I kind of lost it. Now I see these numbers from Bunga412 which look promising to try again in my poor T300...

I was using a FF/TF balance of 100/65 with my T300, and didn't have any problems. It was the best tune I ever had with that wheel, and others were using it with success, as well. When I got my CSW-v2, I started retuning and went down the TF=100 path. I think having a new wheel with a different feel and higher fidelity made it easy for me to lose my frame of reference. And, once you get used to something, the old settings will seem foreign/wrong. But now, after almost two weeks of using Jack's settings and constantly switching back to my old setting and balance to keep my reference, I see the difference--less noise, better range, and a higher degree of fidelity.

morpwr
21-02-2016, 18:21
I don't know if Grimey refered to that link already...? Let me do it ;-) Here is his 1.06.xxx run video... Enjoy!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goizjcnj4oU

I might have watched that once or twice.;)

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 19:02
I was using a FF/TF balance of 100/65 with my T300, and didn't have any problems. It was the best tune I ever had with that wheel, and others were using it with success, as well. When I got my CSW-v2, I started retuning and went down the TF=100 path. I think having a new wheel with a different feel and higher fidelity made it easy for me to lose my frame of reference. And, once you get used to something, the old settings will seem foreign/wrong. But now, after almost two weeks of using Jack's settings and constantly switching back to my old setting and balance to keep my reference, I see the difference--less noise, better range, and a higher degree of fidelity.

:confused: which setting gives you "less noise, better range, and a higher degree of fidelity"?

Krus Control
21-02-2016, 19:14
Hey guys, I've developed some settings that are worth checking out. They produce a vivid and proper feel in every car with the default per car setup (though there are small changes that I recommend). I've achieved a superior feel to any other set of settings I've tried on the Thrustmaster TX. The only signal processing in my settings are relative adjust and scoop. These can easily be suited to most wheels with only small adjustments.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?40260-Great-Universal-FFB-Settings-All-Cars-Wheels

Haiden
21-02-2016, 19:30
:confused: which setting gives you "less noise, better range, and a higher degree of fidelity"?

I'm using Jack's settings right now. I think the only change I've made is no deadzone removal and a slight higher RAC (0.88). Although, I think I'm going back to RAC=0.85. I'm using his in-car settings, too. I just raise the Master a bit in most cars, anywhere from 4 to 10 increments. Other than that I don't really see the need to change anything else. I wish I started with them when I got my CSW-v2. They can be adapted to other wheels. I'm just not sure how. One of the reasons I didn't try them right away was because I had tried them with my T300, but just couldn't get them to feel right. But I didn't know as much as I do now, so it might have just been my own lack of knowledge that was making it difficult.

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 20:01
I'm using Jack's settings right now. I think the only change I've made is no deadzone removal and a slight higher RAC (0.88). Although, I think I'm going back to RAC=0.85. I'm using his in-car settings, too. I just raise the Master a bit in most cars, anywhere from 4 to 10 increments. Other than that I don't really see the need to change anything else. I wish I started with them when I got my CSW-v2. They can be adapted to other wheels. I'm just not sure how. One of the reasons I didn't try them right away was because I had tried them with my T300, but just couldn't get them to feel right. But I didn't know as much as I do now, so it might have just been my own lack of knowledge that was making it difficult.

so you use TF 75. but still i don't get it. what was your setting before which created the "chatter"?. sorry for being so "German" ;-)
just curious.

Haiden
21-02-2016, 20:03
Exactly... TF 75 sets the processing level relatively low so the signal doesnīt saturate and dynamic is maintained. FFB master is post all processing so thereīs
nothing calculated. Imagine the FFB master as a secondary passive volume control build in the speakers of your stereo at home. If you lower the volume here
you would have to increase the volume control on the stereo amp in order to maintain the same loudness, a weak amp probably distorts while the speakers
seem bored.

Jack. You' should your @wheel FF is 100. You're on PC. Are you using any FF attenuation in the PC driver control panel?

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 20:23
Hey guys, I've developed some settings that are worth checking out. They produce a vivid and proper feel in every car with the default per car setup (though there are small changes that I recommend). I've achieved a superior feel to any other set of settings I've tried on the Thrustmaster TX. The only signal processing in my settings are relative adjust and scoop. These can easily be suited to most wheels with only small adjustments.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?40260-Great-Universal-FFB-Settings-All-Cars-Wheels

That's by far (!!) the most exotic setting that i could imagine. I wished i could test it immediately. I really wonder, how that will feel... I'll come to back to it asap.

Haiden
21-02-2016, 20:27
so you use TF 75. but still i don't get it. what was your setting before which created the "chatter"?. sorry for being so "German"�� just curious.

FF/TF=100/75 is actually giving me a lighter wheel with more fidelity than 75/100. I think quite a few things can/were causing the chatter/noise:

1. Scoop Settings too low, which basically overloads the low range with feedback that should be in the high range. Which I think is also one of the reasons, I wasn't feeling the progressive/dynamic cornering force.

2. In-Car FFB scale(s) set too high. Subtle forces can become amplified, given too much presence in the feedback dynamic.

3. Low force saturation in the wheel, which results in a rattling kind of feel. This can happen when FF is set to low. IMO, a properly saturated wheel will feel smoother with less chatter. If you're used to the chatter/noise, or like the perceived feeling of texture it brings to the wheel, then a properly saturated wheel will probably feel less dynamic to you at first. But if you give it time, and keep going back and forth between the two settings, you will see that the dynamic range is still there. You still feel all the important stuff. It just feels bland, because the noise is gone. It's like listening to the stereo when the A/C is blowing. When the A/C shuts off, you totally notice it's absence, but the same music suddenly sounds better without any adjustments being made. The problem with FFB is that the noise feels like detail/texture, but it's not. It's just useless chatter.

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 20:49
FF/TF=100/75 is actually giving me a lighter wheel with more fidelity than 75/100. I think quite a few things can/were causing the chatter/noise:

1. Scoop Settings too low, which basically overloads the low range with feedback that should be in the high range. Which I think is also one of the reasons, I wasn't feeling the progressive/dynamic cornering force.

2. In-Car FFB scale(s) set too high. Subtle forces can become amplified, given too much presence in the feedback dynamic.

3. Low force saturation in the wheel, which results in a rattling kind of feel. This can happen when FF is set to low. IMO, a properly saturated wheel will feel smoother with less chatter. If you're used to the chatter/noise, or like the perceived feeling of texture it brings to the wheel, then a properly saturated wheel will probably feel less dynamic to you at first. But if you give it time, and keep going back and forth between the two settings, you will see that the dynamic range is still there. You still feel all the important stuff. It just feels bland, because the noise is gone. It's like listening to the stereo when the A/C is blowing. When the A/C shuts off, you totally notice it's absence, but the same music suddenly sounds better without any adjustments being made. The problem with FFB is that the noise feels like detail/texture, but it's not. It's just useless chatter.

Hhm, i can't say anything to 1.). With 2.) i have no valid test with it, but i agree in general. 3.) it reminds me a bit of the "Signal to Noise" question/discussion. Hard to say imo if noise is introduced with low FF.

My very personal view on chatter/noise is, that mainly the RAG module might be responsible for it. (beside phase issues). RAG is a coin with a flip-side: I tested without it, and yes forces became more pure and logical to me, though when i switch it on it's like a "magnifier"... was it morpwr who said that, or poirqc? therefore a kind of "FFB on speed"... ;-)

in so far i'm twisted :D

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 20:51
I might have watched that once or twice.;)

haha, once or twice... three, four, many... times:D

GrimeyDog
21-02-2016, 20:54
That's by far (!!) the most exotic setting that i could imagine. I wished i could test it immediately. I really wonder, how that will feel... I'll come to back to it asap.

very radical set up indeed!!! i cant wait to read your review!!!

Krus Control
21-02-2016, 21:01
Just look at the telemetry with my setup. It doesn't lie. Smooth through and through. Smooth diagonal lines for weight transfers and no clipping, spiking, or any strange behavior whatsoever. Full use of dynamic range. Good feel at low-high speed, tight or drawn out corners, every car. I know they're mine, but these are really great settings that work wonders on the TX.

Haiden
21-02-2016, 21:06
Hhm, i can't say anything to 1.). With 2.) i have no valid test with it, but i agree in general. 3.) it reminds me a bit of the "Signal to Noise" question/discussion. Hard to say imo if noise is introduced with low FF.

My very personal view on chatter/noise is, that mainly the RAG module might be responsible for it. (beside phase issues). RAG is a coin with a flip-side: I tested without it, and yes forces became more pure and logical to me, though when i switch it on it's like a "magnifier"... was it morpwr who said that, or poirqc? therefore a kind of "FFB on speed"... ;-)

in so far i'm twisted :D

Yeah...I admit, it's all personal theory. With #3 I'm talking more about the rattling I get in the wheel. It's all noise/chatter to me, because it interferes with the my ability to feel the forces I need/want to feel. But that low force rattle is different from the in-car FFB induced noise.

#1 is more of a crowding effect, and I kind of said it backwards. The lower Knee is sending what would have been weaker forces into the higher range. Little things that would have been reduced and transmitted as weaker forces aren't, and are instead transmitted stronger than they should have been--noise.


very radical set up indeed!!! i cant wait to read your review!!!

Definitely! If you trail back through that thread, you can see some of the feedback from people who tried it.

tennenbaum
21-02-2016, 21:07
Just look at the telemetry with my setup. It doesn't lie. Smooth through and through. Smooth diagonal lines for weight transfers and no clipping, spiking, or any strange behavior whatsoever. Full use of dynamic range. Good feel at low-high speed, tight or drawn out corners, every car. I know they're mine, but these are really great settings that work wonders on the TX.

guys you're killing me :D:D
i must bring home some bacon - can't test 24/7... :D

Krus Control
21-02-2016, 21:07
Definitely! If you trail back through that thread, you can see some of the feedback from people who tried it.

Actually nobody has tried these settings yet. The feedback in the thread is actually from a whole different set of settings that I posted. I just updated these recently and the settings are very different and very much better. They weren't so great when that feedback was left.

GrimeyDog
21-02-2016, 21:21
Just look at the telemetry with my setup. It doesn't lie. Smooth through and through. Smooth diagonal lines for weight transfers and no clipping, spiking, or any strange behavior whatsoever. Full use of dynamic range. Good feel at low-high speed, tight or drawn out corners, every car. I know they're mine, but these are really great settings that work wonders on the TX.


Post a Video...

Haiden
21-02-2016, 21:24
Actually nobody has tried these settings yet. The feedback in the thread is actually from a whole different set of settings that I posted. I just updated these recently and the settings are very different and very much better. They weren't so great when that feedback was left.

Sorry. It's a bit confusing, since the post date is October of 2015, followed by five pages of comments. :)

Krus Control
21-02-2016, 21:32
Post a Video...

I just tried doing this but my framerate drops to about 15fps and stutters, so it really wouldn't even tell you much if I did. Sorry but it seems I can't do this for you.

SGETI
21-02-2016, 22:04
This has to be the BEST thread on the whole site!! Informative, and friendly. I have "missed a few days" and I return to a novel of useful information. I was able to read the rest of the threads on this site in under 15 minutes. This one took close to a hour. I must admit I had to reread many posts more than once (tennenbaum, pouric grimey )to name a few to even come close to understanding. I am a little surprised to see that some settings are using 100FFB / 75 TF. I thought this was put to bed for the T300, as 75 FFB / 100 TF was the recommended setting. Now I am of to go drive and test.

Boy, do I have a lot of testing to do.

Krus Control
21-02-2016, 22:36
I've had tire force work at a bunch of different places, very low to very high. It all depends where your other settings are. Balancing tire force with steering gain and master scale can produce a number of different good albiet slightly different arrangements. And after you take the relative adjust, soft clipping, per wheel movement, and even deadzone removal settings into account, you can make tire force work at almost any number. Just throwing that out there.

Haiden
21-02-2016, 22:51
I am a little surprised to see that some settings are using 100FFB / 75 TF. I thought this was put to bed for the T300, as 75 FFB / 100 TF was the recommended setting. Now I am of to go drive and test.

I'd say that's the recommended setting for the average player that's using the global defaults and not changing anything else. But it's far too simplistic a rule to be an absolute, considering how many of the other scales affect the final force output--RAG, RAC, SG, Scoop K&R, In-Car Master--not to mention the on wheel settings for Fanatec wheels. That's why Krus Control is able to set run FF/TF at 100/170 and not clip. In fact, as you may have read. If you take Jack's settings which use FF/TF=100/75 and reverse that, leaving all his other globals the same, the force at the wheel is way too heavy. The application of that general rule of thumb has caused a lot of needless debate.

GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 02:44
PureMalt77...that is "TESTING"!:applouse:

Do you mean the long right hand sweeper after the "bus stop" when you say "high speed corner" I fully agree that is the ultimate test-curve for oversteer and slip angle. In this curve you also can feel very well the difference between higher and lower RAB values.

I tested morpwr's and BigDad's settings intensively. The both work very well. The biggest difference is their different approach with RAB (morpwr 0.02, BigDad 0.1). Beside that they are both based with their in-cars settings on JS tweakers, also their global FFB is based on JS (except morprw's low RAB). (Please correct me if i overlooked something.)

And as always: After all that testing, i lost my own "reference". I'm always attempted to go with Grimey's "heavy duty" setting (everything feels different with his setting), while my laziness lets me tend to lighter settings with low RAB and a lighter wheel in general. Though the way i start a turn in the very beginning i'm more precise with a heavier wheel, and at apex i feel more in control with higher RAB (around 0.1).

P.S.: I didn't have the feeling that patch 9.0 changed anything with FFB.

P.S.2: vrhive works very well for me. I think it's a great tool. I love the live delta display! makes chasing lap-times much more fun! May be Grimey records, exports and shares one of his 1.06.xxx sessions with us... But i guess it won't help to crack the 1.07.... ;-)

Try this... set the RAC to 88 it really lightens up the wheel without Changing the Dynamics of the FFB... I've been testing Lower RAC and the tweek feels the same just Less powerful.

9.0 is spot on!!! i just finished a 30 Lap race at Laguna Seca and at the end of the race the wheel temp was 96*F...That's really Good.
for Me wheel temp management is a part of the tweek process...it lets me know that i have the GM FFB set at the right Level for my wheel...GM FFB set too high makes the wheel operate Hotter.

Jack Spade
22-02-2016, 06:18
Jack. You' should your @wheel FF is 100. You're on PC. Are you using any FF attenuation in the PC driver control panel?

FF on the wheel has a similar effect as the FFB master in game so I have it set at 100 which is default. It makes no sense to me to lower the
dynamic range on the wheel, also should basically be true for such a setting in wheel drivers, though Iīm not sure if they are all on the same
scale.

GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 10:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GQCZgCNw8&index=8&list=LLC8nygV2cxirmiTbS0_qHSA



Have any of you watched this entire Video??? There is Great information in this Video... It explains alot about the Tire Physics that go into Creating a tire Model for a Sim Racing Game... Pay close attention at the 30min mark where he talks about Divergence... Its Really Great information.... I Know tenenbaum and Poirqc will love this Video!!!

Edit: tenenbaum/ Poirq / Jack Spade I have a Special interest to know what you think about what is said at the 30min mark regarding Divergence.

P1ckN1cker2406
22-02-2016, 10:48
FF on the wheel has a similar effect as the FFB master in game so I have it set at 100 which is default. It makes no sense to me to lower the
dynamic range on the wheel, also should basically be true for such a setting in wheel drivers, though Iīm not sure if they are all on the same
scale.

Default Setting for the Thrustmaster TX in the Wheel Driver Control Panel on PC is 75%. And according to Thrustmaster this setting is the same as 100% with a CSW V2 and should not be set higher than 75%. Same for the Thrustmaster T300. And with a Thrustmaster T500RS FFB Master in Control Panel should be set to 60%.

morpwr
22-02-2016, 11:00
Default Setting for the Thrustmaster TX in the Wheel Driver Control Panel on PC is 75%. And according to Thrustmaster this setting is the same as 100% with a CSW V2 and should not be set higher than 75%. Same for the Thrustmaster T300. And with a Thrustmaster T500RS FFB Master in Control Panel should be set to 60%.

I think that was a specific answer to haidens question as they both have cswv2 wheels.

Haiden
22-02-2016, 11:22
FF on the wheel has a similar effect as the FFB master in game so I have it set at 100 which is default. It makes no sense to me to lower the
dynamic range on the wheel, also should basically be true for such a setting in wheel drivers, though Iīm not sure if they are all on the same
scale.

Thanks. That was my understanding, as well--that the @wheel is the same as the driver panel. I would have been surprised if you lowered it, because when I tried it at 75, the wheel was extremely light, and I had to raise the in-car Master to compensate. Doing so brought some weight back, but it didn't feel quite the same as just setting @wheel FF to 100 with the lower in-car Master.

PureMalt77
22-02-2016, 11:45
By now we all know that since consoles do not have the Control Panel, the final force comes from the Global FFB Master (aka Control Panel Master Gain Settings) - talking Thrustmaster here.
But I wonder what about the other settings? You have additionally Detailed Gain Settings (Constant, Periodic, Spring and Damper). I really wonder how much of those settings change the experience between PC vs Console.

GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 12:02
Thanks. That was my understanding, as well--that the @wheel is the same as the driver panel. I would have been surprised if you lowered it, because when I tried it at 75, the wheel was extremely light, and I had to raise the in-car Master to compensate. Doing so brought some weight back, but it didn't feel quite the same as just setting @wheel FF to 100 with the lower in-car Master.

The GM FFB is veryTweek dependent at this point... depending on which part of the FFB system you choose to get the FFB power the GM FFB has to be set accordingly to compensate.

in My case i choose to get the FFB power from the Relative/In Car FFB system and use the GM FFB as a Filler for at the wheel FFB strength only.... While others use the GM FFB as the Main Power source for the FFB because the Relative and or In Car FFB Master are set very Low. just depends on which part of the FFB system is deemed most important by Tweeker... JMT.

poirqc
22-02-2016, 12:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GQCZgCNw8&index=8&list=LLC8nygV2cxirmiTbS0_qHSA



Have any of you watched this entire Video??? There is Great information in this Video... It explains alot about the Tire Physics that go into Creating a tire Model for a Sim Racing Game... Pay close attention at the 30min mark where he talks about Divergence... Its Really Great information.... I Know tenenbaum and Poirqc will love this Video!!!

Edit: tenenbaum/ Poirq / Jack Spade I have a Special interest to know what you think about what is said at the 30min mark regarding Divergence.

It is indeed a great video. Sadly, i never took the time to watch it all. I won't comment it because, frankly, it's out of my league! :)

I can, however, recommend it to anyone who'se interrested in the subject because it's very well explained! I'll have a look at it again for sure.

Haiden
22-02-2016, 12:14
By now we all know that since consoles do not have the Control Panel, the final force comes from the Global FFB Master (aka Control Panel Master Gain Settings) - talking Thrustmaster here.
But I wonder what about the other settings? You have additionally Detailed Gain Settings (Constant, Periodic, Spring and Damper). I really wonder how much of those settings change the experience between PC vs Console.

I think it can make a big difference, if you change them from default. I'm not on PC, but changing the SPr setting to 50 on my wheel (default was 100), makes a huge difference in a wheel strength. I've also set the Dri to 3, which is a setting that lightens the wheel and provides a little more fidelity. As far as I know, there's no way to replicate that function on non Fanatec wheels or without the additional parameters in an external driver control panel.


The GM FFB is veryTweek dependent at this point... depending on which part of the FFB system you choose to get the FFB power the GM FFB has to be set accordingly to compensate.

in My case i choose to get the FFB power from the Relative/In Car FFB system and use the GM FFB as a Filler for at the wheel FFB strength only.... While others use the GM FFB as the Main Piwer source for the FFB because the Relative and or In Car FFB Master are set very Low. just depends on which part of the FFB system is deemed most important by Tweeker... JMT.

Exactly! Which is why I think the blanket statement/rule that FF=100 is bad is misleading, because... One, it's only bad if you're not attenuating the strength elsewhere. And two, it's also wheel dependent.